To start; I used to have a similar understanding of the Trinity doctrine but over time it has changed, and I am still studying it. I do not consider myself part of any group or denomination other than a believer and follower of Jesus. I feel we should inspire each other to study in prayer for the truth and to be open to the Holy Spirit to unveil the truth as we know nothing.
With me, it started with two verses, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4, I contemplated these verses for a long time, it was like they stuck in my mind unanswered. In my study of the Trinity, I found out how it developed and how many deaths it caused even after the Reformation, and the questions I asked in Churches, many could not explain it and said it is a mystery that man cannot comprehend.
Is God and has He always been one solitary person?
Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD, Mark 12:29 and as said in 1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. My understanding is God the Father is eternal He has always been and will always be Psalms 90:2. God is Spirit, if a person means He has a will, emotions, the ability to speak, rationalize, self-awareness, to have a relationship with His creation, love, hate, etc. yes one person.
Before creation was, He always and only alone, without anyone to love?
What was before creation in Scripture we have no writings or information, Scripture tells us the hosts of heaven were before the creation of the earth and the galaxies, Job 38:4-7. How long before the physical world and universe we see we do not know. God's plan He declared the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:9-10. I may be wrong, but God has never been alone inside Himself, time nor space cannot contain who He is, the beginning of His plan was Jesus.
A look at the Pre Trib rapture and the madness to come
Revelation 5:12 describes those in heaven praising God but we also see evidence that ALL those on earth will also do the same; even those who are under the earth (possibly the dead souls in hades). I have said before that if the rapture is hidden the RESURRECTION of the dead saints from graves all over the world surely WON'T be able to remain hidden.
There are several themes in scripture that this reminds us of. First the state of all the angels praising God as seen in Job 38:7.
Lucifer fell AFTER this event; how quickly it is unknown but it may have seemed to be a shock to the 2/3 that remained faithful to their state of holiness to see 1/3 fall away with him ( Revelation 12:4 shows the end result). Of course the fall of man brought sudden issues as well. It didn't take long for the first murder to occur with Adam's firstborn son. And we could see shades of the same thing at the tower of Babel shortly after the flood.
What man will crave will be brought about; no doubt by Antichrist's delusion of peace at the first seal ( Rev. 6:1-2). This is going to appear to be a great light of hope (see 2 Cor. 11:14). Shades of the peace and security now will come to the climax with the Daniel 9:27 covenant being CONFIRMED or an original one made stronger (likely what is now known as the Abraham accords).
Whatever illusion of peace that comes will be short lived as the inevitable decay of society will result in the rest of the seal judgments of war; famine and pestilence to kill 1/4 of men (which appears to all occur BEFORE the mark of the Beast).
Those who end up following Antichrist will also worship the dragon (Satan) as seen in Rev. 13:14-18 who gives power to the Beast. They eventually end up fighting God as we see from Psalm 2 and Revelation 19.
Many have argued that out of fear men will be somehow tricked or coerced to take the mark. Revelation 13:8 seems to argue against this as WORSHIP occurs.
The Bottles of heaven "clouds": it is an allusion to the girbahs, In the Hebrew its nay'-bel its a skin bag for liquids or bottles made of skin, in which they are accustomed to carry their water
God is asking Job does he know how God controls the weather!
It has nothing to do with you and I being a old bag of wine and it doesn't have anything that suggests one day we will be Gods.
I'm telling you this because that is what Jordyn is presenting to you.
Be careful! He has a way of spiritualizing the scripture and making it say what he wants it to say.
We know him well, He's been on this site for many years under several different names presenting this false doctrine.
The clouds in Hebrews is "nephos" it's used to picture a large dense multitude.
The clouds used in Job is "shachaq"
a powder (as beaten small); by analogy a thin vapor; by extension the firmament: - {cloud} small {dust} {heaven} sky. (Strongs definition in the Hebrew.)
The usage has no parallel.
Read Job 38:1-41 and get the context.
Now concerning the wine skins in Matthew 9:14-17.
verse 14 Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?
John was the Last of the old testament prophets.
He came to announce the coming of the King.
Christ came to usher in something New.
Verse 16 and 17 Christ explains the change of dispensations.
The old dispensation of law was ending and Christ didn't come to patch it up, He came to present a new garment.
We being the body of Christ and Christ being the Head represents we being baptized into union with Christ and him being Lord over his body. He's the head and Lord over our lives by the quickening Spirit that rose Christ from the dead.
You are right, the old (wine bottle) has passed away, and YOU ARE the NEW (bottles of heaven).
Job 38:37 Who can number the CLOUDS (of heaven) .... Mark 14:62 ..... Hebrews 12:1 ...... IN WISDOM? or who can stay the bottles of heaven.
You DIED with Christ, but only Christ arose, YOU were a JOINT HEIR with Christ in the Kingdom of God, Christ is the kingdom of God.
You DIED, only Christ is alive and YOU are the Body of that LIFE, as Christ is the BODY of the LIFE of his Father.
You said you want to lead a LIFE of OBEDIENCE, You DIED, ONLY Christ exist, he is the LIFE, and you the Body, He CAUSES you to do his WILL, Christ, The Body, walks in total obedience to his Father's Life (Spirit); therefore, if and when you come to TRUTH, you walk in total obedience.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is BORN of God (resurrected as ONE FLESH), doth not commit sin; for HIS SEED (Christ) remains IN HIM, and he CANNOT SIN, because he is BORN of God (resurrected as ONE FLESH with Christ).
You obey and honour God when you BELIEVE his words.
"Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in."
Jesus riding into Jerusalem is specific which according to the narrative mode of the Spirit has its spiritual ancillary. In the gospel we read, "And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest."(Matt.21:9) Multitudes going before similarly has its multilayered meaning. 'The multitudes point to the prophets as in the epistle to the Hebrews, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,/ Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,"(He.1:1-2). They 'that followed' by the same token agree with those whom the risen Christ sent "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations," (Matt.28:19)
The city doors were only one part in his circuit to the glory that awaited him. These doors signifying Jerusalem is only associated with the Word become flesh and beyond that to its everlasting shame we have this condemnation," And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."(Re.11:8)
We have another gate through which God sent his Son the King of glory to enter. God out of the whirlwind asks Job,"Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?"( Job 38:17) He is the king of glory because he triumphed over death. "Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it."(Ac.2:24)
"And this is the gate of heaven," which Jacob saw in his dream,(Ge.28:17) through which Jesus Christ went up. "Why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."(Ac.1:11)
Genesis 1:1 The Hebrew word shamayim meaning heaven, heavens, sky, and lofty, is in the Bible over 400 times and it is masculine plural. The Hebrew word for water is mayim it is also masculine plural, due to ending in im. They are plural nouns but can be dual, as the names of people and places in the Bible end in im. Translating it into English would depend on the context.
Some translations have heavens, and some have heaven but what is Genesis 1:1 saying? Some say this includes all three heavens, some even put a gap between verses 1 and 2, but what beginning is this? The third heaven is where God's throne and the angelic beings are, they were already there. They were before this world and universe as we see in Job 38:4-7 so this is our beginning, not the beginning of all creation.
My understanding is this verse is the introduction to the creation of the things that can be seen that are temporal that one day will all be made new. What I see is God waved His hand and all that is in our universe and our world was created and it all was in darkness and chaos. Nothing was formed or brought forth into order, the light shined into the darkness, light was the first day, the beginning of order that we see take place in the following verses.
