Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • Sandra James on Psalms 72
    I have a question. I am doing my best to learn more about the sabbath day and what we are to do and not do on that day. In the bible it says the 7th day (Saturday) is the Sabbath. So My question is this, Why do most of the world use Sunday, the first day of the week for the Sabbath? I need help with this one, because I truly want to keep the commandments of the Lord. Can someone please explain?
  • D.J. - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Sandra,

    Concerning the 7th Day.

    Most people use Sunday because they can't shake customs and traditions.

    You are following the Sabbath day requirement because you feel compelled to.

    The 7th day was established for ALL of mankind back on the 7th Day of Creation (Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Exodus 34:21, etc. etc.) and was never abolished.

    (Mark 2:27-28) "And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath."

    If we believe in the Father and His only begotten Son, then we have Christ in us every day, not just one day per week. This new understanding is an enhancement of the 7th day, not the abolishing of it. It was made to last forever.

    This is a day that God BLESSED and SANCTIFIED! Christ always honored the Sabbath. The Apostles kept the Sabbath after the death of Christ; look at Acts 13:14, 27, 42, 44, Acts 16:13, etc.

    Pentecost is a holy SABBATH day; i.e. a day of rest.

    In Acts 17:2 and Acts 18:4, Paul is continually feeding the people Scripture on the SABBATH.

    Christ never abolished the Sabbath.

    God never said anything concerning that fact, and if He wanted that day changed, He would have made it abundantly clear.

    Have you considered looking at the Dead Sea Scrolls?

    The Book of Enoch, in particular, reveals a 364 day solar priestly calendar.

    52 (weeks) x 7 = 364

    The calendar begins after the Spring Equinox.

    Look at the first book of Enoch; specifically, ch. 72, and ch. 82 (column 27) are words concerning the ancient solar calendar.
  • GTMok - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Hi Sandra,

    The best possible way to have a better understanding about which day is the right one and why most people go to church on Sunday, is to go back to the book of Daniel. Understand the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, Rome and how the activities of the "little horn" that has a mouth and eyes and speaking blasphemy against the Most High.

    What is blasphemy? Mark 2:7 "Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?"

    The little horn according to Daniel 7:25 - "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

    According to Exodus 20, the 4 commandment "Remember to keep the seventh day holy..." Exodus 20:8-11. The commandment has not changed, even Paul solidifies the same in the new testament, "we establish the law" Romans 3:31.

    The little horn has usurped the prerogatives of God and in doing so he established his day, Sunday, as the day of his authority. The last day deception will be about the day of worship. Those who love God, & His law, will choose Saturday Sabbath as the day of His authority, but those who choose the devil's representative here on earth (the anti Christ) will choose Sunday sabbath (as they call it) as the day of his authority. It all boils down to in whom we rest (sabatismos), come what may. Even at the risk of losing our lives we trust the One who is able to resurrect us from death, Matthew 10:39
  • Chris - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Romans 3:31 is a great verse but looking at what Paul said earlier, i.e. "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference" (3:20-22).

    A few things here: Paul was speaking to all there (both Jew & Gentile converts) yet some stumbled on this matter, particularly from Jewry who were once under the Law & were circumcised, which marked them as God's chosen. To those still applying the Law to their lives & putting themselves under it, are obliged to keep all the Law (Galatians 5:3). And "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." (James 2:10). But the Law was given to Israel, not only as God's Standard of living for them, but to show them that they couldn't keep the Law, rather they fell far short of it. Hence, each year animal sacrifice was made to cover those sins. But after Jesus' death & resurrection, those who come by faith to Him are no longer bound to the Law, as God's Gift to us was the only One to have fully kept (& fulfilled) its Holy demands.

    So Paul makes a clear distinction: either you keep the whole Law & by it you will be judged: "as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" (Romans 2:12), or you take hold of God's Righteousness which comes by faith in Christ. There's no possibility of fusing the two together for they oppose each other. "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4). So the observance of the Sabbath day was a hallmark of Israel & they faithfully observed it. To make the Sabbath observance mandatory now means that we are no longer in the liberty of Christ but in bondage (Galatians 5:1).
  • Brother dan - in Reply on Psalms 72
    I agree we are not under obligation of the old jewish traditional laws of the old testament like the various sabbath feasts, sacrifices and rituals etc. But it is a gigantic stretch of the imagination to apply this also to cancel the 4th commandment. Only Jesus or God can cancel one of the commandments. The commandments were written in stone, and will stand forever. God did not put the old Jewish ceremonial laws in stone - big difference.

