Discuss Luke 1 Page 4


Luke 1 KJV Bible discussions
 
  • Lodebar on Luke 1 - 6 months ago
    Hello All...most assuredly I hope everyone continues in His blessings.

    Concerning Luke 1:18...every time I read that verse I expect to see Zechariah's response being something on the order of " Just like Abraham and Sarah....oh the goodness of God!".
  • Richard H Priday on Matthew 10 - 6 months ago
    Discussion on Matthew 10: Near term and far reaching prophetic implications.

    When we see Matthew 10 and compare it with Luke 10 we see some differences. Those in Matthew 10 were told only to go the lost sheep of the house of Israel ( Matthew 10:6). Such was NOT the case with the 72 in Luke's account. We see there is no return mentioned of the Disciples as was with the 72 in Luke 10:17. The same cities were rebuked in Matthew 11:17 as they are in Luke 10:13-15. (incidentally these cities were rebuked BEFORE the Disciples retuned which also signifies their lack of belief in the miracles of Christ Himself if not implying their lack of response to the Gospel and miracles the Disciples and 72 performed in both Gospel accounts).

    When we look at Matthew 10 we see far implications; persecutions; being hated by all nations for His Name's sake; going to trial with kings and rulers and finally verses in verse 22:23. "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." This is a clear indication of the Tribulation as indeed this refers to the Second Coming. It is notable today that one cannot be a citizen of Israel if declaring themselves to be a Christian. The only other option here is to somehow imply the Lord came already as a Full Preterist viewpoint which says somehow Christ already returned in AD 70. The implications here are not only for the Disciples but all those who are going to suffer persecution for His Name's sake; perhaps particularly but not only related to the cities of Israel. Also the 144,000 and 2 Prophets would also be something bringing the climax and greatest challenge for Israel ever seen in the time of "Jacob's Trouble". ( Jeremiah 30:7). God promises deliverance eventually; by death or Rapture or Resurrection.

    Agape.
  • Bennymkje - 6 months ago
    Ez.38:17-18 (3 of 3)

    "A Great Army"

    The army of the kings of the east bear a tag, 200x1000x1000 These two sets refer to the period during which Satan is bound over. So latter days and latter years mentioned in Ch.38 necessitate this. "In the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword. This is different from the latter days." But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."(Dan.12:13)

    Number 10 refers to the Decalogue and Judgment of God. The red dragon had 10 horns indicating power and authority, "having seven heads and ten horns," Similarly the beast also has the same. (Re.13:1,12:3)

    The number 20 (10x2) refers to sinning against God and his holiness signifying the Son, The Prodigal Son refers how he may reconcile with his Father "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee."( Luke 15:18) Joseph was sold by his brethren to the Ishmaelites, 'who took him to Egypt,' and the sum was 20 shekels of silver.(Ge.37:28) This continues in the trespass offering. (Le.5:14-16) This 20 shekels in the case of Joseph signifies their trespass against God and Joseph who was set down as the double for the Son. Also significant is that Judas betrayed Jesus for thirty pieces of silver. (10x3) The command number 3 refers to the Son.
  • Bennymkje - 7 months ago
    Psalm 2:1 (2 of 2)

    As with man we have seen birth of nations where the founding fathers swore their solemn oath,'In God we Trust'. What we see the nation put under the greatest constitutional crisis the citizens who love law and order ought to remember what Jesus had said,"Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,/Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish."( Luke 14:29-30) This objective lesson brings us to consider the rage of the heathens.

    "Bloodthirsty men hate one who is blameless and seek the life of the upright./A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back./If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servantsarewicked."(Pr.29:10-12) Who created cultural wars based on color? A ruler who hearkens to lies surely would have learned from the father of lies. All his servants as the word of God speaks of them, are wicked.

    "The tongue of the righteous is choice silver, but the heart of the wicked is of little value. The lips of the righteous nourish many, but fools die for lack of sense."(Pr.10:20-21-NIV)

    The Golden Three in a nutshell

    In purpose is it the glory of God that I seek? God blesses us in his Son.

    2. Do we accept our sufferings identifying with what the Son underwent for our sakes? Do we learn from it to help others in their distress?

