Discuss Job 14

  • Adam - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Hi Richard,

    The verse doesn't say that. Paul states his preference in that verse.

    But in 1 Corinthians 5:3 Paul says he actually is absent in body, but present in spirit to the Corinthians.

    Luke 17:37 says wherever the body is (deceased) that eagles (like vultures) gather.

    Someone stating his preference to be with the Lord doesn't automatically invalidate all the other scripture in the Bible that says we will sleep (in death) until Jesus returns. But I know there's a strong incentive to believe it for funerals and because the phrase has been repeated so many times. No one skips judgment day though.

    Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
  • Adam - In Reply - 6 months ago
    >"The soul does not exist without the body."

    He says this above and that not believing his opinion is "extremely dangerous doctrine". Interesting.

    What matters is what God says, not one man's opinion, regardless of how loud he shouts it. I'm not aware of any scripture supporting his claim, but know of some saying the opposite.

    1 Corinthians 6:19 The Word says our bodies are not our own, implying that it only temporarily hosts us.

    1 Corinthians 5:3 - Paul says his spirit is present with them, although his body is absent.

    Verses about sleeping awaiting judgment. The body is obviously dead, but the soul obviously is in a state of waiting.

    Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    What are we: a body or a soul/spirit? If a hand gets cut off do we really lose part of our soul too, or is it just a physical appendage separate from us?

    Many have out of body experiences- well documented in books and videos, where people have hovered over their bodies watching and noticing things they could not have noticed if they were actually confined to their body.

    In summary, Biblical evidence and personal testimony evidence does not support that claim above.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply on Daniel 12 - 12 months ago
    Hi Giannis,

    Thanks, brother, I hope you did not take Greek Philosophy personally. I understand the Hebrew word nephesh, it can be any being, dog, cat, or cow. It can also mean a soul, a living being, a dead being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion, basically who we are. When I said the spirit of life, I did not mean it had anything to do with the Spirit of God, sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant spirit/breath as the word neshamah used in Job 27:3.

    I understand our being or soul is the same thing it is who we are and who will someday be with Jesus and see God's face. But that day is the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30. In Scripture in death there is no remembrance of us, Psalm 6:5. In death we lie down until, Job 14:12-14 the grave is our house and our bed Job 17:13-16.

    We will see death and the grave and our soul will be there Psalm 89:48 and this Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. I know our understanding may be different, but I do not see in Scripture where we or any part of us is immortal until resurrection day 1 Cor. 15:52-53 we will be raised from the grave, us, our soul/being, who we are.

    The definition of death is the separation of the soul from the body I do not see in Scripture. It does say there is no knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, death, Ecclesiastes 9:10. I do not see that has changed. I know many understand as you and I hope you take this as just a little of where my understanding comes from, for it does not affect salvation.

    The way I see it, we are waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with His reward of eternal life, either we will be alive or asleep in the grave.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Adam - In Reply on Daniel 12 - 12 months ago
    That's not the only place the Bible says people will sleep to await Jesus's return. Here are more...

    Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
  • Adam - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hi Brother S Spencer,

    Some of those questions may be answered in God's Word.

    The purpose of my original question posted is to collect verses and I still only have 1 supporting salvation now which is the one I found. Of the verses posted I don't see any saying we're saved immediately on earth before judgment. Some cited being born again and being a new creature which are great verses but being transformed is not salvation.

    Simply evaluating this on a Biblical support basis there are far more verses supporting future salvation instead of the present one people commonly cite. I believe I listed 7 to 1 before and I found more that support future too, so it might be 10 to 1.

    So if there are no other verses supporting this why does a majority of believers believe in something so hardly supported by the Bible? Could it originate from cultural factors? Funerals for example- often people try to comfort others by saying they're in heaven right now despite Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.

    Just because there are questions does the questions themselves do not invalidate the truth of God's Word. God bless.
  • MountHoreb - In Reply - 1 year ago
    JRay, Suffering is not normal. when Jehovah ( psalm 83:18) created the earth,

    his motives was for man and woman to take care of the earth. to enjoy his

    creation, to take care of the animals. to enjoy the richness that the earth provided.

    he created the ground to give in abundance, so that poverty was impossible. God

    started the earth in the garden of Eden. Jehovah and the heavens was his the main

    authority to mankind according to Genesis 1,2. there were no kings, rulers in the beginning.