    God's law is the 10 commandments.

    Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

    17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

    Jesus observed the Saturday sabbath while here on earth. Yes, he performed many things to heal and help others on the Sabbath. In doing so he was teaching all of us that we are to help others on the sabbath. When Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath he instructed that certain things could be performed on this day. He DID NOT say to his accusers that the sabbath is no longer effective. To the contrary, he acknowledged it!

    Mark 2: 27-28 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. Why would Jesus say that he is Lord of the Sabbath if there is no longer a Sabbath?

    I'm not willing to follow the crowd today - that think there are only 9 commandments.

    Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    God Bless.
  • Chris - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Page 2.

    The Old Covenant encompassed the Whole Law completely, which Jesus fulfilled (both in obedience & according to the prophecies about Him). For us to now claim obedience to the Old Covenant & also receive the blessings of the New just cannot work: we're either depending on obedience to the Law to save us, therefore nullifying & despising Christ's Cross, or we give no heed to the old time-bound Law & put our faith in the glorious Work at the Cross, declaring that the Law (indeed) kills, but the Spirit gives Life: "not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious,which glory was to be DONE AWAY: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

    For me, it's not "a gigantic stretch of the imagination to apply this also to cancel the 4th commandment". I 'cancel' out not only the fourth but also the other nine: laws given ONLY to the Jews only for a time & purpose. But for all, both Jew & Gentile, who come under the shadow of the Cross, we attain unto a higher 'set of laws': "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2. And as we read in the Gospels, when Jesus spoke of the type of obedience that God requires, it always went well beyond the limits of the Ten Commandments. Hence, keeping the Sabbath holy went beyond its appointed day & requirements, it pointed to the perfect rest both believing Jew & Gentile could enjoy IN CHRIST, & not in the regulated Law. If one believes that it's necessary to strictly maintain the Sabbath of old, then we demonstrate a defective understanding of the whole Plan of God in sending us His Son & do despite to the Scriptures & that which was revealed to His servant, the apostle Paul.

    Every blessing.
  • Brother dan - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Brother Chris,

    I will disagree with much of your stated understanding of scripture, and your comment that you "not only would cancel the 4th commandment, but you would cancel all 10 commandments.

    I will let Jesus answer the issue in regard to the 10 commandments:

    Mathew 23:36-40 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Below Jesus himself answers the question of canceling the Law.

    Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

    17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

    If Jesus was going cancel the law and the commandments he would have said as much, as he had many chances to do so as stated above in these scriptures.
  • Chris - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Page 2.

    So in Luke 16:17 & Matthew 5:17, Jesus was making it clear that the Law could never fail - what God had given stands true & firm in its purity & application for every life for every age. And indeed, Jesus' coming was to fulfil that Law (& the prophecies about Him). I see no problem here as all that He said did happen. Then back to my question: why then did Jesus have to die? Could not that Perfect Law have saved us, with maybe a touch of extra grace from God to carry us over the line? After all, we do love God with all our hearts & want to observe all that He has directed us to do; we just need a little more of His understanding & resulting pardon to give us the needed assurance & comfort. But if we have His pardon based only on His Son's death, what then could that Law given do for us? Could it have given us "Life"? No, it only brought condemnation & death. "Is the Law then against the Promises of God"? No, "for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." Galatians 3:21.

    As believers, saved by grace through faith, we can never resort to the Law, whether for some merit or to add to the saving work of Christ on the Cross. Jesus' death & resurrection cancelled out any claims or adherence to the Law, for "the Law is not of faith". Galatians 3:12. Yes, the Law is good & perfect, but "the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did". And that hope was only Jesus Who was "made a surety of a better testament."
  • Richard - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Hello Chris. I very much enjoy reading yours posts and agree. Jesus Christ truly is the only way. I was just conversing with a man the other night on this matter. As he seemed content we need to follow not just the Ten Commandments but all of the 613 Jewish laws. I posted, as brother Dan did, Matthew 22:36-40. Brother Dan you have Matthew 23 but you quoted the passages, from 22, perfectly. Just to note. As Jesus stated "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Which I believe are the most important things we should be focusing on which is Love. Of God, Christ, and one another. I also posted this passage: Galatians 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." This being written by Paul that of the fruit from the Holy Spirit, we receive, and flourish in, against such there is no law.

