Discuss Hebrews 12


Hebrews 12 KJV Bible discussions
 
  • Richard H Priday - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Romans 8:16 says: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

    Hebrews 12:6 states: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

    Matthew 5:44-46 says

    44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

    45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

    These verses bring a clear understanding of those who are His children and possess His Spirit from those who don't. We can't love our enemies in our own strength in the same way we can in Him; but perhaps the other side of the argument should be examined; we cannot hate our sin; our former "good deeds" and appreciate the verse in Jeremiah 17:9 about our hearts being "deceitfully wicked" apart from a revelation from God through His Spirit. This truth results in a response of repentance whose origin comes from God; and results in actions coming from a new heart or nature; rather than just outer actions in some attempt to be righteous in our own strength. Atheists can often be more "moral" than we are in charitable giving; for example but they cannot without self righteousness. Thus; no amount of penance; fasting; etc. can save us. Jesus begins the work and to those He has called and chosen He insures that they are sanctified and glorified after being saved as we see from Romans 8:30.

    Other Gospel verses show that His sheep hear His voice. We have true love for other believers if we are saved as well as a true love for Christ and we trust Him as well and have Him not just as Savior but Lord and Master as well.

    The enemy will often convince us otherwise but believers have overcome the world.
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Thanks for your consideration of my reply MotherMac. At least we are referring to the same passage in Hebrews. You wrote that you saw in Hebrews 12:1 a reference to both 'a carnal & divine view of Christ'. I re-looked at the verse & still unable to fit such views of Christ in there.

    If you wish, could you expand your thoughts a little on your statement, so we might consider the verse in a different way? There is always the danger of going too far by searching for a deeper or hidden meaning, making the verse say something not intended; and to this we must be careful or else we do great disservice to God's Word, to our own understanding of it, & misdirecting others. So I would be very keen to hear your thoughts on this so that I can try to search for something that you're reading or sensing in there. Thank you.
  • Chris - In Reply - 1 month ago
    Hello MotherMac. I'm unsure whether you're addressing someone specifically here, or who the "two (?) clouds of witnesses' might be you're referring to, but just to throw an answer in here: the 'great cloud of witnesses' (as referred to in Hebrews 12:1), are those faithful witnesses mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11.

    So when I read Hebrews 12:1, I always get the sense that since those who have gone on way before us & stand in the Presence of God, their lives & faithfulness, in spite of many odds against them, should also be an impetus for us to 'run the race of Christian living & testimony'; a race, not who gets there first, but one that requires patience & endurance reaching the finishing line & the prize - just as those of old did.

    But the Hebrews writer doesn't want us to only focus on those saints of old, but to look to Jesus, the Author & Finisher of our Faith (the One Who completed and perfected our faith before God): for He alone is the reason for our salvation, our power & joy to live this life, & Who will receive us into Glory at the appointed time. That 'cloud of witnesses' might have had a good testimony for us to be encouraged to do likewise, but only Jesus could author saving faith & perfect it & us before God by virtue of His great Sacrifice for us & the supreme example He set before us in godly living.
  • Richard H Priday - 1 month ago
    On Christian music and idolotry:

    The second and third lines in Chris Tomlin's song "Good Good Father" state:

    But I've heard the tender whisper of love in the dead of night

    And You tell me that You're pleased and that I'm never alone

    David Crowder's song "He really loves us" has this in the third line

    "There is no judgment"

    And Danny Gokey's song "Love God Love People" says at the end of the fourth stanza

    "Love God and love People" (no brainer).

    Finally there is the song "What would Jesus do" states in the 11th Stanza

    "What would Jesus do

    He would love first..etc."

    The first question here is what is God's love? There is nothing in any of these songs that show any differentiation of God's love from that of man. Assuming that God never has anything negative to say goes against the verses that state God chastises anone He loves and we are illegitimate sons otherwise (see Hebrews 12:6; 12:8). To say there is no judgment is only true as to a believer's standing at the Bema Seat Judgment and missing the Great White Throne condemnation. We are judged according to 2 Corinthians 5:10 and be judged as to works done for Him; good or bad. If we aren't one of His own we are judged and condemned already ( John 3:18).

    No one should argue as to a Christian demonstrating love and patience; but that doesn't mean that we should stand for hypocrisy within the House of God; or societal evils such as abortion without sounding the trumpet as a watchman to avoid the condemnation warned of in Ezekiel 3:18. But such exhortations seem to be missing entirely in today's Christian songs; whether it is warning of the deceptiveness of Satan or sin itself; or the Tribulation to come or hell itself without repentance. Anyone on this forum who wishes to rebut that statement let me know; perhaps there are some independent artists I should be made aware of that I haven't heard lately.

