Why is when the rapture / resurrection a hotly contested thing? It was not even debated until 200 years ago.
Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (first the tares WEEDS get gathered, the wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?
Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The tares are Israel who DID NOT believe that Jesus was The Christ (Messiah) of God.
The wheat are Israel who DID believe that Jesus was The Christ (Messiah) of God.
At the harvest of the world, at the end of the Tribulation, angels are the reapers, tares are gathered and burned, wheat are left.
The Rapture is a Mystery revealed to Paul for the Body Of Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, who believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, by grace through faith.
Ann Hering - You should try tell the Christians in many other countries today that the Christians will be gone before tribulation (not wrath) they are burning them alive, killing them today in very terrible ways. I would name several countries but may not be allowed to post.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (the word after has one meaning = not before)
The Tribulation is not happening now. The Tribulation is the Time of Jacob's (Israel's) Trouble. That is a prophetic event. We are not in prophecy.
The Apostle Paul was buffeted by Satan because he preached The Gospel Of The Grace of God, believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again, all by grace through faith in that alone!
Satan hates the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ. Religion hates the preaching of the finished work of the cross for salvation. That is why Paul was beaten, stoned, and sorely mistreated because of The Gospel ( 1 Cor 15:1-4)
Today no prophecy! The Body Of Christ will be taken out of here before God resumes His prophetic program with ISRAEL during The Tribulation!
Ann Hering, The Bible is clear. See Matthew 24:29. There are differences of opinion on when Christ will return and if there will be an appearing before the coming. But the Scriptures are specific. See 2 Timothy 2. Perhaps you are right and we will be taken away before what Christ calls the Great Tribulation. That would be very nice, but it is unrealistic. Not only that, it is not Biblical.
If you take everything that is said about the Rapture and the 2nd Coming and separate them, which the Bible does not do, you are left with the same thing. Everything that is said about the Rapture falls in line with what is said about the Coming. If we say Paul distinguishes between these two events, we would contradict what he says.
1. The Bible never says the Rapture is before the Tribulation.
2. The Bible says that Christ said the Rapture is Immediately After the Tribulation.
3. The same events are attached to both (Trumpets, Clouds, Gathering, In the Air, Angels, Thief in the Night).
Where does the Bible contradict the words of Christ in Matthew 24:29?
Where does the Bible specifically say the Rapture is before the Tribulation?
But what is the real significance of what Christ and Paul said? Why is it important for Christians to know the truth about when the Rapture will take place?
I think I know the arguments, but if you list them, we can all discuss them one by one.
Paul is the only ONE in The Word of God that says, "Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY."
The Tribulation is a prophesied event for ISRAEL.
The Rapture is a MYSTERY for The Body Of Christ!
Jesus Christ reveals to Paul a NEW program.
Paul has a NEW Gospel in this Age of GRACE 1 Cor 15:1-4, believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again, and we are SAVED all by grace through faith in that alone!
The Body of Christ has to be out of the way so that God can resume His prophetic program with Israel called The Tribulation.
Paul tells us The Body of Christ is saved from the wrath to come.
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
The Tribulation Gospel is NOT going to be good!
Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, FEAR God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his JUDGMENT is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
NO MORE GRACE in The Tribulation!
The Body of Christ SAVED today by The Gospel Of GRACE will be Raptured and then God deals with ISRAEL with The Tribulation with the everlasting Gospel.
The Rapture for The Body Of Christ and The Tribulation for ISRAEL; TWO Completely Different Programs for TWO Completely Different groups, with TWO Completely Different GOSPELS!
I stress understanding of God's Purpose for Creation, because without it, many things in Scripture don't make sense. Why, for example did God create the Jewish Nation? Did God just look around for some group that looked good to Him and selected them to show them love? What about the rest of humanity? Doesn't God love them too? Let me explain. God created the Jews from Abraham for:
1. The Law
2. Christ
The only two reasons for the existence of the Jews, was so Christ could enter into a broken world, deemed wicked by the Law. There is a thread that ties all of the Bible together from front cover to back cover. From before God created anything, God started threading the needle of history with Christ. Christ is that thread that holds all things together. If you take a needle and thread, tie a knot at the end of it and shove it from Genesis 1, page by page, chapter by chapter, book by book, through to Revelation 22, you will see that the thread is Jesus. He was before all things and created all things. God the savior of mankind existed before Adam and Eve fell. God threaded the needle in eternity, before He created time/space. And God started sewing the fabric of history with Jesus from Genesis to Revelation.
When we see that the people of Israel, the Chosen People, were created with a specific Purpose, that Christ would come into the world through them, the rest of the story falls in perspective. Creation is about Christ. The Bible is the story of Christ from before the beginning of time 2 Tim 1:9, Heb 10:5, Matt 1, Rev 22.
The time of the Rapture is really inconsequential. What our focus should be is in that Christ is Coming Back. The Bible is the history of Christ. The Rapture is about His triumphant return to earth.
The entire Word of God was written by Jews and was written to the Jews, with exception of The Apostle Paul, The Apostle of The GENTILES.
That is YOU!
The Revelation is a book of PROPHECY ... to The 7 Churches of Asia that existed during Paul's day.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this PROPHECY, and keep those things written therein: for the time is at hand.
You see, The Tribulation was right around the corner for those Jews living during Paul's day, and the books Hebrews through The Revelation are written to prepare the Jews for the SOON Tribulation.
BUT, what happened? How come it DID NOT happen right away?
Answer: Paul and The Body Of Christ
These 7 churches of Asia were JEWISH . . . 7 Candlesticks, Angels, Works, Synagogue, Doctrine of Balaam, Hidden Manna, White Stone, Jezebel, White Linen, Priests, Key of David, New Jerusalem, The Lamb, Lion from The Tribe Of Judah, and on and on.
None of The Revelation has anything to do with YOU!
Thank goodness!
Hebrews - The Last Days, Prophets, Throne, Anointed With Oil, Heirs Of Salvation, Signs and Wonders, To Call Them Brethren, Seed Of Abraham, Bondage, Make reconciliation for the sins of the people, Moses, House, Provocation, and on and on . . . ALL JEWISH.
James . . . To the Twelve Tribes Scattered ... JEWISH!
Peter . . . To the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia . . . ALL JEWISH!
123 John . . . Unto The ELECT Lady ISRAEL . . . JEWISH!
Jude . . . Feasts, Error Of Balaam, Egypt, Moses, Angels, Garment spotted, Last Time, Looking for the Mercy . . . JEWISH!
The Tribulation . . . The Time Of Jacobs TROUBLE!
WHEN did Jacob have TROUBLE?
The 1st 7 years Jacob worked for Leah... the 2nd 7 years Jacob worked for Rachel, whom he loved, that was TROUBLE! The Kingdom promised to Abraham and David will come and The Jews will inherit The Earth!