    I also stated knowing the Ten Commandments by heart. It seems, after being saved by the Lord, that all these things are no longer a burden at all to follow. It seems to comes naturally from a power not of my own. All of the 613 Jewish laws? Now there is a problem. As it says people should be stoned to death and burned at the stake. Along with many other things I know the Lord does not condone.

    Hopefully, my brothers, we can all just help one another through these peaceful conversations. We all need Jesus Christ as no one cometh unto the Father but by Him. John 14:6. God Bless
  • Chris - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Hi Richard. Thank you for what you've shared. The point I'm making is that the believer in Christ has to get away from resorting to the Ten Commandments: they're part of the Law given to Israel & served only to show them how to live & how far short they fell from obeying them. This ought to have compelled them to not rely on that yearly sacrifice for sins with all the other sacrifices, the Scape Goat & many feasts & ceremonies, but to look beyond to the time when God would offer His Own Sacrifice, once & for all, that could only satisfy God & be the means of a final perfect redemption for mankind. What Israel performed back then was a picture of what would come in the future. They should have heeded the prophetical writings directing them to a future Human Sacrifice that would fully deal with their sins rather than looking for a nation-conquering Messiah. So the Son of God, the Sacrifice of God came, but they rejected Him putting Him to death as He failed (in their reckoning) to give them victory over Rome. Yet He brought them much needed spiritual victory which they rejected.

    The Ten Commandments were never intended to be a list to be ticked through in the margin. To do that could make us, or a new believer, smug & satisfied that we are in right standing with God. Didn't the rich young ruler also believe that he had 'made it'? (Mark 10:17-22). Jesus virtually told him that he failed in the very first commandment. The Law was a revelation of God's Standard for His people & to alert them to their incapability to wholly maintain that Standard. Where does that leave us now if we still resort to it when our Saviour has fulfilled all its demands, nailing it to the Cross, thereby giving all those who come in faith in the shed Blood, forgiveness & liberty only through Him? Do we not do despite to His Love & His Gift, to cleave to that which only revealed the sin in us thus giving us separation from God & eternal death?
  • Richard - in Reply on Psalms 72
    I very much agree with what you are portraying brother. What I feel is that the Ten Commandments are good a, simple, guideline for us. Of coarse we have all already sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23. Jesus Christ is our one and only saviour sent by our Father. Even though we will still probably all make mistakes it seems good to me to have some good guidelines to at least go by in the evil world we live in. To make our Father happy as surely none of them are bad things or that we can't easily fulfill by just using a bit of self control. Still as I can say a parable where one would have to choose between disobeying a Commandment or following the Will of God. How we need the Holy Spirit gifted to us as our teacher. Just as you said though. Our Fathers love is so great in that He has already given the perfect sacrifice for all sins. Also as said it is all of a power not of my own. Something else that makes our Father happy is producing good fruit of the Holy Spirit. As I'm sure there are much better people in the world, than me, that have done many more good things. I take no credit for anything good I've ever done. I am forever thankful. Glory be to our Father.

    As praying for everyone feels right. The people who do right and them that do wrong. As the Lord has taught me to love all. As in Luke 6:35 :"for He(our Father) is kind unto the unthankful and the evil." Praise the Lord Jesus Christ and our Perfect Father! God Bless you brother.
  • Chris - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Thank you for sharing that Richard. I do agree that the Ten Commandments "are a good & a simple guideline for us" & I think, probably for a new believer who is learning about God & His general requirements, they do give some help & boundaries to work in.