    Thus; artists are idolized saying what people want to hear and are "Christian" by name only.
  • Richard H Priday - 1 month ago
    God's apparent contradictions: Examining Psalm 107 compared to Proverbs 1:26-28 and like passages

    We see in the first example God's patience when people were about to head to destruction; either physical or spiritual death or both how throughout several earlier Biblical events God's people were delivered and rescued when at wits end and they called upon His name. The second passage and others such as we find in Jeremiah and Micah to name just two show where God will not hear; and in the case of this section of Proverbs mocks them in their calamity.

    One can generalize of how God chastises all those He loves such as we see in Proverbs 3:12 (just a couple chapters later) and Hebrews 12:6. These techniques were primarily for the nation of Israel in the Old Testament and His church today. Exceptions exist; however such as those who offered profane fire before the Lord in Numbers 16 who deliberately rebelled against God's chosen prophet (Moses) and suffered immediate judgment. Moses surely wasn't the only one either who was saved but couldn't enter the Promised Land (only Caleb and Joshua could from the original generation along with their children).

    In the case of Pagan nations; such as in Psalm 2 and examples of wholesale slaughter in the Old Testament of the nations around Israel were a result of their vile abominations; with child sacrifice being a top thing causing wrath no doubt. Psalm 2 is a parallel to Revelation 19 where those having taken the Mark of the Beast are led by the 3 frog like spirits coming out of Satan's evil "trinity" to be led to Armageddon to fight Christ (although there may be some trickery at first to convince them that they are fighting the last battle for control over the earth by destroying the armies coming against Antichrist.)

    This gives us assurance that those who are His elect will be saved; even if chastisement shortens their earthly existence ( 1 Cor. 11:30). This is the difference between those He hears or not.
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Thank you Brother Giannis. Hebrews 12:16,17 was very well exegeted.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Hello Rainwalker

    Hebrews 12:7, "17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."

    It says " though he sought IT carefully with tears" What do you think that "IT" is refering to?

    Question. If one repents is there any case God rejects them? Answer. No, God always forgives Actually this is what God wants us to do when we sin. Next question. If we want to repent and seek to do it, is there any case that God rejects us? Is there any case that we want and have decided in our minds to repent and still not being able to repent? Really our heart is not that easy to come to repentance some times but when I have decided that in my mind then God forgives me at that very moment. Actually God will always gives us His grace to overcome our stony heart when we have decided to condemn our actions. So next question. Why was Esau rejected although he seeked with tears to find forgiveness? Well because simply he didn't ask for forgiveness. That "IT" is refering to the " inheritance" not to forgiveness or repentance. So the verse in simple words reads as " Esau was rejected by God when he wanted to get the inheritance because he didn't repent, although he wanted to get the inheritance very much(with tears)". So don't worry. When God sees that we condemn in our mind something we did, He always runs to our help and ease us to repent, if we have problem doing it, and He gives us His grace because He wants to get us to very end, the kingdom of Heaven. Also in NT there are no consequences like with David in the OT, when we sin and repent. It is like we have never done anything, God forgets it and He never punishes, no way.. GBU
  • Chris - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Hello Bmccaugh58. The answers to your questions are actually found throughout the Bible (from Genesis to Revelation), because the Bible essentially shows us how far mankind has fallen away from his Creator (because of sin), the repercussions we face from living in such a sinful state, & what God has done to offer correction & help, or else, judgement. So, one merely has to read through the Bible (even in your daily devotions/readings) & will see how people, yes all of us, have done wrong towards God & man & what subsequently entails from that. Some will learn & be corrected & then restored - others will persist in their evil ways & face God's Judgement.

    So, here are some passages to start you off, but in your reading of the Bible, God's Spirit will alert you to what you seek or even where some action needs to be taken in your own life.

    For "Consequences", see: Genesis 2:15-17; Genesis 3:16-19; Deuteronomy 28:1,2,15; 1 Kings 11:9-11; Job 4:8,9; Isaiah 59:2; Jeremiah 17:9,10; Matthew 27:3-5; Romans 6:23; Romans 13:4; Galatians 6:7,8; 1 Timothy 5:8; James 2:10; Revelation 20:12-15.

    For "Correction", see: Proverbs 22:6; Proverbs 29:15; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Galatians 6:1; Ephesians 6:4; 2 Timothy 4:2; Hebrews 12:5-11; Revelation 3:19.

    These are just a very few Scriptures, reminding us that there will always be consequences for our actions, not just in our dealings with each other, but more importantly, as we stand before God. But this God of Love always gives sinful wayward man an escape route, from a life of sin to a life of holiness & love - and His Name is Jesus.
  • Jordyn - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Lee the Follower:

    Your getting closer to understanding.

    You are right, the old (wine bottle) has passed away, and YOU ARE the NEW (bottles of heaven).

    Job 38:37 Who can number the CLOUDS (of heaven) .... Mark 14:62 ..... Hebrews 12:1 ...... IN WISDOM? or who can stay the bottles of heaven.

    You DIED with Christ, but only Christ arose, YOU were a JOINT HEIR with Christ in the Kingdom of God, Christ is the kingdom of God.

