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Thanks again Jimbob for your thoughts on this. Tribulation or Great Tribulation? I see a difference. The apostles, the early Church & believers today are not exempt from tribulation; it will come to us as declared ( Matthew 13:21; John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Romans 8:35; 2 Corinthians 7:4; etc): not just physical hardships, but certainly the exercises by the enemy against us, even to testings of faith & martyrdom. We are not insulated from any of these, nor should we expect to be, but what of the Tribulation sent by God our Father? You shared 1 Thessalonians 3:4, "For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know." You understand that Paul was referring to the Great Tribulation, of God's Wrath. I don't see that at all in his discourse, rather, that Paul was describing his own afflictions (vv 3,7 & coupled with 1 Thessalonians 2:2,9,14). I see a clear difference between the two expressions of Tribulation: that which comes to all of us, & that which is only directed to haters of God & His Christ.
What then are we not appointed to? To our daily tribulations, even to suffering or dying for Christ, or to God's Wrath to unbelievers? I note that you agree to this: that believers won't face the outpouring of God's Wrath against a Christ-rejecting World, by your understanding that this outpouring will happen only after the believers are caught away (i.e. post-tribulation). The contention then is: is God's Wrath the same as the Great Tribulation? I believe the Great Tribulation is still to come - we haven't in the least begun to experience anything of it now. When it starts, we know that the time of the end is at hand and believers will be caught away before the world begins to feel the Mighty Hand of God against them. (cont'd).
part 3 continued..
"They know not, neither will they understand; they walk in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High. But ye shall die like men; and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth; for thou shalt inherit all nations."
Here the judges appointed over Israel were called "gods" because they represented God before the people when they judged matters. But God speaks ill of them because they were wicked and made unjust judgments. He was not affirming that they were indeed, divine beings, nor that they would or could become so. No, rather, God was judging them to be mere men who will face death as every human will.
In Acts 14:11-15 says, "And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia; The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter, and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabus and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein."
Here, the people were so sure that Paul and Barnabas must be gods because they had miraculously healed a crippled man. But the apostles were grieved that the people would treat them as gods and wished to sacrifice to them. They refused such worship and pointed the people to the living God instead.
see next post....
As a simple man, my understanding of faith is based on belief, trust, obedience, and thanksgiving, from our mind to our heart, a relationship offered by God through the sacrifice and resurrection of His Son Jesus, and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Faith is a responsibility likened to marriage referred to many times in the bible. Our commitment and love are shown by our actions, which come from our hearts to our hands as in James 2:14-17 which is sometimes misunderstood as works for salvation.
This faith is a gift we have been given, its growth is dependent on how it is fed. Jesus said faith as small as a mustard seed can move a mountain, that shows how large it can grow in the word of God and prayer. We can sometimes hinder its growth as said in Col. 2:8 following the majority down the wide road when the truth is down the path that has grown up from the lack of traffic.
It will be tried, we have been told we will be tempted and will have tribulation in this world that many say we will be spared, John 16:33 Acts 14:22, but that builds patience, James 1:3. We see we will need if we are here, we will need in the great tribulation Rev. 13:10.
The growth of our faith is to add "virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity' 2 Peter 1:4-8.
This may not be what you are looking for but just my thoughts.
And we also have references to other 'apostles', such as Barnabas ( Acts 14:14); James (the Lords brother, Galatians 1:19); Epaphroditus ( Philippians 2:25, note: 'messenger' in the Greek is 'apostolos'); & Titus & a few others ( 2 Corinthians 8:23; again 'apostolos' used here). I understand these men, though referred to as apostles, were apostles in the general sense of doing the apostolic work (today, we would call them 'missionaries'). So, Paul spoke of them as apostles, yet were not numbered with the original twelve, plus Paul. In that sense, today's missionaries taking the Gospel to unreached peoples could also be considered as apostles, doing the same work that Jesus commanded the twelve plus one, to do.