    3. Our faith in his providence is our reward, view it as more as 'the love of Christ' constraining me so faith learns from experience and it serves as the second wind to glorify his Name without tiring our physical reserves.
  • Bennymkje - 7 months ago
    Meditations from Psalms

    Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

    Rage is a characteristic of man who is void of understanding. In the lexicon of the Spirit he is morally deficient. In the Bible there are several instances of enterprises undertaken by them. The Tower of Babel was one such. Their prime concern was to defeat the holiness of God. Lest God should judge them again as he did with the old world they had the means. So it was but it would not go further. They had the muscle-power and the brains; nor was there any dearth for materials but their speech betrayed them just as the Galilean accent of Peter led him to deny his master thrice in a single night. When morally devoid what does a fool speak? In our times it would be conspiracy theories. It is thus the tower of Babel stand as a monument to folly of ungodly men. Their rage is expressed and amplified in so many sound bytes. Does it mean any thing? Nothing. What Internet Age does is what morally deficient man has set up and is of no consequence.

    Jesus speaks of a builder who set about building a tower with similar results as we have seen in the tower of Babel. ( Luke 14:28-30) He did not build with God who is the maker and builder, and not according to his purpose. In the many trials of Job we came across what St James speaks of his patience. "You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful." Here we have the Golden Three that makes any enterprise of man succeed. In purpose both God and man are as one. Secondly his steadfastness to endure even as Job suffered. Thirdly the grace of God that passes all understanding so man has to take him on trust."Unless theLordbuilds the house,/those who build it labor in vain. Unless theLordwatches over the city,

    the watchman stays awake in vain."(Ps.127:1-3) (1 of 2)
  • Chris - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Well David0921, as in all things biblical, the student of the Word must come to his own conclusions, yet knowing that not everything can be known or correctly understood. You've stated your interpretation of that Luke 16 account using the principles that have no doubt served you well through the years. I too have studied the Word, & in this instance, Jesus' use of parables, their structure, their message, & the need for His interpretation of them (at least to His disciples, when asked) is essential to my examination.

    This account of Lazarus in Hades, to my reading, stands out as one totally different to the rest of Jesus' parables. In fact, I would even place it in the same category as John 14:2,3. I hope we believe that Jesus was truthfully speaking of "mansions" or 'rooms' in His Father's House. Or, maybe He wasn't & just wanting to comfort & assure His disciples that they wouldn't be forgotten at His appearing. Now I can hear some saying that there's no such thing as "mansions" in Heaven & this message to them was simply figurative. Should we believe this account & not the other? Or, maybe reject both? What would make one account truthful & the other not? Individual perceptions are very strong based on a variety of factors that bear upon us, even when we read from the same Bible. GBU.
  • David0921 - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Chris,

    I do not believe the Bible supports your conclusion as to how one should handle the parable in Luke 16 if there is no other passage supporting the historical literal nature of the "events" described. God has placed this "parable" in the Bible to teach Spiritual truth related to the Gospel.

    The Bible is replete with "parabolic" language that is not literally historical, but figurative. For example, Christ is not a literal "Lamb", and Christ will not be returning on a literal "white horse" with a literal "sword" protruding from His mouth nor will the True Believers return fighting a literal battle with "bows and arrows", etc. This is "parabolic", figurative language.

    And we don't have to look at churches that claim extra Biblical revelation for deviation from Scripture. We need only look at the Baptists, the Methodist, the Presbyterians, the Reformed, the Lutherans, etc. in order to see tremendous deviation amongst them and many doctrines and practices contrary to what the Bible teaches. And in our day, an acceleration of departing from the Bible as their ultimate authority.

    This is why God's judgment is upon the churches and why Matt 24, Mark 13, 1 Pet 4:17 and 2 Thess 2 are now in play. This is the Day in which we are living, the Great Tribulation. The "fig tree", "National Israel", is in "leaf", but bearing no "fruit" and this will continue until Christ returns to at the Last Day.

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  • Chris - In Reply - 7 months ago
    David0921, we have already discussed at length, both correct Bible hermeneutics & the salvation of souls, both pre and post Cross. And as you've stated several times before, "we must compare Scripture with Scripture, etc, etc.".

