Only God the Father knows the time. Jesus is seated at Gods right hand making intercession for the saints. When it is time God will announce its time. Jesus (our Bridegroom) will stand and call up His saints (His Bride). We all will attend a wedding feast. At the end of that...I believe that Revelation goes into 2nd gear. Part is happening now: the oceans are dying. The stars are dimming. The earth is heating up. The Holy Spirit said it's not global warming. We have fire, floods, drought. It affects our economy. We now have an illness no one knows how to cure. Wormwood is out there on its way here.
Israel is being pushed to accept a two state solution. God gave the land to Israel. Israel is back in their land and now LOVE their land and intend fully to defend it. There is a lot to look for the heartbeat of scripture.
You seem to believe in an unfulfilled 7 years in Daniel 9?
I used to till I realized Jesus died int he middle of the 70th week because of that word AFTER in the previous verse. Then I looked up Bible commentaries pre-1830 to find that almost all taught the same thing.
First 7 weeks or 49 years were fulfilled.
Then the 62 weeks or 434 years.
Then verse 26 says AFTER the 62 weeks but the 7 or 49 years are already fulfilled in the prophecy so Jesus didn't die before the 70th week but during.
We have turned the Messiah, context of the passage, into a future antichrist. This was never taught until 15 year old Margarette McDonald had her vision and prophetic utterance (big time charismatic/Irvingite) in 1829/1830.
At best, we have a 3 1/2 years to be fulfilled but I see it as fulfilled in 70AD because the Great Revolt lasted exactly 42 months and answers the WHY of General/Prince Titus in verse 26.
I do believe in a Dual Prophecy interpretation. What I mean by that most of 2/3rds of Matthew 24 was historically fulfilled AND much of that chapter was spoken to THAT generation but something similar will happen AGAIN in a fuller way, on a worldwide scale. For example, the word world (oikenume) in Matthew 24 means Roman Empire and the apostles did preach the gospel to the whole world (oikenume) by 70 AD so they fulfilled that but if you take a FULL preterist approach that is just as dangerous as taking a full futurist approach to scripture.
The word parousia in 1st Thess. 4:13-18 is the 2nd coming literally to earth. Paul puts the catching away (harpazo) AFTER the dead in Christ rise which is obviously THE resurrection and a twinkling of an eye BEFORE the physical return of Christ to establish His millennial reign. You should subscribe to my new youtube channel.
Good question. is there a 1 1/2 coming and then a 2nd coming? Jesus told us how the order of events are as
Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST first the TARES (WEEDS) tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (first the tares WEEDS get gathered, then wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?
Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
That seems right on to me. How did we all miss that? The tares are gathered before the wheat. Seems to me we have gone to God's Word with a lot of presuppositions from things we were taught early on in our walks. As far as I can tell, the tares are still here so HOW CAN THEY BE LEFT BEHIND if they are taken first? Help me see this.
Correct. Jesus is God. Merely was clothed in flesh; hence the phrase, GOD INCARNATE (God in the flesh). Color and race mean nothing to God. Joseph married an Egyptian and had two half-breed children Manasseh and Ephraim. The children of Israel came out of Egypt a mixed people from the very beginning.
There has always only been ONE people of God. This is exactly why I left pre-trib rapture teaching. It teaches more than one gospel, more than ONE way to be saved, and more than ONE people.
Yet the Bible teaches, there is ONE people of God in both the Old and New Testament.
One faith.
One Lord.
One baptism.
What's interesting is there is more Jewish blood in Palestine proven with TWO different DNA testings by two different scientists of Jewish descent yet the pre-tribbers are unaware of so many things and so many have hatred in their hearts for these people which is murder. I can't be a part of that body of Christ as it is cancerous.
Jesus was a Jew from the middle east, so he likely had the skin tone as most everyone does in that area. Also, people walked outside everywhere so he likely was very tan. But I wish people weren't so tied into race all the time as if they're hoping Jesus is a certain skin tone of their desires so they feel a certain way or belong to a certain fictional club. When people think about race so much, talk about it, treat others differently because of it, they have become the dictionary definition of racists, which is the vary thing a most of them claimed they wanted to avoid.
I know what race Jesus was and I read it in my bible I was just making a point I love those of all races and refuse to be called racist thank u very much
People do get targeted for their color in this culture. There's a lot of anger there. We are called to be mediators. In the 'family business' of reconciliation.