    But this happened to mankind: Genesis 3; Genesis 6; Genesis 19; Job 1,2; Luke 4:1-13

    it just getting worse and worse. 2Timothy 3:1-7

    It's a heavenly war, and a invisible war ( Revelation 12:7-13) we humans may not understand but God has revealed it to us in human terms. although the innocent are dying because of 1 John 5:19. WE KEEP THE HOPE AS GOD WANTS US TO: Romans 15:4-6; Revelation 21:3-5

    We continue in the hope. Job 14:14

    IF YOU READ ALL THESE SCRIPTURES YOU WILL SEE WHY MANKIND ARE SUFFERING.

    I HOPE THIS ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hey Jesse,

    Thanks for your reply. You have a better knowledge of Greek than I do, what I see is today, the Greek word , smeron, meaning today, this day, this very day. I think the word today is correct it is how we read the sentence and how it fits with what the thief said and when will he be in paradise, and if paradise is part of Hades or the new earth when it is all fulfilled.

    Heb. 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: What do we understand the meaning to die/death? Platonism says it is a separation of the soul from the body and the souls go to Hades. If the soul is immortal what is appointed to die?

    Luke 16:19-31. Was this a real story or is this a parable He told to people mainly the Pharisees? If we take it as reality, they were judged at death because Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom, and the rich man went to a fiery place of torture. Does scripture support that? Dan. 12:2 Matt. 25:31-34 John 5:28-29 Rev. 20:11-15.

    The rich man was aware of where he was and talking and seems they have a body, asking for Lazarus to wet his finger and cool his tongue. Does scripture say we are awake in death? Job 14:10-12 Ecc. 9:5-6. The context of this chapter is the love of money, and stewardship, Jesus was addressing this to the Pharisees, "No servant can serve two masters".

    Eph. 4 I know some understand this to mean that when Jesus ascended into heaven, he led a host of captives who ascended into heaven with him. But in Acts 2:29-34 David is still in his grave and has not ascended, would David be left? John 3:13. Does this show Jesus ascended alone?

    I will leave it there, I guess it comes down to if we believe our soul is immortal which influences how we understand the scripture. Just some other thoughts, like you said there are probably more understandings. Thanks again.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hi Jcolli9,

    My understanding is like Adam's, just to add to what Adam said. You should study on your own, there are different views.

    The belief that our soul is immortal comes from ancient Greek philosophy. The meaning of death, being a separation of the soul from the body also came from ancient Greek philosophy that is different than what we see in the Old Testament.

    It is Platonism, Augustine of Hippo held this philosophy. He was a theologian, and philosopher with a strong influence on doctrines in the church, in the fourth and early fifth century.

    Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. The spirit/breath gives us life.

    The Hebrew word nephesh means a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion. The Greek word psuche means the soul, life, self, and a person's distinct identity. If you study them, it is also used for all living beings' fish, animals, birds, and man.

    Physically we live AND die, eternally we live OR die, our choice of the gift of God that is through Jesus Christ our Lord, eternal life, or die the second death.

    The word spirit, the Bible writers used the Hebrew word ruach meaning breath, wind, spirit, or the Greek word pneuma also meaning wind, breath, spirit, this life-giving breath/spirit is what goes back to God.

    We are buried dead, mortal, in corruption and we are raised immortally incorruptible 1 Corinthians 15:42-44. That is when we will be absent from this flesh body.

