Bible Discussion Thread

 
  • Greg on James 1
    WHY DO PEOPLE NOT REST ON THE SABBATH DAY / SEVENTH DAY?

    And God RESTED on the SEVENTH DAY.

    And God BLESSED the SEVENTH DAY and SANCTIFIED the SEVENTH DAY.

    Many have changed the day of rest from the SEVENTH DAY to the first day.

    There are TWO Biblical reasons people believe this.

    1) The first day of the week is the day that Matthew 28:1, Mark and Luke 23:55, 24:2 relate that the sepulchre was opened and Jesus was not found there.

    2) During the 40 days that Jesus was on earth before He rose into heaven He appeared to His disciples seven times. Five of the seven times Jesus met with them on the FIRST DAY of the week. The other two times, the day is not mentioned. Look at Mark 16:9-13, Mark 16:14-18, Luke 24:13-33, Luke 24:34, Luke 24:36-44, John 20:11-23, John 20:26-29.

    None of the examples given above concerning the FIRST DAY of the week allow any authority for us to change the SEVENTH DAY to the FIRST DAY.

    Jesus NEVER GAVE AUTHORITY TO DO THIS.

    ( Mark 2:27-28) "And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath."

    If we believe in the Father and His only begotten Son, then we have Christ in us every day, not just one day per week.

    This new understanding is an enhancement of the 7th day, not the abolishing of it. It was made to last FOREVER. This is a day that God BLESSED and SANCTIFIED!

    Christ ALWAYS honored the Sabbath.

    The Apostles kept the Sabbath AFTER CHRIST DIED; look at Acts 13:14, 27, 42, 44, Acts 16:13, etc.

    Pentecost is a holy SABBATH day; i.e. a day of rest.

    In Acts 17:2 and Acts 18:4, Paul is continually feeding the people Scripture on the SABBATH. Christ never abolished the Sabbath; neither did Paul. God never said anything concerning that fact, and if He wanted that day changed He would have made it abundantly clear.

    Further study concerning the importance of the Seventh Day can be found throughout ALL Scripture; as well as in the Book of Enoch.
  • Chris - in Reply on James 1
    Page 2.

    d. to those that then require the keeping of the Sabbath as mandatory even for Christians, does the disobedience to this Law then translate to sin & what then is the result? In other words, is there hope of salvation for the 'Christian' who refuses to recognize the Sabbath Day? Is our salvation dependent on the Cross plus the keeping of the Sabbath?

    e. However, is it possible to keep the Sabbath, indeed the whole Law as one would so be bound to, & not commit the sin of syncretizing the Law of Works & Grace? Would not then the observance of the Sabbath be a sin, as it shows the believer placing himself back under the Law for salvation or to assist in it? So, a Sabbath-keeper is obliged to 'keep the whole Law & if he offends in one point, he is guilty of all (Js 2:10).
  • Chris - in Reply on James 1
    Page 1.

    Greg, you gave a good account in support of keeping the Sabbath day holy, but could you consider the following as the other side of this teaching?

    a. Israel was marked out by God to be His chosen people: to set His Love upon them & through whom His Son would come to reconcile man to God. As such there were two clear signs that proved to the nations about them, that this people were Holy, separated to God: the giving of the Law & Circumcision. No other nation received this instruction & compulsion to obey.

    b. when Jesus came into this World, His Ministry & His calling together of the twelve, they were still, in what we regard, the Old Testament, or Old Covenant, even though the Bible was divided differently. It was only natural, in keeping of the Law & occasion to worship, that the Sabbath was still recognized as the day of rest. After He rose from the grave & ascended to Heaven, the believers still worshipped on the Sabbath if attending the synagogue, but the 'first day of week' began to be recognized as the Lord's Day & the Church began to worship on that day ( Acts 20:7, 1 Cor 16:2, Rev 1:10, in reference to the Lord's Day as a recognized day set aside).

    c. as part of the New Covenant, we understand that it was made through HIS Blood (unlike the blood of the sacrifices under the Old) which not only gave all who expressed faith in Christ's Work a New & Living Way back to God, but also "nailed to the Cross the handwriting of Ordinances that were against them" ( Col 2:14). This now redundant Law signified that any obedience to it & binding of the Law to ourselves was no longer compatible to the New Covenant: indeed, to observe the Law of Works & the Law of Grace did despite to the Work of the Cross. The two cannot be syncretized. Gal 2:21: "for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
  • Greg - in Reply on James 1
    Chris,

    I appreciate your feedback concerning the Seventh Day.

    In considering the other side of the teaching that you presented, I will respond below.

    The Seventh day was declared by God BEFORE He chose Israel. This Law was established for ALL to obey and enjoy.

