It is very clear that Revelation 21 takes place after Jesus' 1,000 year reign on earth with man.
Revelation 21 is the Father God bringing the New Jerusalem from heaven to place it on earth.
At this time there will be nothing left but spirit beings. Those who were tossed in the lake of fire, and those found worthy to dwell in the Kingdom.
Every single event regarding humans will take place on earth. When the Great Tribulation starts, we will be on earth. The only place of safety will be The Wilderness, which the Lord will prepare for those found worthy.
Tribulation will be 3 and a half years. Matthew 24:29 immediately after the tribulation is when the Lord will return to gather his people.
The Jews will be kept safe from harm during the last 3-1/2 years of the Tribulation Period, known as The Great Tribulation. They are told that when they see the abomination of desolation setting up in their temple, to flee. This will be at the mid-point of the 7-year period. No harm will come to them. The church will not be on the earth at this time. The ones who are told to flee are the Jews. God knows that at this time, there are 144,000 Jews who are sealed by God and He is going to protect them. Many believe that they will flee into the Rock City of Petra.
I see nothing in scripture that tells me that the church will be here or what role the church will have during this 7-year tribulation period. I read about the events of the Tribulation from Revelation Chapter 4 through Chapter 19, and not one place in those chapters is the church mentioned. After Revelation Chapter 3, there is no mention of the church. But when I get to Chapter 19, it seems to me that in Chapter 19 of Revelation, the church is in heaven at a wedding that is taking place while the tribulation is still happening on the earth and before Christ comes back at His second coming. Who are these people at this wedding? Who's getting married? Who are the ones in Chapter 19 who are clothed in white, the garments of a bride? Whoever they are, they will be the ones coming back with Christ at His second coming. I believe it is the church. At least, this is what I see. Please share your thoughts on this.
Matthew 19:27-28 The Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. (How will the saints judge the 12 tribes? Because there will still be flesh and blood beings on earth when the Lord returns).
Revelation 21:1-3 (this is the Father coming down with New Jerusalem) John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:10 John was shown the great city, the holy Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God.
Revelation 6:1-8; 12-17 Takes place during the tribulation on earth, but also speaks of Jesus AFTER the tribulation and the wrath he will bring on earth. (Reference Isaiah 2:10 and Isaiah speaks of this event in Revelation 6)
Revelation 7:1-4. 9; 13-14 the Lord will seal his servants in their foreheads. 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel. He will also save a "great multitude" which no man could number of "all" nations. (These are the people who survived the Great Tribulation, some who will have gotten converted during the tribulation)
Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation the Lord returns.
Revelation 19:11-14;19-21 Heaven will open, Jesus will show up on a white horse. He will judge and make war.
I know that's a lot. I hope that you will read through the scriptures on your own time.
But know this, there will only be a 3 and a half year actual tribulation period, and anyone who is alive during that time will have to try and survive it, unless they are in the place of safety on earth which the Lord will have reserved for his people...and that place is the Wilderness over in Jerusalem.
The Church is never in "heaven" per se at the wedding ceremony. Everything takes place on earth. The Lord will dwell in Jerusalem when he returns.
Acts 1:6-12 The angel said the Lord will return in like manner.(Notice the Lord was on the Mt. of Olives when he left earth)
Zechariah 14:1-5 (Read the entire chapter) Notice verse 5 His feet shall stand that day upon the Mt. of Olives which is before Jerusalem on the east. (The entire chapter of Zechariah 14 takes place while the Lord is dwelling on earth)
Zechariah 14:9-11 Lord shall be king over all the earth.
Zechariah 14:16-19 The Feast of Tabernacles will be held in Jerusalem each year where Jesus will be dwelling.
Zechariah 8:1-8 Lord returns to Zion and dwells in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem will be called City of Truth. He will bring his people to Jerusalem to be his people and he their God. (This has not taken place yet; it's all future)
Isaiah 66:15-18;19-20;23-24 All flesh will come worship him from one new moon to another, one Sabbath to another. People who are in the lake of fire will not have their fire quenched. (this is all future)
Revelation 20:1-3 The Angel comes to bound Satan 1,000yrs. (This is the First resurrection) These saints will reign with Christ 1,000yrs.
I Thessalonins 3:13-17 The Lord coming with all his saints in the clouds. See Daniel 7
Daniel 7:1-3;13-14; (verse 13 remember the Lord said he's coming back in the clouds?)
Daniel 7:7-18;27 (verse 27 under the heaven is where Jesus' Kingdom will be)
Luke 1:26-27;30-33 (What did the angel tell Mary? Read verse 30-33.) That God promised DAvid someone would come through his lineage and sit on the throne of David. (Jesus will come to earth to sit on David's throne.)
Psalm 123:11-16 The Lord swore in truth to David he will sit upon David's throne. (Who are his children? the Saints).
The people mentioned in Matthew 24:29 to the end of the chapter that Christ is going to gather are Jews, not the church. The word "Tribes" in Verse 30 is very important. That tells us that we are talking about Jewish people. It is a Jewish term. All the tribes of the earth shall mourn. And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. All the tribes! Again, that would be Jews.
In Revelation Chapter 1 Verse 7, it tells us that every eye will see Him, even those who have pierced Him. Zechariah 12:10 is a prophecy that the Jews hold to, only they don't understand its application. It says that when Messiah comes, they will look upon Him whom they have pierced.
So at this time when Christ comes, at His second coming, the Jews who are left on the earth, they are going to mourn, and they are going to look and go "Oh no, we crucified our Messiah, and here He is!" The Jews are going to recognize Him.
Verse 31 also uses a keyword, and that is the word "elect." It tells us that when Christ does come, He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. I'll share some technical information with you to show you how good this passage really is:
He is going to send His angels out with a great sound of a Shofar. It's a ram's horn. In the Greek text, the word "sound" is in brackets, which means it has been added to the text by some unseen person who doesn't understand the fact that the word "great" modifies the trumpet. It is called a great Shofar.
The prophecy is in Isaiah Chapter 27 Verses 12 and 13. It says the great Shofar will blow, and the Lord will gather His people (The Jews) from the four corners of the earth. So that is very important because that's also a prophecy that the Jews looked for. It says He is going to gather them together, His elect, that would be the Jews, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, north, south, east, and west.
Jesse, I'm not sure what part of my comment you disagree with, but this initially was about Revelations 21 and my saying it takes place after the Lord's 1,000 year reign on earth. After his reign the Father will come down bringing New Jerusalem with him. Basically no man will ever go to the 3rd heaven where the Father, Son and holy angels dwell currently. God's desire is to dwell with man on earth stationed in Jerusalem. Heaven will be on earth. At no time will man ascend to the 3rd heaven to dwell while others are left behind.