    But how do those Commandments apply to a Spirit filled believer who is subjected to all types of intrusions into his life that demand a decision or a choice that is not covered in the Decalogue. We could give many examples of this, but to give a couple: a brother is brought into a difficult frustrating situation & his immediate response is to utter an expletive in disgust. Does the Decalogue cover this sin? If the brother relied on it for identifying sin(s), then he could comfort himself that that behaviour is fine before God since it isn't mentioned. But if he is troubled by that outburst & repents, what warrant does he appeal to for his act of contrition? There are some believers that are amongst us who think nothing at all to use 'flowery language'.

    Or, going to the grocery store, seeing some grapes on sale at a good price, but are they sweet? Why not try a couple & then make a purchase. After all this is not stealing as the Decalogue warns about stealing - it's only tasting a couple of grapes & surely that can't be stealing. Again, I've seen believers who think nothing about doing this - Why? - because it's not seen as stealing as per the Commandment. Why don't I do it? My warrant for not doing so is not found in the Decalogue.

    The above examples might appear strange, but I think, relevant for those appealing to the Ten Commandments as a set of Laws to abide by. It was necessary for Israel, including the myriad of other laws that were given them, but for those who have the indwelling Spirit, of what significance can they now hold? Aren't the Words of the Spirit to our hearts, His convicting, His directing, His pleading, of greater worth than those Laws engraven in stone that only led to death & not Life?
  • Richard - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Great reply brother. I don't find your examples strange at all. They are perfect. Just as you stated that there are countless things that go on in our everyday lives. That the Ten Commandments may not shed light on. As bringing up examples or "parables", just as Jesus did, helps people understand which way is the right way. It truly is a help to other people that may not understand things in the Bible.

    One thing I wanted to share with you is last night it came to me to check a couple passages and put them to the Ten Commandments. In Mark 7:21-23 where Jesus is teaching about evil thoughts from within that "defile a person". The other is Galatians 5:19-23 where Paul states of the "works of the flesh" and "fruit if the Holy Spirit". With these two lists you can match up all the Ten Commandments. The seven of things to veer away from and the three things that God wants us to do. Just looking at those two list there is much more detailed information of things to repent from and things to seek after or focus on. Like you stated about many examples, there still are more things than just those written. Also just another guideline, to help us, from the Lord.

    It is so true that we will be faced with things, in this life, that no person has spoken of. Or is written about. It is also true that not everyone is to be Blessed to receive the Holy Spirit in this life. As the Comforter and teacher for us from the Lord. I still believe God to be in all of us as He knows everything about everyone. It is truly a great treasure, and gift, to have the Spirit of Christ reside in us. A wonderful teaching, as all are, of Jesus Christ is Luke 6:27-38. Also the simple but "golden" rule of "Do unto others as you would want them to do to you."

    Hope you have a great weekend Chris. God Bless my brother.
  • We don39t need the 10 Commandments - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Chris,

    The Law was never set up to be followed by man perfectly. That is why atonement (through blood sacrifice) was introduced with and as a part of the Law.

    The Law was established as guidelines for proper worship and proper living.

    Paul taught in the Synagogues on the Sabbath well after Christ had died.

    Peter observed Old Testament Health Laws well after Christ died.

    Why would they still be following those Old Testament Laws if ALL LAW was fulfilled through the Grace of Jesus which was based upon His death on the cross?

    Jesus is the only Person to have fulfilled ALL the requirements of the Law while He walked upon the earth.

    The rest of us cannot!

    The 10 Commandments, including the 4th Commandment, were made for man, "for all time."

    Wouldn't that include the present time period?
  • Dibro - in Reply on Psalms 72
    The Ten Commandments apply today. The (just) are free from their condemnation. (2nd death)

    God's (Moral Law) make the arrest

    The Gospel sets us free.

    Matthew 10:14 (example) Many trample the pearl of grace. Until they see God as a righteous judge,

    For them Gods law commands their attention.

    Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known & come to light.

    Have you ever lied? hated? Lusted? Stole anything? Had sex out side of marriage. Wild imaginations?

    What do you call someone who lies? What do you call someone who steals? What is someone called who uses Gods name as a cuss word?

    Let's be legalistic. An empty stomach lust for food. Is that sin? Of course not. But

    Jesus said whoever looks at another with lust (seizing them with wild imaginations) has already committed adultery with that person in their heart. Forget others, You're in big trouble.

