I think we all .Is the boat when it comes to the bible. Instead of bickering back and to, accept by faith that every word is true. Nothing in this world matters but the fact that our almighty GOD sent his only begotten SON into this world to die for sinners of which everyone is, because in Genesis when Adam disobeyed GOD it made all sinners. There is still sinners so as GOD'S people we should be
To Confused. I think looking at it that Adam sinned therefore we are all sinners it can lead to laying blame on someone else Adam for our sins which is not the intent of the Scriptures I think the intent is more that through Adam and Eve sin entered the world and is now present and because of that we now have a choice to do Good or evil. remember all was Good in the garden. So we are now in a fallen state and have choices to make to sin or not to sin and we all choose to sin one way or another through out our lives. Thank fully GOD has provided a way for us to be reconciled to HIM through HIS SON JESUS who is without sin precious is HIS name who took upon HIMSELF the sins of the whole world upon that cruel cross so we would all have an opportunity to repent and ask Forgiveness for our sins that we did will fully on our own accord. So we are not sinners because of Adam, Eve or anyone else but by our own choices. I hope and pray this is helpful for you GOD Bless on your journey.
A question I always ask with respect to Genesis 10 is, "Why did God spare Noah and his family, knowing they were also the product of Adam's sin and would eventually disobey God?"
The response is very simple. God could not destroy or take Noah up to heaven with Him and start over again. Why? Had God rid the earth of sinful humanity, He would not have been able to carry out His Plan. But what was God's Plan? His Plan, from before time or creation, was Christ ( Col 1:16). Everything was created FOR the purpose of Christ to enter creation to eradicate corruption in all of creation ( Heb 10:5).
It was necessary for God to continue with Noah, because Noah was part of the Plan drawn before creation, to continue the human race, so Christ could enter the world. God was not reacting to a situation gone bad, when He told Noah to build the Arc. He was implementing His Plan in keeping with what He had already outlined in the Book of Life. See Daniel 10:21, 12:1, Rev 13:8 and Ps 139:16, among others.
To have a better understanding of these things and why God allows evil, it is essential to know that God created with a specific Plan. He created to rid creation of evil. But to do that, He had to initiate a process that takes time. And that process involved a fallen humanity. Not that God caused men to sin, but He subjected men to sin, so He could, through Christ, squash it. The unfortunate fact is that creation is susceptible to corruption and the only way to fix it is Christ.
Reply to Too Confused on Genesis 10. My perspective on sin might be a little different, if you can stay with me. 2Tim1:9 and Titus1:2 tell us that God created with the Plan of Redemption in mind. That is, the Purpose for which God created, was to redeem us and all of creation (Rom8:17f), from corruption. That includes death, evil, pain, suffering, sin, moral and physical corruption. In fact, God created everything that exists so that Christ could have a human body through which to eradicate, annihilate, destroy, evaporate corruption for all eternity and thereby establish perfection forever (Heb10:5, Dan9:24).
The Bible tells us that the first one to be corrupted was an Angel (Isa14 and Eze28). His name was Lucifer. Then corruption was found in him. It should be noted that corruption is not something that happens overnight. It creeps in. When a piece of metal begins to rust, you might not even notice it. Corruption takes time. And just as Lucifer corrupted over time, Adam and Eve also corrupted over time. The Bible narrative in Genesis makes it seem as if once they ate the apple, they immediately became corrupt and sinful. But that is not realistic. A reading of Song of Solomon 2 paints a better picture of what happened in the Garden of Eden. In fact, Romans 8 tells us there were those alive at the time Adam and Eve lived, that did not commit the sin of Adam.
But God's Plan included Adam's fall, because had Adam not fallen into corruption, Christ would not have been part of the Plan. Unfortunately, Christ was necessary because corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Recall that the Plan came before the creation. Because the deterioration of the character and physical nature of Adam affected his genetic makeup, something we have a better understanding of today, his offspring (humanity) inherited his corrupt nature. Hence, we are all corrupt (Ps14:3).
So, sin is not entirely a matter of the will, but of a corrupt nature. PURPOSE DRIVEN CREATION
b. (following comment). "corruption is not something that happens overnight. It creeps in". And you gave an illustration of rust to metal. I'm from the stock that believe that as soon as sin entered Adam & Eve, they became sinners immediately & not over a period of time. My metaphor would be more of a glass of water to which some blue dye was poured in & the resultant instant complete enveloping change.
Also, your reference: " Romans 8 tells us there were those alive at the time Adam and Eve lived, that did not commit the sin of Adam." Apologies, I couldn't find any reference to this; maybe another Scripture.
c. "Christ was necessary because corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation". I agree that corruption (sin's results) is a consequence of creation, but I don't think it was an inevitable consequence. Creation was made perfect, & so only after the fall of man did sin have its consequence over creation. However, if you meant that God's Plan included Christ's coming because of the inevitable fall of man, then I agree with you.
Carlos, I found your comments, "My perspective on sin might be a little different" & following, a very interesting read, one of those posts that required much further thought & searching. I think I understand your stand, as declared, & also knowing that in written expression, one's full intent isn't always recognized, as one could do in speech. So, I will raise some of my own thoughts & I apologize if I have misunderstood you.
a. "the Purpose for which God created, was to redeem us and all of creation from corruption". It is true, that the Omniscient God already knew that His Son's coming & Sacrifice was imperative for sinful mankind & thus His Plan from the beginning included Jesus, but I laboured over your point that the creation of mankind was for our redemption. From Scripture, I see that God created all things, including Adam & Eve, & saw that all was to His Pleasure & Satisfaction, & then rested on the seventh day ( Gen 2:2,3). I simply can't see that we were created so that we could be redeemed; rather, we were created so that we & our descendants, could enjoy a perfect relationship with the Godhead & enjoying a perfect world to live in. The fact that Adam/Eve sinned & that nature passed onto us, was what God had already planned for & Jesus was in that Plan. Jesus, God's Word, was in Heaven (indeed, instrumental in the creative work: Col 1:15,16) & had no reason to be ever sent to Earth. The status quo was God's Plan & it was Perfect & as such there would have not been any need for Jesus' Coming, nor of His Millennial Rule, nor of new Heavens & Earth. Of course, from our viewpoint, that is hard to imagine, but now in His Mercy, He sent Him to us sinners, His very Own to redeem us. I can see what you're saying, but just felt that you have understood this aspect of creation differently: i.e. we were not created for redemption but for His Pleasure. (see next comment).
There's a Biblical principle that sin is passed from the third and fourth generation, but, BUT, Jesus is our great equalizer! Because if you make Jesus your Lord and Savior, then no matter what your parents or grandparents have done, or even you have done in the past you can be set free, all you have do is say, "Lord, I am a sinner, please forgive me for all my sins, and wash me clean so I can stand clean before You. Be my Savior and my Lord, make me into the person You want me to be, take all of me, I am Yours, in Jesus' precious Name."
Now, start reading your Bible, starting with the Gospel of John, then Romans, (they're in the New Testament) and stay connected to Christian people like this group, and when churches start opening up, find one in your neighborhood and become a part of them, you let them minister to you for a while, then get involved..
The purpose of creation from the very beginning, was Christ. God didn't create us so we could enjoy Him and have a wonderful world to live in, although we can enjoy that and are promised that as Believers. The fact is, the world is rotten and we are putrid.
People argue it is the fault of Free Will. But that is also a stretch. The Bible never says anything to that effect. We might have been created with the ability to choose, but our poor choices are the result of a corrupted nature. A perfect nature wouldn't sin. God didn't put Satan in the middle of the Garden to adorn it. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. The Angels rebelled. Men disobeyed. Eph4:22, Mk7:21, Rom1:21, Jer17:5.
A look at Scripture shows Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, death, to take away pain, suffering and establish eternal perfection (Dan9:24, 1Cor15:50). In Rom 8-10 we're told God placed us and all creation, to include Angels, in a corruptible creation, so He could fix the problem of corruption. See 1John3:8, Heb9:26, Eph1:11, 3:11. God's Will and Purpose cannot be thwarted.
Isa 46:10 - I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.' 48:7 - They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.' 46:11 -I declare the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.' I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it.
My point is God created with a Plan, a Purpose. He did not create knowing His creation was going to fail and He would have to rescue it. He created specifically to destroy so much as the potential for corruption ( Heb 2:14).
7. Rom 5:13-15. I understand these verses (in paraphrase) to read: (v 13) 'until the delivery of the Law, sin was already in the world, but sin is not chargeable when there is no law'. So, without a Law, sin, though evident, is not chargeable. True, the Mosaic Law was not given at that time, but the Law of God was still evident with Adam & Eve, directly from the Mouth of God. Whether they learned their lesson from this & somehow resisted any other sin is unknown, but sin took its root in them. (v 14) 'death passed on from Adam to Moses (until the written Law), & sin affected all even those who didn't sin in the way that Adam/Eve sinned, & Adam being a figure of the One Who was to come'. (v 15) 'because of Adam, death has come to all, by Jesus Christ (the last Adam), God's Gift of Grace has been made available to many'.
So, "God created with the knowledge and understanding corruption would materialize with creation. No creation, no corruption". I agree with this statement that God knew that corruption would result in His Creation, but I have argued against 'that God had planned for this to happen so that His Son could come to Earth to redeem sinners'. God knew that Jesus would one day have to lay down His Life, but Creation wasn't planned to that end, or else, why even bother to create? Why put your Son to such agony, even as a man, & grieve your Own Heart so bitterly, just to fulfil Your Plan to have Your Son die for us? I'll leave it here & wonder whether this part of the thread is worth pursuing, unless there is some specific clarification I need. Thank you again for your time & clarity in your expression.
4. "Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation". We dealt with this before as I believe it wasn't inevitable at creation, but was inevitable as a result of man's disobedience. I also read through Rom 8,10 & could find no reference to God "placing all of His creation, including Angels, in a corruptible creation, so he could fix the problem of corruption". I did find Rom 8:19,38 on angels, but this had nothing to do with your statement.
5. Isa 48:7. "they are created now & not from the beginning.." 'Created', from the Hebrew, 'ginetai' = done now. In other words, all those hidden things of God have now been brought to light. Don't want to dwell on this, as there's opportunity for dispute here.