I have scriptures to support my claim but it would take 5 boxes or more to explain. :-P
Lastly, I agree with a lot of what you are saying but not all. I think our disagreement is more of a timing issue than anything else. I completely respect your views and I know we can't agree on everything. Wouldn't that be nice if every believer agreed on every word of scripture? We (The Church) would not be in such a mess that we are in today if we all agreed with everything. But I'm sure we both would agree that that's never going to happen as long as we live in these fleshly bodies!
Thank you so much for your reply. And thank you for sharing your understanding with me.
This is known as the 70th week of Daniel, a week being a seven-year period. I don't know how to get 3-1/2 years out of a week? The 70th week of Daniel is divided into four sections: Pains of Birth (The first 3-1/2 years), the Pivotal Point (Mid-Point of the Tribulation), Perils of tribulation (The last 3-1/2 years known as the Great Tribulation), and then the promise of His Coming (The Second Coming of Christ).
You say that the actual tribulation begins as soon as the man of sin moves from Rome and sits in the temple, and if you are referring to what the Bible calls "The Great Tribulation" then I agree. I am curious as to how you know for sure this man comes from Rome?
If no man will ever go to the 3rd heaven where the Father, Son, and holy angels currently dwell, where is Paul the apostle at right now? Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. If the Lord is in the 3rd heaven and Paul is present with the Lord, where is Paul? Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. Could that have been Paul himself? And wasn't John caught up to the 3rd heaven? John got to see the throne in heaven and the one sitting on it.
I do agree that there will be some who will survive the Great Tribulation, the last 3-1/2 years. However, I think it will be very few, not great multitudes. I do thank you for sending me all these scriptures. Please know that I have read all these before and I am familiar with them. They are not new to me.
How do I know a man from Rome will sit in the temple? The roman empire has to fall and rise 10 times. Today we are in the 10th time and they're preparing to rise again. The roman head is now called the EU.
This is all Revelation 13:1-7 prophecy and Daniel 7 and 8 prophecies. It's a lot to go into and can be confusing. But during the tribulation there has to be a religious ruler and a political ruler.
Sorry we've written novels on here. But it was good talking with you about the Word. Yes, we differ on some things. But hopefully nothing that will get anyone cut off. The basics are keeping The Lord's 10 Commandments and statutes, having faith in Jesus Christ and that should get a person's foot in the door. Working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Strive to make it in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Without a shadow of a doubt, according to scriptures, no man (human) who has ever lived is in heaven right now except Jesus Christ himself.
And the Lord isn't going to return until immediately the Great Tribulation.
The only place of safety during the Great Tribulation for 3 1/2 years will be in the Wilderness...which the Lord will make sure his people get there safely just like he did in the days of old with the Children of Israel.
Mishael, I just realized you're speaking of what I've said in regards to Revelation 21. I've been conversing with Jesse so much on here, I can't remember how it got started.
But again, I don't believe I'm scrambled on Revelation 21. It's pretty cut and dry the end of the Book.
Mishael, no offense taken at all. Not that my cup is so full that I have no room to learn, but on the things that I have posted, I have studied over 20 years and I'm pretty solid that it's sound. And everything I posted I laid out scriptures I got it from.
I'm not sure what specifically you're speaking of that I've said which you find to be scrambled, but I have no problem waiting whatever it is out until the day the Lord Returns to clear it up.
Again, no offense taken. Thanks for your input though.
As soon I sent a reply I get a message saying you replied. I should have waited just another 5 minutes. I just read over your last post and it is interesting. I need to dig a little deeper I suppose. Right now I can't commit to believing without a doubt that the antichrist will come from Rome. I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm just not completely sure. It could very well be a Pope but I don't know that.
You mention the basics as keeping the 10 Commandments and statutes. By statutes, are you referring to the Mishna? I gave up trying to keep the 10 Commandments. I found out early on that the harder I tried to keep them, the more I failed. I failed because I was trying to keep them the best way I knew how. But I couldn't do it. The reason I was failing was that I was trying to do these things in my own human effort. I don't think God thinks too much of anything I do in the human.
I'll share this with you about the phrase "faith in Christ." There are places in my bible where I scratch through the word "in" and replace it with the word "of." Some might say that I'm adding to or taking away, but not so. Various places in scripture say faith in Christ, but the original text says faith of Christ.
It's His faith. I come to know that there are two types of faith, human faith, and spiritual faith that the bible speaks of. We cannot produce spiritual faith. Spiritual faith is a fruit of God's Spirit. Without God's Spirit living in us, we could not have the type of faith the Bible speaks of. So I like to look at it as being the faith of Christ, not faith in Christ if that makes sense?
As for "having a foot in the door," my foot in the door started the moment I began being receptive to God's Spirit drawing me to Christ. I had my foot in the door for a while until deciding to give my life to Christ. My foot's no longer in the door.
As for writing novels, no worries there. I enjoy the conversation when it is respectful, even if we disagree. God Bless!
Jesse, well, on Rome you will have to research history, deep into history and encyclopedias and match it with Bible history. You're sure to find what I have said is true if you do. A lot has to do with the Ten horns and what they represent dating back to the defeat of the Herulians, Vandels, Ostrogoths, Justinian and even Napolion, and so forth. It's Revelation 13 stuff you have to use world history with to piece it together. I would be writing and replying until the coming of the Lord if I went further into it. But I guarantee it's Rome. So I say to you just keep studying everything. Pray for more understanding, etc.
You said it's too hard to keep the 10 Commandments??? Those are the very commandments mentioned throughout the bible that will assure us eternal life if we "strive" to keep them. You see I say "strive" because we're human. We cannot give up and say they're too hard to keep. What's so hard about not stealing, lying, committing adultery, coveting, keeping the Sabbath day holy, not worshipping idols and other gods, etc.? The first 4 commandments show us how to love God, the last 6 commandments show us how to love our neighbor (the way God instructed us to love our neighbor). So the 10 commandments is the law of love. As long as we're trying to keep them, we are showing love to God and our neighbors spiritually and physically.
Now, there are other ways outside of that...but those are our basics. I think the only one most Christians have a problem with is the 4th Commandment. But I'm not trying to go down that rabbit hole. I gotta work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.
The goal is to do what's required to make the First resurrection.