You bring up good points, Ann Hering. But the teaching is skewed and lacks understanding of history. You should reexamine it. Some argue everything is for the Jews, which means, Christians do not benefit from or need 90% of the NT. If Christ was directing His message to the Jews, what are we doing here? When Jesus said to Nicodemus, a Jew, you must be born again, by what you are being taught, it only applies to Jews. So, only Jews can be Christians? But Paul says that Jesus Himself told him it applies to Gentiles. Same for Sermon on the Mount. Is that only for Jews? So after we tear every page in the NT that doesn't apply to Christians, what are we left with?
Paul spends a lot of time talking to Jews. He even equates Baptism with Circumcision. And what about the Passover? Only Jews were present. Do we not celebrate communion as Christians?
The teaching that many books or sections of the NT are for Jews is a gross misconception of the message of the Cross. Christ came to die for all. In Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek.
But think about what Paul says. We have been grafted in. And if grafted into the Tree, we become a part of it. That means, in essence, Christians are also part of the Tree of Israel. We too are Jewish by adoption.
Of course, that is not exactly what Paul meant. We are a continuation of the Promise. And Israel has been blinded so Christ could be crucified. But there still remains a Promise to Israel.
Nevertheless, you can't skirt the fact the entire Bible was written as God's message to all of us. But It was God's choice to employ the Jews to do it. Think of it this way. God created a company called the Jewish People, through whom to supply the rest of the world with a product called the Law, God's Word. But because the Law was not as effective a product as it should be, it was replaced by a better product called Christ, who is irreplaceable. But to get this better product called Christ, the company had to go through a process.
The Jews were going to be the means by which The Gentiles would come to the knowledge of God, but guess what, they rejected the Christ of God.
SO, God uses a Jew named Saul of Tarsus to reveal to us how to be saved today!
Romans through Philemon is our doctrine, and the rest of The Word Of God is for our learning.
Christendom can't handle the fact that Christ came in the flesh for Israel, but guess what, Jesus Christ had to die for Israel first and die for the Gentiles which is God's perfect solution for a sin cursed world.
I study The Word of God because God tells us to, and I am afraid many believers don't know the difference between Israel's Program and The Body Of Christ Program given to Paul to give to US!
I am sticking to the doctrine that Jesus Christ revealed to Paul ...
For by GRACE are ye SAVED through faith!
I am going to know the difference in The Word of God from what God wrote to ISRAEL and what God wrote to ME.
Church tradition has taught people wrong.
Communion, The Passover, the priesthood, and water baptism is ALL JEWISH.
Our meat and drink and baptism is all SPIRITUAL. NOT PHYSICAL.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Paul had a hard time convincing people about GRACE and it is NO different today.
One day people are going to be ashamed because they did NOT listen to Paul.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Jacobs trouble is that he stole his firstborn brother Esau's birthright. Esau sold it for a bowl of Mom's soup. Jacob trucked his Dad into thinking he was hairy, Esau. Jacob got the firstborns blessing. Esau chased him, to kill him.
God was angry at Esau for doing that.
Genesis 27 to 28. Read slow; there is a covenant mentioned.
God promised Abraham he would be the Father of MANY NATIONS.
Gen 17:5 - Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of MANY many nations have I made thee.
If the "Jews" are all of Abraham, where are all these MANY "jewish nations"...?
There is only one and it was created by the antichrist United Nations and one is not many.
Either God lied (impossible) or the Jews are not all of Israel.
Where are the MANY JEWISH NATIONS of Abraham?
Judah and Israel were not the same people. God divorced Israel and not Judah. One tribe is not many
Jeremiah 3:8 - And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of DIVORCE; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
The Lord DIVORCED ISRAEL
Israel and judah had wars and different kings as well as different capitols. Jerusalem capitol of Judah.
Samaria capitol of Israel.
2 Kings 8:16 ...Joram the son of Ahab KING of ISRAEL, Jehoshaphat being then KING of JUDAH, ...
1 Kings 21:1 ....had a vineyard, which was in Jezreel, hard by the PALACE of Ahab KING of SAMARIA.
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
this verse says a new covenant with both Israel AND Judah. So how can they be the same?
Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Romans 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Galatians 3:29. - And if ye be Christ's, then ARE ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Remember Abraham's children by Hagar, Sarah, and Keturah represents "many" nations.
Abraham is considered to be the progenitor of MANY NATIONS mentioned in the Bible, the Israelites, Ishmaelites ( Genesis 25:12-18) Edomites ( Genesis 36:1-43]) Amalekites ( Genesis 36:12-16) Kenizzites ( Genesis 36:9-16) Midianites and Assyrians ( Genesis 25:1-5) and through his nephew Lot he was also related to the Moabites and Ammonites.
Believers IN CHRIST, by believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again, all by grace through faith, WE get the PROMISE by FAITH just like Abraham!
Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Abraham is not our father by progeny, but is our father by his example of FAITH!
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.
Ann Jesus in bible book Revelation 2:9 - I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Jesus speaking to the Pharisee Jews - Bible book of John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48 Then answered the Jews
Then answered the Jews
Then answered the Jews
Then answered the Jews
pretty obvious who Jesus called of their father the DEVIL.
Satan is the god of this world and he has used religion since The Garden of Eden to convince mankind that they can DO something to appease a Righteous God (the fig leaves)!
Man is a sinner and needs SAVING!
The Jews were so caught up in "religion" that they missed The Son Of God coming to them to save THEM!
That is the same boat that the world is in TODAY!
Most people believe that religion, doing a bunch of good works, is going to save them, but boy, are they WRONG!
The preaching of The Cross is the POWER of God unto SALVATION!
I don't hear The Gospel being preached in churches/religion today.
That is WHY people are NOT being saved.
Satan is having his way today, but ONE DAY, God is going to have HIS WAY!
People actually do need to 'do something' to be saved. Believe Jesus is Lord and God's son, confess and repent of sins, and follow Jesus by obeying his commandments- those are all actions. This is what Jesus says himself: John 14:15.
Please be respectful. The Bible already answered your question. You cited a verse in James, but have you read the whole book, specifically James 2? If someone disagrees with that then they're disagreeing with God's word. And if they disagree with God's word, who are they following exactly? If someone disagrees that Christianity requires action then they are disagreeing with Jesus himself. It's clear who wins that argument. The Bible is what matters, not what people want to believe.
Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH in believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried, and rose again!
That's IT!
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
I AM sticking with WHAT Paul SAYS!
You SEE Salvation is just BELIEVING in what Jesus Christ DID for US!
Hi Ann, this is a predictable discussion. I know all the verses you shared and agree with them, because I believe in the Bible- all of it, not just cherry picked verses. Have you read the entire chapter context around these verses? Because it completes the thought and explains what exactly it means. I can pluck out things too that only share part of the picture, like 1 Timothy 2:15.
You said something before worth analyzing: "FAITH or WORKS??? It CAN'T BE BOTH!"