6. The Genesis account. Eve no doubt contemplated & was attracted by the fruit. Satan's involvement added further fuel to her thoughts, but she initially resisted him. Her innocency was real till that point: once the fruit was taken & eaten, sin entered. I simply can't fathom an extended time of sin's maturation in Adam & Eve for sin to finally develop. In that case, maybe if they were smart, they could have sought forgiveness & thus avoided sin taking root & becoming sin. Two trees: Tree of the knowledge of Good & Evil and Tree of Life. Do you see personalities in these trees? I know that in Rev 22:2, the Tree of Life is present. (onto Page 5).
2. "The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose". Before offering comment, I do read your quoted references so that I get the fullest picture of what you are saying, though in my understanding of those Scriptures, I generally fail to apply the connection you intend. If the future is created by God for His Purposes, then is He instrumental in creating things that are not of His Character as well? If "No", then where does His purpose in creating the future stop & evil begin (within the scope of His 'planned' Knowledge, of course)? I simply can't grapple with such a concept, as a Holy God can't create the future & also create a sin situation so that His Purposes may be fulfilled. An illustration: A doctor goes on a walk & pushes over a ladder that has a man standing high above just so that he would fall & break some bones (i.e. planning the Future), so that he could practise some medical work on him (i.e. fulfilling that plan). One could wonder what sort of doctor, indeed human being, is he! I think you can see how perplexed I am with such a teaching.
3. "God didn't create us so we could enjoy Him and have a wonderful world to live in". And then you mention that the "world is rotten & we are putrid". We are talking about the intent of God to create a perfect world with perfect people so they might worship Him & enjoy Him. After the fall, of course, we indeed became putrid & the Purpose of God in Creation was thwarted (& yet, not without Him knowing all things, that this would happen). (onto Page 4).
1. Col 1:16": "..created for Christ". So after looking at the comments you make on this & indeed one of the central 'beliefs' you hold, 'is that creation's existence, is for the entrance of Christ into the world to accomplish God's Plan'. Then if I may ask: why should Christ need to come into the world in the first place? Christ didn't have any reason to come here, except for the fallen state of His created 'man'. You state, "What the Bible tells us is that all things were created FOR Christ to enter creation to accomplish God's Plan". Did God then create man so that Christ could come into the world to save him from sin's penalty? Then why not save Christ the trouble of coming by not creating man? But if it was His Plan to do so, then was He under compulsion to create man & his directive for him to sin, so that Christ could then come to save him, since He planned for Him to come? Does this then, make God a Supporter of evil so that His Plan could be accomplished? (I say this, trembling). Did Satan have no choice (or, maybe even prompted by God) to come & tempt man, & accomplish his purpose, so that Christ could come to save man? Then your comment would then make sense, "Corruption is an inevitable consequence of creation": God's creation was formed for the sole purpose of corruption so that His Christ could fulfil His Plan for removing that corruption. Where I have I misunderstood that understanding? And I beg your forgiveness, because what I've asked above is purely to try & understand concepts that I believe are strange to the meaning of Scripture; so I ask for more light on your beliefs. (onto Page 3).
Carlos, thanks for the time you've taken to deal with those points raised & apologies for taking time to respond. I should state, that my understanding of the Scriptures is not necessarily "what the modern Church has taught for the last few centuries", but from my own study of the Word & looking at cross references ensuring applicability. There are however, subjects that I would take the "modern Church" to task over which would only make this thread too ambiguous, if added here.
So, as I write, I do so from a careful consideration of the substance of the Scripture & using other Scriptures in support of it. You too have sent references, but as I studied them to see your point, I see that these references are based on & in the support of the assumptions you make & therefore they become strange to my reading as I see them in a different light & context. You mentioned the following: "All things have been created for Christ"; "The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose"; "we are not the object of creation. Christ is"; "Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation"; & "God created to eradicate corruption", are most of what I was able to glean. Since dealing with all this becomes a lengthy exercise, I will try to attend to them briefly. (onto page 2).
Chris, I like these conversations because they make us think and search the Scriptures. Thanks for your comments. Your perspective is what the modern church has taught for the last few Centuries.
You say, "we were created [to] enjoy a perfect relationship with the Godhead & enjoying a perfect world to live in." And of course, that is what we are taught. That is our doctrine. But there is a greater truth we miss.
First of all, All things were created FOR Christ Col 1:16. What does that little tiny word mean? Did God create us for Us or FOR Christ? What does it mean that we were created for God's Pleasure? Is it so Christ could have someone to play with? Is it so Christ could have someone to help him with creation? Is it for the enjoyment of Christ? I bought a car for my son. I did that so he could go to school, work and out with his friends. Is that what FOR means here? What the Bible tells us is that all things were created FOR Christ to enter creation to accomplish God's Plan. In Heb 10:5 and Ps 40, we are told we were created so Christ could have a body in the image of God. In Titus 1:2, Paul says God's Plan from before creation, from before time even began, was a Plan of Redemption in Christ. All things are done FOR Christ to overcome corruption, evil, death, pain, suffering.
Secondly, Christ didn't enter the world in response to what Adam and Eve did. In the OT we read over and over, "I raised him up for my Purpose." Daniel says things to come are written in the Book of Truth. Revelation calls it the Book of Life. In Isaiah 44-48 God says He knows what is going to happen because He creates it then and there. The idea that God knows the future out of intuition, perception, vision or all-knowingness, because He is not restricted by time/space, is not Biblical. The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose.
Thirdly, we are not the object of creation. Christ is. If we were, God failed. Think about that. See Dan 9:24, Rom 8.
There is a lot to digest here, Chris. You bring up very good points. To your point b. Paul says "evil company corrupts good morals." Most people that engage in criminal activity or become addicted to something, experience a draw or deterioration over time. The devil, for example, did not corrupt instantly. Ezk28 tells us it became noticeable. He didn't wake up one day and say to himself, "Lucifer, today I become the devil." Even your analogy of dye in the glass requires a process. First it has to filter through the water. Then it becomes noticeable as the water changes color. God told the Israelites that although they wanted things done quickly, He had a Plan and it was in the works. Who said, "You have need of patience...". But the most obvious example of the process is Christ's appearance at the appointed time.
The Genesis story of the Garden is not complete. It is simplistic to believe Eve ate a fruit and she was instantly poisoned. There is more to the story. See Songs 2. She sat by the shade of the Tree. She contemplated its fruit. She was attracted to its glitter. And so was Adam. They were created in innocence. They were coaxed to become involved with the devil. God told them He did not want them to have anything to do with that Tree. By the way, what kind of tree was it? Were there any others like it? Or was it one of a kind? What does the Bible say? There were two Trees in the Garden. WHO were they? One bite and Eve became instantly aware of the difference between good and evil? Back to Paul, evil company...
Sorry, the quote on those that didn't sin same as Adam is found in Rom5:13-15. I hope I am doing this reading justice. What does it mean?
Your point c. God created to eradicate corruption. That's clear from Dan9:24 and others. If God created with a Plan and a Purpose, then sin was a consequence of creation. God created with the knowledge and understanding corruption would materialize with creation. No creation, no corruption.
In a recent conversation with a friend, I asked if she understood and could explain why keeping the Sabbath was so important to God, that He would even include it in the 10 Commandments.
I've enjoyed these discussions too, in fact I find myself staying up much later than I should, just to get on an interesting topic.
The original discussion post was NOT "Confused", though, that one caught my eye, because nothing in this world is more important than making sure their right with the Lord, because we as believers, already know, 'God is NOT the author of confusion but of peace' 1 Cor 13:33... but the original text was from Patricia
[I think we all .Is the boat when it comes to the bible. Instead of bickering back and to, accept by faith that every word is true. Nothing in this world matters but the fact that our almighty GOD sent his only begotten SON into this world to die for sinners of which everyone is, because in Genesis when Adam disobeyed GOD it made all sinners. There is still sinners so as GOD'S people we should be.]
Though true, not sure what that had to do with Genesis 10
As for whether it's a salvation issue, or a theological issue the bottom line for me is this: 1) Genesis 10 talks about the generations, (genealogy) of the sons of Noah not only as God's Written Word, but a historical document one can trust. 2) A reference guide.
Though I appreciate reading from those much more knowledgeable then I, I believe, this is the original meaning of this text, nothing hidden, it's just like it says.
Chris, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Wish everyone in the Christian world shared your perspective and attitude. I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been and I might not even have a good grasp of what I am trying to say. But let me try to explain.
In 2Peter3:16 we are warned to be attentive, because some usurp Scripture to their destruction. Paul in 1Cor11:16 also cautions us of excesses. But there are those that have created insulated cultures based on strict enforcement of unnecessary rules and conditions. Sometimes we refer to these as cults, but they are also found among denominations. They emphasize duties, that when violated, lead to losing salvation. Sabbath, Tithing, dress, works, adherence to OT restrictions, attending services 5 times a week. The list is endless. Pay attention to Gal2-4, 2:15-3:5, 3:28, 4:8-10. Shouldn't we live by our trust in Christ, instead of our list of do's and don'ts?
That is not to say we shouldn't be organized and observe good conduct. But not as a basis for salvation.
Chris, you are exactly right. I share your feelings. Thanks for clarifying on Confused. Genesis 10 outlines the beginning of the new generations from which Christ would enter the world. But there is something in the entire account of the Noahic account and the Ark that brings up a very important questions.
Did Noah only have 3 kids in the 950 years he lived?
Why did God spare Noah and his family, considering they were as corrupt as everyone else?
Why not just start creation all over again, in a setting that wasn't as conducive to sin, rebellion, disobedience and corruption?
We covered some of this in our previous discussions, but more is better.
Chris. Still on Page 3. You say that after the Fall "the Purpose of God in Creation was thwarted". I am certain you don't believe that. You just haven't examined the thought. What does the Bible say about God and His Purpose? It specifically says it cannot be thwarted. The Purpose of God will stand.
Isaiah 14:24, 26-27 - The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand. This the plan devised for the whole earth, and this is the hand stretched out over all the nations. The LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who can thwart Him? His hand is outstretched, so who can turn it back?
Ephesians 1:4-5 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.
Isaiah 46:9-11 - Remember what happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. I distinguish the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come, saying: 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.' I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it.
Isaiah 48:3 - I foretold the former things long ago; they came out of My mouth and I proclaimed them.
Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.
Acts 4:28 - They carried out what Your hand and purpose had decided beforehand would happen.
Daniel 4:35 - All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?'"
The confidence we have is that God is trustworthy. He is not fickle. If God says we will be eternally perfect, we will be. If God had created Adam and Eve perfect, they would have been. And neither they, nor the devil would have rebelled against God.