And I forgot, yes, I agree the second resurrection is for the Lake of Fire; however, they still must be judged at the Great white throne judgment.(Scary) I plan on and hope I'm a spirit being doing the judging by then.
Yes, I did read the scriptures you sent. However, those scriptures do not change my view to match with yours. Here's where we differ:
I do not agree that "no one is in a conscious state after death." The story of the rich man and Lazarus would show me that both were in a conscious state after death.
I do not agree that when we die (Physical death) "our body and soul dies and we're asleep until the appointed time." I believe this is a teaching held by the Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe the physical body (Flesh) will die and be in the grave, and one day we will receive our glorified bodies. But I believe the soul lives on forever. The soul of man will never die, or cease to exist. I don't believe in "Soul Sleep" either.
I don't agree that "Jesus did not finish his ministry." Jesus Himself said, "It is finished right before He died on the cross." If His ministry and work were not complete, what would be our hope for salvation? I do believe Jesus finished His ministry here on earth. I do not believe that any human power could have stopped Him from finishing what He came for. To say that they killed Him halfway through His ministry doesn't make sense to me.
No human power could have taken Him before He completed His work. There was a mob of about 1,000 men who came to take Him after Judas pointed Him out, but even that many men with clubs and swords could not have taken Him if His time to be taken was not then and there. Jesus blew that crowd of men backward on their behinds twice just by the power of His voice. You would have thought that by that time, they would have turned and ran. They couldn't have taken Him no matter how many men came to do it. Jesus surrendered Himself freely. If He was not finished with His ministry, He would not have freely surrendered Himself at that time.
Jesse, so Psalm 146:4 Which explains in the very day that we die, all of our thoughts perish indicates that we're in an unconscious state after death. I've given other scriptures which explain what happens at death, but okay. I'm not going to debate about it. We're all entitled to our beliefs. I'm not upset at your disagreement.
And about the Rich man and Lazarus, if you read through that chapter and really see if for what it is, it is clear that "that" even takes place in the future. That has not happened yet. That rich man was in the Lake of Fire, which we all know hasn't even been created yet. No one is currently burning in the lake of fire. The Lake of Fire will be in Jerusalem, just like the Kingdom of God will be in Jerusalem. A gulf will be fixed between the two places.
Abraham is still dead/asleep, has not been resurrected yet. So how could the rich man have seen Abraham? That story takes place after the Lord returns and sets up his kingdom on earth.
The Lord will return & raise every human from death, great and small at his Coming, either in the first resurrection or 2nd, So how can any human be awake now?
But again, I understand your position. I will not go further into it.
Jesus finished his ministry on earth as it pertains to fulfilling what was testified about him in the Old Testament. All of that is the first half of his ministry and yes, he did complete that.
Everything the prophets testified about concerning Jesus' coming was fulfilled and completed.
The last 3 1/2 years "or" days in the week talked about in Daniel will be the 2nd half of his ministry when he returns and teaches in the wilderness.
By the way, I am NOT a Jehovah's witness at all and not even close. Not saying that you called me one. But I wanted that to be clear. I do not agree with their teachings, like at all.
I'm of no denomination. I just study the bible as it is written.
Jesse, finishing where the dead goes and how Paul nor John nor any man who has ever lived could be in heaven presently.
Job 14:1-2;10-13 Man dies and wastes away. Man dies and will not wake up until the heavens are no more. (We still have heavens so the dead are still dead)
In Job 14:14 Job knew he had to wait until his appointed time to be resurrected.
I Thessalonians 4:13-17 Those who are living will be changed...those in the grave will be raised at the coming of the Lord, which is the First Resurrection.
Psalms 146:1-4 When we die, in that very day every though perishes. So how could Paul, who died, still be alive in heaven with thoughts?
St. John 5:25; 28-29 All the dead will hear the voice of the Lord, some to everlasting life and some to eternal damnation.
Daniel 12:1-2; 8-9; 13 This is referring to the Great Tribulation. Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel was told this prophecy wasn't for him but it was for the people of the End times. The Lord sealed the words from Daniel.
St. John 6:35; 38-40; 44; 54;63 The Lord will raise people up on the Last Day.
A lot of people still believe the dead is in heaven or hell right now, but the truth according to many scriptures is every man, good or bad is still in the grave until the Lord's First and Second resurrection. If humans were in heaven right now, what need would there be for a resurrection? The only one who's not dead is Enoch...who was translated but not dead.
I'm certain you know these scriptures. But I hope that you will go over them again and maybe see something you hadn't noticed before since I've pointed out some things.
Paul died in Christ so he will be one of the dead in Christ who will be raised at the Lord's 2nd coming.
How do I know for sure a man from Rome will sit in the temple? (I'll finish in the the last thread.)
Thank you for your clarification. Much of what you say here I am in agreement with. I know that no flesh can enter into heaven. And I also know that upon death, the physical body (flesh) will remain in the grave until the resurrection. With Christ as my Saviour, I will be part of the first resurrection. I believe those who are part of the second resurrection will be cast into the lake of fire. I do not believe that the flesh goes to be with the Lord. I do believe that upon death that our spirit leaves our body and will be present with the Lord. So if I gave the impression that I believed that both flesh and spirit ascend up to heaven upon death, I assure you that was not my intent. To be honest, I've never told anyone that my whole body, flesh and spirit will be in heaven because I know that's not true.
Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, so I take absent from the body to mean just that. It means that upon physical death, my spirit will depart my body (absent from it) and I will be present with the Lord. I hope we're in agreement with that.
Also, I do understand that the 70th week is referring to a 7-year period. 69 weeks have passed. We are currently living in the times of the Gentiles. My understanding is that the 70th week is still yet to come.
You mention natural born Israel in a place of safety during the Great Tribulation. I agree. These will be Jews. They will be protected during the last 3-1/2 years of the Tribulation known as the Great Tribulation. We know of at least 144,000 Jews who God will protect.
I guess I just have a couple question from this so far. Are you saying that Jesus died on a Wednesday? And are you saying that Jesus did not finish His ministry while He was here?
I look forward to the rest of your reply on the man from Rome that you say you will be sending soon. Until then, thanks for sharing your understanding with me.
Jesse, I realize the spirit goes back to God who created us. Keeping in mind our "spirit" in us is "the breath of life" that keeps us alive. We are the souls, and we have fleshly bodies. The breath of life is the spirit God breathes into our nostrils. However, the scriptures I posted were to show that no one is in a conscious state after death.
So it's like no individual person with a spiritual body is up in heaven right now.
