Liars: Final warning of those in hell from Revelation 21:8
Definition: Merriam-Webster defines a liar as someone who tells lies. No comment here on how great that definition is..:(
I will state as I have numerous times that no names need to be given here; just a mere mention of politics whether "donkeys or elephants" should suffice. I have said to people on occasion that a liar is worse than a murderer. The Apostle Paul is my "exhibit A" in that he at least was complicit in murder but did it in ignorance ( 1 Timothy 1:13). What we can't say is that he ever lied about his intentions; everyone knew his impassioned motives in the persecution. Lying is probably the most common methodology for maintaining a lifestyle of sin; if not lying to ourselves as to what we are doing and the consequences it is lying to others for self promotion. There are scriptural instances of lying where the midwives told Pharoah that the babies he wanted to kill were born before they could get to them. ( Exodus 1:19). There are other cases where for instance the full census wasn't given of the Israelites (Levites excluded) because the evil was sensed in King David's request that Satan himself had supplanted his heart to perform. I won't quibble here on that but certainly when we find a lie as the only way to preserve a life it is different than when it is merely self promoting.
In concealing a matter; as a case study we aren't helping ourselves ( Prov. 28:13). Hiding our sins is only going to be destructive. We will in time be found out. Lying of course can attempt to distract from any sort of transgression so again it seems that it may be most dangerous and deliberately at the end of sins leading to damnation. We need to heed carefully David's reaction when Nathan said "YOU ARE THE MAN" ( 2 Samuel 12:7). Saul wasn't ever able to repent; even though he said that he sinned ( 1 Samuel 15:24). This is like Pharaoh in Exodus 9:27 or Judas in Matthew 27:4. Worldly sorrow.
Thanks David0921. I'm sorry that I did not address the Scriptures you gave earlier as my comment would have been too long.
So to Revelation 13:8: "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". I understand that the Lamb of God was to be the Sacrifice for mankind's sins, preordained/predestined even before the worlds were framed together. This verse's central point is that Jesus was brought forth as God's Lamb purely for the purpose of sacrificial death in demonstration of God's Love. Those who now under the Blood (OT & NT saints) are written in that Book of Life, otherwise referred to as the Lamb's Book of Life.
Mark 4:33,34 & Psalm 78:2: "parables". I understand that you equate the mention of 'parable' in these references as having the same meaning. That is not always the case. The parables that Jesus spoke were simple stories people could understand & relate to, but they pointed to the intended picture of the nature of God's Kingdom (which they could not comprehend).
The OT also had accounts given in a similar parable style (as in 2 Samuel 12:1-4; Isaiah 5:1-7; & others). But Psalm 78:2 you quoted (& in others), the Psalmist is not sharing just a story with a spiritual meaning, but some of the history of Israel which he hoped would stir the hearts & minds of his readers to learn from. So there is a difference in the meaning of 'parable', even as the Hebrew word, 'mashal' suggests, & Psalm 78:2 makes no suggestion to Jesus' use of such parables. To Page 2.
Difficult passages in scripture: ordered extermination of children
One of the most challenging things in the Bible is where God ordered the extermination of every man woman and child in conquest of the Promised Land. There is one fairly satisfactory reason why some were killed in this way; they were children of the union of fallen angels and women as first mentioned in Genesis 6; Nephilim which were NOT human and therefore were never to rise again; such as are indicated in Isaiah 26:14 (Rephaim in original translation). They would go to a certain part of the underworld at death.
All other examples seem to involve human children and thus is beyond our scope of full understanding. In fact; such verses make us cringe. Only putting God's Holiness at the forefront of our trust can allow us to deal with such a difficult; painful and weighty matter. Such verses which indicate the death penalty for things which we as a "civilized society" would consider cruel (such as adultery or the example brought up in another recent post in Numbers 15:32-36 on a man being stoned for picking up sticks on the Sabbath) are also examples of things which in the "Age of Grace" aren't enforced today. We could say the same for National Israel when it was a Theocracy; there may be some return in the Millennium or end of the Tribulation when God conquers enemies through His people once again; but I digress.
I would state at this juncture that there is enough scripture to indicate that the soul of a human child will NOT be sent to hell upon death- Matthew 18:10 is probably the most convincing along with the story of David's unborn child in 2 Samuel 12:23.
There is a principle that judgment comes only when a nation is fully ripe for it; such as the case of the Amorites in Genesis 15:16; Nineveh after a respite following repentance; and in Sodom where it is entirely possible there were few if any children.
I want to add something to my original note to you on this passage.
The key verse in this passage that cements the understanding that David's child was "saved" is 2 Samuel 12:23.
But now he is dead {physically dead and his body in the grave}, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him {in heaven to be with Christ when David dies physically, because that is where David's son now resides in his soul existence to await the Resurrection at the Last Day}, but he shall not return to me {in his physical body while David is still living physically}.
This fits perfectly with what the Bible teaches about the true nature of salvation and what happens to a True Believer when they die physically.
We can pray for physical healing for a loved one while they still have physical life, if it may be God's will to heal that person. And more importantly we may pray for spiritual healing, i.e. salvation for a loved one, if it might be God's will to save them, while they are still physically alive.
While it was not God's will to return David's child to physical health and the baby died. God most certainly did save David's son before he died physically.
And all of this was performed by God in accordance with His perfect plan. And the account provided for us in the Bible for our instruction.
I would be sadly remiss if I didn't emphasize how we should fear the Lord who can send both body and soul to hell ( Matt. 10:28).
This; in my opinion should elicit a response in the souls of all true believers; as we should be ever greatful for what He did for us on the cross; taking the punishment of God the Father on Himself for our benefit.
What we can do now; however is be ambassadors for the truth; and allow God to make us vessels of reconciliation ( 2 Cor. 5:19).
We cannot save anyone; but are held responsible for the death of others if we don't sound the alarm (see Ezekiel 33). Notice there that they may or may not heed the warning.
One cannot separate the love of God for fear of the Lord; and one cannot appreciate the joys of heaven without realizing the horrors of hell they have been delivered from.