Acts 12 again shows process of time, note Acts 12:25, Acts 14:21-28, again Acts 15, note Acts 15:33,36, Acts 27, Acts 28:11,
Acts 18:11,18, Acts 19:10,22, Acts 20:3, Acts 24:27, Acts 28:30
Hopefully these are helpful
Judas Iscariot, with the other eleven, were never apostles while they travelled around with Jesus. They were called Disciples (i.e. a student, a follower of a Rabbi or teacher). They were only known as Apostles after Jesus died, arose from the grave, & He sent them out into the world. Apostle, means 'one sent out; a messenger'.
After Judas Iscariot died, Matthias was appointed as his replacement & this appointment was from God ( Acts 1:24-26, i.e. the eleven prayed asking God to direct them to this new disciple). So, men did not choose Matthias, God did by their casting of lots. And this had to be, as Peter declared, by referring to the fulfilment of Psalm 41:9; Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8.
True, we don't hear of Matthias, but the lack of information doesn't mean that he just disappeared & went back to his occupation, or whatever else. We don't hear again of several of the other disciples either after Acts 1:13.
Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ. As was Apostle Barnabas ( Acts 14:14), James (the Lord's half-brother; Galatians 1:19), possibly Timothy & Silas ( 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 1 Thessalonians 2:6, if Paul was using 'we' to refer to them as apostles as well). And Paul often had to emphasize his apostleship to the Churches, & even defend it, as believers were being seduced to believe otherwise (as much of 2nd Corinthians indicate).
So, from what we read in the Scriptures, Matthias was the twelfth disciple, being an apostle, & subsequently, Paul & others were either called by the Lord to apostleship, or considered as apostles because of their ministry of getting the Gospel out.
Paul wrote two letters to Timothy who was pastoring the church in Ephesus. Timothy's name is mentioned 24 times in the New Testament. Timothy was from Lystra and he was saved during Paul's first missionary journey ( Acts 14:19-20; Acts 16:1-2)
His mother Eunice, and his grandmother Lois, were godly Jewish women. In fact, Timothy was taught the Old Testament scriptures since he was a little boy. So he has a scriptural background. Timothy was about 15-years-old when he first met Paul. And when Paul writes his letter to Timothy, he's approximately 35. So he has spent approximately 20 years with Paul in ministry learning.
Even though Timothy's mother and grandmother were godly Jewish women, his father was a pagan Greek. ( Acts 16:1; 2 Timothy 1:5). Timothy was raised hearing Old Testament Scriptures. ( 2 Timothy 3:14-15). He joined Paul, along with Silas and Luke, during second missionary trip. ( Acts 16:3).
Paul had Timothy circumcised so that he might have the freedom to preach the gospel in Jewish synagogues. ( Acts 16:3; 1 Corinthians 9:20). He could not do that unless he was circumcised. Timothy was ordained by Paul and the Presbytery. ( 1 Timothy 4:14; 2 Timothy 1:6). He accompanies Paul on his third missionary trip. ( Acts 19:22; Acts 20:4; 2 Corinthians 1:1, 1:19).
Timothy ministered in at least five churches as Paul's representative:
1) Thessalonica ( 1 Thessalonians 3:2, 3:6)
2) Corinth ( 1 Corinthians 4:17; 16:10; 2 Corinthians 1:19)
3) Philippi ( Philippians 2:19-23)
4) Berea ( Acts 17:14)
5) Ephesus ( 1 Timothy 1:3)
Timothy was with Paul during Paul's first imprisonment ( Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:1; Philemon 1:1) and went to Philippi after Paul's release. ( Philippians 2:19-23). Timothy was around 35-years of age when Paul wrote I Timothy. Timothy also suffered imprisonment. ( Hebrews 13:23).
Hope this helps!