When God breathed into Adam's nostrils, Adam became a "living soul"...without the breath of life he was a "dead soul." So we die, our body and soul dies and we're asleep until the appointed time.
I did not get the impression that you were implying that the body was in heaven at all. I was just making sure you understood that Paul himself, even as a spirit, conscious and alive, is not in heaven right now. Especially since everyone will get their spiritual bodies at the Resurrections. The soul dies, the body goes back to the dust, and the spirit/breath of life goes back to God. No consciousness until the Return. I think we're clear now.
Correct, Jesus did not finish his ministry because he was killed in the midst of the week.(a Wednesday) on the Passover which was in the midst of the week that year. He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights which had him rising at the end of the Sabbath, just before it dawned towards Sunday. He was out of the grave before Sunday.
When he returns, he will teach Israel in the wilderness 3 1/2 yrs and finish his ministry. This will be mortals (Israel). I explained Jesus came to testify of what was written in the Old Testament. Did you happen to read over the scriptures I replied with?
I say "Israel" as opposed to Jews because Jews in the biblical term really meant someone was from the tribe of Juda. Israel encompasses all 12 tribes. But I guess you're saying Jews to mean all of the children of Israel?
Revelation Chapter 6 (REMEMBER THIS IS HEAVEN AND GOD'S THRONE)
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: ...I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:....not their resurrected bodies, just the souls
10 And they (the souls under the altar) cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And they (the souls under the altar) cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (they await their resurrected bodies and think about how a pre trib rapture would fit into this scenario) Hint: it can not.
I'm very familiar w/the 70 weeks of Daniel. Daniel 9th Chapter. The 3 half years out of a week is talking about a prophetic week & a literal week. Jesus was cut off/killed in the midst of a prophetic week AND a literal week, What we know as a Wednesday. So he didn't finish his ministry. Jesus came to testify about what was written in the Old Testament. He taught 3 half years and was killed & that ended the animal sacrificial law.
(So when I said he will teach natural born Israel in the wilderness 3 half yrs upon his return, that other 3 half years makes the 7yrs which represents a full week of his ministry. 7 years is a prophetic week. (please reference the story of Jacob and Rachel in Genesis 29:16-27 to understand what I mean by this. (7yrs is 1 week)
In Daniel 10 (For Jesus to have been annointed the "Messiah" was 69 weeks, which left 1 more week (7yrs) a prophetic week.)(This about Jesus, Jerusalem, and the children of Israel, not the anti-Christ nor a 7yr tribulation. Jesus was annointed the Messiah in 26A.D(69 weeks) and cut off in 30 A.D. (70th week/7yrs/7th week)
Revelation 12:1;6;14 (This is talking about natural born Israel in the place of safety(The Wilderness) during the Great Tribulation. 3 1/2 yrs.
On Paul and John. II Corinthians 12:2 (Jesus was the ONLY man who was on earth then caught up to the 3rd heaven. So Paul is talking about how he saw Jesus in his spiritual body. Paul is not talking about himself. And John saw a vision of the Throne. He was not physically there.
John 3:13 No man has ascended up to heaven but he who ascended out of heaven. (if any man other than Jesus is in heaven right now then Jesus lied; he cannot lie so we should all know the dead is still dead and their spirit is not conscious in heaven presently able to communicate with any being).
Psalms 104:23; 28-29 Man dies/returns to the dust. Ecclesiastes 12:1;5;7 Man goes back to the dust;his spirit goes to God. (spirit is simply the breath of life).
I agree that all who are found worthy will receive spiritual bodies. But what does it mean to be found worthy? Am I found worthy? I think not. One day when I stand before the Lord, I'm going to know that I don't deserve to be there. I am found worthy not because of anything I did, but because God is going to see His Son in me. You see, I am made righteous through Christ because He alone is righteous. I have no righteousness of my own.
You say that "the church applies to everyone who will be grafted into the God Family natural born and spiritual." I would agree that the church consists of all believers who have received Christ and have been born of His Spirit. I am not following what you mean about the "natural born" part?
I also agree with you that there is only one more return to earth by Christ. And yes, the bible is clear that all eyes will see Him. Our technology today makes that possible (Satellite TV, etc.). This return to earth is His second coming. Revelation Chapter 19 says we come back with Him. But I don't believe this refers to us meeting Him first in the air (the clouds), and then immediately coming back down to the earth. Why would we meet Him in the clouds just to come right back down? I see nothing in scripture that supports that thought. I do agree that Christ will come and reign for 1,000 years. I see this as happening after the Tribulation period.
You mention that "Jesus will be teaching the children of Israel in the Wilderness for 3 and a half years when he returns." Can you share with me where you find that in scripture? I'm not saying I agree or disagree at this point. I just never heard that before.
As far as the Tribulation Period goes, I still believe it will be a 7-year period. The first 3 years is called the Tribulation. The last 3 years, the bible calls it the Great Tribulation. And the whole time it is called the Tribulation period.
Jesse, what I meant by "to be found worthy" is just having a good rapport, righteousness through faith in Jesus upon his return.
When I say "natural born Israel" is physical Israelites by bloodline. Since the male carries the seed, whoever a person's father's father is down the line is the true nationality of that person according to God. Not discounting "mixed" with something else. I'm going strictly by the male's seed as it was done according to the Lord and the bible Descendants of the children of Israel are still here today, only God knows exactly who they are. That's the only way he can gather them from where he scattered them throughout the 4 corners of the earth upon his return.
(You say Revelation 19 says we come back with him?) Read: Zechariah 14:1;3-5;9;16-17 (iThe day of the Lord's return, yes, he said he will bring all the saints w/him.
See: I Thessalonians 3:12-13(This is the Lord saying he's coming w/all his saints.
See: Zechariah 14:9; 16-17 (EVERYONE that is left of all nations. Ask yourself, where did Jesus get his saints from that he'll have w/him upon his return? See: I Thessalonians.
I Thessalonians 4:13-17 (The Lord coming down. He said the saints will be "caught up in the clouds" to meet him in the air. This all takes place "after" the last trumpet, "after" the "Great Tribulation."
See: Daniel 7:1-3; 13-14; 17-18; 27 (verse 13 Remember the Lord said he's coming meeting in the clouds?)
4 Kings=4 Kingdoms. The saints of the most high will take the kingdom. "Under the heaven"=This is Jesus' Kingdom on earth. Notice verse 27 This is the last prophecy the angel Gabriel gave Mary.
