c. "How have we been justified? Christ has paid the full penalty, eternal DEATH for the sins of those He is saving by being perfectly faithful in taking upon Himself all of the sins of each of His Elect". John 3:16 states that God so loved the world (not just the Elect), that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish". Here, I understand that God's Love extends to both the Elect & non-Elect (the world), but of those in the World who place their trust in Him (proving they're the Elect of God), will not go the way of eternal damnation, but of eternal life.
d. Did Christ die "an eternal death" for us? Not sure if you meant that Christ died & saved us from the eternal death that we were destined for.
Part 4: you referred to the Galatians' passages. The reason for Paul's reference to the Law, was because of the Judaizers (Jewish Christians - Galatians 1:7) who taught those in the Galatia region, that obedience to the Law was necessary (Works) for salvation & Paul's Gospel was defective (i.e. justification by faith alone plus nothing, not even the Mosaic Law).
So from here we begin to separate in our understanding of this Doctrine of Salvation. You have asked the question, "So what is a good WORK? Are our BELIEF, our FAITH, our REPENTENCE good WORKS? The best definition of a "good WORK", I believe, is "any obedience to the COMMANDMENTS of God, the LAW of God". Of course you believe that not only obedience to the Law of God is a 'Good Work', but also belief, faith, & repentance are. 2 Thessalonians 1:11 does not speak of Faith as a work towards salvation, but of having Faith that works in the believer's life & Paul prayed 'for a powerful faith in them'.
Ephesians 2:8,9 is actually a great example of a God-given Faith in Salvation, which is not included in a works-based salvation. Faith is God's Gift to believe - leading to salvation.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the WORKS of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the WORKS of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:1,2 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the WORKS OF THE LAW, or by the hearing of faith{Christ's faith}?
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the WORKS OF THE LAW are under the CURSE: for it is written, CURSED is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
In these verses God is making it crystal clear that if we are following a gospel that is conditioned upon our good WORKS, we are CURSED.
So what is a good WORK? Are our BELIEF, our FAITH, our REPENTENCE good WORKS? The best definition of a "good WORK", I believe, is "any obedience to the COMMANDMENTS of God, the LAW of God". Are we not COMMANDED to Believe and to have FAITH in Christ; are these not "gifts" of God and part and parcel of Salvation?
2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:
Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Phil 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is GOD WHICH WORKETH in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Our Faith, Belief, Repentance are WORKS and a RESULT and EVIDENCE of, not REQUIREMENTS for, Salvation.
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
Where in the bible does it say that the soul will cease to exist? If anyone ceases to exist when they die, can you please answer these questions. I will be the student here, so you have my attention. If you choose to answer these things, I do thank you ahead of time.
In Matthew 25:46, Is this not describing two classes of people, those who received Christ and belong to Him, and those who have rejected Him? If those who reject Him die and cease to exist, how can they go away into eternal punishment if they do not exist?
Revelation 14:11 says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night. How can this be for someone that does not exist?
Hebrews 9:27 tells us that it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. How can anyone who dies and ceases to exist be judged since this judgment comes (after) death?
Revelation 21:8 identifies a class of individuals who will end up in the lake of fire, and it also mentions that this is the second death. If they went through the first death and ceased to exist, how can they experience a second death if they do not exist?
2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that they will suffer the punishment of (eternal destruction), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. How is ceasing to exist considered suffering?
Jema, since Romans 6:23 has been quoted which says that the wages of sin is death, how do you get cease to exist out of this word death when the Greek word used (Thanatos) means separation, not cessation of life? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that at death, there is a separation from our physical body since this is what the word death means?
Revelation 14:10 talks about being tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Who is this for and how long will this torment last?
I have more questions to follow. Thank you for your time.
the "clouds" that is referred to in Rev.1:7, I am beginning to think it is an army/cavalry like I 1st suggested.
( Revelation 1:7) "Behold, he ((cometh WITH clouds)); and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."
( Zephaniah 1:14-15 KJV) "That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of ((clouds)) and thick darkness,"
( 2 Thessalonians 1:7) "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven ((WITH his mighty angels)),"
( Revelation 19:14 KJV) "And the ((armies)) which were in heaven followed him upon ((white horses)), clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
I'm sorry Rainwalker, the belief in a literal Hell & a literal eternal torment for those who have rejected God & His Christ is not an idea from the dark ages nor from the Vatican - this is Scripture & plenty of them to support it. It's how one chooses to read, understand & accept the teachings from the Word that is in question - the Word does not change.
Look at Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:9; Matthew 25:31-46; Mark 9:42-48; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10; Jude 1:7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10,14,15. These do not speak of an annihilation, but of torment. And what were "their works"? Works of sinful lives, of self-glorification, of being God-haters & Christ-rejecters. If we remove the eternal suffering of Hell, we've lost a great part of our Gospel message, i.e. we not only won't have a Gospel to preach, we won't even need to preach the Gospel. Jude 1:23, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
If the preacher hasn't got the awful image before him of souls for whom Christ died, going into an eternity of torment, then that preacher is preaching a watered down Gospel, one that tickles the mind but doesn't wrench the heart - a Gospel that only requires a glib acceptance of a lowly Jesus but not weeping in sorrow for sin's wretchedness before an Holy God. Christ didn't give up His Life only to bring sinners into Heaven, but to save them from His Father's Judgement sending them to an eternity of suffering. This is why the cost of Salvation had to be so great - it took the Son of God to come between an Holy God & a hell-deserved, hell-bound sinner. We all have to die one day - but through Christ, not all have to be consigned to Hell.
Thanks Tammy. Yes 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 is very important. You're correct that Paul gives them insight when the Day of Christ will begin. The Thessalonians feared that it had already begun, being troubled by false teachers, that they were in it already (because of 2 Thessalonians 1:4) & the Lord had not yet come (even as Paul had earlier spoken to them about "these things" (v5)). So again, Paul had to rehearse these matters with them to assure & comfort them to pay heed to him & not others, that they had not missed out on Christ's coming, "and by our gathering together unto him".
That there has to first be a departure from the faith (an apostasy); I understand this to be the general deterioration within the Church (as we even see now with the preaching of error & the Church, which ought to be seen as the Light & Body of Christ, has become in many places, a haven for Satan to have his way & lead many devout earnest people happily into hell's pit). And after this will be the revelation of the anti-Christ.