We also have to understand predestination in that regard; if we disagree on certain aspects it is clear that in the end a certain number are saved and sadly it is only "few" according to Christ Himself. ( Luke 13:23 among other verses).
Another thing which needs consideration is the reports of children being in hell. Matthew 18:10; as well as Matthew 21:16 tied to Psalm 8:2; and the testimony of David in 2 Samuel 12:23 should dispel this; there are other verses as well which I may elaborate on in a future posting. Those scenes where people seem baffled or confused as to what is happening to them isn't scriptural; and we also must ponder Hebrews 9:27; and understand that judgment comes first immediately after death (although before the Great White Throne one at the end of the Millennium). The punishment is justly given in different levels depending on the crime. I need to be careful here; but will say that punishment will be no more or less than deserved; more "tolerable" for some as in Matthew 11:22.
In conclusion; God's Word should make us tremble; the subject matter should never be looked at as entertaining.
Psalm 86 (part 2). Further study in the psalm leads us to verse 9; where there is the future plan of God to have ALL nations come before God in worship and praise. This would be an allusion to the many verses indicating the Millennial rule of Christ over the remaining surviving people on the earth as well as His glorified saints ruling and reigning with Christ.
Vsrse 11 shows the importance of the fear of the Lord; and verse 12 shows how praise with all our hearts will glorify His name forever (also see Exodus 20:3; Deut. 6:5).
Verse 13 shows how David was delivered from the "lowest hell". We certainly can't claim that hell wasn't referred to in the Old Testament with numerous references in Psalms; Deuteronomy; Proverbs and other scriptures. Once again verse 14 shows the type of "violent men" that pursued David; on and off throughout his lifetime; some cases of which later on were a chastisement due to David's transgressions; such as 2 Samuel 12:9-12). Perhaps verse 16 referring to the son of thy handmaid means that David's mother was still alive at the tie of this writing; I am not sure.
The Psalm ends with David reflecting on God's mercy and longsuffering characteristics. The last verse reminds us of Psalm 23 where a table is presented before our enemies ( Psalm 23:5).
Hi Pam. As you know, those Jews that were carried away into Babylon by King Nebuchadnezzar remained there until the Persian army, under Cyrus, conquered Babylon. Cyrus was very lenient with the Jews & he gave them permission to return to their homeland. However, only a few did, and others did so over time, under Persian rule. People, like Mordecai & his cousin Hadassah (Esther), were born in captivity & only knew this Babylonian/Persian culture & the Jewish practises that were brought over by their forefathers. So, under Xerxes (Ahasuerus), the story of Mordecai & Esther is given to us. Having mentioned all that, I would think that the Jews living in Persia, who didn't want to return for various reasons (old age, loss of lifestyle/privileges, etc.), continued to perform many of the Jewish practises, as far as they were remembered. Many things would have been forgotten, abandoned, or even inter-mixed with heathen practises, but Israel still maintained their Jewish ancestry and their position before God & sought to follow His regulations.
So, when we read of Esther's call to the Jews of Shushan the palace & her handmaidens to fast ( Esther 4:15-17), I would think that both fasting & prayer were intended (if her helpers were Jews of course). The idea of fasting for the Jew at that time, was linked to deep sense of need & dependence and/or an utter helplessness in the face of calamity (present or anticipated). Also times of mourning, repentance, or a deep spiritual need could prompt fasting & prayer. Of King David we read that he prayed & fasted over his sick child ( 2 Samuel 12:16) coupled with weeping (vv 21,22). And Daniel in Daniel 9:1-19, went a similar way before the Lord with prayer, petition, fasting, in sackcloth & ashes, over the coming destruction of Jerusalem.
Fasting then was a particularly important act of one's seriousness & being cast before the Lord for help. Throughout the fast, this attitude of laying up the matters before God would have occurred.
I suppose this post has been up; I didn't know my opinion was of interest-seems like Gigi did an extensive one; and "ontological" is beyond my "pay grade" in terms of scientific vocabulary.
I tried to start responding and as always my extra tabs wiped out the page. Anyway; it is somewhat heartening that you seem to know the Lord.
Starting off here; I'm too lazy to once again get all the exact quotes. Roughly speaking I was going to say that in Psalm 139 we are said to be "fearfully and wonderfully made." In Ecclesiastes 7:29 the "uprightness" of man is mentioned but that he goes astray for "many inventions". A big point many make is about the age of accountability. I can't see how anyone is lost forever in condemnation without understanding some basic things about sin and punishment which probably begins with child rearing. David's quote about the child that died seems to indicate a certainty that he will see him someday but not until he dies ( 2 Samuel 12:23).
Sin; death and decay (as brought up through the concept of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics) really can't be explained other than it happens; much like concepts like gravity. I would say simply the spirit of a man lives foreever; whether in restored (saved) condition or lost. Man would have lived forever in an "innocent" state if he hadn't sinned. This would not have enabled him to rule and reign with Christ as we can now; nor fulfilled His plans for free agents in the spirit realm to choose to rebel or remain with Him in their "proper estate". ( Jude 1:6). Whether we understand sin as we get older we see more and more of the effects. God has designed this world to unwind; and eventually be destroyed and replaced with a new heaven and earth. Things in the sovereignty of God ( Deut. 29:29) remain there at least this side of eternity. Proverbs 25:2 states that kings have some things revealed which may suggest as "kings and priests" in Him some understanding comes. We are not God who knows all.
Predestination part 3. (eternal fate heaven or hell).
When we are "conformed to the image of His Son" ( Romans 8:29) we see the concept of predestination and "first fruits" there; which would foreshadow a Rapture/Resurrection event. Another way to put it is that those who read the Beatitudes on a surface level or human level of understanding see a humanitarian sort of principle of for instance; how to be "peacemakers"; feed the poor; etc. ANYONE; even an atheist can do such things but it is only the Holiness of God through the Spirit after true conversion that gives us the reality of that in our souls. No amount of penance; self sacrifice or other actions can give us more of a desire for God's Holiness if it doesn't already exist in someone's soul! Nonetheless "faith without works is dead." ( James 2:17). Poducing fruit is essential for a true believer as we see with the Parable of the Sower and the seed.