Ezekiel 20:32-39 The Lord is dealing w/Natural born Israel "after" his return on earth. These are mortal beings he will plead w/and purge out the rebels in the wilderness, then make his new covenant w/them. Part of this scripture deals w/the past;part of it deals w/future events.
Jesse, I realize that the Lord will gather the Children of Israel upon his return. The children of Israel are a people who have been scattered throughout the four corners of the earth. Scattered and not people who migrated. They are a people who were led away captive. (Referencing Deuteronomy 28 the curses). So I get that. But keep in mind upon his return he will give natural born Israelites their spiritual bodies as well as other nations who were are found worthy will receive their spiritual bodies.
"The Church" applies to everyone who will be grafted into the God Family natural born and spiritual.
He is only making "one" more return to earth and when he does, "everyone" will see him. It will not be secret. As he is descending, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those humans who are alive upon his return will get their change and meet him in the clouds, then they will all return right back to the earth. As he has stated he is returning to rule on earth 1,000 years. Spirit beings and mortal beings living together during the thousand years.
But Jesus will be teaching the children of Israel in the Wilderness for 3 and a half years when he returns. No scriptures support a 7 year tribulation. It's 3 1/2 years no matter where you read the Book.
The last 3 1/2 years the Lord will finish his ministry and teach Israel in the Wilderness. Perhaps that's where people get confused. But the actual tribulation will begin as soon as the man of sin moves from Rome and sits in the Third Temple which will be built in Jerusalem soon. When the Abomination of Desolation moves into the temple, the 3 and a half year tribulation will begin.
This only allows for so many characters. I will have to continue.
Revelation 21 is the Father God bringing the New Jerusalem from heaven to place it on earth.
At this time there will be nothing left but spirit beings. Those who were tossed in the lake of fire, and those found worthy to dwell in the Kingdom.
Every single event regarding humans will take place on earth. When the Great Tribulation starts, we will be on earth. The only place of safety will be The Wilderness, which the Lord will prepare for those found worthy.
Tribulation will be 3 and a half years. Matthew 24:29 immediately after the tribulation is when the Lord will return to gather his people.
The Jews will be kept safe from harm during the last 3-1/2 years of the Tribulation Period, known as The Great Tribulation. They are told that when they see the abomination of desolation setting up in their temple, to flee. This will be at the mid-point of the 7-year period. No harm will come to them. The church will not be on the earth at this time. The ones who are told to flee are the Jews. God knows that at this time, there are 144,000 Jews who are sealed by God and He is going to protect them. Many believe that they will flee into the Rock City of Petra.
I see nothing in scripture that tells me that the church will be here or what role the church will have during this 7-year tribulation period. I read about the events of the Tribulation from Revelation Chapter 4 through Chapter 19, and not one place in those chapters is the church mentioned. After Revelation Chapter 3, there is no mention of the church. But when I get to Chapter 19, it seems to me that in Chapter 19 of Revelation, the church is in heaven at a wedding that is taking place while the tribulation is still happening on the earth and before Christ comes back at His second coming. Who are these people at this wedding? Who's getting married? Who are the ones in Chapter 19 who are clothed in white, the garments of a bride? Whoever they are, they will be the ones coming back with Christ at His second coming. I believe it is the church. At least, this is what I see. Please share your thoughts on this.
Revelation 21:1-3 (this is the Father coming down with New Jerusalem) John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:10 John was shown the great city, the holy Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God.
Revelation 6:1-8; 12-17 Takes place during the tribulation on earth, but also speaks of Jesus AFTER the tribulation and the wrath he will bring on earth. (Reference Isaiah 2:10 and Isaiah speaks of this event in Revelation 6)
Revelation 7:1-4. 9; 13-14 the Lord will seal his servants in their foreheads. 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel. He will also save a "great multitude" which no man could number of "all" nations. (These are the people who survived the Great Tribulation, some who will have gotten converted during the tribulation)
Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation the Lord returns.
Revelation 19:11-14;19-21 Heaven will open, Jesus will show up on a white horse. He will judge and make war.
I know that's a lot. I hope that you will read through the scriptures on your own time.
But know this, there will only be a 3 and a half year actual tribulation period, and anyone who is alive during that time will have to try and survive it, unless they are in the place of safety on earth which the Lord will have reserved for his people...and that place is the Wilderness over in Jerusalem.
Acts 1:6-12 The angel said the Lord will return in like manner.(Notice the Lord was on the Mt. of Olives when he left earth)
Zechariah 14:1-5 (Read the entire chapter) Notice verse 5 His feet shall stand that day upon the Mt. of Olives which is before Jerusalem on the east. (The entire chapter of Zechariah 14 takes place while the Lord is dwelling on earth)
Zechariah 14:9-11 Lord shall be king over all the earth.
Zechariah 14:16-19 The Feast of Tabernacles will be held in Jerusalem each year where Jesus will be dwelling.
Zechariah 8:1-8 Lord returns to Zion and dwells in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem will be called City of Truth. He will bring his people to Jerusalem to be his people and he their God. (This has not taken place yet; it's all future)
Isaiah 66:15-18;19-20;23-24 All flesh will come worship him from one new moon to another, one Sabbath to another. People who are in the lake of fire will not have their fire quenched. (this is all future)
Revelation 20:1-3 The Angel comes to bound Satan 1,000yrs. (This is the First resurrection) These saints will reign with Christ 1,000yrs.
I Thessalonins 3:13-17 The Lord coming with all his saints in the clouds. See Daniel 7
Daniel 7:1-3;13-14; (verse 13 remember the Lord said he's coming back in the clouds?)
Daniel 7:7-18;27 (verse 27 under the heaven is where Jesus' Kingdom will be)
Luke 1:26-27;30-33 (What did the angel tell Mary? Read verse 30-33.) That God promised DAvid someone would come through his lineage and sit on the throne of David. (Jesus will come to earth to sit on David's throne.)
Psalm 123:11-16 The Lord swore in truth to David he will sit upon David's throne. (Who are his children? the Saints).
David's throne will be in Jerusalem.
I will continue...
The people mentioned in Matthew 24:29 to the end of the chapter that Christ is going to gather are Jews, not the church. The word "Tribes" in Verse 30 is very important. That tells us that we are talking about Jewish people. It is a Jewish term. All the tribes of the earth shall mourn. And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. All the tribes! Again, that would be Jews.
In Revelation Chapter 1 Verse 7, it tells us that every eye will see Him, even those who have pierced Him. Zechariah 12:10 is a prophecy that the Jews hold to, only they don't understand its application. It says that when Messiah comes, they will look upon Him whom they have pierced.