Is it at this point (mid-trib) that you believe the world, including the Church will go into the Great Tribulation & come under the anti-Christ? Or, could it be that this is at the very beginning of the Day of Christ, where the Great Tribulation is about to begin but first there will be the "falling away & the revelation of the man of sin"? If, as I believe, the Gt. Tribulation is the tribulation from God (His Wrath & not man's daily tribulations), then I understand Paul stating to the believers there, 'the rapture will happen first at the introduction of the man of sin & then God's Wrath - so don't be misled that that day has already started.'
Before the Wrath (the Great Tribulation) must come the rapture - the anti-Christ is revealed because God has allowed it by removing His Restrainer - and if His Wrath is to be poured out on unbelievers, where is His Church, the one which was not appointed to receive His Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
Jimbob you do not realize it but you are in essence saying that the clouds and the air and wind are the gifts of God....But its only the H.G. that is the gift of God....But clouds/Air and wind is just simbolic language for folks that have that living water the H.G. The spirit.. the gift of God.. 2 Thessalonians 1:10... He is gonna be admired and Glorified in his saints simply b/c he comes in his saints....Not literal clouds....As the gift of God is the H.G....You keep saying we will meet him in the AIR...Buts not true, Air is just symbolic language for the Spirit the gift of the H.G...folks that live right here on this earth....Ya gotta realize that its only the H.G. that is the Kingdom of God....We cannot meet him in literal AIR...We can only meet him in
the spirit the gift of the H.G. is spirit not literal AIR OR WIND....Clouds are just symbolic for folks that have that living water the H.G. the Kingdom of God....But you keep making all these derogatory remarks of me not understanding that i am right...This Rev.11:15 kills any and all physical literal Rapture doctrine....As the Kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our lord and his Christ and he shall reign forever and ever...Right here on this earth...Thus there is no physical Rapture...We are caught away but only in the spirit the gift of H.G...As our God is spirit....Not AIR...Yes there are some scriptures that say that GOD is coming in the clouds...But the clouds are symbolic for folks that have the H.G the Kingdom of God....Thats y the sower of that good seed wants to sow his precious seed in our hearts....That the Kingdom might be right here on this EARTH....Defeating satan who is the god of this earth at this present time...k Gbu
I appreciate the ongoing discussion Jimbob we're having as very few are prepared to persevere in it. Yes, I did mention 'imminency & suddenness', but also mentioned 'readiness' ("In the NT, the command was for readiness"). We will have to leave that one, as after my revisiting those passages because of your comment, I still see that all three as adverbs are in use or implied, including, 'watchfulness'. We'll have to leave those Scriptures for other readers to examine.
Matthew 24:29-31. I read that as the Second Coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation days & that Jesus' rule upon the Earth will be with his elect living on the Earth at that time. It does not speak of those who will be instantly caught up to be with Christ (i.e. without the gathering of them together by the angels) & to be with Christ forever. Here, in the Rapture, those of the living & dead believers will be "changed" ( 1 Corinthians 15:52), i.e. physically reconstituted ("putting on incorruption") to be with Christ in the heavenlies, whereas this isn't a requirement for those 'of the elect' on the Earth who are gathered & relocated to Jerusalem (presumably).
Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of the vision that John received of all those who had laid down their lives for Christ. Not only those who came to believe in the Truth & resisted the Anti-Christ during his reign, but the multitudes since the Church's inception that have remained faithful to the Lord & willingly went to their deaths. Yes, we can suffer now (in tribulation), even as those who went before us, but this is part & parcel of following Christ ( John 16:33); including Romans 8:16-18; Philippians 1:29; 2 Thessalonians 1:4,5; 2 Timothy 2:11,12; etc (as you shared). I read this as the 'common' tribulation (trials of faith) that believers can experience, but not of the Great Tribulation (at the Day of the Lord).
Praise God for that great testimony Tyler1222. It is the Lord Himself Who can minister to us where all our pain & ignorance lie - even dealing with those areas where modern medicine cannot reach. As Malachi 4:2 declares: "...unto you that fear my name (the LORD's Name) shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings...". Oh that we might experience the Son's special healing in every area of our lives, to His praise & Glory. 2 Thessalonians 1:11,12.
Messianic and prophetic in nature; Psalm 68 is full of references to the destruction of the armies of the earth and the restoration of Israel and God's Covenant people along with the world at large eventually coming to worship the true and living God.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 discuss the Lord returning in vengeance with flaming fire; and this verse is hardly isolated in the scriptures; as we see finally occurring in Revelation 19. That pretty much sums up the first 2 verses of this Psalm.
The rest of the first half of the Psalm through verse 17 focuses on the deliverance of God; with the personal view of families (widows and fatherless) being represented in verse 5 and 6; where captives are also said to be released. These verses and their themes are repeated in Isaiah 42 as well as Isaiah 49. Taken literally; it would seem that there will be a final Exodus in volving children especially; which occurs during the Tribulation for slave purposes which will end abruptly at the return of the Lord. There will clearly be many widows of those who survive until the Millennium which will have children returned in some cases by royalty; who will basically bow down in the dust and act as foster parents. Verse 18 seems to bolser this idea with worship of the Lord in the Temple which finally fulfills its role to be "a place of prayer for all nations" ( Isaiah 56:7 also quoted by Jesus in the N.T. Gospels). Even MORE support is given in verses 29-32 for this concept.
These verses and many others sadly are often taken as symbolic language which takes much of the impact out of the passages. There needs; of course to be some latitude when we observe symbolism within a text of literal descriptions as to interpretation but hopefully the joy and awe of God's Providence won't be unnecessarily watered down because it seems to go against some sort of specific doctrinal stance. Let us be as Bereans searching the Scriptures daily and dividing rightly.
While you didn't directly address the questions, your chosen response indicates you might believe the New Testament isn't literal and are just parables to you, is that correct? You quoted the old testament suggesting that you might think that's literal, however. Do you mind sharing how you came to this belief?
For the benefit of anyone else reading this there are plenty of verses in the Bible about the literal hell:
Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:43-48 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
etc
Do you believe Jesus literally is Lord and literally died on the cross for you?
This chapter gets into the trials and tribulations of the saints (v. 4); and the subsequent judgment of God in verse 6. One can't help but wonder how great the accumulated sins from the dawn of the church age until now is; and how it factors into wrath once it finally transpires.
(see Rev. 18:5).
Verses 7 through 10 make it clear that indeed the return of Christ; destruction of enemies (in Armageddon and judgment in hell); as well as our promotion ruling and reigning on earth in the Millennial period (verse 10) factors in. There are 3 passages that state every knee shall bow and every tongue confess ( Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10 and Romans 14:11).