    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, & unbelieving, & the abominable, & murderers, & whoremongers, & sorcerers,& idolaters, and ((all liars)) shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Now back to court....

    Telling an honest judge in a court of law you're sorry won't set you free

    and you can bet it won't work when we're summoned to stand the living God either.

    The wage for our sin must be paid. ((Death))

    The bible speaks of only two types of people.

    The just and the unjust.

    At our judgment reward will be given & taken away.

    But God will throw the book at the unjust. (second death)

    1 Cor. 15:1-4 Salvation in a nutshell

    Acts 17:30-31 God calls all people to repent (turn from unbelief) & warns Christ will (Judge) the world!

    Praise God earth is not home of those justified by the finished work of the cross!

    The "Just" have been justified by the blood of the Lamb. We have confidence!

    1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have ((boldness)) in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world!
  • D.J. - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Dibro,

    Right on!

    Well presented.

    The 10 Commandments are still fully in force.
  • Adam - in Reply on Psalms 72
    I can tell you've been watching Ray Comfort. What a bold evangelist for Christ.
  • Brother dan - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Brother Chris,

    You are stating that Jesus did not speak about the cancelation of the Law because of his upcoming death and resurrection.

    Yes he did speak about the Law, and Jesus knew that he was going to die for our sins and complete the plan and work of God, but he did not cancel the Law. On the contrary, he reinforced the law as stated by Christ below.

    Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

    Jesus says "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." To me, this is the key that Jesus wants us to live according to God's law 10 Commandments. Until heaven and earth pass......this has not happened Yet, and until it happens the Law remains.....as stated by Jesus.

    I believe that the Law/Ten Commandments provides us with the roadmap to live a good life here on earth, while also preparing us for God's great plan for us in the second life which will be for eternity.

    Christ died on the cross for the worlds sins. His death provides the ransom for our sins. He became the new and only mediator between God and each of us. This is the "Good News".

    When we live according to God's plan for us and we fall short/sin, (as each of us will) we now have Jesus Christ to confide in, and through Jesus Christ we can now receive forgiveness of our sins from God.

    Good Bless.
  • Chris - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Page 2.

    The Law was given for a time & purpose - Jesus, by His coming & sacrifice, concluded (fulfilled) that 'time & purpose' thereby relieving us (read: Jews) from the bindings of the Law which only brought death. He said: "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10b. Surely this abundant life includes both the release from the burden of guilt & sin and also the bindings & burdens of the Law which proved that sin & only brought death.

    And lest you feel that my belief & stance is antinomian, please don't, as we haven't yet come to the discussion on Romans 8:2. And this I see as the key verse, along with much of Paul's writings on the weakness & finality of the Law in view of Christ's worth; and this has a direct bearing on believers who need to be released from the "weakness" of the Law to the "Power" of the Law that comes from & through the Holy Spirit. I would look forward to this discussion, if you wish to proceed. The Lord be with you (& us) in our meditations on our Saviour's great Sacrifice & spiritual freedom we can enjoy in Him.
  • Chris - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Page 1.

    Bro. Dan. I don't think that we're making much headway with this discussion. Looking at Matthew 5:17-19 (as you quoted): Indeed, Jesus came to fulfil the Law & the Prophets, that which was given to Israel & the prophecies about Himself. And true, "Heaven & Earth haven't passed away as yet". Yet, we continue to dwell on something that has already happened: that Jesus came in fulfilment of the prophecies & that He, and He alone, had fulfilled the very minutiae of the Law. So, in my understanding, the Law which was given by God for Israel's spiritual & societal well-being could not be kept fully by them but only showed them their constant, perpetual need for repentance & sacrifice. Jesus came of course, to give His Life for them (& us) as the only true & effective Sacrifice, and also to speak about Kingdom Life & what the full true meaning of God's Laws were, in comparison to what they performed or what the religious leaders taught. We see some of this from verse 20 onwards & elsewhere in His discourses.