Chris, Page 3. If God intended to create a perfect world, what happened? You say He knew man would fail. If while knowing man would fail, God created a world that allowed man to fail, was His intent to create a perfect world? Or was God caught by surprise? If God's intent was perfection, why did He plant a bad Tree in the middle of the Garden? Why did He send Satan to the earth and placed him right smack in the middle of the Garden? Or was God not aware that by placing Satan in the Garden, he would tempt Adam and Eve and cause them to disobey God?
Can a perfect God fail? Is it possible for perfection to decay? If it was God's intent to make man perfect, why didn't He give man perfect wisdom and common sense? Can a perfect being be deceived? Can a perfect God be deceived? Were the Angels created perfect? Was the universe created perfect? Do perfect things corrupt?
My conclusion, based on verses previously noted, is that God did not create a perfect world. He created an existence perfectly suited for His Purpose in Christ, who created everything that exists so He could enter His creation to make it perfect. Man was not perfect, because he could die. Were that not the case, the Tree of Life would have been meaningless. He was not perfect because he could fail. He wasn't perfect because God created him so Christ could enter creation and die. If men could not die, the Plan to have Christ born to die would have been a contradiction. Man had to die, so Jesus could die. Remember, the Plan for Christ to redeem mankind and all creation, through death, was completed before the Fall. Recall the story of Jacob and Esau.
Death is the result of corruption. Whether Adam corrupted instantly or over time, is inconsecuential. Wether the devil corrupted instantly is also inconsequential. The fact is that they were capable of being corrupted. That makes them not perfect. In the perfect world to come, there will be no decay. All things will last forever incorruptible.
Chris, on to Page 3. The future does not exist. There can be no such thing as a future we can look into and determine what is going to happen. Isaiah 48 is clear on that. However, there appear to be certain things written in what Daniel 10:21 refers to as the Book of Truth, that give us a glimpse of things that God has determined will take place.
The Future as an observable entity one can observe or even travel into is a logical contradiction and practical impossibility. If there were such a thing as a Future God could be aware of, outside of Himself, then God would be subject to whatever is set in that Future. That is, if God is aware of events outside of Himself, that will take place, then He is bound by that knowledge and can't act to change what He knows to be true. God would therefore, not be free. The Future would determine what He does, given that what He knows about what will happen as fact, must happen. Let me explain. If God knows, through intuition, knowledge, vision, prescience or because He is all-knowing, then what He knows to be the fact, must in fact happen. Otherwise, He would be wrong about what He understood or the Future would not be certain.
If the Future God knows is not certain, then what God knows, is questionable. But if what He knows about the Future is in fact true, then God is locked into behaving as the Future reveals and incapable of changing it. Example: Jesus knows the Temple will be torn down at a specific time in the future. If the Temple is not torn down at that time, then Jesus was wrong about what He knew about future events. In other words, what Jesus knows about the future, has to take place. Otherwise, He doesn't know the future.
Therefore, we have to conclude that if God tells us something that will happen, it is not because He has some insight into the future. It has to be because He specifically planned and set it up that way. God cannot be a prisoner of the future. He has to be logically able to act freely.
Chris, again you ask, "God's creation was formed for the sole purpose of corruption, so His Christ could fulfill His Plan for removing that corruption"?
Again the answer is, 'somewhat'. The Bible says Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, death, evil and corruption. The Bible also says that was God's Plan before time even began ( Titus 1:2). If God planned the eradication of corruption (sin, evil, death, decay, pain, suffering), before any of it existed, then God created, in part to remove corruption from created things.
If we can apply Daniel 9:24 to Christ, we can conclude that Christ came to get rid of corruption and establish eternal perfection. Throughout Scripture we see that God's purpose is to put an end to corruption (wickedness, evil). The hope of the Christian is that we will live in eternal incorruptibility ( 1 Cor 15:53).
So, to accomplish His purpose of a perfect existence, God had to create the imperfect creation that exists. God not only understood, in His wisdom and infinite knowledge, that corruption would affect creation, He planned for it. I repeat my previous assertion that, corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Were that not true, God would not have created an existence susceptible to corruption. Why would He? Consequently, He had to create the existence He created and make arrangements to make it perfect. To achieve perfection, all we have experienced had to happen.
It was because of that, that God ceased His creative work on the 7th Day. God stopped creating, because He created with a Purpose. There isn't anything in the Bible that even suggests God created mankind for mankind's own sake. The only thing I see we are left with, is that God created for Christ to put an end to corruption in creation. As we can see from Hebrews 3-4, we are still in the 7th Day of God's rest. That's to say, God did not resume creating things the morning after the 7th Day. And God won't resume creating until Christ returns.
You ask, "Did God create man so that Christ could come into the world to save him from sin's penalty?"
My response is No. Keep in mind the Angels also sinned. Why didn't God save the Angels? Why create man so Christ could enter creation to save men? For whatever reason, Christ created man and entered the world as a man, to vanquish the devil ( Heb 2:14). Wasn't there a better way? Obviously not.
Consequently, because God created an existence susceptible to corruption ( Rom 8), we have to conclude that He created it that way because it was an absolute necessity. It could not have been done any other way. So God could have created a different existence, if and only if it were not necessary to create it as He did. 1 Peter 1:11, "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?" Peter tells us that even the Angels wait anxiously for our redemption, because their salvation depends on our salvation.
The Bible is clear. Christ didn't just come to save mankind from its sin. He came to redeem all of creation from its corruption. It so happens, God had to do that, of necessity, through the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ. See Heb 2:10-17, 1 Cor 2:7.
Rom 8:19-22, "The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time."
God did not cause anyone to sin or corrupt. For whatever reason unknown to us, corruption is present in creation. To achieve eternal perfection in things created, God Planned Christ ( Rev 21:4, Acts 13:37). Why things deteriorate is a mystery of the physical laws of the material universe and the angelic realm.
Everything in Scripture, from Genesis 1-3:15 to Revelation 22 is about Christ. Everything points to Christ. God said in Isaiah 46:10 that His Purpose would stand. And in 14:24, "The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "As I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand."
If Christ was not the purpose of creation and all things were not created for His incarnation, death and resurrection, as stated in Col 1:16, Rom 11:36 and Heb 10:5, what was the purpose of creation? The entire Bible is dedicated to Christ and 2Tim 1:9 tells us it was "by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal."
I would argue that if the Plan of Salvation was drawn up before the Fall, in fact, before time/space, then creation had to have been for and about Christ. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, to vanquish death, to redeem His creation and to establish eternal perfection.
So, if God knew man would fail, before He even created man, why did He create man and why send Christ to redeem him? Why not just create people that would not sin? After all, isn't that what we are promised in Heaven? Isn't the promise, abundant life for all eternity, where neither sin nor moth corrupt? Why did God subject all of creation to all this trouble ( Rom 8) just to get to perfection and a sinless eternity?
The argument is, man has free will and s/he can't have free will unless they have the ability or possibility to rebel, disobey, sin. But if that is the case, will we have free will in Heaven? And if we do, will anyone rebel? And if we have free will, why do we pray, Your Will Be Done? Why would God create a being with free will, then ask him to relinquish it? Why not create a being like those that will exist in eternity?
The fact is all creation was subjected to suffering, because it was necessary ( Rom 8). Just as necessary will be the release of Satan after his 1,000 incarceration ( Rev 20:7). Why? All things are for Christ ( Col 1:16).
So Chris, with respect to your questions, listed below, I offer what follows.
A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48
B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36
C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16
D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24
E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2
To A: I don't think anyone can argue that Christ was not in the initial Plan of creation, given Jesus created all things. Titus 1:2 and 2 Tim 1:9 are unequivocal. The Plan of Redemption was drawn up before anything was created. We can legitimately conclude from that, that the coming of Christ in a human body ( Heb 10:5), was intentional. Redemption was not offered in reaction to the Fall. Jesus prayed to the Father to, "glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed". 1 John 5:20, John 1:18.
If all things were created for the sake of Jesus ( Col 1:16), doesn't it seem obvious that Jesus was part of the Plan of Creation? There is no indication in Scripture that Jesus was an afterthought? In these verses, we are told that Christ's incarnation was in the original blueprints, before mankind was created. Acts 2:23Eph 1:4.
What did Jesus mean when He stated in John 8:58, "Before Abraham existed, I Am"? Keep in mind that it is Jesus speaking. Was He simply saying He is God? Or was He saying He as Savior existed before creation? That is, Christ existed. Not Jehovah existed. Christ existed and He is God. John 1 attests to that. In John 17:24 Jesus says God loved Him before creation. Loved who? God loved God? No. God loved Jesus, the Savior.
Rev 13:8, 17:8 also reveal that prior to the Fall, the names of the saved were written in the Book of Life. What's up with that? Jesus came before the Fall.
Chris, on Page 1 & 2. Thank you for your response and for continuing the conversation. I like controversy and ambiguity in a discussion, because it allows you to explore further and examine yourself and the substance of your beliefs.
That said, you have correctly outlined my points in page 1. They are, as you summarized:
1. All things have been created for Christ
2. The Future does not exist
3. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose
4. We are not the object of creation, Christ is
5. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation
6. God created to eradicate corruption
In Page 2 you ask and I cite some Scriptures:
A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48
B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36
C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16
D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24
E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2
In Ephesians 3:10-11 Paul opens a window so we can get a glimpse of why God created mankind. It was to make the Wisdom of God known to "the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms". That is a lot to absorb. And how was that Purpose accomplished? Through Christ. In 1Cor 4:9, 15:50f, 1Pet 1:12 we see that our human existence is only part of what comprises the Mystery of God's Purpose, which includes more than just us. Nevertheless, everything hinges on humanity. So, for the Purpose of God concerning all of creation, Christ came into the world. There is a war raging in the spiritual realm, we know nothing about.
I'll try to address your questions A-E in the next post. They are complex and not easy to answer. But I will try. What I want everyone to keep in mind is, as Rom 11:36 says, all things were created 'from him and through him and for him are all things'.
Chris, on your point 6, Page 4, I believe the Trees in the Garden are representative of Satan and Christ. Association with one results in separation from God and the other, eternal life with God. In Rev the Tree of Life is identified as Jesus. In another place we are encouraged to taste to confirm that God is good. Yet in another, we are given an outline of the Fruit of the Spirit.
