It is thus approaching the Bible with out the aid of the Spirit heresies have come unrestrained. John's epistle speaks of those who have the Son has also the Father. Jesus defended his disciples "And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn."
Under the provision of the Covenant the seven days refer to the MOU and the Word is ultimate authority not to be confused by legal terms of the ungodly world. Holiness of God cannot deny himself.
So on Day 6 God blessed man in the Man component.(Ge.1:28)
"And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." God allowed the Man to fulfill according what they covenanted in the triune godhead.
"Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre./Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."(Ps.45:6-7)
Luke and Matthew also give the context and the quote, "And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."( Luke 6:5;12:8) The everlasting covenant is between two equals so the eternal word is the Law backed by the kingdom of the Father. In case of faith we have the basis of these two worlds (He.11:3) which we shall leave aside for the moment. What are the equal entities here? They are Power on the part of God Wisdom on the part of Man. St Paul separates Man as the Lord of heaven, from man who is the earthy. "The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven."(1 Co.15:47-48)
When Jesus was born of woman his deity was never in jeopardy since he is the Word become flesh and sent with the divine Mandate. ( John 3:16)
When Jesus spoke "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" it is this Word was God it refers.( John 1:1; 5:17-23)
Speaking of the context Mark 2:24 we have the Pharisees questioning "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."
Next point of Sabbath is that the day Seven. God has decree the day which touches his Alpha Omega aspect. " I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee./Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession."(Ps.2:7-8) There is no sanctity for observing Sabbath without the Son element incorporated in our lives. This heresy has arisen because the Christians interpret the word of God literally and assume it is the seventh day of a week. It is an error. It is thus approaching the Bible with out the aid of the Spirit. John's epistle speaks of those who have the Son has also the Father.
New wine in new bottles refer to the new creation. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."(2 Co.5:17). Abiding in Christ is new altogether because it is fruits of the Spirit we are discussing. "I am the true vine" Jesus said and new vine refers to the newness of the palate. When Jesus promised to sup with a believer it is a reference to drinking new in the kingdom of his Father. "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."(Matt.26:29;Re.3:20)
Luke 5:38-39
"But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved." Jesus assured us "Without me you can do nothing"( John 15:3) Jesus as the Word become flesh promised to drink with us in his Father's kingdom. We are new and in our spiritual bodies we are the new bottles referred in this quote. The wine is of vintage quality that is same yesterday, today and forever. In v.39 it is 'the old'.
Unlike other two gospels St Luke extends the meaning of the parable further.
39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
"No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse./ And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles."
The saying of Jesus is mentioned in both versions of Matthew and Luke.
We shall examine it from the specific, in the resistance of the Jews to him. They judged him from their holier-than-thou attitude as the people of the Law. What had the Law of Moses become? It was a treatise collated from the everlasting covenant, which before the advent of the Son in the fulness of time was given to the nation of Israel as the path to righteousness. Garment as in the Parable of the Wedding Guest refers to righteousness. So when Jesus spoke the parable it was in condemnation of what had come up as tradition. It was as unexpected as tares from the Parable. "An enmy hath done this'. From the manner the scribes and the Pharisees held on to the traditions of their fathers which only allowed them to fill up to the measure of their fathers. In his woe to ye tirade he faulted them,"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith, these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."(Matt.23:23). Their hypocritical observation of paying tithes and worship rather to be seen of men than any real change in their old selves was new. This mix and match of old with new did not sit well.
In Luke we have " But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved./No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better."(5:38-39)
New wine in new bottles refer to the new creation.
"When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Jesus as the Son of God knew what was in the mind of man. But he did not make it a point to separate man according to his profession or morals before he condescended to sit with him or sup in any convivial company. But when he say faith among them he responded. It was thus at the house he came to heal the man with palsy what struck him was the faith of four who took trouble to bring him to the fore. "When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee."(2:5).He understood man was sinful so how sinful the matter of degrees did not interest him. The word of his Father was sent out calling all unto repentance. It was potent enough to enthuse the good to hear the call and make peace with God. For example St Luke speaks of Simeon of Jerusalem who was just and devout,"waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him./And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ./ And he came by the Spirit into the temple."( Luke 2:25-27). God let him see his heart's desire before he died. Then there was Anna the prophetess. It is of them Jesus meant when he referred the righteous. They were led by the Spirit of Christ and the anointing of the Holy Ghost would come only after hid resurrection.
But sinners whom came as in the case of Levi or the man with palsy did not came across him by coincidence,- but the call had gone forth before the worlds began and went to the ends of the world; it was their faith in exercising completed the calling and election sure. vv.15-16 The house of Levi was a microcosm of the world. So many were saved as there were many who went away as they came in because of their disbelief.
1:22-24 "And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,/ Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us?"
How come the Gospels are replete with the aspect of Trinity and yet man stumble over it? Devil has set him to coin outlandish concepts of 'accelerationalism' as though an historical imperative to bring down his own house. God is in charge and ungodly men cannot know the unclean spirit that spins his head to think of his home a charnel house. This is how the unclean spirit tore down the man in the synagogue of Capernaum.
Similarly when Jesus would heal the man with palsy, his detractors cried 'blasphemy'. Do we not see it in our own times, After kicking the dog what does man say, He howls, hasten his end,'hang him',
Jesus worked so he would say,"Mu Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
vv.10-12
"But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)/I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house./And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all.
Mark 2:1-12 "We never saw it on this fashion" (1 of 2)
"And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion."
Authority of Jesus evidently came from the doctrine of his Father; and the word become flesh could say,"I am the truth". Unlike the scribes whose authority, as Jesus faulted them, reeked of hypocrisy (1:22) he walked the straight and narrow line. John testifies,"For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken./I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."( John 12:49-50) Where did he learn from? He was in the bosom of his Father so what he said and did was defining the Father inside out.( John 1:18)
While healing the man with palsy, his response we read,"immediately" he arose. He proved "I and my Father are one" and Mark's delineation spares no pains to tell this relation. "He that has the Father has the Son as well. He that has the Son has the Father also' when Jesus made it possible 'inso much that they were all amazed." They glorified God.( 1 John 2:23)
In the previous chapter he was in a synagogue in Capernaum, the unclean spirit 'cried out,"I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God." In the world of the Spirit even unclean spirits know the Holy One of God" but they do not want to follow him. In what was the scribes and the Pharisees who did not live by what they preached? Their uncleanness arose from hypocrisy a spiritual malady. Mark here takes us again to Capernaum. In the domestic setting what does the scribes say," Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?"(2:7) He was indeed of God to see through them. The tag 'immediately' in v.8 "And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit", is an indication that his deity worked even when he emptied himself.
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath./ Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.( Mark 2:27-28) So what does Sabbath really mean?