    So, if the Law was still current in the time of Christ (as it was indeed), at what time would it then be "fulfilled"? The Greek for this is: Genetai, meaning: 'happen or accomplished'. Did the given Law & Prophetical writings about Jesus find their finality at the appearing of Christ, or, as you may be suggesting, that there is yet a future time when (i.e. at the passing away of Heaven & Earth) the validity & requirements of the Law would eventually conclude? It is my belief that Jesus used that as an expression to signify the importance of the Law & its perpetual purity: this cannot change. But what changes is that by the coming of Jesus at the appointed time, He also brought about the fulfilment of that Law (in Himself - by Himself), so that mankind (Jew & Gentile) should have no more recourse to the Law (that only brought knowledge of sin & death - not life), but resorting to the Fulfiller of that Law & our cleaving to Him in love & obedience.
  • Brother dan - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Brother Chris,

    At this point, you stated that you and I may not be making much headway in our discussion regarding the keeping of the 10 Commandments. I believe our discussion may still be beneficial to us, in ways that we may not realize at the moment. Also, it is possible others on this site may benefit from our discussion regarding this important issue.

    I realize there is a large following of people/churches including antinomians, that attribute some of the apostle Paul's teachings to lessening or even more drastically eliminating the need to follow the 10 Commandments.

    I hold the apostle Paul, as well as all of the other apostles that where chosen by Jesus in high esteem, but we should also acknowledge they were humans with the same weakness's as we have. Jesus is Perfect, and if there is a question such as we are discussing regarding the 10 Commandments, I will put my trust in following what Jesus said regarding this issue.

    John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

    John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

    If believe, if we argue against keeping the commandments we argue with Jesus, I'm not willing to do that...ever.

    God Bless
  • Chris - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Thank you again Bro. Dan for your comments. And I agree that this discussion is not only beneficial to us & others but also very important in how we see ourselves before God & how God looks at us in Christ. In my understanding of the Scriptures, the Law & the Grace of God through His Son are clearly opposed to each other: "for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Galatians 2:21. That is, the given Law of old could never make a person righteous before God, thus any obedience to it to justify our standing or even to 'please' God in our efforts or satisfy our consciences, will always fail.

    Rather than rehash earlier presentations of my understanding, if I might direct you to a Site that I feel would more fully explain what I'm trying to write here in such a small space. As well, I would hope that the others (including Richard, Dibro & We don't need the 10 Commandments) who kindly offered their views would also take time to go through it. I thank them also for submitting their thoughts on this matter & apologize for not replying to each one. I know it's better etiquette to respond from one's heart & to each one who has taken the trouble to write, but I feel this Site will explain the matter more fully & make this already long thread on KJBO not more cumbersome.

    If Trent would allow my submitting this external Site, I would appreciate it.

    gci dot org/articles/should Christians keep the law of moses what about the ten commandments

    (you may need to reinsert these details in their Search Box).

    Blessings to you brother & to the other dear ones.
  • Chris - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Page 1.

    Bro. Dan. I understand what you're saying & it is true that Jesus did not speak about the cancellation of the given Law because of His (future) death & resurrection. The Law given then, as it is now, "is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:12.

    The problem with properly arguing such an important matter is that all Scripture has to be considered in its proper manner & not a dependence on just a few portions. Had the matter ended with Jesus' Words in the Gospels, then we would indeed be content with that & both Jew & Gentile converts would maintain strict observance of the Law & somehow after Christ's death, still rigidly attend to both it & Christ's Sacrifice as equally necessary to be acceptable to God. Is this how you understand the Scripture? Do you make any differentiation between the purpose of the Law & the need of God's Grace through His Son? If we had only the O.T. & the Gospels to show us how to live properly under the Law, then that is how we would be judged; and by all accounts, we would fail.

