It is Jesus the Christ that is our Kinsman-Redeemer.
The kinsman Redeemer had two main functions, that of redemption of man, and the justice of avenging evil and sin against His people, Israel.
It is Him that came the 1st time to redeem the world with His blood, and it is Him that will come the 2nd time as the Avenger of blood to save Israel and destroy His enemies wherein the justice of avenging evil and sin is performed.
This is why it is so important that we understand that Jesus was the ultimate example of faith.
He did right what Adam did wrong.
He trusted God even though He would die.
He allowed Himself to become a man, after having spent eternity as God.
On the promise that God would resurrect Him, and restore Him to His state, that Christ would sit in God the Father's throne, until all was fulfilled; and Christ would come the 2nd time to redeem Israel, destroy his enemies and then will sit on the throne of David("And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David" Luke 1:30-32), a throne that He was ultimately meant to rule from (for thousand years until always completed and there is the new heaven and new earth Revelations 20:2-6), for a thousand years.
4. God in His wisdom had set up a system where if individuals had no income or food, they could survive in Israel by going through fields after they had been harvested the wheat, and salvage the reminiscence that were dropped. This was referred to as "gleaning a field" ( Lev. 23:22).
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
King Solomon saw the folly of not speedialy punishing the wicked. In this day and age, criminals are let go with a slap on the wrist. This only enables them to commit more crimes.
Jesus laid down His life so that people could be forgiven for their sins. He didn't lay down His life so that the wicked could commit crimes with impunity. They should be stopped by whatever means necessary, even if it means cutting off their hand(s) to prevent them from using a weapon or grabbing someone.
If you ask me, all rapists especially child molesters should be fully castrated. Or, at the very least have their hands cut off so they can't rape anyone else.
The Bible never says anything close to raping a woman is fine. It is definitely wrong. In 2 Samuel 13, Amnon was murdered by his half-brother for raping their sister. The sons of Jacob murdered the whole city for raping their sister Dinah in Genesis 34. Judges 19 also doesn't condone rape. Deuteronomy 22: 25 says that if a woman is raped the the man that raped her should be stoned. Now to the other topic of questioning, if a man is arguing with another man and he gets hit, it is no right for the woman to step in. Especially should she not grab a man by his man parts. The Mosaic law was very clear that sexual sin in any way would not be condoned. She committed a sexual sin by grabbing his man parts and in turn she would lose that hand for committing that sin. Jesus died on the cross for us and Paul clearly says that we are no under the law, but under grace. Jesus fulfilled the law. There is no excuse to sin because of that, but we don't cut off people's hands anymore.
My thoughts are that we do need to be wise about those who call themselves believers and yet live outwardly sinful lives along the lines mentioned in the Corinthians verses you quoted. Their behavior tarnishes the witness of Christ through the church. If stubbornly unrepentant they put themselves in the category of the devil and his angels who believe in Christ and yet tremble because they do not wish to live for God. They are courting the possibility of apostasy.
Also, about the condition of the world around us, my thoughts are that this is not the most evil time in history. It may seem that way because the western world is becoming more and more disobedient to God and the Gospel of Christ, more and more scoffers and mockers who openly challenge the righteous living of believers with their flaunting of sinful living. The world has been cruel, idolatrous, revilers of God and His truth since before the flood and shortly after (think Babel) and all throughout history (think of the persecution of Christian under Roman rule, the slaughter of the Islamic takeovers of countries in the 700's, and the enslavement of so many groups of people throughout time.
We just notice these things more because it is happening before our very eyes. There are many areas of the world where the Gospel is advancing in leaps and bounds with new believers bring added daily in great numbers, but in the western world,
true faithful Christian people are declining and the believers in these cultures are getting more and more worldly.
We should still desire to share the gospel with others because it is what we are called to do from Scripture. If few accept the Gospel, that is no reason to be discouraged, both elect and non-elect need to hear the Gospel. God is the one who brings anyone to faith in Him, so we share the Gospel and leave the conversion to God. Those who refuse the Gospel may come to Christ at a later time or never at all. God knows who are to become His.
I know I shouldn't be upset. All the wickedness going on in the world is making me crazy. We know that Jesus is right at the door, and as Matthew 24:13 says, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Christians take a lot of flack for simply trying to give The Lost the information they need to be saved. They don't want to hear it. It's very frustrating.
What does 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 mean? We should shun phony Christians and not fret over the unsaved????
