Verses 10-12 state: And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? 11Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff. 12Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
This passage illustrates the reaction of Joshua after they were routed in battle. Joshua lamely states that it would have been better to not have entered where they were than to be routed by the Amorites. He ignores promises 400 years prior about the fullness of the iniquity of the Amorites; but is totally blind to the REASON for the event; which boiled down to one person coveting gold and other things which were cursed objects somehow tied into the demonic realm that were; as the rest of the populus to be devoted unto destruction. Joshua 6:18 warns about such behavior; and Achan was the individual responsible and was summarily stoned afterwards; followed by victory on the battlefield. They should have learned from what happened with Korah's rebellion in Numbers 16:32 when they were swallowed up by the earth after trying to usurp the role of Priesthood that Moses had. We see in both these passages that unless the sin was dealt with the entire people would be destroyed.
In today's New Testament church we see Ananias and Sapphira in the same sort of swift judgment in Acts 5. Normally; of course our first priority has to be our own sin but we have to guard not only our own hearts but watch out for the "enemy in the camp" which today often involves "damnable heresies" ( 2 Peter 2:1); also see 1 Timothy 4:1 on last days false teaching.
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"
1 Corinthians 1:23-24
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Going from the last discussion on Cathechisms; doctrine is at the core and essense of that topic. All commitments which we adhere to especially related to church membership in regard to doctrine in the Cathechism should be based on scriptural truth.
Clearly in today's churches we see many variations of interpretation and many are spurious. I am not here primarily to bash any particular denomination; but asking us to be Bereans in studying the Word to be approved before men and God ( Acts 17:11). It is noteable that the Bereans were said to be more noble than the Thessalonians especially since they came to quick understanding of deep prophetic texts. I am not aware that they were even an organized church; per se; maybe someone can shed light on that. In any event NO church hierarchy should dissuade careful study of scripture before any commitment is made; or any statement is said to be factual at least in terms of things that aren't core doctrines such as the life; burial and resurrection and bodily return of Christ. This stems back to my last post as well; because as I see it having kids memorize and study chatechisms before showing evidence of saving faith in Protestant circles is no different than those of Catholic churches which have ritual readings such as the "Hail Mary".
In any event; these verses quoted attempt to keep central teachings always in mind; as well as being careful for new interpretations and errant versions of the Bible. In brief if it appeals to the flesh it is to be avoided in worship.
Wondering what others believe about this verse about everything God created being "good"- Some use this to say it's morally ok for them to do drugs like weed, cocaine, mushrooms, meth?
"For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:" 1 Timothy 4:4 KJV. Also Genesis 1:31, Romans 14:14, Acts 11:7-9
At what point do we believe something is no longer God's creation, but a man-made creation, like a drug made in a lab? And how do we balance that with harming the body? "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" 1 Corinthians 6:19 KJV
If we look at events unfolding today; it is no surprise when we see verses such as 1 Peter 4:17 on God judging the church before the world; and the scripture on many falling away in the last days ( 1 Timothy 4:1 and other passages). The events of Revelation MUST take place; and will come to pass after the "restrainer" is removed ( 2 Thess. 2:7).
Therefore; there is to be expected increasing efforts from the forces of evil under Satan's dominion to attempt to jump start this process. There are many times in recent decades when an apocalyptic scenario unfolded which the Lord stopped from going any further (such as the area of Babylon under Saddam Hussein in the 1990s with the Gulf War looking like an early fulfillment of the final destruction of Babylon). We could go back centuries to see all the Antichrist candidates since Nero (Napolean; Hitler; Mussolini and many other dictators). Of course the main focus of prophecy is Israel who has miraculously been able to hold that tiny strip of land in the Middle East despite many wars (1948 at it's inception; 1967; 1973 and other skirmishes with Lebanon and the current one on many fronts). I personally believe Psalm 83 is beginning to reach it's fulfillment and may end with the Isaiah 17:1 prophecy on the destruction of Damascus (with many weapons said to be underground there and terrorist cells). I believe after success over the surronding nations Israel will at some point sign the Daniel 9:27 covenant with many to avoid futher regional strife with Turkey; Iran and other enemies who will be consolidated under Russia.