    Since you quote solely from the Gospels to present your position, considering them is necessary. As stated earlier, Jesus did not speak about the annulling of the Law in the future but He did direct his hearers to what was correct & appropriate for that time. The Jews, still under the Law, were not obeying it as God purposed; Jesus had to give them the proper meaning, viz, the condition of the heart, relationship to non-Jews, money, divorce, Sabbath, justice, etc. etc. Jesus only spoke clearly to His disciples of his eventual sacrificial death, that which they hardly believed & accepted (Matthew 16:20-22), how much less trying to get them to understand the matter we are discussing now (of the New Covenant resulting from His Sacrifice); though He did refer to it in the Upper Room (Luke 22:20).
  • Chris - in Reply on Psalms 72
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    Thank you for your response, Bro. Dan. So, as I gather, you do not make a distinction between the Old & New Covenants (i.e. the Law that was given & required of men (Jews) pre-Cross and what was accomplished & hence required of men (Jew & Gentile) post-Cross). You have well quoted Jesus' words & acts pertaining to the validity & obedience to the given Law and I have absolutely no problem in what He said & how you understand & apply it. The problem arises when the Cross comes to bear upon us now. The Scriptures you've shared have bearing on the Old Covenant, that which the Jews were under & Jesus clearly spoke about its validity.

    Then the crucifixion took place which was much more than a payment of a penalty for our sins & a substitutionary sacrifice: it also made null & void the given Law, the whole Law, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:14). Some suggest that this verse doesn't apply to the Ten Commandments but only to the ceremonial laws. They believe that those of us, who supposedly consider the commandments as of no consequence, are in error, but are in fact in error themselves.

    "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:12. There was nothing wrong or defective in the given Laws: they were simply given for a time awaiting the better covenant: "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." (Hebrews 8:6,7).
  • Bendito Palavra - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Somebody should have told Jesus all this before he met with the disciples in John chapter 20. ()
  • Stanjett - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Saturday is the sabbath. Sunday is the Lords day. Jesus rose on a Sunday, why we use that day. Jews and others still use Saturday. All though, we should worship Him everyday.
  • Jason - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Hi Sandra,

    This is a quick summary for New Testament Christians who want clarifications of the "Lord's Day" (Sunday) vs the Old Testament "Sabbath" (Saturday).

    The Sabbath was a ceremonial day given to Old Testament Jews to keep. New Testament Christians (Jews and Gentiles) do not follow the old carnal, beggarly, religion of the Jews because the fulfillment of those things are in Christ. This is the same reason Christians do not worship in a Temple made with hands but instead worship the Lord in their hearts. (Romans 14:1-23; 2 Cor 3:6-18; Galatians 4:1-31; Colossians 2:14-17).

    The answer to this question (and all others) are in the KJV Bible. There is a false religion that promotes Sabbath Worship. They state that Sunday Worship is "The Mark of the Beast", but they do not know their Bible and reject what the New Testament states about the Sabbath and about the Lord's Day. Try my words and all others with God's Word. (Romans 3:4)

    Hebrews is a book of the Bible that exalts Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of the Old Testament legal systems. Jesus also teaches us throughout the Gospels that the thousands of rules in the Old Testament are kept with two primary Laws which are basically: "Love God" and "Love Your Neighbor" (Mark 12:30-36). Keeping these two rules in Christ fulfill the whole law. Further detail of how to do this is throughout Scripture, but no man can keep these laws perfectly, that's why we need Christ.

    Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles), taught us to come together regularly and to keep the "Lord's Day" (the day Christ arose from the dead). This is the first day of the week. Christians have met throughout the New Testament and throughout History on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. Our Sabbath/Rest is in Christ, He has fulfilled the Old Testament laws which we and no other man can. (Heb; Acts 20:7; I Cor 16:1-2; Revelation 1:10)

    Christians come together on Sunday to keep the New Testament Doctrine not to keep the Old Testament Ceremonial Religion given to the Jews.
  • Bendito Palavra - in Reply on Psalms 72
    The best reason to worship on Sunday is to celebrate Jesus rising from the dead on the first day of the week (Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20).

    It is not a requirement to honor a particular time of worship because Jesus said, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:20).

    Colossians 2:16-17

    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

    Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Galatians 5 declares our liberty in Christ, for if we are justified by law we are fallen from grace. Ironically, the Pharisees worked so hard to maintain the Sabbath that it became oppressive. Many still work to establish their own righteousness, not submitting to the righteousness of God (only found in Christ Jesus) Romans 10.

    Hebrews 4 is an excellent lesson on rest for today.
  • Adam - in Reply on Psalms 72
    Hi Sandra,

    This is a common question- I've seen several comment threads about it before and there's one now on this site:

    Link

    I'm sure there are other perspectives, but this shows at least one of them.


 

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