There are also various levels of suffering in hell as well as rewards in heaven. We see this in Matthew 11:20-24 with several cities in mind. Also we see this in Matthew 13:8 as to the 30 fold and 100 fold producers (also see 1 Cor. 15:41).
I am fairly dogmatic as to those before the age of accountability not being punished for their sin NATURE since they haven't acted out the sin knowing that they are rebels against God. When we look at Romans 7:9-11; we understand this concept; and when we see the story of David and his son who died ( 2 Samuel 12:23) we see evidence of this amongst other places ( Psalm 8:2 for example).
Another way of looking at is is the verse "we will not have this man to rule over us." ( Luke 19:14). This is what all say who go against the Man who God has given all authority to in heaven and earth ( Matt. 28:18). If we disbelieve the living Word ( Heb. 4:12 etal) then we reject His authority and preservation as well as 2 Timothy 3:16 which states all scripture is breathed of God..
Principle 5 What about the infants; children under "age of accountability" and mentally challenged individuals?
There are verses related to David's son that died with Bathsheeba that would seem to indicate that children who die before a certain age we can be confident to meet eventually in heaven. ( 2 Samuel 12:14). Those who are mentally challenged to the point where they don't consciously sin also could be arguably in that camp. I know someone who has attended concerts at our local church that I have run into twice in a month or two that is mentally challenged. He tends to obsessively listen to Christian music and gyrate uncontrollably. This is a good reminder to all of us that we don't always see what's going on in the heart of some people. It would be illogical to disbelieve in such individuals having universal salvation upon an early death and somehow expect that they would be Raptured. Whether making it to heaven AFTER death warrants being Raptured is a bit trickier; however. There are verses about gathering the weaning child in Joel 2:16 certainly invoke a theme like the Rapture in the Holy Convocation. We certainly should of course teach the scriptures faithfully to help rear our kids in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
In light of the above statement; I would say that unlike the hardened hearts of many adults; children still have potential for a large spiritual awakening in terms of numerical response to the Word. That could be something that would signify His imminent return; perhaps with abortions being significantly reduced we will indeed see if Satan has been terminating an army already in heaven of faithful martyrs and if a generation of believers will come into fruition when the children are allowed to live who otherwise would have been slain. This is just a theory; but God will receive praise ( Psalm 8:2).
Principle Six: ANY new believer is qualified for the Rapture. ( Luke 14:24-35). See my next post...
There are some who think that David was afflicted with some type of venereal disease due to his many relations; and the descriptions of his sufferings in such passages. Others say it could be a bone affliction of old age such as osteoporosis. When he was dying he had care for what some would say are hypothermia. We see similar language of David's ailments in Psalm 32.
Apparently; as verses 8 and 10 indicate; God used his enemies to humble him; which were promised due to him in 2 Samuel 12:9 and following after his downfall with Bathsheeba and causing Uriah to die. These would taunt him for the rest of his days; and also would delay the Temple of the Lord to be built because David's transgressions and whatever was meant by his being a "man of war" ( 1 Chron. 28:3). That could be a veiled reference to causing death to Uriah in war; as well as battles that resulted from enemies that came after him due to his own sin.
God did chasten David as he states in verse 1. David surely was a saint of God; as we see from Hebrews 11:32. His broken and contrite spirit as seen in Psalm 51 allowed him to repent as he did many times; admitting his sin. Hopefully; since all scripture is for instruction ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17) we will avoid certain costly sins in our lives as things are written for examples to us in how to live.
There are verses such as "absent from the body is present with the Lord" ( 2 Cor. 5:8); and others where Jesus says He isn't the God of the dead but the living ( Mark 12:27). There is mention of souls under the altar in Revelation ( Rev. 6:9-11) and the transfiguration; as well as David stating that he would not see his dead son come to him but he would go to him ( 2 Samuel 12:23). When the Rapture comes; then there will be a reuniting of souls with bodies when the dead saints are raised; then we who are alive are changed into Resurrection bodies without death ( 1 Cor. 15:51-52). The final Great White Throne judgment is for those who are in hades or what is now called hell; who are judged according to their works then thrown in the lake of fire. From my undestanding of eschatology; there could very well be those who physically survive the Millenium period and ARE written in the Book of Life.
There is more that can be said; but I felt that the focus should be on how NOW we can recognize through Christ and the new man in us what will exist someday in eternity by the power of the Holy Spirit. If we are saved; then we are new creatures; and although we see darkly as through a glass; we get a taste of things to come ( 1 Cor. 13:12). We are already spiritually "seated in heavenly places" ( Eph. 2:1-9). We become hearers of His voice; and start to sense His presence; and have the "mind of Christ" ( 1 Cor. 2:16). He has given us good works to do which no doubt will continue in heaven in some form as we are all uniquely created.
Scripture simply doesn't allow for an nihilism in any way; verses differentiate between the word "qeber" for the body in the grave and "sheol" which is the state of the soul in the O.T. after death. Now; we can go immediately into God's presence; so Satan no longer has power over our souls to keep them under the earth in the paradise part of sheol anymore HEBREWS 2:14-15! Perfect love casts out fear ( 1 John 4:18).
Yes, I believe we will see our loved ones in Heaven, and yes, "In Heaven"
I like the scripture free has given and king David seems to suggest the same.
"But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me".
2 Samuel 12:23.
Here's a few of many scriptures that suggests we will be in Heaven.
Revelation 4:1-2. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2) And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Revelation 4:4.
Revelation 4:10.
Revelation 5:1-3. Notice verse 3- "And no man in heaven", nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." Not only are there people in Heaven and on earth here, but this is also before the tribulation!!
Revelation 5:13-14. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
There is several different views on whether we will be in heaven or not.
I'm not interested in going into that debate besides your question was "Will we see our loved ones in Heaven' and answering your question is most important.