The Spirit invests significance in the four cardinal directions, North, South East West which is not merely across but also up and down. Across gives us the outreach of the everlasting gospel but up and down also reveal where the living water shall go up or down. We have the four river heads in the context of the Garden of Eden. "And the fourth river is Euphrates."(Ge.2:14)
In the Book of the Revelation when the sixth angel sounds the trumpet we have this command,"Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates./And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men." (Re.9:14-15). They have been prepared for a specific purpose. It is hour of judgment. For this reason we have this expression 'Foundations' which are invisible to which Hannah alludes in her song of praise. "For the pillars of the earth are theLord's, and he hath set the world upon them." (1 Sa.2:8)
God demands answer from Job, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding./Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?/Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;" ( Job 38:4-6)
Because of this when the red dragon would hurt the left behind church God had prepared already a remedy. "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood./And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."(Re.12:15-16)
The living water carry the redeemed to the throne of God while the second group is sent to the hinter sea which is Abaddon."nd they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, -Apollyon (Re.9:11)
Nothing is hid from God's presence, "For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known".( Luke 12:2). Face in the parlance of the Spirit is simply a term to define a surface that is open before God, and implies beginning of a process, as in the face of Cain. God asks him, "The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?" (Ge.4:6-ESV). His 'countenance' (KJV) or face was open before him.
By the same token the creation account presents, "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters".(Ge.1:2). Its reaction we have in this verse, "The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: the depths also were troubled" (Ps.77:16).
From the convulsions the deep presented before the Spirit we can infer that the face holds a quality. As God tells Job ' it is turned as the clay to the seal.'( Job 38:14) This explains the manner God framed the worlds by his word. He commanded 'Fiat Lux' and consequently the things, which came to the surface were seen, as hidden depths of Cain's heart were mirrored in his face. The will of God brought the earth as clay to the seal. It is as finished as the will of God shall be complete and wanting nothing more. So we have this certainty, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."(Ro.11:29-NKJV)
Face is the presence of God, which St Paul annotates in this verse, "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."(2 Co.4:6) Coming back to the creation account the Spirit of God moving upon the waters gave every water vapor a certain ability to know the glory of God, ( Jas 4:14). Ro.1:19-20. "So we are without excuse."
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have BELIEVED do enter into REST (the sabbath), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall ENTER IN TO MY (the sabbath) REST; although the WORKS were FINISHED from the foundations of the world.
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the GOSPEL preached, as well (as it was preached) TO THEM ......
We are just playing out what has ALREADY been written.
God's will is BEING DONE.
We are JUST POTS being CONFORMED into the IMAGE of Christ. From the first man TIL the last man.
Revelation 22:13 "I AM " Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the FIRST and the LAST.
Romans 8:29 .... he did PREDESTINATE to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE of son.
Job 38:7 When all the morning stars SANG TOGETHER (all became ONE), the SONS of GOD (all became ONE) shouted for joy?
John 17:22 And the GLORY that thou hast GIVEN ME, I HAVE GIVEN THEM (finished from the foundations of the world), that they may be ONE, even as WE ARE ONE.
Psalms 46:10 Be still and know "I AM" God ......
Isaiah 26:3 Thou will KEEP HIM in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee .....
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. ( John 9:41).
In the Old Testament we see the mad Prophet Balaam stopped by a donkey who God readily used to block his way and for a mouthpiece of rebuke. ( 2 Peter 2:16-18 as quoted in the N.T. from Numbers 22-24). We see also how the demons Jesus cast out knew who Jesus was ( Mark 3:11-12). This is somewhat understandable from the fact that the angels were there to see God in heaven and witness the creation of the earth ( Job 38:7).
We are warned in James 2:19 about not just saying that we believe in God. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom; this is quoted many times in scripture. The conscience of men can be seared after some time; hearts hardened ( 1 Tim. 4:2; Exodus 7:3 and subsequent verses with Pharaoh). A believer has a healthy awe based on God's Holiness; and without holiness no man can see God ( Heb. 12:14).
Only man could see the miracles of Christ and still remain in unbelief. That would not just be related to the physical miracles when on earth; but also the miracle of salvation which often was accompanied by deliverance in scripture but which we see today. Mercifully God forgives any sin against the Father or Son is forgivable ( Matt. 12:32); but against the Holy Spirit is not.
The Spirit demonstrates His Holiness amongst the ministry of John 16:8 warning the world of sin; righteousness and judgment to come. The opposite of a broken and contrite heart is pride and self righteousness (only the sick need a physician Matt. 9:12).
Therefore such Pharisitical people also make their own twisted judgments on right and wrong and condemn others based on that mindset.
May we read scripture for its true meaning not through any man centered agenda; respecting ALL of it as God's Word ( 2 Tim. 3:16). May we have a heart to always glean new truths from God; seeking His face daily ( Psalm 1:2
Simply put; the Holy Spirit is the method of displaying Christ's presence on earth. Hebrews 6:4-8 as well as 1 Peter 2:3 show that those who have tasted the heavenly gift and other things of the Spirit as well as the powers of the coming age to be renewed once again to repentance once fallen away. This ties in for several reasons to the text in Matthew 12:31. We must remember first of all that much like Satan Himself Christ's works were made manifest for all men to see and thus nothing more could be done after witnessing undeniable miracles such as blind being healed which had never been seen in O.T. times. Also; of course the Pharisees accused him of using the power of Beelzebub to perform His miracles; despite the fact that the Spirit even before the church age was there such as with John the Baptist to convict the world of sin; righteousness and judgment to come. ( John 16:8). The Pharisees denied the Divinity of Christ and that was after all they saw and Christ saying that He was the I AM ( John 8:58). Therefore they wouldn't accept worshipping Him and His Divinity as a member of the Godhead was hidden from them. Therefore Satan was truly their God. ( John 8:44).
Satan Himself was built on pride and self-exaltation therefore was mad enough to desire worship for himself despite being in heaven and seeing God's glory and no doubt the earth and the rest of Creation therefore he was given no chance of repentance ( Job 38:7). We see singing in that verse; something Lucifer as Cheribum was designed to do in charge of worship but it was turned to evil. By default then Satan is the God and loyalty of all who do this to the Spirit; most will sin and admit God is righteous or simply hate God or be afraid (as in the sixth seal); eventually Satan will be sent for those who LOVE not the truth but a lie ( 2 Thess. 2:10). Like it or not Antichrist will eventually blasphemy God and yet all those not in the Book of Life will worship him and be damned ( Rev. 13:8).
You asked: How does Satan deceive this whole world? Rev.12:9
Revelation was written in the first century of Christian Era, at that time the Devil had already deceived mankind for around 4000 years, even JESUS was tempted by the Devil I suppose in Neguev, but Satan still had not 7 heads; The 7 heads was still in the embryo.
But now, in this current time of Apocalypse, around 2000 years AC, the body of the Devil will be completed with 7 heads, and 10 horns, and 7 crowns upon his 7 heads.His new name now is red Dragon-Rev.12:9-,and his TAIL drew (shall cast down)the third part of the STARS of heaven to the earth.(STARS? who are the STARS? Job 38:4&7 combined with Daniel 12:3).
When the red Dragon-Rev.13:11-gives his POWER,and his Throne in Jerusalem,and great Authority to the Beast of sea, upon which rides de great whore-the Roman Catholic Church-then the holy city will be trodden by the Gentiles- Luke 21:24 combined with Rev.11:2, and he will join Catholicism and Judaism(iron and clay- Daniel 2), then the body of Satan/the Dragon will grow exceedingly, but it will grow even more with the adhesion of evangelical churches whose angels are fallen or spiritually dead, these will form or constitute the TAIL of the Dragon, these will believe in the false messiah, the Beast that will rise from the earth(Israel, the clay, the dry land), a false lamb, a false messiah- John 5:43-47 combined from Revelation 13:11, then the Red Dragon's body will be complete with his 7 heads, 10 horns and a TAIL. By the way, the origin of the false messiah is of the 10 tribs of Israel,especifically of the trib of Dan- Genesis 49:17.