We are not to seek vengeance ( Romans 12:19). However; we are doing God no favors by attempting to dampen down a character attribute that He has; in this case rewarding His saints and punishing the wicked. Perhaps those who being persecuted are the best examples of those who understand the need for Divine justice. The saints under the throne in Revelation certainly aren't scolded for asking "how long" ( Rev. 6:9); with response in verses 10-11. With Paul and the churches under heavy persecution at this time this was a necessary statement; and the frequent reminder to endure until the end. In order to warn others of the wrath to come; we certainly must believe in eternal judgment and a literal hell.
If we think people simply cease to exist (or are annihilated) it dumbs down the message and doesn't help anyone to have full conviction of sin ( John 16:8-11).
In regards to James Davis' query on the city of our Father in OT. The only description provided can be found in Ezekial and mainly deals with the new Temple that will be there. The actual description of the city (New Jerusalem) can be found in Revelation.
Hi "Ruth" all answer is right, a personal experience here, i did not know where i stood. I wandered here and there, and unfortunately i also followed the spirit of the times in this world, the antichrist.
Because since we that time still where "children", we have every right not to know everything, every right to ask, explore, learn and so on. We still do Everyday. 2 Thessalonians 1:12Acts 8:16
But when the Spirit in us awakens, we will no longer go around making mistakes. The Holy Spirit helps us if we let Him lead us where we do belongs. Namely with God in our Spirit where we can find strength, courage and forgiveness Spirit and the Spirit of love. And everything else good is there.
That Spirit makes us living Sources who speak right and do right because we believe in Jesus Christ Is the Son of God. Nor will the Holy Spirit ever stop and give us words in our mouths to preach about Jesus Christ. John 7:38
So when i walked around there in the dark before God found me. I did not have this Source because i was not filled with the Holy Spirit.
But here we come to something central and important. All God gives us is Grace over Grace. Because when i look back on my life without Him and my life with Him, i understand that i have been under Grace because He has been with me from the first day of my life.
Because when we are lost or confused, we can not even say the Lord Jesus name. Only if we are in the Holy Spirit can we say that.
1 Corinthians 12:3
At this stage i am also comforted since He has been so gracious to me. I want to believe that He is just as gracious with everyone else. When we can not say Jesus Christ from our mouths if we are not in the Holy Spirit. So i hear people say Jesus Christ with their mouths, is not it a confession in a way? Therefore, i attribute these people to the Lord. And He saves them to Himself after His will, i'm moving on. Hallelujah the Lord is near. Acts 8-9 Chapter. God bless us in Jesus Christ.
Charity and it a manifestation of love and not love itself. Jesus said when you do unto one of the lest of these you do it unto me. 1 Corinthians 13:13
"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."
1 Corinthians 16:14
"Let all your things be done with charity."
Colossians 3:14
"And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness."
2 Thessalonians 1:3 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
1 Peter 4:8
"And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."
Like Mishael said there are many opinions on this and your question is there any scriptural support for pre-tribulation I would have to say no. God has not promised us to be spared tribulation, it is pretty much the opposite, John 16:33Acts 14:222 Thessalonians 1:4. The Great tribulation and the wrath of God is two different things. God will spare us his wrath, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 His wrath will be on the unrighteous, Romans 1:18.
People looking to be raptured and taken to heaven before the beast shows up and the persecution worldwide starts will not be prepared and this may cause the great falling away. Some have taken the seventh week from Daniel and other scriptures to paint a beautiful picture that is not scriptural. Millions of dollars from movies, books, tv preachers have been made on this theory that started in the 1700s
Jesus told us in Matthew 24:29-31Mark 13:24-27 it will be after the tribulation. There is more but this should answer your question, if we are living when it starts, we will go through it, Matthew 10:22. We must do what Jesus told the disciples when they asked him about the end. The first thing He said was Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
There will be a great temptation coming, and we must be strong in our faith in His word, even unto death, because we have this promise. Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Satan always starts with an if. Satan then offers something in exchange.. Satan has not improved his method ,it has worked time and time again for him. We see that strong delusion in or government today. We are not to be ignorant about what is taking place. It will end with the coming of Jesus.
English Sacha. Is that what you have gleaned from what I addressed to Earl? You've made some assumptions that clearly are emotive rather than what I had written or is revealed in the Bible. We're discussing the fact of God's Judgement to all who are not saved through Jesus Christ.
How God decides who are worthy of judgement (whether some primitive soul or those with mental shortcomings, etc), is God's matter, not mine nor yours. If you believe this God of Love is incapable of judging sinners in such a manner, then you would need to consider the operation of God throughout Scriptures - i.e. He is indeed a God of Love but also a God of Justice. We can often be conditioned by the world & what we perceive to be right, to think of such a justice system as normal, as true. Whereas God's Justice always demands the correct penalty - and unfortunately, simply losing one's life in death (which happens to us all) is just one part of that justice. The wages of sin might indeed be death, but the wages for the rejection of God & His offer of salvation are far greater ( Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:7-9; Matthew 25:31-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Jude 1:6,7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10-15). And sister GiGi has also given a very apt response to you.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 - Portion of An Excellent Article: "The Day Of The LORD!
The Scriptures have much toSay about 'theDay ofThe LORD,' but precisely whatisTheDay ofThe LORD?
Generally speaking, of course, it refers to the time when the day of man, or "the timesof the Gentiles," will be brought to an end, and "The LORD AloneShallBeExalted"
(Isaiah2:11,17; Isa 2:11; Isa 2:17; Isa 2:11, 17). But will it include more than the actual Return andReign of CHRIST?
Will it include the prophesied tribulation period, during whichGod will bring Gentilerule to an end? We believe it will.
One pastor who teaches that the Body of CHRIST will go through the tribulation andthat its Rapture to be with CHRIST will followthe tribulation, writes:
'TheDay ofThe LORD follows the tribulation and it is the day of the LORD's wrath upon those who 'know not God and obey not TheGospel of ourLORD JESUSCHRIST' ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8). It comes as 'a thief in thenight,' which is not so with the tribulation.'
But this interpretation does not take into account ALLThatIs SaidIn Scripture about'TheDay ofThe LORD' - and contradicts some of it."...
...No, the Rapture of the Body of CHRIST to be With HIM will not follow the tribulation; it will precede it. Thus the Apostle Paul, after writing about the Rapture of the Body in 1 Thessalonians 4, continues in Chapter 5 with The Word "But," to show the disrelation of God's prophesied 'times and seasons' and 'The Day of The LORD,' From That Blessed Day {Of CHRIST 2 Th 2:2, et al}, for which every believer should be "looking, waiting, And watching!"...