We are; of course to continue to occupy until He comes (for some reason I can't find the verse I want here); and we are to remain as "salt and light" ( Matt. 5:13-14). God uses us to hold back evil but we need to focus on the Great Commission not bringing down a world system. We live as an example to the world ( 1 Peter 3:2 is a good example).
Much of the problems confronting us is because of our own problems with the doctrine we are faced with. For example, some believe that church officers are not to marry. However, Scripture doesn't teach that.
v3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Paul wrote that meats offered to idols are nothing in 1 Corinthians 8 ...
1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
...9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
We must be careful in our liberties as saints. Be joyful Brethren, for the joy of the LORD is our strength.
Merry Christmas and have a prosperous New Year; enjoy the food provided and blessed by our SAVIOR KING.
May our LORD GOD, continue to shine HIS glorious face on all on this forum.
Wow! The situation with your friend is so sad and so serious. :( Your friend, even if she is imagining the ghost, doesn't realize that the devil has her held captive by this evil idea and, what can you expect from believing in such a terrible doctrine. I'll pray for her and you for this situation. Knowing what to do is concerning. Do you think she would be willing to listen to your advise and the bible as to how God sees this thing. If God is so against it perhaps she would realize it isn't her mother but a servant of the devil trying to deceive her with a false sense of security, deceiving her into false beliefs. Perhaps if you can help her to realize and accept that God is saying, through His true word, that her mother has passed on and is not there with her then she might give up on this idea. References that might help you: 1 Timothy 4:1 - Leviticus 19:31 - 1 Chronicles 10:13-14 - 1 John 4:1.
I know a lot of people believe their loved ones are watching them from heaven, even Christians. I have always wondered if they have ever thought that through to a conclusion. Why God would allow such a thing when heaven is a place of peace and joy, why let people look down on this cursed world after they have gone to be with Him and are in His wonderful Prescence. I suppose they think their loved ones would want to do that but that doesn't make any sense either. Do they think Jesus isn't enough for the ones they've left behind to be there for them? Do they think the loved one is actually able to touch them with a sense of comfort somehow and to desire that instead looking to Jesus for their comfort? To look to someone else, a dead person instead of Jesus, for help from above is idolatry. Even worldly people believe this, like their deceased loved ones automatically went to heaven and since religious people accept it they do too. I hope this has been a little bit of help to you and, again I will be in prayer for you and her. :) God Bless
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially those that BELIEVE.
Hebrews 2:8 .... we see not yet ALL THINGS put under him .....
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when ALL THINGS shall be subdued unto him ....God will be ALL in ALL....
Revelation 13:8 And all they that dwell upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP HIM, whose names are NOT WRITTEN in the book of life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world.
Psalms 86:9 All nations whom thou has made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall come and worship before thee.
Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, Oh Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee, for thy judgements are made manifest.
1 Timothy 4:1 Continuing my thought on this subject which is not one subject in particular, but has to do with what's written in 1Tim 4:11."Now the Spirit speaks" CLEARLY "that in the latter times". Speaking of the last days. My focus is mainly on the part of the verse that says "giving heed to seducing spirits". I feel that is probably the most important part of the verse, and I'd like to start with a question, and my question is "What are we giving heed to"? To heed, or give your attention to. We can fight off a lot of things, and be totally convinced in our minds, that we have it altogether, but there's always something that the devil knows about us, that triggers us. I wrote in my last comment how we don't battle with the same things. Your struggle, or fight in this could look completely different than mine, but we're both fighting the same enemy. The devil. That's important to understand. For one, it helps us to be sensitive to others, and not to always expect others to be at the same level as we are spiritually. One could be battling with anger, and another unforgiveness, we just don't know, but all in all the one causing the havoc in our individual lives is the devil. The reason why a person struggles with these things is because they're giving their attention to something that is ungodly, or unfavorable to the LORD. They've offended God, and have not sought God in repentance. They've given heed to, or have allowed themselves to be swallowed up by that very thing they've given their attention to. This is my main point that I'm wanting to make, and that is, because they've done this, they are now bound, they've given heed, and are now in the grip of Satan. I would like to continue on this subject, but one thing I want to point out is we must keep the door of our heart shut to things which are offensive to GOD. Recognizing the difference between light, and darkness. Not allowing the devil a foot. The saying is true "Give the devil a foot and he'll take a mile."