    The 10 Commandments are OT LAW, are they abolished?

    Do you still follow the 10 Commandments?

    Jesus abolished BLOOD Ordinances, and either partially or completely fulfilled OT prophecy concerning His first coming, but Christ did not come to abolish the LAW.

    So, then, if a person claims to have FAITH in Jesus but all of his WORKS are evil, where do you think this person ends up? Jesus tells us very plainly ( Matthew 7:23). Looks like FAITH has a lot to do with following the LAW ( Galatians 3:11-12) and with WORKS, ( James 2:17).

    The English word "week" is defined from the Greek word meaning "Sabbath" or "day of rest;" also a 7 day period of time.

    You state that the Lord God or His only begotten Son changed the holy Sabbath day based upon Scripture (from your understanding of Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, and Revelation 1:10):

    "The first day of the week began to be recognized as the Lord's Day and that the Church began worshipping on that day"

    Acts 20:7, concerns the first day of the Sabbath in reckoning the 7 Sabbaths to Pentecost.

    1 Corinthians 16:2 has to do with preparation (work) for when Paul returns.

    Revelation 1:10 concerns John being taken "in the spirit" to the great and dreadful "day of the Lord" or the "Lord's day"

    when the Messiah shall return, and John is given testimony in relation to that. (Not Sunday!)

    None of these Scriptures you offer give authorization to change the Sabbath day from the SEVENTH DAY to the FIRST DAY of the week.

    Christ FORETOLD US EVERYTHING WE NEED TO KNOW. God did not give us instruction to change the Sabbath, neither did Jesus, nor did the Prophets and Apostles.
  • Chris - in Reply on James 1
    Page 3.

    As you summarised your case well, so I offer the following:

    The apostles & the Church they served began to observe the Lord's Day as the First Day of the Week in memory of their Saviour's resurrection. This New Day was to be in direct contrast & opposition to the Jewish Sabbath: a Sabbath which required strict adherence & a part of God's Commandments to them which they could never keep & only showed this fact & their sinful condition. So Jesus came to not only keep God's Laws perfectly, but to ultimately nail them to the Cross at His Death so that all who come to Him by faith can do so in obedience to His Spirit & not to the Letter which could only bring death & separation from Him.
  • Chris - in Reply on James 1
    Page 2.

    e. Acts 20:7. "first day of Sabbath in reckoning 7 Sabbaths to Pentecost". The Greek word, Sabbaton used here, doesn't necessarily need to mean the Jewish Sabbath, as this word is used elsewhere with the meaning of 'week or weeks'. Refer to Mark 16:1 & 16:2. Clearly, v1 refers to the Jewish Sabbath & v2 to the 'first of weeks' = first day of the week = Sunday. So too, in Matthew 28:1: Sabbath + Week; Mark 16:9; Jn 20:1,19; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor 16:2: all used the Gk. Sabbaton referring to week & not Sabbath.

    f. 1 Cor 16:2. Literally translated: "Upon the first day of the Sabbaton (week), each one should lay by him (i.e. on his own, in private, in quietness, without show or fanfare) & store aside..". The instruction here is that the believer, in consideration of the 'poor saints', should as part of the day of worship & rest from their labours, along with the giving of their freewill offerings to the assembly, to also put aside these special gifts for the poor. This was so there wasn't a mad rush to do a collection at the last minute & even take away from the sanctity of the day.

    g. Rev 1:10. To remain consistent with other references to the first day of the week, we can't change the reference to the Lord's Day in Rev 1:10 to read "Day of the Lord". That would be forcing an unreasonable application to a simple reading of the verse. John was "in the spirit on the Lord's Day", not "in the spirit towards the Day of the Lord".
  • Chris - in Reply on James 1
    Page 1.

    Greg, just to respond to that which you've now raised, instead of re-hashing what I've shared earlier:

    a. if you're referring to Gen 2:3, then I agree that God rested from His Labours & sanctified that day but it wasn't declared as a Sabbath until the giving of the Law. What Scripture from the OT do you use to support: "This Law was established for ALL to obey and enjoy?"

    b. The 10 Commandments, as God's requirements, can never be abolished: "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." ( Rom 7:12). It was perfectly fulfilled by Jesus at His Coming & fully discharged at His Death & Resurrection.

    c. I don't follow the 10 Commandments as they don't have any bearing, nor could have, on my Christian life. However, lest you think that I've adopted an antinomian stance, my subjection is not to the Law given to Israel, which only brought death ( Rom 7:10,11), but to the Law of the Life-giving Spirit ( Rom 8:2).

    d. I fully agree that Jesus, in His Coming, fulfilled OT prophecy & I also agree that Faith without Works is dead. This 'Works' cannot refer to keeping the Law but of other practical evidence of real, saving Faith. However, it is interesting that you quote Gal 3:11,12. This passage specifically states, from v10, that those who maintain the 'working of the law' in their lives are under a curse as none can obey the Law to the letter; therefore, man cannot be justified by the Law - it is of Faith - and "Christ has come to redeem us from the curse of the Law" (v13). I realize that Paul was referring to possibly the Judaizers who wanted to promote this fusion of Law & Grace which opposed the pure Gospel of Christ, but doesn't it then apply to anyone who wants to support this 'obedience to the Law'?
  • Greg - in Reply on James 1
    Chris,

    I appreciate your comments and thoughts on this matter.