(Full Article: "The Day of the Lord -- What Is It?" - by Pastor Cornelius R. Stam)
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
I don't know if you believe in hell or not. Most Christians do, because the Bible warns us about hell. So, if you believe in hell, the next question is how long does it last? Instant destruction/death, medium term death, long term, or eternity? The Bible uses different synonyms, examples, parables, etc to describe hell. For example, if you keep reading in Matthew 7 verse 19 it calls it a 'fire'. Matthew 8:12 says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mark 9:48 says the worm never dies and fire unquenched. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says "everlasting destruction." I interpret this is not short. Revelation 20:10 also suggests it's not short in duration. Jude 1:7 - uses the word "eternal fire." Matthew 25:46, Matthew 25:41. These are only a handful of examples and I think there are more suggesting that hell is not an instant death. If you find just as many verses saying hell is instant and you die instantly, please share them. I also don't believe the word death or destruction automatically means it's instant. It can happen over a longer period of time. For example Adam and ate the fruit and was condemned to death, but lived 930 years. He became mortal and died just like God said and it wasn't instant, but the death was slow. Is it out of the question to consider the same could be true for hell, especially since many verses say it's eternal?
People will likely interpret the duration differently and we probably won't know for sure until the end. But because of the scripture, the context, that hell is intended to be a punishment for those who disobeyed, I do not believe it is an instant death. I think people will be very sorry and deeply regret they disrespected God and did not take Him seriously and I believe God will fairly see those who chose evil are punished. God bless.
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Romans 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Ezekiel 3:21
Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
Matthew 10:41
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Matthew 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Once I got busted by Jesus for judging. We were street ministering; and all the Catholics would drive by the Catholic Church, tip their beers and holler out the priests names. honk the horn at us :/
The Holy Spirit leaned on me and said quietly but no nonsense..DO NOT JUDGE !
Jesse said: "a non-believer can become a believer and still not be forgiven. A person has to be born of God's Spirit in order to be forgiven and saved. Belief is important, but belief itself does not bring salvation. Receiving Jesus Christ and being born of His Spirit is what saves a person. With that salvation comes forgiveness."? According To Plain/Clear Scriptures?:
Precious friend, then I must Misunderstand: "Repent, and Believe The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God"? = "Believe On CHRIST, His Death, Burial, and Resurrection, by GRACE Through faith {BELIEF, trust}." ( 1 Corinthians 15:3-4) ( Ephesians 2:5-9)?
I must Misunderstand "trusting CHRIST" In ( Ephesians 1:12)? Also:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of The LORD, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF of The Truth:" ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13)?
"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE..." ( Romans 3:22)? compare ( Romans 4:11) ( Romans 4:24) ( 1 Corinthians 1:21) ( Galatians 3:22) ( Ephesians 1:19) ( Philippians 1:29) ( 1 Thessalonians 1:7) ( 1 Thessalonians 2:13) ( 1 Thessalonians 4:14) ( 2 Thessalonians 1:10)
Finally IF I BELIEVE, "but sins are NOT forgiven," how is it that I HAVE Life Everlasting, According To ALL The above Plain And Clear Scriptures About "BELIEF"?:
"Howbeit for this cause I obtained MERCY, that in me first JESUS CHRIST might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter BELIEVE ON HIM to Life Everlasting." ( 1 Timothy 1:16)?
Upon my BELIEF Of Truth, did not The Holy Spirit Baptize ( 1 Corinthians 12:13) me Into The Body Of CHRIST, God "forgiving my sins," in the twinkling of an eye?
Now, IF you are referring to "water baptism for the remission of sins" that is altogether
Another Different Bible study we could pursue, IF you wish...
Righteous Judgment and the Legal Process - In Reply on 1 Timothy 3 - 2 years ago
'PEOPLE', is very large blanket kind of statement. Instead of naming a person, you accuse the entire group. These are just a few of the 5700 scriptures that deal with judgment. Mishael
John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
2 Peter 2:8
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
2 Thessalonians 1:6
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Matthew 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
1 Corinthians 11:31
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
In your prayers, forgive. Then petition the Lord Jesus to be judge between those who offend your conscience and understanding of scripture. Jesus...is our go-to person in such matters.
Book of Job 1:
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God (evil angels) came to present themselves before the LORD (on His Throne), and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Comment=they show up when they have someone to accuse. Satan=Accuser
Always take your "legal issue" before the Lords Throne first. He has the best ATTORNEY, JESUS CHRIST.
We are here to bring praise to his name, for his goodwill and pleasure. God is Sovereign, we need him, not the other way around. I tell you my friend read his word, pray the answer will always come just as he sees fit.
Below are some verses that cover this topic
Philippines 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure
Ephesians 1:5-6 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved
Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
2 Thessalonians 1:10-12 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
OnlytruthintheworldKJV - In Reply on Mark 3 - 3 years ago
Praise Jesus!
All glory and honor to His mighty saving name! O/!
Thanks for the encouragement.
Yea we must proclaim the truth in love.
Ezekiel 33:6 KJV
But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
Jesus is returning to catch up a virgin chaste spotless bride of believers who are baptized in His name & filled with His Spirit. I pray that I will persevere to the end and can warn & lead as many others as the Lord wills into the fold.
For He is also returning:
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that (a.) know not God, and that (b.) obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
2 Thessalonians 1:8
If someone believes Jesus Christ the Son of God is a "pre-incarnate" "co-equal" deity of a "triune" triple God, then they (a.) don't know God ( Matthew 7:21-22).
And if they haven't been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ( Acts 2:38), then they (b.) haven't obeyed His gospel.
After reading your post I am moved to send you a reply. To me it shows your true love to your wife. That you could not bear to leave her & also not wanting her to feel the rejection of you leaving her. As you thought maybe the best thing would be for you to die and give her peace. Jesus Christ states that there is no greater love than to give your life for your friend. John 15:13.
Now after your own sickness or "infection" it has moved over to your wife and now she is in "assisted living". The most important thing is the Lord came and spake to you in your dream stating "This is your cross to bear". This is a blessing and not everyone receives these things. In the most simple sens from what I feel is that this is your time to suffer. Jesus Christ suffered for us, gave His life for us, and now as "this is your cross" this is your time to suffer. Please my brother, stay strong in your faith to the Lord and do not even let death separate you from Jesus Christ. Trust in Him. The devil is not in control and even if this is the evil one's doing.. God knows everything and there is a reason for it. It may be to bring you closer to Him.
Read the book of (1 Peter as it goes over suffering well. 2 Thessalonians 1:5 is a good verse. As a teaching of Jesus Christ in the book of John is that no servant is greater than his Master. If the world hates you or persecutes you remember it did it to me first(paraphrasing) John 15:18-20. In faith I also believe the Lord would mean this to be for suffering. In that if we suffer remember He suffered for us first.