Matthew 1:6 Jesus called Christ, John 4:25, Luke 6:15, John 1:42, John 11:16, not Colossians 4:11,
Romans 2:17, Romans 7:3, same supposed writer as Acts , also Romans 9:26
Matthew 26:14, Luke 23:33, John 19:13, John 19:17, Acts 6:9, Revelation 11:8,
Luke 2:4, Luke 8:2, John 21:2, different than Acts 9:11,
Acts 1:23, Acts 9:36,
Colossians 3:15, 1John 3:1,
Hopefully these are all helpful in your study
Please read Matthew 24, & Mark 13, Jesus' words : Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you" ._.._.._.. Matthew 24:7-9, "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilence, and earthquakes, in diverse places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my names sake." ._..
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." ._.._
Matthew 24:21-22 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
And except those days should be shortened, there shall no flesh saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." ._._._.
Matthew 24:29-30 "immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Also repeated in Mark 13,
Hopefully these are helpful in you study of the Word
Deuteronomy 4:29,30,31, 1Samuel 26:24, Matthew 13:20-21, John 16:33, Acts 14:22, Romans 5:3, Romans 8:35-39, Romans 12:12, 2Corinthians 1:3-5, 1Thessalonians 3:4, 2Thessalonians 1:6, Revelation 1:9, Revelation 2:9,10,22,
There seems to be a difference between tribulation & The great Tribulation,
Matthew 24:21, Romans 2, Revelation 7:14,
Matthew 24:3-51, Mark 13:4-37,
John 3:15-21, Matthew 25:31-46,
My understanding is, this is the deception of deceptions and will cause the great falling away, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Part of this deception is that the great tribulation and the wrath of God are taught as being the same thing. We must understand the wrath of God comes after the second coming of Jesus not before. Matthew 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27.
It developed in the 17th Century, and it quickly led to an understanding that the rapture of the church would be an event separate from and before the second coming of Christ. It was made popular by John Darby, and he is thought by many to be the originator but not. C.I. Scofield, with the study bible with footnotes, helped promote this doctrine of man. It started as pre-tribulation and still mostly believed in.
We as humans sometimes look for the easy way out, and many preachers oblige to fill the money plate that makes merchandise of people, 2 Peter 2:3. Scripture does not say we will be spared tribulation it says the opposite, Acts 14:22 John 16:33. It is debated that although all Christians go through some tribulation, there is yet a great tribulation to come those true believers will not have to undergo. So, who are these, Revelation 7:13-14 Revelation 20:4
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
The mark and saving our physical life is the temptation, that so many don't believe they will be here to face, that is the great deception. Keep from does not mean we will be spared from being killed it means to spiritually guard (watch), keep intact, Hebrews 3:6. The believers in Jesus in the past were not spared being beheaded, burnt on a stake, fed to the lions, why should we.
Like Mishael said there are many opinions on this and your question is there any scriptural support for pre-tribulation I would have to say no. God has not promised us to be spared tribulation, it is pretty much the opposite, John 16:33 Acts 14:22 2 Thessalonians 1:4. The Great tribulation and the wrath of God is two different things. God will spare us his wrath, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 His wrath will be on the unrighteous, Romans 1:18.