    The many different views and ideas that come from this type of discussion are valuable to the overall understanding of Scripture.

    I will leave you with this concerning the Seventh Day vs. the First Day.

    I will hold to my understanding that if God or Jesus wanted us to change His day of rest, They would have made it abundantly clear. Correct interpretation of Scripture will justify a position. Any application to other thoughts or ideas may be welcome, but it cannot alter the interpretation. Inference is not the best way to justify a position. I have to remind myself of this all the time.

    If Christ foretold us ALL THINGS ( Mark 13:23), why did He not clearly explain this changing of the 7th day to us as everything else we needed to know was.

    Acts 18:4 can be used as an example that after Christ died, and rose from the dead, Paul was continually teaching in the synagogues on every Sabbath day, to both Greeks and Jews.

    I believe that there is no particular day in which you worship more than any other day. That is a 7 day a week plan.

    I believe that one day out of seven (the 7th day) the body should rest (as per instruction by our heavenly Father).

    According to our current (Gregorian) 365 day calendar, the days slide (so to speak). For instance, your birthday might be on a Monday this year, but will slide to Tuesday (or possibly Wednesday) the following year.

    So then, technically, this year's Sunday was last year's Saturday.

    Is it Sunday because we are told so?

    Among the findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls was the book of Enoch.

    The book of Enoch contains the priestly Solar Calendar (ch. 72, 82). It is a 364 day calendar based on 52 seven day weeks.

    It is a perfect solar priestly calendar used by the Israelites for thousands of years. This amazing calendar resets every year.

    The DSS are a wealth of (seemingly untapped) information for Biblical students.
  • Chris - in Reply on James 1
    Greg, again, I appreciate your ongoing comments here & fully realize & accept that we both have our own understanding on this matter basing it on the Word.

    I think that you will agree that there are many things in the Word that are either not fully explained or require us to make inferences to try & bring together: especially on eschatology, to which there are numerous divergent opinions, many of them well supported. So, my issue is not whether a believer chooses to keep Saturday as their day of rest & worship, to the exclusion of any other day; my concern is to the ramifications of that belief, i.e. if a Saturday (Sabbath) is not recognized, then what is the result to the believer & before God?

    Col 2:16: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days". So, it seems clear that 'in Christ', the believer is free to do a number of things, including appointing his worship day & this should not be a cause for judgement or division. "All are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ". When in ministry in Pakistan, believers there were compelled to have Friday as their day of worship, simply because of the Muslim holy day & generally people worked for six days in the week. This felt strange at first, but it was after all a day set aside to worship the true God & an opportunity to minister. We could have refused to do so, saying that only the Sabbath or a Sunday is holy & to be observed. So I ask, what then are the implications to those who don't keep the Sabbath, just as I have mentioned to those who insist on it ( Gal 3:10-12)? Is it just another sin that is to be repented of, or a divider of those who are granted eternal life & those who are rejected?

    I can't get into the 'solar calendar' argument: in the light of my understanding, the actual days are unimportant for worship & it would only lead to a strange observance of days given the calendars we now need to abide with.
  • Greg - in Reply on James 1
    Chris,

    Page 2

    As Paul states in Hebrews 4:11: "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS."

    When did God rest? The 7th day.

    When did Jesus rest? The 7th day.

    When did the Apostles rest AFTER CHRIST DIED? The 7th day.

    Was Peter wrong for observing the health laws laid out by God in the book of Leviticus well AFTER Christ had died? Why was he following these laws if ALL had been fulfilled in Christ ( Acts 10:12)?

    God explained what is clean and unclean. Did Christ make all unclean food clean again? Answer: No. But I am not going to judge a new Christian (in meat) for eating a ham sandwich; however I will politely and gently point him to Leviticus 11.

    "ALL" has not been fulfilled, therefore the LAW still exists. ( Matthew 5:18).

    The student of God's word needs to be clear as to what "ORDINANCES" ( Ephesians 215, Colossians 2:14) have been taken out of the way (such as blood sacrifice) and what LAWS (7th day, health) are still in effect.