1Corinthians 5:
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
The Old Testment was given to Hebrews about 1500 BC. Let's not forget that that Law represented societies of that time. God gave them a law that was familiar to them, all other nations at that time, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Mesopotamians had similar Laws. So all those practises and customs were already known to them by their living in those other places. They were accustomed to them. Those people at that time didn't have the same mind as we have today. Today we could never consider those practises as normal, we would never eg marry our brother's wife if he died without leaving children or we wouldn't pick our servant to have children with her if our wife could not make children like Abraham did and many other things in the O.T. So don't consider those rules under modern standards. How about the idea that one could have slaves? It cannot even pass through our mind nowadays but at that time it was normal. GBU
Good to hear from you Dgjot. It has been some time since you have posted. I was wondering about you and praying that you have been thriving with the Lord.
11When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets :
12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.
"the secrets" = private parts. "cut off her hand"
Isn't this overkill?
But raping women is just fine???
The more I read the Bible the more I just want to avoid people and stay in the house.
I have come to believe the Bible does NOT teach that God's Judgment for our sin and rebellion against God includes conscious existence in a place called Hell where we will endure pain and suffering that continues for billions and billions of years without any end, i.e for ever and ever.
The Bible does teach I believe that the wages of sin is eternal death. That is eternal destruction, annihilation. This means of course that if we die unsaved there is no eternal inheritance for us living and reigning with Christ forever in the New Heavens and New Earth in eternal bliss that never ends. All that is lost which in itself is a terrible punishment.
The conventional understanding of God's Final Judgment for sin, of suffering and torment that has no end is inconsistent with everything in the Bible that speaks about the Mercy of God. To believe that would mean that an unsaved baby who dies at childbirth would suffer consciously without any end whatsoever. The idea of an "age of accountability" is nowhere found in the Bible and unless saved in the womb we are sinners from birth as the Bible clearly teaches.
Furthermore God is perfectly righteous which means that God has obligated Himself to follow the Laws that He sets forth, including the Law of Deuteronomy 25:1-3 that punishment for the wicked is Limited. It has an end.
So when when a person dies unsaved they will never again have conscious existence.
Now if we are unsaved and still living when Christ returns to Resurrect and Rapture All whom He has saved throughout time, and enter into the Day of Judgment there will be intense suffering and shaming. But that will come to an end when Christ destroys this sin-cursed earth and Satan and all the fallen angels by fire, and there will be no remembrance of anything related to this creation in eternity. God then creates New Heavens and a New Earth where all of those saved will live and reign with Christ throughout eternity, world without end.
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Deuteronomy 25:1-3
If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked. And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number. Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
How do these passages fit with the conventional understanding that God's Judgment for the wicked is conscious existence and eternal suffering that never ends in a place called Hell?
Would we not expect God's punishment for the wicked to be consistent with His Law and have a limit?
The biggest difference that you cite is, of course, the nature of God's judgment on the unsaved.
Your understanding reflects the understanding and teaching of essentially every church and denomination throughout the church age. And when I was in the church, I did not question that understanding either. I have quite recently come to believe otherwise, and will provide what I believe to be some scriptural proof in future postings.
I believe that Hellmin the Bible refers to the grave. And I believe God's punishment for sin is death. That is both physical death. And the death of our soul. It is not a death of eternal suffering as the church has taught. It is annihilation. And I understand that is heretical to what we have been taught in the churches and what most believe. I am only going to present a passage here that you and others may want to ponder. It is a Law that God lays down in Deuteronomy 25.
Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
Deuteronomy 25:2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
Deuteronomy 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
God is declaring here that there is a limit to punishment that mankind is to observe. And God not only requires mankind to obey this law. But God himself is bound by this law, as he has not repealed it anywhere in the Bible, that I am aware of.
More on this later, as I have run out of room here.
Let me just say that this is an example of the incredible mercy of God.
Being born of a Jewish mother ? In old time and maybe even still , a child was counted as Jewish only if it's mother is Jewish , if you need convincing read the book of Ezra .
The people Jesus was speaking to, understood that for of discipline/punishment because it was very publicity done in their society, see Deuteronomy 25:1-3, 2Corinthians 11:23,24, Acts 16:23, Proverbs 19:29,
Isaiah 53, Isaiah 53:5,
Context Luke 12, it starts off Luke 12:1 "In the meantime._.._." therefore you have to go back a page or more to get fuller context. Luke 11, starts Luke 11:1 "And it came to pass._._" also a continuation but atleast you can see a good contextual beginning in Luke 11:1 they were asking Jesus to teach them to pray. Jesus started to teach them Luke 11:2-52, also bringing the Church Leadership into correction, while teaching all around, including those leaders. Luke 11:53-54, those leaders were waiting for a time to trip him up. Luke 12, begins as that moments continuation, so Jesus in the crowds chaos continued teaching Luke 12:1 "._._.. Beware ye of the ._._.hypocrisy ", (please read in context) Jesus then encourages us & all around Him, the Love GOD has for us & HIS promises of provision of all needs, even during wrongful persecution & death. Luke 12:3-40, with continued warning of hypocrisy, Luke 12:41-59, notice Luke 12:45, mistreatment of others, disregard of responsibility as Stewardship, leadership, ect.