    All consciousness ends when we die. Psalm 6:5 Job 14:12-14 Job 17:13-16 Psalm 89:48 Psalm 115:17 Ecclesiastes 9:5-10

    We sleep in death until resurrection day, the day of redemption. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 Ephesians 4:30

    Our spirit (breath) given to us by God is what keeps us alive, and we are a living soul. Ecclesiastes 12:7 Psalm 104:29 Psalm 146:4 James 2:26

    May this help your study.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Adam - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hello,

    The Bible says we will sleep until Christ's return:

    Daniel 12:2

    Job 14:12

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    1 Corinthians 15:18-20

    Matthew 9:24

    A common reason why people assume they go straight to heaven is misinterpreting 2 Cor 5:8-10. The misinterpretation has been repeated so much its become standard dogma to many well meaning Bible readers. But the only problem is the Bible doesn't say that. Paul only says he'd "rather" absent from the body and present with the Lord. The word Rather is a preference. He's not making a broad statement about the afterlife that 100% of the time, when 100% of all people die, that instantly you skip judgment and are immediately with the Lord 100% of the time.

    Adding further support to this is Paul in the previous book in 1 Corinthians 5:3 already said he was "absent" from the body when he couldn't meet with the Corinthians in person. Based on the same wording used, I think people are extrapolating way too much from Paul's preferential (rather) statement while ignoring the verses that already say everyone will face judgment and all the sleeping until Christ returns, etc. I would find it hard to ignore 5 verses in favor of one "rather" statement that Paul already used before. Paul also preferred everyone remain single like him- so the inferences seem to be disproportionately applied.

    God bless.
  • T Levis - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Matthew 24, Mark 13,

    Please know "rapture" is not in the Bible, please read & study for yourself, Truth 2Timothy 2:15,

    Job 14:12-14, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, 2Thessalonians 2,

    Revelation 10:7, Revelation 6:9-17, notice Jesus says Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13,

    Hopefully these are helpful
  • Adam - In Reply on Ecclesiasticus 23 - 1 year ago
    Hi Dorthy,

    The Bible says we will sleep until Jesus returns in the following verses and possibly more:

    1 Cor 15:18-20

    1 Thess 4:13-18

    Job 14:12

    Daniel 12:2

    This scripture debunks what the other people are saying about people NOT sleeping to await Jesus. I believe what God says over what man says. Don't believe what I say either, but just look at God's truth and decide. But when I read these verses and pray about it its 100% clear what it means to me.

    Those claiming immediate heaven may require ignoring these 4 verses and choosing only 2 scriptures and interpret them too broadly: (1) the one where Paul says he'd "rather" be with the Lord. Paul only states his preference. I prefer to be with the Lord too, but that doesn't automatically mean 100% of all people forever will skip judgement and be in heaven immediately. And (2) the verse about Jesus telling the criminal on this day he'll be in paradise doesn't automatically mean 100% of all people will have this, and doesn't invalidate the other 4 verses where it clearly says we'll "sleep" awaiting Jesus, and paradise is a different word than heaven and some think it might even be a place of waiting.

    Suggest just following the scriptures and praying for wisdom and understanding rather than believing any unscriptural opinions. God bless.

    The same topic is also discussed here and probably other places too:

    Link
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply on James 1 - 1 year ago
    Giannis,

    Part 2

    Scripture describes death as sleep and the grave/hell is our home until Jesus returns and releases us from the pains of death, Acts 2:24, and the hope we have, Rom. 8:11. We see in Psalm 6:5 Job 14:12-14 Job 17:13-16. When a person dies, he "lies down" in death and does not arise out of that sleep until his regeneration at the resurrection. Psalm 89:48 Psalm 115:17 Ecclesiastes 9:5-10.

    Jesus said this referring to eternal life, Matthew 16:26. Sory for being wordy but I hope this sort of explains my understanding. If our soul is immortal, Luke 16 is a real story, I believe scripture is clear, our soul is us and is mortal, there would be nothing to resurrect. Where would be victory over the grave and death? 1 Cor. 15:54-55 1 Cor. 15:14.

    Jesus's soul along with his body was as He said of Jonah/Jonas, Matt. 12"40. In Acts 2:22-35 Jesus was not left in Hell and did not see corruption, in vs. 24 God loosed the pains of death because Jesus was sinless, and death had to let go.

    1 Peter 3:18-20 is hard, we have spirits in prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah, and the waters of the flood compared to the baptizing waters saving not washing away the filth of the flesh but for the conscience toward God. Our conscience, our hard drive our testimony, 2 Cor.1:12 tells us with the help of the Holy Spirit if we are good to go and it is pure.