People looking to be raptured and taken to heaven before the beast shows up and the persecution worldwide starts will not be prepared and this may cause the great falling away. Some have taken the seventh week from Daniel and other scriptures to paint a beautiful picture that is not scriptural. Millions of dollars from movies, books, tv preachers have been made on this theory that started in the 1700s
Jesus told us in Matthew 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27 it will be after the tribulation. There is more but this should answer your question, if we are living when it starts, we will go through it, Matthew 10:22. We must do what Jesus told the disciples when they asked him about the end. The first thing He said was Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
There will be a great temptation coming, and we must be strong in our faith in His word, even unto death, because we have this promise. Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Here the apostle Paul gives warning unto all Christians concerning the millennial kingdom, he warns if Christians live an ungodly lifestyle of immorality in these seventeen sins or the like, they cannot inherit the kingdom of God. This warning is specifically speaking about not inheriting a kingdom, it is not speaking of Christians who live immoral lifestyles cannot go to heaven. The Kingdom of God is based upon conditional promises, Christians must qualify in order for them to make it into the millennial kingdom of God, otherwise they will remain in heaven until the thousand year kingdom has expired before being resurrected. The Apostle Paul gives this same warning in 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Ephesians 5:3-5 Even the Lord Jesus taught conditional promises must be met before a Christian is counted worthy to enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 7:21 The Lord Jesus taught if we bury our pounds we are denied entrance into the Millennial kingdom of Christ, as we must meet the conditions to qualify us. Luke 19:12-27 Again, the Apostle Paul taught conditional promises are required to make it into the millennial kingdom, as we must through much tribulation enter that kingdom of God. Acts 14:22
However, maybe you're thinking of women being pastors, as in leading the congregation & teaching from the Word. Then the Apostle Paul speaks again, to Pastor Timothy this time, in 1 Timothy 2:11-13, that as much as women too can teach from the Word, they are to refrain from doing so when in the Church. The word "pastor" means 'shepherd'. Certainly, women can shepherd others in their Christian walk, as there can be many 'pastors' in the Church (men & women). However, today, that word, 'Pastor', is generally applied to a 'Shepherd cum Teacher cum Preacher' when this appointment wouldn't be permissible for women. That is why Elders were appointed in every Church ( Acts 14:23), & they alone were given charge of the teaching, leadership & oversight of their congregations. Today, we see a number of congregations that have women taking charge of them & teaching from the pulpit. I can only refer to the Scriptures in response - they & the Churches will have to give account to God.
The reason for giving this order, was not that Paul had something against women or of their abilities in teaching & using their other gifts & talents, but that within Church worship, before God & His angels, the prescribed order of ministry must be observed. And this he instructed young Timothy, who was left in charge of the ministry in Ephesus & generally in Asia Minor. As capable as women may be in teaching, within the Church, the task of administering, leading & teaching from the Word was incumbent upon the brothers. Elders who were ordained in every Church ( Acts 14:23) were men & they also had been enabled by God to teach & lead the flock of God.
If the end starts in our lifetime the teachings of the rapture of the Church to heaven, will have many not prepared for what is coming. ( Daniel 12:1) ( Matthew 24:29-31) ( Mark 13:24-27) tell us after the tribulation Jesus sends His angels to gather His elect, the second coming, not the third.
The great tribulation is confused with the wrath of God. We will be spared the wrath of God but we are not told we will be spared tribulation, ( Acts 14:22) ( Romans 8:35) (2 Thessalonian 1:4). When the end starts and the things that scripture tells us that is coming, I feel many that trust in this teaching will lose their faith because they are still here.
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved".
All the saints before, and what they had to endure, burning at the stake, crucifixion, beheadings, fed to lions, and more. Are we better or more worthy than they, to be spared? Do we exalt ourselves above those who came before us? Christians are still today being killed.
1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This verse is said shows we meet Jesus and are taken to heaven. Is anywhere in this verse where our destination is? Does this verse say we go to heaven? How can we assume something that is not written? Does being carried to heaven line up with the other scriptures about Jesus's second coming? Where are the chosen told they will reign, heaven or earth?
Millions of dollars have been made from this theory.
2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
May we walk and be led by the Holy Spirit of truth.
Just a couple of things to keep in mind: you will read of 'tribulation' in the Bible, but you need to ascertain whether it is the 'Great Tribulation' that is being spoken of. We will all go through tribulation while living in the world ( John 16:33, Acts 14:22), but the Great Tribulation is different ( Matthew 24:21).
The Great Tribulation is a short period of time where the outpouring of God's Anger is seen & felt & this Anger is against the world of sinners where God causes a great annihilation through various means. You can compare it to the time of the Great Flood or to the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah: all these were specific to God's Anger & Judgement rather than from the usual effects of living in a sinful world & condition. And the righteous were saved from His Anger (i.e. Noah, Lot & families) while the others were destroyed.