I hope my reply helps you and renews your hope in the Lord. Focus on Him. Keep praying from the heart in humbleness. Do not fear the devil.
May the Spirit grace us with His truth an understanding.
If there are not two judgments, then how are the saints going to judge the world; because all have to be judged.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come (during a persons physical lifetime) that JUDGMEMT must begin at the house of God ( Hebrews 3:6): an if it first begin at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God.
1 Corinthians 11:31-32 For if we would judge ourselves (by the word of God), we should not be judged.
(vs 32) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord (as children), that we should not be condemned with the world.
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect (love your enemy), that we may have boldness in the day of judgment (in our lifetime), because as he is (he loves his enemies), so are we in this world.
Jude 1:15 To execute judgement on all, and to convince all (some are convinced in their lifetime some are not)....
2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and TRIBULATIONS that you endure:
(vs 5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, which you also suffer:
1 Timothy 5:24 Some men's sins are open before hand, going before to judgment; and some men they (judgments) follow after.
There are many more scriptures that confirm two judgments if you look for them; most don't look but are happy to follow the traditions of man.
In Revelation 22:11 I discern a definite reference to the closing of human probation upon the earth since the language spoken declares them forever after the character our Lord Jesus says they are. In chapters 15: verses 1, 7 and 8, then chapter 16, we have the time for the pouring out of God's wrath (without mixture according to Revelation 14:10). The reference of those who live in the very end of human probation will live through the time of trouble. while the holy righteous class have the promise of mercy and protection even from the holy cherubim (see Psalms 27 and 91) the rest who are unjust and filthy shall receive the full wrath of God and be slain afterwards by the brightness of our Lord's glorious appearing, when He comes to be glorified in His saints. Both 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8; 2:8; Revelation 19:21. These Scriptures help us also to understand how the Lord will be said to come as a thief in the night during the outpouring of His wrath. His wrath upon those who have been marked for wrath are in contrast to them that are sealed in their foreheads. I am saddened that many will be unprepared to meet Him in peace, either because the have failed to put off sins by repentance and faith in our Lord and Savior, Messiah Jesus. Also many will be lost because they have been given a delusional eschatology and told they will be removed before the time of God's wrath. Jesus is coming soon, may we all be ready.
c. "How have we been justified? Christ has paid the full penalty, eternal DEATH for the sins of those He is saving by being perfectly faithful in taking upon Himself all of the sins of each of His Elect". John 3:16 states that God so loved the world (not just the Elect), that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish". Here, I understand that God's Love extends to both the Elect & non-Elect (the world), but of those in the World who place their trust in Him (proving they're the Elect of God), will not go the way of eternal damnation, but of eternal life.
d. Did Christ die "an eternal death" for us? Not sure if you meant that Christ died & saved us from the eternal death that we were destined for.
Part 4: you referred to the Galatians' passages. The reason for Paul's reference to the Law, was because of the Judaizers (Jewish Christians - Galatians 1:7) who taught those in the Galatia region, that obedience to the Law was necessary (Works) for salvation & Paul's Gospel was defective (i.e. justification by faith alone plus nothing, not even the Mosaic Law).
So from here we begin to separate in our understanding of this Doctrine of Salvation. You have asked the question, "So what is a good WORK? Are our BELIEF, our FAITH, our REPENTENCE good WORKS? The best definition of a "good WORK", I believe, is "any obedience to the COMMANDMENTS of God, the LAW of God". Of course you believe that not only obedience to the Law of God is a 'Good Work', but also belief, faith, & repentance are. 2 Thessalonians 1:11 does not speak of Faith as a work towards salvation, but of having Faith that works in the believer's life & Paul prayed 'for a powerful faith in them'.
Ephesians 2:8,9 is actually a great example of a God-given Faith in Salvation, which is not included in a works-based salvation. Faith is God's Gift to believe - leading to salvation.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the WORKS of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the WORKS of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:1,2 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the WORKS OF THE LAW, or by the hearing of faith{Christ's faith}?
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the WORKS OF THE LAW are under the CURSE: for it is written, CURSED is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
In these verses God is making it crystal clear that if we are following a gospel that is conditioned upon our good WORKS, we are CURSED.
So what is a good WORK? Are our BELIEF, our FAITH, our REPENTENCE good WORKS? The best definition of a "good WORK", I believe, is "any obedience to the COMMANDMENTS of God, the LAW of God". Are we not COMMANDED to Believe and to have FAITH in Christ; are these not "gifts" of God and part and parcel of Salvation?
2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:
Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Phil 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is GOD WHICH WORKETH in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Our Faith, Belief, Repentance are WORKS and a RESULT and EVIDENCE of, not REQUIREMENTS for, Salvation.
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
God bless you.
(Part 1):
Where in the bible does it say that the soul will cease to exist? If anyone ceases to exist when they die, can you please answer these questions. I will be the student here, so you have my attention. If you choose to answer these things, I do thank you ahead of time.
In Matthew 25:46, Is this not describing two classes of people, those who received Christ and belong to Him, and those who have rejected Him? If those who reject Him die and cease to exist, how can they go away into eternal punishment if they do not exist?
Revelation 14:11 says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night. How can this be for someone that does not exist?
Hebrews 9:27 tells us that it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. How can anyone who dies and ceases to exist be judged since this judgment comes (after) death?
Revelation 21:8 identifies a class of individuals who will end up in the lake of fire, and it also mentions that this is the second death. If they went through the first death and ceased to exist, how can they experience a second death if they do not exist?
2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that they will suffer the punishment of (eternal destruction), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. How is ceasing to exist considered suffering?
Jema, since Romans 6:23 has been quoted which says that the wages of sin is death, how do you get cease to exist out of this word death when the Greek word used (Thanatos) means separation, not cessation of life? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that at death, there is a separation from our physical body since this is what the word death means?
Revelation 14:10 talks about being tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Who is this for and how long will this torment last?
I have more questions to follow. Thank you for your time.
the "clouds" that is referred to in Rev.1:7, I am beginning to think it is an army/cavalry like I 1st suggested.
( Revelation 1:7) "Behold, he ((cometh WITH clouds)); and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."
( Zephaniah 1:14-15 KJV) "That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of ((clouds)) and thick darkness,"
( 2 Thessalonians 1:7) "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven ((WITH his mighty angels)),"
( Revelation 19:14 KJV) "And the ((armies)) which were in heaven followed him upon ((white horses)), clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
God bless.
"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS,"
Maybe this is what the "behold he cometh with clouds" represent?