He will exercise all the power of the first Beast before him,will cause the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first Beast(of sea)whose deadly wound was healed.
And he will do great wonders,so that will make fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,and will deceive them that dwell on the earth by the means of...
The old testament hope is the son of righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. Malachi 4:2.
The morning star always rises at the darkest time of the night.
It indicates that the sun will be coming up shortly.
Job 3:9. "Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:
Here in Job 38:7 it indicates there's several morning stars.
"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Isaiah 14:12 indicates Satan is just one of the many.
I believe Jesus is the Morning star for the Saints, Letting us know there's Light ahead of these dark times.
2Peter 1:19 puts it this way;
"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Assurance of salvation: Corulers with Christ or coconspirators with the Devil.
It is helpful to go back to the Creation story to see God's original plan and design for man; and the results of the fall. In this segment I will look at the enemy of our souls ( 1 Peter 5:8). Lucifer's fall is covered in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. When we see that narrative play out we see where sin actually originated and the cause was mainly pride. That blossomed of course to violence and other things ( Ezekiel 28:16) which I would briefly propose was an angelic society which may have started in heaven and perhaps led to a judgment between Genesis 1:1 and 1;2 sometimes called the "gap theory". For our purposes we will summarize that there had to be some time for the angels to be drawn to follow Lucifer; as well as to some time after all the angels sang to God's glory at creation before he fell ( Job 38:7-9).
Lucifer was much like man; in the sense that he was created to worship and adore the Lord; made flawless and beautiful and in innocence there was nothing wrong about that. He was a Cherub ( Ezekiel 28:14); therefore at an elevated status much like Adam and Eve were given authority to rule and reign over the rest of Creation in a unique role and status.
The serpent was used by the enemy to deceive through appealing to man's hidden knowledge that could somehow elevate his status and bring them something more than God intended as the real thrust of the temptation. A lack of TRUST in God is where the real issue is; and that of the heart of man which Jeremiah 17:9 makes it clear is desperately wicked. Therefore; what God made had the potential to become corrupted and wicked; in the same token one who is saved is made to glorify God and destined to become as Paul stated a "celestial body" ( 1 Corinthians 15:40). There is a resurrection for all men; but one to eternal soul damnation for the wicked ( John 5:29). The wicked cannot enter the Kingdom of God ( Rev. 21:27).
The substance of the material for the furniture of the Tabernacle was different in the Holy Place. In the outer court, brass was the prevailing material since it had to do with the judgment of sin. In the Holy Place, gold was the material that predominated. This was no accident or chance occurrence. Gold was the only object that set forth in such a visible way the deity of Christ. Two objects of furniture, the lampstand and the mercy seat, were made entirely of gold.
The lampstand was the perfect symbol of Christ as the Son of God:
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. ( John 1:9)
He was a "light of the Gentiles" ( Isaiah 42:6). Had He been philanthropic and had not come out of God, He would have been merely another teacher "that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge" ( Job 38:2). He would have only added another ethical system to the already multitudinous and multifarious systems, and He would have been but the harbinger of darkness "through philosophy and vain deceit" ( Colossians 2:8). But as the Son of God, He "is light, and in him is no darkness at all" ( 1 John 1:5).
The lampstand was handmade of beaten work and was highly ornamented. There was a central shaft with three branches on a side, making seven branches in all. Each branch contained three sections, each section being beaten into the shape of an almond blossom and a knop. On top of each shaft was an open almond blossom. On each of these were placed the olive oil lamps.
Thousands of years before you, there was a man called Job, and he essentially asked an even tougher version of the same question; that's essentially what Job chapter 3 through chapter 37 is all about.
When Job had finished asking the same questions you are asking, do you know how the LORD began His answer to Job? "Who is this that darkeneth counsel BY WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE?"
- Job 38:2
And again, "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it."
- Job 40:2
Do you know what Job realized after the LORD was done? " . . . Therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not."
- Job 42:3
To your question, there will be no greater than what the Scriptures have given in the book of Job.
This is a tough scripture, the sons of God and the daughters of men. Some consider the sons of God to be the line of Seth and the daughters of men the line of Cain. Then if we throw in what Jesus said in Matt. 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven, wow.
There is no need for angels in heaven to marry, they are immortal, and no need to reproduce as we will be after the resurrection in the kingdom on the new earth. Angels are called sons of God in Hebrew b'nai Elohim in Job 1:6Job 2:1Job 38:7.
Through scripture angels take on human form, they eat and drink Gen. 18:7-8Gen. 19:3 and physically wrestle with man, Gen. 32:24. If they eat and drink would that mean they have all the organs of man on earth? Scripture tells us there are devils/demons and fallen angels on earth along with Satan but there is another group of angels. These angels are different, they are locked in chains of darkness in the bottomless pit until judgment. 2 Peter 2:4-7Jude 1:6-7. We see in Rev. 9:11 this pit has a king, and this is where Satan will be locked up for 1000 years.
They left their first estate, heaven and in 2 Peter and Jude it says making them an example, (going after strange flesh), they corrupted God's creation Gen. 6:5-7. Even though there are fallen angels roaming the earth this set of angels God made an example to the others they will be locked in chains of darkness until judgment. We see the devils in Mark 5:9-10 were in fear Jesus might cast them down to the bottomless pit.
We see that this happened again after the flood, Gen. 6:4 "and also after." The description in scripture is clear these are not just tall people. 2 Samuel 21:16Joshua 12:4Numbers 13:33Deuteronomy 2:19-21Deuteronomy 20:17Amos 2:9. This is just a small amount of information but may it will help in your study.
Genesis 2:15,16,17, Genesis 3:1-6, skipping parts Genesis 3:14,15, between the seed of Serpent - Revelation 20:2,
John 8:34, 1John 3, Romans 5, John 3:16-21, James 1:5, Proverbs 8:17,
Example, simple Salvation "GOD save me" many times in life threatening situations, & many times HE has. Psalms 18:3, Psalms 107:13, Psalms 44:7, Luke 18:42, Psalms 34:6,
Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 2, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Psalms 139,
I would like to add to what Gigi and Richard has shared with the focus on your last question.
"how can one know that God exists if no one has seen him?"
First I would like to draw your attention to Psalms 19:1-4. Carefully read it.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
( EVERY PERSON CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO KNOW THAT GOD EXIST AND THAT HE HAS PLACED US HERE).
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
( MAN, WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF THE SCRIPTURE IS ACCOUNTABLE TO KNOW THERE'S GOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE AND FUNCTION.)
AGAIN Verse 19. Because that which may be known of God is MANIFEST IN THEM; for God hath shewed it unto them.
CREATION IS DESIGNED!!
Job 38:8-11.
Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
GOD CONTROLS THE FLOODS AND THE WAVES, HE DRAWS A LINE AND CALLS THEM BACK.
More verses;
Job 12:7-10.
Job 26:7-8.
This evil world we live in denies the glory of God with its evolution theory and says it all came together by accident.
b. Re: Isaiah 14:12, "Lucifer, son of the morning" and then Revelation 22:16. These two Scriptures are un-related & the persons are in opposition to each other. The Isaiah one is a prophecy against the King of Babylon (verse 4), who outshone the kings of the Earth in splendour & power & because of it, believed he was even greater than the gods or even God Himself. This prophecy alludes to Satan who has similar ambitions, not knowing that he, as that earthly king, will "be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit". He might be called 'son of the morning' for his presence, power & what the world first looks for in the new day as they follow him & his ways. But The Morning Star shines throughout eternity, offering the "water of life freely" to all who are athirst. And He will come again in glorious splendour reigning with His saints forever.
