"MARY" in Bible Discussions

 
  • Zamar2Zion on Revelation 4 - 11 hours ago
    Book of Revelation is in three parts (past, past/present, future)

    Revelation 1:19 ''write down the things which thou hast seen(past Rev 1:1-18), the things which are (past/present Chapters 2,3 letters to the churches in Johns time and for us today to know) and the things that shall be hereafter' (Future Rev 4:1 - Rev 19:11-21;Chapter 20,21,22)

    Rev 4:1 (start of tribulation) - Rev 11:3;11:7/ Rev 13:5; Rev 13:7 (middle) - Rev 19:11-21 (end of Trib)

    Matthew 24:3-14 tells us signs of the end before Tribulation.

    End: From a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid) -- + continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost. a. termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be, (in the Greek writings always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time

    Matthew 24:15-16 is speaking to those in judea near the end of Tribulation. Mark 13:14



    Matthew 24:15 When ye (who read this during trib) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

    Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" (THOSE IN JUDAEA DURING TRIBULATION)

    Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains (mountains of Moab, Southern Jordan)
  • Richard H Priday - In Reply - 4 days ago
    Concluding thoughts

    Look at earlier postings about ideas related to genetic DNA manipulation to render someone not human and therefore unredeemable. This would explain the wholesale destruction of all men except for Noah and his immediate family who was said to be "perfect" in his generations. ( Gen. 6:9). This would almost certainly have a primary reference to his genetic line not being contaminated with the sons of the giants or "men of renown" mentioned in Genesis 6:4. Christ came to redeem men not hybrid creatures and naturally angels that fell would also be unredeemable. Whether this business would be sold as an "evolutionary leap" or promise immortality or both is uncertain; but the "strong delusion" ultimately is sent by God; therefore men will worship the Beast and of course Satan who empowers him. The idea of rebellion comes to mind with what Cain did; and the original concept of the tower of Babel will come to its fruition "bringing the whole world together" in unity; so to speak.

    The Tribulation likely begins with one man controlling all of the earth's wealth. That is seen in prophecies in Daniel 11:38 and prophecies such as him "dividing the land for gain" ( Daniel 11:39). See also Habukkuk 2:9 and the whole chapter there to see the consolidation of wealth. Despite his control of the 10 nation beast empire; we see in Revelation that the nations from the east and north amass to go after him. (sixth trumpet starting Revelation 9:13.) Therefore, he may have control over everyone economically but nations will still fight him. By Armageddon in Meddigo at least it appears all are damned after they are enticed to gather by the 3 demons from the frog like spirits coming from the "unholy" trinity. After fighting each other they turn and fight Christ which of course is futile. THose in the Ezekiel 38 campaign however have one sixth remain; I am guessing some don't have the mark and make it into the Millennium. I may discuss that later.
  • Bennymkje - 1 week ago
    Mark 3:19-27 "Besides himself"

    Jesus formally chose the twelve "And they went into an house." Here we a curious passage,"And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread./And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself."(vv.20-21).

    Fame of the new prophet we read earlier in the Gospel of Mark was no different than of John the Baptist. "And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee."(1:28) Jesus having seen the masses who were as sheep without a shepherd.(Matt.9:36) began to preach of the gospel while his cousin before him aroused much speculation and curiosity. "Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan." to hear his message.(Matt.3:5) " And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?"( John 1:19). His testimony was received and they saw him as well. "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Here we have an unvarnished look at fame or celebrity status. The ear hears so much as eye sees so often yet Jesus was an unknown quantity to his friends. "He is possessed!" summed up their report. The Spirit gives us the instance of his mother, "But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart."( Luke 2:19).

    Hearing without faith is a dumb thing to do and it is how Jesus became so many things to so many. She heard with her ear of faith and digested over it. What many have witnessed or heard are good seed sown into the heard but it poves to be no man's land."When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side."(Matt.13:19). Is it strange to hear that some believers do not believe in trinity?
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 1 week ago
    GiGi,

    Part 3 Trinity discussion,

    Do you believe the Son is a created being?

    What is the meaning of created? Does it mean something that is made out of nothing? I would have to say no, Jesus is the Son of God who was conceived in the womb of Mary, Matthew 1:20 Luke 1:35, I do not think I would say He was created.

    If so, when did He come into existence?