Look at Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:9; Matthew 25:31-46; Mark 9:42-48; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10; Jude 1:7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10,14,15. These do not speak of an annihilation, but of torment. And what were "their works"? Works of sinful lives, of self-glorification, of being God-haters & Christ-rejecters. If we remove the eternal suffering of Hell, we've lost a great part of our Gospel message, i.e. we not only won't have a Gospel to preach, we won't even need to preach the Gospel. Jude 1:23, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
If the preacher hasn't got the awful image before him of souls for whom Christ died, going into an eternity of torment, then that preacher is preaching a watered down Gospel, one that tickles the mind but doesn't wrench the heart - a Gospel that only requires a glib acceptance of a lowly Jesus but not weeping in sorrow for sin's wretchedness before an Holy God. Christ didn't give up His Life only to bring sinners into Heaven, but to save them from His Father's Judgement sending them to an eternity of suffering. This is why the cost of Salvation had to be so great - it took the Son of God to come between an Holy God & a hell-deserved, hell-bound sinner. We all have to die one day - but through Christ, not all have to be consigned to Hell.
That there has to first be a departure from the faith (an apostasy); I understand this to be the general deterioration within the Church (as we even see now with the preaching of error & the Church, which ought to be seen as the Light & Body of Christ, has become in many places, a haven for Satan to have his way & lead many devout earnest people happily into hell's pit). And after this will be the revelation of the anti-Christ.
Is it at this point (mid-trib) that you believe the world, including the Church will go into the Great Tribulation & come under the anti-Christ? Or, could it be that this is at the very beginning of the Day of Christ, where the Great Tribulation is about to begin but first there will be the "falling away & the revelation of the man of sin"? If, as I believe, the Gt. Tribulation is the tribulation from God (His Wrath & not man's daily tribulations), then I understand Paul stating to the believers there, 'the rapture will happen first at the introduction of the man of sin & then God's Wrath - so don't be misled that that day has already started.'
Before the Wrath (the Great Tribulation) must come the rapture - the anti-Christ is revealed because God has allowed it by removing His Restrainer - and if His Wrath is to be poured out on unbelievers, where is His Church, the one which was not appointed to receive His Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
the spirit the gift of the H.G. is spirit not literal AIR OR WIND....Clouds are just symbolic for folks that have that living water the H.G. the Kingdom of God....But you keep making all these derogatory remarks of me not understanding that i am right...This Rev.11:15 kills any and all physical literal Rapture doctrine....As the Kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our lord and his Christ and he shall reign forever and ever...Right here on this earth...Thus there is no physical Rapture...We are caught away but only in the spirit the gift of H.G...As our God is spirit....Not AIR...Yes there are some scriptures that say that GOD is coming in the clouds...But the clouds are symbolic for folks that have the H.G the Kingdom of God....Thats y the sower of that good seed wants to sow his precious seed in our hearts....That the Kingdom might be right here on this EARTH....Defeating satan who is the god of this earth at this present time...k Gbu
I appreciate the ongoing discussion Jimbob we're having as very few are prepared to persevere in it. Yes, I did mention 'imminency & suddenness', but also mentioned 'readiness' ("In the NT, the command was for readiness"). We will have to leave that one, as after my revisiting those passages because of your comment, I still see that all three as adverbs are in use or implied, including, 'watchfulness'. We'll have to leave those Scriptures for other readers to examine.
Matthew 24:29-31. I read that as the Second Coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation days & that Jesus' rule upon the Earth will be with his elect living on the Earth at that time. It does not speak of those who will be instantly caught up to be with Christ (i.e. without the gathering of them together by the angels) & to be with Christ forever. Here, in the Rapture, those of the living & dead believers will be "changed" ( 1 Corinthians 15:52), i.e. physically reconstituted ("putting on incorruption") to be with Christ in the heavenlies, whereas this isn't a requirement for those 'of the elect' on the Earth who are gathered & relocated to Jerusalem (presumably).
Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of the vision that John received of all those who had laid down their lives for Christ. Not only those who came to believe in the Truth & resisted the Anti-Christ during his reign, but the multitudes since the Church's inception that have remained faithful to the Lord & willingly went to their deaths. Yes, we can suffer now (in tribulation), even as those who went before us, but this is part & parcel of following Christ ( John 16:33); including Romans 8:16-18; Philippians 1:29; 2 Thessalonians 1:4,5; 2 Timothy 2:11,12; etc (as you shared). I read this as the 'common' tribulation (trials of faith) that believers can experience, but not of the Great Tribulation (at the Day of the Lord).
Messianic and prophetic in nature; Psalm 68 is full of references to the destruction of the armies of the earth and the restoration of Israel and God's Covenant people along with the world at large eventually coming to worship the true and living God.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 discuss the Lord returning in vengeance with flaming fire; and this verse is hardly isolated in the scriptures; as we see finally occurring in Revelation 19. That pretty much sums up the first 2 verses of this Psalm.
The rest of the first half of the Psalm through verse 17 focuses on the deliverance of God; with the personal view of families (widows and fatherless) being represented in verse 5 and 6; where captives are also said to be released. These verses and their themes are repeated in Isaiah 42 as well as Isaiah 49. Taken literally; it would seem that there will be a final Exodus in volving children especially; which occurs during the Tribulation for slave purposes which will end abruptly at the return of the Lord. There will clearly be many widows of those who survive until the Millennium which will have children returned in some cases by royalty; who will basically bow down in the dust and act as foster parents. Verse 18 seems to bolser this idea with worship of the Lord in the Temple which finally fulfills its role to be "a place of prayer for all nations" ( Isaiah 56:7 also quoted by Jesus in the N.T. Gospels). Even MORE support is given in verses 29-32 for this concept.
These verses and many others sadly are often taken as symbolic language which takes much of the impact out of the passages. There needs; of course to be some latitude when we observe symbolism within a text of literal descriptions as to interpretation but hopefully the joy and awe of God's Providence won't be unnecessarily watered down because it seems to go against some sort of specific doctrinal stance. Let us be as Bereans searching the Scriptures daily and dividing rightly.
Agape. Rich P.
While you didn't directly address the questions, your chosen response indicates you might believe the New Testament isn't literal and are just parables to you, is that correct? You quoted the old testament suggesting that you might think that's literal, however. Do you mind sharing how you came to this belief?
For the benefit of anyone else reading this there are plenty of verses in the Bible about the literal hell:
Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:43-48 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
etc
Do you believe Jesus literally is Lord and literally died on the cross for you?
(see Rev. 18:5).
