Discuss Genesis 32

  • Richard H Priday - 5 months ago
    Trinity vs Oneness camp: Part 1

    I have been wiped out on my computer TWICE trying to get this posting out. Seems the enemy doesn't want me to do this.

    Or I had too many windows up at the same time. UGH.

    Whenever I go to get scripture references I take a chance on wiping out the page; although my computer for some reason stalled out last run..

    I will post this as an argument and rebuttal format just to do something different....

    First assumption (as best I understand it). Christ didn't appear any other time in a bodily form except while here on earth.

    It should be clear that Christ rose with scars remaining from His body which He had on earth that was resurrected. This is clear from "doubting Thomas" in John 20:28. There are numerous instances when Christ was indeed in a preincarnate form; such as with the incident with Abraham in Genesis 18:18 (where it also appears the discussion in the previous verses is between the Godhead as to whether these things should remain hidden). There is also the incident with the angel of the Lord in Hosea 11:4 cross referencing Jacob wrestling with God in the account of Genesis 32:22-32. For worship to occur these saints of God were indeed only to worship God. Since 1 John states that no one can see God and live; and Genesis 32:30 says that no one has seen God at any time; it seems clear that Christ was appearing in these cases. Numerous other verses could be cited.

    The "us" verses.

    We see in the original creation story in Genesis 1; as well as the narrative of the Tower of Babel ( Genesis 11:7) where "our image" and "us" is referred to in the creation of man; and the determination to confuse the language of men.

    Argument Two: Main premise that God is one appearing in different "modes" or forms. To ignore that God is in distinct persons seems absurd in light of verses such as Luke 23:46 (where Jesus commended His spirit to God at death); and all other verses which showed Christ praying to the Father.
  • Jema - In Reply on Genesis 32 - 9 months ago
    Hello ! I spend a lot of time looking at the older comments so I recognise your name from a few years ago it's nice to hear from you again :).
  • SkipVought on Genesis 32 - 9 months ago
    This seems like Jacob saw the face of GOD and the father GOD and his life was preserved and he will be held by his savior and exauled as his child for forever! Amen y'all!
  • Richard H Priday - 10 months ago
    Jacob the deceiver. Continued discussion of how God worked through a supplanter.

    Genesis 28 through 30 go through the story of Jacob after his mother thrust him out to find a wife from among her people; in this case from Laban. Jacob immediately fell for Rachel and after seven years of labor for Laban he was given a wife but he found out in the morning that it was Leah; the older sister. This was not his fault; but nonetheless, God recognized the marriage. In fact; Jacob's attitude toward her in the seven year further wait for Leah (because of Laban's deception) caused Leah to bear many children as she was despised and turned to God for direction. She gave glory to God; and some versions seem to indicate her prayers were answered; after six kids God finally opened Rachel's womb; but not before she had him sleep with the handmaiden for several children who would later be part of the 12 tribes. We should learn here that when we despise someone for somebody else God can bless the person as he is just (as with Leah). God's purposes were done with Jacob's actions; or despite them. Eventually Jacob had a sort of forgiveness and understanding with Esau; his actions may have prevented him from carrying out his plans to kill him out of jealousy. Jacob also found ways to get revenge on Laban for cheating him many years; again the Lord's will was done but not through any righteousness on Jacob's part necessarily. His struggle with God in Genesis 32:22-32 shows a tenacity perhaps unmatched in all history; that a mere man could wrestle with God all night (probably Christ preincarnate) and only through the hip wound the wrestling match was ended. That tenacity for a blessing is something we all can look at as something to emulate in our prayers!

    Genesis 31:34 shows how Rachel hid her household gods; something God could have destroyed her and Jacob for. The Lord at that time overlooked it but who knows how much more blessing she could have had without them?
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hi Jriley.

    It is clear that there was always a chosen line of ancestry. This is evident from the fact that the Book of Genesis only gives the genealogy of Seth (although Cain's genealogy is mentioned briefly), ignoring all the other descendants of Adam and Eve.