    There is no clear indication of when Jesus did this so to say it was when He was in the tomb would be just an opinion.

    Spirits in prison from Noah's time building the ark? Why that time and not all the time up to His resurrection? I may be wrong, but I do not know of the dead being called spirits and being in prison, but the angels who left their first estate are locked in chains of darkness. Revelation gives another look at what that prison may be. This one will be full of opinions that would need setting at a table discussion, so I will leave this one to your understanding.

    See part 3
  • Adam - In Reply on Revelation 22 - 1 year ago
    Sleep:

    Daniel 12:2

    Job 14:12

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    1 Corinthians 15:18-20

    Matthew 9:24

    Hello, the Bible says when we die we will enter a state to await Jesus's return then will face judgment all together. It's called judgment day. Matthew 12:36, Hebrews 9:27. There's no verse saying people get to skip this. There's no verse saying that all people go to heaven instantly, only to later travel back to earth into your body, then meet Jesus in the air, then to only go back to judgment after you've already been in heaven. It's not scriptural or logical and seems to require misinterpreting the following 2 verses, by cherry picking and broadly interpreting it as if it automatically represents all people and all circumstances.

    "absent with body present with Lord" isn't in the Bible. That phrase has been changed from 2 Corinthians 5:8 where Paul said he would "rather" be absent from the body, and present with the Lord. He didn't say in 100% of all cases when people die that 100% of the time they will be "immediately" with the Lord, regardless. Paul was only stating his preference. It doesn't mean Hitler and other mass murderers are with the Lord right now, simply because of this one verse.

    Second, people often quote the verse about the man on the cross that Jesus said would be in "paradise" on that day as support. But Jesus didn't say 100% of all people, from this moment onward will 100% go to heaven, and zero people going to hell including Hitler? Jesus has the power to make exceptions and take people to heaven, but the word paradise is not necessarily the same as heaven. Some believe this word means a waiting area for the dead.

    Lastly, these are only 2 verses requiring creative interpretation, but at least 5 verses say we'll be sleeping are straightforward. Which is true? Bible says all will be judged, not just some. So, believing people go immediately to heaven without waiting on the Lord, and skipping judgment doesn't align with the other scripture either.
  • Adam - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Jesus is powerful enough to make exceptions to whomever He wants, but He didn't say all thieves on crosses from now on will instantly go to heaven, or all criminals will go to heaven instantly upon death, or everyone death row will automatically go to heaven, or all Christians will go to heaven, or that all people will go to heaven instantly upon death. No, He only said to the one person next to Him that he's be in "paradise." The other thief didn't receive this.

    Secondly, paradise could be a different place than heaven. Some think it may be a place for souls to wait until Jesus's return and judgment then salvation. That would make more logical sense, because Jesus said the dead will rise at that time to meet Jesus in the air then be judged. It doesn't make sense for anyone to skip judgment and go to heaven when they haven't even been judged yet, only to go back to earth in their body and repeat the process. The Bible says "all will be judged" on a particular day.

    I personally believe what the Bible says in these verses:

    Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
  • T. Levis - In Reply - 2 years ago
    I believe it was to clearly point out the fulfillment of Prophecy. Please see:

    Son of David prophecy : 1Kings 9:5, Jeremiah 33:17, 2Chronicles 7:18, Psalms 132:11,

    The coming promise of deliverance : Jeremiah 23:5, Jeremiah 33:15, proclaimed: Matthew 22:24,43,44,45, Matthew 1:1,

    Luke 18:38, some identified JESUS as by different names for significance to themselves, healer, deliverer

    Son of GOD : Genesis 6:2,4, Daniel 3:25, Matthew 8:29, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 27:54, Mark 1:1, Luke 1:35, Romans 8:14, Matthew 11:27,

    Son of Man : prophecy : Daniel 7:13-14, Revelation 1, Genesis 3:15, Ezekiel 30:1-4, Job 25:4-6, Job 35:8-16, Matthew 24:30, proclaimed : Mark 14:21, John 12, Matthew 11:19,