Why not? Who said it can't be both? It is both. The Bible already says it's both and even already predicted this exact believe and refused it. James 2:17 says faith without works is dead- do you believe that? If not, what is your explanation for not believing this part of the Bible?
Since you believe Paul, do you believe what he wrote in Romans 7? He talked about his deep struggle in trying to avoid sin and do good. Why would he struggle if doing good isn't necessary one bit? He called himself captive (prisoner) of sin. He was in deep torment to try to do good. If no good works was necessary why didn't he instead just party and live a life of sin and not worry about spreading the gospel, if he was already 'saved'? The Bible makes the answer clear.
James 2:19 - even demons believe in God and Jesus, including satan. So, if all that's needed to be saved and go to heaven is to believe does that mean satan will go to heaven? If not, why? Hitler attended church and might have been a Christian in his early years, so will we see him in heaven too, despite Romans 2:6?
Is it 'wrong' to do good works? If so, why does the Bible say in multiple places to do good? Matthew 7:16-23. Jesus says most people will go to hell and you'll know his followers by their fruit. If good isn't needed, then why would Jesus say this. Was he lying? It would be a very hard argument to make that living a fruitful life of good works is 'bad', because that's exactly what the Bible says to do and how you can recognize genuine Christians. Christians aren't saved by good works, though. That's a logical fallacy to assume that. Grace alone saves. If someone wants to follow Jesus, however, it requires action, doing things.
Reading the entire chapter context of the Bible clears up such misunderstandings. God bless you in your journey for the truth.
Ann Hering. With respect to the "Mystery", Paul is not the only one to use that expression. In Rev 1:20, 17:5, 7 the Angel reveals a mystery of the end times. In Daniel 2:22, 30, 47 God reveals a mystery. A mystery is something we don't yet know or understand. In Isa 44: God tells us He is going to reveal things that have not happened. See also Amos 3:7.
Sometimes well-intentioned people teach things that seem true, but are wrong. As stated before, the Bible never segregates the Tribulation as an event that will only affect Jews. The New Testament letters were written for the Church, not for the Jews. It is God's message to us who believe, 1 Cor 1. Paul and Peter were adamant about not returning to Judaism, 2 Peter 2:22.
Perhaps Hebrews 6:4, 6, 10:26 can shed some light on this. There remains no Sacrifice for anyone that thinks they can be saved by returning to Judaism. And if that is the case, why would God nullify Christ's ultimate sacrifice on the Cross, to punish the Jews for 7 years? Sacrifices, by Jews or anyone else are worthless. So why would God want to restore them as a means for Salvation in the Tribulation? The doctrine that the Tribulation is for the Jews, absent Christians, is a fabrication that doesn't meet the test of reality. God works within the framework of reality, not fiction.
If you can show where the Bible says the Tribulation is for the Jews, please do. But first, you must deal with Matthew 24:29, 2 Tim 2, which set the stage for every other mention of the 2nd Coming and the Rapture. We know from the mouth of Jesus that He is coming Immediately After the Great Tribulation. It remains to be shown that He is coming before that for a Rapture. But if there is a place in Scripture that says otherwise, please point to it. I can tell you now, you won't find it. Every mention of a Rapture scenario follows the description in Matt 24.
Furthermore, don't believe the lie that some of the books of the NT are for the Jews. They are not.
Ann Hering, 1st of all, the idea that Christians will not go through the Tribulation, is a relatively modern notion. It is also closely tied to a Dispensationalist program that is also a modern invention. That program is not found in the Bible. On its surface, it does give you a picture of a somewhat historical development of Biblical events, but with many flaws. Out of it comes this idea that we are in the Dispensation or period of Grace that will come to an end. The fact is, the Grace and Mercy of God was always in effect and will never come to an end, Gal 3:21.
Salvation is based on Christ and Christ's death never comes to an end. That Christ died and we can be saved by calling on Him will always be true. And the Holy Spirit is never taken away. There is no Gospel for the Jews as distinct from a Gospel for the Gentiles. 2 These 2 is clear that both Rapture and 2nd Coming are concurrent events for those that follow Christ. There is no distinction between Jew and non-Jew. Paul tells us there is no other Gospel, Gal 2:21.
Many churches teach there will be a period of Tribulation just for the Jews. Therefore, Christians must be taken out of the earth. To get there they read things into Scripture that just aren't there. Christ never even alluded to that. Neither did any of the Apostles. We are saved by Grace. If the Law and Sacrifices could save, Christ would not have been necessary. Christ died once and for all. There is no Dispensational 7th Week of Daniel outlined in the Bible. He is just telling us what is going to happen to all of us. Lk 19:10.
There is a misunderstanding of the Book of Revelation, the Tribulation Period, Judgement and Wrath. A study of Revelation will show the Day of the Lord and Wrath are specific to the last hour of the Tribulation. Many confuse it with the entire 7 year period. Revelation gives you a panorama of history, then starts shrinking it down to the last moment, which is when God pours out His Wrath. Rom 1:17.
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the UNCIRCUMCISION was committed unto me (Paul), as the gospel of the CIRCUMCISION was unto Peter.
God is "dispensing" GRACE today. Israel's salvation in the past was based on works!
BIG DIFFERENCE!
God hid THE MYSTERY in time past BUT NOW has made known to US through Paul.
Read these VERSES very carefully . . .
Ephesians 3:1-9
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you GENTILES,
If ye have heard of the DISPENSATION of the GRACE OF GOD which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me THE MYSTERY; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST)
Which in other ages was NOT MADE KNOWN unto the sons of God, as it is NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the GENTILES should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by THE GOSPEL:
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the GRACE OF GOD given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is THIS GRACE given, that I should preach among the GENTILES the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make ALL MEN SEE what IS the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ.
Rapture IS A MYSTERY and saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IS A MYSTERY!
The Word of God is CLEAR on this!
You and I ARE GENTILES, and we had better listen to Paul and get our doctrine from him!
Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David had to DO WORKS (whatever God told them to do) THEN they FOUND GRACE in the eyes of The LORD!
Ann Hering, I have to disagree with you. There is no distinction in the Bible that would warrant belief in 2 separate Gospels. However:
1. Do any of the writers of the New Testament support the allegations you have outlined? That is, do any of the writers of the NT say what you say you have been taught? Does Paul say that the Gospel he preaches is different than what Peter preaches?
2. Does the teaching you point to, provide hard evidence, not conjecture or speculation? For example, Peter tells us to listen to Paul's teaching, because they are Scripture, 2 Peter 3:16:
"Consider also that our Lord's patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever."
You cite a lot of verses that have nothing to do with the Bible message. But not only do you cite them, you change their meaning by adding words that don't belong.
Tell me, Ann, who were Sylvanus and Marcus, that Peter writes about in 1 Peter 5:12f? Finally, tell me what the difference is between the Gospel Peter preached and what Paul preached?