As Christians, cleansed & saved by the blood of the Lamb, our judgement against sin has already been accomplished at the Cross. Then ask, 'do we have to once again suffer the judgement of God with other Christ-rejectors?' If so, the work at the Cross hasn't fully accomplished its purpose as we would have to be dealt with twice under God's Hand: once in Mercy (seeking forgiveness & spiritual healing/restoration) & then again without Mercy, in Judgement with the others. Or, is His Church removed before His Terrors against sinners are poured out?. And here I speak of God's Judgement only & not at the revelation of the Anti-Christ, which event is not part of that Judgement (Revelation chapters 6 to 19).
For your consideration & discussion in your online Bible study. Blessings.
Acts 14:22 .....that we through MUCH TRIBULATION enter into the kingdom of God.
It's been 2000 years since Christ preached the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD ( Mark 1:14) under the theory of the seven year tribulation (still waiting) no one would have entered in the kingdom of God.
Revelation 1:9 I John, whom also am your brother, and COMPANION IN TRIBULATION, and in THE KINGDOM...
It appears that John believed he was living during the time of TRIBULATION.
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.
The opposite is also true: if you have a big lunch & its a lovely warm day, it doesn't take much for the body to relax & slowly drift away into sleep (for me at least). But when the body is denied food & coupled with a determination to bring our matters before the Lord, then our spirits are more centred on this & stray thoughts & need for sleep are kept at bay. As well, I would think that the Lord also sees the earnestness of our hearts about our matters before Him & we in a sense 'wrestle with the Lord' in prayer as Jacob did physically with God's Angel, saying, "I will not let thee go, except thou bless me." ( Genesis 32:26). And James in James 5:16 says, "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much", which almost implies that if we choose to fast & pray, then this adds 'weight' to our fervent, effectual praying. Does this make our prayers more powerful? If our prayers are then made in full faith not doubting, in full earnestness, in full agreement with the Will of God, then yes, by fasting, both ourselves & God are pressed into 'action': from us, focused fervent prayer; from God, being conscious of our appeal to Him & not letting go until we see His Hand move.
Maybe others here on this Site, who engage in fasting & prayer may be able to help you further in this matter.
Spike, we generally understand that this letter, as also 3 John, are attributed to the Apostle John. Even though the letters don't indicate this, the early Church fathers, including Polycarp, a contemporary of John, ascribed the letter to the aged John (around 90 yrs of age). As well, even though elders were appointed in the Church by this time ( Acts 14:23, James 5:14, etc.), John's use of the word "Elder" speaks of his old age & apostolic position rather than any sign of humility. He was the last apostle to enter Glory & so probably felt a greater burden to give his remaining time to full use.
We aren't told who the "elect lady" was. She is generally referred to as Kuria or Kyria, but that is debatable as it doesn't come from any reliable source. Yet, from John's letter, we assume that she was a lady of note (a person, not a Church), who was faithful to Christ with her family & may have even received teachers of the Word into her home & supported the ministry. In any case, John had an approving view of her & hoped to see her on a visit - which we don't believe ever took place. You could also be correct, in that John abstained from naming her as it might have been improper & too forward to address a lady by name. And this may be clarified by his naming Gaius in his third letter.
So Mercurius, or Hermes was a god of travel, commerce, communications, eloquence: to which Paul was likened for his speech. And Jupiter, or Zeus was the king god of the sky, thunder, lightning, law & justice.
Other Greek gods: Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Aphrodite, Hermes, Dionysus, etc. These names I gleaned from the Web. And these gods would also be included in their religious & family practise.
The LORD granted unto the apostles signs and wonders to be done by their hands to validate their testimony of grace ( Acts 14:3; Romans 15:19).
In a similar fashion, Peter was used of the LORD to restore Tabitha, known as Dorcas, back to life in Acts 9.
John chapter 16 is Jesus preparing his disciples for difficulty, ending with "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (verse 33).
Acts 14:22 is an exhortation to continue in the faith through tribulation.
Romans chapter 8 is Paul's testimony on hardship and the believer's victory in Christ Jesus.
Revelation 2:8-11 is Jesus encouraging the suffering Church.
Revelation 7:9-17 shows us a great multitude come out of tribulation, redeemed by the blood of the lamb.