Verses 7 through 10 make it clear that indeed the return of Christ; destruction of enemies (in Armageddon and judgment in hell); as well as our promotion ruling and reigning on earth in the Millennial period (verse 10) factors in. There are 3 passages that state every knee shall bow and every tongue confess ( Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10 and Romans 14:11).
We are not to seek vengeance ( Romans 12:19). However; we are doing God no favors by attempting to dampen down a character attribute that He has; in this case rewarding His saints and punishing the wicked. Perhaps those who being persecuted are the best examples of those who understand the need for Divine justice. The saints under the throne in Revelation certainly aren't scolded for asking "how long" ( Rev. 6:9); with response in verses 10-11. With Paul and the churches under heavy persecution at this time this was a necessary statement; and the frequent reminder to endure until the end. In order to warn others of the wrath to come; we certainly must believe in eternal judgment and a literal hell.
If we think people simply cease to exist (or are annihilated) it dumbs down the message and doesn't help anyone to have full conviction of sin ( John 16:8-11).
Because since we that time still where "children", we have every right not to know everything, every right to ask, explore, learn and so on. We still do Everyday. 2 Thessalonians 1:12 Acts 8:16
But when the Spirit in us awakens, we will no longer go around making mistakes. The Holy Spirit helps us if we let Him lead us where we do belongs. Namely with God in our Spirit where we can find strength, courage and forgiveness Spirit and the Spirit of love. And everything else good is there.
That Spirit makes us living Sources who speak right and do right because we believe in Jesus Christ Is the Son of God. Nor will the Holy Spirit ever stop and give us words in our mouths to preach about Jesus Christ. John 7:38
So when i walked around there in the dark before God found me. I did not have this Source because i was not filled with the Holy Spirit.
But here we come to something central and important. All God gives us is Grace over Grace. Because when i look back on my life without Him and my life with Him, i understand that i have been under Grace because He has been with me from the first day of my life.
Because when we are lost or confused, we can not even say the Lord Jesus name. Only if we are in the Holy Spirit can we say that.
1 Corinthians 12:3
At this stage i am also comforted since He has been so gracious to me. I want to believe that He is just as gracious with everyone else. When we can not say Jesus Christ from our mouths if we are not in the Holy Spirit. So i hear people say Jesus Christ with their mouths, is not it a confession in a way? Therefore, i attribute these people to the Lord. And He saves them to Himself after His will, i'm moving on. Hallelujah the Lord is near. Acts 8-9 Chapter. God bless us in Jesus Christ.
"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."
1 Corinthians 16:14
"Let all your things be done with charity."
Colossians 3:14
"And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness."
2 Thessalonians 1:3 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
1 Peter 4:8
"And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."
Like Mishael said there are many opinions on this and your question is there any scriptural support for pre-tribulation I would have to say no. God has not promised us to be spared tribulation, it is pretty much the opposite, John 16:33 Acts 14:22 2 Thessalonians 1:4. The Great tribulation and the wrath of God is two different things. God will spare us his wrath, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 His wrath will be on the unrighteous, Romans 1:18.
People looking to be raptured and taken to heaven before the beast shows up and the persecution worldwide starts will not be prepared and this may cause the great falling away. Some have taken the seventh week from Daniel and other scriptures to paint a beautiful picture that is not scriptural. Millions of dollars from movies, books, tv preachers have been made on this theory that started in the 1700s
Jesus told us in Matthew 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27 it will be after the tribulation. There is more but this should answer your question, if we are living when it starts, we will go through it, Matthew 10:22. We must do what Jesus told the disciples when they asked him about the end. The first thing He said was Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
There will be a great temptation coming, and we must be strong in our faith in His word, even unto death, because we have this promise. Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
God bless,
RLW
How God decides who are worthy of judgement (whether some primitive soul or those with mental shortcomings, etc), is God's matter, not mine nor yours. If you believe this God of Love is incapable of judging sinners in such a manner, then you would need to consider the operation of God throughout Scriptures - i.e. He is indeed a God of Love but also a God of Justice. We can often be conditioned by the world & what we perceive to be right, to think of such a justice system as normal, as true. Whereas God's Justice always demands the correct penalty - and unfortunately, simply losing one's life in death (which happens to us all) is just one part of that justice. The wages of sin might indeed be death, but the wages for the rejection of God & His offer of salvation are far greater ( Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:7-9; Matthew 25:31-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Jude 1:6,7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10-15). And sister GiGi has also given a very apt response to you.
The Scriptures have much toSay about 'theDay ofThe LORD,' but precisely whatisTheDay ofThe LORD?
Generally speaking, of course, it refers to the time when the day of man, or "the timesof the Gentiles," will be brought to an end, and "The LORD AloneShallBeExalted"
(Isaiah2:11,17; Isa 2:11; Isa 2:17; Isa 2:11, 17). But will it include more than the actual Return andReign of CHRIST?
Will it include the prophesied tribulation period, during whichGod will bring Gentilerule to an end? We believe it will.
One pastor who teaches that the Body of CHRIST will go through the tribulation andthat its Rapture to be with CHRIST will followthe tribulation, writes:
'TheDay ofThe LORD follows the tribulation and it is the day of the LORD's wrath upon those who 'know not God and obey not TheGospel of ourLORD JESUSCHRIST' ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8). It comes as 'a thief in thenight,' which is not so with the tribulation.'
But this interpretation does not take into account ALLThatIs SaidIn Scripture about'TheDay ofThe LORD' - and contradicts some of it."...
...No, the Rapture of the Body of CHRIST to be With HIM will not follow the tribulation; it will precede it. Thus the Apostle Paul, after writing about the Rapture of the Body in 1 Thessalonians 4, continues in Chapter 5 with The Word "But," to show the disrelation of God's prophesied 'times and seasons' and 'The Day of The LORD,' From That Blessed Day {Of CHRIST 2 Th 2:2, et al}, for which every believer should be "looking, waiting, And watching!"...
(Full Article: "The Day of the Lord -- What Is It?" - by Pastor Cornelius R. Stam)
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
( 2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 = Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans - Philemon}, today?)
I don't know if you believe in hell or not. Most Christians do, because the Bible warns us about hell. So, if you believe in hell, the next question is how long does it last? Instant destruction/death, medium term death, long term, or eternity? The Bible uses different synonyms, examples, parables, etc to describe hell. For example, if you keep reading in Matthew 7 verse 19 it calls it a 'fire'. Matthew 8:12 says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mark 9:48 says the worm never dies and fire unquenched. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says "everlasting destruction." I interpret this is not short. Revelation 20:10 also suggests it's not short in duration. Jude 1:7 - uses the word "eternal fire." Matthew 25:46, Matthew 25:41. These are only a handful of examples and I think there are more suggesting that hell is not an instant death. If you find just as many verses saying hell is instant and you die instantly, please share them. I also don't believe the word death or destruction automatically means it's instant. It can happen over a longer period of time. For example Adam and ate the fruit and was condemned to death, but lived 930 years. He became mortal and died just like God said and it wasn't instant, but the death was slow. Is it out of the question to consider the same could be true for hell, especially since many verses say it's eternal?