In Acts 16:4, we see Paul and Silas "And as they went through the cities, THEY DELIVERED THEM THE DECREES FOR TO KEEP, THAT WERE ORDAINED OF THE APOSTLES AND ELDERS WHICH WERE AT JERUSALEM. And so were the churches established in the faith."
Paul proclaimed the Gospel the Apostles outlined for everyone in Jerusalem. It was one Gospel message.
Ann, In Gal 2:7 Paul is not teaching there are 2 Gospels. That's a misunderstanding. He is simply saying Peter presented the one and only Gospel to one group and Paul handled the other group. Peter had the Middle East. Paul had Greece and Italy. Paul himself cautions that there is no other Gospel, Gal 1:8 - "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse!"
See Eph 4:4-6, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."
Again in 1 Cor 12:13 - "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
The use of the word dispensation is not the same as Dispensationalism. There has been a lot of debate over what Dispensationalists believe with respect to Israel, the Church and a Promise that remains to Israel. While the outline of historical "dispensations" is helpful to put Biblical History in perspective, assertions that some things in the NT are for Jews and others for Followers of Christ, are misguided. Hebrews, for example, was written for Christians with a Jewish background. It was not written for Jews or Synagogues. Neither was the Sermon on the Mount for Jews. Its universal principles apply to all. Contrary to the belief of some, Christ was not giving Jews instructions for the Millenium.
Gal 2:15-16 - "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Although In Rom 11, Paul makes it clear God still has a commitment to the Jews.
Ann, Galatians Chapter 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Seems to me there is only ONE GOSPEL and Paul writes that any that teaches contrary to this is cursed.
You have to know what was going on during Paul's day. There were Jews during Paul's ministry that wanted to put people under The Law ( Acts 15:1), and Paul warned them not to believe in ANY OTHER Gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4.
John The Baptist preached this gospel to ISRAEL ...
Matthew 3:1-2
In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Acts 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Jesus Christ preached The Gospel of the Kingdom to ISRAEL.
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
The Tribulation Gospel will be preached in the future to ISRAEL after The Body of Christ is taken out of here.
You see, WHAT Israel had to believe during Jesus' ministry is NOT The Gospel Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles in this Age of Grace.
Paul's Gospel is THE GOSPEL 1 Cor 15:1-4 we need to believe to be saved today!
The point that most forget is that the coming horror upon the Earth is not A Tribulation, but THE GREAT Tribulation. There is a difference: Jn 16:33 tells us that in the world you will have tribulation, which must include our daily troubles whether small or big, as well as those who are burned at the stake for Jesus' sake. But the Great Tribulation is only attributed to God's Wrath & Judgement upon sinful mankind.
And God's Wrath has been seen in the past, in The Flood, at Sodom & Gomorrah, in God's dealings with idolatrous Israel. We have not seen His Full Wrath yet post Calvary, even though some claim that our natural devastating phenomena, including viruses, or the Holocaust are examples. The next time God moves in this way, will be at the time of the End of this age, & will be with Fire & not Flood ( 2 Pet 3:5-7).
So, can we presume that God will then have to judge His people, the Church, Christ's Bride, a second time for their sinful nature & ways? Or, will He take out (rapture) His Church (having already been judged & redeemed), so that His Wrath will be seen & felt by all unbelievers to the fulfilment of prophecy?
Chris, I don't understand the reasoning to support a pre-tribulation exit and Christians being judged twice. Bob Hilt pointed out that Matthew 13 is a parable specific to the Rapture and Return of Christ. Do we have to stretch the imagination to come up with a justification for a rapid exit before the Tribulation? Can you give us more details?
I think that in light of what is specifically stated by Christ in Matthew 24:29, Paul, Peter and others, anything said that invalidates that is suspect. Where specifically is Matt 24:29 contradicted?
What is the Scriptural basis for saying, for example that, "yes, he is coming on a horse, but he is going to sneak in before that on foot?"
To restate, I've always been a firm post-Tribber, even to the disappointment of my former Fellowship ('80/'90s), but in my studies (as from my comments here), I'm convinced that God's dealing with the world (both now & in the end times) must be distinct for each family: whether the family of God or the family of Satan.
Thank you, Chris. That is good to know. My apologies. I just had a difficult time understanding what you wrote. But after reading the other posts that followed, it became clearer. You bring up Good points everyone should really look into, not just argue against. Thanks for the insight.
Secondly, the Rapture is taught by Paul as a Mystery ( 1 Cor 15:51-53) & alluded to by Peter ( 2 Pet 2:4-9). Even though the prophets in the OT spoke of future events that they had no knowledge of, it became something that was revealed later on, whether in the OT or NT. So too with Christ's Coming: this great day had been spoken of in the OT & again by Jesus, but it was only through Paul that showed that the Day of the Lord had another important matter attached to it, viz. the removal of the saints prior to the Great Tribulation. How did he learn this? Paul doesn't enlighten us.
Thirdly, the event described in 1 Thes 4:15-17 can be simply understood that the saints will be 'snatched away' & taken to be with the Lord (in Heaven), before the Wrath of God is poured out (on Earth). If this passage is applied to His physical Second Coming for his people, then is it then just a physical removal from various nations to be transported to Jerusalem? Maybe, the impossibility of quickly obtaining an air ticket or visa for Israel would unnecessarily delay matters, hence the 'free ride in the sky'. I have to understand this Rapture as a removal, to Heaven, of the Saints, as the spectacle of God's Judgement is laid open to all in His Presence.
Fourthly, the Trump of God. I realize that this is commonly taken to refer to the last Trumpet in Rev 10:7 & it appears as a correct assumption. However, whenever the trumpet is sounded, it can also be in relation to a heralding ( Ex 19:13; Lev 25:9; Josh 6:5, etc.), so the last Trump may even be the final 'clarion sound' from a series of earlier trumpet calls to the nations (e.g. Ps 47:5; Isa 27:13; Jer 51:27). This is just a thought & certainly not assumed, but shared as another application to 1 Thes 4:16).
Hi Carlos. Good to connect with you again brother. You're probably well acquainted with my position with Eschatology as from my other comments, but to deal with the questions you asked:
I know I won't find agreement with other 'pre-Tribbers' either, but then where can you find two believers in total agreement on everything? So, it is my sense that wherever we find Jesus speaking on His second Coming, it is specifically on His Coming post Tribulation. I realize that certain folk see the Rapture events mentioned in the Gospels as well (e.g. "one taken, the other left", "of that day & hour knoweth no man", etc), but I believe that Jesus wasn't speaking about the Rapture; indeed, the Rapture was not even declared by the prophets or Christ.
So what then makes me understand the Rapture as an event, pre-Tribulation? As stated, firstly, it is the removal of the saints prior to the outpouring of God's Wrath. Whenever we see God's Wrath being poured out (& examples given earlier), His (righteous) people have been taken to safety. And I was specific about HIS Wrath as compared to the trials/tribulations that come upon us daily or even in an overwhelming way. And as been also stated by Ann & others, our sin has been judged at the Cross & we don't fall under His Hand again. Is it correct that we should presume that God will still need to pour out His Anger on His blood-bought, when God's Anger (& our sin) was laid upon Christ on our behalf (Propitiate: 1 Jn 2:2, 4:10)? Whereas, His Wrath must be directed to those who have rejected Him & His Christ, without even the seed of saving faith to secure them from any judgement.