    In God's plan before anything and physically when He was conceived in Mary's womb.

    Do you believe that the Son is only human in nature?

    Jesus is the Son of God fully human but without sin same as the first Adam, Scripture is clear when Jesus was baptized, He was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit without measure, John 3:34. All the works of Jesus were done by the Spirit of God, Matthew 4:16 Matthew 12:28 Acts 10:38.

    Do you believe that Jesus became "the Christ" during His lifetime (Adoptionism)?

    I had never heard of Adoptionism until now, I had to look it up, it's false. Christ and Messiah are the same; Jesus was anointed by the Spirit of God after He was baptized by John, He then was made the Messiah/Christ fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 9:25. Jesus is the Son of God conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Ghost/Spirit.

    Do you believe Jesus ever aquired a divine nature in His earthly life?

    If you mean a divine nature is to have all the attributes that make God who He is I would have to say no. If so, Jesus could not sin or be tempted, Matthew 4:1 Hebrews 4:15. If so, Jesus living a perfect life without sin is meaningless. Jesus could not have died; Jesus was given the power of the Holy Spirit when He was anointed the Messiah. After He rose from the dead God gave Jesus all power in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:18. God raised and placed Jesus on His right side, Ephesians 1:21-23. Jesus did not return to where He was before, God the Father placed everything under Jesus God's only begotten Son's feet and Jesus will reign until the last enemy is destroyed, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

    See part 4.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 1 week ago
    GiGi,

    Part 2 Trinity discussion

    Did Jesus exist before creation? Did the Holy Spirit exist before creation?

    Jesus existed in God's plan, Jesus is the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and by Him were all things created Col. 1:16 my understanding is Jesus, was the first in God's plan of creation and everything was created by God, in and through the plan and purpose of Jesus. My understanding Jesus did not physically exist until the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 He was born of Mary the Son of God. the seed of woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20

    My understanding is the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not a person, Genesis 1:2. We see all the greetings are from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:7 1 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 1:2 Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 1:2 Ephesians 6:23 Philippians 1:2 Colossians 1:2 and 6 more. The Holy Spirit not being included is a good clue the Holy Spirit was not considered a person by Paul and others at that time.

    If so, who were they in relation to the Father?

    I believe the above answers this.

    How did the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all create all that is, seen or unseen?

    My understanding is God the Father created all, Genesis 1:1 Genesis 1:31 Proverbs 16:4 Isaiah 45:18 Nehemiah 9:6.

    Does Scripture teach that God is only one person who manifests in three forms, but all these manifestations are only one person?

    Scripture does not support Modalism I have never considered this and do not know anything about it.

    See part 3.
  • Richard H Priday - 1 week ago
    Whole counsel of God: Church membership.

    Here is an issue that can leave us at times with more questions than answers. I may have stated in a past post about a friend of mine in a former church who gladly cleans bathrooms and does other "servile" actions. The definition of that word is interesting because it both encompasses someone who is exuberant about serving others as well as someone often looked down as a low class member of society. Food for thought...

    At any event; this friend of mine along with a sizeable group in my current church more than meet the commitment of those who are considered "members" (in fact they seem to exceed them in many ways). In general their explanation of not being a member when I have inquired is that they feel no need to make a formal commitment to something that is a man made sort of concept. Here are a few summary bullet points.

    WHY WE SHOULD BE A CHURCH MEMBER

    WE MAKE A FORMAL DECLARATION AND ARE HELD TO THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF OUR COMMITMENTS TO SERVICE; PRAYER; SCRIPTURE READING; EVANGELISM AND WHATEVER ELSE IS IN A DENOMINATIONAL "STATEMENT OF FAITH"

    WE ARE IN MANY CASES GIVEN ACCESS TO COMMINION AS WELL AS DECISIONS IN CONGREGATIONAL MEETINGS ON FINANCES AND VOTES FOR NEW LEADERSHIP

    Now I am going to go through a couple reasons that we should be cautious about becoming a member. Most pressing in my situation is something I was concerned about before I was made a member; that is those who are taking communion unworthily (either in adultery or fornication in particular). I won't go into the subject again as to how I view remarriage when a spouse is still alive as being adultery. In general though if we are a church member we have a responsibility to hold leadership as well as other laypersons accountable which is often uncomfortable. Clearly we should expect our own conduct to be examined carefully as well; exhortation is said to be a spiritual gift but we rarely see it these days.
  • Bennymkje - In Reply - 1 week ago
    Hi Ronald