    You DIED, only Christ is alive and YOU are the Body of that LIFE, as Christ is the BODY of the LIFE of his Father.

    You said you want to lead a LIFE of OBEDIENCE, You DIED, ONLY Christ exist, he is the LIFE, and you the Body, He CAUSES you to do his WILL, Christ, The Body, walks in total obedience to his Father's Life (Spirit); therefore, if and when you come to TRUTH, you walk in total obedience.

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is BORN of God (resurrected as ONE FLESH), doth not commit sin; for HIS SEED (Christ) remains IN HIM, and he CANNOT SIN, because he is BORN of God (resurrected as ONE FLESH with Christ).

    You obey and honour God when you BELIEVE his words.

    God Bless YOU!
  • Richard H Priday - 4 months ago
    Love of God: Sanctification

    No discipline is enjoyable at the time according to Hebrews 12:11. It leads to good fruits according to the passage; however.

    I have stated repeatedly that verses indicating chastising all He loves as well as suffering for His Name's sake are both scriptural statements in regard to the fate of those who are saved. (see Philippians 1:29 and dozens of other verses). So in some sense we have died with Christ but are being crucified daily. WE are the ones where there has to be progressive sanctification; Christ Himself only died once for the propitiation of our sins; in other words He didn't need being perfect the process of sanctification before glorification.

    Just as the conversion of a serial killer may appear more dramatic than say a stay at home housewife; the sanctification may also appear so. We see Christ tell Paul how much he will have to suffer for His Name's sake ( Acts 9:16). God has His own unique calling on our lives therefore different things necessary in our sanctification process. Nonetheless; changes must occur.

    Once we die or are raptured and called home in glory then of course the process is completed; and the rewards commensurate with our service or lack thereof. This means we should strive to win the prize; but that is involved with a combination of learning how to submit daily to the Lord as well as buffeting ourselves with self discipline; someone He can trust to honor His name; and a servant who obeys because of love for their Master; Lord and Savior.

    Sanctification therefore means various things; changing our daily habits and routines; changing the focus of our career and recreational time; and for some means a change of venue; or vocation. It is the small things that add up to make one prepared for the big; the lives of Christ and the Apostles show how they faced martyrdom after daily dying to self. Paul had suffered greatly and preferred to be with the Lord but not before the time ( Phil. 1:23)
  • Oseas - In Reply - 5 months ago
    DrCharlesSaw

    You say"the third heaven is the dwelling of God'',but what does the Word of GOD say? Ps.148:4-Praise GOD,ye heavens of heavens(highest heavens),and ye waters that be above the heavens(peoples,and nations,and multitudes of all tongues; so,those which will be above the heavens are them which will be caught up out of the FIRE and be placed in the 3rd Heaven,for the 1st and 2nd heavens will be DISSOLVED- 2Peter 3:12-13,as follow:

    12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of GOD(the LORD's Day),wherein the HEAVENS(the 1st and 2nd heavens-THE CELESTIAL ENVIRONMENT OF THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS)being on FIRE shall be DISSOLVED,and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?How?Yes, how?It is revealed and explained in Isaiah 33:10-14 combined with Hebrews 12:29 and 10:27.Take a look.

    13Nevertheless we,according to GOD's promise,look for New Heavens(the next is the 3rd heaven- Luke 20:35-36.Take a look) and a new earth(new Israel),wherein dwels righteousness.

    As you know,the Word is GOD,self-executing. Romans 9:28-31:

    -->28For GOD WILL FINISH the work(the finish of GOD's work is from now on according to the WRATH OF GOD described in Revelation 11:15-18),and He shall cut it short in RIGHTEOUSNESS: because a SHORT WORK will the Lord make upon the earth(even now, from now on, in the last week divided in two halfs of severe and terrible chastisements),as JESUS warned in Matthew 24:22,saying:"Except those days should be SHORTENED,there should no flesh be saved:but for the elect's sake those days shall be SHORTENED

    Verse 29-And as Esaias said before,Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,we had been as Sodoma(as is written in Luke 17:29-30),and been made like unto Gomorrha

    30What shall we say then?That the Gentiles,which followed not after righteousness,have attained to righteousness,even the righteousness which is of faith

    31But Israel,which followed after the Law of righteousness,has not attained to the law of righteousness

    That said Get ready
  • Jordyn - In Reply - 5 months ago
    Oseas:

    Revelation is very symbolic, but it is also the GOSPEL, the revealing of Jesus Christ.

    Until the spirit causes you to SEE and UNDERSTAND that the Word of God is talking to the person reading it, and that person reading those words Is the most likely the SYMBOL your reading about, you will stay in darkness.

    Revelation is addressing the church, but that church is not the RCC or the Baptist, of any other denomination church.

    Your the CHURCH, and WE are riding the beast with the name WHORE written in our head.

    We blaspheme HIS NAME every day by not believing what he SAYS.

    You were BAPTISED by his resurrection INTO HIS NAME.

