We are not joined with those outside the body of Christ so, what are we as children of light supposed to do in a lost dark world?
We are to bare light and that light is supposed to shine on Christ.
We are his ambassadors in a foreign land.
We are to display the work of Christ in our lives and the evidence of a new birth bearing fruit. By this all people will know we are his disciples, and the fruit (especially Love for the Brothern) will also Distinguish between a false teaching religion/teachers and spirit filled believers where the spirit gathers and energizes. This is the operation of God by the baptism of the Holy spirit.
SCRIPTURE REFERENCES; John 13:34-35, Matthew 7:16-20. 1 1John 4:20-21, If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
We are to Love the unbeliever, witness to them, and treat them with kindness and help them in a Godly way.
So, in what ways we are not to be unequally yoked with them? Many things can be mentioned but I won't get into that here.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
"The command implies that a great difference exists between a believer and an unbeliever. Generally speaking, the motivations, goals, and methods of a Christian are incompatible with those of an unbeliever.
Faith changes the character of a person. A Christian's highest ambition in life is to glorify the Lord Jesus and please Him in all things; an unbeliever is, at best, indifferent to such goals. "
Again, don't get me wrong here, we are called to minister to them in particular.
That is the Lords Commission. Luke 4:18.
It is our Great Commission to spread the Gospel; Matthew 28:16-20.
We do that with truth! We don't do it with lies and deception.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord JESUS shall be REVEALED from heaven with His mighty angels, (for example, Michael. Daniel 12:1-3 combined with Revelation 12)
8 In FLAMING FIRE taking vengeance on them that know not GOD( Matthew 11:27), and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be PUNISHED with everlasting destruction( Revelation 11:18) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His Power( Matthew 28:18);
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe...in this day. (The last Day, the seventh and last Day-this Day just arrived-, or seventh and last millennium)
1John 2:28 - And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Isaiah 33:10-14
10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, ye that are far off(Gentile peoples), what I have done; and, ye that are near(Jewish people), acknowledge my might.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the DEVOURING FIRE? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? -> Hebrews 12:29- For our GOD is a consuming fire.
The Word is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?
My post yesterday discussed Christ as firstfruits; specifically that raised from the dead. HIs uniqueness includes the following:
Being God in the flesh. This makes Him superior to all of His creation whether man or angels. Yet He had to be made a little lower than the angels to live vicariously that is in our place yet suffer all things as we do without sin. Hebrews enlightens us on this subject in many places and I would suggest studying the entire book as I did a few years back with a small group.
Besides His sinless life; we have His death and resurrection; which demonstrated His victory over the grave and sin and His atonement for God's chosen sons and daughters.
He has a name only He knows .( Revelation 19:12)
He has been given all authority over heaven and earth ( Matthew 28:18)
He has the keys to the gates of hell ( Revelation 1:18)
He will rule forever ( Isaiah 9:7; Luke 1:33)
One aspect that is sometimes glossed over is that God can be jealous; and for HIs own Name's sake and also desire worship and be sinless. This is something that for any created being; man or angel that leads to destruction. This is why any image man creates of his conception of God is so dangerous and warned against in verses such as Exodus 20:4. That verse doesn't specifically mention God but it states anything in heaven above or earth below thus the Godhead would also be included. God can't be seen by human eyes ( John 1:18). Christ is by far the most represented in paintings and sculpture of the members of the Godhead; but with man's idolatrous heart he is led to worship these images much as he does with Mary and the "saints" whether real or imaginary ones in terms of their earthly ministry. The image of the cross is only beneficial as an offense and a curse; and is only beneficial to remind us of Christ's sufferings but also we need to look beyond that to His Resurrection and current ministry ( Heb. 7:25).
What is the meaning of created? Does it mean something that is made out of nothing? I would have to say no, Jesus is the Son of God who was conceived in the womb of Mary, Matthew 1:20Luke 1:35, I do not think I would say He was created.
If so, when did He come into existence?
In God's plan before anything and physically when He was conceived in Mary's womb.
Do you believe that the Son is only human in nature?
Jesus is the Son of God fully human but without sin same as the first Adam, Scripture is clear when Jesus was baptized, He was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit without measure, John 3:34. All the works of Jesus were done by the Spirit of God, Matthew 4:16Matthew 12:28Acts 10:38.
Do you believe that Jesus became "the Christ" during His lifetime (Adoptionism)?
I had never heard of Adoptionism until now, I had to look it up, it's false. Christ and Messiah are the same; Jesus was anointed by the Spirit of God after He was baptized by John, He then was made the Messiah/Christ fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 9:25. Jesus is the Son of God conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Ghost/Spirit.
Do you believe Jesus ever aquired a divine nature in His earthly life?
If you mean a divine nature is to have all the attributes that make God who He is I would have to say no. If so, Jesus could not sin or be tempted, Matthew 4:1Hebrews 4:15. If so, Jesus living a perfect life without sin is meaningless. Jesus could not have died; Jesus was given the power of the Holy Spirit when He was anointed the Messiah. After He rose from the dead God gave Jesus all power in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:18. God raised and placed Jesus on His right side, Ephesians 1:21-23. Jesus did not return to where He was before, God the Father placed everything under Jesus God's only begotten Son's feet and Jesus will reign until the last enemy is destroyed, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
As most proclaiming Christ know Matthew 28:19 states:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
As to the definition of a disciple; that would be an interesting topic for those more familiar with the meaning of the original language. It certainly involves being a follower of those with true teachings; and is a group activity. Such should be the case in regard to evangelism; but from my experience it is often lacking. There is often inconsistency if group efforts to evangelize whether on the street or in a retirement community so that the routine relationships and the time spent and frequency of appearance for the recipients of the message discourages building deep and long lasting relationships. Such relationships are the basis for further instruction of doctrines from those in church leadership. It is admittedly hard when we are reaching those who are elderly or infirmed to establish a method of transportation to church; and hence it is easier when we can find those qualified to bring a service to such a location as a nursing home which I have seen with some success in the past. The same issue; of course has to be considered for those on the streets who may need special attention that may be violent or have substance abuse issues.
As believers; I have stated before that it is helpful on the streets for example to have some focusing on praying for others while others preach. We also can't undervalue prayer for the saints who are laboring as to their safety and reaching the individuals God has predetermined to meet on a particular day.
I am hopeful that funding for church missions can be more focused on activities in local communities rather than being funneled overseas in totality. If there is a disconnect between Christians fellowshipping in a building and how we to operate in evangelism going to church won't be understood properly.
I thanks fully of your prayers in the name of the Lord JESUS
You know that the Lord's Church is living in perilous times- 1Timothy 4:1-2- , I also pray to the Lord asking Him to help us and keep us under His powerful hands- Acts 11:21- , and He bless His people in whole Earth; giving them victories in struggles, in difficulties, and supplying the needs of each one, and healing illnesses and warding off the evils and the sickness in the among His people. And above all in giving Wisdom and understanding of His Word to all, lifting up the fallen, strengthening the weak and downcast by the Power of His Word. Amen. Matthew 28:18.