God judged sin on The Cross of Jesus Christ. God is not judging sin today, IF He was, we would all be zapped every time we sin!
John 16:33 was Jesus talking TO ISRAEL. Not us. Israel was going to be scattered very soon at the stoning of Stephen.
Israel is the Bride. We are the Body Of Christ. Big Difference. Satan is the "god" of this world and he is having his way with man and religion!
Paul is the only one in The Word Of God, Romans through Philemon, that tells you what your doctrine is today for this Age of Grace and salvation by grace by believeing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
One day, The Body of Christ will be taken, and then God is going to resume His prophetic program with Israel, and The Tribulation will culminate with the 2nd Coming Of Jesus Christ so ISRAEL will believe in THEIR Messiah, then The Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ on this earth; The Kingdom God promised to Abraham, then into eternity.
Read Paul's letters to find out that all our sins are forgiven, past present and future just by believing The Gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4 the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, all by grace through faith, no works, no law, just what Jesus Christ did for US!
Two different programs. Israel and The Body of Christ. Paul tells us in 2 Tim 2:15 . . . Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth; that WAY you know what is for ISRAEL and what is for The Body Of Christ.
Remember Jesus came for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel ( Matthew 10:6) Jesus was a minister of the circumcision ( Romans 15:8) Jesus came in the flesh for Israel ( Romans 9:5).
One day, God is going to gather ALL, BOTH Israel and The Body Of Christ, in ONE!
Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are in earth; even in him.
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Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (first the tares WEEDS get gathered, the wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?
Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The wheat are Israel who DID believe that Jesus was The Christ (Messiah) of God.
At the harvest of the world, at the end of the Tribulation, angels are the reapers, tares are gathered and burned, wheat are left.
The Rapture is a Mystery revealed to Paul for the Body Of Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, who believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, by grace through faith.
Two different programs!
Matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (the word after has one meaning = not before)
The Apostle Paul was buffeted by Satan because he preached The Gospel Of The Grace of God, believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again, all by grace through faith in that alone!
Satan hates the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ. Religion hates the preaching of the finished work of the cross for salvation. That is why Paul was beaten, stoned, and sorely mistreated because of The Gospel ( 1 Cor 15:1-4)
Today no prophecy! The Body Of Christ will be taken out of here before God resumes His prophetic program with ISRAEL during The Tribulation!
If you take everything that is said about the Rapture and the 2nd Coming and separate them, which the Bible does not do, you are left with the same thing. Everything that is said about the Rapture falls in line with what is said about the Coming. If we say Paul distinguishes between these two events, we would contradict what he says.
1. The Bible never says the Rapture is before the Tribulation.
2. The Bible says that Christ said the Rapture is Immediately After the Tribulation.
3. The same events are attached to both (Trumpets, Clouds, Gathering, In the Air, Angels, Thief in the Night).
Where does the Bible contradict the words of Christ in Matthew 24:29?
Where does the Bible specifically say the Rapture is before the Tribulation?
But what is the real significance of what Christ and Paul said? Why is it important for Christians to know the truth about when the Rapture will take place?
I think I know the arguments, but if you list them, we can all discuss them one by one.
The Tribulation is a prophesied event for ISRAEL.
The Rapture is a MYSTERY for The Body Of Christ!
Jesus Christ reveals to Paul a NEW program.
Paul has a NEW Gospel in this Age of GRACE 1 Cor 15:1-4, believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again, and we are SAVED all by grace through faith in that alone!
The Body of Christ has to be out of the way so that God can resume His prophetic program with Israel called The Tribulation.
Paul tells us The Body of Christ is saved from the wrath to come.
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
The Tribulation Gospel is NOT going to be good!
Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, FEAR God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his JUDGMENT is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
NO MORE GRACE in The Tribulation!
The Body of Christ SAVED today by The Gospel Of GRACE will be Raptured and then God deals with ISRAEL with The Tribulation with the everlasting Gospel.
The Rapture for The Body Of Christ and The Tribulation for ISRAEL; TWO Completely Different Programs for TWO Completely Different groups, with TWO Completely Different GOSPELS!
1. The Law
2. Christ
The only two reasons for the existence of the Jews, was so Christ could enter into a broken world, deemed wicked by the Law. There is a thread that ties all of the Bible together from front cover to back cover. From before God created anything, God started threading the needle of history with Christ. Christ is that thread that holds all things together. If you take a needle and thread, tie a knot at the end of it and shove it from Genesis 1, page by page, chapter by chapter, book by book, through to Revelation 22, you will see that the thread is Jesus. He was before all things and created all things. God the savior of mankind existed before Adam and Eve fell. God threaded the needle in eternity, before He created time/space. And God started sewing the fabric of history with Jesus from Genesis to Revelation.
When we see that the people of Israel, the Chosen People, were created with a specific Purpose, that Christ would come into the world through them, the rest of the story falls in perspective. Creation is about Christ. The Bible is the story of Christ from before the beginning of time 2 Tim 1:9, Heb 10:5, Matt 1, Rev 22.
The time of the Rapture is really inconsequential. What our focus should be is in that Christ is Coming Back. The Bible is the history of Christ. The Rapture is about His triumphant return to earth.
The entire Word of God was written by Jews and was written to the Jews, with exception of The Apostle Paul, The Apostle of The GENTILES.
That is YOU!
The Revelation is a book of PROPHECY ... to The 7 Churches of Asia that existed during Paul's day.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this PROPHECY, and keep those things written therein: for the time is at hand.
You see, The Tribulation was right around the corner for those Jews living during Paul's day, and the books Hebrews through The Revelation are written to prepare the Jews for the SOON Tribulation.
BUT, what happened? How come it DID NOT happen right away?
Answer: Paul and The Body Of Christ
These 7 churches of Asia were JEWISH . . . 7 Candlesticks, Angels, Works, Synagogue, Doctrine of Balaam, Hidden Manna, White Stone, Jezebel, White Linen, Priests, Key of David, New Jerusalem, The Lamb, Lion from The Tribe Of Judah, and on and on.
None of The Revelation has anything to do with YOU!
Thank goodness!
Hebrews - The Last Days, Prophets, Throne, Anointed With Oil, Heirs Of Salvation, Signs and Wonders, To Call Them Brethren, Seed Of Abraham, Bondage, Make reconciliation for the sins of the people, Moses, House, Provocation, and on and on . . . ALL JEWISH.
James . . . To the Twelve Tribes Scattered ... JEWISH!
Peter . . . To the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia . . . ALL JEWISH!