In Revelation 22:12, the word for "bright" is 'lampros' in Greek, which simply means, 'magnificent, bright, splendid'. And "morning star", is a reference to the brightest star that is seen in the morning, being Venus. To connect Lucifer to Jesus is very wrong, since the meaning of Lucifer ('a shining one') and Jesus ('Yahweh is salvation') are clearly different and only Jesus is said to be the 'Morning Star'. The other 'morning stars' are given in Job 38:7, probably referring to the angels or heavenly beings.
I agree all scripture is inspired by God, and I respect your understanding of this subject many accept that view. The line of Seth and the line of Cain or as you put it the righteous and unrighteous line.
Where my understanding comes from, is in all the verses the words sons of God in the Old Testament refer to angelic beings, Job 1:6; 2:1 context shows the sons of God are angels, also Job 38:7, says the sons of God shouted for joy when God created the earth, a man had not been created.
There are angels that God locked in the darkness for what they did that Peter and Jude witnessed that only Genesis 6 matches what Peter and Jude wrote.
I understand Matt.22:30 Mark 12:25 is taken angels do not procreate, Jesus said angels in heaven because of their spiritual being there is no need. Peter and Jude both said they kept not their first estate and left their own habitation, and they could not return and are now locked in the bottomless pit the same place Satan will be locked in for 1000 years.
So, my understanding of the term sons of God has two basic meanings. It refers to the angels, both good and bad, in the Old Testament. But in the New Testament, the phrase refers to believers in Jesus and through Him have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. By this adoption by Jesus, we become sons and daughters of God
You are right, this is hard to understand so we need not be dogmatic but humble. The sons of God are in the OT only 5 times Gen. 6:2, 5 Job 1:6Job 2:6Job 38:7, and Daniel 3:25. The times in Job and Daniel are clearly angelic beings, so how do we take the meaning in Gen. 6. It says, "when the sons of God saw daughters of men", The Hebrew word for men here is h-'-m/adam meaning mankind. So, is this distinguishing a difference in the sons of adam/men?
There are words that we may overlook, "and also after that". We see giants/Nephilim after the flood. 2 Sam. 21:16Joshua 12:4Num. 13:33Deut. 2:19-21Deut. 20:17Amos 2:9 and more. Are there any NT scriptures that speak to this?
2 Peter 2:4-6 and Jude 1:6-7 both are talking about angels who sinned and "which kept not their first estate but left their own habitation", the Greek word is used only two times translated habitation is oiktrion, the other place was in 2 Cor 5:2 the word house. Peter and Jude both compare what these angels did the same as in Sodom and Gomorrah, strange flesh.
There are fallen angels along with Satan who are active on the earth today and still have access to heaven, but these angels did something even worse because God made an example of them and locked them in chains of darkness in the bottomless pit, until judgment. I do not know of any man in the OT who was ever called or referred to as son of God, I may have overlooked it, but my understanding is Nephilim came from these angels that God locked up.
Fake gods come from rebellion against GOD ALMIGHTY. Acts 19:26, 2Kings 19:18,
1Timothy 2:5,
The imagination of man; to ignore the obvious all around: that the earth, our very being, molecules that aren't created, only slightly manipulated by man, asks an answer beyond some comprehension.
The question itself seems to derive from rebellion. Isaiah 55:8, Isaiah 29:15,16, Psalms 94:5-15, Psalms 139, Job 38:2-41, Job 40:7-13,
GOD gave some of us very deeply inquisitive minds, to invent witty things, Proverbs 8:12, some build imaginative creations, that in ourselves deep questions of consciousness & core beginnings arise at times. In these gifted minds of power & powerful thinking, faults sometimes into arrogance of belief to define The CREATOR & make a beginning. Because in limited understanding we have beginning & perceivable ending in flesh. Yet in our core perceive there is more in the supernatural, outside the flesh. 1Corinthians 1:27,
We as humans are like gods ourselves we can choose to do mighty evil or good in our days, we can cause other's to cry in distress or rejoice with gladness but in the end we will all answer to GOD ALMIGHTY the maker of heaven & earth. Psalms 82, Leviticus 25:17, Romans 14:12,
It's also amazing that a creator would care so much for what HE has created that HE would still have a plan of redemption even after rebellion: John 3:16
Interesting thread, can we understand the wisdom of God? God is light and no darkness is in Him. "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man". Can we understand what was done to Job? Can we understand why God allowed Satan limited control over the earth? Do we know why all the deaths, wars, and evil are allowed to be on earth? Do we overlook Jesus was sacrificed not only to reconcile things on the earth but also to reconcile things in heaven Colossians 1:20?
Did God allow Adam and Eve to sin? God has declared the end from the beginning and many things we have not been told, there come speculation that man is good at, self-included. There are two Adams in scripture and God's plan was before the world was. Can we ask the question, was the first Adam's purpose to start mankind; or was it for the same reason the last Adam was manifested that Satan had no clue? 1 John 3:8.
Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
We cannot come close to grasping the wisdom of God and His plan. We must humble ourselves; we have been given a choice to accept the grace God has given us in the sacrifice of His only begotten Son. If we accept this gift of salvation, we give this fleshly life to Him.
God is in control, not free will, whether we understand it or not and we must trust God with what happens to us in this life even if we are killed. A time is coming when many will be. Our hope is not in this life but in the life to come.
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: ( Titus 2:1)
The Bible tells us we lived with God before we were born.
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? ( Job 38:4,7)
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. ( Jeremiah 1:5)
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 (Timothy 1:9)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: ( Ephesians 1:4)
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: ( 1 Corinthians 2:7)
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Titus1:2)
(A Prayer of Moses the man of God.) Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. (Psalms: 90:1-2)
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. ( Romans 11:2)
She was with our Lord before and during the creation of the world.
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; ( Proverbs 8:30)
Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Praying For The Blessing on This Nation - 1 year ago
Amos 4:7
And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained NOT WITHERED.
Isaiah 5:6
And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
Job 38:34
Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee? [Read whole chapter]
Psalms 105:32
He gave them hail for rain, and flaming fire in their land.
Proverbs 25:23
The north wind driveth away rain: so does an angry countenance a backbiting tongue.
Job 24:19
Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so does the grave, those which have sinned.
Job 37:6
For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength.
Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but water the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is HIS name, and what is his SON'S name, if thou canst tell?
2 Chronicles 7:14
IF MY PEOPLE, which are called by my name, SHALL HUMBLE themselves, and pray, and seek MY FACE (not my hand), and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
NOTE: our nation is in severe drought.
One rogue lightning storm can set dry forests on fire. Pray every day for refreshing to come again.
No rain, no harvests, less food, even higher food prices at the store.
Part 1 Trinity discussion
To start; I used to have a similar understanding of the Trinity doctrine but over time it has changed, and I am still studying it. I do not consider myself part of any group or denomination other than a believer and follower of Jesus. I feel we should inspire each other to study in prayer for the truth and to be open to the Holy Spirit to unveil the truth as we know nothing.
With me, it started with two verses, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4, I contemplated these verses for a long time, it was like they stuck in my mind unanswered. In my study of the Trinity, I found out how it developed and how many deaths it caused even after the Reformation, and the questions I asked in Churches, many could not explain it and said it is a mystery that man cannot comprehend.
Is God and has He always been one solitary person?
Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD, Mark 12:29 and as said in 1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. My understanding is God the Father is eternal He has always been and will always be Psalms 90:2. God is Spirit, if a person means He has a will, emotions, the ability to speak, rationalize, self-awareness, to have a relationship with His creation, love, hate, etc. yes one person.
Before creation was, He always and only alone, without anyone to love?
What was before creation in Scripture we have no writings or information, Scripture tells us the hosts of heaven were before the creation of the earth and the galaxies, Job 38:4-7. How long before the physical world and universe we see we do not know. God's plan He declared the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:9-10. I may be wrong, but God has never been alone inside Himself, time nor space cannot contain who He is, the beginning of His plan was Jesus.
See part 2
Revelation 5:12 describes those in heaven praising God but we also see evidence that ALL those on earth will also do the same; even those who are under the earth (possibly the dead souls in hades). I have said before that if the rapture is hidden the RESURRECTION of the dead saints from graves all over the world surely WON'T be able to remain hidden.
There are several themes in scripture that this reminds us of. First the state of all the angels praising God as seen in Job 38:7.
Lucifer fell AFTER this event; how quickly it is unknown but it may have seemed to be a shock to the 2/3 that remained faithful to their state of holiness to see 1/3 fall away with him ( Revelation 12:4 shows the end result). Of course the fall of man brought sudden issues as well. It didn't take long for the first murder to occur with Adam's firstborn son. And we could see shades of the same thing at the tower of Babel shortly after the flood.
What man will crave will be brought about; no doubt by Antichrist's delusion of peace at the first seal ( Rev. 6:1-2). This is going to appear to be a great light of hope (see 2 Cor. 11:14). Shades of the peace and security now will come to the climax with the Daniel 9:27 covenant being CONFIRMED or an original one made stronger (likely what is now known as the Abraham accords).
Whatever illusion of peace that comes will be short lived as the inevitable decay of society will result in the rest of the seal judgments of war; famine and pestilence to kill 1/4 of men (which appears to all occur BEFORE the mark of the Beast).
Those who end up following Antichrist will also worship the dragon (Satan) as seen in Rev. 13:14-18 who gives power to the Beast. They eventually end up fighting God as we see from Psalm 2 and Revelation 19.
Many have argued that out of fear men will be somehow tricked or coerced to take the mark. Revelation 13:8 seems to argue against this as WORSHIP occurs.
If you would allow me once again to intervene.
The book of Job is written mostly in poetic form.
Job 27:1 and Job 29:1 Job is speaking and it has nothing to do with the topic of the clouds or bottles.
Job 38 it is the Lord speaking, Not Job.
Job 38:1-3 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me...
Lee, test what you gather from others with the written scriptures and continue on with a reading program.
Also a concordance and a bible dictionary is a great help.
And pray always.
Here is where I pull out of this discussion
God bless you.
The Bottles of heaven "clouds": it is an allusion to the girbahs, In the Hebrew its nay'-bel its a skin bag for liquids or bottles made of skin, in which they are accustomed to carry their water
God is asking Job does he know how God controls the weather!
It has nothing to do with you and I being a old bag of wine and it doesn't have anything that suggests one day we will be Gods.
I'm telling you this because that is what Jordyn is presenting to you.
Be careful! He has a way of spiritualizing the scripture and making it say what he wants it to say.
We know him well, He's been on this site for many years under several different names presenting this false doctrine.
The clouds in Hebrews is "nephos" it's used to picture a large dense multitude.
The clouds used in Job is "shachaq"
a powder (as beaten small); by analogy a thin vapor; by extension the firmament: - {cloud} small {dust} {heaven} sky. (Strongs definition in the Hebrew.)
The usage has no parallel.
Read Job 38:1-41 and get the context.
Now concerning the wine skins in Matthew 9:14-17.
verse 14 Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?
John was the Last of the old testament prophets.
He came to announce the coming of the King.
Christ came to usher in something New.
Verse 16 and 17 Christ explains the change of dispensations.
The old dispensation of law was ending and Christ didn't come to patch it up, He came to present a new garment.
We being the body of Christ and Christ being the Head represents we being baptized into union with Christ and him being Lord over his body. He's the head and Lord over our lives by the quickening Spirit that rose Christ from the dead.
Romans 8:8-14.
God bless you.
Your getting closer to understanding.
You are right, the old (wine bottle) has passed away, and YOU ARE the NEW (bottles of heaven).
Job 38:37 Who can number the CLOUDS (of heaven) .... Mark 14:62 ..... Hebrews 12:1 ...... IN WISDOM? or who can stay the bottles of heaven.
You DIED with Christ, but only Christ arose, YOU were a JOINT HEIR with Christ in the Kingdom of God, Christ is the kingdom of God.
You DIED, only Christ is alive and YOU are the Body of that LIFE, as Christ is the BODY of the LIFE of his Father.
You said you want to lead a LIFE of OBEDIENCE, You DIED, ONLY Christ exist, he is the LIFE, and you the Body, He CAUSES you to do his WILL, Christ, The Body, walks in total obedience to his Father's Life (Spirit); therefore, if and when you come to TRUTH, you walk in total obedience.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is BORN of God (resurrected as ONE FLESH), doth not commit sin; for HIS SEED (Christ) remains IN HIM, and he CANNOT SIN, because he is BORN of God (resurrected as ONE FLESH with Christ).
You obey and honour God when you BELIEVE his words.
God Bless YOU!
"Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in."
Jesus riding into Jerusalem is specific which according to the narrative mode of the Spirit has its spiritual ancillary. In the gospel we read, "And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest."(Matt.21:9) Multitudes going before similarly has its multilayered meaning. 'The multitudes point to the prophets as in the epistle to the Hebrews, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,/ Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,"(He.1:1-2). They 'that followed' by the same token agree with those whom the risen Christ sent "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations," (Matt.28:19)
The city doors were only one part in his circuit to the glory that awaited him. These doors signifying Jerusalem is only associated with the Word become flesh and beyond that to its everlasting shame we have this condemnation," And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."(Re.11:8)
We have another gate through which God sent his Son the King of glory to enter. God out of the whirlwind asks Job,"Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?"( Job 38:17) He is the king of glory because he triumphed over death. "Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it."(Ac.2:24)
"And this is the gate of heaven," which Jacob saw in his dream,(Ge.28:17) through which Jesus Christ went up. "Why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."(Ac.1:11)
Genesis 1:1 The Hebrew word shamayim meaning heaven, heavens, sky, and lofty, is in the Bible over 400 times and it is masculine plural. The Hebrew word for water is mayim it is also masculine plural, due to ending in im. They are plural nouns but can be dual, as the names of people and places in the Bible end in im. Translating it into English would depend on the context.
Some translations have heavens, and some have heaven but what is Genesis 1:1 saying? Some say this includes all three heavens, some even put a gap between verses 1 and 2, but what beginning is this? The third heaven is where God's throne and the angelic beings are, they were already there. They were before this world and universe as we see in Job 38:4-7 so this is our beginning, not the beginning of all creation.
My understanding is this verse is the introduction to the creation of the things that can be seen that are temporal that one day will all be made new. What I see is God waved His hand and all that is in our universe and our world was created and it all was in darkness and chaos. Nothing was formed or brought forth into order, the light shined into the darkness, light was the first day, the beginning of order that we see take place in the following verses.