    " Genesis 1:26 many apply the Trinity to this verse but then we must ignore verse 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. This could also easily be first-person plural." No it is not. "

    I, God changeth not"(Mal.3:6) Neither does He give his glory to another. Ge.1: 27 says " So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Ge. 1 refers to the MOU or the everlasting covenant between God the Father and God the Son. Thus the Will of God in v.26 and the Son completes it. "It was so" at the end of each day is as though the Son in agreement.(v.7)

    The v.28 God blesses them (man). The covenant is between God and Man. In primary sense it is man say Adam. In secondary sense it is set down by the Holy Ghost in terms of God as Being as well as in terms Christ and the Church.

    As Being what is God? He is one. ("Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"-De.6:4) Jesus Christ as the visible image of the invisible God is both glory as well as body in Trinity. The Father Son and Holy Spirit are not considered separate entities but manifestations of the same Being. The Son of man expresses the Word become flesh. Similarly the Word was God. The same Spirit but expressed as separate. Jesus did not require baptism by water but in obedience to the Word and in human likeness he undertook so in all things he was as human as you and me.

    When we say that the scriptures must be fulfilled Jesus in his humanity met the criteria. The third office in Trinity serves by bringing events, persons connect according to the divine Will. He therefore brought Evangelist Philip to meet the Ethiopian. The entire scripture is organized on a reconstituted time.
  • Bennymkje - 2 weeks ago
    Matt.27:57-60 "The rock hewn tomb"

    "He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered." Joseph would have no need to seek permission to be buried in his own tomb. He walked an extra mile to revere the body of of his master. He was a believer with firm conviction. His action was similar to Mary who anointed the body of Jesus in preparation for burial.

    The Spirit has in so many ways and in several instances what anyone did good because the word bore fruit in them. 'This seed in itself' (Ge.1:11) in the process brings the glory that Moses sought to the pit from which all saints in light owe, to use a mathematical term, their locus for their everlasting life.

    "Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek theLord: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged."(Is.51:1). Isaiah refers the natural man, who is earthy to have been dug up from a hole; on the hand whoever is created new in his Son is said to be hewn from the rock.

    "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground:(Ge.1:7) Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. So their locus is entirely different. Dust to dust and ashes to ashes is their testament. For those who are buried with Jesus in faith and abides with him the pit carries yet another inscription on their headstone:"And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."( Job 19:26).

    59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,

    60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 weeks ago
    Amen, Mary!
  • Richard H Priday - 2 weeks ago
    Essential doctrines

    To know Christ and to make Him known is the theme of the Navigators ministry and correlates with 1 John and other passages.

    This is a good summary of understanding the personal meaning of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for atonement as well as our duties fulfilling our part in the Great Commission.

    I imagine most here know the necessary doctrines of believing Christ is a member of the Godhead and thus Divinity Himself who was the only one who could atone for sins (as the sinless spotless Lamb of God) by becoming a man as we are without sin and remaining so throughout His earthly ministry; then dying on the cross and resurrecting from the dead 3 days later. Finally; He is to return once again physically to rule and reign on the earth.

    2 Timothy 2:8 and 2 Thessalonians 2:2 show we should avoid the error of stating that the resurrection has already occurred or the day of the Lord is at hand. Matthew 24:26 states that the Lord hasn't come yet for those who say He is hiding somewhere and also states the likeness of His arrival as lightning in the very next verse. This should be enough to disclaim what Preterists state that the Lord has already come. Therefore I would contend that full Preterists that state this are far enough off in doctrine that we should avoid fellowship with them.

    Assuming we have the essentials of salvation straightened out; there are many other warnings and admonitions in scripture such as testing ourselves to see if we are in the faith would involve ( 2 Corinthians 13:5). We need to accept that doctrines aren't just what is required to be saved; but also what is necessary to prove that we are bringing fruits worthy of repentance ( Matthew 3:8 and many other similar verses). We are not subject to the law in some sense IF we are truly dead to sin ( Romans 6:11) in one sense; because we have a new nature; but in the same token we DESIRE to obey Christ and love and serve Him as Lord; Master and Savior.
  • Bennymkje - 4 weeks ago
    Matt.21:23-27 "If thy eye be evil"

    "By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?"