So at this time when Christ comes, at His second coming, the Jews who are left on the earth, they are going to mourn, and they are going to look and go "Oh no, we crucified our Messiah, and here He is!" The Jews are going to recognize Him.
Verse 31 also uses a keyword, and that is the word "elect." It tells us that when Christ does come, He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. I'll share some technical information with you to show you how good this passage really is:
He is going to send His angels out with a great sound of a Shofar. It's a ram's horn. In the Greek text, the word "sound" is in brackets, which means it has been added to the text by some unseen person who doesn't understand the fact that the word "great" modifies the trumpet. It is called a great Shofar.
The prophecy is in Isaiah Chapter 27 Verses 12 and 13. It says the great Shofar will blow, and the Lord will gather His people (The Jews) from the four corners of the earth. So that is very important because that's also a prophecy that the Jews looked for. It says He is going to gather them together, His elect, that would be the Jews, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, north, south, east, and west.
Running out of space, I will send a Part 2:
I have scriptures to support my claim but it would take 5 boxes or more to explain. :-P
Lastly, I agree with a lot of what you are saying but not all. I think our disagreement is more of a timing issue than anything else. I completely respect your views and I know we can't agree on everything. Wouldn't that be nice if every believer agreed on every word of scripture? We (The Church) would not be in such a mess that we are in today if we all agreed with everything. But I'm sure we both would agree that that's never going to happen as long as we live in these fleshly bodies!
Thank you so much for your reply. And thank you for sharing your understanding with me.
This is known as the 70th week of Daniel, a week being a seven-year period. I don't know how to get 3-1/2 years out of a week? The 70th week of Daniel is divided into four sections: Pains of Birth (The first 3-1/2 years), the Pivotal Point (Mid-Point of the Tribulation), Perils of tribulation (The last 3-1/2 years known as the Great Tribulation), and then the promise of His Coming (The Second Coming of Christ).
You say that the actual tribulation begins as soon as the man of sin moves from Rome and sits in the temple, and if you are referring to what the Bible calls "The Great Tribulation" then I agree. I am curious as to how you know for sure this man comes from Rome?
If no man will ever go to the 3rd heaven where the Father, Son, and holy angels currently dwell, where is Paul the apostle at right now? Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. If the Lord is in the 3rd heaven and Paul is present with the Lord, where is Paul? Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. Could that have been Paul himself? And wasn't John caught up to the 3rd heaven? John got to see the throne in heaven and the one sitting on it.
I do agree that there will be some who will survive the Great Tribulation, the last 3-1/2 years. However, I think it will be very few, not great multitudes. I do thank you for sending me all these scriptures. Please know that I have read all these before and I am familiar with them. They are not new to me.
(One more very short reply to follow)
This is all Revelation 13:1-7 prophecy and Daniel 7 and 8 prophecies. It's a lot to go into and can be confusing. But during the tribulation there has to be a religious ruler and a political ruler.
Sorry we've written novels on here. But it was good talking with you about the Word. Yes, we differ on some things. But hopefully nothing that will get anyone cut off. The basics are keeping The Lord's 10 Commandments and statutes, having faith in Jesus Christ and that should get a person's foot in the door. Working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Strive to make it in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Without a shadow of a doubt, according to scriptures, no man (human) who has ever lived is in heaven right now except Jesus Christ himself.
And the Lord isn't going to return until immediately the Great Tribulation.
The only place of safety during the Great Tribulation for 3 1/2 years will be in the Wilderness...which the Lord will make sure his people get there safely just like he did in the days of old with the Children of Israel.
I enjoyed the dialogue.
Maybe Chris can help you. He's very patient and kind.
But again, I don't believe I'm scrambled on Revelation 21. It's pretty cut and dry the end of the Book.
Thank you
I'm not sure what specifically you're speaking of that I've said which you find to be scrambled, but I have no problem waiting whatever it is out until the day the Lord Returns to clear it up.
Again, no offense taken. Thanks for your input though.
As soon I sent a reply I get a message saying you replied. I should have waited just another 5 minutes. I just read over your last post and it is interesting. I need to dig a little deeper I suppose. Right now I can't commit to believing without a doubt that the antichrist will come from Rome. I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm just not completely sure. It could very well be a Pope but I don't know that.
You mention the basics as keeping the 10 Commandments and statutes. By statutes, are you referring to the Mishna? I gave up trying to keep the 10 Commandments. I found out early on that the harder I tried to keep them, the more I failed. I failed because I was trying to keep them the best way I knew how. But I couldn't do it. The reason I was failing was that I was trying to do these things in my own human effort. I don't think God thinks too much of anything I do in the human.
I'll share this with you about the phrase "faith in Christ." There are places in my bible where I scratch through the word "in" and replace it with the word "of." Some might say that I'm adding to or taking away, but not so. Various places in scripture say faith in Christ, but the original text says faith of Christ.
It's His faith. I come to know that there are two types of faith, human faith, and spiritual faith that the bible speaks of. We cannot produce spiritual faith. Spiritual faith is a fruit of God's Spirit. Without God's Spirit living in us, we could not have the type of faith the Bible speaks of. So I like to look at it as being the faith of Christ, not faith in Christ if that makes sense?
As for "having a foot in the door," my foot in the door started the moment I began being receptive to God's Spirit drawing me to Christ. I had my foot in the door for a while until deciding to give my life to Christ. My foot's no longer in the door.
As for writing novels, no worries there. I enjoy the conversation when it is respectful, even if we disagree. God Bless!
You said it's too hard to keep the 10 Commandments??? Those are the very commandments mentioned throughout the bible that will assure us eternal life if we "strive" to keep them. You see I say "strive" because we're human. We cannot give up and say they're too hard to keep. What's so hard about not stealing, lying, committing adultery, coveting, keeping the Sabbath day holy, not worshipping idols and other gods, etc.? The first 4 commandments show us how to love God, the last 6 commandments show us how to love our neighbor (the way God instructed us to love our neighbor). So the 10 commandments is the law of love. As long as we're trying to keep them, we are showing love to God and our neighbors spiritually and physically.
Now, there are other ways outside of that...but those are our basics. I think the only one most Christians have a problem with is the 4th Commandment. But I'm not trying to go down that rabbit hole. I gotta work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.
The goal is to do what's required to make the First resurrection.
And I forgot, yes, I agree the second resurrection is for the Lake of Fire; however, they still must be judged at the Great white throne judgment.(Scary) I plan on and hope I'm a spirit being doing the judging by then.