The Genesis account of the Garden is clearly allegorical. And the Tree of the knowledge...is no exception. Knowledge is absorbed through time and experience. When Paul says that evil company corrupts good morals, do you think he means that as soon as you enter the presence of an evil person, you become instantly corrupt? Corruption, by definition, is a deterioration of something good. It involves a decomposition, breakdown, deterioration, a weakening disintegration of something whole. Fruit putrefy because they begin to decompose. Animals die because their systems begin to break down and weaken. Taking my lead from Songs 2-5, which mirror events in the Garden of Eden, I see a slow progression from innocence to craftiness. It wasn't just one bite of a non-existent fruit that corrupted them. It was the constant association with what God told them to stay away from.
Was there a fruit for the Tree of Life? What did it mean to eat from the Tree of Life? What does it mean now? Will we become instantly perfect when we eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life? Rev 22:2 tells us the Tree of Life yields 12 different kinds of fruit. Are these fruit physical and eatable? Clearly not. Is there a correlation between the two Trees in the Garden? Can one be metaphorical, but not the other? If one symbolizes Christ, is the other literal?
Christ was tempted by the devil 40 days. He wasn't confronted just once with 3 temptations. These temptations were spread over the course of Christ's time in the desert. My point is that Adam and Eve were coaxed over time, because their character deteriorated.
And as I'm about to send this off, I see another comment from you, re: the two trees. And now I focus on: "The Genesis account of the Garden is clearly allegorical." Taking a deep breath & staying focussed, I believe that I can now in truth, understand how you are perceiving Scripture. To say that the Garden of Eden & subsequent events were an allegory, leaves a great chasm between us that can never diminish. If that Garden was an allegory, what about when Jesus was led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil? One could allegorize this as well quite easily. Therefore, I feel that I now have a handle on your thoughts about all we discussed, and that is, we are basically viewing the Scriptures in quite different ways. Again, thank you for your time Carlos, & I will attend to other points that you might raise, but of course with a better understanding of your perceptions.
But where my problem lies, is from one of our earlier discussions on: 'God's whole plan for Creation was to have Christ come into His Creation as a Man, to redeem man from his corruption' (or words to that effect). To me, that sounds like God's creation of man was unnecessary except to be the 'vehicle' for Christ's physical embodiment to lay down His Life. I disputed that, even to this time I find no need for God to even create man, if it was only for Christ's Sacrificial purposes. Why create man in the first place, I think was my original question? I believe you referred to God's Planning in your answer: that it was in God's original design that man would be born into corruption, hence the Plan for Christ's appearance. It is this issue that I stumbled on (as well as God's Planning vs His Foreknowledge).
Again, I agree that Christ's coming was in God's original Design to rescue fallen man, but to just create man for no other reason except for Christ's humanity, I find my mind unable to grasp such a thought. And at that time, we had discussed the purposes of man's creation. I had said that it was for God's Pleasure (He saw that ALL of His Creation was good/very good) & that His creation (man) had the privilege of living amongst all of God's Creation & enjoying a pure & holy relationship with his Maker: even as His other Creation (angels) are now enjoying. Another answer to this question, I don't have, as I'm not privy to it, but to believe man's creation was just for the entrance of Christ, is strange. To all this you did disagree, & I accept that since it is not specified as such, just my supposition from the tenor of relevant Scripture.
Carlos, your comment (May 13th) is not posted in this section even though I'm directed to it. So I'll respond anyway, reading if off my email.
I do agree with you on all of your points, i.e. Christ was given a body as man's; all the relevant Scriptures point to this event (Abel's offering & Abraham's offering of Isaac, & many others that signify the need for Christ to ultimately make payment for sins, for which animal sacrifices could not). I agree as well to, "is it fair to conclude that both the Shadow and the object that casts that Shadow, Christ, were for Christ to enter the world as the True Sacrificial Lamb?" Yes, this is the correct conclusion.
You quote Isa 40:3. I wish I could find my reference to that as it's not in the referenced thread. I think some of my pages sent to you & probably others from you have been clipped. I had sent four pages recently, but only one (the fourth page: the two trees) appears. I just don't recall using Isa 40:3 at this juncture. So, in truth, you have expressed yourself very clearly & I've had no difficulty in understanding your points & I find myself in complete agreement with them in your post. (onto page 2)
You said: "I repeat my previous assertion that, corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Were that not true, God would not have created an existence susceptible to corruption." So the other aspect I see here (in a similar thought to 'Planning' & 'Foreknowledge'), is that you are possibly viewing God's Plans from the end & working backwards; so working backwards: God's Plan was to have a perfect restoration of all things since creation would undoubtedly be corrupted (i.e. the end of the Plan), but to get there, Satan had to be locked away for good, Christ had to come for sin, corruption of man & His other creation had to happen, Satan had to come into the picture, & therefore, God had to make a creation susceptible to that end (the beginning of the Plan). I realize you may not see it this way, indeed I may be quite wrong, but it's the only way I can make sense of your views.
My view (with the Foreknowledge of God) works from the beginning: Creation of all things is perfect, Satan entered, man sinned, corruption of man & creation occurred, Christ had to come, Satan would be locked away, & God's Plan for a perfect restoration of all things realized. Anyway, as I said, this type of view (of Planning or Foreknowledge) does help me understand. (onto Page 4)
The word that I find is better suited is 'Foreknew'. Using the same scenarios of a world created perfect but would ultimately be corrupted, that man would fall into sin of his own choosing, that Satan would undoubtedly tempt him to do so, etc., are what I see as God's Foreknowledge, rather than His Planning. Even after studying your detailed explanation on these matters, I cannot fathom a Holy God planning to engineer certain things (which would necessarily include sin) from Creation to the full restoration of all things in the future, so that His Plans & Purposes would be realized. I rather see that He foreknew all things, that even in Creation, he knew man would corrupt himself, that Satan would not be far away, that the sacrificial system given to Israel was only temporary & a shadow of the True, that Christ must needs come to deal with the sin issue, that Satan would be finally be locked away & full restoration of all things be accomplished. Now how this 'foreknowledge' of God relates to His 'Planning' to accomplish all things, maybe a 'fine line' of interpretation. But I see that God's Foreknowledge determined His Plan to accomplish His Purposes, & that nothing would take Him by surprise, for He already knew all about all events. I agree, that He knew beforehand that His perfect Creation would one day succumb to corruption, but I see that He also continued on with creating, knowing that through man's knowledge of his sinfulness & need of a Saviour (which man couldn't provide), that the love the man lost because of sin & separation to God, would now be restored in full measure in the knowledge of God's Love for him in Jesus. (onto Page 3).
Carlos, I had replied to the first page you posted in your lengthy response to me, but I don't see it anywhere, so I'm going to try & deal with the crux of these matters, though appreciating the time you've taken in your detailed response. As well, I'm now inundated with your further postings, finding myself quite buried & gasping for air. I have looked at all of them, but I don't think I have the capacity & fortitude to deal with each matter. So with apologies for dealing so briefly as opposed to the time you've kindly expended to me, I write the following:
The two key words used here is 'Planned' & 'Foreknew'. You have used the word 'Planned' often & I think that I'm not seeing the meaning in your way. Planning, for me, is when (in human terms), one sits down & sets a Plan on paper which brings in all manner of aspects for consideration, including possibilities for the proposed Plan to go one way or the other, hurdles, time lines, etc. When I apply it to God planning for certain things to happen (e.g. creation of man so that Christ could come to save him; planning the future so that certain things could happen & God Himself would be subject to it, etc.), I think of just that: God has laid out a Plan for events, good & bad, to happen & so His Purposes are fulfilled. That man was created into corruption, so Christ could enter that world of corruption to rid man & the world of it, was His Plan, causes me to gasp at such a thought. (onto Page 2)
Romans 8:19-23 - The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
1 Peter 1:10-12 - which things the angels desire to look into.
You are right. While the passage mentions that creation was subjected to futility, it does not mention Angels. I must have assumed it did. I was wrong. Thank you for pointing that out. What I think the passage does mention is God's Plan to eradicate corruption, when it says, "in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay". What I thought the passage said about the Angels is found in 1 Peter, but I was wrong about that too and I am glad you corrected me. The Bible does not say Angels will benefit from God's Plan of Redemption.
My argument, however, is that God's eternal Plan was for the annihilation of corruption, which includes death and evil. Isaiah 25:8 - He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
I suppose my thinking was that because Angels were also created and were subject to corruption, the Plan included them. But that was a stretch. As you pointed out, there is no mention of that at all.
Carlos, thanks for attempting to respond to my queries: you're a brave man especially as our responses can go all over the place! To your answers:
A. I don't have a problem of maintaining that Christ was already in God's Plan in Creation, as God, being God, already knows the future & His Plans for it. It's the other postulations that concern me.
B. Heb 10:5, speaks of the temporary, deficient & incompleteness of the sacrificial system & that only God's offering would accomplish God's Purposes. It does not speak of man being created to open the way for Christ to come & be his Sacrifice. And with Gal 3:16 & Rom 11:36, I can't see any connection.
C. Heb 2 & Gal 3:16: sorry, I can't see in these references anything about God having to create man so as to then send His Son for man's sake.
D. Rom 9:22-24. This shows that God was 'long suffering' towards 'sinners' awaiting the time He would show His great Mercy towards them. I don't see in this that God supported evil (i.e. he partook of or gave His assent to evil, so as to accomplish His Purposes).
E. Job 1:12. God allowed Satan to test Job's faithfulness & conviction, not in bringing Satan to test Job.
Mt 4:1; Lk 4:2. Ditto. Again, Satan approached Jesus, not brought to Him by God.
Eph 3:10, 11. The theme of this begins in verse 3. It was about the "mystery of Christ". And what was it? In verse 6, "That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs (with the Jews), and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the Gospel." "And this mystery would be made known to all men (v 9) & to all the heavenly host (v 10), as well as from the Church's existence & testimony of this mystery, of God's manifold Wisdom". I've added words here, only for clarity, as in the original the intent is unclear. Of course, with any addition, comes another interpretation, so I leave this open.
Chris, following up on where I left off. As you point out, Hebrews 10:5 "speaks of the temporary, deficient & incompleteness of the sacrificial system & that only God's offering would accomplish God's Purposes." So, the logical conclusion is that if:
1. God prepared a body for Christ
2. And He prepared that human body before creation ( 2 Tim 1:9)
3. And God created mankind in His image
4. Then, can we conclude God created man so Christ could have a human body in His image?
Or was it accidental? God either created man in His image on purpose and with a purpose, or the body for Christ was a convenient accident. Wasn't the Law, to include sacrifices, set up by God as a Shadow of what was to come? If the Law was a Shadow, what was it a Shadow of? For there to be a Shadow, there has to be a real object that casts that Shadow. And which comes first, the shadow or the object that casts that Shadow? Col 2:17. And if a Shadow, when was that Shadow cast? When God used an animal to clothe Adam and Eve? When Abel offered a better sacrifice than Cain? Or when Abraham offered his son on the altar?