    To answer your questions:

    All believers look to take one day off a week, per order of God. I don't think anyone is condemned for trying to understand it as clearly as possible. As I said over and over, I am not the judge and ignorance is not a sin.

    Could the 7th day vs. the 1st day be, as you state, "a possible divider of those that are granted eternal life from those that are rejected," I would reply that the ONLY thing that will not be forgiven you in the flesh is if you reject the Holy Spirit from speaking through you if and when the time comes.

    On a side note Chris, I appreciate your feedback and I am amazed at your ability to respond to various people at the same time. These comments and replies take me forever to generate.
  • Chris - in Reply on James 1
    Page 3.

    So, I suppose that's why Paul encouraged believers not to judge one another over various matters ( Col 2:16) which are a shadow of things to come, as each one led by the Spirit does according to his belief & conviction. So, No, I don't ascribe to the 10 Commandments, but His Spirit in me I know takes me far beyond them & to all who are led of the Spirit of God.

    And by the way, which calendar do you follow & how does that impact in your daily life?

    Also, Col 2:14 & Eph 2:15: the Gk is 'dogmasin', meaning 'an opinion, or a public decree': a little open-ended.

    May the Lord help us in the study of His Word & I appreciate your time.
  • Chris - in Reply on James 1
    Page 2.

    g. what then is the response to those who require obedience to God's Laws (for both Jew & Gentile) & also to enjoy Christ's salvation? If we keep the Law, then we are bound to it & its demands (Js 2:10). If we belong to Christ through His Gift of Salvation, then we are bound to His Spirit Who imputes God's Laws in our hearts. Rom 8:1-5: I see the key words here (as pertaining to our discussion) as "the righteousness of the Law" (v4).

    Someone has said that there were 600 Laws given for the Jews to obey. I agree that the Law is no way negated or abolished, but the whole essence of that Law, was to bring guilt & condemnation so that Israel might look to God in faith knowing that their ability to keep the Law failed before God. And now, that same Law, but no longer by the letter, is imputed into the believers' hearts enabling them to know, understand & obey them by the guidance & power of the Spirit. Will it still be the 10 Commandments for us to obey? What sayeth the Spirit of God to our hearts? Surely it will be the righteousness of the Law, that which surmounts the letter. Just as the Jew knew the Law forbad adultery, but that Law didn't stop him from what Jesus spoke of in Mt 5:28. Jesus spoke of the Law's righteousness, & this Law is in our hearts that we might be convicted of it. The Jew knew that the Sabbath was Holy with its requirements: the Spirit speaks of the blessed rest we have in Christ, one now for those who have come to Christ ( Mt 11:28,29), & the rest yet to come ( Heb 4:1-11).
  • Chris - in Reply on James 1
    Hi again Greg & thanks for your input & trouble you've taken over this very important subject. While our travels are restricted because of this pandemic & being in retirement, I find that I can give some 'extra' time to valuable discussions such as these, as it also helps me focus on specific Scriptures which I might have ordinarily glossed over.

    Again, you've raised a number of questions worthy for thought but I will focus on the foundational aspect on which I base my belief & premise: Is the Christian commanded or obliged to keep the Law?

    a. to whom was the Law given? Only to God's elect, Israel: ( Lev 26:46).

    b. why was it given? For their good ( Deut 10:13); to reveal Himself to His people ( Lev 19:2, Deut 31:12,13); to set Israel apart (sanctify them) as a witness to other nations ( Lev 20:8, Deut 28:1, 9-10); and to reveal humanity's need of a Saviour ( Rom 3:20, 7:7, 8:3,4).

    c. did not Jesus obey the Law? As a Jew, He fulfilled it perfectly ( Mt 5:17) & the Law will remain unchanged till it reaches its intended purpose (v 18).

    d. if that is so, then why did Jesus have to come & give His life for mankind? What the Law was unable to do, only Christ could do ( Rom 8:3).

    e. then what did Christ's sacrifice do to the Law? To those who still keep the Law, they have to obey it perfectly, or be guilty of all (Js 2:10). To those who are convinced that they are guilty under the law, find forgiveness by faith in Christ, apart from the Law ( Rom 3:28).

    f. can a Christian then still be under (keep) the Law (putting himself under Jewish Law) & have salvation through Christ's Blood? Impossible, for the Law could only reveal one's sin which lead to death. But now all who are in Christ (Jew & Gentile) are delivered from that law of death, believing & serving God in the spirit & not according to the letter ( Rom 7:5,6).
  • Greg - in Reply on James 1
    Chris, Solar Calendar

    Page 4

    The spring equinox is also called the "Great Gate"

    Kings were anointed on the 1st day of the 7th month (Yom Teruah)

    God so loved NUMBERS that He named an entire Book by them!