First reference to it comes at the end of the creation account. The first day, second day and so on, and is not about a week, an error commonly made by Christians everywhere. It is about a day, the day appointed for the Son. God sent the Son as the Word become flesh, so the significance of Sabbath can only be understood from the ministry of reconciliation of Jesus Christ. "By him all things consist" makes the day, which God sanctified on the day seven is subservient to the position of the Son. He is the Lord of Sabbath. Day is sanctified by the word of truth.(John17:17)
Sabbath is rest to which He has entered. It is in pluperfect indicating His Will has already settled the Salvation Plan in his core Will. "And he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.(Ge.2:2)". "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you ( John 14:20-NIV)". God exhorts us to reverence His sanctuary.
Abiding in Christ therefore is the Sabbath that works.(Heb.13:8).
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28Revelation 20:14.
Yes, this has been discussed before. There are those who believe Jesus is God, and those who don't. I know where you stand, and you know where I stand. I'm glad to know that you also disagree with both the Mormon and JW's view on who Jesus is. Many cult groups deny the deity of Jesus Christ, and also deny that He is God.
I wasn't speaking about the trinity although I believe in a Triune God. This comes mainly from Colossians 2:9. I'm not sure if there's a clearer statement than that! In Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in bodily form! In 1 John 5:20, there are two great statements of fact; Jesus Christ is the true God, and He is the eternal life!
I didn't know that today in Christianity, salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity doctrine. I stand with you when I say that I don't believe that is a requirement for salvation. The bible teaches that salvation is obtained by surrendering one's life to Jesus Christ and being born from above.
Your questions are fair and might challenge someone to question their belief as Jesus being God. A fair question was also asked in Mark 2:5-8. To a man who was sick of the palsy, Jesus said, "thy sins be forgiven thee." For that, the scribes accused Jesus of blasphemy. Their question was "Who can forgive sins but God only?" Good question! God is the only one who can forgive sins, so why is this man (Jesus) committing blasphemy?
This is not the first time He was accused of blasphemy. He was accused of blasphemy for making Himself equal with God, claiming to be the Son of God, which to those who heard Him, they understood very well that the phrase "Son of God" was the same as claiming to be God. So, they had every right to accuse Him of blasphemy, unless of course Jesus was (and is) God, which I believe He is!
Ronald, thank you so much for reading my original 2-part post, and thank you for sharing your belief on this important topic. Blessings to you also!
Christ did not make atonement for sin to give us whole bodies, as many teach. That will only take place at the resurrection of the last day when we shall instantly be changed from corruption to incorruption, and from mortal to immortal. Our present bodies are fashioned from the dust of the ground and shall return to the dust. When mankind fell into sin, God cursed the ground from which man was formed. Surely, it can be said, if Christ died to give us physical health or physical healing, then the gospel is an abject failure, because each and every day, approximately 150,000 people on average die all over the world. They die for a variety of reasons, most of which relate to physical disease of one form or another. If they became a true child of God, are they prevented from physically dying? No. If someone who is sick becomes well again, is the faith of that person what healed him? God can heal, but God can heal in the life of one who is not saved just as quickly as one who is saved. The emphasis of the gospel is on the spiritual, not the physical. The believers who have experienced the first resurrection, namely the resurrection of their sin-sick souls, shall receive a brand new incorruptible spiritual body at the last day.
When Christ and the apostles performed miracles and healed the sick and gave sight to the blind, those were physical portraits pointing to some spiritual aspect. Once Christ went back to heaven and the apostles died, any miracles of that kind ceased. When Christ healed the sick, he did so to demonstrate that he has power on earth to forgive sins.
Matthew 9 (see also Mark 2:10; Luke 5:24)
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Jesus is our rest as he is the head of the ten commandments for rest sake as he is Lord of the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27] And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
[28] Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
1st Cor 11:[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Hebrews 10:[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
The Jews could not keep the Sabbath and yet they claim to be a righteous people just like the Sabbath day keepers of today, the pollute it.
Nehemiah 13:[15] In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals.
[16] There dwelt men of Tyre also therein, which brought fish, and all manner of ware, and sold on the sabbath unto the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem.
[17] Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the sabbath day?
[18] Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.
If Jesus returned to earth today and did healings and works on the Sabbath, would we accuse Him of violating this commandment?
Because that's what Pharisees did in Jesus's time, and Jesus had a response to that which was interesting. Did Jesus actually violate that commandment? No, and He explained why, including Mark 2:27. He said he didn't come to abolish the law but fulfill it. Notice it wasn't other commandments He was accused of breaking, just that one. It should be no surprise that Christians have different takes on this and it doesn't automatically mean each has impure motives. Picking grain or helping an elderly person on Saturday seems very different in severity than committing adultery. So, I think well meaning Christians who only follow 9 of the 10 commandments will be judged fairly, and I think Christians who follow 10 of 10 commandments will be judged fairly. God knows our heart.
The sabbath commandment is a little bit in question based on what Jesus said and did during that time. Had this not been included in the Bible, I think 10 of 10 commandments would be seen as equal. I personally try to honor the sabbath, but am not 100% clear on what 'work' is sometimes. For example some may view typing a comment as a 'work' and some may not. I also think that being too consumed with analyzing this if it results in losing focus on following Jesus would defeat the purpose. We are to obey Jesus, but not like pharisees. That is my opinion. God bless.
I think the 10 commandments apply- obviously the argument that since Jesus it's ok to do "whatever" is a weak argument, because that would then mean its ok to kill people, lie, have affairs, etc. Few people argue that those 10 commandments no longer apply, but the sabbath one. I don't think Col 2:16 means that its now ok to commit whatever sin you want. That's not what the verse means.
To me the sabbath can be confusing, because its somewhat tied to Jewish culture, and there are a few verses like this below that Jesus said that makes it possibly "appear" less important...
"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:" Mark 2:27 KJV
Also the people accused Jesus of breaking the sabbath like by healing people, etc. Jesus's answer:
"Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?" Luke 6:9 KJV
Jesus didn't say the sabbath no longer applies, but he seemed to push back on people criticizing him for doing good on that day. They were extremely accusatory and hypocritical and Jesus tried to clarify what the sabbath was for, that its ok to do good, and to put the Pharisees in their place. That is my current short interpretation.
The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! ( Luke 7:34).
And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. ( Luke 15:31:32).
I have combined these verses to show the meaning of another verse ( Mark 2:19) which shows how with the bridegroom (Christ) present the Disciples couldn't fast but they would later on. Now of course that doesn't mean that they shouldn't fast such as what they lacked in Mark 9:29 for deliverance; what it DOES mean is that the joy of being present with the Lord when they were communing together resulted in enjoying meals together; like the Prodigal Son should have had with his father and restored brother.
Since we normally don't have "love feasts" together ( 1 Cor. 11:20-34) it may be a foreign concept but probably should be present in churches today or would often be a helpful concept. Nonetheless; for purposes here let us just refer to any communal meals we partake with our brothers and sisters in the Lord. IF; and I say that emphatically we are ever to imbibe in alcoholic beverages it should be to enjoy the celebration with family or trusted friends and of course praise and worship of God.