Our Lord JESUS promised: Unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance... Matthew 25:29. Amen.
May our Lord GOD bless us, and keep us, and give us His protection
You posted that ''when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the ALMIGHTY GOD (El Shaddai); walk before me, and be thou perfect".
Who is the Almight GOD? My Lord JESUS said: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty- Revelation 1:8.
JESUS is the Lord, understand? JESUS is the Almighty, not other name except JESUS is the Almighty- Matthew 28:18
My Lord JESUS and GOD the Father are One. The Word is GOD, GOD Himself, when He was made flesh around 2000 years ago, GOD called Himself of JESUS, don't you know? JESUS /JOSHUA is the true NAME of GOD.
If you believe the name of the I AM is El Shaddai you are believing the Devil.
Cris, be careful and don't fall in the Devil traps.
I thank you so much for discussing this and thank you Giannis. I am not the best at explaining my understanding.
I know John 1:1 we see it differently but what beginning makes the difference, it was the word of God in Jesus as Jesus never said it was His words but the Father's words, and God was manifested in Jesus John 1:142 Corinthians 5:19. In Colossians as well as Ephesians that is similar My understanding Paul is talking about the risen Christ as faith in Christ, redemption that is in Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, we are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, the risen Jesus.
I read what you replied to Momsage on this and I hope you are not considering me in the Gnostic camp. My understanding comes totally from Scripture and the Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in Scripture, it was hundreds of years after the deaths of the apostles, as in Matthew 28:19 is taken as the Trinity and many churches abide by this today, but nowhere in Scripture do we see anyone baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, what we see is only in the name of Jesus?
I know you will not agree but to say Jesus is God this verse stands out to me 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
God the Father granted Christ all authority on heaven and earth which sets forth the ultimate example of how God worked to reward the perfect obedience of Christ. It also goes against Satan's offer to worship him to have such authority. ( Matthew 28:18; Matthew 4:9).
One may question how Christ; who Himself brought all of creation into existence would have such a destiny. ( Colossians 1:16-20). In that situation; one may say that He was the Person to do the work that the Father had planned; and His agent as it were was the Spirit of God (hovering over the waters as it states in Genesis 1:2).
We realize in this that no servant is greater than his master. ( John 15:20). We all are nothing without Him; yet He will likewise exalt the humble with positions to rule and reign with Christ in the Millennium. In some sense we can say that Christ emptied Himself so that He could be our High Priest suffering in all ways but without sin. ( Heb. 4:15). As the second Adam He was able to keep from the temptations of the devil to fall unlike Adam; as well as fulfilling the law perfectly which no man could do. ( 1 Cor. 15:45-47).
It is hard to get our mind around these facts; that He who created all things would start from conception as a helpless babe and end as a sheep to the slaughter ( Isaiah 53:7); the Lamb of God which will forever be ascribed to His Name. Of course all of us who are saved are adopted sons; ( Ephesians 1:5) part of the eternal lineage of the rightous (as contrasted with the earth dwellers in Revelation 11:10).
Christ is returning as conquering king. He alone trods the winepress ( Isaiah 63:3). He alone brings forth the TRUE one world government of peace and rules in righteousness; impartially judging as many verses in Isaiah testify. Some verses can be taken symbolically but to not take Revelation 19 literally or somehow think Christ already returned in some mystical way is heretical thinking (see 2 Tim. 2:18)
"I have another comment about the KJV . I think the reason that MANY ascribe an almost mythical status"
A true believer does not believe the bible is mythical, which means made up, they love it in all it's truth and glory. It could have been penned by anyone under God's anointing, but He decided to use king James for the very reasons you give.
"It seems quite a reasonable arguement to me , but it's one that I'm staying out of as of now :)."
You speak your opinion and give what you believe is a reasonable argument but then tell people you won't discuss what they have to say with them. That's your right, of course, but it seems a little unfair to others here because, after all, this is a discussion forum.
DISCUSSION
Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.
"I learned a long time ago that the chances of me ever being able to change anyone's opinion about anything are almost nil , so I don't often try . MATTHEW 28: 16-20
I hope and pray all goes well with you and God blesses you mightily and I will honor your wishes. God Bless :)
Thanks for the clarification. If we already discussed this months or years ago I just don't remember, so thank you for explaining. I have a better idea of what you meant now. I'm glad you're a Christian.
My comment didn't have much to do with baptism but your comment did and it seems you were making a distinction between Matthew 28:19 and examples in the Bible where people were baptized. I would have to review to know what if anything was mentioned as being said.
I don't believe people have to believe in a Godhead to be saved. I think you were thinking that was a requirement. I don't believe this is a salvation issue, but just trying to understand the Bible and arrive at the truth. I believe that is the goal here.
You wrote: "Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian."
In the last 50 years or more I've attended many different Christian church denominations and I've never once heard of anyone saying you must believe in a trinity to be saved. Are you sure that is what someone said? This not what typical Christians believe. Can you give an example of what specific Christian church denomination and location or if it was just one person who said this?
I once went to a Calvary Chapel where the guy gave a sermon that said if you don't vote for Obama then you're not a Christian. But I knew enough to know that guy was wacko and his cult beliefs did not represent others in the calvary chapel or in Christianity. It's a common logical fallacy to generalize an entire group of people for one individuals actions or beliefs. What's ironic is Obama is a muslim and pro-abortion, which is a very anti-Christian belief.
But as for not believing Jesus is God. If John 1:1 said and the Word was NOT God, then I would find this belief more credible, but it says the opposite. Jesus is the Word: Revelation 19:13. He's also the I AM: John 8:58, Exodus 3:14.
I understand your passion and I believe you may have misunderstood parts of my post; I am sorry. Your first question is yes, I am a follower of Jesus. Jesus answered the scribe and said, Mark 12: 29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And yes, I do, but am I perfect, NO.
I do not belong to any denomination; I have attended many denominations but Catholic and I am in my 70s and there is not a church close to me now that I feel comfortable going to. John 1:1 I will say my understanding is different and too long to explain in this reply maybe another thread.
What I meant about Matthew 28:19 is in this verse Jesus told them to go baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. People use this to support the Trinity doctrine but nowhere in the New Testament is anyone baptized in the name of the three, people were only baptized in the name of Jesus not that there was no baptizing in the New Testament, but they were only baptized in the name of Jesus.
As you listed Acts 4:10-12 only by the name of Jesus and "none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. And that name is who they baptized people in the New Testament not of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian. Can you show me where that was said or was taught anywhere in the New Testament?
I am sorry we do not agree on this, and I hope this helps you understand my last post, and may we be guided by the Holy Spirit in our study for the truth, we are one body.
I don't remember who believes what in this forum, but I feel a duty to defend Jesus and defend the truth, so I will share God's word. I feel that's the least I can do as a Christ follower. Do you consider yourself a Christ follower?