King David and Bathsheba's First Baby - 2 years ago
2 SAMUEL 11:
26 And when the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband.
27 And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done DISPLEASED THE LORD.
2 SAMUEL 12:
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
15 And NATHAN departed to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
Comment: this may be one time when a child died because ones actions. This is just something to consider. It bears no relevance to other comments. Mishael
As a mother who lost her 19 year old son 15 years ago, I cannot tell you that the pain goes away. I can tell you that God continues to give me grace daily to go on with a piece of my heart in heaven. On the night of my son's passing a pastor friend read to us the account of king David's sons death. We like king David had been by our son's bedside for 10 days , hardly leaving the hospital. But in 2 Samuel 12:22-23 David says "'And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
These verses have since been a blessing to me. I have the assurance that my son is with my Lord and Savior and when I go he will be there waiting for me. I pray that God will grant you comfort and peace in the loss of your daughter. Also that God will give you some Godly people to help you through your grief. Look to grief support groups or just a good bible believing church that you can fellowship with. Our church family was with us throughout our son's hospital stay and his passing. We're so thankful for their help in our time of need.
I have heard it taught that his Job kids doubled as well. Apparently they were saved. you don't loose a love one if He/She is going to Heaven and so are you. as King David said about his baby " Someday I will go to Him! 2 Samuel 12:23.
Those seven is still his kids along with the seven mentioned in Job 42:13.
Giving him 14 in total, and he's probably with all 14 now.
King David is accredited as author of Psalms 23, here is some of his documented historical references that may help understand deeper: 1 Samuel 19:1,9,10,11,15,18,20-24, 2 Samuel 12:7-14, 2 Samuel 15:14,
Did you notice? David feared GOD & would not lay his hand on GOD's anointted & felt remorseful for cutting Saul's garment.
1 Samuel 24:4,5,6 , 1 Samuel 24:10,
Saul also ripped Samuel's garment 1 Samuel 15:27 however 1 Samuel 15:28-29. Even after remorseful repentance 1 Samuel 15:29,30,35
Do think the significance of the clothing was a factor? 1 Samuel 2:19, His mother's sacrifice 1 Samuel 1:28
Saul pursued David to kill him: 1 Samuel 19:1,10,11,15,
& Saul ordered the prophets of GOD killed, possibly unarmed, their families, livestock & nursing babies included.; 1 Samuel 22:17,18,19 Same Saul that left the enemy King & livestock alive in disobedience to GOD's orders. 1 Samuel 15:1,2,3,8,9,
Psalms 105:15
David's mercy 2 Samuel 9:3-7,
David's sin & judgement: 2 Samuel 12:7,9,11,12,14,18, 2 Samuel 13:1,6,7,8,12,13,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,28,29,30,31,32, after years 2 Samuel 14:25,30,31,32, 2 Samuel 15:6,10,12,13,14,16,23,30,31, 2 Samuel 16:3,5,6,7,8,11,13,22, 2 Samuel 17:21,23,29, 2 Samuel 18:5,7,9,10,12,14,15,17,20,27,32,33, 2 Samuel 19:1-4, "the sword did not depart from his house" etc. There were more scriptures about his consequences _.
Queen Vashti, consequence Ester 1:19, Ester 2:4
Saul then 1 Samuel 28:3,7,18,19
David has Psalms of remorseful repentance, gives glory to GOD ALMIGHTY, shows mercy & humility at times. With Saul he shows remorse but didn't read much of repentance, etc.
Hi Chris The challenge daily is either walking by the senses the flesh or by the spirit it is written which constant renewed mind, we either look to the world or look to the word. I believe we agree God Bless
Thank you for your thoughts & suggestions (as I also read your comment to Dianne). This would indeed become a much protracted discussion if pursued. The only comment I offer for my understanding of Romans chapter 7, is the apostle's clear use of the personal pronoun & present/past tenses, as appropriate.
I realize that there are other views on this passage, & even in my attempt to engage with those views for the purposes of learning a different perspective to mine, my reading & understanding of what Paul is expressing seems to be the most natural & obvious. Blessings to you.
Hi Chris, as I wrote to Dianne I say to you also. There are two predominant prevailing views on Romans 7, and one should examine them carefully before aligning with the one or the other. There is plenty of information on the web. If you have made your informed choice then that is the end to it, but I would advise you spend some time on these two views before you claim the wrong one because these views are directly opposed to one another, just like the Spirit and the flesh are, and to claim the wrong view is to champion both law and flesh instead of the Spirit.
Drake Last but not least Psalm 103:1-14 especially look at 10-12, 12 as far as the east is from the west so far hath he removed our transgressions from us, north and south are poles if you go south you'll eventually go north and vise versa east and west never meet if you go west your always going west and vise versa, really something to think about. God Bless
Drake Some things to think about your heart for God is evident, 1 John 3:20+21 also Romans 8:28-39 thats in the context of walking by the spirit i.e. Gods word. Nobody is worthy of this, we have been made the righteousness of God in Christ, all sins are paid in full God looks at us as his family. Look at the logic an earthly father when a mistake is made instructs and teaches so that the error gets corrected. Our heavenly Father God gave us everything through Jesus Christ who is our greatest example. In 2 Timothy3:16+17 is the purpose of Gods word verse 17 That the man of God may be perfect throughly furnished unto all good works. The word throughly is not in error its there because we have been made clean by the accomplished work of Jesus Christ. i never think about what I was I endeavor to think about 2 Corinthians 5: 17-21. This is Gods Heart for His Kids us. God Bless
Hello Drake. The anguish you feel is mirrored in so many of us. The Apostle Paul suffered under the same spiritual cloud when he looked at the conflict in himself, between sin & his spirit. Romans 7:14-23 shows that conflict. But after his agonizing over it, he could find that victory lay not within him, but in the Person of Jesus Christ.
Even the Psalmist in Psalm 73:21-26, despaired of his unworthiness before God (was seen as a beast before Him & with a body & heart that failed God in life & in death). Yet, even he could raise himself up & proclaim that inspite of this, God was still his Strength, that His Presence hadn't left him & he would be guided in this life & into the next.