We also; of course have to abstain if we or anyone else present is known to have a problem with drinking.
The company we keep also in Christ's example was NOT swaying Him to sin but the Lord was clearly in charge of conversations.
I previously mentioned the lambasting Christ did to the Pharisees when they invited Him over for a meal; that happened more than once but never as clearly as in Luke 11; and Matthew 23. He certainly would be perceived as a most rude houseguest!!!!
We all like Paul have times of plenty and want; feasting and fasting more or less.
The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath ( Matt. 12:8; also in Mark 2:28). This would legitimize commemoration of Christ on Sunday as the early church seemed to do. Naturally; we need to take seriously devoting time on Sunday as a day of rest if it is a substitute for the O.T. law; however being that we aren't to follow things dogmatically as Colossians 2:16 or Galatians 4:10-11 suggest it is clear that in the Age of Grace there is some latitude there. Also; it is the attitude of the hearts that dictates what would be necessary work as Matthew 12:11 indicates in the example of saving an animal from a ditch when Christ was confronted with healing on the Sabbath; or eating grains of wheat in the field (considered "work").
We need to consider what was going on in the Exodus years when there were strict orders on Manna as a sort of initial principle. There people were ordered to collect for two days on the Sabbath eve; which contradicted the normal daily routine where it would rot and they were specifically told NOT to save any. Such verses as the example in Numbers should at least have us soberly examine ourselves and how preoccupied we are when we come together as a local church. Some Reformed or OPC churches will not discuss anything outside scripture on Sundays. While that may be a bit too strict; all the endless banter which seems to be discussed before services in particular could use some serious editing. Not only does it detract from the sanctity of the fellowship but it keeps those needing prayer from expressing those needs; as well as squelching opportunities to offer prayers over the cacaphony. An attitude of prayer; as well as discussing the Word and God's attributes should be something the Pastor and Elders motivate people to do. A swift rebuke once in a while in convicting messages on that subject would probably be in order as well. Knowing how deep a conversation can go can quickly determine those who God has led to Disciple us or not
Here are my comments on the scripture you presented.
Jeremiah 31:33: God will put his Laws in our heart and minds. These would be the same 10 Commandments/Laws as well as the additional emphasis on those commands that Jesus added along with the additional Love your nieghbor command. John 13:34
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
Ecclesiastes 12:13: I think we agree for the most part that Gentiles have in fact received God's laws by by accepting the Gospel of Jesus Christ and becoming heirs of Abraham, and not only the original 10 but also the additional more comprehensive laws as discussed and clarified by Christ.
Mark 2:27: Yes, Jesus was talking to the Jews/Pharisees about the Sabbath, but now that we are Heirs of Abraham these laws also apply to us. I know we differ on this, but this is my belief based on scripture. Jesus was also talking to the Jews about the Gospel of the Kingdom but then gave it to the rest of the world, so all that believe become the heirs of Abraham/Israel.
And Revelation chapter 22: I agree that this Chapter is Jesus speaking to John, but I believe that Jesus is speaking of all the Commandments including His, and His Fathers - not just Jesus commandments that you referred. Also, hoping we both agree that Jesus is God and so then when Jesus states commandments - He is referring to all Commandments. I also do agree it is His Spirit that promotes us to willfully follow His commandments.
Regarding Romans 8:1-4 I'll reiterate the same comments I made to Giannis above. I agree that if we are Saved/Reborn Christians living our lives in conjunction with God's Holy Sprit that indeed is sufficient to receive salvation per the scripture. Very important: If, we are living by the Sprit we will be embracing God's/Jesus Commandments as the Spirit will certainly be directing us to do so, via God writing His laws in our body and mind.
Thanks Bro. Dan for re-posting that previous comment. Looking at it more closely, these are my observances/responses.
Jeremiah 31:33: this is a new covenant with Israel that the LORD makes, where His Commandments are no longer on a tablet of stone but His Laws written upon their hearts. How does the LORD do this? Is it the same Ten Commandments now impressed deeply in their hearts or by the aid of the Spirit, enabling Israel to know ALL of His Commandments & have the power to obey them, which they didn't have before & with their eyes darkened? Romans 11:7-11.
Ecclesiastes 12:13: the Preacher writes about fearing God & keeping His Commandments. "Man" here must apply to Israel, since the Gentiles had never received any of God's Laws. But when the Gentiles did receive Christ (post Crucifixion/Ascension), learned of His Laws & subsequently received His Spirit, then yes, to fear God & keep His Commandments meant all of God's Commandments which included far more than the Ten: 'the Law of (from) the Spirit'; that 'which frees man from the Law of sin & death' (the Ten Commandments).
Mark 2:27: I see here that Jesus was talking with some Pharisees about the Sabbath. The Sabbath Day was given only to Israel, which has to be the 'man' spoken of. The Sabbath was never given to the Gentiles (Romans, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians) who were living there at that time; at least we're not told whether they were required to observe the Sabbath Day when it came around.
And Revelation chapter 22: this whole chapter is about Jesus' Words with John. So 'his commandments' must refer to Jesus' Commandments & hence the right to the tree of life. Thus His Spirit gives us all we need to know & obey; it is by Christ's Blood & obedience to His Spirit that we 'gain entrance into the city', never by the Decalogue.
As well, I wrote a little to you on Romans 8:1-4, asking for your comment, if you so wish, as this passage is critical to understanding the Church's position with the Law. GBU
I understand, and you've related your position that you don't feel the need to follow God's 10 Commandments (The Decalogue as your refer to it). You state that it is only for the Jewish People. Conversely, I truly believe the scripture solidly supports that the 10 Commandments were for all of mankind, a moral law, a law that tells everyone what sin is. When God made the New Covenant He said I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. Jer 31:33. Same Law.
When Jesus came, he said he did not come to abolish the Law, he came to fulfill it.and Jesus followed the law and I believe that he does expect those of us that follow Him, to follow these same Laws, as He states this in so much scripture throughout the bible.
Ecclesiastes 12:13"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." This verse doesn't say for this is the whole duty of the Jewish people. It says: for this is the whole duty of man!
Regarding the 4th Commandment: Keep Holy the Sabbath. Mark 2:27"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:" Here again, this verse does not say the sabbath was made only for Jewish/Hebrew people.
I will leave you with one last verse, that I believe is targeted at those of us that wish to enter into the Kingdom of God.
Revelation 22:14"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
With that said, I do think that we are to not follow the regulations created by man as to what it means to keep the Sabbath. The Jewish leaders added many, many rules the people were to follow on top of the simple rule God laid out in the commandment to Moses and Israel. We are to rest from our regular work and toil. We are to take time to rest in Christ and commune with Him. We are to remember Him. We can do all of these things everyday to some degree. I am not one to insist that others keep the Sabbath in a uniform way. Each person should follow the Holy Spirit as to what is best for themselves and we are not to judge others on this matter. Isaih chapter 1 speaks of how God hated the Sabbaths and New Moon festivals, sacrifices, oblations, incense offerings made by the priests and celebrated by the Israelites. There hearts were far from the LORD and so their religious actions were called iniquity. We must be careful that we obey for all of the right reasons and none of the wrong ones that so characterized Israel when they came into the land and also the Jews of Jesus' day.