    Additionally he was called the BRANCH : Job 14:7, Psalms 80:15, Isaiah 11:1, Isaiah 14:19, Jeremiah 23:5, Zechariah 3:8, Zechariah 6:12, proclamed: John 15,

    Also "shall be called Nazarene " Matthew 2:23,

    Hopefully this is helpful
  • Adam - In Reply on 1 Thessalonians 1 - 2 years ago
    Hi Naomi,

    There was just a discussion related to this:

    Link

    I'm sure there's been many others in the past too if you do an advanced search for it.

    The Bible says when we die we will enter a state to await Jesus's return then will face judgment all together. It's called judgment day. Matthew 12:36, Hebrews 9:27. There's no verse saying you get to skip this, and nothing saying you go to heaven then go back to earth into your body, only to go back to judgment after you've already been in heaven.

    Daniel 12:2

    Job 14:12

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    1 Corinthians 15:18-20

    Matthew 9:24

    Those who believe in instant heaven involves misinterpreting 2 key verses: 1. Misquoting Paul when he said he'd "rather" be in heaven (those sleeping in the grave haven't necessarily departed from their old bodies yet anyway), 2. Thief on cross when Jesus said that day he'd be in "paradise". Most ignore all the other verses above saying we will await Jesus's return, then have a day of judgment. God bless.
  • Adam - In Reply on 1 Thessalonians 4 - 2 years ago
    I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint to the absent with body present with Lord phrase.

    First, it doesn't say that in the Bible. That phrase is actually from 2 Corinthians 5:8 where Paul said he would "rather" be absent from the body, and present with the Lord. He didn't say in 100% of all cases when people die that 100% of the time they will be "immediately" with the Lord. Paul was stating his preference. It doesn't mean Hitler and other mass murderers are with the Lord right now, simply because of this one verse.

    Second, people often quote the verse about the man on the cross that Jesus said would be in "paradise" on that day as support. But Jesus didn't say 100% of all people, from this moment onward will 100% go to heaven, and zero people going to hell including Hitler? Jesus has the power to make exceptions and take people to heaven, but the word paradise is not necessarily the same as heaven. Some believe this word means a waiting area for the dead.

    Lastly, there are many more Bible verses indicating that the dead are 'sleeping' and are awaiting the Lord to meet in the air and then face judgment. It says all will be judged, not just some. So, believing people go immediately to heaven without waiting on the Lord, and skipping judgment doesn't align with the other scriptures. God bless.

    Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
  • Adam - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hello Kuhnemd,

    It seems like you labeled people who believe the Bible as being in one of these groups, which could be perceived as an disrespectful attack. You wrote "The concept of "soul sleep" is not biblical. ", but sleep while awaiting Jesus's return and judgment is Biblical if that's what the Bible says. And this is what the Bible says:

    Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    The scripture you quoted about sleep and awaiting judgment supports it, and the scripture you used to support your belief of going immediately to heaven doesn't actually support it. You then misquoted Paul 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 when he said he would "rather" be in heaven than on Earth. Philippians 1:23 says he has a "desire" to depart, not that 100% of all people go immediately to be with the Lord. Thought I would explain that for the benefit of others who may be viewing this so they are not mislead. This is not a salvation issue, but it's hard to see scripture being distorted and not mention it. Normal Bible readers who aren't in any of the groups you mention can believe what God's Word says about sleep. If it says it, and it does, then I believe it. I do not believe man's different ideas about the subject, only God's. God bless.
  • Richard H Priday on Job 14 - 2 years ago
    There are great truths here in Job; proported to be the oldest narrative in scripture; largely held to be written by Moses. The subject of the afterlife is in great detail here. The perspective of the soul leaving the body after death (v. 10); and the concept of sheol are mentioned. In his compromised state; Job is convinced; it seems that he has no hope as those who would go to the place of torment; it would seem. In reality; since he was a man of God he would be where Lazarus went; a place of comfort or "Abraham's bosom" in the paradise section. Instead; Job sees his transgressions as it were sealed up (v. 17); and his flesh having pain; and his soul within him mourn AFTER death; it would appear after he is "sent away" v. 20. This looks much like the land of darkness and chaos in Job 12:25; and verse 24 is much like Ezekiel in description of the kings in the underworld as well. Verse 14 and 15 give a hope of his "change" and for the wrath to be past in v. 13 is similar to Daniel speaking of the Resurrection after the time of Jacob's trouble. Whether the O.T. saints are resurrected after the rapture of the church; and such timing is too much to get into here.