    Revelation 21:22 And I saw no TEMPLE (church) therein, because the Lord God Almighty and the LAMB are the TEMPLE (CHURCH) thereof.

    2 Corinthians 6:16 .....for ye are TEMPLE of the LIVING GOD ....

    You and Christ BECAME ONE: BY HIS RESURRECTION.

    A beast has NO KNOWLEDGE of God; we ride the beast, until: We are BORN AGAIN by the words (truth and knowledge) of God.

    Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns (the power of God, given to you by the truth and knowledge of God)) that thou sawest on the beast, THESE (the NEW CREATION) shall HATE the WHORE, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall ear her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    Hebrews 12:29 Our God is a consuming fire ..... you WERE made ONE with Christ .... you are in, and have become the lake of fire.

    Hebrews 1:7 ...and maketh his ministers A FLAME of FIRE .....

    Isaiah 9:20 .... and shall EVERY MAN eat the FLESH of his own right arm ....

    God BLESS YOU!

    .
  • Frankie J - In Reply - 5 months ago
    Hi Jesse

    No, not in the frame of what you're implying.

    Quoting you

    There is a definition that's given to us here. It says we are in the flesh if we don't have Christ. If we are not "born again" we have an illegitimate claim at being a true believer.

    Whereas, those who are born again do belong to Christ & has been gather unto the Gardener.

    Yet those who are in the work of sanctification of the Spirit.

    They are true believers too, & belong to Christ, having received of God the gift of faith, from hearing the Word of God in their hearts to the working out of their salvation,& by that gift of faith, they receive ever increasing measures of His Spirit Gal 3:2

    Hebrews 12:1 wherefore lay aside the sin that doth so easily beset us. They believe & are in the work of regeneration.

    Hebrews 12:4,5,6,7,8 Holy Spirit calls them His children & He's their Father, they belong to Him

    Hebrews 12:9-11 afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby, & why? Because they have become partakers of His holiness, the Divine Nature

    So in the cleansing work of making holy, their growing from faith to faith & from glory to glory being brought to the baptismal of the Holy Spirit to be dead unto sin, born again of the incorruptible Seed.

    Friend,

    The path is straight & the gate is narrow indeed that leads to life & few there be that find it, for some then, its to narrow for them to enter. Yet our Leader has plainly mark the path for us, He takes us by the hand & leads us in the very same path that He Himself walked in, wherein He received of the Father all His glory, & so shall we, for all that would believe all things are possible. Isa 42:16 the just Rom 1:17

    Its not from the studying of the letter, as one would for any other endeavor, by the art of human science, but a total resolution of one spirit to empty oneself & be guided & taught of God's Spirit John 1:9 Titus 2:11 within one's own conscience. The Immanuel of God, who is within us.
  • Frankie J - In Reply - 5 months ago
    Malachi 3:3

    Friends, don't turn away from the Lord; Hebrews 12:29

    who in His tender love trys our faith, whether it be birth & grounded in the doctrines of Christ.

    True faith is birth of the Spirit & purifies the heart 1John 3:3 Psalms 24:3,4 Matt 5:8

    If we are experiencing tribulations as define:

    properly a pressing, pressing together, pressure within ,then our Refiner has come near us & we're in the fire being refined of false doctrines, sin or for whatsoever else He purposes are, for even after we are born again of His Spirit, tribulation & suffering continues in the perfecting of our faith, though now for a different purposes.

    we're experiencing Psalms 89:14

    Again, don't turn away from Christ, for He has come nearer to us, to purge out the dross

    Love the Fire, its separates the precious from the vile, let us not hide our head in the darkness of an hole, like an ostrich & say i don't want to talk about it.

    I hope you notice I said, we, us, our, Friends we all begin as miserable sinners, but we don't have to remain sinners.

    Col 1:21,22 lets press towards the high calling in Christ Jesus

    in love & truth
  • Frankie J - In Reply - 6 months ago
    Friend;

    Lev 26:15-21 God is speaking to His people, the history of the children of Israel full of this. 2 Chronicles 7:14 Jeremiah 3:22 Hosea 6:1,2

    Christ brings this into the NT John 12:40 Acts 28:27

    Hebrews 12:5-11 speaking of His children

    He does this in His merciful lovingkindness to us, we being so blinded by the deceitfulness of sin, it must be scourge out, define as "to flog" lit or fig, God as a father chastising and training men as children by affliction,

    Chastisement; Education or training; by implication, disciplinary correction, chastening, instruction, nurture.

    There's two kinds of fear, & many manifestations of each, all grounded in one of the two, godly fear which foundation is grounded in obedient reverential love for God.

    The other, Satan counter part, grounded in disobedience which brings torment, where condemnation & guilt in one's own heart follows them wherever they go, for they have offended the Holy God; they having continue in disobedience to the Grace of God which appears in their hearts.

    God's love in chastising correction, cast this fear & torment out

    & why? John 14:21, which defines love, which makes way for John 14:23 one's habitation becomes a dwelling place for Perfect Love in the work of Sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience & sprinkling of the Blood/Life of Jesus.

    thus "for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.