    Here we have Luke 16:19-31, a passage where there seems no other Scripture in the Bible that lends support/complements it, with such graphic detail. In your application of the principles you've suggested, what would you do with such a passage in Luke 16, when there is no other related teaching or other verses? The choices I see are: accept what Jesus spoke, as a one-off account of life after death pre-Cross; rewrite the verse to bring it into line with other verses that speak of the after-life; or, reject the passage altogether & read it as just another story/parable of Jesus that isn't intended to describe a real-life event.

    To use your principle, that there 'must be other Scriptures relating to each other so as to form a belief/doctrine', I would reject that passage & never refer to it at all. I wouldn't even quote it as a parable, as it doesn't fulfil the definition of a parable. Therefore, not wanting to take such a drastic action, I'm forced to do something else with the passage; and that 'something' is to accept Jesus' Words as Truth & the events declared as real, since I won't accept that Jesus was intentionally deceptive when speaking about the fate of certain people for the purposes of a sharing a story/parable. But you're right about a 'divergence of doctrines by the churches'; just look at the LDS Church & 1 Corinthians 15:29: this is an example of a major departure from the Truth.

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  • Chris - In Reply - 7 months ago
    That's fine David0921. I don't believe I'm imposing any limitations - just reiterating Jesus' Own Words of what takes place (or, could take place) in the underworld pre-Cross. For me, even if there's no other Scripture that speaks of such an environment existing (for then the writer must have either gone there himself or had an explicit instruction from God to proclaim it), then even that one verse that speaks of it must at least cause the reader to consider the Truth & reality of it.

    Yet, it remains the reader's choice, as do the many verses that show the Deity of Christ or of everlasting torment (& other Truths), that some folk can somehow explain them away to justify their belief or from Church teaching. So if a lesson as the one in Luke 16 is not taught anywhere else in the Word & is therefore relegated to join the list of simple parables as a result, then I believe we do great disservice to God's Word, and in this case, Jesus' specific teaching of life in Hades must either be scratched out or re-translated to suit our belief. And I'm sorry, I'm simply not prepared to approach God's Word in this way.
  • Chris - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Hi David 0921. I agree with you that raising of Lazarus from the dead was "an actual historical event". And yes, not only from actual defined parables, but also from such real-life events as this one, there are lessons to be learned.

    However, with the Luke 16:19-31 account I simply cannot accept it as a 'non-literal historical event'. You mention that "no one in the grave has eyes to see or a mouth to speak". It is true, that the deceased's physical eyes & mouths have long been destroyed in the grave, yet in the spiritual realm there still remains a consciousness, for the spirit of man cannot die. Now whether those three mentioned in Hades (under the OT economy) had physical members or not is not mentioned, but that a conversation took place. Now, if these figures in Hades were only presented as a story "to teach some aspect of the Gospel", then wouldn't it be very wrong of Jesus to name them & place them?

    Look at any of the parables of Jesus (e.g. the Sower, the Tares, the Hid Treasure, the Ten Virgins, the Rich Fool, the Lost Sheep, etc.). Do any of them give the names or even the exact locations where the events took place? So a parable's definition is not just the Truth that Jesus wanted to impart to the people (a Truth that generally they could not perceive, therefore the need of 'story-telling'), but a parable had to meet this other criterion (of not naming people or places), or else it wasn't a parable. The Luke 16 account was an actual event told by Jesus as He claimed that Abraham & Lazarus were there in the Hades portion of comfort. If this were not true, then I would have to admit to Jesus being deceptive, when He could just as easily have shared a similar Truth without resorting to names of actual people & places. The lesson learned from this does conform to the message of a parable, but the actual event is real, unlike other of His parables.
  • Jcubria - In Reply - 7 months ago
    I think the Parable of the Prodigal Son is applicable to your question. Luke 15 11-32. He we see the father was looking out and awaiting every day hoping his son would return. Our Father God has this "agape" love for us too!