If you don't believe Jesus is God then I wonder if you believe Christians are in violation of the 1st of the 10 commandments? Because if you don't think Jesus is God or divine then you might think putting Jesus #1 in their life is bad? If you can explain your religious doctrine or denomination more that would be helpful.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
It is like Matthew 28:19
I'd like to ask about your comment, "the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
I don't totally understand this comment yet. Are you saying you don't see baptizing isn't in the new testament? Because you replied with a verse that is in the new testament, so you seemed to have refuted your own comment?
And the latter half of your comment is "...and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
But the Bible says precisely that in Acts 4:12. It says:
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:10-12 KJV
It says the name of Jesus Christ is through whom we are saved. It says it plain as day. Did I understand your comment correctly?
Also it flat out says Jesus is God in John 1:1 "Word was God" and it says Jesus is the Word in at least a couple other verses
Thank you, you are correct I believe in one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as most of the greetings in the epistles Ephesians 6:231 Thessalonians 1:1 and more, and nowhere is this doctrine taught in the New Testament that we must believe for salvation.
It is like Matthew 28:19 the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved. My study of 1 John 5:7 is that it was added from the Latin Vulgate and was not in the original text, but that can be debated.
I understand I am in the minority and have discussed this before. We can find Scripture to fit a doctrine, but can we find Scripture where the doctrine was taught? I have not found where the Trinity doctrine is taught. Like Genesis 1:26 there are many beings in heaven and the word us does not say God was speaking to Jesus, that is an assumption.
Thank you again for discussing this in a loving and respectful manor, this subject is deep and as long as we have love for each other, and truth is what we are in search of.
Has eternal punishment begun? In fact, it is already LITERALLY running. It's very hard to understand and to say, but the Truth is we have entered in the period of sorrows, a time of great sufferings and it will be until the END of this current world, world of Devil, and this until of the coming of JESUS as was prophesied since ancient time. JESUS warned that there shall be upon the earth distress of nations, and men's hearts failing them for fear looking those things which are coming on the earth- Luke 21:25-28-, and He Himself is already executing His prophetic words, understand? JESUS left very clear, saying: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth- Matthew 28:18- I think this statement of my Lord JESUS is wonderful and impressive. By the way, be sure that our Lord JESUS does not need to be visible for now to execute His prophecies, the Word is GOD, it is prophetic, self-executing at a prophetically predetermined time.
Get ready
Rest assured that as prophesied by the prophets, and apostles, and especially by our Lord JESUS, the ETERNAL punishment had a specific and predetermined period of time to begin, I MUST say that it has already begun because there will not be any gap in the transition from the period of SORROWS to the period of ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, in fact it is without a gap, in fact it is sequential, yes, there will be no gap between these two terrible events, it has already begun and it will NEVER END, it will NEVER STOP, it will be forever and ever.
Jesus of Nazareth came; in the flesh to fulfill numerous prophecies from the Old Testament of the Messiah to come; yet most didn't believe. This is inclusive of His own family members; the Pharisees and Saducees; and at times attitudes from His own disciples.
Eventually after He was risen the stupor was lifted at least for those who He had called and chosen. (see John 1:11; John 7:4-5).
In assessing the situation with the very real parable of Lazarus and the unnamed rich man; the very clear reality is shown that even if one was to rise from the dead they wouldn't believe ( Luke 16:31). This was proven by the soldiers and the concocted tale of how the body of Christ was stolen while they slept ( Matthew 28:13). It would be expected that the supernatural signs with the sun and moon during the Crucifixion would have been enough to convince everyone what had just happened; but we see similar things during the plagues in Revelation; yet the unregenerate in the end will attempt to fight Christ upon His return after hiding from Him during the sixth seal judgment.
Thus; the Holy Spirit is hidden from the world. Much as Christ's acts were recognized; many would not understand that He was indeed the Son of God. Some; as the Pharisees would blaspheme stating that the source was Beelzebub which prompted the warnings of Mark 3:29. Others such as the crowds being fed or those being healed were caught up with having their stomachs filled or earthly ills relieved; and as we see in Luke 17:11-19 only one of ten lepers comes back to Christ to worship Him after being healed. The rest followed Christ's instructions technically to go show themselves to the priests to affirm healing but weren't giving priority to the Messiah over Levitical law. This speaks to us on how we should not have fear to authenticate what are genuine healings as opposed to false ones which sadly are commonplace today.
Commitment to GOD'S way will bring us closer to being the type of person HE desires us to be. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
Titus 2:11-14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
We will be able to conduct ourselves in accordance to the mind of CHRIST, heeding the leadership before us. Romans 13:1-5
Being crucified in CHRIST, and knowledgeable in HIS word we are able to go forward and carry out HIS word and make disciples, Matthew 28:18-20; being encouraged, we will go out to reach the lost, 2 Peter 3:9.
May we be faithful in our prayers for the peace in Jerusalem, and for the authority before us,
Isaiah 55:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
1 Timothy 2:1-6
GOD to shine HIS blessed face upon us as we put on the new man in CHRIST name, and put off the old man. For if any man be in CHRIST, he is a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17
Thank YOU FATHER for the faithfulness of the brethren here on this forum. Help us to be prayed up, and be reminded to wear the armor of GOD daily. Ephesians 6:11-18
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all. December 21, 2023
John 10:34- seems to be a popular verse here. People want to believe they are a god, is that what's happening here? That would be a gross misinterpretation. You know this is a quote with a question mark at the end, right? Let's be honest about it. Here's the commentary for that:
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
Thank you for your thoughts and adding to the discussion.
Yes, we are to reap; however, we are still called to sow the seed. Matthew 28: 18-20. This is because we don't know when the LORD JESUS comes and our work is ended here on earth. We keep sowing, because GOD is not willing that any one perish, but all come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9.
For one plants, another waters, but GOD gives the increase.
1 Corinthians 3:6-11
We sow through CHRIST JESUS in our testimony, and witness as people see our daily relationship with our SAVIOR. In our sharing and declaring of the Salvation of the LORD. Titus 2:11-14.
GOD bless you in your ministry of faith. November 29, 2023
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28Revelation 20:14.
What is the commandment of God now in the new testament? Not the ten commandments the law of Moses. It is now in Christ Jesus as God turned the show over to his Son Jesus Christ. The law of spirit of life.
Matthew 17:5] While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Matthew 28:18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
2nd Cor 1:19] For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
[20] For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Jesus now owns the show. What Paul is talking about in 1st Cor 7:19 circumcision or uncircumcision means nothing any more in the new testament, we are now circumcised in heart and no longer an outward appearence. You are still trying to preach a Jesus that is born of Mary as if he is still here. My Jrsus we know more after the flesh as it is not an outward appearance but an inward one. Your glorifying in appearance and not in the heart
2nd Cor 5:12] For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
Circumcision or uncircumcision don't matter in the new testament we are one in Christ.
Col 3:[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
[11] Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
The Commandments of Jesus = his words of spirit and life John 6:63. Get out of the old and into the new as old things has passed away and all things have become new.