    Hebrews 12:11 exercising the Grace of God, the Word of Righteousness in discerning between Good & evil,, there's suffering in the Cross to learn righteousness. 1Pet 4:1

    Then we have Job, who God said is perfect, Job 2:3; which trials, suffering & afflictions is of a much higher concept than punishment for disobedience, James 5:11

    Hebrews 11:33 for this purpose "obtain a better resurrection"

    one eighty, you would do well to live out your call name.

    your in darkness, deceived; dwelling, speaking & judging falsely against God

    Ephesians 5:13, therefore, Ephesians 5:14

    In Love & Truth
  • Frankie J - 6 months ago
    Friends

    The Grace of God that appears to all mankind, begotten Paul & he declares in 1Cor 15:10 made what he now is.

    What the Apostles received by the Revelation of Jesus Christ from His Grace appearance, they wrote down in the Epistle's that bares their name, & they believed & attain unto this knowledge by the diligent exercising thereof Hebrews 5:14 Hebrews 12:11 Philippians 3:16

    Here's a small unfolding of His Grace / Light

    They let Patience James 1:4,25 James 5:11 1Pet 5:9,10

    Make you Perfect Hebrews 13:21

    Be ye Perfect Matt 5:48 indicating this perfection is the same as the Father, there's not a different standard of holiness for mankind describe here.

    The angel declared to Mary, Matt 1:21 not in their sin!

    Folks,

    Everything that God does is perfect, do you really believe that He would sent His only begotten Son to suffer all that He did for our sakes, & it not be a perfect restoration for His beloved creations.

    I tell you by the Scriptures, sound reasoning & the Holy Ghost it's goes beyond the state of Adam innocents before he fell

    Rom 6:3-5 the newness of life spoken of here is the likeness of His resurrection life & that is attain by working of His Divine Power 2Pet 1:2-4

    I'm talking Grace, here now in this life. Don't be deceived, it's accompanies all that Christ experience, 1Pet 2:21 this too is apart of being make in His image & likeness, walking as He walk, the Apostles final got it after Pentecost, being baptized unto His death. This is when 1John 1:1-5 truly came into spiritual experiential experience. John 7:17

    John 4:23,24 True worship is doing His will

    & that will is reveal by His Grace / Light appearance in your heart. 2Cor 4:6,7
  • Jordyn - In Reply - 6 months ago
    Brother Giannis:

    John 1:29 ...... Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the SIN of the world.

    Hebrews 12:1 ... an the SIN which doth so easily beset us ......

    What is this singular SIN that so easily besets God's people, and Jesus said he will TAKE AWAY, because his blood covers all other sins.

    John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of SIN.......

    John 16:9 Of SIN, because they BELIEVE NOT .... (the Word of God)......

    Philippians 1:29 ... it is GIVEN TO YOU on the behalf of Christ to BELIEVE

    God Bless YOU!
  • Oseas - In Reply - 6 months ago
    Hi Bennymkje. greettings in Christ JESUS

    Revelation 11 is wonderful and very deeply really. The content of verse 2 was preached two times by JESUS. First in Luke 21:24, 2nd after His ascension-Rev.11:2-and JESUS reveals that the COURT is given unto the Gentiles and(in the FIRST half of the last week, week 70th) the holy city shall they tread under foot 42 months. But I ask, how? Well, the Dragon will give(to the Beast of sea)his Power, and his Seat(in Jerusalem spiritually called Sodom and Egypt), and great Authority.

    Simultaneously,in the other hand,JESUS will give POWER unto His two witnesses,these are the two olive trees,and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth(before the Holy Spirit,Paraclete,Comfort- Jn 16:12-15).wo candlesticks are two Churches-Gentile Church and Jewish Church- Hebrews 12:23.The two olive trees are the two sources of OIL of the two Churches-the OT and NT.JESUS revealed that the two Churches receive Power(verse 6)to shut heaven,that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:and have POWER over waters(over peoples,and nations,and multitudes of all tongues-verse15-18)to turn them to blood,and to smite the earth with all plagues,as often as they will-(The righteous Judgment of GOD-1Cor.6:2-3)-and they shall prophesy ALSO 42 months,equal period the holy city being trodden by the Gentiles.

    The worst will be in the 2nd half of the last week.The Beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit -Rev.13:11-18&Ez.21:25- Matthew 24:15-25- shall make WAR against them(against the two Churches-two candlesticks),and shall overcome them,and kill them-Rev.11:7->END of the OT and NT arrived).They that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another;because these two witness/prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

    But after three days and an half the spirit of life from GOD entered into them,and they stood upon their feet;and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

    continues below
  • GiGi - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Hello Ronald,

    Thanks for your reply and I appreciate the time you took to think about my post.

    I do not think we will come to agreement on this topic, so I will certainly consider what you have posed here.