    Luke 15:20 (KJV) 20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

    Finally, he "came to his senses" (Greek, phe mi), that is, "he became enlightened," or "began to see the light"! He reasoned that his father's hired hands had enough bread to eat, "but I am dying here with hunger!" (v. 17). With emotional reasoning, he decided to go home and say, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight" (v. 18). He recognized that he had sinned first against the heavenly Father, then his earthly father! Being so humbled by the experience, he wanted to tell his father, "I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men" (v. 19). But regardless of what the young man had done, the mercy of his father was beyond measure. When the father saw his son coming down the road toward home, (1) from a distant he spotted him, as if he looked each day for him to come back, and (2) he felt compassion for his son, (3) ran to him, (4) embraced him, and (5) kissed him (v. 20). The son told his father exactly what he vowed to say: "I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son" (v. 21).

    The depth of the son's repentance is matched only by the depth of the father's love. His actions touch the heart. The father saw the young man while he was still a long way off. This suggests the father longed and looked for his son's return one day. Then, he had pity on his son by running to meet him. This indicates that the father took the initiative in being reconciled to his son.* Mal Couch. "Twenty-First Century Biblical Commentary". Marion, IA: Laridian, Inc., 2021.
  • David0921 - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Chris and Jema,

    The account of Jesus raising Lazarus from the Dead is an actual historical event. It occurred exactly as recorded in John 11. But like many of the historical events recorded in the Bible, and in particular like all of the miracles that Jesus did, this is a "historical parable" in that God has placed it the Bible to teach us something about the Gospel, the Nature of Salvation.

    Lazarus was DEAD. God makes that crystal clear in that his Body had started to decay; "he stinketh". So Lazarus could do absolutely nothing to contribute in any way whatsoever to his resurrection back to physical life. But Christ, Eternal God Himself, spoke and said "Lazarus come forth". And Lazarus did rise and came forth.

    This is a beautiful picture, a "parable", teaching us what happens to someone when Christ applies Salvation to their life and they become Born Again. Before God saves us we are Spiritually Dead in trespasses and sins. We "stink spiritually" and have no ability to contribute to our Salvation in any way whatsoever ( Rom 3:10-18); CHRIST MUST DO ALL OF THE WORK, 100%, TO SAVE US IF WE ARE TO BECOME SAVED. So when Christ saves us He raises us from Spiritual DEATH to Spiritual LIFE and gives us Eternal Life by giving us a New Resurrected Soul. This is becoming Born Again. Christ in effect says, SINNER COME FORTH. AND WE DO COME FORTH. Just like Lazarus.

    The passage in Luke 16 regarding a Rich man and Lazarus CANNOT be a literal historical event for many reasons when we examine the language carefully. The Language is describing a situation which is contrary to the Nature of Salvation itself; no one in the grave has eyes to see or a mouth to speak. And there is no communication between those in the grave and those in heaven. This is indeed a story, a "parable", like many that Jesus told which were not historical events, but were designed to teach some aspect of the Gospel. But a discussion of this "parable" is a subject for another comment and another day.
  • Chris - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Hi Jema. Just a couple of points to note from your understanding of those passages you quoted. You believe that Simon the Leper ( Matthew 26:6) might be the same person, now named Lazarus (in John 11:1-6). As I understand it, the account of the sickness, death & resurrection of Lazarus (brother of Mary & Martha) took place some time before the account of Simon the Leper. Jesus was on His second journey (after first leaving Jerusalem (in Winter): John 10:22, then onto Jordan: John 10:40) when news came to Him of Lazarus' sickness ( John 11:3). But Jesus continued to stay at Jordan ( John 11:6) & then went to Bethany to deceased Lazarus.

    Now the account of Simon the Leper, also in Bethany, occurred very near to the Passover Feast ( Matthew 26:2). And we know this to be so, because after the woman's anointing of Jesus in Simon the Leper's home, Jesus' disciples were annoyed at the waste of this ointment, & Judas Iscariot then left them to put into effect his wicked act. And of course, Jesus then celebrates the Passover with His disciples at the appointed time. So the Lazarus (in John 11) & Simon the Leper (in Matthew 26) can't be the same person and of course it would have saddened Lazarus (& others) tremendously that he who died because of some sickness & was raised by Jesus, yet wasn't healed of his leprosy.