We must have a right spirit about our obedience to God. We are to offer up our lives to Him daily through loving Him and loving others. We are to desire to be transformed to be more and more like Jesus with each passing day, allowing the Holy Spirit to sanctify us and change us from glory to glory so that we will be a reflection of our LORD to others. Jesus said that He was the Lord of the Sabbath, and if we are in Him, we have the freedom that He had to pick grain on the Sabbath to satisfy hunger. ( Mark 2:23-28). It seems that Jesus was demonstrating that we are to be reasonable about what we do on the Sabbath, keeping it according to the Spirit and not according to the written letter.
I would agree with Adam's advice above, and I disagree with Chris on this issue.
You're asking a great question that all of us should be asking ourselves each day.Based on the scripture we should always be putting Christ/God FIRST in our daily lives - not last!
As a Christian if we are not putting God first, then we should reevaluate our priorities. Whenever you have an issue like this ask yourself: Are you living for the world - or are you living for God?
Mark 2:27
"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"
God loves us so much, and He knows everything that we need to stay healthy, so he gave us a day of rest every week. The Sabbath Day is really a gift! He wants us to observe this blessed day to rest our bodies and minds, give thanks and commune with God and others, and use this time to regenerate ourselves - and refrain from our normal work day routines.
Sorry for such late delays in answering your replies.
I'm on the road and working during the week.
There's no improving on the great reply Brother Chris has given!
However here's my answer, atleast the short of it.
As for the People in the OT, they were saved by the same way those in the NT are saved. They were righteous by the requirements given at that time that pointed to the Cross.
Everything anyone did or do, whether Johns baptism or the disciples baptism "whether before or after" Pointed to one who was coming or came. And that is Christ!
As for them being clean before Pentecost.
John 15:3-4 tells us how the disciples were clean. "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Christ was with them when he went to the Father he said he would send them ANOTHER Comforter. Even before Christ was risen the Lord spirit has always been active in revealing truth and saving souls.
Matthew 16:17 is an example.
They had the Chief Shepherd with them, When he was smitten they scattered!
For the same reason the disciples didn't fast like John's disciples.
Mark 2:18-20.
As for the example sequence you laid out.
Quoting you;
"Peter said to people to just have a knowledge about Christ then get water baptised and then get born again?
That confuses me! I'll leave that one alone.
You asked; "What is baptism? and referenced Colossians 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism"...
You also referenced " Romans 6:3-7
, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.
We are to recognize this as done!
Water baptism didn't do neither.
Water baptism ritually points to the operation being done.
The Lord spoke in parables so that the Pharisees would be blinded lest they see the truth at any time and repent (see Mark 4:11 and following verses). The human being is the only species which deliberately blinds themselves to the truth and hardens their heart. This is given to man to whom God has put "eternity in their hearts." ( Ecclesiastes 3:11). There is a way; a door or opening to heaven by which we MUST go through to enter; there is no other way. That; of course is Christ and being Born Again. After all; only the "sick need a physician". ( Mark 2:17). Consider those who most often rejected Christ. These were all those who had heard the message; and mostly the Jews who knew the law and the commandments and the prophecies thus they were without excuse killing the Lord of Glory. That was made clear by Stephen's speech and subsequent martyrdom in Acts 7 and the beginning of Acts 8. Their history was spelled out as to how they sinned and killed the Prophets before them; Christ Himself also brought out these things.
In seeing these things we are reminded with a fair and impartial view of scripture in terms of it's literary composition that men by and large were going on with their personal lives and decisions much of the time. We certainly needn't look at "free will" as something that is diametrically opposed to God's predetermination in our lives as though He is holding us to a standard that we as human beings are paralyzed with our everyday life. He points out to David only when He goes after Bathsheeba that he was given much latitude ( 2 Sam. 12:7-8) and even more wives if he asked; but of course murder and adultery was not to be tolerated. God can't look upon sin; therefore had to turn His back on His own Son. However it is our sin NATURE that is the root of all these things; or the heart ( Jeremiah 17:9; etc.) But after this life ends there is no more freedom for the unregenerate to sin.
Hi Cathy. There are several men named Levi in the Bible ( Genesis 29:34; Mark 2:14; Luke 3:24; Luke 3:29), but I think you are referring to one of Jacob's sons. Nothing more is given about this Levi, but much is spoken about those who descended from him. One important portion of Scripture is in Deuteronomy 33:8-11, where Moses, before he died, gave his special blessings to each of Jacob's sons, & specifically to Levi in this passage. So, we can assume that Levi was a God-fearing man & brought up his children in like manner; though there were sins committed among certain of them.
1. You wrote "or something that actually IS caused by demons;"
We should be extremely careful and avoid call a "healing" as something done by a demon, isn't that what the Pharisees were saying about Jesus? There is always the danger of blaspheming the Holly Spirit. It is better to say that a healing may be fake rather than it is caused by demons. The latter is risky.
2. You wrote "It is important to remember also that Christ would tell many especially early on in His ministry NOT to tell anyone who He was." What was the reason for that? One (maybe not the only one) is stated in Mark 2:45. "But he(the man who was healed) went out, and began to publish it much, and to blaze abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus COULD NO MORE OPENLY ENTER INTO A CITY, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter."
And when the scribes and Pharisees saw (Jesus) eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
If you're a Holy Joe, and a self righteous hip, this bothers you ! to be around common people, or someone who is not converted whereby the purpose of a Christian is to plant seeds to a person who Is a sinner, seeds of truth to a Child of God, those believers who may be on the wrong track whereby they Can see that truth, and Gain that knowledge, and Be touched by The Almighty, it's what Christianity is all about, it's spreading the good word, the gospel, the good news, we musn't send them away or cast them out, who else is going to help them?
The verse "the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" ( Matthew 12:8) does seem to show that there is a justification for it to now be the day of rest and worship. We see evidence elsewhere of disciples meeting the "first day of the week" in Acts 15:30 and 20:7. Collections are also to be made on that day according to 1 Corinthians 16:9; but in that case it seemed to be specifically for Paul and it doesn't seem to indicate that was when they would always fellowship together. Colossians 2:16 could also relate to not disputing when we meet together. It doesn't seem any demand is to meet on Sunday; and Messianic Jews still do so on Saturday.