    As to Hebrews 12:1, this verse about the cloud of witnesses is part of what the author was speaking about the people who had faith in chapter 11. These people were all dead, but the author says that these are who compose this cloud of witnesses, from my understanding.

    I have never read anywhere in Scripture that states that people cease to exist when they die, as Jema seems to say. If there is a verse, I would love to take it under consideration.



    That it is unto each man to die, (physical death) and then comes judgment (then seems to indicate immediately following death.

    Those who believe in Jesus will live, even though they die. John 11:25-26).

    When one dies, their body (which is made of various natural elements) will decompose back into dust).

    One's soul will be with Jesus with consciousness and interaction with God ( Rev. 6:9; 20:4)

    We will not be spirits, but souls. Angels are spiritual beings, we are human beings God made to exist with a spirit, soul, and body.

    The redemption of our bodies will occur at the Resurrection at Jesus' second coming to be united to our soul, and spirit to become fully redeemed.

    The body we had in this life is the body that will be resurrected, just as Jesus was resurrected in the same body he died in.

    Our physical bodies, souls, and spirits will be reunited in this resurrection.

    Our whole self, body, soul, and spirit will be glorified, transformed after our bodies are resurrected.

    We will live forever with God. He will make His throne and dwelling among those who believed in the Son.

    Those who did not believe in the Son will also be resurrected in the same bodies they lived in before death. Their body will be reunited with their souls and be immortal.
  • David0921 - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Chris,

    No apologies necessary. Thanks to you and Jimbob for the 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 12:4 verses.

    One thing I know for a certainty is that God did not choose words or phrases idly as He has wrote the Bible. We must compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible if we hope to come to truth. We must always be willing to examine any understanding we may have in the light of any verse or passage in the Bible that deals with the question at hand.

    God did not write the Bible in a way that it is always easy to come to truth. It is often very difficult. And if we begin to isolate verses and passages from the rest of the Bible or approach a question based on the wisdom of men (let God be True, but every man a liar, Rom 3:4) we can very quickly and easily be led down a wrong path.

    The Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter. And we must always be mindful that it is God Himself who must open our understanding and give us ears to hear as we seek truth from His Holy Word, the Bible. And that He does this on His own timetable and for His own purposes.

    I would need to further study the relationship between Soul and Spirit as God uses these terms throughout the Bible before arriving at a distinction between the two.

    At this point, I don't see anything in these two verses that would change my understanding of 1) the Spiritual condition of Mankind apart from God's mercy in Salvation, nor 2) what happens to a True Believer when they become Born Again, nor 3) what happens to a True Believer when their Body dies Physically, nor 4) what happens to a True Believer at the Resurrection of the Last Day.

    I have stated what I believe God has declared regarding these teachings in many of my comments, along with some of the scriptural references dealing with these questions. All of which are ultimately speaking to aspects of Salvation itself and how God deals with those whom He saves.

  • [Comment Removed]
  • GiGi - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Jema,

    You have presented a reasonable view on this topic, and in many ways, I think it is plausible. However, I am wondering if our body and soul dies and we no longer exist, then who did Jesus preach to in Hades between His death and resurrection? Also, how could Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus in the transfiguration? If Jesus was actually there (since the disciples walked up the mountain with Him and the text say that Jesus' appearance was changed), then it seems that Moses and Elijah were actually there with Jesus as the disciples saw them and heard them speaking with Jesus.

    These two occurrences make me think that our body dies and returns to dust, as that is what is said in Gen. 2:7 and 3:19, but it does not say anything about our soul ceasing to exist. Jesus said that we are to fear the One (God Almighty_ who can destroy both body and soul ( Matt. 10:28) which is the second death of unbelievers, but not believers. In this verse Jesus is speaking of two parts of our being, body is one, and the soul is the other, so it seems that the body can physically die, but not a regenerated soul.

    Another Scripture that makes me think that the soul lives on in the presence of Jesus after death is in Hebrews 12:1 that there is a great cloud of witnesses in heaven who have gone before us in faith.

    And lastly, Jesus said that believers have eternal life and will never die. ( John 11:26) Even though our body dies, our soul lives on because He is the resurrection and the life and those who believe in Him have life even though their body dies, our soul lives in Christ.

    To me, the words of our Lord carry so much weight in regards to what we are to believe. He is the Truth and the Life and what He says will be will be.

    But I truly understand your point of view, but it seems that Jesus differs from you and others here and in your church in regards to this topic.

    I am not trying to be argumentative here, Jema. Just saying that what I know from Scripture differs from you
  • Chris - In Reply - 7 months ago
    I did notice that Jema. In fact, as you know, Jesus repeated this Truth twice (also in John 5:25), where He adds, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, AND NOW IS....". I wonder if Jesus is also referring to one of the great signs at His coming Crucifixion, when He would yield up His Spirit, & when 'the graves were opened, and many of the bodies of the saints which slept arose, & came out of their graves...'. So, two mighty events: at His Crucifixion & then at His Coming. Lifeless, corrupt bodies might lie in the grave, but the spirits of just men made perfect ( Hebrews 12:23) & to the Church of the Firstborn, are promised to live forever in the presence of God their Father.
  • Frankie J - In Reply - 8 months ago
    Dear David0921



    The face value of the statement you quoted does not imply additions or subtraction to the words of God as I previously stated to you, so it was not for face value that you responsed.

    in your apology, you state "if" you misrepresented their beliefs, there's no 'if" to it.