    As well, the account of the rich man & (the other) Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31) is understood to have happened after the Lazarus (of John 11) was raised to life, not before. A synopsis of the Gospels shows that after Jesus began His journey towards Bethany, He also ministered along the way ( Luke 13:22 to Luke 17:1-10). After this, Jesus arrives in Bethany to see the lifeless body of his friend.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Hi S Spencer,

    I agree this should not cause any division, we must always treat each other with care and love of growing in faith and knowledge of the word of God.

    Everlasting punishment, I once understood the same as you on this when we read Matt. 18:8 Matt. 25:46 and 2 Thess. 1:9 they seem to support it. And the verses that have "weeping or wailing and gnashing of teeth" that I cringe every time I read them. So, after the white throne judgment, all the wicked and unsaved people will be cast into the lake of fire the everlasting fire Rev. 20:15 Rev. 21:8 and they have a conscious eternal, everlasting, forever and ever suffering.

    On the other hand, we have Matt. 10:28 God can destroy both soul and body in hell/geenna. This carries us back to that other topic the immortal soul. In John 3:16 and Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wicked will perish, be destroyed, and be consumed. If the wicked are to be tortured in the lake of fire forever, they would also be given eternal life.

    The fire is everlasting, it is permanent they will be destroyed and never come back they will not ever live again. We see what eternal fire can do in Jude 1:7 with Sodom and Gomorrha they were destroyed and have never returned.

    Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    You may see this verse differently but "shall have their part in the lake" I understand as God's fair justice, like stripes in Luke 12:48. Just punishment for their works or should be said their wickedness. If the wages of sin is death I believe the second death is everlasting death, forever to be no more, not everlasting punishment.

    Just my understanding thanks again for your replies.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Jordyn - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Valswords2:

    Romans 8:7 For the CARNAL MIND is ENMITY (in direct rebellion) against God (the WORD) ....

    Most Christians are STILL under the influence of a carnal mind (Satan, deceptions, falsehoods).

    Christ is TRUTH, anything not of TRUTH is ANTI-christ.

    Isaiah 55:8 ....MY thoughts (the mind of Christ) are not your thoughts (the carnal mind, ANTI-christ) ......

    Isaiah 59:7 ..... their thoughts (the carnal mind) are thoughts of iniquity ......

    Luke 15:30 And as soon as this thy son was come, which has devoured thy living with HARLOTS, thou hast killed FOR HIM the fatted calf.

    Matthew 21:31..... HARLOTS go into the kingdom of heaven before you .....

    Hosea 4:14 I WILL NOT punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor you spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves (those with carnal minds) are seperated with whores, and they (the carnal minded) sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that DOETH NOT UNDERSTAND SHALL FALL.

    The carnal mind WILL NOT understand these scriptures, it takes the mind of Christ to understand God's parables.

    God bless you
  • Chris - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Page 1.

    Hi David0921. Just to touch on some of the points in your recent several comments.

    Referring to Romans 3: Yes, it is a chapter of mankind's sinful condition, hence it was not written TO ALL mankind, but ABOUT ALL mankind. So, if all mankind lies in sin, how does God seek to remedy that disease? We know that it can only be through Christ, but where we differ is that you believe that Christ's Blood availed for those OT sinners while they were still alive. My belief: that Christ's Blood availed for them & us, ONLY after the payment for sin was completed.

    Hades. 1 Corinthians 15:55 only speaks about 'death & the grave'. Looking at the Greek, for both those words, 'thanatos' is given & not Hades. So 'death & the grave' are understood as only that: 'death as confined to the grave'; no Hades here, a word which refers to an actual hell of spiritual confinement.

    Then to the passages I shared, to which you wrote that 'none of them support OT believers going to a place called Hades at death'. For sure, most of those references just spoke about a very real place called Hades, to which I was drawing your attention to the fact that there is a name Hades. But when Jesus spoke of Abraham & Lazarus also being there, this is where "we (must) compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down in His Word" (your quote). If we then disregard Luke 16:19-31 in its entirety, then we do great disservice to God's Word & our understanding of (for example, Hades) then becomes skewed. Onto Page 2.
  • Frankie J - In Reply - 7 months ago
    David0921

    I desire to be submissive, & remain teachable, let take a look at one of your statement of belief.