God bless,
RLW
"The Living Waters"
The Spirit invests significance in the four cardinal directions, North, South East West which is not merely across but also up and down. Across gives us the outreach of the everlasting gospel but up and down also reveal where the living water shall go up or down. We have the four river heads in the context of the Garden of Eden. "And the fourth river is Euphrates."(Ge.2:14)
In the Book of the Revelation when the sixth angel sounds the trumpet we have this command,"Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates./And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men." (Re.9:14-15). They have been prepared for a specific purpose. It is hour of judgment. For this reason we have this expression 'Foundations' which are invisible to which Hannah alludes in her song of praise. "For the pillars of the earth are theLord's, and he hath set the world upon them." (1 Sa.2:8)
God demands answer from Job, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding./Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?/Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;" ( Job 38:4-6)
Because of this when the red dragon would hurt the left behind church God had prepared already a remedy. "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood./And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."(Re.12:15-16)
The living water carry the redeemed to the throne of God while the second group is sent to the hinter sea which is Abaddon."nd they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, -Apollyon (Re.9:11)
Nothing is hid from God's presence, "For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known".( Luke 12:2). Face in the parlance of the Spirit is simply a term to define a surface that is open before God, and implies beginning of a process, as in the face of Cain. God asks him, "The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?" (Ge.4:6-ESV). His 'countenance' (KJV) or face was open before him.
By the same token the creation account presents, "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters".(Ge.1:2). Its reaction we have in this verse, "The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: the depths also were troubled" (Ps.77:16).
From the convulsions the deep presented before the Spirit we can infer that the face holds a quality. As God tells Job ' it is turned as the clay to the seal.'( Job 38:14) This explains the manner God framed the worlds by his word. He commanded 'Fiat Lux' and consequently the things, which came to the surface were seen, as hidden depths of Cain's heart were mirrored in his face. The will of God brought the earth as clay to the seal. It is as finished as the will of God shall be complete and wanting nothing more. So we have this certainty, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."(Ro.11:29-NKJV)
Face is the presence of God, which St Paul annotates in this verse, "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."(2 Co.4:6) Coming back to the creation account the Spirit of God moving upon the waters gave every water vapor a certain ability to know the glory of God, ( Jas 4:14). Ro.1:19-20. "So we are without excuse."
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have BELIEVED do enter into REST (the sabbath), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall ENTER IN TO MY (the sabbath) REST; although the WORKS were FINISHED from the foundations of the world.
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the GOSPEL preached, as well (as it was preached) TO THEM ......
We are just playing out what has ALREADY been written.
God's will is BEING DONE.
We are JUST POTS being CONFORMED into the IMAGE of Christ. From the first man TIL the last man.
Revelation 22:13 "I AM " Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the FIRST and the LAST.
Romans 8:29 .... he did PREDESTINATE to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE of son.
Job 38:7 When all the morning stars SANG TOGETHER (all became ONE), the SONS of GOD (all became ONE) shouted for joy?
John 17:22 And the GLORY that thou hast GIVEN ME, I HAVE GIVEN THEM (finished from the foundations of the world), that they may be ONE, even as WE ARE ONE.
Psalms 46:10 Be still and know "I AM" God ......
Isaiah 26:3 Thou will KEEP HIM in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee .....
God Bless YOU!
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. ( John 9:41).
In the Old Testament we see the mad Prophet Balaam stopped by a donkey who God readily used to block his way and for a mouthpiece of rebuke. ( 2 Peter 2:16-18 as quoted in the N.T. from Numbers 22-24). We see also how the demons Jesus cast out knew who Jesus was ( Mark 3:11-12). This is somewhat understandable from the fact that the angels were there to see God in heaven and witness the creation of the earth ( Job 38:7).
We are warned in James 2:19 about not just saying that we believe in God. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom; this is quoted many times in scripture. The conscience of men can be seared after some time; hearts hardened ( 1 Tim. 4:2; Exodus 7:3 and subsequent verses with Pharaoh). A believer has a healthy awe based on God's Holiness; and without holiness no man can see God ( Heb. 12:14).
Only man could see the miracles of Christ and still remain in unbelief. That would not just be related to the physical miracles when on earth; but also the miracle of salvation which often was accompanied by deliverance in scripture but which we see today. Mercifully God forgives any sin against the Father or Son is forgivable ( Matt. 12:32); but against the Holy Spirit is not.
The Spirit demonstrates His Holiness amongst the ministry of John 16:8 warning the world of sin; righteousness and judgment to come. The opposite of a broken and contrite heart is pride and self righteousness (only the sick need a physician Matt. 9:12).
Therefore such Pharisitical people also make their own twisted judgments on right and wrong and condemn others based on that mindset.
May we read scripture for its true meaning not through any man centered agenda; respecting ALL of it as God's Word ( 2 Tim. 3:16). May we have a heart to always glean new truths from God; seeking His face daily ( Psalm 1:2
Satan Himself was built on pride and self-exaltation therefore was mad enough to desire worship for himself despite being in heaven and seeing God's glory and no doubt the earth and the rest of Creation therefore he was given no chance of repentance ( Job 38:7). We see singing in that verse; something Lucifer as Cheribum was designed to do in charge of worship but it was turned to evil. By default then Satan is the God and loyalty of all who do this to the Spirit; most will sin and admit God is righteous or simply hate God or be afraid (as in the sixth seal); eventually Satan will be sent for those who LOVE not the truth but a lie ( 2 Thess. 2:10). Like it or not Antichrist will eventually blasphemy God and yet all those not in the Book of Life will worship him and be damned ( Rev. 13:8).
You asked: How does Satan deceive this whole world? Rev.12:9
Revelation was written in the first century of Christian Era, at that time the Devil had already deceived mankind for around 4000 years, even JESUS was tempted by the Devil I suppose in Neguev, but Satan still had not 7 heads; The 7 heads was still in the embryo.
But now, in this current time of Apocalypse, around 2000 years AC, the body of the Devil will be completed with 7 heads, and 10 horns, and 7 crowns upon his 7 heads.His new name now is red Dragon-Rev.12:9-,and his TAIL drew (shall cast down)the third part of the STARS of heaven to the earth.(STARS? who are the STARS? Job 38:4&7 combined with Daniel 12:3).
When the red Dragon-Rev.13:11-gives his POWER,and his Throne in Jerusalem,and great Authority to the Beast of sea, upon which rides de great whore-the Roman Catholic Church-then the holy city will be trodden by the Gentiles- Luke 21:24 combined with Rev.11:2, and he will join Catholicism and Judaism(iron and clay- Daniel 2), then the body of Satan/the Dragon will grow exceedingly, but it will grow even more with the adhesion of evangelical churches whose angels are fallen or spiritually dead, these will form or constitute the TAIL of the Dragon, these will believe in the false messiah, the Beast that will rise from the earth(Israel, the clay, the dry land), a false lamb, a false messiah- John 5:43-47 combined from Revelation 13:11, then the Red Dragon's body will be complete with his 7 heads, 10 horns and a TAIL. By the way, the origin of the false messiah is of the 10 tribs of Israel,especifically of the trib of Dan- Genesis 49:17.
He will exercise all the power of the first Beast before him,will cause the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first Beast(of sea)whose deadly wound was healed.
And he will do great wonders,so that will make fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,and will deceive them that dwell on the earth by the means of...
The old testament hope is the son of righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. Malachi 4:2.
The morning star always rises at the darkest time of the night.
It indicates that the sun will be coming up shortly.
Job 3:9. "Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:
Here in Job 38:7 it indicates there's several morning stars.
"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Isaiah 14:12 indicates Satan is just one of the many.
I believe Jesus is the Morning star for the Saints, Letting us know there's Light ahead of these dark times.
2Peter 1:19 puts it this way;
"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Hopefully someone can add .
God bless.