We see from these Scriptures, I hope, the Shadow of Christ's Sacrifice was cast prior to anything being created. Heb 8:5. Consequently, is it fair to conclude that both the Shadow and the object that casts that Shadow, Christ, were for Christ to enter the world as the True Sacrificial Lamb? Col 2:17, Isa 49:6, 51:5.
Isaiah 40:3 sounds the call to prepare the way for the Lord. You said, "It does not speak of man being created to open the way for Christ to come & be his Sacrifice." But if the call is not to man, who is the call to? Who was to come? A man. Why did God make man in His image? Because an animal could not meet the needs only the Man Christ could satisfy.
And when did Christ start casting the Shadow? He started casting the Shadow back to the beginning of time, from the 1st Century Cross, to before creation. John 8:58. Which came 1st, Man, Shadow or Christ?
Chris, You state your points clearly, convincingly and succinctly. I wish I had that talent. And I wonder if saying the same thing a different way will move the conversation so those that read it will benefit. And although you grasp much of what I say, I wonder if there's more I haven't said or haven't said well. So I will outline my understanding below.
Before God created anything, He Planned His creation
Christ, as Savior, was included in that Plan
The Plan also included Redemption
The eradication of Wickedness (corruption)
Vanquishing Death
Establishing Eternal Perfection
Creation of Mankind
A Material creation as a parenthesis in eternity, With a beginning and an end
At some point in time or before time Lucifer and other Angels rebelled
The devil was banished to the Garden of Eden
Man was created and placed in the Garden
God Planted 2 Trees in the Garden before the Fall
The devil tempted Adam and Eve
They sinned and all mankind was imputed with the penalty
Does the Bible say God knew Adam would to disobey Him? No. It implies He was not aware Gen 3:11
If God did know, why didn't He stop them? God had a Plan called His "Eternal Purpose" Eph 1:4-11, 3:11, Isa 46:10-11
Why did God create man, knowing man would disobey? For Christ Col 1:16, Rom 11:36
Why did God get rid of everyone but Noah? His Promise and Covenant Gen 3:15
Why did God create man in His image? To prepare a body for Christ. Ps 40:6, Heb 10:5
Why did God Plant the Tree of Life in the Garden, before the Fall? We don't know Gen 3:22, 24
Who is the Tree of Life? Jesus? Rev 22:2
Who is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? The devil Eze 31, Matt 12:33-34
Were Adam and Eve given a choice on whether to eat from the Tree of KGE or others? No. Gen 3
Why did God include Christ in His Pre-creation Plan? To rescue all things created from perdition Eph 1:10, Col 1:20
What was God's pre-creation Purpose? To reconcile all things in heaven and earth to Himself Col 1:13-20, Eph 1:10
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The response is very simple. God could not destroy or take Noah up to heaven with Him and start over again. Why? Had God rid the earth of sinful humanity, He would not have been able to carry out His Plan. But what was God's Plan? His Plan, from before time or creation, was Christ ( Col 1:16). Everything was created FOR the purpose of Christ to enter creation to eradicate corruption in all of creation ( Heb 10:5).
It was necessary for God to continue with Noah, because Noah was part of the Plan drawn before creation, to continue the human race, so Christ could enter the world. God was not reacting to a situation gone bad, when He told Noah to build the Arc. He was implementing His Plan in keeping with what He had already outlined in the Book of Life. See Daniel 10:21, 12:1, Rev 13:8 and Ps 139:16, among others.
To have a better understanding of these things and why God allows evil, it is essential to know that God created with a specific Plan. He created to rid creation of evil. But to do that, He had to initiate a process that takes time. And that process involved a fallen humanity. Not that God caused men to sin, but He subjected men to sin, so He could, through Christ, squash it. The unfortunate fact is that creation is susceptible to corruption and the only way to fix it is Christ.
The Bible tells us that the first one to be corrupted was an Angel (Isa14 and Eze28). His name was Lucifer. Then corruption was found in him. It should be noted that corruption is not something that happens overnight. It creeps in. When a piece of metal begins to rust, you might not even notice it. Corruption takes time. And just as Lucifer corrupted over time, Adam and Eve also corrupted over time. The Bible narrative in Genesis makes it seem as if once they ate the apple, they immediately became corrupt and sinful. But that is not realistic. A reading of Song of Solomon 2 paints a better picture of what happened in the Garden of Eden. In fact, Romans 8 tells us there were those alive at the time Adam and Eve lived, that did not commit the sin of Adam.
But God's Plan included Adam's fall, because had Adam not fallen into corruption, Christ would not have been part of the Plan. Unfortunately, Christ was necessary because corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Recall that the Plan came before the creation. Because the deterioration of the character and physical nature of Adam affected his genetic makeup, something we have a better understanding of today, his offspring (humanity) inherited his corrupt nature. Hence, we are all corrupt (Ps14:3).
So, sin is not entirely a matter of the will, but of a corrupt nature. PURPOSE DRIVEN CREATION
Also, your reference: " Romans 8 tells us there were those alive at the time Adam and Eve lived, that did not commit the sin of Adam." Apologies, I couldn't find any reference to this; maybe another Scripture.
c. "Christ was necessary because corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation". I agree that corruption (sin's results) is a consequence of creation, but I don't think it was an inevitable consequence. Creation was made perfect, & so only after the fall of man did sin have its consequence over creation. However, if you meant that God's Plan included Christ's coming because of the inevitable fall of man, then I agree with you.
Thank you Carlos, that was a good read.
a. "the Purpose for which God created, was to redeem us and all of creation from corruption". It is true, that the Omniscient God already knew that His Son's coming & Sacrifice was imperative for sinful mankind & thus His Plan from the beginning included Jesus, but I laboured over your point that the creation of mankind was for our redemption. From Scripture, I see that God created all things, including Adam & Eve, & saw that all was to His Pleasure & Satisfaction, & then rested on the seventh day ( Gen 2:2,3). I simply can't see that we were created so that we could be redeemed; rather, we were created so that we & our descendants, could enjoy a perfect relationship with the Godhead & enjoying a perfect world to live in. The fact that Adam/Eve sinned & that nature passed onto us, was what God had already planned for & Jesus was in that Plan. Jesus, God's Word, was in Heaven (indeed, instrumental in the creative work: Col 1:15,16) & had no reason to be ever sent to Earth. The status quo was God's Plan & it was Perfect & as such there would have not been any need for Jesus' Coming, nor of His Millennial Rule, nor of new Heavens & Earth. Of course, from our viewpoint, that is hard to imagine, but now in His Mercy, He sent Him to us sinners, His very Own to redeem us. I can see what you're saying, but just felt that you have understood this aspect of creation differently: i.e. we were not created for redemption but for His Pleasure. (see next comment).
Though much has already been said,
I'm going to make this brief,
There's a Biblical principle that sin is passed from the third and fourth generation, but, BUT, Jesus is our great equalizer! Because if you make Jesus your Lord and Savior, then no matter what your parents or grandparents have done, or even you have done in the past you can be set free, all you have do is say, "Lord, I am a sinner, please forgive me for all my sins, and wash me clean so I can stand clean before You. Be my Savior and my Lord, make me into the person You want me to be, take all of me, I am Yours, in Jesus' precious Name."
Now, start reading your Bible, starting with the Gospel of John, then Romans, (they're in the New Testament) and stay connected to Christian people like this group, and when churches start opening up, find one in your neighborhood and become a part of them, you let them minister to you for a while, then get involved..
I'll be praying for you
The purpose of creation from the very beginning, was Christ. God didn't create us so we could enjoy Him and have a wonderful world to live in, although we can enjoy that and are promised that as Believers. The fact is, the world is rotten and we are putrid.
People argue it is the fault of Free Will. But that is also a stretch. The Bible never says anything to that effect. We might have been created with the ability to choose, but our poor choices are the result of a corrupted nature. A perfect nature wouldn't sin. God didn't put Satan in the middle of the Garden to adorn it. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. The Angels rebelled. Men disobeyed. Eph4:22, Mk7:21, Rom1:21, Jer17:5.
A look at Scripture shows Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, death, to take away pain, suffering and establish eternal perfection (Dan9:24, 1Cor15:50). In Rom 8-10 we're told God placed us and all creation, to include Angels, in a corruptible creation, so He could fix the problem of corruption. See 1John3:8, Heb9:26, Eph1:11, 3:11. God's Will and Purpose cannot be thwarted.
Isa 46:10 - I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.' 48:7 - They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.' 46:11 -I declare the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.' I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it.
My point is God created with a Plan, a Purpose. He did not create knowing His creation was going to fail and He would have to rescue it. He created specifically to destroy so much as the potential for corruption ( Heb 2:14).
7. Rom 5:13-15. I understand these verses (in paraphrase) to read: (v 13) 'until the delivery of the Law, sin was already in the world, but sin is not chargeable when there is no law'. So, without a Law, sin, though evident, is not chargeable. True, the Mosaic Law was not given at that time, but the Law of God was still evident with Adam & Eve, directly from the Mouth of God. Whether they learned their lesson from this & somehow resisted any other sin is unknown, but sin took its root in them. (v 14) 'death passed on from Adam to Moses (until the written Law), & sin affected all even those who didn't sin in the way that Adam/Eve sinned, & Adam being a figure of the One Who was to come'. (v 15) 'because of Adam, death has come to all, by Jesus Christ (the last Adam), God's Gift of Grace has been made available to many'.
So, "God created with the knowledge and understanding corruption would materialize with creation. No creation, no corruption". I agree with this statement that God knew that corruption would result in His Creation, but I have argued against 'that God had planned for this to happen so that His Son could come to Earth to redeem sinners'. God knew that Jesus would one day have to lay down His Life, but Creation wasn't planned to that end, or else, why even bother to create? Why put your Son to such agony, even as a man, & grieve your Own Heart so bitterly, just to fulfil Your Plan to have Your Son die for us? I'll leave it here & wonder whether this part of the thread is worth pursuing, unless there is some specific clarification I need. Thank you again for your time & clarity in your expression.