Appears that maybe Moses took some lip for marrying someone the sister rejected because of the color.
As Christians we have to be color blind. You can't pick and choose whom the Lord might say, "go talk to that one". We get crowns at Bema Seat. Jesus said EVERYONE is welcome. We just say, Yes Sir!
What race was Jesus? well maybe this shall explain. Revelation 1:14 - His [Jesus] HEAD head and his hairs were WHITE white like wool, as WHITE white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass,
[Brass is made of copper which is REDDISH GOLDEN, not black] as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Bible book Song of Solomon 5:10 - My beloved is WHITE white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.
Bible book Lamentations 4:7 - Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were WHITER whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:
Robert, 1 Thes 4:15, 17 refer to this phrase you are sharing here. We understand this phrase to actually speak about the Rapture of the Church, i.e. when Christ comes for us, the dead in Christ will rise first & then we who are alive & on Earth will then go to be with Him. The apostle Paul gave these comforting words to the believers there, because some were despairing that those Christians alive would get translated & the dead believers' bodies would not. So, Jesus will take into account all who have been saved by faith - sadly many who think that they were saved, will be left behind to face the wrath of God upon mankind.
Hi Chris, Some good things you said there. What I am trying to get people to see is that 1. rapture is a verb not a noun but I understand in our day and age we made it a noun and that is what we are used to saying.
But I see those words UNTO the COMING in there. And if we are alive and REMAIN (SURVIVE IN THE GREEK) UNTO (MEANING RESERVED) the COMING how are we already gone? The word coming is parousia which is the literal physical coming of Christ to earth to set up his kingdom. Why are we ignoring that word? Did God make a mistake?
Can you do me a favor and take my poll on my new youtube channel PRE-TRIB RAPTURE: TRUE OR FALSE? I couldnt' find any poll like this ever done. I'm trying to figure out why we in America came to certain beliefs. It will take two minutes to fill out in the comments section.
d. The use of the word "Mystery". Whenever used in the Bible, it denoted something now revealed that wasn't known before, whether fully or partially. E.g. Rom 11:25 (Gentiles would be saved, hence Israel's blindness); Eph 1:9 (Jew & Gentiles would be one in Christ); Eph 3:3 (Gentiles would be fellow-heirs, partaking in the same promise); Eph 5:32 (Christ & His Church alluded to a husband/wife relationship); Col 1:26,27 (Christ indwelling Gentiles); 2 Thes 2:7 (a type of wickedness not seen or imagined before which will be evident in the Anti-Christ); and to the Rapture: 1 Cor 15:51 which is Paul's message to the Corinthians as was to the Thessalonians: that this Mystery, that was not revealed before (whether by Prophecy or by Jesus), is now revealed to the Church. And this was not just a prelude to the Second Coming of Christ, but an indication that as before, in olden times, God would spare His people (now the Church & not the Jew), from His Great Anger that would come to all unbelievers.
e. 1 Thes 5:9. Paul speaking about the sudden appearing of the Day of the Lord urges the believers not to be slothful but to await that Day. Why? Because "God has not appointed us to wrath (His Wrath upon the World), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". And this 'salvation' I understand is the saving of His Church from the Wrath of God.
P.S. I'll have a look at your YT channel. Thank you.
The mystery was revealed throughout the whole Old Testament when God spoke through the prophets of the Gentiles being saved. As a matter of fact Abraham was a Gentile. Gentiles have always been grafted in even under the old covenant from the time of Egypt at the very beginning, to the time of Esther when many converted to following the God fo the Jews, and many other passages. Always been ONE people. Only difference is they had to wait for the new covenant to begin IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME. Abraham was of Syrian descent as he was a close cousin of "Laban the Syrian".
Was not Jesus revealed tot he Jews FIRST thus fulfilling over 300 prophecies? To fulfill 8 prophecies is a mathematical improbability according tot he mathematicians would be like picking the right atom out of the entire universe and when you bump that up to 9 it most likely doubles. We are talking 300 to 330 fulfilled prophecies.
Jews have been being saved and been preached to for 2,000 years. Always ONE people.