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" 1 Timothy 4:1 Somone said to me "The devil has power" to which I replied "The devil has no power". But allow me to rephrase that. The devil only has as much power as we allow him to have over us. Isn't that the truth, because ultimately we're fighting this fight individually. Yes as a body combined we all feel the pains of growth, and the burdens of others, and so we strive together. Yet, as individuals we are all faced with our own individual battle. In other words your test will probably be different from mine, but we're all facing the same enemy. The devil. "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly" or Clearly, that in the latter times, or a later period, some shall depart from the faith. I'm going to try to explain this the best I can without going off subject, and bringing this all together to hopefully allow for understanding of what God is wanting to say. We have an enemy, and that enemy is Satan. That's something we can all agree upon. The intent of this enemy is to wreck havoc on your life, and he wants to do that so badly, that he's just waiting for an opportunity. "Giving heed to seducing spirits" That word heed means to pay attention to, or give your attention to. Now this is where I brought up the fact that Satan only has as much power as we allow him. We shouldn't be looking for a horned, beastly looking creature when it comes to Satan, but on the contrary. We should be ever so careful, and watchful for the subtleties of this enemy of our minds. Our eyes are the window to our soul. The song "Be Careful Little Eyes" is a children's song, yet it applies to everyone. It only takes seconds for the devil to move in, and only seconds for someone to fall pray, but the fall is for an eternity. We must be ever so watchful. Not allowing the devil any space. Staying in the word, and praying always. Be faithful!
My name is Oseas, in English language Hosea, in Hebrew Hoshea, or even Joshua- Numbers 13:16.
You should remember that the Word of GOD reveals(the Word is GOD,self-executing)that"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron- 1 Timothy 4:1-2.
You are "asking for prayer for the world" because(as you said) "there's so much going on right now", but remember: What is happening it is the LITERAL fulfillment of the prophetic Word of GOD, so the most important is to be focused in the fulfillment of Scriptures as is written:"Woe to the earth(Israel)and the sea(Gentile nations), because the Devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
There is no prayer that can change the course of the fulfillment of prophecies, see what happened to Peter when he suggested something contrary to the Scriptures- Matthew 16:22-23.
1John 5:18-20:-->18 We know that whosoever is born of GOD sinneth not; but he that is begotten of GOD keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19And we know that we are of GOD, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20And we know that the Son of GOD is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true GOD, and eternal life.
Also remember:To every thing there is a season,and a time to every purpose under the heaven:A time to be born,and a time to die;a time to plant,and a time to pluck up that which is planted;A time to get,and a time to lose;a time to keep,and a time to cast away;a time to keep silence,and a time to speak;a time of war, and a time of peace,and so on-Eccl.3:1-8.
For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry-Heb.10:37.
The problem with the question of eternal security lies in having NO KNOWLEDGE of God's WORD.
If one deeply studies the PROPHECIES, one will see that at some point in the ages to come all the tribes of Israel are going to once again exit.
BUT, in this AGE he is ONLY calling out the PREISTHOOD, the house of David, the kind of firstfruits as is the tribe of Judah, lawgivers that will rule and reign and serve him when he resurrects all the DEAD back to there bodies of flesh and blood.
If one studies under the spirit of truth, you find these prophecies in the blessings of Israel to his twelve sons, from the beginning the tribe of Judah was CHOSEN to be God's lawgiver. The blessing on the remaining tribes will be fulfilled after all the lawgivers are put in place.
Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zachariah, and Revelation all prophesy ONLY a PART will be save in this age, one third (probably symbolic) since other prophecies seem to say ONE TENTH, the tithe to God, those without blemish being sacrificed with Christ on HIS CROSS.
You find this in the blessings of Jacob and Esau.
Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau CONCERNING THINGS TO COME.
There are TWO DEATHS, TWO RESURRECTION and TWO JUDGEMENTS,
The first death and resurrection is those SAVED in this AGE, the ones Christ CAUSES TO BELIEVE in this AGE, they are being judged by the words of God.
1 Timothy 4:10 ... who is the SAVIOUR of ALL MEN (not necessarily in this AGE), especially THOSE (in this AGE) that BELIEVE.