Our current situation is grave, but not over whelming; because our GOD is sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Jeremiah waited 10 days, Daniel waited 21 days. We Saints shall wait patiently for the LORD and HIS answer.
May we be faithful in our SAVIOR, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, as we wait. We are called to be fruitful in our carrying out HIS desire for us. To make disciples Matthew 28: 18-20; to pray for those in authority 1 Timothy 2:1-3; submit ourselves to GOD and resist the devil James 4: 7, 8.
GOD to shine HIS face on all the saints and bless us that we may also be a
You said in your post that according to John Wesley,"Michael here is commonly supposed to mean Christ."So you are working with the supposition that "The early Protestant leaders believed" it be. And you are also believing in their suppositions and false interpretations of the Word of GOD spreading here and elsewhere what they preached according to their suppositiions, and speculations, and conjectures.
You posted that a certain Joo Gill said: "and is no other than Christ the Son of God, an uncreated angel who is 'one' or the first of the chief princes." But What does the Word of GOD say? Hebrews 1:1-8
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of THE PERSON of GOD the Father, and upholding all things by the word of His power( Matthew 28:18.Take a look), when Had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better THAN THE ANGELS, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent NAME than they.
5For UNTO WHICH OF THE ANGELS said He(GOD the Father)at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son?(Yeah, to which of the angels GOD the Father said that?)
6And again,when GOD bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,He saith, And let all the angels of GOD worship Him.
7And of the angels GOD saith,Who maketh His angels spirits(winds),and His ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son GOD the Father saith:Thy throne,O God,is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
JESUS is God,the KING of the kings,and LORD of the lords,understand?Even Michael said to Joshua:I am the captain of the host of the LORD.(Michael is a lord too)
I hope your day has gone well. It is morning here in Washington state.
When I read your post to Chris, I immediately though of Matthew 22:23 where Jesus said, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
To me, Jesus is saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive.
Also, refer to 1 Samuel, 2:6 in the song Hannah sang, "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive; he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up."
Notice the order, first death, then made alive. Of course this happens fully in the resurrection, but in considering what Jesus said that He who believes in me will never die. ( john 11:26)
And, one of my favorite verses: Romans 8:37-39
"Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
This clearly says that death cannot separate us from God.
And Jesus said to His disciples, "Behold, I AM with you always, even to the end of the world." Matthew 28:20
And Paul encourages believers by reminding them that God said, "I will never leave You nor forsake you." Hebrews 13:5, Josh. 1:5
So, to me, always and never mean that we will always be alive, whether in this life now or after we die.
Therefore, I believe that when we die, our body dies, but we are still alive with God. Our bodies will be rejoined to our soul and spirit when we are resurrected and then we will be made complete (whole, perfected) for eternity.
JESUS left so clear, saying: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matthew 28:18
So, in this current millennium, the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day, the LORD's Day, all things in whole world are under JESUS's control, nothing random happens, understand?
Matthew 25:31-34 and 41&46
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels(true believers- Luke 20:35-36.Take a look) with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another(this will be literally be fulfilled from now on), as a shepherd divideth His sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ( Revelation 11:15-18. Take a look.)
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels(messengers):
46 And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into life ETERNAL.
The EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT was previously determined to start in this current time, precisely in this beginning of the seventh and last millennium, so it will NEVER END from now on, it's for EVER.
When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the DESOLATION thereof is nigh. Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in these days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and WRATH upon the people. These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory- Luke 21:26-27.
May I add a little bit of my understanding to your understanding, which are parallel to each other.
We are taught by God, the Spirit of truth and life that gives us existence.
God is Spirit, invisible, yet he wants to be known and seen, so he created a BODY, and he called that MAN Christ (Adam) the beginning of creation.
Through that MAN, Christ. he does ALL THE WORKS of the Almighty God, so truth and life CAN BE SEEN.
Christ can appear in a body of flesh, or he can be the SPIRIT of prophecy, he is omnipresent as is his Father.
We cannot exist without the SPIRIT of God, through Christ, giving us LIFE, just as Christ, a BODY, cannot exist without the Spirit of his Father giving him LIFE.
Christ commended HIS Spirit, the Spirit of HIS Father back to God who gave him LIFE, thus his body DIED on the cross, for the SALVATION of God's creation.
When God put his Spirit back into Christ he RESURRECTED all creation ANEW, the IMAGE of GOD, the body of Christ.
When we are MATURE in the TRUTH and LIFE of God, Christ will sent his angels to harvest us, in the twinkling of an eye we will PUT ON CHRIST, the express IMAGE and GLORY of GOD.
Christ told his disciples I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, there will you be also.
At present Christ is indwelling creation revealing the KINGDOM of God to creation.
Isaiah 63:9 ...and the ANGEL of HIS presence SAVED them ....
Colossians 1:27 ... thist mystery .... CHRIST IN YOU ......
That where I am ye may be also.
Revelation 10:11 ... Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATION, BAPTIZING in the NAME .....
His disciples never understood till pentecost that they would not be able to TEACH ALL NATION, until they had been harvested and become the express IMAGE and Glory of God, all by the WORKS of Christ RESURRECTION.
The Word is from everlasting to everlasting, He has not begining nor ending. JESUS is the begining. The Word is GOD-John1:1-, The same was in the beginning -was in JESUS-with GOD- John 1:2. As said the angel of the Lord -John the Baptist - "No man hath seen GOD at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared Him". Isaiah 9:6 - Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. JESUS said: I and my Father are One( John 10:30), and All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth- Matthew 28:18.
Who knows GOD? Who knows JESUS? Even JESUS Himself said: No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him- Matthew 11:27. It's it.
Now,in the beginning of this seventh and last millennium or seventh and las Day,the Lord's Day,who is in the command of the history is JESUS,nothing will random happen,as He said: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth- Matthew 28:18. By the way, He is the heir of the Earth. JESUS prophesied, saying to the Jews: - Matthew 5:43-47 -->43 I am come in my Father's name,and ye receive me not: if ANOTHER(AN IMPOSTOR/A FALSE MESSIAH)shall come in his own name,him ye will receive.
That said, the manifestation of false Messiah should happen in this decade but before 2030, and FIRST he will give his Power, and his Seat (in Jerusalem), and great Authority to the MAN Beast of sea established by him in Rome, and it for forty and two months-the FIRST half of the last week, week 70th- Revelation 13:5-, and JERUSALEM, the hly city, will be / is given unto the Gentiles, and the holy city shall they tread under foot 42 months- Revelation 11:2. JESUS warned: Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled- Luke 21:24.
The fullness of Gentiles ENDS in the middle of the last week, week 70th, and then the Abomination of Desolation set up. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth(Israel-the clay, the dry land) and of the sea!(the Gentile nations) for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Daniel 12:10-12
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Rev.16:15
Behold,I come as a thief.Blessed is he that watcheth,and keepeth his garments,lest he walk naked,and they see his shame.
Part 2.
We are not joined with those outside the body of Christ so, what are we as children of light supposed to do in a lost dark world?
We are to bare light and that light is supposed to shine on Christ.