    Enoch lived 365 years. His son Methuselah lived 187 years and had Lamech. (There are 187 days between the spring and fall equinox).

    364-187 = 177

    There are 177 days between any 6 month lunar time period. There are 177 days between Passover and Tabernacles.

    Lamech lived 182 years and begat Noah. There are 182 days in a year.

    Lamech lived 777 years. 364 x 2 = 728 (+49 = 777) Jared lived 162 years and begat Enoch.

    Sorry, I had a feeling that would happen. Hope you enjoyed it!

    This year the Sabbath is on Monday.
  • Stanjett - in Reply on James 1
    The sabbath day is ALWAYS on saturday.
  • Greg - in Reply on James 1
    Stanjett,

    Is Christmas always on a Sunday? No

    Is your birthday on the same day every year? No

    Why is Saturday always the 7th day? Because we are told so.

    The Gregorian Calendar that we follow does not allow for Saturday to consistently be the 7th day.
  • Greg - in Reply on James 1
    Chris Solar Calendar

    Page 3

    The "Calendar week" is days 4 thru 3 while the "Creation week" is days 1 thru 7

    Sabbath days remain constant on the Enoch calendar in relation to the spring equinox; but they will rotate on the Gregorian calendar. We now have the privilege of these (Sacred) Books, look at ( Micah 6:8).

    Enoch lived 365 years (and possibly .242)

    The spring equinox is the great equalizer of the calendar and is the leap day that rectifies the calendar every year (day 365.242), look at (Ps. Ch. 19)

    March 20, 2019 (sunrise to sunrise) was the 365th day of the solar year (the day of the spring equinox), making March 21, 2019 the first day of the first month of the New Year (and the 4th day of the week)

    The 364 day Enoch solar calendar runs off the 365.242 day solar cycle

    When does the day start? Look at ( Gen 1:16, 18, 19:33, 34, Ex. 10:13, 16:22-27,

    We are specifically commanded to use the SUN as the sign for days, Sabbaths, months, years, Sabbaths of years, jubilees, and feasts, and for all seasons of the year.

    The LUNAR cycle for the year is 354 days

    The Enoch solar calendar is 364 days (+ 365th and day of spring equinox)

    The moon is to be for light upon the earth at night ( Gen. 1:14, Ps. 136:9, Jer. 31:35), for seasons ( Ps. 104:19), and for a witness to the covenant of David ( Ps. 89:37).

    The ONLY calendar that can reckon Daniel's 70 weeks is the Enoch calendar.

    A breakdown of the Enoch calendar

    1) 12 month, 30 day month, 360 days

    2) + 4 intercalary days (+ 1 occasional leap day) = 365 days

    3) 364 / 7 = 52

    4) Four intercalary days are to be lived but not reckoned, same with the occasional leap day.

    5) Intercalary day (day of remembrance) is inserted at the end of each 3 month cycle.

    6) 1st day of the 1st month is ALWAYS the day AFTER the spring equinox.

    7) 1st day of the 1st month ALWAYS resets to the 4th day of the week.

    8) Enoch lived 365 years.
  • David LetscherGreg - in Reply on James 1
    Chris, Solar calendar

    Page 2

    The "course of Abia" ( Luke 1:5) is the 8th of 24 priestly courses (watches) that were followed by Aaron and his sons (priest line) as given in 1 Chronicles 24:10. This is the course Zacharias the father of John the Baptist was following.

    The first day of the first month according to the Enoch calendar is ALWAYS the 4th (FOURTH) day of the week. A check for this can be found in the book of Jubilees where it states that the Festival of Shavuot is ALWAYS the 15th day of the 3rd month and is ALWAYS the FIRST day of the week. So if you count backwards to the 1st day of the 1st month it will ALWAYS be the 4th day of the week.

    (Enoch 72:32-34) states that there is a separation day that is to occur at the spring equinox which separates each year. It is the day after day 364 and it does NOT have a day attached to it. It is the time from the end of the 364th day until the spring equinox. The day after the 364th day is intercalated.

    The Enoch calendar is a holy priestly calendar that is based on 364 days ONLY. The extra time until the equinox is used to calibrate the New Year. That time is not counted. The calendar is perfectly rectified every year.

    The Enoch calendar is 364 days EXACTLY look at (Enoch 74:10, 12, 81:6, 7, 11, Jubilees 6:32, 38) The solar cycle is 365.242 days.

    All ancient (and current) calendars are generally reckoned upon a twelve month 30 day cycle with 5 days added.