The verse about the Sabbath being made for man indicates that there is a superior principle involved. Namely; those things called "works" on the Sabbath that were added laws to the original statute were not to be considered legitimate. Whereby; a legitimate need such as eating; feeding animals; or healing men were frequently used as examples of how those principles of mercy; love and justice were to supercede superficial legalistic practices. Thus; Jesus would quote the scripture about Daniel and the shewbread as justification for His actions and that of the disciples. Those laws that were in effect specifically for the Jews were eventually superceded by grafting in of Jews and Gentiles; and since Christ is God in the flesh honoring Pentecost (which had a significant prophetic indication of Christ's fulfillment at the Ascencion after the Resurrection) we now are under grace. We are now under a New Covenant; which allows us to fulfill the law as He ever lives to intercede for us and His Spirit remains within us. (see Hebrews 7:25; Ephesians 1:13-14). There is no Temple; and animal sacrifices hence Jews have no way to follow former purification rites. We can choose to rest on Saturdays; or Sundays as I see it-just as we can still celebrate the Passover. Obviously there is much controversy here on this subject.
It is thus approaching the Bible with out the aid of the Spirit heresies have come unrestrained. John's epistle speaks of those who have the Son has also the Father. Jesus defended his disciples "And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn."
Under the provision of the Covenant the seven days refer to the MOU and the Word is ultimate authority not to be confused by legal terms of the ungodly world. Holiness of God cannot deny himself.
So on Day 6 God blessed man in the Man component.(Ge.1:28)
"And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." God allowed the Man to fulfill according what they covenanted in the triune godhead.
"Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre./Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."(Ps.45:6-7)
Luke and Matthew also give the context and the quote, "And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."( Luke 6:5;12:8) The everlasting covenant is between two equals so the eternal word is the Law backed by the kingdom of the Father. In case of faith we have the basis of these two worlds (He.11:3) which we shall leave aside for the moment. What are the equal entities here? They are Power on the part of God Wisdom on the part of Man. St Paul separates Man as the Lord of heaven, from man who is the earthy. "The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven."(1 Co.15:47-48)
When Jesus was born of woman his deity was never in jeopardy since he is the Word become flesh and sent with the divine Mandate. ( John 3:16)
When Jesus spoke "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" it is this Word was God it refers.( John 1:1; 5:17-23)
Speaking of the context Mark 2:24 we have the Pharisees questioning "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."
Next point of Sabbath is that the day Seven. God has decree the day which touches his Alpha Omega aspect. " I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee./Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession."(Ps.2:7-8) There is no sanctity for observing Sabbath without the Son element incorporated in our lives. This heresy has arisen because the Christians interpret the word of God literally and assume it is the seventh day of a week. It is an error. It is thus approaching the Bible with out the aid of the Spirit. John's epistle speaks of those who have the Son has also the Father.
New wine in new bottles refer to the new creation. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."(2 Co.5:17). Abiding in Christ is new altogether because it is fruits of the Spirit we are discussing. "I am the true vine" Jesus said and new vine refers to the newness of the palate. When Jesus promised to sup with a believer it is a reference to drinking new in the kingdom of his Father. "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."(Matt.26:29;Re.3:20)
Luke 5:38-39
"But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved." Jesus assured us "Without me you can do nothing"( John 15:3) Jesus as the Word become flesh promised to drink with us in his Father's kingdom. We are new and in our spiritual bodies we are the new bottles referred in this quote. The wine is of vintage quality that is same yesterday, today and forever. In v.39 it is 'the old'.
Unlike other two gospels St Luke extends the meaning of the parable further.
39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
"No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse./ And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles."
The saying of Jesus is mentioned in both versions of Matthew and Luke.
We shall examine it from the specific, in the resistance of the Jews to him. They judged him from their holier-than-thou attitude as the people of the Law. What had the Law of Moses become? It was a treatise collated from the everlasting covenant, which before the advent of the Son in the fulness of time was given to the nation of Israel as the path to righteousness. Garment as in the Parable of the Wedding Guest refers to righteousness. So when Jesus spoke the parable it was in condemnation of what had come up as tradition. It was as unexpected as tares from the Parable. "An enmy hath done this'. From the manner the scribes and the Pharisees held on to the traditions of their fathers which only allowed them to fill up to the measure of their fathers. In his woe to ye tirade he faulted them,"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith, these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."(Matt.23:23). Their hypocritical observation of paying tithes and worship rather to be seen of men than any real change in their old selves was new. This mix and match of old with new did not sit well.
In Luke we have " But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved./No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better."(5:38-39)
New wine in new bottles refer to the new creation.
"When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Jesus as the Son of God knew what was in the mind of man. But he did not make it a point to separate man according to his profession or morals before he condescended to sit with him or sup in any convivial company. But when he say faith among them he responded. It was thus at the house he came to heal the man with palsy what struck him was the faith of four who took trouble to bring him to the fore. "When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee."(2:5).He understood man was sinful so how sinful the matter of degrees did not interest him. The word of his Father was sent out calling all unto repentance. It was potent enough to enthuse the good to hear the call and make peace with God. For example St Luke speaks of Simeon of Jerusalem who was just and devout,"waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him./And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ./ And he came by the Spirit into the temple."( Luke 2:25-27). God let him see his heart's desire before he died. Then there was Anna the prophetess. It is of them Jesus meant when he referred the righteous. They were led by the Spirit of Christ and the anointing of the Holy Ghost would come only after hid resurrection.
But sinners whom came as in the case of Levi or the man with palsy did not came across him by coincidence,- but the call had gone forth before the worlds began and went to the ends of the world; it was their faith in exercising completed the calling and election sure. vv.15-16 The house of Levi was a microcosm of the world. So many were saved as there were many who went away as they came in because of their disbelief.
1:22-24 "And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,/ Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us?"
How come the Gospels are replete with the aspect of Trinity and yet man stumble over it? Devil has set him to coin outlandish concepts of 'accelerationalism' as though an historical imperative to bring down his own house. God is in charge and ungodly men cannot know the unclean spirit that spins his head to think of his home a charnel house. This is how the unclean spirit tore down the man in the synagogue of Capernaum.
Similarly when Jesus would heal the man with palsy, his detractors cried 'blasphemy'. Do we not see it in our own times, After kicking the dog what does man say, He howls, hasten his end,'hang him',
Jesus worked so he would say,"Mu Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
vv.10-12
"But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)/I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house./And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all.
"And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion."
Authority of Jesus evidently came from the doctrine of his Father; and the word become flesh could say,"I am the truth". Unlike the scribes whose authority, as Jesus faulted them, reeked of hypocrisy (1:22) he walked the straight and narrow line. John testifies,"For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken./I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."( John 12:49-50) Where did he learn from? He was in the bosom of his Father so what he said and did was defining the Father inside out.( John 1:18)
While healing the man with palsy, his response we read,"immediately" he arose. He proved "I and my Father are one" and Mark's delineation spares no pains to tell this relation. "He that has the Father has the Son as well. He that has the Son has the Father also' when Jesus made it possible 'inso much that they were all amazed." They glorified God.( 1 John 2:23)
In the previous chapter he was in a synagogue in Capernaum, the unclean spirit 'cried out,"I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God." In the world of the Spirit even unclean spirits know the Holy One of God" but they do not want to follow him. In what was the scribes and the Pharisees who did not live by what they preached? Their uncleanness arose from hypocrisy a spiritual malady. Mark here takes us again to Capernaum. In the domestic setting what does the scribes say," Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?"(2:7) He was indeed of God to see through them. The tag 'immediately' in v.8 "And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit", is an indication that his deity worked even when he emptied himself.