Looks like Jesus is talking about being responsible for those people & things put into the care, trust of HIS "servants" knowingly or unknowingly sinning against, if you're a leader, trusted with anyone & especially the Church.
Thanks for listing the verses of your perceived contradictions. You're making a giant claim by claiming "The Bible contradicts itself quite often." Have you actually done a deep study into each of your claims to determine if other explanations exist that you haven't yet considered or is this just a snap judgment? Just because you assume they're contradictions doesn't mean they are and doesn't seem to justify trying to discredit the Bible on a Bible site. If you would like we can address each of these one at a time. In reality you could also just take a few seconds to Google search it and find logical explanations for each of these points from sites like got questions, carm, etc but still, I'm happy to have a dialog.
For now I'll just point out that your first difficulty with geneologies, the geneology of Matthew may be through Joseph and geneology of Luke may be through Mary. Can you see how that would result in a different geneology? Another view is that Matthew is a biological geneology and Luke recorded a legal geneology through levirate marriage. Deuteronomy 25:5. Another possibility is that Joseph had two fathers. Can you see how now in just a short paragraph that either of these could easily explain what you assumed was a contradiction. Because the Bible was meticulously recorded, inspired by God, and is the truth, isn't it more likely that in each of these there is a logical explanation you haven't yet thought of, rather your assumptions being true?
Judah's firstborn son Er has died, killed by God for an unnamed wickedness. Since Er died without leaving children, Judah has told his second oldest son, Onan, to take Er's widow Tamar as his wife. His responsibility is to have children with her, raising those offspring on behalf of his brother. This was a strong custom in the region at the time, and it would be part of God's law for the nation of Israel ( Deuteronomy 25:5-6).This would ensure that the departed man's line could continue. It would also provide for the woman's care, giving her children to support her as she aged.
Onan doesn't like the idea. According to this custom, the children will legally be considered heirs of his dead brother. The time and resources Onan must provide caring for them won't be part of his legacy. Some portion of his future earnings and estate will go to children who are legally and culturally considered someone else's sons.
In response, Onan deliberately avoids conceiving children with Tamar. If that meant avoiding intercourse with her, his choice would merely have been callous. The later, formal version of "levirate marriage" would include a way for the surviving brother to avoid taking on the new wife ( Deuteronomy 25:7-10). Instead, Onan takes advantage of both the situation and of Tamar. He uses her for sex but interrupts the act at the very end to prevent conception. This is not a single event, but a pattern: it was Onan's choice "whenever" he had sex with Tamar. For that, God will strike Onan dead ( Genesis 38:10).
This sin and its dire consequences inspired the term "Onanism." This word is most often applied to what modern people label as "masturbation." A common assumption is that God punished Onan for self-gratification, or for having sex simply for pleasure. Strictly speaking, however, Onan's sin was how he used Tamar for sex while deliberately avoiding taking the responsibilities
Amalek is a type of the flesh and Christians are instructed by God to fight Amalek to the death every day of their lives as necessary. Leave no remnant of Amalek standing, so to speak.
I believe there is a very important NT lesson and application of Deuteronomy 25:4, that is brought out in two passages in the NT.
Deuteronomy 25:4
Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
1 Corinthians 9
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1 Timothy 5
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
The first three verses here indicate punishment deemed worthy for wickedness is judged by the "judges" who were tied in with the Priesthood; and rendered up to but not exceeding 40 lashes. Paul was; for what they claimed was insurrection or like "offenses" subject to such beatings as well. ( 2 Cor. 11:24); some FIVE times (minus one I suppose to ease their conscience). As to muzzling an ox in verse 4; I am not sure if there is a deeper spiritual context here; other than showing kindness to God's creation; other definitions show that it should be allowed to eat while working; in a sense "worthy of it's hire".