    David your apology is evasive & shifty, then you reinforce your statement of your beliefs, in all this, it makes this attempted apology void. its the same tactics you colored over your erroneous statement of "visions & dream" with GiGi.

    Psalms 15:1-4

    Friend, I been here, God would not let me near Him, the intimacy & closeness that I intensely craved, to really know Him. as a Father knows a son, & son knows his father was shut to me, His all discerning eyes penetrate my thickest covering, I had to come clean every wit, before His wrath was remove & remission of the transgression of granted & fellowship was restored. Hebrews 12:11

    Then came I to a more enlightened understanding of King David prayer, Psalms 51:6 & I rejoice in His judgments for they were meant for my cleansing to bring me back to the intimate fellowship & only became my condemnation when I reject them.

    I learnt by experience that the difference between "all that are call & the few that are chosen", is how we respond to Him in these crucial moments in our relationship with Him & our fellow human beings.

    I pray that this helps in making a clean break, remember who we war against Ephesians 6:12 who seek to rule & reign in the hearts & minds of mankind, they have been doing this for a long time, & to be honest, if we look at the condition of the world & church today, they're pretty good at it, so we must not remain ignorant of their devices.

    A love for the Truth in the inward parts alone defeats them, who is Christ, the Armor, Wisdom & Power of God.

    Proverbs 18:12

    In love & Truth
  • Richard H Priday - 8 months ago
    23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

    24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

    25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

    Further insight. As Ephesians 1:6 states we are to be made acceptable in the beloved. As far as us "accepting" Christ; that is not Biblical as James 2:19 warns about God. Christ is more than Savior; He is Lord and Master; whether we acknowledge it or not there are only two alternatives ( Matthew 21:44). His Sheep hear His voice; the goats do not. ( John 10:27).

    This "committing" of men it would seem would involve the Godhead living within someone and being sealed with the Spirit. It would involve chastising which Hebrews 12:8 in King James brings out pretty strongly in regard to those not in Christ who are "bastards."

    Therefore Jesus had to do constant "weeding" out; and this would involve challenging statements; parables; and other means.

    Jesus in Luke 16:15 warned that what was esteemed or honorable among men was an abomination to God. That is different than what Jesus Himself did when He was praised in Luke 2:52 for His growth in wisdom and stature in terms of how He "gained favor" at that time. That shows His humility in the 30 or so years; taking up the majority of His earthly life being submissive to His parents (unlike the Pharisees who found ways through their religious piety to disrespect parents for the sake of their own material gain).

    Jesus loved His own so much that He made sure that He was the atoning sacrifice on the cross through His own volition; and death could not hold Him. (see John 10:18). It was a miracle in itself that He survived all the attempts on His life (including Gethsemene) through supernatural assistance so that He could make it to the cross to die at the set time and place. No one in scripture is said to be amazed at these acts
  • Frankie J - In Reply - 8 months ago
    2 of 2

    He further open me, I began practicing being still & quiet before the Lord & waiting upon Him, during one of these exercises, He opened my understanding concerning these 2 seeds within me, You remember the cartoon where there would be an angel on the right shoulder & a devil represent on the left shoulder of the cartoonist, the angel would encourage him to do what is right & good, & the devil influence him to what was evil & bad. Well this is what actually goes on within our hearts & who we obey is whom we serve & who temple we are, I always thought it was me, myself thinking these thoughts whether good or bad, I did not comprehend that I was just a vessel to be move & animated by these two great powers of the universe. There's no me, myself & I, it either Light or darkness animating us.

    After this revelation I was convinced & start exercising this Word of Righteousness in the discerning between good & evil within. The heart is the birthing room of thoughts, as they are birth & brought forth we become conscious & aware of them. Thus Paul says 2Cor 10:3-6 Ephesians 6:12

    Here is where God works out our salvation. Hebrews 12:6-11

    For 27 yrs I attend church, Assembly of God, Baptist, Full Gospel, Church of Faith, etc; not one of them spoke specifically concerning these things

    I searched, fasted, studied the letter, all that was available thru man in this present day Christianity. Nothing could satisfy me, set me free or remove the veil from the eyes of my heart. God is our Father, in my heart thinking I should know Him like I know my natural father, this didn't become a reality until God lead me to the writing of these Quakers of the 17th Century & as time pass & I continue to grow in Grace, the possession of this reality becomes more clearer & precious in my eyes, Blessed Him for His tender mercies & longsuffering love toward me.