All God ever expects of His children is to humble themselves before Him, acknowledging that there "dwelleth no good thing" as far as our flesh is concerned. When we bring our sins & shortcomings before Him & our desire is not to the sin but only to the Saviour, He sees the heart that is inclined towards Him: a heart of faith, of hope, of expectation in our final redemption from this Earth. "He knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust", but He also knows where the blood of His Son has been applied, and that not one of His sheep will be lost or plucked from His Hand.
We can confidently rest on such Scriptures, but if sin overtakes us, we look up & reach out for our Father & receive assurance of forgiveness & restoration. You've shared a mighty testimony declaring your love for the Lord; this cannot come from a heart succumbed to a sinful life, but of one engaged in the earthly battle in the spiritual realm, trusting the Lord for that extra measure of faith & strength. "This is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." Faith in Christ alone who has gotten us the victory through His Cross. Stay strong brother - keep looking up in faith & looking down into His Word for you.
My greatest fear when i look at my own sin, is that we belong to a just God. He cannot deny Himself. There will defiantly be consequences for our choices in life. My hope and my prayer is, when I finally turn my back to this darkness in my life, God will allow His face to shine on me once again. I love you Lord, I love You so much, I repent inside myself.
From everlasting to everlasting, You are Lord. Kind, and gracious, full of love, and compassion with a desire to see us succeed. Praise Your holy name,
My reply was bringing attention that verse 23 ( But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.) "That verse is a commonly used verse where we see a child going to heaven, having not reaching the age of accountability yet". And yes it is used that way.
In verse 23 King David is answering his servant when the child was sick he fast and wept but when the child died he ate bread "no more mourning" If he was concerned about the child not living long enough to be circumcised that would have brought on more mourning and weeping as he did for Absalom after his death.
2 Samuel 12:21-22. Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
Chapter 11:27 we see King David took Bathsheba as his wife and she bore him a child, Chapter 12:14-16 you see the Lord has struck the child with sickness and King David went and lay upon the earth and fasted.
On the seventh day the child died, This don't say that the child was 7 days old, Its how long David fasted.
Scripture don't give us the age of the child. We don't know how much time past between VS 11:27 the child birth, and vs 12:18 when it died.
Besides none of that matters. Circumcision was never for salvation, the book of Galatians is clear on that.
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. and Romans. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Definition: Merriam-Webster defines a liar as someone who tells lies. No comment here on how great that definition is..:(
I will state as I have numerous times that no names need to be given here; just a mere mention of politics whether "donkeys or elephants" should suffice. I have said to people on occasion that a liar is worse than a murderer. The Apostle Paul is my "exhibit A" in that he at least was complicit in murder but did it in ignorance ( 1 Timothy 1:13). What we can't say is that he ever lied about his intentions; everyone knew his impassioned motives in the persecution. Lying is probably the most common methodology for maintaining a lifestyle of sin; if not lying to ourselves as to what we are doing and the consequences it is lying to others for self promotion. There are scriptural instances of lying where the midwives told Pharoah that the babies he wanted to kill were born before they could get to them. ( Exodus 1:19). There are other cases where for instance the full census wasn't given of the Israelites (Levites excluded) because the evil was sensed in King David's request that Satan himself had supplanted his heart to perform. I won't quibble here on that but certainly when we find a lie as the only way to preserve a life it is different than when it is merely self promoting.
In concealing a matter; as a case study we aren't helping ourselves ( Prov. 28:13). Hiding our sins is only going to be destructive. We will in time be found out. Lying of course can attempt to distract from any sort of transgression so again it seems that it may be most dangerous and deliberately at the end of sins leading to damnation. We need to heed carefully David's reaction when Nathan said "YOU ARE THE MAN" ( 2 Samuel 12:7). Saul wasn't ever able to repent; even though he said that he sinned ( 1 Samuel 15:24). This is like Pharaoh in Exodus 9:27 or Judas in Matthew 27:4. Worldly sorrow.
Thanks David0921. I'm sorry that I did not address the Scriptures you gave earlier as my comment would have been too long.
So to Revelation 13:8: "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". I understand that the Lamb of God was to be the Sacrifice for mankind's sins, preordained/predestined even before the worlds were framed together. This verse's central point is that Jesus was brought forth as God's Lamb purely for the purpose of sacrificial death in demonstration of God's Love. Those who now under the Blood (OT & NT saints) are written in that Book of Life, otherwise referred to as the Lamb's Book of Life.
Mark 4:33,34 & Psalm 78:2: "parables". I understand that you equate the mention of 'parable' in these references as having the same meaning. That is not always the case. The parables that Jesus spoke were simple stories people could understand & relate to, but they pointed to the intended picture of the nature of God's Kingdom (which they could not comprehend).
The OT also had accounts given in a similar parable style (as in 2 Samuel 12:1-4; Isaiah 5:1-7; & others). But Psalm 78:2 you quoted (& in others), the Psalmist is not sharing just a story with a spiritual meaning, but some of the history of Israel which he hoped would stir the hearts & minds of his readers to learn from. So there is a difference in the meaning of 'parable', even as the Hebrew word, 'mashal' suggests, & Psalm 78:2 makes no suggestion to Jesus' use of such parables. To Page 2.
One of the most challenging things in the Bible is where God ordered the extermination of every man woman and child in conquest of the Promised Land. There is one fairly satisfactory reason why some were killed in this way; they were children of the union of fallen angels and women as first mentioned in Genesis 6; Nephilim which were NOT human and therefore were never to rise again; such as are indicated in Isaiah 26:14 (Rephaim in original translation). They would go to a certain part of the underworld at death.
All other examples seem to involve human children and thus is beyond our scope of full understanding. In fact; such verses make us cringe. Only putting God's Holiness at the forefront of our trust can allow us to deal with such a difficult; painful and weighty matter. Such verses which indicate the death penalty for things which we as a "civilized society" would consider cruel (such as adultery or the example brought up in another recent post in Numbers 15:32-36 on a man being stoned for picking up sticks on the Sabbath) are also examples of things which in the "Age of Grace" aren't enforced today. We could say the same for National Israel when it was a Theocracy; there may be some return in the Millennium or end of the Tribulation when God conquers enemies through His people once again; but I digress.