4. "Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation". We dealt with this before as I believe it wasn't inevitable at creation, but was inevitable as a result of man's disobedience. I also read through Rom 8,10 & could find no reference to God "placing all of His creation, including Angels, in a corruptible creation, so he could fix the problem of corruption". I did find Rom 8:19,38 on angels, but this had nothing to do with your statement.
5. Isa 48:7. "they are created now & not from the beginning.." 'Created', from the Hebrew, 'ginetai' = done now. In other words, all those hidden things of God have now been brought to light. Don't want to dwell on this, as there's opportunity for dispute here.
6. The Genesis account. Eve no doubt contemplated & was attracted by the fruit. Satan's involvement added further fuel to her thoughts, but she initially resisted him. Her innocency was real till that point: once the fruit was taken & eaten, sin entered. I simply can't fathom an extended time of sin's maturation in Adam & Eve for sin to finally develop. In that case, maybe if they were smart, they could have sought forgiveness & thus avoided sin taking root & becoming sin. Two trees: Tree of the knowledge of Good & Evil and Tree of Life. Do you see personalities in these trees? I know that in Rev 22:2, the Tree of Life is present. (onto Page 5).
2. "The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose". Before offering comment, I do read your quoted references so that I get the fullest picture of what you are saying, though in my understanding of those Scriptures, I generally fail to apply the connection you intend. If the future is created by God for His Purposes, then is He instrumental in creating things that are not of His Character as well? If "No", then where does His purpose in creating the future stop & evil begin (within the scope of His 'planned' Knowledge, of course)? I simply can't grapple with such a concept, as a Holy God can't create the future & also create a sin situation so that His Purposes may be fulfilled. An illustration: A doctor goes on a walk & pushes over a ladder that has a man standing high above just so that he would fall & break some bones (i.e. planning the Future), so that he could practise some medical work on him (i.e. fulfilling that plan). One could wonder what sort of doctor, indeed human being, is he! I think you can see how perplexed I am with such a teaching.
3. "God didn't create us so we could enjoy Him and have a wonderful world to live in". And then you mention that the "world is rotten & we are putrid". We are talking about the intent of God to create a perfect world with perfect people so they might worship Him & enjoy Him. After the fall, of course, we indeed became putrid & the Purpose of God in Creation was thwarted (& yet, not without Him knowing all things, that this would happen). (onto Page 4).
1. Col 1:16": "..created for Christ". So after looking at the comments you make on this & indeed one of the central 'beliefs' you hold, 'is that creation's existence, is for the entrance of Christ into the world to accomplish God's Plan'. Then if I may ask: why should Christ need to come into the world in the first place? Christ didn't have any reason to come here, except for the fallen state of His created 'man'. You state, "What the Bible tells us is that all things were created FOR Christ to enter creation to accomplish God's Plan". Did God then create man so that Christ could come into the world to save him from sin's penalty? Then why not save Christ the trouble of coming by not creating man? But if it was His Plan to do so, then was He under compulsion to create man & his directive for him to sin, so that Christ could then come to save him, since He planned for Him to come? Does this then, make God a Supporter of evil so that His Plan could be accomplished? (I say this, trembling). Did Satan have no choice (or, maybe even prompted by God) to come & tempt man, & accomplish his purpose, so that Christ could come to save man? Then your comment would then make sense, "Corruption is an inevitable consequence of creation": God's creation was formed for the sole purpose of corruption so that His Christ could fulfil His Plan for removing that corruption. Where I have I misunderstood that understanding? And I beg your forgiveness, because what I've asked above is purely to try & understand concepts that I believe are strange to the meaning of Scripture; so I ask for more light on your beliefs. (onto Page 3).
Carlos, thanks for the time you've taken to deal with those points raised & apologies for taking time to respond. I should state, that my understanding of the Scriptures is not necessarily "what the modern Church has taught for the last few centuries", but from my own study of the Word & looking at cross references ensuring applicability. There are however, subjects that I would take the "modern Church" to task over which would only make this thread too ambiguous, if added here.
So, as I write, I do so from a careful consideration of the substance of the Scripture & using other Scriptures in support of it. You too have sent references, but as I studied them to see your point, I see that these references are based on & in the support of the assumptions you make & therefore they become strange to my reading as I see them in a different light & context. You mentioned the following: "All things have been created for Christ"; "The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose"; "we are not the object of creation. Christ is"; "Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation"; & "God created to eradicate corruption", are most of what I was able to glean. Since dealing with all this becomes a lengthy exercise, I will try to attend to them briefly. (onto page 2).
You say, "we were created [to] enjoy a perfect relationship with the Godhead & enjoying a perfect world to live in." And of course, that is what we are taught. That is our doctrine. But there is a greater truth we miss.
First of all, All things were created FOR Christ Col 1:16. What does that little tiny word mean? Did God create us for Us or FOR Christ? What does it mean that we were created for God's Pleasure? Is it so Christ could have someone to play with? Is it so Christ could have someone to help him with creation? Is it for the enjoyment of Christ? I bought a car for my son. I did that so he could go to school, work and out with his friends. Is that what FOR means here? What the Bible tells us is that all things were created FOR Christ to enter creation to accomplish God's Plan. In Heb 10:5 and Ps 40, we are told we were created so Christ could have a body in the image of God. In Titus 1:2, Paul says God's Plan from before creation, from before time even began, was a Plan of Redemption in Christ. All things are done FOR Christ to overcome corruption, evil, death, pain, suffering.
Secondly, Christ didn't enter the world in response to what Adam and Eve did. In the OT we read over and over, "I raised him up for my Purpose." Daniel says things to come are written in the Book of Truth. Revelation calls it the Book of Life. In Isaiah 44-48 God says He knows what is going to happen because He creates it then and there. The idea that God knows the future out of intuition, perception, vision or all-knowingness, because He is not restricted by time/space, is not Biblical. The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose.
Thirdly, we are not the object of creation. Christ is. If we were, God failed. Think about that. See Dan 9:24, Rom 8.
The Genesis story of the Garden is not complete. It is simplistic to believe Eve ate a fruit and she was instantly poisoned. There is more to the story. See Songs 2. She sat by the shade of the Tree. She contemplated its fruit. She was attracted to its glitter. And so was Adam. They were created in innocence. They were coaxed to become involved with the devil. God told them He did not want them to have anything to do with that Tree. By the way, what kind of tree was it? Were there any others like it? Or was it one of a kind? What does the Bible say? There were two Trees in the Garden. WHO were they? One bite and Eve became instantly aware of the difference between good and evil? Back to Paul, evil company...
Sorry, the quote on those that didn't sin same as Adam is found in Rom5:13-15. I hope I am doing this reading justice. What does it mean?
Your point c. God created to eradicate corruption. That's clear from Dan9:24 and others. If God created with a Plan and a Purpose, then sin was a consequence of creation. God created with the knowledge and understanding corruption would materialize with creation. No creation, no corruption.
What is it about the Sabbath that means so much?
The original discussion post was NOT "Confused", though, that one caught my eye, because nothing in this world is more important than making sure their right with the Lord, because we as believers, already know, 'God is NOT the author of confusion but of peace' 1 Cor 13:33... but the original text was from Patricia
[I think we all .Is the boat when it comes to the bible. Instead of bickering back and to, accept by faith that every word is true. Nothing in this world matters but the fact that our almighty GOD sent his only begotten SON into this world to die for sinners of which everyone is, because in Genesis when Adam disobeyed GOD it made all sinners. There is still sinners so as GOD'S people we should be.]
Though true, not sure what that had to do with Genesis 10
As for whether it's a salvation issue, or a theological issue the bottom line for me is this: 1) Genesis 10 talks about the generations, (genealogy) of the sons of Noah not only as God's Written Word, but a historical document one can trust. 2) A reference guide.
Though I appreciate reading from those much more knowledgeable then I, I believe, this is the original meaning of this text, nothing hidden, it's just like it says.
In 2Peter3:16 we are warned to be attentive, because some usurp Scripture to their destruction. Paul in 1Cor11:16 also cautions us of excesses. But there are those that have created insulated cultures based on strict enforcement of unnecessary rules and conditions. Sometimes we refer to these as cults, but they are also found among denominations. They emphasize duties, that when violated, lead to losing salvation. Sabbath, Tithing, dress, works, adherence to OT restrictions, attending services 5 times a week. The list is endless. Pay attention to Gal2-4, 2:15-3:5, 3:28, 4:8-10. Shouldn't we live by our trust in Christ, instead of our list of do's and don'ts?
That is not to say we shouldn't be organized and observe good conduct. But not as a basis for salvation.
Did Noah only have 3 kids in the 950 years he lived?
Why did God spare Noah and his family, considering they were as corrupt as everyone else?
Why not just start creation all over again, in a setting that wasn't as conducive to sin, rebellion, disobedience and corruption?
We covered some of this in our previous discussions, but more is better.
Isaiah 14:24, 26-27 - The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand. This the plan devised for the whole earth, and this is the hand stretched out over all the nations. The LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who can thwart Him? His hand is outstretched, so who can turn it back?
Ephesians 1:4-5 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.
Isaiah 46:9-11 - Remember what happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. I distinguish the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come, saying: 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.' I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it.
Isaiah 48:3 - I foretold the former things long ago; they came out of My mouth and I proclaimed them.
Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.
Acts 4:28 - They carried out what Your hand and purpose had decided beforehand would happen.
Daniel 4:35 - All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?'"
The confidence we have is that God is trustworthy. He is not fickle. If God says we will be eternally perfect, we will be. If God had created Adam and Eve perfect, they would have been. And neither they, nor the devil would have rebelled against God.
Can a perfect God fail? Is it possible for perfection to decay? If it was God's intent to make man perfect, why didn't He give man perfect wisdom and common sense? Can a perfect being be deceived? Can a perfect God be deceived? Were the Angels created perfect? Was the universe created perfect? Do perfect things corrupt?
My conclusion, based on verses previously noted, is that God did not create a perfect world. He created an existence perfectly suited for His Purpose in Christ, who created everything that exists so He could enter His creation to make it perfect. Man was not perfect, because he could die. Were that not the case, the Tree of Life would have been meaningless. He was not perfect because he could fail. He wasn't perfect because God created him so Christ could enter creation and die. If men could not die, the Plan to have Christ born to die would have been a contradiction. Man had to die, so Jesus could die. Remember, the Plan for Christ to redeem mankind and all creation, through death, was completed before the Fall. Recall the story of Jacob and Esau.