In Romans Paul says only a remnant will be saved when he quotes Isaiah and Revelation 11 confirms that only a remnant give glory to God at the time of the 7th trumpet. It doesn't say they got saved but only that they give glory to God. That is who I think will repopulate the planet for the 1,000 year reign of Christ. The modern Sanhedrin are pushing the noah hide laws right now upon all the Gentiles and they are the only people that will be exempt from having to abide by them. They are talmudic laws and not Biblical at all.
If the Bible says to preach to Jerusalem and Judea first, how do you interpret Matthew 21:43?
Good Morning Chris. The word ekklesia that we use in the New Testament and put the word CHURCH in our English Bibles also means ASSEMBLY or CONGREGATION as you can see below. It would have been better translated as assembly or congregation which is what the people of God in the old Testament were always called.
G1577
ekklesia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
Total KJV occurrences: 115
did not the gospel already go to Israel already and first at that?
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
The gospel was originally preached to Adam and Eve. This is called the Protoevangelium in theology.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
God elected or CALLED Abraham and his descendents to be the preachers but they failed during the time of Christ and God gave the kingdom to another nation- a heathen pagan Gentile nation. No one will answer me on what they think this verse means below after Jesus gives the 7 woes against the Pharisees and Jerusalem. These passages were NEVER taught by any of the famous pre-trib teachers I sat under
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
G1484 (greek for NATION)
ethnos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usuall
Robert, I agree with your understanding of 'Church'. I had mentioned a similar definition to another enquirer previously.
1. "The gospel was originally preached to Adam and Eve. This is called the Protoevangelium in theology." I don't know about this type of theology, but I'm clear that the Gospel was never preached to A & E. If you refer to Gen 3:15, this was prophecy about what would happen in the future (Christ, Satan, the Cross) & not the Gospel to save them. Prophecy, as you know, can also bring some dire news, but the Gospel only gave both the news & the way to be saved.
2. "No one will answer me on what they think this verse means below after Jesus gives the 7 woes against the Pharisees and Jerusalem. These passages were NEVER taught by any of the famous pre-trib teachers I sat under." I had made my comment on this passage in my page 2.
Mt 21:43. I've never associated this Scripture to the preaching of the Gospel first to Jerusalem & Judea. The Gospel was first to be brought to them as it should (God's care & concern for His people, the Jew, as well as preaching at home before radiating the Word to other nations). But that "the Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof", I understand that Israel was privileged to be God's chosen & to receive His Promises, but in their rejection ( Mt 31:33-41), their inheritance (the Kingdom of God) would no longer be their expectation, but to the nations that bring Him His fruits, unlike the husbandmen (in the parable) who did wickedly.
So the 'mystery' I refer to (unless it can be correctly shown in the OT), is something that was not revealed (whether in whole or in part), but which Paul has now shown to the Church. He may have received this revelation during his time in Arabia ( Gal 1:17), we're not sure. Nevertheless, this is something 'special' that is to happen to the Church that was unknown earlier, to which every believer can anticipate & longingly wait for.
Bob, I take your point that in the case of Abraham, conversion of Gentiles in Esther's day, Laban & other numerous examples, there is a clear assimilation of Gentiles into Jewish lineage. However, when I refer to Paul's use of the word 'Mystery', this is not what I see. I see that he speaks only of the fact that both Jew & Gentile would one day be brought as one, as Christ's Church. We can't presume that the OT Scriptures about Gentile assimilation has any reference to the Church, even looking forward. Is there any OT Scripture that reveals this fact that Jew (& Gentile incorporation into Jewish lineage) would one day belong to the Church - that they should wait for the 'New Covenant' that would allow for their descendants to be an equal part of Christ's Church? The closest one is Jer 31:31-34 (cf Heb 8:8-11), but this only speaks of them entering into a New Covenant with the LORD, but not of the 'mystery' of incorporation into the Church. The revelation of Jesus through over 300 prophecies is not the mystery I refer to here.
Hi Bob, I can understand how the word 'Rapture' can be used as a verb, but it is also quite rightly used as a noun, to describe an event that is yet to take place. Now, the problem: Is this event (Rapture) a separate 'snatching away of believers prior to the outpouring of Gods Wrath' or is it a part of Christ's Second Coming for His millennial reign, implying that believers will go through the Great Tribulation, but will be kept "from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." ( Rev 3:10)?