123 John . . . Unto The ELECT Lady ISRAEL . . . JEWISH!
Jude . . . Feasts, Error Of Balaam, Egypt, Moses, Angels, Garment spotted, Last Time, Looking for the Mercy . . . JEWISH!
The Tribulation . . . The Time Of Jacobs TROUBLE!
WHEN did Jacob have TROUBLE?
The 1st 7 years Jacob worked for Leah... the 2nd 7 years Jacob worked for Rachel, whom he loved, that was TROUBLE! The Kingdom promised to Abraham and David will come and The Jews will inherit The Earth!
God is going to KEEP HIS PROMISE!
Paul spends a lot of time talking to Jews. He even equates Baptism with Circumcision. And what about the Passover? Only Jews were present. Do we not celebrate communion as Christians?
The teaching that many books or sections of the NT are for Jews is a gross misconception of the message of the Cross. Christ came to die for all. In Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek.
But think about what Paul says. We have been grafted in. And if grafted into the Tree, we become a part of it. That means, in essence, Christians are also part of the Tree of Israel. We too are Jewish by adoption.
Of course, that is not exactly what Paul meant. We are a continuation of the Promise. And Israel has been blinded so Christ could be crucified. But there still remains a Promise to Israel.
Nevertheless, you can't skirt the fact the entire Bible was written as God's message to all of us. But It was God's choice to employ the Jews to do it. Think of it this way. God created a company called the Jewish People, through whom to supply the rest of the world with a product called the Law, God's Word. But because the Law was not as effective a product as it should be, it was replaced by a better product called Christ, who is irreplaceable. But to get this better product called Christ, the company had to go through a process.
The Jews were going to be the means by which The Gentiles would come to the knowledge of God, but guess what, they rejected the Christ of God.
SO, God uses a Jew named Saul of Tarsus to reveal to us how to be saved today!
Romans through Philemon is our doctrine, and the rest of The Word Of God is for our learning.
Christendom can't handle the fact that Christ came in the flesh for Israel, but guess what, Jesus Christ had to die for Israel first and die for the Gentiles which is God's perfect solution for a sin cursed world.
I study The Word of God because God tells us to, and I am afraid many believers don't know the difference between Israel's Program and The Body Of Christ Program given to Paul to give to US!
I am sticking to the doctrine that Jesus Christ revealed to Paul ...
For by GRACE are ye SAVED through faith!
I am going to know the difference in The Word of God from what God wrote to ISRAEL and what God wrote to ME.
Church tradition has taught people wrong.
Communion, The Passover, the priesthood, and water baptism is ALL JEWISH.
Our meat and drink and baptism is all SPIRITUAL. NOT PHYSICAL.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Paul had a hard time convincing people about GRACE and it is NO different today.
One day people are going to be ashamed because they did NOT listen to Paul.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
God was angry at Esau for doing that.
Genesis 27 to 28. Read slow; there is a covenant mentioned.
Rachel named him Ben-Oni ("son of my trouble"), but Jacob renamed him Benjamin ("son of my right hand").
Jacob and Rachel's son Benjamin is a picture in type of Jesus Christ.
Remember Rachel had been barren but finally conceives a son, Joseph, another picture in type of Jesus Christ because he is rejected by his brothers.
Rachel conceives the 2nd Time With Benjamin, and has "trouble" because she dies in childbirth.
Jacob renames Ben-Oni, Son Of Trouble, TO Ben-Jamin, Son Of My Strength, which depicts Jesus' 2nd Coming.
Gen 17:5 - Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of MANY many nations have I made thee.
If the "Jews" are all of Abraham, where are all these MANY "jewish nations"...?
There is only one and it was created by the antichrist United Nations and one is not many.
Either God lied (impossible) or the Jews are not all of Israel.
Where are the MANY JEWISH NATIONS of Abraham?
Judah and Israel were not the same people. God divorced Israel and not Judah. One tribe is not many
Jeremiah 3:8 - And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of DIVORCE; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
The Lord DIVORCED ISRAEL
Israel and judah had wars and different kings as well as different capitols. Jerusalem capitol of Judah.
Samaria capitol of Israel.
2 Kings 8:16 ...Joram the son of Ahab KING of ISRAEL, Jehoshaphat being then KING of JUDAH, ...
1 Kings 21:1 ....had a vineyard, which was in Jezreel, hard by the PALACE of Ahab KING of SAMARIA.
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
this verse says a new covenant with both Israel AND Judah. So how can they be the same?
Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Romans 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Galatians 3:29. - And if ye be Christ's, then ARE ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Abraham is considered to be the progenitor of MANY NATIONS mentioned in the Bible, the Israelites, Ishmaelites ( Genesis 25:12-18) Edomites ( Genesis 36:1-43]) Amalekites ( Genesis 36:12-16) Kenizzites ( Genesis 36:9-16) Midianites and Assyrians ( Genesis 25:1-5) and through his nephew Lot he was also related to the Moabites and Ammonites.
Believers IN CHRIST, by believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again, all by grace through faith, WE get the PROMISE by FAITH just like Abraham!
Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Abraham is not our father by progeny, but is our father by his example of FAITH!
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.
Jesus speaking to the Pharisee Jews - Bible book of John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48 Then answered the Jews
Then answered the Jews
Then answered the Jews
Then answered the Jews
pretty obvious who Jesus called of their father the DEVIL.
Satan is the god of this world and he has used religion since The Garden of Eden to convince mankind that they can DO something to appease a Righteous God (the fig leaves)!
Man is a sinner and needs SAVING!
The Jews were so caught up in "religion" that they missed The Son Of God coming to them to save THEM!
That is the same boat that the world is in TODAY!
Most people believe that religion, doing a bunch of good works, is going to save them, but boy, are they WRONG!
The preaching of The Cross is the POWER of God unto SALVATION!
I don't hear The Gospel being preached in churches/religion today.
That is WHY people are NOT being saved.
Satan is having his way today, but ONE DAY, God is going to have HIS WAY!
Which ONE is IT?
FAITH or WORKS???
It CAN'T BE BOTH!
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
NOT of WORKS, lest any man should boast.
James 2:24
Ye see them how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by FAITH ONLY.
You HAVE A DILEMMA!
ANSWER:
WHO is James written TO?
James 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, TO THE TWELVE TRIBES which are scattered abroad, greeting.
James was writing to ISRAEL!
WHO is Paul writing TO?
Ephesians 3:6
That the GENTILES should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Pretty CLEAR, You Are A GENTILE!
Paul is The Apostle Of The GENTILES!
You had better listen to Paul, Romans to Philemon, to FIND out HOW to be SAVED!
The Word of God is CLEAR!
Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH in believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried, and rose again!
That's IT!
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
I AM sticking with WHAT Paul SAYS!
You SEE Salvation is just BELIEVING in what Jesus Christ DID for US!
NO WORKS required!
You said something before worth analyzing: "FAITH or WORKS??? It CAN'T BE BOTH!"