    Job later states that in his flesh; he shall see God ( Job 19:26).

    In these passages; declarations of truth during unbearable suffering give a lesson for saints today to do the same. This also was the case when Christ was suffering before His glorious resurrection. Trust in God must override everything else; for He is faithful; even when we are not.
  • GiGi again - In Reply on Genesis 2 - 2 years ago
    Also look at

    Job 8:9

    Job 14:2

    Ps. 39:5, 11

    Ps. 102:11
  • T. Levis - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Not sure who had answered & given scripture, but hopefully I can help.

    Matthew 8,

    Matthew 8:4, 1st "Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man;" why._._ Mark 5:24, Mark 3:7-10, John 6:15, John 7:3-8, John 6:2,26, John 12:37,

    2nd part of Matthew 8:4, gift to the priests Moses commanded, Leviticus 13,

    3rd part of Matthew 8:4 for a testimony to them, prophecy fulfilling, Isaiah 53, Psalms 22, Job 14:7, Isaiah 11:1, Zechariah 3:8-9, Jeremiah 33:15, John 15:4,

    Matthew 8:11-12 = Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 2:2, Matthew 27:11, Romans 1:6,

    Matthew 8:17, Isaiah 53,

    Matthew 8:22, Luke 20:38,

    Matthew 8:24-27, Luke 8:22-25,

    Matthew 8:28-34, Mark 5:1-20, Luke 8:27-39,

    Hopefully these are helpful
  • Adam - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Dear Richard,

    I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint to the absent with body present with Lord phrase.

    First, it doesn't say that in the Bible. That phrase is actually from 2 Corinthians 5:8 where Paul said he would "rather" be absent from the body, and present with the Lord. He didn't say in 100% of all cases when people die that 100% of the time they will be "immediately" with the Lord, regardless. If it was the second phrase it would be clear what it means, but all it means is Paul stating his preference. It certainly doesn't mean Hitler and other mass murderers are with the Lord right now, simply because of this one verse.

    Second, people often quote the verse about the man on the cross that Jesus said would be in "paradise" on that day as support. But Jesus didn't say 100% of all people, from this moment onward will 100% go to heaven, and zero people going to hell. And the word paradise is not necessarily the same as heaven. Some believe this is a waiting area for the dead.

    Lastly, there are many more Bible verses indicating that the dead are 'sleeping' and are awaiting the Lord to meet in the air and then face judgment. It says all will be judged, not just some. So, believing people go immediately to heaven without waiting on the Lord, and skipping judgment doesn't align with the other scriptures.

    Matthew 12:36, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15 - People are all judged on the same day. Lots of people seen in the same place.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says the dead will rise and those living will meet the Lord in the air. Would it make sense for someone to go heaven, then back to earth to rise up, then back again to heaven?

    When people die they 'sleep' awaiting the Lord's return as it indicates in Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hey Jeff,

    It will be hard to find, the closest you will get is a parable in Luke 16. If you read the chapter and the context it is against the love of money and wealth. When Jesus first came the Greek influence was widespread many were Hellenized.

    When our spirit leaves our body and goes to intermediate heaven does not come from scripture, it comes from Plato. His definition of death is the separation of the soul from the body. Hades the Underworld where the dead went, a subterranean region, the world of the dead where all souls passed after their time on earth, Elysium was paradise.