It is helpful to go back to the Creation story to see God's original plan and design for man; and the results of the fall. In this segment I will look at the enemy of our souls ( 1 Peter 5:8). Lucifer's fall is covered in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. When we see that narrative play out we see where sin actually originated and the cause was mainly pride. That blossomed of course to violence and other things ( Ezekiel 28:16) which I would briefly propose was an angelic society which may have started in heaven and perhaps led to a judgment between Genesis 1:1 and 1;2 sometimes called the "gap theory". For our purposes we will summarize that there had to be some time for the angels to be drawn to follow Lucifer; as well as to some time after all the angels sang to God's glory at creation before he fell ( Job 38:7-9).
Lucifer was much like man; in the sense that he was created to worship and adore the Lord; made flawless and beautiful and in innocence there was nothing wrong about that. He was a Cherub ( Ezekiel 28:14); therefore at an elevated status much like Adam and Eve were given authority to rule and reign over the rest of Creation in a unique role and status.
The serpent was used by the enemy to deceive through appealing to man's hidden knowledge that could somehow elevate his status and bring them something more than God intended as the real thrust of the temptation. A lack of TRUST in God is where the real issue is; and that of the heart of man which Jeremiah 17:9 makes it clear is desperately wicked. Therefore; what God made had the potential to become corrupted and wicked; in the same token one who is saved is made to glorify God and destined to become as Paul stated a "celestial body" ( 1 Corinthians 15:40). There is a resurrection for all men; but one to eternal soul damnation for the wicked ( John 5:29). The wicked cannot enter the Kingdom of God ( Rev. 21:27).
Part 2.
The substance of the material for the furniture of the Tabernacle was different in the Holy Place. In the outer court, brass was the prevailing material since it had to do with the judgment of sin. In the Holy Place, gold was the material that predominated. This was no accident or chance occurrence. Gold was the only object that set forth in such a visible way the deity of Christ. Two objects of furniture, the lampstand and the mercy seat, were made entirely of gold.
The lampstand was the perfect symbol of Christ as the Son of God:
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. ( John 1:9)
He was a "light of the Gentiles" ( Isaiah 42:6). Had He been philanthropic and had not come out of God, He would have been merely another teacher "that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge" ( Job 38:2). He would have only added another ethical system to the already multitudinous and multifarious systems, and He would have been but the harbinger of darkness "through philosophy and vain deceit" ( Colossians 2:8). But as the Son of God, He "is light, and in him is no darkness at all" ( 1 John 1:5).
The lampstand was handmade of beaten work and was highly ornamented. There was a central shaft with three branches on a side, making seven branches in all. Each branch contained three sections, each section being beaten into the shape of an almond blossom and a knop. On top of each shaft was an open almond blossom. On each of these were placed the olive oil lamps.
See part 3.
When Job had finished asking the same questions you are asking, do you know how the LORD began His answer to Job? "Who is this that darkeneth counsel BY WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE?"
- Job 38:2
And again, "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it."
- Job 40:2
Do you know what Job realized after the LORD was done? " . . . Therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not."
- Job 42:3
To your question, there will be no greater than what the Scriptures have given in the book of Job.
I suggest you read the entire book of Job.
This is a tough scripture, the sons of God and the daughters of men. Some consider the sons of God to be the line of Seth and the daughters of men the line of Cain. Then if we throw in what Jesus said in Matt. 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven, wow.
There is no need for angels in heaven to marry, they are immortal, and no need to reproduce as we will be after the resurrection in the kingdom on the new earth. Angels are called sons of God in Hebrew b'nai Elohim in Job 1:6 Job 2:1 Job 38:7.
Through scripture angels take on human form, they eat and drink Gen. 18:7-8 Gen. 19:3 and physically wrestle with man, Gen. 32:24. If they eat and drink would that mean they have all the organs of man on earth? Scripture tells us there are devils/demons and fallen angels on earth along with Satan but there is another group of angels. These angels are different, they are locked in chains of darkness in the bottomless pit until judgment. 2 Peter 2:4-7 Jude 1:6-7. We see in Rev. 9:11 this pit has a king, and this is where Satan will be locked up for 1000 years.
They left their first estate, heaven and in 2 Peter and Jude it says making them an example, (going after strange flesh), they corrupted God's creation Gen. 6:5-7. Even though there are fallen angels roaming the earth this set of angels God made an example to the others they will be locked in chains of darkness until judgment. We see the devils in Mark 5:9-10 were in fear Jesus might cast them down to the bottomless pit.
We see that this happened again after the flood, Gen. 6:4 "and also after." The description in scripture is clear these are not just tall people. 2 Samuel 21:16 Joshua 12:4 Numbers 13:33 Deuteronomy 2:19-21 Deuteronomy 20:17 Amos 2:9. This is just a small amount of information but may it will help in your study.
God bless,
RLW
Genesis 2:15,16,17, Genesis 3:1-6, skipping parts Genesis 3:14,15, between the seed of Serpent - Revelation 20:2,
John 8:34, 1John 3, Romans 5, John 3:16-21, James 1:5, Proverbs 8:17,
Example, simple Salvation "GOD save me" many times in life threatening situations, & many times HE has. Psalms 18:3, Psalms 107:13, Psalms 44:7, Luke 18:42, Psalms 34:6,
Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 2, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Psalms 139,
Romans 10:13, context Romans 10, Everlasting Salvation, Isaiah 45:17, Acts 4,
1John 3:14, Job 38:17, Revelation 20, Psalms 49, Ecclesiastes 8:8, Romans 5, Revelation 21,
Hopefully these are helpful
I would like to add to what Gigi and Richard has shared with the focus on your last question.
"how can one know that God exists if no one has seen him?"
First I would like to draw your attention to Psalms 19:1-4. Carefully read it.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
( EVERY PERSON CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO KNOW THAT GOD EXIST AND THAT HE HAS PLACED US HERE).
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
( MAN, WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF THE SCRIPTURE IS ACCOUNTABLE TO KNOW THERE'S GOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE AND FUNCTION.)
AGAIN Verse 19. Because that which may be known of God is MANIFEST IN THEM; for God hath shewed it unto them.
CREATION IS DESIGNED!!
Job 38:8-11.
Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
GOD CONTROLS THE FLOODS AND THE WAVES, HE DRAWS A LINE AND CALLS THEM BACK.
More verses;
Job 12:7-10.
Job 26:7-8.
This evil world we live in denies the glory of God with its evolution theory and says it all came together by accident.
Hopefully others will share.
I hope this helps.
God bless.
b. Re: Isaiah 14:12, "Lucifer, son of the morning" and then Revelation 22:16. These two Scriptures are un-related & the persons are in opposition to each other. The Isaiah one is a prophecy against the King of Babylon (verse 4), who outshone the kings of the Earth in splendour & power & because of it, believed he was even greater than the gods or even God Himself. This prophecy alludes to Satan who has similar ambitions, not knowing that he, as that earthly king, will "be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit". He might be called 'son of the morning' for his presence, power & what the world first looks for in the new day as they follow him & his ways. But The Morning Star shines throughout eternity, offering the "water of life freely" to all who are athirst. And He will come again in glorious splendour reigning with His saints forever.
In Revelation 22:12, the word for "bright" is 'lampros' in Greek, which simply means, 'magnificent, bright, splendid'. And "morning star", is a reference to the brightest star that is seen in the morning, being Venus. To connect Lucifer to Jesus is very wrong, since the meaning of Lucifer ('a shining one') and Jesus ('Yahweh is salvation') are clearly different and only Jesus is said to be the 'Morning Star'. The other 'morning stars' are given in Job 38:7, probably referring to the angels or heavenly beings.
I agree all scripture is inspired by God, and I respect your understanding of this subject many accept that view. The line of Seth and the line of Cain or as you put it the righteous and unrighteous line.