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath./ Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.( Mark 2:27-28) So what does Sabbath really mean?
First reference to it comes at the end of the creation account. The first day, second day and so on, and is not about a week, an error commonly made by Christians everywhere. It is about a day, the day appointed for the Son. God sent the Son as the Word become flesh, so the significance of Sabbath can only be understood from the ministry of reconciliation of Jesus Christ. "By him all things consist" makes the day, which God sanctified on the day seven is subservient to the position of the Son. He is the Lord of Sabbath. Day is sanctified by the word of truth.(John17:17)
Sabbath is rest to which He has entered. It is in pluperfect indicating His Will has already settled the Salvation Plan in his core Will. "And he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.(Ge.2:2)". "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you ( John 14:20-NIV)". God exhorts us to reverence His sanctuary.
Abiding in Christ therefore is the Sabbath that works.(Heb.13:8).
Acts 16:13, Acts 17:2 Acts 18:4
"Protestants do not realize that by observing Sunday they accept the authority of the Spokesperson, the Pope." ( Our Sunday Visitor February 5, 1950.)
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49 John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 Revelation 20:14.
May our discussion inspire study.
God bless,
RLW
Yes, this has been discussed before. There are those who believe Jesus is God, and those who don't. I know where you stand, and you know where I stand. I'm glad to know that you also disagree with both the Mormon and JW's view on who Jesus is. Many cult groups deny the deity of Jesus Christ, and also deny that He is God.
I wasn't speaking about the trinity although I believe in a Triune God. This comes mainly from Colossians 2:9. I'm not sure if there's a clearer statement than that! In Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in bodily form! In 1 John 5:20, there are two great statements of fact; Jesus Christ is the true God, and He is the eternal life!
I didn't know that today in Christianity, salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity doctrine. I stand with you when I say that I don't believe that is a requirement for salvation. The bible teaches that salvation is obtained by surrendering one's life to Jesus Christ and being born from above.
Your questions are fair and might challenge someone to question their belief as Jesus being God. A fair question was also asked in Mark 2:5-8. To a man who was sick of the palsy, Jesus said, "thy sins be forgiven thee." For that, the scribes accused Jesus of blasphemy. Their question was "Who can forgive sins but God only?" Good question! God is the only one who can forgive sins, so why is this man (Jesus) committing blasphemy?
This is not the first time He was accused of blasphemy. He was accused of blasphemy for making Himself equal with God, claiming to be the Son of God, which to those who heard Him, they understood very well that the phrase "Son of God" was the same as claiming to be God. So, they had every right to accuse Him of blasphemy, unless of course Jesus was (and is) God, which I believe He is!
Ronald, thank you so much for reading my original 2-part post, and thank you for sharing your belief on this important topic. Blessings to you also!
Christ did not make atonement for sin to give us whole bodies, as many teach. That will only take place at the resurrection of the last day when we shall instantly be changed from corruption to incorruption, and from mortal to immortal. Our present bodies are fashioned from the dust of the ground and shall return to the dust. When mankind fell into sin, God cursed the ground from which man was formed. Surely, it can be said, if Christ died to give us physical health or physical healing, then the gospel is an abject failure, because each and every day, approximately 150,000 people on average die all over the world. They die for a variety of reasons, most of which relate to physical disease of one form or another. If they became a true child of God, are they prevented from physically dying? No. If someone who is sick becomes well again, is the faith of that person what healed him? God can heal, but God can heal in the life of one who is not saved just as quickly as one who is saved. The emphasis of the gospel is on the spiritual, not the physical. The believers who have experienced the first resurrection, namely the resurrection of their sin-sick souls, shall receive a brand new incorruptible spiritual body at the last day.
When Christ and the apostles performed miracles and healed the sick and gave sight to the blind, those were physical portraits pointing to some spiritual aspect. Once Christ went back to heaven and the apostles died, any miracles of that kind ceased. When Christ healed the sick, he did so to demonstrate that he has power on earth to forgive sins.
Matthew 9 (see also Mark 2:10; Luke 5:24)
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Continued in part 4
Mark 2:27] And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
[28] Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
1st Cor 11:[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Hebrews 10:[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
The Jews could not keep the Sabbath and yet they claim to be a righteous people just like the Sabbath day keepers of today, the pollute it.
Nehemiah 13:[15] In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals.
[16] There dwelt men of Tyre also therein, which brought fish, and all manner of ware, and sold on the sabbath unto the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem.
[17] Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the sabbath day?
[18] Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.
Because that's what Pharisees did in Jesus's time, and Jesus had a response to that which was interesting. Did Jesus actually violate that commandment? No, and He explained why, including Mark 2:27. He said he didn't come to abolish the law but fulfill it. Notice it wasn't other commandments He was accused of breaking, just that one. It should be no surprise that Christians have different takes on this and it doesn't automatically mean each has impure motives. Picking grain or helping an elderly person on Saturday seems very different in severity than committing adultery. So, I think well meaning Christians who only follow 9 of the 10 commandments will be judged fairly, and I think Christians who follow 10 of 10 commandments will be judged fairly. God knows our heart.
The sabbath commandment is a little bit in question based on what Jesus said and did during that time. Had this not been included in the Bible, I think 10 of 10 commandments would be seen as equal. I personally try to honor the sabbath, but am not 100% clear on what 'work' is sometimes. For example some may view typing a comment as a 'work' and some may not. I also think that being too consumed with analyzing this if it results in losing focus on following Jesus would defeat the purpose. We are to obey Jesus, but not like pharisees. That is my opinion. God bless.
To me the sabbath can be confusing, because its somewhat tied to Jewish culture, and there are a few verses like this below that Jesus said that makes it possibly "appear" less important...
"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:" Mark 2:27 KJV
Also the people accused Jesus of breaking the sabbath like by healing people, etc. Jesus's answer:
"Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?" Luke 6:9 KJV
Jesus didn't say the sabbath no longer applies, but he seemed to push back on people criticizing him for doing good on that day. They were extremely accusatory and hypocritical and Jesus tried to clarify what the sabbath was for, that its ok to do good, and to put the Pharisees in their place. That is my current short interpretation.
The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! ( Luke 7:34).
And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. ( Luke 15:31:32).