I understand the Gk. word "Parousia" to mean 'Presence or a Presence after an Absence, an Arrival'. So this certainly allows for 'a literal physical coming of Christ to set up His Kingdom', but I see that it can also speak of His Coming for His saints specifically. Actually, there are various aspects from the Word, which compel me to believe that there will be a removal of His people first before the Anger of the Lord is poured out. Most of these you will be aware of:
a. Gen 6-8. Noah & his family were saved at a time of God's Wrath upon the wicked.
b. Ex 7 ff. The children of Israel delivered from Pharaoh after God's judgement against Egypt.
c. Israel too suffered at times, only because of their disobedience to God, idolatry & many crimes.
YOU: Actually, there are various aspects from the Word, which compel me to believe that there will be a removal of His people first before the Anger of the Lord is poured out. Most of these you will be aware of:
ME: Sure your not pre-wrath? Tribulation of Satan which we are promised throughout the gospels and God's wrath on the wicked are two different things.
YOU: a. Genesis 6-8. Noah & his family were saved at a time of God's Wrath upon the wicked.
ME: They were not removed from the earth but protected.
YOU: b. Exodus 7 ff. The children of Israel delivered from Pharaoh after God's judgement against Egypt.
ME: Your sounding pre-wrath rapture to me.
YOU: c. Israel too suffered at times, only because of their disobedience to God, idolatry & many crimes.
ME: They and individuals also suffered for no good reason at all. Joseph suffered slavery and betrayed by brothers but God used it for His glory just one of many examples.Who am I to be better than Polycarp, John's disciple, who was tortured before being burned alive. Or James, or John the Baptist or all of the prophets who served God more than any of us ever will or the apostles who were martyred or John who was boiled but survived. I only wish pre-trib was true. Paul puts the harpazo AFTER the dead in Christ rise whcih is the resurrection and RIGHT WITH the parousia (physical return of the Lord).That word UNTO is very important in that passage. When we leave every word in there and don't add any words the passage is very clear. The word REMAIN means SURVIVE also.Survive what if we are gone? I had a woman tell me that if the pre-trib rapture isn't true than Jesus is a liar and no better than the devil but there are many clear verses that point to it not being true. Doctrine is based on clear verses, not unclear verses.Did you know Dr. Thomas Ice is trying to make the word apostasia a rapture word now? It is always used as ONE DEPARTING FROM THE FAITH. He knows there isn't one clear verse proving what he teaches
Just further comments to your reply to my first page: I believe in a pre-Trib. Rapture, in case that wasn't clear in my statements. However, I also feel that some good cases are there to support the other views, so I'm not dogmatic about this as I am about other 'Truths'.
1. Yes, I'm aware of our woes: the normal woes (some from the Enemy), the discipline of God to His children, & the Great Wrath of God upon the world. My examples of the saving of Noah & the children of Israel, were to show that God removes His children when His Anger is poured upon the world. You can call it 'protected' from His Wrath & as I see it both 'protected' & 'removal' are signified here.
2. True, many believers (& Israel) suffered terribly over the centuries & are still experiencing suffering, torture & martyrdom today, but this is not God's Wrath. This can come to any of us, especially to those "who live godly in Christ Jesus".
3. Again True, Harpazo & Parousia are together in the same verse, but the problem is that one looks at Harpazo as part of Christ's Second Coming & the other, as part of Christ's Coming, pre-Trib, for His Saints. Then the question: when do the dead in Christ rise? How many resurrections are there? Again, if there are two (post Christ), then does the Rapture make it a third resurrection? No, the Rapture is still part of the Mystery of the Coming of Christ: that this coming would be for His Church to remove them from the Great Wrath of God. No child of God is seen as having to experience God's Great Wrath - indeed, why should we suffer if we are His Children? But if we do wrong then we can expect His chastening ( Heb 12:5-11), but not to be a part of His Anger upon the world of unbelievers. This wouldn't make sense.
4. I agree, the word 'Remain' could be used as 'Survive' the Tribulation. However, the same could be said, if God's Wrath is never poured upon His own, then the remaining ones are those living & waiting during the 'Great Translation'.
Israel is being pushed to accept a two state solution. God gave the land to Israel. Israel is back in their land and now LOVE their land and intend fully to defend it. There is a lot to look for the heartbeat of scripture.
Nite yall
I used to till I realized Jesus died int he middle of the 70th week because of that word AFTER in the previous verse. Then I looked up Bible commentaries pre-1830 to find that almost all taught the same thing.