Verses 5 through 10 indicate a rule for the house of Israel; something that didn't deem direct sanction or punishment from God; but did allow for the "in your face" reaction by an offended widow expecting the "duty" of a brother living in the same house to continue her offspring within the family name by marriage. Such a brazen act of spitting in the face; and the symbolic one of loosening the shoe showed the opposite of the endearment of the Kinsman-Redeemer in the story of Ruth with Boaz. This was part of God's plan for the nation of Israel at the time-we may not relate today as modern day Americans but this is God's Word.
On the other hand; verses 11 through 12 seem overly harsh to a wife protecting her husband; nonetheless it demonstrates certain parts of the body are to be held sacred even in this case.
Verse 14 through 15 is yet another of many admonitions to have just and fair balances to enact transactions. This seems to transition into verse 16 about Amalek concluding the chapter. This shows how a past transgression affects God's further administration of justice; even after many generations. Here; the offspring of Amalek were told to be wiped out. It shall be assumed that there were either giant hybrids involved; or God knew that there would be no repentance among his descendants. We may not understand; but all of God's ways are right.
Precious Love Of Jesus, you are Very Welcome. Please Be Very 'Enriched' Growing In HIS Wonderful And Amazing GRACE!
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified! ( 2 Timothy 2:15Romans 16:25Ephesians 3:9 = Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans - Philemon}, For ALL "to SEE, today?)
GRACE_ambassador {ChrisE} study ALL Scripture - In Reply on Deuteronomy 25 - 2 years ago
Precious friends, no one is "content/ignoring tons of scripture" that commands we be 'water baptized' Today, Under God's GRACE. We have "studied" Much, Prayerfully And Carefully, And Have Found ONLY "ONE Baptism" for Today, and it is NOT "water"! Link
We Must Be Very Careful not "to blaspheme The Holy Spirit" = (as the Jews did) "attributing The 'Work Of The Holy Spirit' unto men/Satan, Instead Of To God." Matthew 12:31; Mark 3:28-30 Correct?
Some 'May Be confused' so, Other "Confirming" studies are here
Spencer, Thank you for your reply. I do not know anyone's history on here, so thanks for sharing. I kind of got here by "accident". I have not, however, come on tis comment section thinking I am going to set anyone aright. We are all just sharing our ideas here. Some of us can do so rigorously, others with a soft touch, others more timidly. There is room for everyone. In fact, I thought when I came on here I would hear far more "orthodoxy" than error. So, coming upon things that seemed false teachings to me took me by surprise. I had to pray about whether even to stay on this site, let alone try to articulate what I know to be "orthodox" teachings of the church. Not everything that I disagree with is false teaching or error. There are plenty of topics that allow for differences of viewpoints. This is called "heterodoxy".
So, I appreciate your story. We are not alike in the way you explained as far as my motivations. But we each have things to learn and ways to grow. A site like this is helpful towards these things. I am well aware that I may say things that upset people, just as people say things that unsettle my spirit, as well. I don't intend to be controversial. But I am not afraid to speak a view that may not be commonly held by others on this site. So, like you said, people may get angry with me. I just let them own that unless they can point out where something I have said is unkind or otherwise sinful. Then I will repent and apologize. That is why I ask for clarification, so I can go before the Lord and see if I have wronged anyone with what I have said. If so, I am to own that.
For, me, like others, God has brought us here together to wrestle with viewpoints so that His truth will prevail. And so, I think each of our viewpoints is important to contribute. That is why I post, because I think my viewpoint may be helpful to someone.
Many of us certainly are not passive. But we are wanting to hold out the word of truth to those who need it. God Bless.
You should have heard me when I first came on the site 2020 Christmas eve.
I assumed I would be needed as help to fend off false doctrine, I was ambitious and ready to go. I'm sure some remember.
And to top it off once I heard Brother Chris and a few others I was like GREAT TEACHINGS!! And then out of excitement I made the unforgettable comment!! I said- Quoting " I thought this site needed me to help protect it from false doctrine but they have great teachers here!! I don't think that went well. Lol. Then I get into a debate about the marks of a Christian nation and the fruitfulness of our nation, I believe that rub some people wrong and some held that against me till this day.
I've decided to be more of a supporter to those who teach what I believe to be the truth. I struggled and still do as do you, But atleast we're not passive.
I've returned to answer a few questions you asked me.
You asked: how I was disrespectful?
Well, the original post was 2 days ago, and you never responded to the lady's posting, "April" that's why I said these posts are not directed at you. If so, the original reply would have been sent to you. I was expanding on at topic that come up often that I didn't have time to engage in but said I would when time permits.
You posted addressed to me before I ever responded to the post, I gave an "Amen to Brother Jesse post and to Grace post, with the focus on water baptism isn't required for salvation. That was the narrative!