Why not? Who said it can't be both? It is both. The Bible already says it's both and even already predicted this exact believe and refused it. James 2:17 says faith without works is dead- do you believe that? If not, what is your explanation for not believing this part of the Bible?
Since you believe Paul, do you believe what he wrote in Romans 7? He talked about his deep struggle in trying to avoid sin and do good. Why would he struggle if doing good isn't necessary one bit? He called himself captive (prisoner) of sin. He was in deep torment to try to do good. If no good works was necessary why didn't he instead just party and live a life of sin and not worry about spreading the gospel, if he was already 'saved'? The Bible makes the answer clear.
James 2:19 - even demons believe in God and Jesus, including satan. So, if all that's needed to be saved and go to heaven is to believe does that mean satan will go to heaven? If not, why? Hitler attended church and might have been a Christian in his early years, so will we see him in heaven too, despite Romans 2:6?
Is it 'wrong' to do good works? If so, why does the Bible say in multiple places to do good? Matthew 7:16-23. Jesus says most people will go to hell and you'll know his followers by their fruit. If good isn't needed, then why would Jesus say this. Was he lying? It would be a very hard argument to make that living a fruitful life of good works is 'bad', because that's exactly what the Bible says to do and how you can recognize genuine Christians. Christians aren't saved by good works, though. That's a logical fallacy to assume that. Grace alone saves. If someone wants to follow Jesus, however, it requires action, doing things.
Reading the entire chapter context of the Bible clears up such misunderstandings. God bless you in your journey for the truth.
Sometimes well-intentioned people teach things that seem true, but are wrong. As stated before, the Bible never segregates the Tribulation as an event that will only affect Jews. The New Testament letters were written for the Church, not for the Jews. It is God's message to us who believe, 1 Cor 1. Paul and Peter were adamant about not returning to Judaism, 2 Peter 2:22.
Perhaps Hebrews 6:4, 6, 10:26 can shed some light on this. There remains no Sacrifice for anyone that thinks they can be saved by returning to Judaism. And if that is the case, why would God nullify Christ's ultimate sacrifice on the Cross, to punish the Jews for 7 years? Sacrifices, by Jews or anyone else are worthless. So why would God want to restore them as a means for Salvation in the Tribulation? The doctrine that the Tribulation is for the Jews, absent Christians, is a fabrication that doesn't meet the test of reality. God works within the framework of reality, not fiction.
If you can show where the Bible says the Tribulation is for the Jews, please do. But first, you must deal with Matthew 24:29, 2 Tim 2, which set the stage for every other mention of the 2nd Coming and the Rapture. We know from the mouth of Jesus that He is coming Immediately After the Great Tribulation. It remains to be shown that He is coming before that for a Rapture. But if there is a place in Scripture that says otherwise, please point to it. I can tell you now, you won't find it. Every mention of a Rapture scenario follows the description in Matt 24.
Furthermore, don't believe the lie that some of the books of the NT are for the Jews. They are not.
Salvation is based on Christ and Christ's death never comes to an end. That Christ died and we can be saved by calling on Him will always be true. And the Holy Spirit is never taken away. There is no Gospel for the Jews as distinct from a Gospel for the Gentiles. 2 These 2 is clear that both Rapture and 2nd Coming are concurrent events for those that follow Christ. There is no distinction between Jew and non-Jew. Paul tells us there is no other Gospel, Gal 2:21.
Many churches teach there will be a period of Tribulation just for the Jews. Therefore, Christians must be taken out of the earth. To get there they read things into Scripture that just aren't there. Christ never even alluded to that. Neither did any of the Apostles. We are saved by Grace. If the Law and Sacrifices could save, Christ would not have been necessary. Christ died once and for all. There is no Dispensational 7th Week of Daniel outlined in the Bible. He is just telling us what is going to happen to all of us. Lk 19:10.
There is a misunderstanding of the Book of Revelation, the Tribulation Period, Judgement and Wrath. A study of Revelation will show the Day of the Lord and Wrath are specific to the last hour of the Tribulation. Many confuse it with the entire 7 year period. Revelation gives you a panorama of history, then starts shrinking it down to the last moment, which is when God pours out His Wrath. Rom 1:17.
Paul tells us that there were 2 GOSPELS!
Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the UNCIRCUMCISION was committed unto me (Paul), as the gospel of the CIRCUMCISION was unto Peter.
God is "dispensing" GRACE today. Israel's salvation in the past was based on works!
BIG DIFFERENCE!
God hid THE MYSTERY in time past BUT NOW has made known to US through Paul.
Read these VERSES very carefully . . .
Ephesians 3:1-9
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you GENTILES,
If ye have heard of the DISPENSATION of the GRACE OF GOD which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me THE MYSTERY; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST)
Which in other ages was NOT MADE KNOWN unto the sons of God, as it is NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the GENTILES should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by THE GOSPEL:
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the GRACE OF GOD given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is THIS GRACE given, that I should preach among the GENTILES the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make ALL MEN SEE what IS the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ.
Rapture IS A MYSTERY and saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IS A MYSTERY!
The Word of God is CLEAR on this!
You and I ARE GENTILES, and we had better listen to Paul and get our doctrine from him!
Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David had to DO WORKS (whatever God told them to do) THEN they FOUND GRACE in the eyes of The LORD!
That is NOT how we get SAVED!
1. Do any of the writers of the New Testament support the allegations you have outlined? That is, do any of the writers of the NT say what you say you have been taught? Does Paul say that the Gospel he preaches is different than what Peter preaches?
2. Does the teaching you point to, provide hard evidence, not conjecture or speculation? For example, Peter tells us to listen to Paul's teaching, because they are Scripture, 2 Peter 3:16:
"Consider also that our Lord's patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever."
You cite a lot of verses that have nothing to do with the Bible message. But not only do you cite them, you change their meaning by adding words that don't belong.
Tell me, Ann, who were Sylvanus and Marcus, that Peter writes about in 1 Peter 5:12f? Finally, tell me what the difference is between the Gospel Peter preached and what Paul preached?
In Acts 16:4, we see Paul and Silas "And as they went through the cities, THEY DELIVERED THEM THE DECREES FOR TO KEEP, THAT WERE ORDAINED OF THE APOSTLES AND ELDERS WHICH WERE AT JERUSALEM. And so were the churches established in the faith."
Paul proclaimed the Gospel the Apostles outlined for everyone in Jerusalem. It was one Gospel message.
See Eph 4:4-6, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."
Again in 1 Cor 12:13 - "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
The use of the word dispensation is not the same as Dispensationalism. There has been a lot of debate over what Dispensationalists believe with respect to Israel, the Church and a Promise that remains to Israel. While the outline of historical "dispensations" is helpful to put Biblical History in perspective, assertions that some things in the NT are for Jews and others for Followers of Christ, are misguided. Hebrews, for example, was written for Christians with a Jewish background. It was not written for Jews or Synagogues. Neither was the Sermon on the Mount for Jews. Its universal principles apply to all. Contrary to the belief of some, Christ was not giving Jews instructions for the Millenium.