I would state at this juncture that there is enough scripture to indicate that the soul of a human child will NOT be sent to hell upon death- Matthew 18:10 is probably the most convincing along with the story of David's unborn child in 2 Samuel 12:23.
There is a principle that judgment comes only when a nation is fully ripe for it; such as the case of the Amorites in Genesis 15:16; Nineveh after a respite following repentance; and in Sodom where it is entirely possible there were few if any children.
I will continue this discussion in further posts.
I want to add something to my original note to you on this passage.
The key verse in this passage that cements the understanding that David's child was "saved" is 2 Samuel 12:23.
But now he is dead {physically dead and his body in the grave}, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him {in heaven to be with Christ when David dies physically, because that is where David's son now resides in his soul existence to await the Resurrection at the Last Day}, but he shall not return to me {in his physical body while David is still living physically}.
This fits perfectly with what the Bible teaches about the true nature of salvation and what happens to a True Believer when they die physically.
We can pray for physical healing for a loved one while they still have physical life, if it may be God's will to heal that person. And more importantly we may pray for spiritual healing, i.e. salvation for a loved one, if it might be God's will to save them, while they are still physically alive.
While it was not God's will to return David's child to physical health and the baby died. God most certainly did save David's son before he died physically.
And all of this was performed by God in accordance with His perfect plan. And the account provided for us in the Bible for our instruction.
I would be sadly remiss if I didn't emphasize how we should fear the Lord who can send both body and soul to hell ( Matt. 10:28).
This; in my opinion should elicit a response in the souls of all true believers; as we should be ever greatful for what He did for us on the cross; taking the punishment of God the Father on Himself for our benefit.
What we can do now; however is be ambassadors for the truth; and allow God to make us vessels of reconciliation ( 2 Cor. 5:19).
We cannot save anyone; but are held responsible for the death of others if we don't sound the alarm (see Ezekiel 33). Notice there that they may or may not heed the warning.
One cannot separate the love of God for fear of the Lord; and one cannot appreciate the joys of heaven without realizing the horrors of hell they have been delivered from.
We also have to understand predestination in that regard; if we disagree on certain aspects it is clear that in the end a certain number are saved and sadly it is only "few" according to Christ Himself. ( Luke 13:23 among other verses).
Another thing which needs consideration is the reports of children being in hell. Matthew 18:10; as well as Matthew 21:16 tied to Psalm 8:2; and the testimony of David in 2 Samuel 12:23 should dispel this; there are other verses as well which I may elaborate on in a future posting. Those scenes where people seem baffled or confused as to what is happening to them isn't scriptural; and we also must ponder Hebrews 9:27; and understand that judgment comes first immediately after death (although before the Great White Throne one at the end of the Millennium). The punishment is justly given in different levels depending on the crime. I need to be careful here; but will say that punishment will be no more or less than deserved; more "tolerable" for some as in Matthew 11:22.
In conclusion; God's Word should make us tremble; the subject matter should never be looked at as entertaining.
Vsrse 11 shows the importance of the fear of the Lord; and verse 12 shows how praise with all our hearts will glorify His name forever (also see Exodus 20:3; Deut. 6:5).
Verse 13 shows how David was delivered from the "lowest hell". We certainly can't claim that hell wasn't referred to in the Old Testament with numerous references in Psalms; Deuteronomy; Proverbs and other scriptures. Once again verse 14 shows the type of "violent men" that pursued David; on and off throughout his lifetime; some cases of which later on were a chastisement due to David's transgressions; such as 2 Samuel 12:9-12). Perhaps verse 16 referring to the son of thy handmaid means that David's mother was still alive at the tie of this writing; I am not sure.
The Psalm ends with David reflecting on God's mercy and longsuffering characteristics. The last verse reminds us of Psalm 23 where a table is presented before our enemies ( Psalm 23:5).
So, when we read of Esther's call to the Jews of Shushan the palace & her handmaidens to fast ( Esther 4:15-17), I would think that both fasting & prayer were intended (if her helpers were Jews of course). The idea of fasting for the Jew at that time, was linked to deep sense of need & dependence and/or an utter helplessness in the face of calamity (present or anticipated). Also times of mourning, repentance, or a deep spiritual need could prompt fasting & prayer. Of King David we read that he prayed & fasted over his sick child ( 2 Samuel 12:16) coupled with weeping (vv 21,22). And Daniel in Daniel 9:1-19, went a similar way before the Lord with prayer, petition, fasting, in sackcloth & ashes, over the coming destruction of Jerusalem.
Fasting then was a particularly important act of one's seriousness & being cast before the Lord for help. Throughout the fast, this attitude of laying up the matters before God would have occurred.
I tried to start responding and as always my extra tabs wiped out the page. Anyway; it is somewhat heartening that you seem to know the Lord.
Starting off here; I'm too lazy to once again get all the exact quotes. Roughly speaking I was going to say that in Psalm 139 we are said to be "fearfully and wonderfully made." In Ecclesiastes 7:29 the "uprightness" of man is mentioned but that he goes astray for "many inventions". A big point many make is about the age of accountability. I can't see how anyone is lost forever in condemnation without understanding some basic things about sin and punishment which probably begins with child rearing. David's quote about the child that died seems to indicate a certainty that he will see him someday but not until he dies ( 2 Samuel 12:23).
Sin; death and decay (as brought up through the concept of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics) really can't be explained other than it happens; much like concepts like gravity. I would say simply the spirit of a man lives foreever; whether in restored (saved) condition or lost. Man would have lived forever in an "innocent" state if he hadn't sinned. This would not have enabled him to rule and reign with Christ as we can now; nor fulfilled His plans for free agents in the spirit realm to choose to rebel or remain with Him in their "proper estate". ( Jude 1:6). Whether we understand sin as we get older we see more and more of the effects. God has designed this world to unwind; and eventually be destroyed and replaced with a new heaven and earth. Things in the sovereignty of God ( Deut. 29:29) remain there at least this side of eternity. Proverbs 25:2 states that kings have some things revealed which may suggest as "kings and priests" in Him some understanding comes. We are not God who knows all.