We are his ambassadors in a foreign land.
We are to display the work of Christ in our lives and the evidence of a new birth bearing fruit. By this all people will know we are his disciples, and the fruit (especially Love for the Brothern) will also Distinguish between a false teaching religion/teachers and spirit filled believers where the spirit gathers and energizes. This is the operation of God by the baptism of the Holy spirit.
SCRIPTURE REFERENCES; John 13:34-35, Matthew 7:16-20. 1 1John 4:20-21, If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
We are to Love the unbeliever, witness to them, and treat them with kindness and help them in a Godly way.
So, in what ways we are not to be unequally yoked with them? Many things can be mentioned but I won't get into that here.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
"The command implies that a great difference exists between a believer and an unbeliever. Generally speaking, the motivations, goals, and methods of a Christian are incompatible with those of an unbeliever.
Faith changes the character of a person. A Christian's highest ambition in life is to glorify the Lord Jesus and please Him in all things; an unbeliever is, at best, indifferent to such goals. "
Again, don't get me wrong here, we are called to minister to them in particular.
That is the Lords Commission. Luke 4:18.
It is our Great Commission to spread the Gospel; Matthew 28:16-20.
We do that with truth! We don't do it with lies and deception.
How should Christian treat one another?
See part 3.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord JESUS shall be REVEALED from heaven with His mighty angels, (for example, Michael. Daniel 12:1-3 combined with Revelation 12)
8 In FLAMING FIRE taking vengeance on them that know not GOD( Matthew 11:27), and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be PUNISHED with everlasting destruction( Revelation 11:18) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His Power( Matthew 28:18);
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe...in this day. (The last Day, the seventh and last Day-this Day just arrived-, or seventh and last millennium)
1John 2:28 - And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Isaiah 33:10-14
10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, ye that are far off(Gentile peoples), what I have done; and, ye that are near(Jewish people), acknowledge my might.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the DEVOURING FIRE? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? -> Hebrews 12:29- For our GOD is a consuming fire.
The Word is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?
My post yesterday discussed Christ as firstfruits; specifically that raised from the dead. HIs uniqueness includes the following:
Being God in the flesh. This makes Him superior to all of His creation whether man or angels. Yet He had to be made a little lower than the angels to live vicariously that is in our place yet suffer all things as we do without sin. Hebrews enlightens us on this subject in many places and I would suggest studying the entire book as I did a few years back with a small group.
Besides His sinless life; we have His death and resurrection; which demonstrated His victory over the grave and sin and His atonement for God's chosen sons and daughters.
He has a name only He knows .( Revelation 19:12)
He has been given all authority over heaven and earth ( Matthew 28:18)
He has the keys to the gates of hell ( Revelation 1:18)
He will rule forever ( Isaiah 9:7; Luke 1:33)
One aspect that is sometimes glossed over is that God can be jealous; and for HIs own Name's sake and also desire worship and be sinless. This is something that for any created being; man or angel that leads to destruction. This is why any image man creates of his conception of God is so dangerous and warned against in verses such as Exodus 20:4. That verse doesn't specifically mention God but it states anything in heaven above or earth below thus the Godhead would also be included. God can't be seen by human eyes ( John 1:18). Christ is by far the most represented in paintings and sculpture of the members of the Godhead; but with man's idolatrous heart he is led to worship these images much as he does with Mary and the "saints" whether real or imaginary ones in terms of their earthly ministry. The image of the cross is only beneficial as an offense and a curse; and is only beneficial to remind us of Christ's sufferings but also we need to look beyond that to His Resurrection and current ministry ( Heb. 7:25).
Part 3 Trinity discussion,
Do you believe the Son is a created being?
What is the meaning of created? Does it mean something that is made out of nothing? I would have to say no, Jesus is the Son of God who was conceived in the womb of Mary, Matthew 1:20 Luke 1:35, I do not think I would say He was created.
If so, when did He come into existence?
In God's plan before anything and physically when He was conceived in Mary's womb.
Do you believe that the Son is only human in nature?
Jesus is the Son of God fully human but without sin same as the first Adam, Scripture is clear when Jesus was baptized, He was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit without measure, John 3:34. All the works of Jesus were done by the Spirit of God, Matthew 4:16 Matthew 12:28 Acts 10:38.
Do you believe that Jesus became "the Christ" during His lifetime (Adoptionism)?
I had never heard of Adoptionism until now, I had to look it up, it's false. Christ and Messiah are the same; Jesus was anointed by the Spirit of God after He was baptized by John, He then was made the Messiah/Christ fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 9:25. Jesus is the Son of God conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Ghost/Spirit.
Do you believe Jesus ever aquired a divine nature in His earthly life?
If you mean a divine nature is to have all the attributes that make God who He is I would have to say no. If so, Jesus could not sin or be tempted, Matthew 4:1 Hebrews 4:15. If so, Jesus living a perfect life without sin is meaningless. Jesus could not have died; Jesus was given the power of the Holy Spirit when He was anointed the Messiah. After He rose from the dead God gave Jesus all power in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:18. God raised and placed Jesus on His right side, Ephesians 1:21-23. Jesus did not return to where He was before, God the Father placed everything under Jesus God's only begotten Son's feet and Jesus will reign until the last enemy is destroyed, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
See part 4.
As most proclaiming Christ know Matthew 28:19 states:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
As to the definition of a disciple; that would be an interesting topic for those more familiar with the meaning of the original language. It certainly involves being a follower of those with true teachings; and is a group activity. Such should be the case in regard to evangelism; but from my experience it is often lacking. There is often inconsistency if group efforts to evangelize whether on the street or in a retirement community so that the routine relationships and the time spent and frequency of appearance for the recipients of the message discourages building deep and long lasting relationships. Such relationships are the basis for further instruction of doctrines from those in church leadership. It is admittedly hard when we are reaching those who are elderly or infirmed to establish a method of transportation to church; and hence it is easier when we can find those qualified to bring a service to such a location as a nursing home which I have seen with some success in the past. The same issue; of course has to be considered for those on the streets who may need special attention that may be violent or have substance abuse issues.
As believers; I have stated before that it is helpful on the streets for example to have some focusing on praying for others while others preach. We also can't undervalue prayer for the saints who are laboring as to their safety and reaching the individuals God has predetermined to meet on a particular day.
I am hopeful that funding for church missions can be more focused on activities in local communities rather than being funneled overseas in totality. If there is a disconnect between Christians fellowshipping in a building and how we to operate in evangelism going to church won't be understood properly.
GiGi
I thanks fully of your prayers in the name of the Lord JESUS
You know that the Lord's Church is living in perilous times- 1Timothy 4:1-2- , I also pray to the Lord asking Him to help us and keep us under His powerful hands- Acts 11:21- , and He bless His people in whole Earth; giving them victories in struggles, in difficulties, and supplying the needs of each one, and healing illnesses and warding off the evils and the sickness in the among His people. And above all in giving Wisdom and understanding of His Word to all, lifting up the fallen, strengthening the weak and downcast by the Power of His Word. Amen. Matthew 28:18.