Death is the result of corruption. Whether Adam corrupted instantly or over time, is inconsecuential. Wether the devil corrupted instantly is also inconsequential. The fact is that they were capable of being corrupted. That makes them not perfect. In the perfect world to come, there will be no decay. All things will last forever incorruptible.
The Future as an observable entity one can observe or even travel into is a logical contradiction and practical impossibility. If there were such a thing as a Future God could be aware of, outside of Himself, then God would be subject to whatever is set in that Future. That is, if God is aware of events outside of Himself, that will take place, then He is bound by that knowledge and can't act to change what He knows to be true. God would therefore, not be free. The Future would determine what He does, given that what He knows about what will happen as fact, must happen. Let me explain. If God knows, through intuition, knowledge, vision, prescience or because He is all-knowing, then what He knows to be the fact, must in fact happen. Otherwise, He would be wrong about what He understood or the Future would not be certain.
If the Future God knows is not certain, then what God knows, is questionable. But if what He knows about the Future is in fact true, then God is locked into behaving as the Future reveals and incapable of changing it. Example: Jesus knows the Temple will be torn down at a specific time in the future. If the Temple is not torn down at that time, then Jesus was wrong about what He knew about future events. In other words, what Jesus knows about the future, has to take place. Otherwise, He doesn't know the future.
Therefore, we have to conclude that if God tells us something that will happen, it is not because He has some insight into the future. It has to be because He specifically planned and set it up that way. God cannot be a prisoner of the future. He has to be logically able to act freely.
Again the answer is, 'somewhat'. The Bible says Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, death, evil and corruption. The Bible also says that was God's Plan before time even began ( Titus 1:2). If God planned the eradication of corruption (sin, evil, death, decay, pain, suffering), before any of it existed, then God created, in part to remove corruption from created things.
If we can apply Daniel 9:24 to Christ, we can conclude that Christ came to get rid of corruption and establish eternal perfection. Throughout Scripture we see that God's purpose is to put an end to corruption (wickedness, evil). The hope of the Christian is that we will live in eternal incorruptibility ( 1 Cor 15:53).
So, to accomplish His purpose of a perfect existence, God had to create the imperfect creation that exists. God not only understood, in His wisdom and infinite knowledge, that corruption would affect creation, He planned for it. I repeat my previous assertion that, corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Were that not true, God would not have created an existence susceptible to corruption. Why would He? Consequently, He had to create the existence He created and make arrangements to make it perfect. To achieve perfection, all we have experienced had to happen.
It was because of that, that God ceased His creative work on the 7th Day. God stopped creating, because He created with a Purpose. There isn't anything in the Bible that even suggests God created mankind for mankind's own sake. The only thing I see we are left with, is that God created for Christ to put an end to corruption in creation. As we can see from Hebrews 3-4, we are still in the 7th Day of God's rest. That's to say, God did not resume creating things the morning after the 7th Day. And God won't resume creating until Christ returns.
My response is No. Keep in mind the Angels also sinned. Why didn't God save the Angels? Why create man so Christ could enter creation to save men? For whatever reason, Christ created man and entered the world as a man, to vanquish the devil ( Heb 2:14). Wasn't there a better way? Obviously not.
Consequently, because God created an existence susceptible to corruption ( Rom 8), we have to conclude that He created it that way because it was an absolute necessity. It could not have been done any other way. So God could have created a different existence, if and only if it were not necessary to create it as He did. 1 Peter 1:11, "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?" Peter tells us that even the Angels wait anxiously for our redemption, because their salvation depends on our salvation.
The Bible is clear. Christ didn't just come to save mankind from its sin. He came to redeem all of creation from its corruption. It so happens, God had to do that, of necessity, through the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ. See Heb 2:10-17, 1 Cor 2:7.
Rom 8:19-22, "The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time."
God did not cause anyone to sin or corrupt. For whatever reason unknown to us, corruption is present in creation. To achieve eternal perfection in things created, God Planned Christ ( Rev 21:4, Acts 13:37). Why things deteriorate is a mystery of the physical laws of the material universe and the angelic realm.
If Christ was not the purpose of creation and all things were not created for His incarnation, death and resurrection, as stated in Col 1:16, Rom 11:36 and Heb 10:5, what was the purpose of creation? The entire Bible is dedicated to Christ and 2Tim 1:9 tells us it was "by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal."
I would argue that if the Plan of Salvation was drawn up before the Fall, in fact, before time/space, then creation had to have been for and about Christ. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, to vanquish death, to redeem His creation and to establish eternal perfection.
So, if God knew man would fail, before He even created man, why did He create man and why send Christ to redeem him? Why not just create people that would not sin? After all, isn't that what we are promised in Heaven? Isn't the promise, abundant life for all eternity, where neither sin nor moth corrupt? Why did God subject all of creation to all this trouble ( Rom 8) just to get to perfection and a sinless eternity?
The argument is, man has free will and s/he can't have free will unless they have the ability or possibility to rebel, disobey, sin. But if that is the case, will we have free will in Heaven? And if we do, will anyone rebel? And if we have free will, why do we pray, Your Will Be Done? Why would God create a being with free will, then ask him to relinquish it? Why not create a being like those that will exist in eternity?
The fact is all creation was subjected to suffering, because it was necessary ( Rom 8). Just as necessary will be the release of Satan after his 1,000 incarceration ( Rev 20:7). Why? All things are for Christ ( Col 1:16).
A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48
B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36
C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16
D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24
E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2
To A: I don't think anyone can argue that Christ was not in the initial Plan of creation, given Jesus created all things. Titus 1:2 and 2 Tim 1:9 are unequivocal. The Plan of Redemption was drawn up before anything was created. We can legitimately conclude from that, that the coming of Christ in a human body ( Heb 10:5), was intentional. Redemption was not offered in reaction to the Fall. Jesus prayed to the Father to, "glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed". 1 John 5:20, John 1:18.
If all things were created for the sake of Jesus ( Col 1:16), doesn't it seem obvious that Jesus was part of the Plan of Creation? There is no indication in Scripture that Jesus was an afterthought? In these verses, we are told that Christ's incarnation was in the original blueprints, before mankind was created. Acts 2:23 Eph 1:4.
What did Jesus mean when He stated in John 8:58, "Before Abraham existed, I Am"? Keep in mind that it is Jesus speaking. Was He simply saying He is God? Or was He saying He as Savior existed before creation? That is, Christ existed. Not Jehovah existed. Christ existed and He is God. John 1 attests to that. In John 17:24 Jesus says God loved Him before creation. Loved who? God loved God? No. God loved Jesus, the Savior.
Rev 13:8, 17:8 also reveal that prior to the Fall, the names of the saved were written in the Book of Life. What's up with that? Jesus came before the Fall.
That said, you have correctly outlined my points in page 1. They are, as you summarized:
1. All things have been created for Christ
2. The Future does not exist
3. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose
4. We are not the object of creation, Christ is
5. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation
6. God created to eradicate corruption
In Page 2 you ask and I cite some Scriptures:
A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48
B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36
C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16
D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24
E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2
In Ephesians 3:10-11 Paul opens a window so we can get a glimpse of why God created mankind. It was to make the Wisdom of God known to "the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms". That is a lot to absorb. And how was that Purpose accomplished? Through Christ. In 1Cor 4:9, 15:50f, 1Pet 1:12 we see that our human existence is only part of what comprises the Mystery of God's Purpose, which includes more than just us. Nevertheless, everything hinges on humanity. So, for the Purpose of God concerning all of creation, Christ came into the world. There is a war raging in the spiritual realm, we know nothing about.
I'll try to address your questions A-E in the next post. They are complex and not easy to answer. But I will try. What I want everyone to keep in mind is, as Rom 11:36 says, all things were created 'from him and through him and for him are all things'.
The Genesis account of the Garden is clearly allegorical. And the Tree of the knowledge...is no exception. Knowledge is absorbed through time and experience. When Paul says that evil company corrupts good morals, do you think he means that as soon as you enter the presence of an evil person, you become instantly corrupt? Corruption, by definition, is a deterioration of something good. It involves a decomposition, breakdown, deterioration, a weakening disintegration of something whole. Fruit putrefy because they begin to decompose. Animals die because their systems begin to break down and weaken. Taking my lead from Songs 2-5, which mirror events in the Garden of Eden, I see a slow progression from innocence to craftiness. It wasn't just one bite of a non-existent fruit that corrupted them. It was the constant association with what God told them to stay away from.
Was there a fruit for the Tree of Life? What did it mean to eat from the Tree of Life? What does it mean now? Will we become instantly perfect when we eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life? Rev 22:2 tells us the Tree of Life yields 12 different kinds of fruit. Are these fruit physical and eatable? Clearly not. Is there a correlation between the two Trees in the Garden? Can one be metaphorical, but not the other? If one symbolizes Christ, is the other literal?
Christ was tempted by the devil 40 days. He wasn't confronted just once with 3 temptations. These temptations were spread over the course of Christ's time in the desert. My point is that Adam and Eve were coaxed over time, because their character deteriorated.
And as I'm about to send this off, I see another comment from you, re: the two trees. And now I focus on: "The Genesis account of the Garden is clearly allegorical." Taking a deep breath & staying focussed, I believe that I can now in truth, understand how you are perceiving Scripture. To say that the Garden of Eden & subsequent events were an allegory, leaves a great chasm between us that can never diminish. If that Garden was an allegory, what about when Jesus was led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil? One could allegorize this as well quite easily. Therefore, I feel that I now have a handle on your thoughts about all we discussed, and that is, we are basically viewing the Scriptures in quite different ways. Again, thank you for your time Carlos, & I will attend to other points that you might raise, but of course with a better understanding of your perceptions.
But where my problem lies, is from one of our earlier discussions on: 'God's whole plan for Creation was to have Christ come into His Creation as a Man, to redeem man from his corruption' (or words to that effect). To me, that sounds like God's creation of man was unnecessary except to be the 'vehicle' for Christ's physical embodiment to lay down His Life. I disputed that, even to this time I find no need for God to even create man, if it was only for Christ's Sacrificial purposes. Why create man in the first place, I think was my original question? I believe you referred to God's Planning in your answer: that it was in God's original design that man would be born into corruption, hence the Plan for Christ's appearance. It is this issue that I stumbled on (as well as God's Planning vs His Foreknowledge).