    You spoke to Ronald, & previously stating this many time as I recall

    We get our understanding of the Bible from the Bible itself. The Bible alone and its entirety is the Word of God and must be our only Authority.



    Ok, this is your faith, not mind, you know where I STAND ON THIS ISSUE, saying that Luke 1:6 they were not blameless. When the Scripture of Truth says plainly "walking in all the commandments & ordinances of the Lord blameless". along with the rest of the Scriptures that I've quoted concerning this, even giving you concordance reference which you use to understand the words of God. David, you don't even believe your own faith & your calling God a liar & you expect me to give heed to counsel such as this?

    I could go on refuting you soundly with the Scriptures & sound reasoning, but considering our past conversations, what would be the purpose?

    Souls are at stake here, whom Jesus suffer & paid the ultimate price for & God will judge His people Ecclesiastes 5:2,3

    David,,,,,,, as Keith Green song says, Your heart is hard (& is hardening ) & your prayers are cold, so where will you go from here?

    In love & truth, your Friend

    Frankie J
  • Frankie J - In Reply - 7 months ago
    quoting you; no one but Christ could fully keep it

    Luke 1:6 Philippians 3:6

    to use your own tools of understanding

    blameless!

    , ( to blame), blameless, deserving no censure, free from fault or defect: Luke 1:6; Philippians 2:15; Philippians 3:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:13 Hebrews 8:7 (in which nothing is lacking); in the Sept. equivalent to , Job 1:1, 8 etc

    Do you think, that perhaps you could be blinded here?
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Hi David0921,

    Isaiah 9:6 his name shall be called does not make him what the name is many Hebrew names have God in them. Jesus says He came in His Father's name.

    John 1:1-4 What is the beginning that John is referencing here? Is this the beginning/creation or is this John's prologue of his gospel, the beginning of Jesus's ministry, as in Luke 1:2 or 1 John 1:1? The word of God was in Jesus for everything Jesus said was not His words but the Father's words who sent Him, John 4:16 John 12:49 John 14:24.

    Jesus was the Tabernacle of God; God was manifested in Jesus, and this is the light that shined. The light that shined was eternal life 1 John 1:2. This life was given to the Son from the Father John 5:26 and we can have this gift through Jesus Christ our Lord Romans 6:23. Jesus proclaimed the Father, the Father was the Word which was proclaimed to the world, and the Word was God. In Revelation 19:13, Jesus's name is the Word of God.

    John 10:30 John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: As God and Jesus are one through Jesus we also can be one in unity and purpose.

    John 14:9 The Father was in Jesus by God's Spirit everything Jesus did and said was from the Father. This is what Jesus is telling them in verse 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    I understand we differ, and this doctrine is deeply rooted, I do not want to offend anyone. I have studied the creation of it, and it was as much or more political than Scriptural, especially considering the number of lives that were taken because of it.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Chris - In Reply - 7 months ago
    David0921. I didn't say that Hebrews 11 spoke about Hades. I referred to Abraham (in Hebrews 11); that when he died, that he went to Hades ( Luke 16:19-31).

    Here are some Scriptures for you that speak about Hell (Hades, as opposed to Gehenna or Tartarus): Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18; Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13,14. Yes, Hades is a very real place where the dead pre-Cross went, both the righteous & unrighteous. And they had to go there when they died, for the Work of the Cross was not completed & their salvation was not secured. Only the shed Blood of Jesus could save them & us - they had to wait for it & their release from Hades.

    The picture of mankind in Romans 3 (of Jew & Gentile) tells us that all are sinners & that circumcision or the Law gave no profit to the Jew. Only the "faith of Jesus Christ" & by His Redemptive Work can a sinner be justified by faith. I see nothing in this chapter about the "Salvation of OT Believers" - only of 'faith vs the law', for instruction to the Church in Rome, and by extension, believers beyond them in space & time.
  • Frankie J - In Reply - 7 months ago
    David0921

    quoting you;

    What you, and others that hold your view, are doing is missing, ignoring, denying (you chose the word) that the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement extends from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

    This is unscriptual, it didn't apply until He actually did it.

    quoting you;

    "If this were not the case, no one living in the OT could have ever become saved. Why? Because no one can, nor ever has, kept the Law of God perfectly".