I have combined these verses to show the meaning of another verse ( Mark 2:19) which shows how with the bridegroom (Christ) present the Disciples couldn't fast but they would later on. Now of course that doesn't mean that they shouldn't fast such as what they lacked in Mark 9:29 for deliverance; what it DOES mean is that the joy of being present with the Lord when they were communing together resulted in enjoying meals together; like the Prodigal Son should have had with his father and restored brother.
Since we normally don't have "love feasts" together ( 1 Cor. 11:20-34) it may be a foreign concept but probably should be present in churches today or would often be a helpful concept. Nonetheless; for purposes here let us just refer to any communal meals we partake with our brothers and sisters in the Lord. IF; and I say that emphatically we are ever to imbibe in alcoholic beverages it should be to enjoy the celebration with family or trusted friends and of course praise and worship of God.
We also; of course have to abstain if we or anyone else present is known to have a problem with drinking.
The company we keep also in Christ's example was NOT swaying Him to sin but the Lord was clearly in charge of conversations.
I previously mentioned the lambasting Christ did to the Pharisees when they invited Him over for a meal; that happened more than once but never as clearly as in Luke 11; and Matthew 23. He certainly would be perceived as a most rude houseguest!!!!
We all like Paul have times of plenty and want; feasting and fasting more or less.
We need to consider what was going on in the Exodus years when there were strict orders on Manna as a sort of initial principle. There people were ordered to collect for two days on the Sabbath eve; which contradicted the normal daily routine where it would rot and they were specifically told NOT to save any. Such verses as the example in Numbers should at least have us soberly examine ourselves and how preoccupied we are when we come together as a local church. Some Reformed or OPC churches will not discuss anything outside scripture on Sundays. While that may be a bit too strict; all the endless banter which seems to be discussed before services in particular could use some serious editing. Not only does it detract from the sanctity of the fellowship but it keeps those needing prayer from expressing those needs; as well as squelching opportunities to offer prayers over the cacaphony. An attitude of prayer; as well as discussing the Word and God's attributes should be something the Pastor and Elders motivate people to do. A swift rebuke once in a while in convicting messages on that subject would probably be in order as well. Knowing how deep a conversation can go can quickly determine those who God has led to Disciple us or not
Here are my comments on the scripture you presented.
Jeremiah 31:33: God will put his Laws in our heart and minds. These would be the same 10 Commandments/Laws as well as the additional emphasis on those commands that Jesus added along with the additional Love your nieghbor command. John 13:34
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
Ecclesiastes 12:13: I think we agree for the most part that Gentiles have in fact received God's laws by by accepting the Gospel of Jesus Christ and becoming heirs of Abraham, and not only the original 10 but also the additional more comprehensive laws as discussed and clarified by Christ.
Mark 2:27: Yes, Jesus was talking to the Jews/Pharisees about the Sabbath, but now that we are Heirs of Abraham these laws also apply to us. I know we differ on this, but this is my belief based on scripture. Jesus was also talking to the Jews about the Gospel of the Kingdom but then gave it to the rest of the world, so all that believe become the heirs of Abraham/Israel.
And Revelation chapter 22: I agree that this Chapter is Jesus speaking to John, but I believe that Jesus is speaking of all the Commandments including His, and His Fathers - not just Jesus commandments that you referred. Also, hoping we both agree that Jesus is God and so then when Jesus states commandments - He is referring to all Commandments. I also do agree it is His Spirit that promotes us to willfully follow His commandments.
Regarding Romans 8:1-4 I'll reiterate the same comments I made to Giannis above. I agree that if we are Saved/Reborn Christians living our lives in conjunction with God's Holy Sprit that indeed is sufficient to receive salvation per the scripture. Very important: If, we are living by the Sprit we will be embracing God's/Jesus Commandments as the Spirit will certainly be directing us to do so, via God writing His laws in our body and mind.
GBU
Jeremiah 31:33: this is a new covenant with Israel that the LORD makes, where His Commandments are no longer on a tablet of stone but His Laws written upon their hearts. How does the LORD do this? Is it the same Ten Commandments now impressed deeply in their hearts or by the aid of the Spirit, enabling Israel to know ALL of His Commandments & have the power to obey them, which they didn't have before & with their eyes darkened? Romans 11:7-11.
Ecclesiastes 12:13: the Preacher writes about fearing God & keeping His Commandments. "Man" here must apply to Israel, since the Gentiles had never received any of God's Laws. But when the Gentiles did receive Christ (post Crucifixion/Ascension), learned of His Laws & subsequently received His Spirit, then yes, to fear God & keep His Commandments meant all of God's Commandments which included far more than the Ten: 'the Law of (from) the Spirit'; that 'which frees man from the Law of sin & death' (the Ten Commandments).
Mark 2:27: I see here that Jesus was talking with some Pharisees about the Sabbath. The Sabbath Day was given only to Israel, which has to be the 'man' spoken of. The Sabbath was never given to the Gentiles (Romans, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians) who were living there at that time; at least we're not told whether they were required to observe the Sabbath Day when it came around.
And Revelation chapter 22: this whole chapter is about Jesus' Words with John. So 'his commandments' must refer to Jesus' Commandments & hence the right to the tree of life. Thus His Spirit gives us all we need to know & obey; it is by Christ's Blood & obedience to His Spirit that we 'gain entrance into the city', never by the Decalogue.
As well, I wrote a little to you on Romans 8:1-4, asking for your comment, if you so wish, as this passage is critical to understanding the Church's position with the Law. GBU
I understand, and you've related your position that you don't feel the need to follow God's 10 Commandments (The Decalogue as your refer to it). You state that it is only for the Jewish People. Conversely, I truly believe the scripture solidly supports that the 10 Commandments were for all of mankind, a moral law, a law that tells everyone what sin is. When God made the New Covenant He said I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. Jer 31:33. Same Law.
When Jesus came, he said he did not come to abolish the Law, he came to fulfill it.and Jesus followed the law and I believe that he does expect those of us that follow Him, to follow these same Laws, as He states this in so much scripture throughout the bible.
Ecclesiastes 12:13"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." This verse doesn't say for this is the whole duty of the Jewish people. It says: for this is the whole duty of man!
Regarding the 4th Commandment: Keep Holy the Sabbath. Mark 2:27"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:" Here again, this verse does not say the sabbath was made only for Jewish/Hebrew people.
I will leave you with one last verse, that I believe is targeted at those of us that wish to enter into the Kingdom of God.
Revelation 22:14"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
GBU
Part 2
With that said, I do think that we are to not follow the regulations created by man as to what it means to keep the Sabbath. The Jewish leaders added many, many rules the people were to follow on top of the simple rule God laid out in the commandment to Moses and Israel. We are to rest from our regular work and toil. We are to take time to rest in Christ and commune with Him. We are to remember Him. We can do all of these things everyday to some degree. I am not one to insist that others keep the Sabbath in a uniform way. Each person should follow the Holy Spirit as to what is best for themselves and we are not to judge others on this matter. Isaih chapter 1 speaks of how God hated the Sabbaths and New Moon festivals, sacrifices, oblations, incense offerings made by the priests and celebrated by the Israelites. There hearts were far from the LORD and so their religious actions were called iniquity. We must be careful that we obey for all of the right reasons and none of the wrong ones that so characterized Israel when they came into the land and also the Jews of Jesus' day.