    The triumphal entry of Jesus moved the city of Jerusalem and the commotion brought chief priests and elders to see it for themselves. "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"(13:55) In his own country the townsfolk were offended and in Jerusalem he was all the more a question mark. "Who gave thee this authority?"

    Jesus could have given the same answer he gave John, "Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see/ The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them."(11:4-6) What blessedness was in reducing the power and glory of God into some theorem to be proved? It is what serpent gave Eve asking her to prove God by some established truths. Knowledge of good and evil without the truth was neither here nor there. Ever since the world has been wrestling with it and to what purpose?

    Man raises razor-wire fencing to keep migrants out while within wildfires menacingly spread into an inferno does man see any connection? Of course not. His mind has been corrupted by undue stress on reason to see his folly from evidences. Minds that devise nuclear bombs to halt a war in far-off Pacific theater of war may not have foreseen space based nuclear weapons but it has become the reality.

    The chief priests without faith could not determine if John's baptism was from heaven or not. They also wanted to please man so they were stumped by the question of Jesus. They were like the proverbial salt having lost savor was good for nothing. "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."(He.11:6)
  • Richard H Priday - 1 month ago
    But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. ( John 5:17).

    Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. ( Colossians 3:23-24).

    These two verses demonstrate to us that work in the secular or "spiritual" realm is to be done with all of our might (following the principal of Ecclesiastes 9:10). Christ actually states that in some cases such as John 4:38 that they have reaped what others have sown. John 4 discusses the conversion of the Samaritan woman (woman at the well) and her evangelistic campaign. In this case she did the sowing and the Disciples reaped the benefits. It is interesting to think that she was the first evangelist listed even before the Disciples were sent out two by two (I think). Even Jesus didn't have to work that hard in that respect; such gratitude for being saved by sins was shown in other women such as Mary Magdeline. Would we all approach the Great Commission with such eagerness.

    When it comes to our everyday jobs I am grateful in my situation even with just part time work being all that I can do with other responsibilities that I am surrounded by people that work hard. I work doing food prep in a high school kitchen; and especially with intense State Inspection coming those who would want to mess about won't remain very long. Having supervisors that I respect in each of the other surrounding schools in the District where we are sent on occasion is an added bonus; along with the lady from one of them that joined our team today. There are a number of passages discussing employer and employee relations (in many cases servant and master analogy). Our work ethic isn't a substitute for sharing God's Word; but an opportune moment won't earn any respect if we don't have a foundation of trusted service for the weeks or months before such a conversation can occur.
  • Richard H Priday - 1 month ago
    Idolatry: Exodus 20:4-5 state:

    4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

    5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

    Recently; there was an issue in regard to an artist that I have befriended in my local church. It seems another brother agrees with me; that images representing Christ or anything in the Godhead are included with any created item when it comes to worship. We cannot adequately represent a depiction of an omnipotent; omnipresent and omniscient God. Even if it doesn't cause us to worship it; we shouldn't tempt others who may be from backgrounds or denominations where such imagery is worshipped.

    Much of this type of logic is attempted to be justified in Catholicism; where we see images of Mary who according to their own theologians is supposed to be honored rather than worshipped. "How We Honor Jesus Through Mary" by Dave Armstrong written July 1 2015 states: " St. Louis Marie de Montfort, one of the giants in the history of Marian devotion, wrote: "We never give more honor to Jesus than when we honor his Mother, and we honor her simply and solely to honor him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek-Jesus, her Son."" Such is the logic of the author Carl Keating a leading Catholic apologist. In practice though we see people worshipping the images of the Virgin Mary and those indoctrinated in that believe in her perpetual virginity and that she was sinless; which is not recorded in scripture. In fact we see scriptures of Christ's brothers and sisters mentioned (see Mtthew 13:56; and John 7). Perhaps a depiction of a saint isn't an issue for us but we also shouldn't cause another to sin because of it
  • Bennymkje - 1 month ago
    Ze.13:7-9 "Shepherd and the little ones" (1 of 2)

    "Smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones"(v.7.b). This prophecy concerns Jesus Christ who declared,"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."( John 10:11)

    Having fixed it we shall call for the peripherals, and the chapter is referring to a day, "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David" (13:1)

    This day refers to the day decreed for the Son. "I will declare the decree: theLordhath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."(Ps.2:7) In that day is similar to the expression, unto this day' which refers to the earthly ministry. And this verse tells us that having finished his work he is seated on the right hand of the Most High, ("TheLordsaid unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool./TheLordshall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies "-Ps.110:1-2) that day refers to the latter days and a fountain shall be opened for Israel. In the vision of the Woman Clothed with the Sun indicates Jesus Christ has been taken to the throne so God sends the rod of his strength out of Zion. In short it is part of the unfinished ministry of his Son.