    The SUN is the ONLY tool used to calibrate the calendar. The sun is the great sign on earth and highlights the Sabbath day and the spring equinox is the great calibration sign to mark the yearly cycle

    As stated above, the calendar resets every year on the 4th day of the 1st month. The 1st day of the 1st month is always the 4th day of the week. The 4th day of the 1st month is always a Sabbath
  • Chris - in Reply on James 1
    Greg, that was very informative & thank you for your troubles in explaining the Solar Calendar from the Book of Enoch & other references. I guess I've never looked into this matter since I don't regard the Apocryphal books as part of the Canon of Scripture. I can see a lot of interesting information therein (such as you have explained), but in all honesty, I could never reference them or use them in ministry. But your time given to explain that is appreciated though I don't understand everything you said, & agree that that is probably the more accurate method to determine our true calendar days.

    With that said & this year's Sabbath falling on a Monday, how does this fact affect you in keeping the Sabbath (in respect to conducting life & business which follows the Gregorian calendar)? Or, would today's Jews keep the Sabbath according to the Solar Calendar? Surely, they must adhere to the Gregorian to conduct business as they would be 'all over the place' in every aspect of life. What you have presented is mind-boggling as I've never considered folk working with two systems like this, if at all.
  • Greg - in Reply on James 1
    Chris, Enoch Calendar

    Page 2

    For example, 1 En 1 is a midrash of Deuteronomy 33. The content, particularly detailed descriptions of fallen angels, would also be a reason for rejection from the Hebrew canon at this period - as illustrated by the comments of Trypho the Jew when debating with Justin Martyr on this subject:

    "The utterances of God are holy, but your expositions are mere contrivances, as is plain from what has been explained by you; nay, even blasphemies, for you assert that angels sinned and revolted from God.

    Christianity- By the 4th century, the Book of Enoch was mostly excluded from Christian canons.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls are not the Apocryphal books.

    From all that I know and read concerning the DSS, they only reinforce (and in some cases shed new light on) the various Books of the Bible.
  • Chris - in Reply on James 1
    Greg,

    You: "why would people think that the 7th day or the 1st day or whatever day they follow would not change also?"

    I suppose that we're aware of this fact but has little effect to any observance of the day. Sabbath is not an issue for me as I don't recognize it, & for those that do then it would be a case of "The sabbath being made for man, and not man for the sabbath" in respect of its meaning & observance rather than aiming for the actual day which may not be possible for all. But if you're able to adjust your weekly cycle for it, then it certainly makes it easier for you.

    You: "From all that I know and read concerning the DSS, they only reinforce (and in some cases shed new light on) the various Books of the Bible."

    I'm sure there would be much value in considering the DSS, but as with anything relating to the Word, I rather err on the side of caution, & just focus on the Bible for my requirements. In any case, in our evangelical circles, to use extra-biblical references in ministry or in debate, would generally generate some serious questioning to one's Christian beliefs & capabilities & being a prime candidate for apostasy: I hope I'm not being too dramatic, as even our Pastor receives some flak, whether verbally or by email, after his Sunday messages when someone picks up on 'error'. So how would one survive using anything extra-biblical! And I can't change Fellowships - they are hard to find. But I thank you for all that extra information, and I've now learned a new word as well: midrash.
  • Greg - in Reply on James 1
    Chris, Book of Enoch worth taking a look at.

    The 7th day Sabbath that I try to follow generally concerns 1) No servile work 2) not buying or selling / 3) resting 4) doing good works 5) honoring God.

    3 and 4 I try to do every day.

    I realize that I could be totally wrong about all of this. I don't think that God will fault me for trying though?

    I am in the favorable position of being able to adjust for the (generally) yearly shift of the 7th day due to the Gregorian calendar.

    Just as our birth day shifts every year, why would people think that the 7th day or the 1st day or whatever day they

    follow would not change also?

    More information concerning the Book of Enoch:

    Paraphrased from Wikipedia:

    The Book of Enoch covers topics on the solar priestly calendar, origins of demons and giants, why some angels fell from heaven, an explanation of why the Great Flood was morally necessary, and the thousand-year reign of the Messiah.

    The Book of Jude speaks of these fallen angels and Enoch is mentioned as having prophesied against them ( Jude 1: 14-15).

    Various Aramaic fragments found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as Koine Greek and Latin fragments, were proof that The Book of Enoch was known by Jews and early Christians.

    This book was also quoted by some 1st and 2nd century authors as in the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs.

    Judaism- Although evidently widely known during the development of the Hebrew Bible canon, Enoch was excluded from both the formal canon of the Tanakh and the typical canon of the Septuagint and therefore, also from the writings known today as the Deuterocanon.

    One possible reason for Jewish rejection of the book might be the textual nature of several early sections of the book that make use of material from the Torah;
  • Greg - in Reply on James 1
    Chris, The Enoch Solar Priestly Calendar

    As far as calendars go, I have been involved for the last few years with trying to follow the Enoch calendar as presented in the books of Enoch from the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS).