Our Lord JESUS promised: Unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance... Matthew 25:29. Amen.
May our Lord GOD bless us, and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen
You posted that ''when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the ALMIGHTY GOD (El Shaddai); walk before me, and be thou perfect".
Who is the Almight GOD? My Lord JESUS said: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty- Revelation 1:8.
JESUS is the Lord, understand? JESUS is the Almighty, not other name except JESUS is the Almighty- Matthew 28:18
My Lord JESUS and GOD the Father are One. The Word is GOD, GOD Himself, when He was made flesh around 2000 years ago, GOD called Himself of JESUS, don't you know? JESUS /JOSHUA is the true NAME of GOD.
If you believe the name of the I AM is El Shaddai you are believing the Devil.
Cris, be careful and don't fall in the Devil traps.
Part one
I thank you so much for discussing this and thank you Giannis. I am not the best at explaining my understanding.
I know John 1:1 we see it differently but what beginning makes the difference, it was the word of God in Jesus as Jesus never said it was His words but the Father's words, and God was manifested in Jesus John 1:14 2 Corinthians 5:19. In Colossians as well as Ephesians that is similar My understanding Paul is talking about the risen Christ as faith in Christ, redemption that is in Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, we are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, the risen Jesus.
I read what you replied to Momsage on this and I hope you are not considering me in the Gnostic camp. My understanding comes totally from Scripture and the Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in Scripture, it was hundreds of years after the deaths of the apostles, as in Matthew 28:19 is taken as the Trinity and many churches abide by this today, but nowhere in Scripture do we see anyone baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, what we see is only in the name of Jesus?
I know you will not agree but to say Jesus is God this verse stands out to me 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
See part 2
Part 2,
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
See part 3.
God bless,
RLW
God the Father granted Christ all authority on heaven and earth which sets forth the ultimate example of how God worked to reward the perfect obedience of Christ. It also goes against Satan's offer to worship him to have such authority. ( Matthew 28:18; Matthew 4:9).
One may question how Christ; who Himself brought all of creation into existence would have such a destiny. ( Colossians 1:16-20). In that situation; one may say that He was the Person to do the work that the Father had planned; and His agent as it were was the Spirit of God (hovering over the waters as it states in Genesis 1:2).
We realize in this that no servant is greater than his master. ( John 15:20). We all are nothing without Him; yet He will likewise exalt the humble with positions to rule and reign with Christ in the Millennium. In some sense we can say that Christ emptied Himself so that He could be our High Priest suffering in all ways but without sin. ( Heb. 4:15). As the second Adam He was able to keep from the temptations of the devil to fall unlike Adam; as well as fulfilling the law perfectly which no man could do. ( 1 Cor. 15:45-47).
It is hard to get our mind around these facts; that He who created all things would start from conception as a helpless babe and end as a sheep to the slaughter ( Isaiah 53:7); the Lamb of God which will forever be ascribed to His Name. Of course all of us who are saved are adopted sons; ( Ephesians 1:5) part of the eternal lineage of the rightous (as contrasted with the earth dwellers in Revelation 11:10).
Christ is returning as conquering king. He alone trods the winepress ( Isaiah 63:3). He alone brings forth the TRUE one world government of peace and rules in righteousness; impartially judging as many verses in Isaiah testify. Some verses can be taken symbolically but to not take Revelation 19 literally or somehow think Christ already returned in some mystical way is heretical thinking (see 2 Tim. 2:18)
A true believer does not believe the bible is mythical, which means made up, they love it in all it's truth and glory. It could have been penned by anyone under God's anointing, but He decided to use king James for the very reasons you give.
"It seems quite a reasonable arguement to me , but it's one that I'm staying out of as of now :)."
You speak your opinion and give what you believe is a reasonable argument but then tell people you won't discuss what they have to say with them. That's your right, of course, but it seems a little unfair to others here because, after all, this is a discussion forum.
DISCUSSION
Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.
"I learned a long time ago that the chances of me ever being able to change anyone's opinion about anything are almost nil , so I don't often try . MATTHEW 28: 16-20
I hope and pray all goes well with you and God blesses you mightily and I will honor your wishes. God Bless :)
Thanks for the clarification. If we already discussed this months or years ago I just don't remember, so thank you for explaining. I have a better idea of what you meant now. I'm glad you're a Christian.
My comment didn't have much to do with baptism but your comment did and it seems you were making a distinction between Matthew 28:19 and examples in the Bible where people were baptized. I would have to review to know what if anything was mentioned as being said.
I don't believe people have to believe in a Godhead to be saved. I think you were thinking that was a requirement. I don't believe this is a salvation issue, but just trying to understand the Bible and arrive at the truth. I believe that is the goal here.
You wrote: "Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian."
In the last 50 years or more I've attended many different Christian church denominations and I've never once heard of anyone saying you must believe in a trinity to be saved. Are you sure that is what someone said? This not what typical Christians believe. Can you give an example of what specific Christian church denomination and location or if it was just one person who said this?
I once went to a Calvary Chapel where the guy gave a sermon that said if you don't vote for Obama then you're not a Christian. But I knew enough to know that guy was wacko and his cult beliefs did not represent others in the calvary chapel or in Christianity. It's a common logical fallacy to generalize an entire group of people for one individuals actions or beliefs. What's ironic is Obama is a muslim and pro-abortion, which is a very anti-Christian belief.
But as for not believing Jesus is God. If John 1:1 said and the Word was NOT God, then I would find this belief more credible, but it says the opposite. Jesus is the Word: Revelation 19:13. He's also the I AM: John 8:58, Exodus 3:14.
I understand your passion and I believe you may have misunderstood parts of my post; I am sorry. Your first question is yes, I am a follower of Jesus. Jesus answered the scribe and said, Mark 12: 29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And yes, I do, but am I perfect, NO.
I do not belong to any denomination; I have attended many denominations but Catholic and I am in my 70s and there is not a church close to me now that I feel comfortable going to. John 1:1 I will say my understanding is different and too long to explain in this reply maybe another thread.
What I meant about Matthew 28:19 is in this verse Jesus told them to go baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. People use this to support the Trinity doctrine but nowhere in the New Testament is anyone baptized in the name of the three, people were only baptized in the name of Jesus not that there was no baptizing in the New Testament, but they were only baptized in the name of Jesus.
As you listed Acts 4:10-12 only by the name of Jesus and "none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. And that name is who they baptized people in the New Testament not of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian. Can you show me where that was said or was taught anywhere in the New Testament?
I am sorry we do not agree on this, and I hope this helps you understand my last post, and may we be guided by the Holy Spirit in our study for the truth, we are one body.
God bless,
RLW
I don't remember who believes what in this forum, but I feel a duty to defend Jesus and defend the truth, so I will share God's word. I feel that's the least I can do as a Christ follower. Do you consider yourself a Christ follower?