First 7 weeks or 49 years were fulfilled.
Then the 62 weeks or 434 years.
Then verse 26 says AFTER the 62 weeks but the 7 or 49 years are already fulfilled in the prophecy so Jesus didn't die before the 70th week but during.
We have turned the Messiah, context of the passage, into a future antichrist. This was never taught until 15 year old Margarette McDonald had her vision and prophetic utterance (big time charismatic/Irvingite) in 1829/1830.
At best, we have a 3 1/2 years to be fulfilled but I see it as fulfilled in 70AD because the Great Revolt lasted exactly 42 months and answers the WHY of General/Prince Titus in verse 26.
I do believe in a Dual Prophecy interpretation. What I mean by that most of 2/3rds of Matthew 24 was historically fulfilled AND much of that chapter was spoken to THAT generation but something similar will happen AGAIN in a fuller way, on a worldwide scale. For example, the word world (oikenume) in Matthew 24 means Roman Empire and the apostles did preach the gospel to the whole world (oikenume) by 70 AD so they fulfilled that but if you take a FULL preterist approach that is just as dangerous as taking a full futurist approach to scripture.
The word parousia in 1st Thess. 4:13-18 is the 2nd coming literally to earth. Paul puts the catching away (harpazo) AFTER the dead in Christ rise which is obviously THE resurrection and a twinkling of an eye BEFORE the physical return of Christ to establish His millennial reign. You should subscribe to my new youtube channel.
Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST first the TARES (WEEDS) tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (first the tares WEEDS get gathered, then wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?
Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
That seems right on to me. How did we all miss that? The tares are gathered before the wheat. Seems to me we have gone to God's Word with a lot of presuppositions from things we were taught early on in our walks. As far as I can tell, the tares are still here so HOW CAN THEY BE LEFT BEHIND if they are taken first? Help me see this.
he was of what race or color do u thnik
There has always only been ONE people of God. This is exactly why I left pre-trib rapture teaching. It teaches more than one gospel, more than ONE way to be saved, and more than ONE people.
Yet the Bible teaches, there is ONE people of God in both the Old and New Testament.
One faith.
One Lord.
One baptism.
What's interesting is there is more Jewish blood in Palestine proven with TWO different DNA testings by two different scientists of Jewish descent yet the pre-tribbers are unaware of so many things and so many have hatred in their hearts for these people which is murder. I can't be a part of that body of Christ as it is cancerous.
Appears that maybe Moses took some lip for marrying someone the sister rejected because of the color.
As Christians we have to be color blind. You can't pick and choose whom the Lord might say, "go talk to that one". We get crowns at Bema Seat. Jesus said EVERYONE is welcome. We just say, Yes Sir!
The first will be last, and the last, first.
[Brass is made of copper which is REDDISH GOLDEN, not black] as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Bible book Song of Solomon 5:10 - My beloved is WHITE white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.
Bible book Lamentations 4:7 - Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were WHITER whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:
But I see those words UNTO the COMING in there. And if we are alive and REMAIN (SURVIVE IN THE GREEK) UNTO (MEANING RESERVED) the COMING how are we already gone? The word coming is parousia which is the literal physical coming of Christ to earth to set up his kingdom. Why are we ignoring that word? Did God make a mistake?
Can you do me a favor and take my poll on my new youtube channel PRE-TRIB RAPTURE: TRUE OR FALSE? I couldnt' find any poll like this ever done. I'm trying to figure out why we in America came to certain beliefs. It will take two minutes to fill out in the comments section.
thanks,
Bob
d. The use of the word "Mystery". Whenever used in the Bible, it denoted something now revealed that wasn't known before, whether fully or partially. E.g. Rom 11:25 (Gentiles would be saved, hence Israel's blindness); Eph 1:9 (Jew & Gentiles would be one in Christ); Eph 3:3 (Gentiles would be fellow-heirs, partaking in the same promise); Eph 5:32 (Christ & His Church alluded to a husband/wife relationship); Col 1:26,27 (Christ indwelling Gentiles); 2 Thes 2:7 (a type of wickedness not seen or imagined before which will be evident in the Anti-Christ); and to the Rapture: 1 Cor 15:51 which is Paul's message to the Corinthians as was to the Thessalonians: that this Mystery, that was not revealed before (whether by Prophecy or by Jesus), is now revealed to the Church. And this was not just a prelude to the Second Coming of Christ, but an indication that as before, in olden times, God would spare His people (now the Church & not the Jew), from His Great Anger that would come to all unbelievers.
e. 1 Thes 5:9. Paul speaking about the sudden appearing of the Day of the Lord urges the believers not to be slothful but to await that Day. Why? Because "God has not appointed us to wrath (His Wrath upon the World), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". And this 'salvation' I understand is the saving of His Church from the Wrath of God.