When we are "conformed to the image of His Son" ( Romans 8:29) we see the concept of predestination and "first fruits" there; which would foreshadow a Rapture/Resurrection event. Another way to put it is that those who read the Beatitudes on a surface level or human level of understanding see a humanitarian sort of principle of for instance; how to be "peacemakers"; feed the poor; etc. ANYONE; even an atheist can do such things but it is only the Holiness of God through the Spirit after true conversion that gives us the reality of that in our souls. No amount of penance; self sacrifice or other actions can give us more of a desire for God's Holiness if it doesn't already exist in someone's soul! Nonetheless "faith without works is dead." ( James 2:17). Poducing fruit is essential for a true believer as we see with the Parable of the Sower and the seed.
There are also various levels of suffering in hell as well as rewards in heaven. We see this in Matthew 11:20-24 with several cities in mind. Also we see this in Matthew 13:8 as to the 30 fold and 100 fold producers (also see 1 Cor. 15:41).
I am fairly dogmatic as to those before the age of accountability not being punished for their sin NATURE since they haven't acted out the sin knowing that they are rebels against God. When we look at Romans 7:9-11; we understand this concept; and when we see the story of David and his son who died ( 2 Samuel 12:23) we see evidence of this amongst other places ( Psalm 8:2 for example).
Another way of looking at is is the verse "we will not have this man to rule over us." ( Luke 19:14). This is what all say who go against the Man who God has given all authority to in heaven and earth ( Matt. 28:18). If we disbelieve the living Word ( Heb. 4:12 etal) then we reject His authority and preservation as well as 2 Timothy 3:16 which states all scripture is breathed of God..
Or; Luke 10:16 rejecting you is rejecting me.
There are verses related to David's son that died with Bathsheeba that would seem to indicate that children who die before a certain age we can be confident to meet eventually in heaven. ( 2 Samuel 12:14). Those who are mentally challenged to the point where they don't consciously sin also could be arguably in that camp. I know someone who has attended concerts at our local church that I have run into twice in a month or two that is mentally challenged. He tends to obsessively listen to Christian music and gyrate uncontrollably. This is a good reminder to all of us that we don't always see what's going on in the heart of some people. It would be illogical to disbelieve in such individuals having universal salvation upon an early death and somehow expect that they would be Raptured. Whether making it to heaven AFTER death warrants being Raptured is a bit trickier; however. There are verses about gathering the weaning child in Joel 2:16 certainly invoke a theme like the Rapture in the Holy Convocation. We certainly should of course teach the scriptures faithfully to help rear our kids in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
In light of the above statement; I would say that unlike the hardened hearts of many adults; children still have potential for a large spiritual awakening in terms of numerical response to the Word. That could be something that would signify His imminent return; perhaps with abortions being significantly reduced we will indeed see if Satan has been terminating an army already in heaven of faithful martyrs and if a generation of believers will come into fruition when the children are allowed to live who otherwise would have been slain. This is just a theory; but God will receive praise ( Psalm 8:2).
Principle Six: ANY new believer is qualified for the Rapture. ( Luke 14:24-35). See my next post...
Apparently; as verses 8 and 10 indicate; God used his enemies to humble him; which were promised due to him in 2 Samuel 12:9 and following after his downfall with Bathsheeba and causing Uriah to die. These would taunt him for the rest of his days; and also would delay the Temple of the Lord to be built because David's transgressions and whatever was meant by his being a "man of war" ( 1 Chron. 28:3). That could be a veiled reference to causing death to Uriah in war; as well as battles that resulted from enemies that came after him due to his own sin.
God did chasten David as he states in verse 1. David surely was a saint of God; as we see from Hebrews 11:32. His broken and contrite spirit as seen in Psalm 51 allowed him to repent as he did many times; admitting his sin. Hopefully; since all scripture is for instruction ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17) we will avoid certain costly sins in our lives as things are written for examples to us in how to live.
There is more that can be said; but I felt that the focus should be on how NOW we can recognize through Christ and the new man in us what will exist someday in eternity by the power of the Holy Spirit. If we are saved; then we are new creatures; and although we see darkly as through a glass; we get a taste of things to come ( 1 Cor. 13:12). We are already spiritually "seated in heavenly places" ( Eph. 2:1-9). We become hearers of His voice; and start to sense His presence; and have the "mind of Christ" ( 1 Cor. 2:16). He has given us good works to do which no doubt will continue in heaven in some form as we are all uniquely created.
Scripture simply doesn't allow for an nihilism in any way; verses differentiate between the word "qeber" for the body in the grave and "sheol" which is the state of the soul in the O.T. after death. Now; we can go immediately into God's presence; so Satan no longer has power over our souls to keep them under the earth in the paradise part of sheol anymore HEBREWS 2:14-15! Perfect love casts out fear ( 1 John 4:18).
Yes I believe the little children and some mentally challenged people will go to heaven.
Here's why, There seems to be an age of accountability.
Deuteronomy 1:39. Here Joshua reminds Israel of the decree given by God in Numbers 14:21-33. Here the age of accountability is 20 years old.
James 4:17. I don't see a one year old knowing he's in need of a savior.
Romans 14:12. This is something a child can't do.
King David seems to think at least babies go to heaven in 2 Samuel 12:19-23.
Today this may have more to do with maturity which differs from one kid to another.
Perhaps at an early age one may know good from evil but lack full knowledge and understanding of the gospel, and need of a savior. I hope this helps.
God bless.
Yes, I believe we will see our loved ones in Heaven, and yes, "In Heaven"
I like the scripture free has given and king David seems to suggest the same.
"But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me".
2 Samuel 12:23.
Here's a few of many scriptures that suggests we will be in Heaven.
Revelation 4:1-2. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2) And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Revelation 4:4.
Revelation 4:10.
Revelation 5:1-3. Notice verse 3- "And no man in heaven", nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." Not only are there people in Heaven and on earth here, but this is also before the tribulation!!