If you don't believe Jesus is God then I wonder if you believe Christians are in violation of the 1st of the 10 commandments? Because if you don't think Jesus is God or divine then you might think putting Jesus #1 in their life is bad? If you can explain your religious doctrine or denomination more that would be helpful.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
It is like Matthew 28:19
I'd like to ask about your comment, "the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
I don't totally understand this comment yet. Are you saying you don't see baptizing isn't in the new testament? Because you replied with a verse that is in the new testament, so you seemed to have refuted your own comment?
And the latter half of your comment is "...and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
But the Bible says precisely that in Acts 4:12. It says:
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:10-12 KJV
It says the name of Jesus Christ is through whom we are saved. It says it plain as day. Did I understand your comment correctly?
Also it flat out says Jesus is God in John 1:1 "Word was God" and it says Jesus is the Word in at least a couple other verses
Thank you, you are correct I believe in one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as most of the greetings in the epistles Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 and more, and nowhere is this doctrine taught in the New Testament that we must believe for salvation.
It is like Matthew 28:19 the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved. My study of 1 John 5:7 is that it was added from the Latin Vulgate and was not in the original text, but that can be debated.
I understand I am in the minority and have discussed this before. We can find Scripture to fit a doctrine, but can we find Scripture where the doctrine was taught? I have not found where the Trinity doctrine is taught. Like Genesis 1:26 there are many beings in heaven and the word us does not say God was speaking to Jesus, that is an assumption.
Thank you again for discussing this in a loving and respectful manor, this subject is deep and as long as we have love for each other, and truth is what we are in search of.
God bless,
RLW
Brothers in Christ
Has eternal punishment begun? In fact, it is already LITERALLY running. It's very hard to understand and to say, but the Truth is we have entered in the period of sorrows, a time of great sufferings and it will be until the END of this current world, world of Devil, and this until of the coming of JESUS as was prophesied since ancient time. JESUS warned that there shall be upon the earth distress of nations, and men's hearts failing them for fear looking those things which are coming on the earth- Luke 21:25-28-, and He Himself is already executing His prophetic words, understand? JESUS left very clear, saying: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth- Matthew 28:18- I think this statement of my Lord JESUS is wonderful and impressive. By the way, be sure that our Lord JESUS does not need to be visible for now to execute His prophecies, the Word is GOD, it is prophetic, self-executing at a prophetically predetermined time.
Get ready
Rest assured that as prophesied by the prophets, and apostles, and especially by our Lord JESUS, the ETERNAL punishment had a specific and predetermined period of time to begin, I MUST say that it has already begun because there will not be any gap in the transition from the period of SORROWS to the period of ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, in fact it is without a gap, in fact it is sequential, yes, there will be no gap between these two terrible events, it has already begun and it will NEVER END, it will NEVER STOP, it will be forever and ever.
Get ready, get ready"
Ephesians 2: 4-9
May we all celebrate and worship our KING, the LORD JESUS CHRIST by serving HIM as scripture dictates us to do.
By prayer... 1 Timothy 2:1-4
By making disciples... Matthew 28:19, 20
To study ... 2 Timothy 2:15
To know the LORD.. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
Any many more scriptures to help us to grow in HIM.
Merry Christmas to all the brethren, the LORD to shine HIS glorious face upon us.
December 25, 2023
Jesus of Nazareth came; in the flesh to fulfill numerous prophecies from the Old Testament of the Messiah to come; yet most didn't believe. This is inclusive of His own family members; the Pharisees and Saducees; and at times attitudes from His own disciples.
Eventually after He was risen the stupor was lifted at least for those who He had called and chosen. (see John 1:11; John 7:4-5).
In assessing the situation with the very real parable of Lazarus and the unnamed rich man; the very clear reality is shown that even if one was to rise from the dead they wouldn't believe ( Luke 16:31). This was proven by the soldiers and the concocted tale of how the body of Christ was stolen while they slept ( Matthew 28:13). It would be expected that the supernatural signs with the sun and moon during the Crucifixion would have been enough to convince everyone what had just happened; but we see similar things during the plagues in Revelation; yet the unregenerate in the end will attempt to fight Christ upon His return after hiding from Him during the sixth seal judgment.
Thus; the Holy Spirit is hidden from the world. Much as Christ's acts were recognized; many would not understand that He was indeed the Son of God. Some; as the Pharisees would blaspheme stating that the source was Beelzebub which prompted the warnings of Mark 3:29. Others such as the crowds being fed or those being healed were caught up with having their stomachs filled or earthly ills relieved; and as we see in Luke 17:11-19 only one of ten lepers comes back to Christ to worship Him after being healed. The rest followed Christ's instructions technically to go show themselves to the priests to affirm healing but weren't giving priority to the Messiah over Levitical law. This speaks to us on how we should not have fear to authenticate what are genuine healings as opposed to false ones which sadly are commonplace today.
Titus 2:11-14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
We will be able to conduct ourselves in accordance to the mind of CHRIST, heeding the leadership before us. Romans 13:1-5
Being crucified in CHRIST, and knowledgeable in HIS word we are able to go forward and carry out HIS word and make disciples, Matthew 28:18-20; being encouraged, we will go out to reach the lost, 2 Peter 3:9.
May we be faithful in our prayers for the peace in Jerusalem, and for the authority before us,
Isaiah 55:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
1 Timothy 2:1-6
GOD to shine HIS blessed face upon us as we put on the new man in CHRIST name, and put off the old man. For if any man be in CHRIST, he is a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17
Thank YOU FATHER for the faithfulness of the brethren here on this forum. Help us to be prayed up, and be reminded to wear the armor of GOD daily. Ephesians 6:11-18
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all. December 21, 2023
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
Philippians 2:5-8
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 1:3
Matthew 28:19
1 Peter 1:2
2 Corinthians 13:14
Deuteronomy 6:4
John 14:10
John 20:28
1 John 2:22-24
Matthew 1:23-25
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Isaiah 7:14
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 43:11
Thank you for your thoughts and adding to the discussion.
Yes, we are to reap; however, we are still called to sow the seed. Matthew 28: 18-20. This is because we don't know when the LORD JESUS comes and our work is ended here on earth. We keep sowing, because GOD is not willing that any one perish, but all come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9.
For one plants, another waters, but GOD gives the increase.
1 Corinthians 3:6-11
We sow through CHRIST JESUS in our testimony, and witness as people see our daily relationship with our SAVIOR. In our sharing and declaring of the Salvation of the LORD. Titus 2:11-14.
GOD bless you in your ministry of faith. November 29, 2023
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49 John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 Revelation 20:14.
May our discussion inspire study.
God bless,
RLW
Matthew 17:5] While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Matthew 28:18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
2nd Cor 1:19] For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
[20] For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Jesus now owns the show. What Paul is talking about in 1st Cor 7:19 circumcision or uncircumcision means nothing any more in the new testament, we are now circumcised in heart and no longer an outward appearence. You are still trying to preach a Jesus that is born of Mary as if he is still here. My Jrsus we know more after the flesh as it is not an outward appearance but an inward one. Your glorifying in appearance and not in the heart
2nd Cor 5:12] For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
Circumcision or uncircumcision don't matter in the new testament we are one in Christ.