People will likely interpret the duration differently and we probably won't know for sure until the end. But because of the scripture, the context, that hell is intended to be a punishment for those who disobeyed, I do not believe it is an instant death. I think people will be very sorry and deeply regret they disrespected God and did not take Him seriously and I believe God will fairly see those who chose evil are punished. God bless.
** John 7:24 **
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Romans 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Ezekiel 3:21
Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
Matthew 10:41
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Matthew 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Once I got busted by Jesus for judging. We were street ministering; and all the Catholics would drive by the Catholic Church, tip their beers and holler out the priests names. honk the horn at us :/
The Holy Spirit leaned on me and said quietly but no nonsense..DO NOT JUDGE !
All you can do is fall down and say YESSIR!!!
Precious friend, then I must Misunderstand: "Repent, and Believe The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God"? = "Believe On CHRIST, His Death, Burial, and Resurrection, by GRACE Through faith {BELIEF, trust}." ( 1 Corinthians 15:3-4) ( Ephesians 2:5-9)?
I must Misunderstand "trusting CHRIST" In ( Ephesians 1:12)? Also:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of The LORD, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF of The Truth:" ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13)?
"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE..." ( Romans 3:22)? compare ( Romans 4:11) ( Romans 4:24) ( 1 Corinthians 1:21) ( Galatians 3:22) ( Ephesians 1:19) ( Philippians 1:29) ( 1 Thessalonians 1:7) ( 1 Thessalonians 2:13) ( 1 Thessalonians 4:14) ( 2 Thessalonians 1:10)
Finally IF I BELIEVE, "but sins are NOT forgiven," how is it that I HAVE Life Everlasting, According To ALL The above Plain And Clear Scriptures About "BELIEF"?:
"Howbeit for this cause I obtained MERCY, that in me first JESUS CHRIST might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter BELIEVE ON HIM to Life Everlasting." ( 1 Timothy 1:16)?
Upon my BELIEF Of Truth, did not The Holy Spirit Baptize ( 1 Corinthians 12:13) me Into The Body Of CHRIST, God "forgiving my sins," in the twinkling of an eye?
Now, IF you are referring to "water baptism for the remission of sins" that is altogether
Another Different Bible study we could pursue, IF you wish...
Respectfully, ChrisE
John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
2 Peter 2:8
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
2 Thessalonians 1:6
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Matthew 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
1 Corinthians 11:31
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
In your prayers, forgive. Then petition the Lord Jesus to be judge between those who offend your conscience and understanding of scripture. Jesus...is our go-to person in such matters.
Book of Job 1:
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God (evil angels) came to present themselves before the LORD (on His Throne), and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Comment=they show up when they have someone to accuse. Satan=Accuser
Always take your "legal issue" before the Lords Throne first. He has the best ATTORNEY, JESUS CHRIST.
1 John 2:1 The Advocate.
Below are some verses that cover this topic
Philippines 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure
Ephesians 1:5-6 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved
Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
2 Thessalonians 1:10-12 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
All glory and honor to His mighty saving name! O/!
Thanks for the encouragement.
Yea we must proclaim the truth in love.
Ezekiel 33:6 KJV
But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
Jesus is returning to catch up a virgin chaste spotless bride of believers who are baptized in His name & filled with His Spirit. I pray that I will persevere to the end and can warn & lead as many others as the Lord wills into the fold.
For He is also returning:
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that (a.) know not God, and that (b.) obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
2 Thessalonians 1:8
If someone believes Jesus Christ the Son of God is a "pre-incarnate" "co-equal" deity of a "triune" triple God, then they (a.) don't know God ( Matthew 7:21-22).
And if they haven't been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ( Acts 2:38), then they (b.) haven't obeyed His gospel.
Be encouraged Sacha.
Be well, in Jesus' name.
After reading your post I am moved to send you a reply. To me it shows your true love to your wife. That you could not bear to leave her & also not wanting her to feel the rejection of you leaving her. As you thought maybe the best thing would be for you to die and give her peace. Jesus Christ states that there is no greater love than to give your life for your friend. John 15:13.
Now after your own sickness or "infection" it has moved over to your wife and now she is in "assisted living". The most important thing is the Lord came and spake to you in your dream stating "This is your cross to bear". This is a blessing and not everyone receives these things. In the most simple sens from what I feel is that this is your time to suffer. Jesus Christ suffered for us, gave His life for us, and now as "this is your cross" this is your time to suffer. Please my brother, stay strong in your faith to the Lord and do not even let death separate you from Jesus Christ. Trust in Him. The devil is not in control and even if this is the evil one's doing.. God knows everything and there is a reason for it. It may be to bring you closer to Him.
Read the book of (1 Peter as it goes over suffering well. 2 Thessalonians 1:5 is a good verse. As a teaching of Jesus Christ in the book of John is that no servant is greater than his Master. If the world hates you or persecutes you remember it did it to me first(paraphrasing) John 15:18-20. In faith I also believe the Lord would mean this to be for suffering. In that if we suffer remember He suffered for us first.
I hope my reply helps you and renews your hope in the Lord. Focus on Him. Keep praying from the heart in humbleness. Do not fear the devil.
God Bless you.
May the Spirit grace us with His truth an understanding.
If there are not two judgments, then how are the saints going to judge the world; because all have to be judged.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come (during a persons physical lifetime) that JUDGMEMT must begin at the house of God ( Hebrews 3:6): an if it first begin at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God.
1 Corinthians 11:31-32 For if we would judge ourselves (by the word of God), we should not be judged.
(vs 32) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord (as children), that we should not be condemned with the world.
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect (love your enemy), that we may have boldness in the day of judgment (in our lifetime), because as he is (he loves his enemies), so are we in this world.
Jude 1:15 To execute judgement on all, and to convince all (some are convinced in their lifetime some are not)....
2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and TRIBULATIONS that you endure:
(vs 5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, which you also suffer:
1 Timothy 5:24 Some men's sins are open before hand, going before to judgment; and some men they (judgments) follow after.
There are many more scriptures that confirm two judgments if you look for them; most don't look but are happy to follow the traditions of man.