    The line of Seth takes us all the way to the birth of Jesus. "There are some Gentiles in the line of Jesus by way of Rahab and Ruth.

    There was always a chosen line, but that does not mean there has ALWAYS been a separation of Jews and Gentiles.

    It seems, then, that the separation of Jews and Gentiles did not BEGIN to occur until God called Abraham to be the father of His chosen nation, Israel ( Genesis 12). Many view Abraham as the first Jew, even though the precise term Jew did not come into use until after the return from exile when the tribe of Judah was dominant.

    Another placement of the division of Jews from Gentiles would be with Jacob, whose name was changed by God to Israel

    Genesis 32:28.

    (All of the descendants of Jacob, through his 12 sons)

    I believe the separation of lineage started with Seth and the ACTUAL separation of Jews and the rest of the world/Gentiles Started in Genesis 17:10-19 and highlighted in vs 17-18.

    "And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

    And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

    Abraham was given a seal if a covenant of circumcision, "A cutting away of sinful flesh" in

    Genesis 17:10-14.

    This pointed to Christ work on the cross. Colossians 2:10-17.

    This has nothing to do with race!

    It has everything to do with covenant!

    And a Jew inwardly has nothing to do with Israel as a Nation and God's covenant and future promises to the Nation Israel and the Davidic kingdom in the Millennium.

    GB.
  • MountHoreb - In Reply on Acts 3 - 1 year ago
    If we go back to Eve. she gave birth ( Genesis 1:27,28;4:1,2;5:25). some of these offspring's died by means of old age,

    Genesis 3:19; Genesis 6:3, violance or destroyed by the flood ( Genesis 6:5-7,11-13;17). Only Noah his wife, Shem, Ham, and Japheth their 3 wives survived. that means only eight people survived out of Adams and eve's children and grand children.

    The point! not all of Noah's children listened to God. They followed Satan the devil and his lies Genesis 3. when you read about the Canaanites ( Genesis 13:7; Leviticus 18:1-5) this bad nation came through Ham descendance ( Genesis 10:6). or Ammorites, some Noah's descendance created a nation by their family name Genesis 11. When Jehovah ( psalm 83:18) confused their language they all spread out and became nations of people like you see today.

    to the point: Abraham was a righteous man who lived in Canaan. but one of God's angels told him to leave Canaan then became a father to a nation of Israel ( Genesis 17:1-8). God name Jacob Israel ( Genesis 32:28). this is how a Nation of Isreal came about. Canaan land later became Jerusalem belonging to Israel the Jews.

    However, Israel repeatedly sinned by worshiping other gods. even Solomon the last king worshiped false Gods ( Nehemiah 13:23-27) Jesus turned to the Gentiles which means nation who will believe ( John 3:16,17).

    However, their are some Israelites who did believe, but most rejected Jesus.- Acts 1:6-8; Matthew 24:14; 2 Timothy 3:13-17



    It's a lot of info. but I hope the bible answered your question HOW A NATION BECAME A INDEPENDANT NATION
  • Richard H Priday - 1 year ago
    Spiritual eyes part 4.

    Getting back to the Great Commission; the examples in Acts are things which we will not experience unless we are out there sharing our faith. It is hard to imagine today a Phillipians 1:15 situation where there is envy for those who are "turning the world upside down" ( Acts 17:6). At least in the USA it seems the impact is minimal; and probably largely due to a fear of persecution.

    Prayers such as freed Peter in Acts 12; as well as Paul's release in Acts 16:25-28 are sorely needed today; of course that involves remembering missionaries and those in bonds today ( Hebrews 13:3 which certainly sounds like something Paul would have authored).