    This day decreed for the Son is further subdivided so when Jesus tells his captors "When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness." ( Luke 22:53) we can safely infer that Prophet Zechariah was referring to this moment. God the Father did not spare his own Son for our sakes. Consequently scattering the sheep was very much part of divine Will.

    "I will turn my hand upon the little one" in primary sense refers to the nation of Israel. Jesus had foretold, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate./For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth,"(Matt.23:38-39)
  • Richard H Priday - 1 month ago
    Another failure of the enemy of our souls and his tactics

    Satan knows that he failed in using the people such as Judas Iscariot; the Romans and the Pharisees to betray and then crucify Christ after the Resurrection occurred. He has another big surprise coming when the saints are all rewarded due to enduring patiently the trials which were largely devised by Satan to buffet God's saints while on the earth. They will come back to fight with Christ and do the subsequent cleanup of earth after that event (in reality we will be spectators of Christ who goes through the vineyard alone ( Isaiah 63:3) but rule and reign with a rod of iron with Christ afterwards. ( Rev. 2:26-27).

    The enemy has; as I have brought out on other occasions two primary tactics. One is of outright persecution and the second temptations to put us out of commission. There are several distinct advantages for the second method to be applied instead of the first. We must consider that if someone is taken out through martyrdom that they will no doubt be influencing others who will be continuing to accelerate the Great Commission. This method of seduction allows for infiltration and compromising of groups of people and exponentially infects the church; and we only need to look at today's sad state of affairs in American churches to see evidence of just how effective the last few decades of deception has been. If the enemy is in the camp then of course he can bring God's sore displeasure and we can see how effective that was with the absence of all seven churches listed in Revelation 2 and 3 from modern day Turkey (even if the Philadelphia church was faithful that nation has succumbed to what is likely about to once again be a Muslim Caliphate in the next few years.) Our country is seeing a shocking rise in paganism and Satanism today which of course has infiltrated many houses of worship in thinly disguised methods (such as cards with "Christian" images basically mimicking Tarot cards.)
  • Richard H Priday - 1 month ago
    Christ's ultimate sacrifice: Primary purpose was to do God's will.

    In studying Christ's death on the cross and the resulting salvation of our souls it is no small thing to focus attention and time on such a matter on a regular basis. At least from our perspective the meaning to us personally must be considered with all due reverence for how He took us from death to life. John 17:6-8 makes clear that God was the one who gave Christ all the ones who were to be saved. The following verses ask for unity among them all; and to be in the world but not of it (in general). These verses prayed during His agony in Gethsemane are the summation of much of the earlier chapters in John clearly showing that God was the one who predetermined (predestined) all those who would be saved and hear His voice as His sheep.

    However you slice it; there are some who will and will not come to Christ. Also God knows ahead of time who these people are so therefore certainly could have designated ahead of time who would be sheep and who would be a goat; who would be wheat and who a tare; etc. In other words; it wasn't up to Christ to give out any information that could lead someone to the truth in a merely intellectual manner and therefore much of His ministry was spent teaching in parables. Compare Mark 4:12 with Luke 8:12. The lack of insight given so that people can be saved is clear from the first passage; but Satan is used as the agent to blind men's hearts in the second example in Luke of the seed by the wayside.