You quoted "I am not saying that water baptism saves. I am saying it is the act of obedience" whether water baptism is out of obedience or for salvation is 2 different narratives and this post was dealing with the salvation issue. Your focus seemed to be on me as I second and supported others in the tread.
And no, you don't have less privilege in posting your viewpoint on the subject because you are new to the site, but your viewpoint should have been addressed to April that way we would have stuck to the narrative, "Does water baptism saves" you said you doesn't believe it does, but you colleagues believe otherwise.
You stated.
Now quoting:
I am not trying to be contrary here. I can tell you may be a bit bothered. We disagree on this subject. I'm good with that. We both can post our viewpoints and respond to posts as we see fit. Well, you have been given that respect, give it to others. Adress your viewpoint to the post not to the responders or to someone saying "Amen" especially if we agree on the narrative. "Is water baptism for salvation". Dispensation and transitional period were just embodied in the discussion and wasn't to take precedence over the narrative.
Part 10.
It is Jesus the Christ that is our Kinsman-Redeemer.
The kinsman Redeemer had two main functions, that of redemption of man, and the justice of avenging evil and sin against His people, Israel.
It is Him that came the 1st time to redeem the world with His blood, and it is Him that will come the 2nd time as the Avenger of blood to save Israel and destroy His enemies wherein the justice of avenging evil and sin is performed.
This is why it is so important that we understand that Jesus was the ultimate example of faith.
He did right what Adam did wrong.
He trusted God even though He would die.
He allowed Himself to become a man, after having spent eternity as God.
On the promise that God would resurrect Him, and restore Him to His state, that Christ would sit in God the Father's throne, until all was fulfilled; and Christ would come the 2nd time to redeem Israel, destroy his enemies and then will sit on the throne of David("And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David" Luke 1:30-32), a throne that He was ultimately meant to rule from (for thousand years until always completed and there is the new heaven and new earth Revelations 20:2-6), for a thousand years.
Endnotes
1. Deuteronomy 25:5-10; Ruth 3:9-12; Genesis 38:8.
2. Numbers 35:12; Deuteronomy 19:6, 12; Joshua 20:3, 5, 9.
3. HOLMAN BIBLE DICTIONARY, Trent C. Butler, Ph.D., Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville, TN, 1991, page 848.
4. God in His wisdom had set up a system where if individuals had no income or food, they could survive in Israel by going through fields after they had been harvested the wheat, and salvage the reminiscence that were dropped. This was referred to as "gleaning a field" ( Lev. 23:22).
5. Ruth 4:5-10.
See Part 11.
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
King Solomon saw the folly of not speedialy punishing the wicked. In this day and age, criminals are let go with a slap on the wrist. This only enables them to commit more crimes.
Jesus laid down His life so that people could be forgiven for their sins. He didn't lay down His life so that the wicked could commit crimes with impunity. They should be stopped by whatever means necessary, even if it means cutting off their hand(s) to prevent them from using a weapon or grabbing someone.
My thoughts are that we do need to be wise about those who call themselves believers and yet live outwardly sinful lives along the lines mentioned in the Corinthians verses you quoted. Their behavior tarnishes the witness of Christ through the church. If stubbornly unrepentant they put themselves in the category of the devil and his angels who believe in Christ and yet tremble because they do not wish to live for God. They are courting the possibility of apostasy.
Also, about the condition of the world around us, my thoughts are that this is not the most evil time in history. It may seem that way because the western world is becoming more and more disobedient to God and the Gospel of Christ, more and more scoffers and mockers who openly challenge the righteous living of believers with their flaunting of sinful living. The world has been cruel, idolatrous, revilers of God and His truth since before the flood and shortly after (think Babel) and all throughout history (think of the persecution of Christian under Roman rule, the slaughter of the Islamic takeovers of countries in the 700's, and the enslavement of so many groups of people throughout time.
We just notice these things more because it is happening before our very eyes. There are many areas of the world where the Gospel is advancing in leaps and bounds with new believers bring added daily in great numbers, but in the western world,
true faithful Christian people are declining and the believers in these cultures are getting more and more worldly.
We should still desire to share the gospel with others because it is what we are called to do from Scripture. If few accept the Gospel, that is no reason to be discouraged, both elect and non-elect need to hear the Gospel. God is the one who brings anyone to faith in Him, so we share the Gospel and leave the conversion to God. Those who refuse the Gospel may come to Christ at a later time or never at all. God knows who are to become His.