    Prayer can err on both being presumptuous as to God answering things a certain way or not being boldly presenting our petitions to His throne ( Heb. 4:16). Yes; there are times when we contend with God; such as when I would guess happened when James was killed with the sword in Acts. We shouldn't use Esau's example of praying with tears as an excuse not to have heartfelt prayer; he was only concerned with the results of his sin. Sadly; I have seen very few times when tears flow because of grief and loss; I'm sure a lot of us myself included would be greatly edified by more tears of repentance realizing how great the Father's love is for us. Therefore; praise and adulation of the Lord and His Holiness; as well as our own sad state in comparison should be something starting church services and other gatherings as a routine practice. As my friend in Pittsburgh stated a couple years back when he started early morning prayers; he was "desperate for prayer". Something needed by more believers today.

    Along with knowing when to act is also knowing when to wait on the Lord. Patience is a virtue I surely need more of but it is something commonplace in those possessing mature faith and good fruit in their walk. Wrestling with God all night in prayer is also commendable like in Genesis 32:22-32
  • AFC on Genesis 32 - 1 year ago
    What are the hollows of the thigh and the sinew that shrank?
  • Chris - In Reply on Revelation 19 - 1 year ago
    I read Richard Priday's post quite simply as 'angels are not to be worshipped'; this he stated at the first. And he goes on to state that God, in the past, has used angels to carry out His requirements. We see this at Mt. Sinai, at Sodom, at Jacob's encounter with the Angel, in the Revelation given to John, & other places. Richard of course, mentioned these theophanies (an appearance of God, or a perceived appearance of God, to man); Genesis 32:24-30 being a good example of this, when Jacob exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face". Of course, it was God's Angel that Jacob saw & wrestled with, but his encounter with this Being & the blessing he received (which may have been extensive & with accompanying Glory), brought him as close to God on Earth as humanly possible. That of course was in the OT days. Those "in Christ" now, have God, by His Holy Spirit, residing in our being 24/7.

    And Richard's last sentence, "Such things would not be done by saints of God with created beings", I read it as a summary of his belief that such encounters, as we read in the Bible, can only be had with God & His angelic messengers, not with sinful man. So the belief is still strong: angels are not to be worshipped, but when God sent His angelic messenges, due reverence must be given to God alone, receiving the message or act from His angel as it were from God Himself. I hope I remained true to Richard's comment & this has helped you to come to grips with it.
  • Kelly on Genesis 32 - 1 year ago
    Who and why did Jacob wrestle with a man?
  • T Levis - In Reply on Genesis 27 - 1 year ago
    They may be referring to Genesis 25:26-34, Genesis 27, Genesis 27:36,

    Jacob meaning "heel-catcher" i.e. supplanter"

    Genesis 32:28,

    Hopefully these are helpful in your study
  • T. Levis - In Reply on Genesis 32 - 1 year ago
    Hosea 12:2-6, it is wisdom to search out scripture, many times GOD clarifies His WORD & repeats. Also significant : Genesis 28:17-22, Genesis 32, Genesis 35:1,3, Genesis 35 whole chapter puts together Bethel & Bethlehem & GOD's appearing, Genesis 48:3,7, Exodus 6:3, Isaiah 2:3, Isaiah 41:8, Jeremiah 31:11, Jeremiah 51:19, Micah 4:2, Acts 7:46-48,

    Psalms 146:5,

    James 1:5,

    Hopefully these are helpful in your study
  • S Spencer - In Reply on Genesis 32 - 1 year ago
    Sharon.

    Sorry for the misprint, I meant "With the msg being so clear in Genesis 32:24-30 there's no need to seek other scriptures to interpret it."

    God bless.
  • S Spencer - In Reply on Genesis 32 - 1 year ago
    Hi Sharon.

    With the msf being so clear in Genesis 32:24-30 there's no need to seek other scriptures to interpret it.

    "And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

    And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

    And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

    And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

    And he said, THY NAME SHALL BE CALLED NO MORE JACOB, BUT ISRAEL: FOR AS A PRINCE HAST THOU POWER WITH GOD AND WITH MEN, and hast prevailed.