    There are as Deuteronomy 29:29 states some things in the Divine counsel which men are not privy to. Certain things can be searched out; however ( Proverbs 25:2). John 3:16 states that God so loved the world and sent His Son. We should keep in mind here that Christ came first and foremost to do the Father's will. All those called and chosen would be saved EXCEPT for the prophesied son of perdition (see Psalm 69:25; Psalm 41:9; Psalm 109).
  • Bennymkje - 1 month ago
    Ps.23: 3-4 "Abiding in Christ" (1 of 2)

    "He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake./Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

    "For his name's sake" is what holiness does. Holy is his name as Mary would cry out inspired by it is doable. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father./And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son./ If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it." John 14:12-14)

    Manufacturing names gave the nation of Israel something to crow about which simply meant nothing since holiness of their names did not go deeper to be 'be holy for I am holy." Their heart was not right that they observed the minutiae of the requirements of Law without knowing the fulfillment of the Law was represented in the Son whom God had sent.They rejected him proving that their heart was estranged all along. A no better example we need seek than the time God gave the nation of Israel the decalogue. "And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die."(Ex.20:19). Jesus was among them when a voice from heaven spoke. "Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again./The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him./Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes."( John 12:28-30) God had judged their hypocrisy.

    Holiness of name is doable and a clear proof of it is in the glory it sheds."I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do."(17:4) Jesus Christ in his humanity finished the work proving it was doable.
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Thank you Ronald, indeed a brother in Christ. Certainly, no offence taken at all. You have shared what you clearly believe from the Word, as I have also done (and btw not from tradition). Actually, I oppose 'tradition' as a basis for belief or action in matters spiritual; so it takes much study & prayer on my part in either accepting or rejecting what is generally accepted by the Church to what is actually given in the Bible. Maybe, that is why I never 'perfectly fit' into any congregation - but again, does anyone if they're honest?

    So, in one sense, it becomes a personal matter until the Spirit sheds His Light to bring us understanding. And as I mentioned earlier, we may, even with our differences on this subject, might still be closer in agreement than we realize. After all, you do believe, I trust, that it was God Who placed His Holy Seed in Mary, so immediately we know that this was no ordinary human birth. The matter then surrounds whether this Seed was first in another Form within God's Person Who was also involved in creation & very likely in other Works of God, or not. As you wrote, we will know all these things "at the end of the road". Blessings to you & yours, in Christ Jesus and thanks again for a good lively discussion.
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Page 1.

    It is true Ronald, that most of those Scriptures you've cited certainly show that there is only One God & none else. I can wholeheartedly agree with that belief, that we together share in.

    You also mentioned the Holy Spirit. Without introducing the Holy Spirit into this thread but for the sake of comparison & meditation, I'm sure you wouldn't deny that God sent out His Spirit to accomplish His Work in the World & in hearts ( John 16:7-11, & others). How can God send out His Spirit, & yet be Who He is, without being grossly deficient in His Being? Is God now Spirit-less since the Holy Spirit has been sent into the World & how can the Spirit also be dissected into millions of 'parts' (Spirits), filling each true believer with Himself, i.e. with God's Presence in them? Likewise, if God can do so with His Spirit & still be Spirit Himself, & this is a mystery to us, can He not also do so with His Word? Does this leave God devoid of knowledge, speech or thought, because He sent out His Word first by the prophets, then in & through His Son? ( Hebrews 1:1-3). The difference here now is, this Word was not just a spoken Word, but the "Word was made flesh". We couldn't say this, nor have read that any prophet of the OT, having received the Word, was made flesh.

    With the many Scriptures that have already been given, I find it very reasonable to believe that this Word was treated just as God did with His Spirit. God sent out His Word in the olden days via His prophets, but the time had come when His Word would be sent out in His Son. If all we had was the account in Matthew 1:20-25 that Mary gave birth to a special Son, from the Holy Seed of God, then yes, this appearance of this One called Emmanuel & Jesus, was indeed a fresh creation by God to bring out His Word, not just in speech form, but in demonstration of the Holiness of God, His Power, His Love, & ultimately, His Sacrifice. Onto Page 2.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Hey Chris.

    Part one,

    As I said I am not the best in explaining my understanding and I will try, I feel you deserve it, for you have been gracious to even discuss this with me.

    1 Corinthians 15:47 This is after Jesus was raised from the dead and Paul is saying our Lord. First the earthy the first Adam then the spiritual the last Adam Jesus who did come from heaven when Jesus, God's Son was conceived in Mary's womb.

    We see in Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Jesus defeated death because He was without sin the firstborn from the dead the only man who lived a perfect life. After He was baptized and anointed God gave Him authority John 5:26-27.