Revelation 5:13-14. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
There is several different views on whether we will be in heaven or not.
I'm not interested in going into that debate besides your question was "Will we see our loved ones in Heaven' and answering your question is most important.
God bless.
26 And when the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband.
27 And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done DISPLEASED THE LORD.
2 SAMUEL 12:
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
15 And NATHAN departed to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
Comment: this may be one time when a child died because ones actions. This is just something to consider. It bears no relevance to other comments. Mishael
I read your bit on God does not take babies and for the most part I believe he doesn't but there are exceptions concerning this.
Please consider 2 Samuel 12:13-23.
As a mother who lost her 19 year old son 15 years ago, I cannot tell you that the pain goes away. I can tell you that God continues to give me grace daily to go on with a piece of my heart in heaven. On the night of my son's passing a pastor friend read to us the account of king David's sons death. We like king David had been by our son's bedside for 10 days , hardly leaving the hospital. But in 2 Samuel 12:22-23 David says "'And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
These verses have since been a blessing to me. I have the assurance that my son is with my Lord and Savior and when I go he will be there waiting for me. I pray that God will grant you comfort and peace in the loss of your daughter. Also that God will give you some Godly people to help you through your grief. Look to grief support groups or just a good bible believing church that you can fellowship with. Our church family was with us throughout our son's hospital stay and his passing. We're so thankful for their help in our time of need.
May God bless you,
Jan
I have heard it taught that his Job kids doubled as well. Apparently they were saved. you don't loose a love one if He/She is going to Heaven and so are you. as King David said about his baby " Someday I will go to Him! 2 Samuel 12:23.
Those seven is still his kids along with the seven mentioned in Job 42:13.
Giving him 14 in total, and he's probably with all 14 now.
God bless.
1 Samuel 24:4,5,6 , 1 Samuel 24:10,
Saul also ripped Samuel's garment 1 Samuel 15:27 however 1 Samuel 15:28-29. Even after remorseful repentance 1 Samuel 15:29,30,35
Do think the significance of the clothing was a factor? 1 Samuel 2:19, His mother's sacrifice 1 Samuel 1:28
Saul pursued David to kill him: 1 Samuel 19:1,10,11,15,
& Saul ordered the prophets of GOD killed, possibly unarmed, their families, livestock & nursing babies included.; 1 Samuel 22:17,18,19 Same Saul that left the enemy King & livestock alive in disobedience to GOD's orders. 1 Samuel 15:1,2,3,8,9,
Psalms 105:15
David's mercy 2 Samuel 9:3-7,
David's sin & judgement: 2 Samuel 12:7,9,11,12,14,18, 2 Samuel 13:1,6,7,8,12,13,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,28,29,30,31,32, after years 2 Samuel 14:25,30,31,32, 2 Samuel 15:6,10,12,13,14,16,23,30,31, 2 Samuel 16:3,5,6,7,8,11,13,22, 2 Samuel 17:21,23,29, 2 Samuel 18:5,7,9,10,12,14,15,17,20,27,32,33, 2 Samuel 19:1-4, "the sword did not depart from his house" etc. There were more scriptures about his consequences _.
Queen Vashti, consequence Ester 1:19, Ester 2:4
Saul then 1 Samuel 28:3,7,18,19
David has Psalms of remorseful repentance, gives glory to GOD ALMIGHTY, shows mercy & humility at times. With Saul he shows remorse but didn't read much of repentance, etc.
However the Bible says: 1 Colossians 1:20,
Job 12:16
Hopefully these are helpful in your study.
I realize that there are other views on this passage, & even in my attempt to engage with those views for the purposes of learning a different perspective to mine, my reading & understanding of what Paul is expressing seems to be the most natural & obvious. Blessings to you.
Even the Psalmist in Psalm 73:21-26, despaired of his unworthiness before God (was seen as a beast before Him & with a body & heart that failed God in life & in death). Yet, even he could raise himself up & proclaim that inspite of this, God was still his Strength, that His Presence hadn't left him & he would be guided in this life & into the next.
All God ever expects of His children is to humble themselves before Him, acknowledging that there "dwelleth no good thing" as far as our flesh is concerned. When we bring our sins & shortcomings before Him & our desire is not to the sin but only to the Saviour, He sees the heart that is inclined towards Him: a heart of faith, of hope, of expectation in our final redemption from this Earth. "He knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust", but He also knows where the blood of His Son has been applied, and that not one of His sheep will be lost or plucked from His Hand.
We can confidently rest on such Scriptures, but if sin overtakes us, we look up & reach out for our Father & receive assurance of forgiveness & restoration. You've shared a mighty testimony declaring your love for the Lord; this cannot come from a heart succumbed to a sinful life, but of one engaged in the earthly battle in the spiritual realm, trusting the Lord for that extra measure of faith & strength. "This is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." Faith in Christ alone who has gotten us the victory through His Cross. Stay strong brother - keep looking up in faith & looking down into His Word for you.
From everlasting to everlasting, You are Lord. Kind, and gracious, full of love, and compassion with a desire to see us succeed. Praise Your holy name,
My reply was bringing attention that verse 23 ( But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.) "That verse is a commonly used verse where we see a child going to heaven, having not reaching the age of accountability yet". And yes it is used that way.
In verse 23 King David is answering his servant when the child was sick he fast and wept but when the child died he ate bread "no more mourning" If he was concerned about the child not living long enough to be circumcised that would have brought on more mourning and weeping as he did for Absalom after his death.
2 Samuel 12:21-22. Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
Chapter 11:27 we see King David took Bathsheba as his wife and she bore him a child, Chapter 12:14-16 you see the Lord has struck the child with sickness and King David went and lay upon the earth and fasted.
On the seventh day the child died, This don't say that the child was 7 days old, Its how long David fasted.
Scripture don't give us the age of the child. We don't know how much time past between VS 11:27 the child birth, and vs 12:18 when it died.
Besides none of that matters. Circumcision was never for salvation, the book of Galatians is clear on that.
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. and Romans. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.