Col 3:[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
[11] Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
The Commandments of Jesus = his words of spirit and life John 6:63. Get out of the old and into the new as old things has passed away and all things have become new.
May we be faithful in our SAVIOR, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, as we wait. We are called to be fruitful in our carrying out HIS desire for us. To make disciples Matthew 28: 18-20; to pray for those in authority 1 Timothy 2:1-3; submit ourselves to GOD and resist the devil James 4: 7, 8.
GOD to shine HIS face on all the saints and bless us that we may also be a
blessing unto others.
November 18, 2023
You said in your post that according to John Wesley,"Michael here is commonly supposed to mean Christ."So you are working with the supposition that "The early Protestant leaders believed" it be. And you are also believing in their suppositions and false interpretations of the Word of GOD spreading here and elsewhere what they preached according to their suppositiions, and speculations, and conjectures.
You posted that a certain Joo Gill said: "and is no other than Christ the Son of God, an uncreated angel who is 'one' or the first of the chief princes." But What does the Word of GOD say? Hebrews 1:1-8
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of THE PERSON of GOD the Father, and upholding all things by the word of His power( Matthew 28:18.Take a look), when Had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better THAN THE ANGELS, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent NAME than they.
5For UNTO WHICH OF THE ANGELS said He(GOD the Father)at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son?(Yeah, to which of the angels GOD the Father said that?)
6And again,when GOD bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,He saith, And let all the angels of GOD worship Him.
7And of the angels GOD saith,Who maketh His angels spirits(winds),and His ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son GOD the Father saith:Thy throne,O God,is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
JESUS is God,the KING of the kings,and LORD of the lords,understand?Even Michael said to Joshua:I am the captain of the host of the LORD.(Michael is a lord too)
I hope your day has gone well. It is morning here in Washington state.
When I read your post to Chris, I immediately though of Matthew 22:23 where Jesus said, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
To me, Jesus is saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive.
Also, refer to 1 Samuel, 2:6 in the song Hannah sang, "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive; he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up."
Notice the order, first death, then made alive. Of course this happens fully in the resurrection, but in considering what Jesus said that He who believes in me will never die. ( john 11:26)
And, one of my favorite verses: Romans 8:37-39
"Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
This clearly says that death cannot separate us from God.
And Jesus said to His disciples, "Behold, I AM with you always, even to the end of the world." Matthew 28:20
And Paul encourages believers by reminding them that God said, "I will never leave You nor forsake you." Hebrews 13:5, Josh. 1:5
So, to me, always and never mean that we will always be alive, whether in this life now or after we die.
Therefore, I believe that when we die, our body dies, but we are still alive with God. Our bodies will be rejoined to our soul and spirit when we are resurrected and then we will be made complete (whole, perfected) for eternity.
So, in this current millennium, the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day, the LORD's Day, all things in whole world are under JESUS's control, nothing random happens, understand?
Matthew 25:31-34 and 41&46
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels(true believers- Luke 20:35-36.Take a look) with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another(this will be literally be fulfilled from now on), as a shepherd divideth His sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ( Revelation 11:15-18. Take a look.)
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels(messengers):
46 And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into life ETERNAL.
The EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT was previously determined to start in this current time, precisely in this beginning of the seventh and last millennium, so it will NEVER END from now on, it's for EVER.
When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the DESOLATION thereof is nigh. Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in these days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and WRATH upon the people. These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory- Luke 21:26-27.
May I add a little bit of my understanding to your understanding, which are parallel to each other.
We are taught by God, the Spirit of truth and life that gives us existence.
God is Spirit, invisible, yet he wants to be known and seen, so he created a BODY, and he called that MAN Christ (Adam) the beginning of creation.
Through that MAN, Christ. he does ALL THE WORKS of the Almighty God, so truth and life CAN BE SEEN.
Christ can appear in a body of flesh, or he can be the SPIRIT of prophecy, he is omnipresent as is his Father.
We cannot exist without the SPIRIT of God, through Christ, giving us LIFE, just as Christ, a BODY, cannot exist without the Spirit of his Father giving him LIFE.
Christ commended HIS Spirit, the Spirit of HIS Father back to God who gave him LIFE, thus his body DIED on the cross, for the SALVATION of God's creation.
When God put his Spirit back into Christ he RESURRECTED all creation ANEW, the IMAGE of GOD, the body of Christ.
When we are MATURE in the TRUTH and LIFE of God, Christ will sent his angels to harvest us, in the twinkling of an eye we will PUT ON CHRIST, the express IMAGE and GLORY of GOD.
Christ told his disciples I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, there will you be also.
At present Christ is indwelling creation revealing the KINGDOM of God to creation.
Isaiah 63:9 ...and the ANGEL of HIS presence SAVED them ....
Colossians 1:27 ... thist mystery .... CHRIST IN YOU ......
That where I am ye may be also.
Revelation 10:11 ... Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATION, BAPTIZING in the NAME .....
His disciples never understood till pentecost that they would not be able to TEACH ALL NATION, until they had been harvested and become the express IMAGE and Glory of God, all by the WORKS of Christ RESURRECTION.
God Bless YOU!
The Word is from everlasting to everlasting, He has not begining nor ending. JESUS is the begining. The Word is GOD-John1:1-, The same was in the beginning -was in JESUS-with GOD- John 1:2. As said the angel of the Lord -John the Baptist - "No man hath seen GOD at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared Him". Isaiah 9:6 - Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. JESUS said: I and my Father are One( John 10:30), and All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth- Matthew 28:18.
Who knows GOD? Who knows JESUS? Even JESUS Himself said: No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him- Matthew 11:27. It's it.
Now,in the beginning of this seventh and last millennium or seventh and las Day,the Lord's Day,who is in the command of the history is JESUS,nothing will random happen,as He said: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth- Matthew 28:18. By the way, He is the heir of the Earth. JESUS prophesied, saying to the Jews: - Matthew 5:43-47 -->43 I am come in my Father's name,and ye receive me not: if ANOTHER(AN IMPOSTOR/A FALSE MESSIAH)shall come in his own name,him ye will receive.
That said, the manifestation of false Messiah should happen in this decade but before 2030, and FIRST he will give his Power, and his Seat (in Jerusalem), and great Authority to the MAN Beast of sea established by him in Rome, and it for forty and two months-the FIRST half of the last week, week 70th- Revelation 13:5-, and JERUSALEM, the hly city, will be / is given unto the Gentiles, and the holy city shall they tread under foot 42 months- Revelation 11:2. JESUS warned: Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled- Luke 21:24.
The fullness of Gentiles ENDS in the middle of the last week, week 70th, and then the Abomination of Desolation set up. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth(Israel-the clay, the dry land) and of the sea!(the Gentile nations) for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Daniel 12:10-12
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Rev.16:15
Behold,I come as a thief.Blessed is he that watcheth,and keepeth his garments,lest he walk naked,and they see his shame.
Get ready