    Matthew 1:20 Acts 17:31 Rev. 12:5 My understanding is the preexistence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created. A man caused sin to enter mankind and it had to be a man to live a perfect life to fulfill and make void the law, God could not do that.

    Hebrews 1:5 Jesus is not a God there is only one true God, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. a man who is God's Son conceived in Mary, who God raised in a glorified body and placed Him on His right side on His throne above all that is in heaven and earth and under the earth.

    See part two.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Chris,

    Part two,

    Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.

    1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.

    Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.

    As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.

    I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.

    Love you brother and God bless.

    RLW
  • Chris - 1 month ago
    To Brother Ronald Whittemore & others. I'm unable to respond to Ronald's last response to me, as the Reply button is missing (probably purposely done to limit the comments in that thread). So this one comes as a new Thread to address those matters.

    Page 1.

    Thanks again Ronald, and I note that you would like a recess on this discussion. But if I might briefly address the Scriptures you shared & why I believe that they don't answer the question, 'was Jesus' first appearance only from the womb of Mary, or did He exist in another Form within the Person of God?'

    To your references:

    1 Corinthians 15:47: "the second man is the Lord from Heaven" (not a Man Who became Lord, Who went into Heaven & then returned to Earth as Lord from Heaven - but the Lord Who was in Heaven & came to Earth, unlike the first man, Adam, Who was created from the Earth & back to the Earth he went).

    1 Timothy 2:5: yes, Jesus is the Mediator now between God & mankind after His ascension.

    Matthew 1:20, Acts 17:31, Revelation 12:5: yes again, all point to Jesus as a Man/Babe Who came from God - but no direct reference to any previous existence.

    Hebrews 1:5: indeed, Jesus became the Son of God by virtue of this miraculous Birth, but then God would have created another god, because 'all the angels of God are to worship Him'; & none can receive worship but God alone. You asked, "How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father?" Because God took His Word & gave Flesh to that Word, and this Flesh was brought into the World by the Work of God, which made this One called Jesus, God's Son. Jesus only became the Son of God at the Incarnation.

    Hebrews 2:7: Jesus was made "a little lower than the angels" by virtue of His Humanity. It seems there is an order of created beings before God: the angels being above humanity, of which Jesus was made, thus subjecting Him to being our equal.

    Onto Page 2.
  • Adam - In Reply - 1 month ago
    It's my opinion that the Pope and its Vatican city empire are not Christian. I think many well-meaning Catholics are Christian though- if they truly follow Jesus. However, just like Mormonism, when you start peeling back the layers of its administration, you see massive corruption and violation of God's word in the organization.

    Many Catholics hold Mary to a higher position than Jesus and even worship graven images. There's plenty of photo and video proof of people worshipping, praying to, and bowing down to statues of Mary- very common in Latin America and many places. Millions and millions do this. There's also strange gargoyles and images of demons on old Catholic church buildings which makes you wonder what is really behind that.

    Lots of well-meaning protestants also teach their kids to worship Santa Claus so there is plenty of sin and corruption to go around. Even putting pagan symbols in the churches, like Christmas trees. I've never understood the thinking behind that.
  • Bennymkje - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Hi Adam,

    Holy is his name, and Mary is referring God. As the Word become flesh Jesus claimed 'I and my Father are one.(John10:30)

    In his humanity he was faithful and true witness to the Word. In his resurrection he triumphed over death. God gave him a name cannot be greater than holiness which is His nature. "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:/That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;/And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."(Ph.2:9-11)
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Hi Giannis,

    Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.

    When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.

    John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

    God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.

    My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Giannis - 2 months ago
    Hello brothers and sisters

    I have a question for all fellow christians who do not consider that Jesus is God.(hello Ronald, I saw your comment and I was reminded of something I was thinking lately.)

    Let me do an introduction before going to my point. When we talk with people from the Orthodox church who often pray to saints or to Mary Jesus' mother, we ask them how is it possible that they hear you all, millions and millions of you, they are not Gods after all. So many millions of people pray to Mary, how is she able to hear them all and, as they claim, she often responds. She is not God, only God can do that.

    So I come to what I want to say. Somewhere in NT, Jesus says that when two or more are gathered in His name then He is there among them. How is that possible if Jesus is not God. Because at the same time I believe thousands of congregations take place in the whole world. To do such a thing one must have divine properties. He also said somewhere that when we ask something in His name then He will do that. How can He hear millions of prayers simultaneously if He is not God.