    Job 1:1 Job 1:8 Job 2:3 Enoch was take up to God, do you really believe God would allow a sinner into heaven? Both of these was before the law, & after the law 1 Kings 11:4 2 Kings 20:3 1Chronicles 29:9 Luke 1:6 Philippians 3:6

    What saith thou of thyself?

    Friend, your putting your foot in your mouth again!
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Hi David0921,

    Thank you, God, who cannot be tempted of evil, James 1:13 or lie, Titus 1:2. God could not fulfill the law, flesh had to fulfill it because the curse of sin was on flesh. How could you fulfill a law if you were not capable of breaking it? We are told Jesus the Son of God was tempted as we are, Hebrews 4:15. He was made flesh for the suffering of death, Hebrews 2:9.

    2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Jesus had a will of his own but was obedient to the Father, Luke 22:42. Jesus did the works of the Father, John 5:36. Jesus was sent by the Father, John 4:34 John 7:16. Jesus did all the miracles by the Spirit of God that was given to Him without measure, Matt. 12:28 John 3:34, when He was anointed at the Jordan, Mark 1:10 Luke 4:18.

    I hope this is correct forgive me if I am wrong. The Father is God but is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but is not the Father and is not the Son. One God is three coexistent, co-eternal, and co-equal Persons.

    If I may ask. If they are three persons, who is the Father of Jesus the Son of God? Matt. 1:18 Luke 1:35. Jesus many times said He has a God and a Father, Matt. 7:21 Matt. 12:50 John 20:17 2 Cor. 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 1 Peter 1:3. Jesus came in His Father's name, John 5:43.

    My understanding, this is not a mystery that cannot be understood. God is a Spirit, John 4:24 It is His Spirit that dwelleth in us, 1 Cor. 3:16 1 Corinthians 2:10-12. God is Spirit, God is Holy. It is the Spirit of God that is the Holy Spirit.

    Paul never used the Holy Spirit in his salutations. Jesus was begotten by His Father, Heb. 1:5. Jesus said His Father was greater than He John 14:28. Rev. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Frankie J - In Reply on Luke 1 - 7 months ago
    Zach spoke out of unbelief, for he had a precedent, Abraham & Sarah

    Mary ask an honest question, what happened to her was something never before heard of or done.

    She believed Luke 1:45

    Yes, it was all mercy & grace
  • Chris - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Page 1.

    Just to refer to some of your points, David0921. My "view of OT Salvation is a Gospel of Grace plus Works". I would rather define my view as: "FULL Salvation" was not known by the OT saints under the Law. Whereas the 'Gospel of Grace plus Works' would apply today, where man chooses to add his own efforts, even the Law, to make God's Grace truly effective. Israel could never be saved whilst under the Law, for the Law (& the Sacrifices) gave no salvific provision. Why God accepted them, was simply because of their relationship to God by their election, obedience & ordained sacrifices. But they had to, like all those pre-Cross, wait for Christ's redemptive Work to be completed.

    Re: Nicodemus. Yes, he should have, as a teacher of the Torah & the Writings, picked up easily what Jesus was speaking about concerning re-birth. Scriptures such as Psalm 51;10, Psalm 51:16,17; Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 36:26 which Nico knew, should have immediately brought him understanding to the revelation Jesus just gave him. The OT saints could only yearn after such a cleansing of heart as God forgave them when they repented, but not until the Spirit of God would come (to whom Jesus pointed), would Nico & others experience that spiritual re-birth.

    My great emphasis on the Luke 16 account is because I don't regard it as a parable. I've written before on this: that a parable (as Jesus gave), were simple, everyday stories that gave a view of Kingdom Life & God's Requirements. If the rich man, Lazarus, & Abraham being mentioned were simply a part of a parable (a non-specific account), then Jesus was lying, for no such situation ever existed or could exist in Hades & Jesus' disciples & Pharisees who were listening, would have been grossly misled into understanding about the after-life. Yes, the body lies in the grave, but the spirit lives on; & pre-Cross, Hades is given as that place.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Hi Carleton,

    I have been reading and studying the Scriptures you have posted, I will touch on a few, by the way, great work. Again, I know my understanding may be different and I do not want to offend, I do thank you for this discussion.