P.S. I'll have a look at your YT channel. Thank you.
Was not Jesus revealed tot he Jews FIRST thus fulfilling over 300 prophecies? To fulfill 8 prophecies is a mathematical improbability according tot he mathematicians would be like picking the right atom out of the entire universe and when you bump that up to 9 it most likely doubles. We are talking 300 to 330 fulfilled prophecies.
Jews have been being saved and been preached to for 2,000 years. Always ONE people.
In Romans Paul says only a remnant will be saved when he quotes Isaiah and Revelation 11 confirms that only a remnant give glory to God at the time of the 7th trumpet. It doesn't say they got saved but only that they give glory to God. That is who I think will repopulate the planet for the 1,000 year reign of Christ. The modern Sanhedrin are pushing the noah hide laws right now upon all the Gentiles and they are the only people that will be exempt from having to abide by them. They are talmudic laws and not Biblical at all.
If the Bible says to preach to Jerusalem and Judea first, how do you interpret Matthew 21:43?
G1577
ekklesia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
Total KJV occurrences: 115
did not the gospel already go to Israel already and first at that?
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
The gospel was originally preached to Adam and Eve. This is called the Protoevangelium in theology.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
God elected or CALLED Abraham and his descendents to be the preachers but they failed during the time of Christ and God gave the kingdom to another nation- a heathen pagan Gentile nation. No one will answer me on what they think this verse means below after Jesus gives the 7 woes against the Pharisees and Jerusalem. These passages were NEVER taught by any of the famous pre-trib teachers I sat under
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
G1484 (greek for NATION)
ethnos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usuall
1. "The gospel was originally preached to Adam and Eve. This is called the Protoevangelium in theology." I don't know about this type of theology, but I'm clear that the Gospel was never preached to A & E. If you refer to Gen 3:15, this was prophecy about what would happen in the future (Christ, Satan, the Cross) & not the Gospel to save them. Prophecy, as you know, can also bring some dire news, but the Gospel only gave both the news & the way to be saved.
2. "No one will answer me on what they think this verse means below after Jesus gives the 7 woes against the Pharisees and Jerusalem. These passages were NEVER taught by any of the famous pre-trib teachers I sat under." I had made my comment on this passage in my page 2.
Mt 21:43. I've never associated this Scripture to the preaching of the Gospel first to Jerusalem & Judea. The Gospel was first to be brought to them as it should (God's care & concern for His people, the Jew, as well as preaching at home before radiating the Word to other nations). But that "the Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof", I understand that Israel was privileged to be God's chosen & to receive His Promises, but in their rejection ( Mt 31:33-41), their inheritance (the Kingdom of God) would no longer be their expectation, but to the nations that bring Him His fruits, unlike the husbandmen (in the parable) who did wickedly.
So the 'mystery' I refer to (unless it can be correctly shown in the OT), is something that was not revealed (whether in whole or in part), but which Paul has now shown to the Church. He may have received this revelation during his time in Arabia ( Gal 1:17), we're not sure. Nevertheless, this is something 'special' that is to happen to the Church that was unknown earlier, to which every believer can anticipate & longingly wait for.
Bob, I take your point that in the case of Abraham, conversion of Gentiles in Esther's day, Laban & other numerous examples, there is a clear assimilation of Gentiles into Jewish lineage. However, when I refer to Paul's use of the word 'Mystery', this is not what I see. I see that he speaks only of the fact that both Jew & Gentile would one day be brought as one, as Christ's Church. We can't presume that the OT Scriptures about Gentile assimilation has any reference to the Church, even looking forward. Is there any OT Scripture that reveals this fact that Jew (& Gentile incorporation into Jewish lineage) would one day belong to the Church - that they should wait for the 'New Covenant' that would allow for their descendants to be an equal part of Christ's Church? The closest one is Jer 31:31-34 (cf Heb 8:8-11), but this only speaks of them entering into a New Covenant with the LORD, but not of the 'mystery' of incorporation into the Church. The revelation of Jesus through over 300 prophecies is not the mystery I refer to here.