    And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

    And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: FOR I HAVE SEEN GOD FACE TO FACE, AND MY LIFE IS PRESERVED."

    God bless.
  • Sharon Tucker on Genesis 32 - 1 year ago
    Is there any other scripture pertaining to Jacob and the man he wrestled with. Was this man an angle? Is there any other scripture to back that up.
  • T. Levis - In Reply - 1 year ago
    It's not really fair to judge someone based on the definition of a name given before or at time of birth, before the person defines who they, themselves are by their life, actions, achievements etc. 1Chronicles 4:9-10, Genesis 10:25, Genesis 35:18, Neither is it Justice to define anyone by a name because someone has the same name. Please read these scriptures: 1Samuel 2:3, Genesis 25:25,26, Genesis 29:32, yet not exactly true, because Genesis 29:33, contadicts the previous name. Following Genesis 29:34,35,

    Sometimes people live up to names given, is it because they've been called so? Genesis 27:36,

    However sometimes a name is earned: Genesis 25:30, Genesis 30:13, Revelation 11:8, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 19:13, Revelation 17:14

    Many times people in the Bible share name, yet are completely different. Especially 1611 KJV, on this site. Examples today many people have name like Jesus pronunciation different are not even close, or Angels names, that are far from. We should be careful to not be deceived even evil can appear as light, likewise many names have been made to deceive. 2Corinthians 11:13,14

    There are divine names given by GOD however, those maybe we should take more notice of, :

    Genesis 16:11,12, Genesis 11:29, + Genesis 17:5,15,19, Genesis 32:28, Genesis 35:10, Revelation 19:11,

    Thanks for your question, for it did remind me of that. Genesis 5:2,

    Hopefully these are helpful & give you intrigue into deeper study of names with scripture & reading GOD's WORD
  • Paul - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hi Spencer

    pt 3

    Regarding speaking to the Lord face to face...

    There are more than one instance where the Bible records this happened...

    And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, ( Deuteronomy 34:10)

    And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. ( Genesis 32:30)

    Jacob boldly says, And my life is perserved...

    Why else would Jacob say, And my life is preserved?

    And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, ( Numbers 14:14)

    And the Bible commands us to seek His face...

    When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek. . ( Psalms 27:8)

    Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore. ( Psalms 105:4)

    Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually. ( 1 Chronicles 16:11)

    If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. ( 2 Chronicles 7:14)

    The Mormons have a book of Scripture that tells us how Moses and others saw God face to face and lived.

    Mormon Scripture says the only way man can see God face to face and live is to be out of the body having God's priesthood.

    That explains the contradiction.
  • Jesse - In Reply on Genesis 32 - 2 years ago
    Henry,

    Matthew 6:9-13 gives us the principles of prayer. This is known as the "Lord's Prayer" theologically, but in reality it is called the Disciples Prayer because Jesus is teaching the disciples to pray. The real Lord's Prayer is found in John Chapter 17 where Jesus prayed in intercession for His people to the Father. That is the real Lord's Prayer. It is His prayer. This is the prayer for the Disciples in Matthew Chapter 6.

    There is another version in Luke Chapter 11 Verses 2 through 4, but it is a different presentation from what we have here in Matthew. In Luke there are no Hebraisms because Luke's Gospel was written to the Gentiles.

    For instance the first one is "Our Father, which art in heaven." Luke, even in the oldest manuscripts, it is just "Our Father." There is no phrase, in heaven.