    John 1:4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men." This life came from the Father,

    My understanding of this, it is part of John's prolog to his gospel as John writes, "In the beginning" is the beginning of Jesus's ministry, not before creation. Mark used it in Mark 1:1 also in Luke 1:2 and John uses it again in 1 John 1:1 "From the beginning" he is again talking about the beginning of Jesus's ministry, "the Word of life" which was the eternal life from the Father, John 5:26. This life is that light that shined and the darkness comprehended it not.

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

    Jesus the true only begotten Son of God, who came out from the Father John 16:27. He was sent by the Father, Galatians 4:4 from the glory of the Father, the same matter, and divinity as the Father, and the Word was made flesh, born of a virgin and walked among us. We see in Revelation 19:13 His name is called The Word of God. Full of unfailing love and obedience to the Father, God was manifested in Him on earth 1 John 1:2 1 John 4:2 1 John 4:9. Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit without measure.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    Will study more of your posts and reply, if you want to continue the conversation, I understand your time is tight.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • David0921 - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Hello again Chris and thank you for responding.

    I don't have much of anything to add to what I've already said. But I do want to emphasize some things.

    Your view of OT Salvation is a Gospel of Grace plus Works. In that while the OT Believe was saved by Christ's Atonement their obedience to the Ceremonial Law contributed to their Salvation in some way. And that is not possible based on everything we read in the Bible about the Nature of Salvation. Salvation is by God's Grace ALONE. It is 100% the work of God. Remember the man who picked up a few sticks in Numbers.

    In John 3 where Jesus is talking with Nicodemus about Becoming "Born Again", He was clearly expecting Nicodemus, a teacher, a Pharisee, someone that should have been familiar with what was required for Salvation in the OT, to have understood this as a MASTER OF ISRAEL. John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a MASTER OF ISRAEL, and knowest not these things?

    This idea of OT Believers going to a place called Hades when they die is not taught in the Bible. I know that you want to put your weight on the story of Luke 16 about the Rich Man and Lazarus. But when we examine that story very carefully we know for a certainty that it is not talking about a possible historical event. That story is NOT a "historical parable" it is a "parable" like many that Jesus told when on earth to teach some Spiritual Truth. Nowhere does the Bible teach that someone "buried" has "eyes" to see or that there could be any communication with Abraham who is in Heaven. The Bible just absolutely does not teach that. Nor does the Bible anywhere teach that OT Believers go to a place called Hades when they die.

    So, forgive me for being so bold and presumptuous, but it seems to me that your Dispensational view of the Scriptures forces you into an understanding of God's Judgment and Salvation Plan for Mankind that is complex and convoluted. And prevents you from seeing the consistency and cohesiveness throughout the Bible.
  • Bro dan - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Hi Carleton,

    Always nice to hear from you, and thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    I see it as: It is His way, not our way. Regarding the kingdom, hopefully it should be residing in us as in Luke 17:21 but we must be aware of 1 John 3:28 and Matt 6:24 as well as trying to save our lives, and surely we need to Matt 16:24 and must surely die to this life/world Matt 16:25.

    And finally, Matthew 16:26

    "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

    GBU
  • Carleton - 7 months ago
    P1: Re-read some scriptures last evening and would like to write them here.

    All of John Chapter 13 ; Chapter 14

    John 1:4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men."

    Colossians 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature."

    Romans 8:32 "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

    Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

    John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

    Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory and express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

    Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknowledge, he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren."

    1 Corinthians 1:29 "That no flesh glory in his presence"

    John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

    Luke 1:31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS."

    Matthew 1:19 "Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privileges."

    Isaiah 53:1 "Who hat believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?"

    Philippians 2:5 - 6 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

    Hebrews 6:20 "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest after the order of Melchisedec."

    P2 follows


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