We must have a right spirit about our obedience to God. We are to offer up our lives to Him daily through loving Him and loving others. We are to desire to be transformed to be more and more like Jesus with each passing day, allowing the Holy Spirit to sanctify us and change us from glory to glory so that we will be a reflection of our LORD to others. Jesus said that He was the Lord of the Sabbath, and if we are in Him, we have the freedom that He had to pick grain on the Sabbath to satisfy hunger. ( Mark 2:23-28). It seems that Jesus was demonstrating that we are to be reasonable about what we do on the Sabbath, keeping it according to the Spirit and not according to the written letter.
I would agree with Adam's advice above, and I disagree with Chris on this issue.
You're asking a great question that all of us should be asking ourselves each day.Based on the scripture we should always be putting Christ/God FIRST in our daily lives - not last!
As a Christian if we are not putting God first, then we should reevaluate our priorities. Whenever you have an issue like this ask yourself: Are you living for the world - or are you living for God?
Mark 2:27
"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"
God loves us so much, and He knows everything that we need to stay healthy, so he gave us a day of rest every week. The Sabbath Day is really a gift! He wants us to observe this blessed day to rest our bodies and minds, give thanks and commune with God and others, and use this time to regenerate ourselves - and refrain from our normal work day routines.
GBU
Sorry for such late delays in answering your replies.
I'm on the road and working during the week.
There's no improving on the great reply Brother Chris has given!
However here's my answer, atleast the short of it.
As for the People in the OT, they were saved by the same way those in the NT are saved. They were righteous by the requirements given at that time that pointed to the Cross.
Everything anyone did or do, whether Johns baptism or the disciples baptism "whether before or after" Pointed to one who was coming or came. And that is Christ!
As for them being clean before Pentecost.
John 15:3-4 tells us how the disciples were clean. "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Christ was with them when he went to the Father he said he would send them ANOTHER Comforter. Even before Christ was risen the Lord spirit has always been active in revealing truth and saving souls.
Matthew 16:17 is an example.
They had the Chief Shepherd with them, When he was smitten they scattered!
For the same reason the disciples didn't fast like John's disciples.
Mark 2:18-20.
As for the example sequence you laid out.
Quoting you;
"Peter said to people to just have a knowledge about Christ then get water baptised and then get born again?
That confuses me! I'll leave that one alone.
You asked; "What is baptism? and referenced Colossians 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism"...
You also referenced " Romans 6:3-7
, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.
We are to recognize this as done!
Water baptism didn't do neither.
Water baptism ritually points to the operation being done.
Gb
The Lord spoke in parables so that the Pharisees would be blinded lest they see the truth at any time and repent (see Mark 4:11 and following verses). The human being is the only species which deliberately blinds themselves to the truth and hardens their heart. This is given to man to whom God has put "eternity in their hearts." ( Ecclesiastes 3:11). There is a way; a door or opening to heaven by which we MUST go through to enter; there is no other way. That; of course is Christ and being Born Again. After all; only the "sick need a physician". ( Mark 2:17). Consider those who most often rejected Christ. These were all those who had heard the message; and mostly the Jews who knew the law and the commandments and the prophecies thus they were without excuse killing the Lord of Glory. That was made clear by Stephen's speech and subsequent martyrdom in Acts 7 and the beginning of Acts 8. Their history was spelled out as to how they sinned and killed the Prophets before them; Christ Himself also brought out these things.
In seeing these things we are reminded with a fair and impartial view of scripture in terms of it's literary composition that men by and large were going on with their personal lives and decisions much of the time. We certainly needn't look at "free will" as something that is diametrically opposed to God's predetermination in our lives as though He is holding us to a standard that we as human beings are paralyzed with our everyday life. He points out to David only when He goes after Bathsheeba that he was given much latitude ( 2 Sam. 12:7-8) and even more wives if he asked; but of course murder and adultery was not to be tolerated. God can't look upon sin; therefore had to turn His back on His own Son. However it is our sin NATURE that is the root of all these things; or the heart ( Jeremiah 17:9; etc.) But after this life ends there is no more freedom for the unregenerate to sin.
1. You wrote "or something that actually IS caused by demons;"
We should be extremely careful and avoid call a "healing" as something done by a demon, isn't that what the Pharisees were saying about Jesus? There is always the danger of blaspheming the Holly Spirit. It is better to say that a healing may be fake rather than it is caused by demons. The latter is risky.
2. You wrote "It is important to remember also that Christ would tell many especially early on in His ministry NOT to tell anyone who He was." What was the reason for that? One (maybe not the only one) is stated in Mark 2:45. "But he(the man who was healed) went out, and began to publish it much, and to blaze abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus COULD NO MORE OPENLY ENTER INTO A CITY, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter."
GBU
And when the scribes and Pharisees saw (Jesus) eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
If you're a Holy Joe, and a self righteous hip, this bothers you ! to be around common people, or someone who is not converted whereby the purpose of a Christian is to plant seeds to a person who Is a sinner, seeds of truth to a Child of God, those believers who may be on the wrong track whereby they Can see that truth, and Gain that knowledge, and Be touched by The Almighty, it's what Christianity is all about, it's spreading the good word, the gospel, the good news, we musn't send them away or cast them out, who else is going to help them?
28 So then the Son of man(Jesus Christ)is Lord of the sabbath also."
What does Sabbath mean? --> "rest" what gives you rest? -->Jesus Christ,,, If your not in the Lord, you get no rest, which is peace of mind.
Every day should be Sabbath day, but then there is a high Sabbath 15 day's after the spring equinox.
The verse about the Sabbath being made for man indicates that there is a superior principle involved. Namely; those things called "works" on the Sabbath that were added laws to the original statute were not to be considered legitimate. Whereby; a legitimate need such as eating; feeding animals; or healing men were frequently used as examples of how those principles of mercy; love and justice were to supercede superficial legalistic practices. Thus; Jesus would quote the scripture about Daniel and the shewbread as justification for His actions and that of the disciples. Those laws that were in effect specifically for the Jews were eventually superceded by grafting in of Jews and Gentiles; and since Christ is God in the flesh honoring Pentecost (which had a significant prophetic indication of Christ's fulfillment at the Ascencion after the Resurrection) we now are under grace. We are now under a New Covenant; which allows us to fulfill the law as He ever lives to intercede for us and His Spirit remains within us. (see Hebrews 7:25; Ephesians 1:13-14). There is no Temple; and animal sacrifices hence Jews have no way to follow former purification rites. We can choose to rest on Saturdays; or Sundays as I see it-just as we can still celebrate the Passover. Obviously there is much controversy here on this subject.