I know I shouldn't be upset. All the wickedness going on in the world is making me crazy. We know that Jesus is right at the door, and as Matthew 24:13 says, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Christians take a lot of flack for simply trying to give The Lost the information they need to be saved. They don't want to hear it. It's very frustrating.
What does 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 mean? We should shun phony Christians and not fret over the unsaved????
1Corinthians 5:
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
What are your thoughts??
The Old Testment was given to Hebrews about 1500 BC. Let's not forget that that Law represented societies of that time. God gave them a law that was familiar to them, all other nations at that time, Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Mesopotamians had similar Laws. So all those practises and customs were already known to them by their living in those other places. They were accustomed to them. Those people at that time didn't have the same mind as we have today. Today we could never consider those practises as normal, we would never eg marry our brother's wife if he died without leaving children or we wouldn't pick our servant to have children with her if our wife could not make children like Abraham did and many other things in the O.T. So don't consider those rules under modern standards. How about the idea that one could have slaves? It cannot even pass through our mind nowadays but at that time it was normal. GBU
12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.
"the secrets" = private parts. "cut off her hand"
Isn't this overkill?
But raping women is just fine???
The more I read the Bible the more I just want to avoid people and stay in the house.
I have come to believe the Bible does NOT teach that God's Judgment for our sin and rebellion against God includes conscious existence in a place called Hell where we will endure pain and suffering that continues for billions and billions of years without any end, i.e for ever and ever.
The Bible does teach I believe that the wages of sin is eternal death. That is eternal destruction, annihilation. This means of course that if we die unsaved there is no eternal inheritance for us living and reigning with Christ forever in the New Heavens and New Earth in eternal bliss that never ends. All that is lost which in itself is a terrible punishment.
The conventional understanding of God's Final Judgment for sin, of suffering and torment that has no end is inconsistent with everything in the Bible that speaks about the Mercy of God. To believe that would mean that an unsaved baby who dies at childbirth would suffer consciously without any end whatsoever. The idea of an "age of accountability" is nowhere found in the Bible and unless saved in the womb we are sinners from birth as the Bible clearly teaches.
Furthermore God is perfectly righteous which means that God has obligated Himself to follow the Laws that He sets forth, including the Law of Deuteronomy 25:1-3 that punishment for the wicked is Limited. It has an end.
So when when a person dies unsaved they will never again have conscious existence.
Now if we are unsaved and still living when Christ returns to Resurrect and Rapture All whom He has saved throughout time, and enter into the Day of Judgment there will be intense suffering and shaming. But that will come to an end when Christ destroys this sin-cursed earth and Satan and all the fallen angels by fire, and there will be no remembrance of anything related to this creation in eternity. God then creates New Heavens and a New Earth where all of those saved will live and reign with Christ throughout eternity, world without end.
Luke 12:47,48
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Deuteronomy 25:1-3
If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked. And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number. Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
How do these passages fit with the conventional understanding that God's Judgment for the wicked is conscious existence and eternal suffering that never ends in a place called Hell?
Would we not expect God's punishment for the wicked to be consistent with His Law and have a limit?
The biggest difference that you cite is, of course, the nature of God's judgment on the unsaved.
Your understanding reflects the understanding and teaching of essentially every church and denomination throughout the church age. And when I was in the church, I did not question that understanding either. I have quite recently come to believe otherwise, and will provide what I believe to be some scriptural proof in future postings.
I believe that Hellmin the Bible refers to the grave. And I believe God's punishment for sin is death. That is both physical death. And the death of our soul. It is not a death of eternal suffering as the church has taught. It is annihilation. And I understand that is heretical to what we have been taught in the churches and what most believe. I am only going to present a passage here that you and others may want to ponder. It is a Law that God lays down in Deuteronomy 25.
Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
Deuteronomy 25:2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
Deuteronomy 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
God is declaring here that there is a limit to punishment that mankind is to observe. And God not only requires mankind to obey this law. But God himself is bound by this law, as he has not repealed it anywhere in the Bible, that I am aware of.
More on this later, as I have run out of room here.
Let me just say that this is an example of the incredible mercy of God.