    So basically Jesus again taught the same principles, but one in Jewish form and one in Greek form. And so you can see that it was not used as a formula for reciting, where everybody gets up and we say the same prayer all the time every week. It is not a formula prayer! But there are principles that Jesus laid down to teach us. He says, you want to know how to pray? Here is what you do.
  • Rod - In Reply on Genesis 32 - 2 years ago
    It's part of the beatitudes and sermon on the mount Matthew chapters 5-7, Matthew 6:9-14
  • Margo Angell - In Reply on Genesis 32 - 2 years ago
    What we call The Lord's Prayer is in Matthew Chapter 6 verses 9 through13. It is where Jesus tells us how we should pray to our Holy Father.
  • HENRY JACKSON on Genesis 32 - 2 years ago
    Which book of the kjv is the lords prayer located
  • T. Levis - In Reply on Psalms 23 - 2 years ago
    Psalms 23,

    Rod: Exodus 4:17,

    Job 9:34, Job 21:9, Psalms 2:9, Psalms 89:32, Psalms 125:3, Proverbs 10:13, Proverbs 13:24, Proverbs 22:15, Proverbs 23:13,14, Proverbs 26:3,

    Proverbs 29:15, Isaiah 9:4, Isaiah 10:5, Isaiah 10:15, Isaiah 10:26, Isaiah 11:1,4, Jeremiah 10:16, Revelation 12:25,

    Staff: Genesis 32:10, Genesis 38:18, Exodus 12:17, Exodus 21:19, Leviticus 26:26, Numbers 13:23, Judges 6:21, 2Samuel 3:29, 2Samuel 23:7,21, 2Kings 4:29,31, 2Kings 18:21, Isaiah 3:1, Isaiah 14:5, Isaiah 28:27,

    Hopefully these are helpful
  • T. Levis - In Reply on Genesis 3 - 2 years ago
    Genesis 1:28, other translations say "to fill" or "make full" the earth, replacing "replinish" , it would be interesting to do original text reasearch on the word.

    Genesis 2:16,17,

    If you look at Genesis 5:1-2, it can change the perspective, to who exactly the name Adam, is referring to. It's similar to referencing "man or mankind, man made" the difference seems to be clarified more when it says "the woman " Genesis 3, if we look however as Genesis 2, being in chronological order, then the woman arrives Genesis 2:18,19,21,22, after. However Genesis 3:1-3, shows she was very aware of the 'law' 2Corinthians 11:3, 1Timothy 2:13-15,

    Genesis 2:23, He 1st named her ' woman ' interestingly Jacob also seems to do the same when GOD changed his name to Israel he continues to be referred to as Jacob, also. Genesis 32:28, Genesis 35:10, Genesis 46:2,5,

    It doesn't say their children would be a punishment, Genesis 3:16, pregnancy & childbirth is difficult, painful, with distress. Woman also have hormons that magnify crying 'sorrow'. Explaining the curse also. Why, seems to be explained in Gen. 3. Revelation 12:2, John 16:21,

    Genesis 3:7, fig leaves, will decompose & provide no warmth, It's a temporary, hasty, bad choice. Genesis 3:21, compassion, provision, love, mercy, knowledge, wisdom & protection, is why GOD made coats of skin for them. Remember they were no longer allowed in the protected environment of the special garden. Genesis 3:23-24, Ephesians 2:4,

    "how, did GOD make skins from animals for them & why" It appears to be the 1st animal sacrifice to cover "mans sins".

    Romans 5:14, John 3:15,16, 1Corinthians 15:22, 1Corinthians 15:45, 1Chronicles 1:1, Luke 3,

    Proverbs 7, Romans 8, Hebrews 10, Matthew 13,

    Hopefully these are all helpful
  • T. Levis - In Reply - 2 years ago
    This is a fascinating thing. I heard a sermon one time saying the words spoken about "if someone sees the face of GOD they cannot live" he said "they cannot live, the same" Is this the question you're looking deeper into? Genesis 32:20,30, Exodus 33:11, Exodus 34:28-30,35,

    It would be very interesting to do a study on the words. Exodus 3:6, Exodus 33:20,23, Numbers 6:25, Deuteronomy 5:1-5, Deuteronomy 31:17,18, Deuteronomy 32:20, Deuteronomy 34:10, Judges 6:22, 1Kings 13:6, 1Chronicles 16:11, 2Chronicles 7:14, 2Chronicles 30:9, Psalms 13:1, Psalms 17:5, Psalms 22:24, Psalms 105:4, Isaiah 54:8, Isaiah 59:2, Jeremiah 21:10, Ezekiel 20:35,

    Perhaps it's the word "man" that the emphasise is. Romans 8:14, Galatians 4:6, Hebrews 12:7, John 1:12, Philippians 2:15, 1John 3:1,2 , 1John 4:15, How sad it is when a living father says "see his face no more" or turns his face.