Again, I agree that Christ's coming was in God's original Design to rescue fallen man, but to just create man for no other reason except for Christ's humanity, I find my mind unable to grasp such a thought. And at that time, we had discussed the purposes of man's creation. I had said that it was for God's Pleasure (He saw that ALL of His Creation was good/very good) & that His creation (man) had the privilege of living amongst all of God's Creation & enjoying a pure & holy relationship with his Maker: even as His other Creation (angels) are now enjoying. Another answer to this question, I don't have, as I'm not privy to it, but to believe man's creation was just for the entrance of Christ, is strange. To all this you did disagree, & I accept that since it is not specified as such, just my supposition from the tenor of relevant Scripture.
Carlos, your comment (May 13th) is not posted in this section even though I'm directed to it. So I'll respond anyway, reading if off my email.
I do agree with you on all of your points, i.e. Christ was given a body as man's; all the relevant Scriptures point to this event (Abel's offering & Abraham's offering of Isaac, & many others that signify the need for Christ to ultimately make payment for sins, for which animal sacrifices could not). I agree as well to, "is it fair to conclude that both the Shadow and the object that casts that Shadow, Christ, were for Christ to enter the world as the True Sacrificial Lamb?" Yes, this is the correct conclusion.
You quote Isa 40:3. I wish I could find my reference to that as it's not in the referenced thread. I think some of my pages sent to you & probably others from you have been clipped. I had sent four pages recently, but only one (the fourth page: the two trees) appears. I just don't recall using Isa 40:3 at this juncture. So, in truth, you have expressed yourself very clearly & I've had no difficulty in understanding your points & I find myself in complete agreement with them in your post. (onto page 2)
You said: "I repeat my previous assertion that, corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Were that not true, God would not have created an existence susceptible to corruption." So the other aspect I see here (in a similar thought to 'Planning' & 'Foreknowledge'), is that you are possibly viewing God's Plans from the end & working backwards; so working backwards: God's Plan was to have a perfect restoration of all things since creation would undoubtedly be corrupted (i.e. the end of the Plan), but to get there, Satan had to be locked away for good, Christ had to come for sin, corruption of man & His other creation had to happen, Satan had to come into the picture, & therefore, God had to make a creation susceptible to that end (the beginning of the Plan). I realize you may not see it this way, indeed I may be quite wrong, but it's the only way I can make sense of your views.
My view (with the Foreknowledge of God) works from the beginning: Creation of all things is perfect, Satan entered, man sinned, corruption of man & creation occurred, Christ had to come, Satan would be locked away, & God's Plan for a perfect restoration of all things realized. Anyway, as I said, this type of view (of Planning or Foreknowledge) does help me understand. (onto Page 4)
The word that I find is better suited is 'Foreknew'. Using the same scenarios of a world created perfect but would ultimately be corrupted, that man would fall into sin of his own choosing, that Satan would undoubtedly tempt him to do so, etc., are what I see as God's Foreknowledge, rather than His Planning. Even after studying your detailed explanation on these matters, I cannot fathom a Holy God planning to engineer certain things (which would necessarily include sin) from Creation to the full restoration of all things in the future, so that His Plans & Purposes would be realized. I rather see that He foreknew all things, that even in Creation, he knew man would corrupt himself, that Satan would not be far away, that the sacrificial system given to Israel was only temporary & a shadow of the True, that Christ must needs come to deal with the sin issue, that Satan would be finally be locked away & full restoration of all things be accomplished. Now how this 'foreknowledge' of God relates to His 'Planning' to accomplish all things, maybe a 'fine line' of interpretation. But I see that God's Foreknowledge determined His Plan to accomplish His Purposes, & that nothing would take Him by surprise, for He already knew all about all events. I agree, that He knew beforehand that His perfect Creation would one day succumb to corruption, but I see that He also continued on with creating, knowing that through man's knowledge of his sinfulness & need of a Saviour (which man couldn't provide), that the love the man lost because of sin & separation to God, would now be restored in full measure in the knowledge of God's Love for him in Jesus. (onto Page 3).
Carlos, I had replied to the first page you posted in your lengthy response to me, but I don't see it anywhere, so I'm going to try & deal with the crux of these matters, though appreciating the time you've taken in your detailed response. As well, I'm now inundated with your further postings, finding myself quite buried & gasping for air. I have looked at all of them, but I don't think I have the capacity & fortitude to deal with each matter. So with apologies for dealing so briefly as opposed to the time you've kindly expended to me, I write the following:
The two key words used here is 'Planned' & 'Foreknew'. You have used the word 'Planned' often & I think that I'm not seeing the meaning in your way. Planning, for me, is when (in human terms), one sits down & sets a Plan on paper which brings in all manner of aspects for consideration, including possibilities for the proposed Plan to go one way or the other, hurdles, time lines, etc. When I apply it to God planning for certain things to happen (e.g. creation of man so that Christ could come to save him; planning the future so that certain things could happen & God Himself would be subject to it, etc.), I think of just that: God has laid out a Plan for events, good & bad, to happen & so His Purposes are fulfilled. That man was created into corruption, so Christ could enter that world of corruption to rid man & the world of it, was His Plan, causes me to gasp at such a thought. (onto Page 2)
Romans 8:19-23 - The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
1 Peter 1:10-12 - which things the angels desire to look into.
You are right. While the passage mentions that creation was subjected to futility, it does not mention Angels. I must have assumed it did. I was wrong. Thank you for pointing that out. What I think the passage does mention is God's Plan to eradicate corruption, when it says, "in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay". What I thought the passage said about the Angels is found in 1 Peter, but I was wrong about that too and I am glad you corrected me. The Bible does not say Angels will benefit from God's Plan of Redemption.
My argument, however, is that God's eternal Plan was for the annihilation of corruption, which includes death and evil. Isaiah 25:8 - He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
I suppose my thinking was that because Angels were also created and were subject to corruption, the Plan included them. But that was a stretch. As you pointed out, there is no mention of that at all.
A. I don't have a problem of maintaining that Christ was already in God's Plan in Creation, as God, being God, already knows the future & His Plans for it. It's the other postulations that concern me.
B. Heb 10:5, speaks of the temporary, deficient & incompleteness of the sacrificial system & that only God's offering would accomplish God's Purposes. It does not speak of man being created to open the way for Christ to come & be his Sacrifice. And with Gal 3:16 & Rom 11:36, I can't see any connection.
C. Heb 2 & Gal 3:16: sorry, I can't see in these references anything about God having to create man so as to then send His Son for man's sake.
D. Rom 9:22-24. This shows that God was 'long suffering' towards 'sinners' awaiting the time He would show His great Mercy towards them. I don't see in this that God supported evil (i.e. he partook of or gave His assent to evil, so as to accomplish His Purposes).
E. Job 1:12. God allowed Satan to test Job's faithfulness & conviction, not in bringing Satan to test Job.
Mt 4:1; Lk 4:2. Ditto. Again, Satan approached Jesus, not brought to Him by God.
Eph 3:10, 11. The theme of this begins in verse 3. It was about the "mystery of Christ". And what was it? In verse 6, "That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs (with the Jews), and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the Gospel." "And this mystery would be made known to all men (v 9) & to all the heavenly host (v 10), as well as from the Church's existence & testimony of this mystery, of God's manifold Wisdom". I've added words here, only for clarity, as in the original the intent is unclear. Of course, with any addition, comes another interpretation, so I leave this open.
1. God prepared a body for Christ
2. And He prepared that human body before creation ( 2 Tim 1:9)
3. And God created mankind in His image
4. Then, can we conclude God created man so Christ could have a human body in His image?
Or was it accidental? God either created man in His image on purpose and with a purpose, or the body for Christ was a convenient accident. Wasn't the Law, to include sacrifices, set up by God as a Shadow of what was to come? If the Law was a Shadow, what was it a Shadow of? For there to be a Shadow, there has to be a real object that casts that Shadow. And which comes first, the shadow or the object that casts that Shadow? Col 2:17. And if a Shadow, when was that Shadow cast? When God used an animal to clothe Adam and Eve? When Abel offered a better sacrifice than Cain? Or when Abraham offered his son on the altar?
We see from these Scriptures, I hope, the Shadow of Christ's Sacrifice was cast prior to anything being created. Heb 8:5. Consequently, is it fair to conclude that both the Shadow and the object that casts that Shadow, Christ, were for Christ to enter the world as the True Sacrificial Lamb? Col 2:17, Isa 49:6, 51:5.
Isaiah 40:3 sounds the call to prepare the way for the Lord. You said, "It does not speak of man being created to open the way for Christ to come & be his Sacrifice." But if the call is not to man, who is the call to? Who was to come? A man. Why did God make man in His image? Because an animal could not meet the needs only the Man Christ could satisfy.
And when did Christ start casting the Shadow? He started casting the Shadow back to the beginning of time, from the 1st Century Cross, to before creation. John 8:58. Which came 1st, Man, Shadow or Christ?
Before God created anything, He Planned His creation
Christ, as Savior, was included in that Plan
The Plan also included Redemption
The eradication of Wickedness (corruption)
Vanquishing Death
Establishing Eternal Perfection
Creation of Mankind
A Material creation as a parenthesis in eternity, With a beginning and an end
At some point in time or before time Lucifer and other Angels rebelled
The devil was banished to the Garden of Eden
Man was created and placed in the Garden
God Planted 2 Trees in the Garden before the Fall
The devil tempted Adam and Eve
They sinned and all mankind was imputed with the penalty
Does the Bible say God knew Adam would to disobey Him? No. It implies He was not aware Gen 3:11
If God did know, why didn't He stop them? God had a Plan called His "Eternal Purpose" Eph 1:4-11, 3:11, Isa 46:10-11
Why did God create man, knowing man would disobey? For Christ Col 1:16, Rom 11:36
Why did God get rid of everyone but Noah? His Promise and Covenant Gen 3:15
Why did God create man in His image? To prepare a body for Christ. Ps 40:6, Heb 10:5
Why did God Plant the Tree of Life in the Garden, before the Fall? We don't know Gen 3:22, 24
Who is the Tree of Life? Jesus? Rev 22:2
Who is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? The devil Eze 31, Matt 12:33-34
Were Adam and Eve given a choice on whether to eat from the Tree of KGE or others? No. Gen 3
Why did God include Christ in His Pre-creation Plan? To rescue all things created from perdition Eph 1:10, Col 1:20
What was God's pre-creation Purpose? To reconcile all things in heaven and earth to Himself Col 1:13-20, Eph 1:10
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