The Father of Joseph, Mary's Husband Was Jacob
( Matthew 1:16)
The Father of Mary's Was Heli ( Luke 3:23
Mary's husband, Joseph, traced his "family tree" back to King David, through Solomon
Mary's father, Heli (or Eli), could trace his family back to Nathan, the second surviving son of David through Bathsheba
both Joseph's and Mary's lineages could be traced back to King David
The people Jesus was speaking to, understood that for of discipline/punishment because it was very publicity done in their society, see Deuteronomy 25:1-3, 2Corinthians 11:23,24, Acts 16:23, Proverbs 19:29,
Isaiah 53, Isaiah 53:5,
Context Luke 12, it starts off Luke 12:1 "In the meantime._.._." therefore you have to go back a page or more to get fuller context. Luke 11, starts Luke 11:1 "And it came to pass._._" also a continuation but atleast you can see a good contextual beginning in Luke 11:1 they were asking Jesus to teach them to pray. Jesus started to teach them Luke 11:2-52, also bringing the Church Leadership into correction, while teaching all around, including those leaders. Luke 11:53-54, those leaders were waiting for a time to trip him up. Luke 12, begins as that moments continuation, so Jesus in the crowds chaos continued teaching Luke 12:1 "._._.. Beware ye of the ._._.hypocrisy ", (please read in context) Jesus then encourages us & all around Him, the Love GOD has for us & HIS promises of provision of all needs, even during wrongful persecution & death. Luke 12:3-40, with continued warning of hypocrisy, Luke 12:41-59, notice Luke 12:45, mistreatment of others, disregard of responsibility as Stewardship, leadership, ect.
Looks like Jesus is talking about being responsible for those people & things put into the care, trust of HIS "servants" knowingly or unknowingly sinning against, if you're a leader, trusted with anyone & especially the Church.
Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 7, Romans 14:12,
Hopefully these are helpful
Thanks for listing the verses of your perceived contradictions. You're making a giant claim by claiming "The Bible contradicts itself quite often." Have you actually done a deep study into each of your claims to determine if other explanations exist that you haven't yet considered or is this just a snap judgment? Just because you assume they're contradictions doesn't mean they are and doesn't seem to justify trying to discredit the Bible on a Bible site. If you would like we can address each of these one at a time. In reality you could also just take a few seconds to Google search it and find logical explanations for each of these points from sites like got questions, carm, etc but still, I'm happy to have a dialog.
For now I'll just point out that your first difficulty with geneologies, the geneology of Matthew may be through Joseph and geneology of Luke may be through Mary. Can you see how that would result in a different geneology? Another view is that Matthew is a biological geneology and Luke recorded a legal geneology through levirate marriage. Deuteronomy 25:5. Another possibility is that Joseph had two fathers. Can you see how now in just a short paragraph that either of these could easily explain what you assumed was a contradiction. Because the Bible was meticulously recorded, inspired by God, and is the truth, isn't it more likely that in each of these there is a logical explanation you haven't yet thought of, rather your assumptions being true?
[save website on desktop for easy access]
Judah's firstborn son Er has died, killed by God for an unnamed wickedness. Since Er died without leaving children, Judah has told his second oldest son, Onan, to take Er's widow Tamar as his wife. His responsibility is to have children with her, raising those offspring on behalf of his brother. This was a strong custom in the region at the time, and it would be part of God's law for the nation of Israel ( Deuteronomy 25:5-6).This would ensure that the departed man's line could continue. It would also provide for the woman's care, giving her children to support her as she aged.
Onan doesn't like the idea. According to this custom, the children will legally be considered heirs of his dead brother. The time and resources Onan must provide caring for them won't be part of his legacy. Some portion of his future earnings and estate will go to children who are legally and culturally considered someone else's sons.
In response, Onan deliberately avoids conceiving children with Tamar. If that meant avoiding intercourse with her, his choice would merely have been callous. The later, formal version of "levirate marriage" would include a way for the surviving brother to avoid taking on the new wife ( Deuteronomy 25:7-10). Instead, Onan takes advantage of both the situation and of Tamar. He uses her for sex but interrupts the act at the very end to prevent conception. This is not a single event, but a pattern: it was Onan's choice "whenever" he had sex with Tamar. For that, God will strike Onan dead ( Genesis 38:10).
This sin and its dire consequences inspired the term "Onanism." This word is most often applied to what modern people label as "masturbation." A common assumption is that God punished Onan for self-gratification, or for having sex simply for pleasure. Strictly speaking, however, Onan's sin was how he used Tamar for sex while deliberately avoiding taking the responsibilities
Deuteronomy 25:4
Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
1 Corinthians 9
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1 Timothy 5
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
Verses 5 through 10 indicate a rule for the house of Israel; something that didn't deem direct sanction or punishment from God; but did allow for the "in your face" reaction by an offended widow expecting the "duty" of a brother living in the same house to continue her offspring within the family name by marriage. Such a brazen act of spitting in the face; and the symbolic one of loosening the shoe showed the opposite of the endearment of the Kinsman-Redeemer in the story of Ruth with Boaz. This was part of God's plan for the nation of Israel at the time-we may not relate today as modern day Americans but this is God's Word.