    Expecting for your opinion.
  • Bennymkje - 2 months ago
    "Number Six" (2 of 2)

    In receiving Christ as the Savior the believer is tagged as the number Seven. Seven in a primary sense is determined in heaven. It speaks for the mystery of his Will. As a new creation The word is his heart or he abides in Christ.(Col.3:1-3). In short Seven is made up of 3+4 (where the sum of 3 the tag for the Son and 4 for the Word become flesh.)

    This brings us to the beast, the son of perdition in whom the word of God has no place; neither does he acknowledge the supremacy of the Son.

    Satan as destroyer is the angel gone rogue. The Spirit introduces Goliath as epitome of spiritual wickedness in high place (Ge.6:1-3). He is a giant a tag as the number 6 signifies. While describing the person the Spirit gives a list of sixes: his height 6 cubits and the steel point of his javelin weighed 6x100 shekels. It ties with another giant, "And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.." (2 Sa.21:20)

    "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not./ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets." (Matt.24:23-24) We are looking at the present times. False Christs and false prophets have their spiel to deceive the unwary. Jesus shall appear as a sign, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (24:27-30)

    He appears to gather and not for reigning the disobedient children of wrath on the earth. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him."(Re.1:7)
  • Bennymkje - 2 months ago
    Re.2:17 "A new name" (1 of 2)

    "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

    We shall try to understand the significance of the name which is the basis for the new heaven and the new earth.

    Mary's testimony "Holy is his name" ( Luke 2:48) came from 'the angel Gabriel was sent from God' so we are looking at the name from the standpoint of God. He named the heaven, the earth and so on. So holiness of God as testified by his Son forms on the name he acquired above every other name. His humility and the power of God raising him the dead creates a new insight into the name His humility and the power of God raising him the dead creates a new insight into the name. We have this verse, "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross./Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name." (Ph..2:8-9).

    This explains the will of the Father."For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;/And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."(Co.1:19-20). As the inheritor who is worthy to give a name but Jesus Christ. So he promises the overcomer from the church in Pergamos a new name which is as personal as the man on the white horse carried. "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war./2His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself./And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."(Re.19:11-13)

    Jesus Christ is the Word become flesh and he overcame the world.
  • Bennymkje - 2 months ago
    "Dreams"

    Dreams are outside the will of man. Man has no power in himself to write history any more than choose his dreams or the script for what he sees in his REM state. Dreams are arranged according to the divine Will shaping all events so what God looks for is faith,- the DNA of God, 'Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God.(He.11:3). It is the quality unseen characteristic of divine pedigree.

    Those who doubt the Virgin birth have no clue as they apply their rational mind for what is purely spiritual. God had revealed to Isaiah of virgin birth 'The virgin shall herself conceive and bear a Son '(Is.7:14) . It is the task of the Spirit to arrange matters so the Angel visits Mary and reveal the birth of her son. Simultaneously he also visits Joseph in a dream. Matt.1:20). In the revolt of Miriam and Aaron against Moses God intervenes and tells, "Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream (Nu.12:6)".It is thus the Sprit sets up dreams and visions on a need-to-know basis. On the other the Will of God is perfect requiring no correction whatsoever. So in Trinity the third office is about the time aspect .

    We were foreknown by Him and events so arranged each of us to confess his Son as the Savior. It is also validated in the birth of Jesus that Palestine was under the Roman rule so crucifixion foretold by prophets would occur accordingly.
  • Bennymkje - 2 months ago
    "Doubt"

    Faith is one and doubt is denial of it without having any credential to dispute the word of God. There is nothing we have brought of ourselves to doubt without cutting off the very ground of existence. "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."(2 Ti.2:19)

    Where names of people are called before the foundation of the world we have instances of doubt as in the case of Mary, "And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God."( Luke 1:29-30).

    Simon Peter had doubts which God was quick to dispel, "Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate." (Ac.10:17) These two instances when the Will of God "The Now aspect) connects with the now of man there could be moment of perplexity but God sees to it that His children are left in in doubt. The Spirit sent Evangelist Philip to clear the passage for the Ethiopian eunuch. "For those doubters who still harp on their pet peeves the Spirit says, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."(2 Co.4:3-4)


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