Hi Bob, I can understand how the word 'Rapture' can be used as a verb, but it is also quite rightly used as a noun, to describe an event that is yet to take place. Now, the problem: Is this event (Rapture) a separate 'snatching away of believers prior to the outpouring of Gods Wrath' or is it a part of Christ's Second Coming for His millennial reign, implying that believers will go through the Great Tribulation, but will be kept "from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." ( Rev 3:10)?
I understand the Gk. word "Parousia" to mean 'Presence or a Presence after an Absence, an Arrival'. So this certainly allows for 'a literal physical coming of Christ to set up His Kingdom', but I see that it can also speak of His Coming for His saints specifically. Actually, there are various aspects from the Word, which compel me to believe that there will be a removal of His people first before the Anger of the Lord is poured out. Most of these you will be aware of:
a. Gen 6-8. Noah & his family were saved at a time of God's Wrath upon the wicked.
b. Ex 7 ff. The children of Israel delivered from Pharaoh after God's judgement against Egypt.
c. Israel too suffered at times, only because of their disobedience to God, idolatry & many crimes.
ME: Sure your not pre-wrath? Tribulation of Satan which we are promised throughout the gospels and God's wrath on the wicked are two different things.
YOU: a. Genesis 6-8. Noah & his family were saved at a time of God's Wrath upon the wicked.
ME: They were not removed from the earth but protected.
YOU: b. Exodus 7 ff. The children of Israel delivered from Pharaoh after God's judgement against Egypt.
ME: Your sounding pre-wrath rapture to me.
YOU: c. Israel too suffered at times, only because of their disobedience to God, idolatry & many crimes.
ME: They and individuals also suffered for no good reason at all. Joseph suffered slavery and betrayed by brothers but God used it for His glory just one of many examples.Who am I to be better than Polycarp, John's disciple, who was tortured before being burned alive. Or James, or John the Baptist or all of the prophets who served God more than any of us ever will or the apostles who were martyred or John who was boiled but survived. I only wish pre-trib was true. Paul puts the harpazo AFTER the dead in Christ rise whcih is the resurrection and RIGHT WITH the parousia (physical return of the Lord).That word UNTO is very important in that passage. When we leave every word in there and don't add any words the passage is very clear. The word REMAIN means SURVIVE also.Survive what if we are gone? I had a woman tell me that if the pre-trib rapture isn't true than Jesus is a liar and no better than the devil but there are many clear verses that point to it not being true. Doctrine is based on clear verses, not unclear verses.Did you know Dr. Thomas Ice is trying to make the word apostasia a rapture word now? It is always used as ONE DEPARTING FROM THE FAITH. He knows there isn't one clear verse proving what he teaches
1. Yes, I'm aware of our woes: the normal woes (some from the Enemy), the discipline of God to His children, & the Great Wrath of God upon the world. My examples of the saving of Noah & the children of Israel, were to show that God removes His children when His Anger is poured upon the world. You can call it 'protected' from His Wrath & as I see it both 'protected' & 'removal' are signified here.
2. True, many believers (& Israel) suffered terribly over the centuries & are still experiencing suffering, torture & martyrdom today, but this is not God's Wrath. This can come to any of us, especially to those "who live godly in Christ Jesus".
3. Again True, Harpazo & Parousia are together in the same verse, but the problem is that one looks at Harpazo as part of Christ's Second Coming & the other, as part of Christ's Coming, pre-Trib, for His Saints. Then the question: when do the dead in Christ rise? How many resurrections are there? Again, if there are two (post Christ), then does the Rapture make it a third resurrection? No, the Rapture is still part of the Mystery of the Coming of Christ: that this coming would be for His Church to remove them from the Great Wrath of God. No child of God is seen as having to experience God's Great Wrath - indeed, why should we suffer if we are His Children? But if we do wrong then we can expect His chastening ( Heb 12:5-11), but not to be a part of His Anger upon the world of unbelievers. This wouldn't make sense.
4. I agree, the word 'Remain' could be used as 'Survive' the Tribulation. However, the same could be said, if God's Wrath is never poured upon His own, then the remaining ones are those living & waiting during the 'Great Translation'.
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