On the other hand; verses 11 through 12 seem overly harsh to a wife protecting her husband; nonetheless it demonstrates certain parts of the body are to be held sacred even in this case.
Verse 14 through 15 is yet another of many admonitions to have just and fair balances to enact transactions. This seems to transition into verse 16 about Amalek concluding the chapter. This shows how a past transgression affects God's further administration of justice; even after many generations. Here; the offspring of Amalek were told to be wiped out. It shall be assumed that there were either giant hybrids involved; or God knew that there would be no repentance among his descendants. We may not understand; but all of God's ways are right.
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified! ( 2 Timothy 2:15 Romans 16:25 Ephesians 3:9 = Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans - Philemon}, For ALL "to SEE, today?)
We Must Be Very Careful not "to blaspheme The Holy Spirit" = (as the Jews did) "attributing The 'Work Of The Holy Spirit' unto men/Satan, Instead Of To God." Matthew 12:31; Mark 3:28-30 Correct?
Some 'May Be confused' so, Other "Confirming" studies are here
Solving water Confusion:
Part 1 Link
Part 2 Link
Israel's 'water' for the priesthood = various washings:
Part 1 Link
Part 2 Link
All are invited to study "ALL The Holy Scriptures" on this Important Issue - Be Encouraged!
So, I appreciate your story. We are not alike in the way you explained as far as my motivations. But we each have things to learn and ways to grow. A site like this is helpful towards these things. I am well aware that I may say things that upset people, just as people say things that unsettle my spirit, as well. I don't intend to be controversial. But I am not afraid to speak a view that may not be commonly held by others on this site. So, like you said, people may get angry with me. I just let them own that unless they can point out where something I have said is unkind or otherwise sinful. Then I will repent and apologize. That is why I ask for clarification, so I can go before the Lord and see if I have wronged anyone with what I have said. If so, I am to own that.
For, me, like others, God has brought us here together to wrestle with viewpoints so that His truth will prevail. And so, I think each of our viewpoints is important to contribute. That is why I post, because I think my viewpoint may be helpful to someone.
Many of us certainly are not passive. But we are wanting to hold out the word of truth to those who need it. God Bless.
You should have heard me when I first came on the site 2020 Christmas eve.
I assumed I would be needed as help to fend off false doctrine, I was ambitious and ready to go. I'm sure some remember.
And to top it off once I heard Brother Chris and a few others I was like GREAT TEACHINGS!! And then out of excitement I made the unforgettable comment!! I said- Quoting " I thought this site needed me to help protect it from false doctrine but they have great teachers here!! I don't think that went well. Lol. Then I get into a debate about the marks of a Christian nation and the fruitfulness of our nation, I believe that rub some people wrong and some held that against me till this day.
I've decided to be more of a supporter to those who teach what I believe to be the truth. I struggled and still do as do you, But atleast we're not passive.
God bless.
I've returned to answer a few questions you asked me.
You asked: how I was disrespectful?
Well, the original post was 2 days ago, and you never responded to the lady's posting, "April" that's why I said these posts are not directed at you. If so, the original reply would have been sent to you. I was expanding on at topic that come up often that I didn't have time to engage in but said I would when time permits.
You posted addressed to me before I ever responded to the post, I gave an "Amen to Brother Jesse post and to Grace post, with the focus on water baptism isn't required for salvation. That was the narrative!
You quoted "I am not saying that water baptism saves. I am saying it is the act of obedience" whether water baptism is out of obedience or for salvation is 2 different narratives and this post was dealing with the salvation issue. Your focus seemed to be on me as I second and supported others in the tread.
And no, you don't have less privilege in posting your viewpoint on the subject because you are new to the site, but your viewpoint should have been addressed to April that way we would have stuck to the narrative, "Does water baptism saves" you said you doesn't believe it does, but you colleagues believe otherwise.
You stated.
Now quoting:
I am not trying to be contrary here. I can tell you may be a bit bothered. We disagree on this subject. I'm good with that. We both can post our viewpoints and respond to posts as we see fit. Well, you have been given that respect, give it to others. Adress your viewpoint to the post not to the responders or to someone saying "Amen" especially if we agree on the narrative. "Is water baptism for salvation". Dispensation and transitional period were just embodied in the discussion and wasn't to take precedence over the narrative.
I hope this explains
GOD BLESS.