Yes, I did read the scriptures you sent. However, those scriptures do not change my view to match with yours. Here's where we differ:
I do not agree that "no one is in a conscious state after death." The story of the rich man and Lazarus would show me that both were in a conscious state after death.
I do not agree that when we die (Physical death) "our body and soul dies and we're asleep until the appointed time." I believe this is a teaching held by the Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe the physical body (Flesh) will die and be in the grave, and one day we will receive our glorified bodies. But I believe the soul lives on forever. The soul of man will never die, or cease to exist. I don't believe in "Soul Sleep" either.
I don't agree that "Jesus did not finish his ministry." Jesus Himself said, "It is finished right before He died on the cross." If His ministry and work were not complete, what would be our hope for salvation? I do believe Jesus finished His ministry here on earth. I do not believe that any human power could have stopped Him from finishing what He came for. To say that they killed Him halfway through His ministry doesn't make sense to me.
No human power could have taken Him before He completed His work. There was a mob of about 1,000 men who came to take Him after Judas pointed Him out, but even that many men with clubs and swords could not have taken Him if His time to be taken was not then and there. Jesus blew that crowd of men backward on their behinds twice just by the power of His voice. You would have thought that by that time, they would have turned and ran. They couldn't have taken Him no matter how many men came to do it. Jesus surrendered Himself freely. If He was not finished with His ministry, He would not have freely surrendered Himself at that time.
Thanks again for the conversation.
And about the Rich man and Lazarus, if you read through that chapter and really see if for what it is, it is clear that "that" even takes place in the future. That has not happened yet. That rich man was in the Lake of Fire, which we all know hasn't even been created yet. No one is currently burning in the lake of fire. The Lake of Fire will be in Jerusalem, just like the Kingdom of God will be in Jerusalem. A gulf will be fixed between the two places.
Abraham is still dead/asleep, has not been resurrected yet. So how could the rich man have seen Abraham? That story takes place after the Lord returns and sets up his kingdom on earth.
The Lord will return & raise every human from death, great and small at his Coming, either in the first resurrection or 2nd, So how can any human be awake now?
But again, I understand your position. I will not go further into it.
Jesus finished his ministry on earth as it pertains to fulfilling what was testified about him in the Old Testament. All of that is the first half of his ministry and yes, he did complete that.
Everything the prophets testified about concerning Jesus' coming was fulfilled and completed.
The last 3 1/2 years "or" days in the week talked about in Daniel will be the 2nd half of his ministry when he returns and teaches in the wilderness.
By the way, I am NOT a Jehovah's witness at all and not even close. Not saying that you called me one. But I wanted that to be clear. I do not agree with their teachings, like at all.
I'm of no denomination. I just study the bible as it is written.
No need to reply. We've had a nice chat.
Nice talking to you too.
Amen, all praise, honor, and glory to Him. We are all just vessels for His purposes!
Job 14:1-2;10-13 Man dies and wastes away. Man dies and will not wake up until the heavens are no more. (We still have heavens so the dead are still dead)
In Job 14:14 Job knew he had to wait until his appointed time to be resurrected.
I Thessalonians 4:13-17 Those who are living will be changed...those in the grave will be raised at the coming of the Lord, which is the First Resurrection.
Psalms 146:1-4 When we die, in that very day every though perishes. So how could Paul, who died, still be alive in heaven with thoughts?
St. John 5:25; 28-29 All the dead will hear the voice of the Lord, some to everlasting life and some to eternal damnation.
Daniel 12:1-2; 8-9; 13 This is referring to the Great Tribulation. Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel was told this prophecy wasn't for him but it was for the people of the End times. The Lord sealed the words from Daniel.
St. John 6:35; 38-40; 44; 54;63 The Lord will raise people up on the Last Day.
A lot of people still believe the dead is in heaven or hell right now, but the truth according to many scriptures is every man, good or bad is still in the grave until the Lord's First and Second resurrection. If humans were in heaven right now, what need would there be for a resurrection? The only one who's not dead is Enoch...who was translated but not dead.
I'm certain you know these scriptures. But I hope that you will go over them again and maybe see something you hadn't noticed before since I've pointed out some things.
Paul died in Christ so he will be one of the dead in Christ who will be raised at the Lord's 2nd coming.
How do I know for sure a man from Rome will sit in the temple? (I'll finish in the the last thread.)
Thank you for your clarification. Much of what you say here I am in agreement with. I know that no flesh can enter into heaven. And I also know that upon death, the physical body (flesh) will remain in the grave until the resurrection. With Christ as my Saviour, I will be part of the first resurrection. I believe those who are part of the second resurrection will be cast into the lake of fire. I do not believe that the flesh goes to be with the Lord. I do believe that upon death that our spirit leaves our body and will be present with the Lord. So if I gave the impression that I believed that both flesh and spirit ascend up to heaven upon death, I assure you that was not my intent. To be honest, I've never told anyone that my whole body, flesh and spirit will be in heaven because I know that's not true.
Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, so I take absent from the body to mean just that. It means that upon physical death, my spirit will depart my body (absent from it) and I will be present with the Lord. I hope we're in agreement with that.
Also, I do understand that the 70th week is referring to a 7-year period. 69 weeks have passed. We are currently living in the times of the Gentiles. My understanding is that the 70th week is still yet to come.
You mention natural born Israel in a place of safety during the Great Tribulation. I agree. These will be Jews. They will be protected during the last 3-1/2 years of the Tribulation known as the Great Tribulation. We know of at least 144,000 Jews who God will protect.
I guess I just have a couple question from this so far. Are you saying that Jesus died on a Wednesday? And are you saying that Jesus did not finish His ministry while He was here?
I look forward to the rest of your reply on the man from Rome that you say you will be sending soon. Until then, thanks for sharing your understanding with me.
So it's like no individual person with a spiritual body is up in heaven right now.
When God breathed into Adam's nostrils, Adam became a "living soul"...without the breath of life he was a "dead soul." So we die, our body and soul dies and we're asleep until the appointed time.
I did not get the impression that you were implying that the body was in heaven at all. I was just making sure you understood that Paul himself, even as a spirit, conscious and alive, is not in heaven right now. Especially since everyone will get their spiritual bodies at the Resurrections. The soul dies, the body goes back to the dust, and the spirit/breath of life goes back to God. No consciousness until the Return. I think we're clear now.