    If you look for scripture you will find sleep in the earth until the resurrection, Job 7:21 Job 14:12-14 Job 17:13-16 Psalm 89:48 Psalm 115:17 Daniel 12:2 Ecclesiastes 9:10

    God bless,

    RLW
  • T Levis - In Reply - 2 years ago
    I hope these are helpful Genesis 6:3, Job 14:14, 1Peter 4:2,

    Ecclesiastes 3:1-8,
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply on Matthew 1 - 2 years ago
    Hey Rick,

    Death is something we all will face; many believe our body dies and our soul lives on. Is our soul immortal? Can we take 2 Corinthians 5:8 when we die our soul leaves our body and we are present with the Lord? Some define death as a separation of the soul from the body. Does that come from scripture? I have not found that in scripture.

    It comes from Greek philosophy of Plato. He wrote the body is a prison for the soul and viewed death as the means of freedom for the soul. The philosophy of death started blending in the church in the second century and those good souls go to heaven and the bad goes to hell and more. Many see the parable in Luke 16:19-31 as fitting this. If you read the chapter Jesus is talking about the unrighteous love mammon and neglect the true riches.

    My understanding from scripture every part of us is mortal and when we die, we sleep in the dust, Job 14:12-14, Job 17:13-16, Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 until resurrection. When this mortal puts on immortality 1 Corinthians 15:52-58, and we will be absent from this flesh body. Then those that are Christs will be judged and receive our rewards. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 22:12 that is our hope, 1 Thessalonians 2:19

    We will sleep in the dust, Daniel 12:2, 1Theselonians 4:14 and this is not from heaven, it is from around the world to meet Jesus in the air coming down to Israel the start the 1000 years at His coming. Matthew 24:31 Zechariah 14:4.

    This is my understanding of scripture.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Chris - In Reply on Job 14 - 2 years ago
    Thank you brother T. Levis. I think we all have something to offer, from how we understand the Word to how the Spirit leads us to learn & share. You too, have blessed many with your many Scriptures you share as an answer to other peoples' enquiries - for God's Word speaks more correctly & directly than what we might offer. Blessings.
  • T. Levis - In Reply on Job 14 - 2 years ago
    Great answer Chris, as usual.

    Just felt like I should say, thank you for your faithfulness to GOD's WORD & helping all of us, with those answers.
  • Chris - In Reply on Job 14 - 2 years ago
    Hi James. Thanks for that clarification. It all depends on whose perspective we adopt. From a human standpoint, I would say that there are degrees of sin that we can commit; one could place murder, rape, or child molestation at the top of our list, with gossip, gluttony, or greed at the bottom end - all depending on the effect our sins would have on others or ourselves.

    However, from God's perspective, all of mankind are sinners & culpable because of our thoughts, words or actions resulting from that sin nature within us. So whether the 'worst of sinners' as Hitler & those of his ilk, or 'least of sinners' as one doing a charitable work but for selfish, self-gain motives, all are seen as guilty before an Holy God.

    We can think of Jesus' instruction on this in Luke 13:1-5 when He dealt with the gradation of sinners. Were those Galileans who were murdered by Pilate any greater as sinners than others who didn't suffer like them? Or, those who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them & killed them but sparing others living there in Jerusalem - were those who died more sinful than those who were spared? Jesus' answer to them was the same on both counts: "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Jesus' answer was that, 'to God any sin is sin, but it's repentance that makes the difference to God, & under the Cross, God grants us forgiveness & a new life on Earth & in Heaven, in exchange'.

    So, as humans having empathy for others, we might grade sins according to their impact & suffering on others, but in God's Eyes, sin (any sin) is unacceptable & deserving of His Punishment ( Romans 6:20-23). But in Jesus there is hope for all.
  • Reply to Job 14 - In Reply on Job 14 - 2 years ago
    James All sin is broken fellowship with God, but depending on the type of sin depends on how much you affected.

    Example if you would one time get drunk that's sin. But if you decide to continually get drunk now your out of

    fellowship affect is much more constant and can lead to early death, while totally negating your fellowship with God.

    This can be said for anything out of balance, so its best just endeavor not to because no matter what you will be

    spiritually affected and infected so to speak. Also good luck with answer to prayer.
  • James mccoy - In Reply on Job 14 - 2 years ago
    I meant SIN Is one Sin worse than another.


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