    I will try not to get into too much information, but I find it to be very interesting.

    The recurrent theme that is most striking throughout all of the DSS is the SOLAR CALENDAR!

    Look at the first book of Enoch, in ch. 72, and in ch. 82 (column 27) are words concerning an ancient solar calendar.

    It is stated that Enoch brought the calendar from heaven, claiming a very ancient origin to it, learning it from the angels. Enoch spent many years in heaven learning the 364 day solar priestly calendar and spent one year on earth teaching it to his son Methuselah, who taught it to his son, and so on. In the time of Abraham, Melchezadok was the one that brought the calendar back up to heaven?

    The Book of Enoch describes how the Holy place has 2 dimensions, heavenly and earthly. There are 7 heavenly sanctuaries corresponding to the 1 earthly Mount Zion, one Temple, and one chariot of the cherubim. In heaven there are 7 firmaments, 7 sanctuaries, 7 temples, and 7 chariots of the cherubim.

    In the Book, Angels are called Priests of Sacrifices; not sacrificing animals, but incense and liturgy. The order of the sacrificial liturgy corresponds to the order of the sacrifice in the Temple; i.e.- songs of the Sabbath liturgy. Angels are taking care of proper sacrifice for what is not being properly sacrificed on earth.

    In the extra Psalms found in the DSS, it is said that David authored 364 songs for each day of the year. David authored 52 songs for each Sabbath of the year. David authored 18 songs for each of the holy days of the year.

    Book of Jubilees- Noah stayed in the Ark for 364 days.
  • Greg - in Reply on James 1
    Chris,

    Page 2

    e / f / g) Again, I agree with you that Christ came to fulfill the Law.

    However, I believe that the "Law" was the blood (and certain ceremonial) "ordinances" Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:20, that His blood on the cross made acceptable "once for all" Hebrews 10:10. As Matthew 5:18 states; "till ALL be fulfilled."

    ALL has not been fulfilled yet. The rest of the Law stands.

    I try my best to follow the Law. However I look at Romans 3:28 and Romans 7:5-6 in this way:

    What sets us apart from the Law is our ability to be forgiven (no longer through blood sacrifice by a priest on an altar) but through Jesus. Forgiveness has to do with sin. I don't need forgiveness if I have not sinned. Sin has to do with BREAKING THE LAW. Forgiveness is what leads to redemption, and EVERYONE needs forgiveness EVERYDAY. When we sin we put ourselves under the Law; I don't see how we can't.

    The following of the LAW and the doing of good WORKS will lead us straight into the GRACE of God and His only Begotten.

    I will send you the Enoch calendar info. on another page
  • Greg - in Reply on James 1
    Chris,

    Great feedback as always:

    A foundational aspect which I find myself defending (as the minority position) is the debate between Law vs. Grace as well as Works vs. Grace.

    I find myself in the position of believing that we are in need of the Law. We are also in need of Works. And most of all, we are in need of the Grace given to us through faith in Jesus Christ.

    I will give my opinion based upon your alphabetic structure

    a) I believe that we are ALL "God's "elect,"

    Israel is "elect" for all the reasons you mention.

    Christians are "elect" because Scripture says so ( Colossians 3:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:4).

    b) I agree, and will add that God NEVER intended or believed Israel could fulfill the Law. The Law was given to Israel (and all who cared to follow) for proper ceremonial worship, and for guidance, and for correction.

    c) I agree and will add that Jesus not only fulfilled the Law perfectly as a Jew, but also as a man.

    d) While I can (partially) agree with you that Christ came to fulfill the Law (of ordinances, i.e. blood sacrifice, not the entire Law), I believe that the MAIN REASON Jesus was promised by God to all of mankind can be found all the way back in Genesis 3:15. At that particular point in time, Adam and Eve were the only two people on the planet to have partaken in sin.

    God knew that Israel would backslide. That is why the Savior was promised right from the beginning of the fall of man, thousands of years before the nation of Israel ever existed.

    The promise of Genesis 3:15, however, has to do with the DEATH of Jesus, and the result of His crucifixion can be found in Hebrews 2:14.

    "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"

    That is the PRIMARY reason Jesus was promised, and is the (partial) fulfillment of that promise of Genesis 3:15; partial because Satan is not dead yet.
  • Carleton - in Reply on James 1
    An experience as a thief. Correctly I was judged to die. By mercy, I was found near the Savior's Cross, and I saw the Lamb's life and witnessed his Word and Blood and believed and cried out in Repentance. By his Word I was saved and entered into His rest in the Sabbath. On the following day, the first day of the week, which would be the eighth day, I awoke with Him in the Tomb, laid aside my old life and with a circumcised heart I followed Jesus out of the tomb in a risen life and was directed to meet with brethren of a like precious faith.
  • Greg - in Reply on James 1
    Chris,

    I interpret Colossians 2:16 differently than you do. I believe this verse concerns those that are weaker in faith and in understanding of Scripture are not to be condemned or judged by those that are stronger in faith.