Correct, Jesus did not finish his ministry because he was killed in the midst of the week.(a Wednesday) on the Passover which was in the midst of the week that year. He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights which had him rising at the end of the Sabbath, just before it dawned towards Sunday. He was out of the grave before Sunday.
When he returns, he will teach Israel in the wilderness 3 1/2 yrs and finish his ministry. This will be mortals (Israel). I explained Jesus came to testify of what was written in the Old Testament. Did you happen to read over the scriptures I replied with?
I say "Israel" as opposed to Jews because Jews in the biblical term really meant someone was from the tribe of Juda. Israel encompasses all 12 tribes. But I guess you're saying Jews to mean all of the children of Israel?
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: ...I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:....not their resurrected bodies, just the souls
10 And they (the souls under the altar) cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And they (the souls under the altar) cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (they await their resurrected bodies and think about how a pre trib rapture would fit into this scenario) Hint: it can not.
(So when I said he will teach natural born Israel in the wilderness 3 half yrs upon his return, that other 3 half years makes the 7yrs which represents a full week of his ministry. 7 years is a prophetic week. (please reference the story of Jacob and Rachel in Genesis 29:16-27 to understand what I mean by this. (7yrs is 1 week)
In Daniel 10 (For Jesus to have been annointed the "Messiah" was 69 weeks, which left 1 more week (7yrs) a prophetic week.)(This about Jesus, Jerusalem, and the children of Israel, not the anti-Christ nor a 7yr tribulation. Jesus was annointed the Messiah in 26A.D(69 weeks) and cut off in 30 A.D. (70th week/7yrs/7th week)
Revelation 12:1;6;14 (This is talking about natural born Israel in the place of safety(The Wilderness) during the Great Tribulation. 3 1/2 yrs.
On Paul and John. II Corinthians 12:2 (Jesus was the ONLY man who was on earth then caught up to the 3rd heaven. So Paul is talking about how he saw Jesus in his spiritual body. Paul is not talking about himself. And John saw a vision of the Throne. He was not physically there.
John 3:13 No man has ascended up to heaven but he who ascended out of heaven. (if any man other than Jesus is in heaven right now then Jesus lied; he cannot lie so we should all know the dead is still dead and their spirit is not conscious in heaven presently able to communicate with any being).
Psalms 104:23; 28-29 Man dies/returns to the dust. Ecclesiastes 12:1;5;7 Man goes back to the dust;his spirit goes to God. (spirit is simply the breath of life).
I agree that all who are found worthy will receive spiritual bodies. But what does it mean to be found worthy? Am I found worthy? I think not. One day when I stand before the Lord, I'm going to know that I don't deserve to be there. I am found worthy not because of anything I did, but because God is going to see His Son in me. You see, I am made righteous through Christ because He alone is righteous. I have no righteousness of my own.
You say that "the church applies to everyone who will be grafted into the God Family natural born and spiritual." I would agree that the church consists of all believers who have received Christ and have been born of His Spirit. I am not following what you mean about the "natural born" part?
I also agree with you that there is only one more return to earth by Christ. And yes, the bible is clear that all eyes will see Him. Our technology today makes that possible (Satellite TV, etc.). This return to earth is His second coming. Revelation Chapter 19 says we come back with Him. But I don't believe this refers to us meeting Him first in the air (the clouds), and then immediately coming back down to the earth. Why would we meet Him in the clouds just to come right back down? I see nothing in scripture that supports that thought. I do agree that Christ will come and reign for 1,000 years. I see this as happening after the Tribulation period.
You mention that "Jesus will be teaching the children of Israel in the Wilderness for 3 and a half years when he returns." Can you share with me where you find that in scripture? I'm not saying I agree or disagree at this point. I just never heard that before.
As far as the Tribulation Period goes, I still believe it will be a 7-year period. The first 3 years is called the Tribulation. The last 3 years, the bible calls it the Great Tribulation. And the whole time it is called the Tribulation period.
(More to follow...)
When I say "natural born Israel" is physical Israelites by bloodline. Since the male carries the seed, whoever a person's father's father is down the line is the true nationality of that person according to God. Not discounting "mixed" with something else. I'm going strictly by the male's seed as it was done according to the Lord and the bible Descendants of the children of Israel are still here today, only God knows exactly who they are. That's the only way he can gather them from where he scattered them throughout the 4 corners of the earth upon his return.
(You say Revelation 19 says we come back with him?) Read: Zechariah 14:1;3-5;9;16-17 (iThe day of the Lord's return, yes, he said he will bring all the saints w/him.
See: I Thessalonians 3:12-13(This is the Lord saying he's coming w/all his saints.
See: Zechariah 14:9; 16-17 (EVERYONE that is left of all nations. Ask yourself, where did Jesus get his saints from that he'll have w/him upon his return? See: I Thessalonians.
I Thessalonians 4:13-17 (The Lord coming down. He said the saints will be "caught up in the clouds" to meet him in the air. This all takes place "after" the last trumpet, "after" the "Great Tribulation."
See: Daniel 7:1-3; 13-14; 17-18; 27 (verse 13 Remember the Lord said he's coming meeting in the clouds?)
4 Kings=4 Kingdoms. The saints of the most high will take the kingdom. "Under the heaven"=This is Jesus' Kingdom on earth. Notice verse 27 This is the last prophecy the angel Gabriel gave Mary.
Ezekiel 20:32-39 The Lord is dealing w/Natural born Israel "after" his return on earth. These are mortal beings he will plead w/and purge out the rebels in the wilderness, then make his new covenant w/them. Part of this scripture deals w/the past;part of it deals w/future events.
I'll answer your second part shortly.
"The Church" applies to everyone who will be grafted into the God Family natural born and spiritual.
He is only making "one" more return to earth and when he does, "everyone" will see him. It will not be secret. As he is descending, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those humans who are alive upon his return will get their change and meet him in the clouds, then they will all return right back to the earth. As he has stated he is returning to rule on earth 1,000 years. Spirit beings and mortal beings living together during the thousand years.
But Jesus will be teaching the children of Israel in the Wilderness for 3 and a half years when he returns. No scriptures support a 7 year tribulation. It's 3 1/2 years no matter where you read the Book.
The last 3 1/2 years the Lord will finish his ministry and teach Israel in the Wilderness. Perhaps that's where people get confused. But the actual tribulation will begin as soon as the man of sin moves from Rome and sits in the Third Temple which will be built in Jerusalem soon. When the Abomination of Desolation moves into the temple, the 3 and a half year tribulation will begin.
This only allows for so many characters. I will have to continue.
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