    God has & continues to fulfill His word to me, Isa 42:16 all by the grace & truth that came by Jesus Christ. John 1:16 John 1:9
  • David0921 - 8 months ago
    Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the GRACE OF GOD: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Hebrews 11

    Hebrews 12:1,2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, LOOKING UNTO JESUS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF FAITH; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
  • Frankie J - In Reply - 9 months ago
    2 of 3

    What I been given by the Spirit, & Scriptures is that the OT is our example.

    God was ready to bring Israel into possession of the promise land, then after their 40yrs of wandering, they enter & came into a measure of it, but they stalled again & did not drive out all of there enemies, through doubt & unbelief, Hebrews 10:19 & the pleasures & comforts 1John 2:16 as then so now!

    You say "Definitely not the 2nd case" they're cleaned & are continuously being clean. There is a state of Grace in the work of redemption that as one continues faithful to God, minding His reproofs & instructions in righteousness growing unto maturity in Christ, Hebrews 12:7-11 Hebrews 10:21-23 in judgment God remembers mercy. Our Father is a good one, He sees & discerns the intents of our hearts toward Him.

    For instances, when we're learning how to walk, there's many falls, but at some point the child learns, doesn't fall any more. The same with coming out of sin, He takes us step by step, line upon line, bringing us through stages of deliverance. If we can overcome one sin, & continue in the exercising of His Grace we can eventually overcome all sin. Like the children of Israel we becomes content, grown fat, thus their miserable history of continuing in sin & ours. Oh, we keep up the outward appearance & lip service, but the inward work of His living Presence has ceased & now it just a memory of what He had wrought in us from past experiences, Grace is Divine Power to continue. 1Thess 5:24
  • Frankie J - In Reply - 9 months ago
    Hi Giannis

    1John 2:1 but then he moves on: 1John 3:9

    You say, because we have this sin nature, Not if we're born again, 2Cor 5:17, His Spirit of Grace has brought us through the regeneration & renewing of the Holy Spirit unto the new creature, created in Ephesians 4:24 Col 3:10. By His Spirit of Grace, the Cross, the old nature has been deny, mortify & finally crucify Rom 6:6,7 & We have become partakers 2Pet 1:3,4

    Its very true, as you stated we, in & of ourselves we cannot stop sinning, its a hopeless situation. But with God all things are possible! Jeremiah 32:27

    Jesus stated, John 7:17,18 Meaning; if one is practicing in their lives the doctrines of faith they believe & its not having the results the Word of God clearly states, then their doctrine & faith is not of God & their speaking of themselves.Their faith is not Hebrews 12:2 Matt 7:14

    Friend anyone who would not be prejudice, can perceive that throughtout the Scriptures God is calling His people to be holy.

    He kick Lucifier out of heaven when he sinned, He put Adam & Eve out of paradise when they sinned, He kick the nation of Israel out of the promise land when they continue sinning. Do you really believe He's going to allow anyone into His holy Kingdom that's a sinner? Especially now that He has sent His Son, if He was going to allow sin into heaven, Jesus could have avoided that horrible humiliation & vicious suffering at the hands of ungodly men.

    No, my friend, sinners will not enter the kingdom of God, it not happenning,

    Last par; HEAVY LOAD ON THEIR SHOULDERS, it an evident token that they have not come to the True Jesus Matt 11:28 because He's the John 1:29

    I kindly request that you read No Cross No Crown William Penn, Chap 1-8 & serious consider what discover in these pages.

    freely on the net, No Cross No Crown project gutenberg

    in love & truth
  • Chris - In Reply - 9 months ago
    Thanks Frankie J for your comments. The question then is, 'how do we fulfil all the requirements of the Law?" We know that Jesus truly did so; the only One Who did it perfectly & completely. But how do we do it?

    Other questions: what is the meaning & implications of: the "New Covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away"? ( Hebrews 8:13). And "to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel"? ( Hebrews 12:24).

    When we compare the great worth of the Covenant that Christ brought us through His shed Blood, how do ever resort to any of the elements of the Old Covenant (whether the Ten Commandments or sacrificial requirements & observances)? The Old Covenant held men (Israel) in bondage leading to death - the New Covenant gave men liberty & eternal life, & to fully know & obey God by the working of the Holy Spirit in them. The contrast is exceedingly clear - maybe our minds are still caged into upholding a Law never designed to give us life.

    Galatians 3:19: "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." There was a time limit for the Old Law to Israel: "UNTIL THE SEED should come to whom the promise was made". And "if there had been a Law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law" ( Galatians 3:21).

    I see that only Jesus could fulfil the Law & by His Death, bring in the New Covenant which abrogated that Old Law. The New Covenant administered by the Holy Spirit cannot be fused together with the Old Covenant that kept men bound to a yoke of strenuous law-keeping that gave no power to overcome & experience the joy of life in the power of the Holy Spirit. To the Jew, I think this release is truly life-changing - maybe not so to Gentiles, not given that Law.


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