    I completely disagree with your belief that Paul is telling us that "the believer is free to do a number of things, including appointing his worship day." Do you tell people that they do not need to understand or follow the OT because it has been replaced? Dangerous stuff there!

    Did Christ come to obliterate the Law, (our schoolmaster)? Absolutely not! How do you justify your condemnation of O.T. law?

    Do you think that you are not under the 10 Commandments? You are under the law if you break the law. And that is every one every day. Last I checked, only Jesus didn't break any laws, ever?

    Concerning the Sabbath, we are plainly told that Christ became our Sabbath and our rest is EVERY DAY, not just one day per week ( Hebrews 4:1-11). That is what I believe! ( 1 Corinthians 5:7). And that is why I don't care when you or anyone else observes the day of rest within a week. As I have repeatedly stated, I'm not the judge!

    I would think that people who value understanding Scripture as clearly as possible (as you seem to) would want to use all available resources for this. If you want to rest on a Friday or a Sunday because it is EASIER and convenient and that is what everyone else is doing, that is your choice.

    I was not trying to get into a "solar calendar argument," but your dismissive comments concerning the DSS, and your idea that days are "unimportant for worship" and that we "NEED" to abide by the current (Pope Gregory) calendar sounds to me like someone that is "in the world" and has closed his mind off to any new understanding? Are you fearful to find out something that might be different from your understanding?
  • Seventh day is sabbath - in Reply on James 1
    Chris:

    a. The Sabbath was given to man Mark 2:27 at creation Genesis 2:2-3 it's not a day that God required just for the Israelite's to keep, which is why the 4th commandment starts with "remember" it is because the children of Israel had forgotten through hundreds of years of slavery in Egypt.

    b. Jesus came to this world not to destroy the law and the prophets Matt. 5:17, The law (10 commandments) says to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

    The breaking of bread in Acts 20:7 is referring to eating (food) (see Acts 20:11)

    1 Cor. 16:2 the "first day of the week" Paul is referring to putting aside your offerings (collection for the saints) starting on the first day of the week (Sunday) (see 1 Cor.16:1)

    Revelation 1:10 John was in vision on the sabbath (Lord's day is the sabbath, For the son of man is Lord, even of the sabbath day. (see Matthew 12:8)

    c. What was nailed to the cross was the "ceremonial laws" not the 10 commandments. In (Matt.27:51) the veil of the temple was rent in two when Jesus died on the cross, the ceremonial laws that God had required since sin came into the world (sacrificing animals ect) was no longer needed because the ultimate sacrifice had just been made and that was the shedding of blood of a sinless Jesus on the cross.

    Matthew 5:18 One jot or one tittle shall not wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter into the gates of the city.
  • Chris - in Reply on James 1
    Thank you for your comments, "Seventh day is sabbath". I always maintain that if the foundation is not settled, then anything built thereon will be shaky. So, referring to your first comment: "The Sabbath was given to man Mark 2:27 at creation Genesis 2:2-3 it's not a day that God required just for the Israelite's to keep, which is why the 4th commandment starts with "remember" it is because the children of Israel had forgotten through hundreds of years of slavery in Egypt."

    It seems that your understanding of those Scriptures in Genesis & Mark applied not only to Israel but to all mankind, or more specifically to the 'other sheep' that were to come into Christ's fold. To this I disagree, for the following reasons:

    a. Exodus 31:13-17 & Ezek 20:12. Clear references as to who should keep the Sabbath & that it was given as not only a day of ceasing from all labours, but as importantly, a sign of the relationship between God & Israel. It was never intended to include Gentiles or the Church in such a requirement.

    b. Galatians 3:19. Shows that both the validity & finality of the Law (the whole Law) was fully realized at the death of Jesus Christ.

    c. Matthew 5:17. Jesus demonstrated that He alone could fulfil the whole requirements of the Law & none else. The Law was given because of "transgressions" but none could obey it fully to please God & satisfy its demands, since "if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law" ( Gal 3:21). So no Law could bring righteousness, even as a certain ruler learned ( Lk 18:18-24). If he believed he obeyed all of God's Law, how did Jesus pick him up on that point of selling all & following him? That man just had a quick lesson to find out that he in fact didn't obey it perfectly: he broke the very first commandment by placing his wealth, & maybe family & other assets, before his love for God.

    How then can we rest on the Law for anything except to know God's Mind & Purposes?



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