    Genesis 3:8-10, interestingly, in this translation it says they heard "the voice of the LORD" they "hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God"

    What's amazing is: Genesis 4:16, it appears even though they were cast out of the garden GOD's presence was still with them.

    Psalms 139, Job 4:15,

    Hopefully this is helpful
  • Adam - In Reply - 2 years ago
    In my opinion its because Jesus was temporarily put into the limited form of a man, so in that state it wasn't exactly the same as looking at God in the spirit form with all God's glory and power. This happened before, actually, when Jacob wrestled with a figure God took a physical form and wrestled with Jacob: Genesis 32:30. I think if people looked directly at God in spiritual form they would normally die, because its too intense to handle. Exodus 33:20. Moses saw the back of God as He passed, but again, wasn't the same as a full on experience. Ex. 33:19-23
  • T Levis - In Reply on Exodus 1 - 2 years ago
    Genesis 25:23-28, Genesis 32:1,24,25,26,27,28, Genesis 35:10, Genesis 46:2, Genesis 46:5, * Genesis 50:24, Exodus 1:1-5, * 1Kings 18:31, * Psalms 14:7, Psalms 105:10, interesting how this scripture is broken down like this 'And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law,' 'and to Israel an everlasting covenant ' 2 Samuel 7:7,

    They are descendents, of Jacob aka "Israel' the lineage of CHRIST Jesus, Matthew 1,

    Hopefully these are helpful
  • Jcbu undercover on Genesis 32 - 2 years ago
    This so reminded me of angel light you decide update on youtube.That light in the pictures,is protecting the animals,and us from the storms to come.The light is the light of the world Jesus Christ he is soon coming back ,and already hear in the believers.He is everywhere in the air we breathe in the wind upon our face.Twinkling stars, God's amazing grace.People they look everywhere.He is in the smallest grain of sand,one strand from our hair.
  • GiGi again - In Reply on Genesis 32 - 2 years ago
    David,

    I was intending that I don't think that Jacob was used to going to God in prayer before he left for Haran. that is why he made a conditional vow to God..."If God will...then I will..."

    At this time, before he was to meet Esau, he had grown some in his relationship with God, but this night was pivotal in him coming to the realization and belief that he could really trust God and also go to him first and not just wait for Him to show up, as He had in past events. It was after this night that Jacob began referring to God as the God of Israel. Before he referred to God as the God of Abraham or the God (Fear) of Isaac, but his own personal God.
  • David - In Reply on Genesis 32 - 2 years ago
    Gigi I don't see how Going to God in prayer would be challenging or a test of faith, prayer in its common denominator is asking God to do something i.e. help, just like a human child going to there father. It says in hebrews for us to boldly come to the throne of grace to find help in time of need.
  • GiGi again on Genesis 32 - 2 years ago
    ....He is in need of God's help. In this instance, instead of God initiating the interaction by appearing to him and speaking to him first, Jacob calls on God in prayer for help in facing a perceived adversary. He has realized the he does not need to wait on God to show up, but he can go straight to God and get a response. This is a challenge of his faith, "will God answer my prayer?"

    I noticed that Jacob was willing to stay all night in camp seeking God's help even though his family has gone ahead. So by morning, his family is 8+ hours ahead of him. And, as a result of the wrestling match, he has a limp from where God touched his thigh. He will be walking more slowly for the rest of his life. He will be constantly reminded of the night of wrestling with God. He will always know that God is stronger than him. He will also know that God is with him adn only a prayer away.


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