Gal 2:15-16 - "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Although In Rom 11, Paul makes it clear God still has a commitment to the Jews.
Peter and Paul did NOT preach the same thing!
NO WAY!
Peter's preaching . . .
Acts 10:42-43
And he commanded us to preach unto the people (Jews), and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Paul's preaching . . .
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Paul's salvation message is nothing like Peter's!
That is a FACT!
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Seems to me there is only ONE GOSPEL and Paul writes that any that teaches contrary to this is cursed.
You have to know what was going on during Paul's day. There were Jews during Paul's ministry that wanted to put people under The Law ( Acts 15:1), and Paul warned them not to believe in ANY OTHER Gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4.
John The Baptist preached this gospel to ISRAEL ...
Matthew 3:1-2
In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Acts 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Jesus Christ preached The Gospel of the Kingdom to ISRAEL.
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
The Tribulation Gospel will be preached in the future to ISRAEL after The Body of Christ is taken out of here.
You see, WHAT Israel had to believe during Jesus' ministry is NOT The Gospel Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles in this Age of Grace.
Paul's Gospel is THE GOSPEL 1 Cor 15:1-4 we need to believe to be saved today!
And God's Wrath has been seen in the past, in The Flood, at Sodom & Gomorrah, in God's dealings with idolatrous Israel. We have not seen His Full Wrath yet post Calvary, even though some claim that our natural devastating phenomena, including viruses, or the Holocaust are examples. The next time God moves in this way, will be at the time of the End of this age, & will be with Fire & not Flood ( 2 Pet 3:5-7).
So, can we presume that God will then have to judge His people, the Church, Christ's Bride, a second time for their sinful nature & ways? Or, will He take out (rapture) His Church (having already been judged & redeemed), so that His Wrath will be seen & felt by all unbelievers to the fulfilment of prophecy?
I think that in light of what is specifically stated by Christ in Matthew 24:29, Paul, Peter and others, anything said that invalidates that is suspect. Where specifically is Matt 24:29 contradicted?
What is the Scriptural basis for saying, for example that, "yes, he is coming on a horse, but he is going to sneak in before that on foot?"
To restate, I've always been a firm post-Tribber, even to the disappointment of my former Fellowship ('80/'90s), but in my studies (as from my comments here), I'm convinced that God's dealing with the world (both now & in the end times) must be distinct for each family: whether the family of God or the family of Satan.
Secondly, the Rapture is taught by Paul as a Mystery ( 1 Cor 15:51-53) & alluded to by Peter ( 2 Pet 2:4-9). Even though the prophets in the OT spoke of future events that they had no knowledge of, it became something that was revealed later on, whether in the OT or NT. So too with Christ's Coming: this great day had been spoken of in the OT & again by Jesus, but it was only through Paul that showed that the Day of the Lord had another important matter attached to it, viz. the removal of the saints prior to the Great Tribulation. How did he learn this? Paul doesn't enlighten us.
Thirdly, the event described in 1 Thes 4:15-17 can be simply understood that the saints will be 'snatched away' & taken to be with the Lord (in Heaven), before the Wrath of God is poured out (on Earth). If this passage is applied to His physical Second Coming for his people, then is it then just a physical removal from various nations to be transported to Jerusalem? Maybe, the impossibility of quickly obtaining an air ticket or visa for Israel would unnecessarily delay matters, hence the 'free ride in the sky'. I have to understand this Rapture as a removal, to Heaven, of the Saints, as the spectacle of God's Judgement is laid open to all in His Presence.
Fourthly, the Trump of God. I realize that this is commonly taken to refer to the last Trumpet in Rev 10:7 & it appears as a correct assumption. However, whenever the trumpet is sounded, it can also be in relation to a heralding ( Ex 19:13; Lev 25:9; Josh 6:5, etc.), so the last Trump may even be the final 'clarion sound' from a series of earlier trumpet calls to the nations (e.g. Ps 47:5; Isa 27:13; Jer 51:27). This is just a thought & certainly not assumed, but shared as another application to 1 Thes 4:16).
(onto Page 3.)
Hi Carlos. Good to connect with you again brother. You're probably well acquainted with my position with Eschatology as from my other comments, but to deal with the questions you asked:
I know I won't find agreement with other 'pre-Tribbers' either, but then where can you find two believers in total agreement on everything? So, it is my sense that wherever we find Jesus speaking on His second Coming, it is specifically on His Coming post Tribulation. I realize that certain folk see the Rapture events mentioned in the Gospels as well (e.g. "one taken, the other left", "of that day & hour knoweth no man", etc), but I believe that Jesus wasn't speaking about the Rapture; indeed, the Rapture was not even declared by the prophets or Christ.
So what then makes me understand the Rapture as an event, pre-Tribulation? As stated, firstly, it is the removal of the saints prior to the outpouring of God's Wrath. Whenever we see God's Wrath being poured out (& examples given earlier), His (righteous) people have been taken to safety. And I was specific about HIS Wrath as compared to the trials/tribulations that come upon us daily or even in an overwhelming way. And as been also stated by Ann & others, our sin has been judged at the Cross & we don't fall under His Hand again. Is it correct that we should presume that God will still need to pour out His Anger on His blood-bought, when God's Anger (& our sin) was laid upon Christ on our behalf (Propitiate: 1 Jn 2:2, 4:10)? Whereas, His Wrath must be directed to those who have rejected Him & His Christ, without even the seed of saving faith to secure them from any judgement.
(onto Page 2.)
John 16:33 was Jesus talking TO ISRAEL. Not us. Israel was going to be scattered very soon at the stoning of Stephen.
Israel is the Bride. We are the Body Of Christ. Big Difference. Satan is the "god" of this world and he is having his way with man and religion!
Paul is the only one in The Word Of God, Romans through Philemon, that tells you what your doctrine is today for this Age of Grace and salvation by grace by believeing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
One day, The Body of Christ will be taken, and then God is going to resume His prophetic program with Israel, and The Tribulation will culminate with the 2nd Coming Of Jesus Christ so ISRAEL will believe in THEIR Messiah, then The Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ on this earth; The Kingdom God promised to Abraham, then into eternity.
Read Paul's letters to find out that all our sins are forgiven, past present and future just by believing The Gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4 the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, all by grace through faith, no works, no law, just what Jesus Christ did for US!
Two different programs. Israel and The Body of Christ. Paul tells us in 2 Tim 2:15 . . . Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth; that WAY you know what is for ISRAEL and what is for The Body Of Christ.
Remember Jesus came for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel ( Matthew 10:6) Jesus was a minister of the circumcision ( Romans 15:8) Jesus came in the flesh for Israel ( Romans 9:5).
One day, God is going to gather ALL, BOTH Israel and The Body Of Christ, in ONE!
Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are in earth; even in him.
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