Where my understanding comes from, is in all the verses the words sons of God in the Old Testament refer to angelic beings, Job 1:6; 2:1 context shows the sons of God are angels, also Job 38:7, says the sons of God shouted for joy when God created the earth, a man had not been created.
There are angels that God locked in the darkness for what they did that Peter and Jude witnessed that only Genesis 6 matches what Peter and Jude wrote.
I understand Matt.22:30 Mark 12:25 is taken angels do not procreate, Jesus said angels in heaven because of their spiritual being there is no need. Peter and Jude both said they kept not their first estate and left their own habitation, and they could not return and are now locked in the bottomless pit the same place Satan will be locked in for 1000 years.
So, my understanding of the term sons of God has two basic meanings. It refers to the angels, both good and bad, in the Old Testament. But in the New Testament, the phrase refers to believers in Jesus and through Him have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. By this adoption by Jesus, we become sons and daughters of God
Thanks for your reply,
God bless,
RLW
You are right, this is hard to understand so we need not be dogmatic but humble. The sons of God are in the OT only 5 times Gen. 6:2, 5 Job 1:6 Job 2:6 Job 38:7, and Daniel 3:25. The times in Job and Daniel are clearly angelic beings, so how do we take the meaning in Gen. 6. It says, "when the sons of God saw daughters of men", The Hebrew word for men here is h-'-m/adam meaning mankind. So, is this distinguishing a difference in the sons of adam/men?
There are words that we may overlook, "and also after that". We see giants/Nephilim after the flood. 2 Sam. 21:16 Joshua 12:4 Num. 13:33 Deut. 2:19-21 Deut. 20:17 Amos 2:9 and more. Are there any NT scriptures that speak to this?
2 Peter 2:4-6 and Jude 1:6-7 both are talking about angels who sinned and "which kept not their first estate but left their own habitation", the Greek word is used only two times translated habitation is oiktrion, the other place was in 2 Cor 5:2 the word house. Peter and Jude both compare what these angels did the same as in Sodom and Gomorrah, strange flesh.
There are fallen angels along with Satan who are active on the earth today and still have access to heaven, but these angels did something even worse because God made an example of them and locked them in chains of darkness in the bottomless pit, until judgment. I do not know of any man in the OT who was ever called or referred to as son of God, I may have overlooked it, but my understanding is Nephilim came from these angels that God locked up.
God bless,
RLW
Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5, 1Samuel 15:35, Job 10:21,22, Job 34:22, Job 38:17, Revelation 2:7, Luke 23:33-43, Luke 16:19-31, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 48:14, Psalms 49:14, Ecclesiastes 8:8, Isaiah 38:18, Romans 7, 2Corinthians 7:10,
Psalms 56:13, Psalms 89:48, Proverbs 10:2, Proverbs 14:27, Ecclesiastes 9:4,
Psalms 116:15, Proverbs 14:32, Isaiah 9:2, Isaiah 25:8, Hosea 13:14, Luke 18:33, John 8:51, John 5:24, Acts 2:24-27, Romans 5:10-21, Romans 6:2-23, Romans 8, 2Timothy 1:10, 1John 3:14,
Jeremiah 21:8, Ezekiel 18:31,32, 1Corinthians 15:20-58, Revelation 1:18,
Hebrews 2:9-18, Revelation 20, Revelation 21,
1Timothy 2:5,
The imagination of man; to ignore the obvious all around: that the earth, our very being, molecules that aren't created, only slightly manipulated by man, asks an answer beyond some comprehension.
The question itself seems to derive from rebellion. Isaiah 55:8, Isaiah 29:15,16, Psalms 94:5-15, Psalms 139, Job 38:2-41, Job 40:7-13,
GOD gave some of us very deeply inquisitive minds, to invent witty things, Proverbs 8:12, some build imaginative creations, that in ourselves deep questions of consciousness & core beginnings arise at times. In these gifted minds of power & powerful thinking, faults sometimes into arrogance of belief to define The CREATOR & make a beginning. Because in limited understanding we have beginning & perceivable ending in flesh. Yet in our core perceive there is more in the supernatural, outside the flesh. 1Corinthians 1:27,
We as humans are like gods ourselves we can choose to do mighty evil or good in our days, we can cause other's to cry in distress or rejoice with gladness but in the end we will all answer to GOD ALMIGHTY the maker of heaven & earth. Psalms 82, Leviticus 25:17, Romans 14:12,
It's also amazing that a creator would care so much for what HE has created that HE would still have a plan of redemption even after rebellion: John 3:16
Interesting thread, can we understand the wisdom of God? God is light and no darkness is in Him. "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man". Can we understand what was done to Job? Can we understand why God allowed Satan limited control over the earth? Do we know why all the deaths, wars, and evil are allowed to be on earth? Do we overlook Jesus was sacrificed not only to reconcile things on the earth but also to reconcile things in heaven Colossians 1:20?
Did God allow Adam and Eve to sin? God has declared the end from the beginning and many things we have not been told, there come speculation that man is good at, self-included. There are two Adams in scripture and God's plan was before the world was. Can we ask the question, was the first Adam's purpose to start mankind; or was it for the same reason the last Adam was manifested that Satan had no clue? 1 John 3:8.
Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
We cannot come close to grasping the wisdom of God and His plan. We must humble ourselves; we have been given a choice to accept the grace God has given us in the sacrifice of His only begotten Son. If we accept this gift of salvation, we give this fleshly life to Him.
God is in control, not free will, whether we understand it or not and we must trust God with what happens to us in this life even if we are killed. A time is coming when many will be. Our hope is not in this life but in the life to come.
Job 38:1-4 Micah 4:12 1 Corinthians 2:14 Revelation 10:7
God bless,
RLW
The Holy Spirit has given you great insight to his word.
Our knowledge of God never ceases to grow as we spend time in his word.
1 Corinthians 2:9 ...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man, the things God hath prepare for them that love him.
Job 38:7 When the MORNING STARS .....sang together ....
Revelation 22:16 ...I am .....the bright and MORNING STAR .....
Revelation 2:28 and I will give him the MORNING STAR ....
Psalms 82: ....ye are gods, the children of the most high .....
John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one.
God Bless YOU, his body!
The Bible tells us we lived with God before we were born.
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? ( Job 38:4,7)
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. ( Jeremiah 1:5)
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 (Timothy 1:9)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: ( Ephesians 1:4)
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: ( 1 Corinthians 2:7)
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Titus1:2)
(A Prayer of Moses the man of God.) Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. (Psalms: 90:1-2)
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. ( Romans 11:2)
She was with our Lord before and during the creation of the world.
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; ( Proverbs 8:30)
Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
( Proverbs 8:4, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27)
And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained NOT WITHERED.
Isaiah 5:6
And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
Job 38:34
Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee? [Read whole chapter]
Psalms 105:32
He gave them hail for rain, and flaming fire in their land.
Proverbs 25:23
The north wind driveth away rain: so does an angry countenance a backbiting tongue.
Job 24:19
Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so does the grave, those which have sinned.
Job 37:6
For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength.
Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but water the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is HIS name, and what is his SON'S name, if thou canst tell?
2 Chronicles 7:14
IF MY PEOPLE, which are called by my name, SHALL HUMBLE themselves, and pray, and seek MY FACE (not my hand), and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
NOTE: our nation is in severe drought.
One rogue lightning storm can set dry forests on fire. Pray every day for refreshing to come again.
No rain, no harvests, less food, even higher food prices at the store.
Streetpreacher
.i.e. The sons of Seth married outside the lineage of Seth.
I.e. Job 38:6-7
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
2 Peter 2:4-5
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.