Isaiah 6:13 But yet in it (the land) shall be a tenth, and it (the tenth) shall be eaten (same as Christ is eaten, eat the words and digest them) as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance (CHRIST) IS IN THEM, when they cast their leaves (administer judgement), so the HOLY SEED shall be the substance thereof.
Obadiah 1:21 And SAVIOURS (those conformed to the image of Christ) SHALL COME upon Mt, Zion to JUDGE the house of ESAU
1 Timothy 4:1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
This verse is in contrast to what is said in the previous Chapter.
" 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 4:1 It can read, "But" the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Timothy 3:16 - 1 Timthy 4;1.
Putting them together reads like this.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. "But" the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
This is saying some will depart from what was formally taught and
giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; It is not talking about losing salvation.
It reminds me of Luke 18:8. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (This should be read shall he find THE faith on the earth?)
Again, we have Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
(No believer has an evil heart of unbelief). The writer is saying examine yourself. Verse 10 he says, "They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
You emphasized 1 John 1;7.
I say: IF we are saved, we ARE walking in the light! if we are not in the light we ARE in darkness!
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7. (This is confirmation of salvation, not earning it or trying not to lose it.)
I believe we will have to agree to disagree on the verses you addressed in part 4 being that I have already gave my interpretation on these verses.
However, I would like to address 1 Timothy 4:1. In Part 3.
Each believer is personally responsible for living in obedience to Christ's commands. 1 Timothy 4:16. Can we come up short, Hebrews 4:1. Some of the natural branches of the house of Israel were broken off for unbelief so the people of the nations who believe and are justified are grafted in. Believers/saved can be cut off if they do not continue in his goodness/grace. Romans 11:15-24.
Much of your post I agree, it is about becoming saved and our relationship with Jesus, and if we continue to abide in Him those scriptures apply. Concerning Pentecost, Peter was pleading that they accept Jesus as their Messiah that was promised, and they killed Him, not to repent from Judaism. Peter and the disciples at this time were still observing the old law. We see years later they were still debating it in Acts 15.
1 Cor. 9:27 If we look at the wording "But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection" it is as if his body is his adversary. It is like he was beating his body whether it is said metaphorical, but to the subduing of the natural appetites of the flesh, a life of self-denial not to succumb to the sins of the flesh. The Greek adokimos translated as castaway, is the same word for reprobate, Romans 1:28Titus 1:16. I do not think Paul is talking about rewards.
Hebrews 3:12-13 This chapter starts with "Wherefore holy brethern" These are Christians, saved, verse 6 "if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." The writer includes himself "If We". Verses 12 and 13 are to these same people and verse 14 says "For we are made partakers of Christ" Because they are made so they are saved believers in Christ.
1 John 1:7 If is conditional a choice if you walk in the light there is fellowship, if you don't walk in the light, you are outside of the fellowship.
I am referring to the scriptures that warn those who were saved in the faith that intentionally choose, they knowingly live a sinful lifestyle. They call what is wrong right and sin is ok. They justify and condone sin, much of what we see today, people who were saved but now say sin is okay, I will not list things I'm sure you see it too, what used to be condemned is now ok and accepted, Isaiah 5:20. After we are justified if we do not abide in Jesus if we do not live a life of repentance and obedience, we will be outside of the grace of God.
When Jesus died on the cross, He paid for every sin that the human race will ever commit, from Adam's first sin until the last sin that will be committed. Our sins before we were born again were forgiven, 2 Peter 1:9. Our sins are not forgiven before we commit them, now or in the future. We all will sin but we do not become unsaved. If we confess, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us.
Our life we live is We will be forgiven, not we have been forgiven that is why we should not ignore the Spirit's loving work. Hey, don't do that, and if we slip up, we repent for our disobedience. To me that is a life of repentance and obedience, not works for salvation it is the evidence of our faith. A person can stop doing and lose, walk away, or forfeit, their gift of salvation.
1 Timothy 4:1 Some shall depart from the faith, these are Christians, and you have to be a part of it to depart from it. The process of salvation will not be complete until the return of Jesus and we are resurrected and glorified in our immortal bodies.
Thank you, brother, for this discussion may we grow in faith and understanding.
Concluding thoughts on national sovereignty vs one world order
In the end; he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. ( Matt. 26:52; also see Revelation 13:10). As Christians we are to remain as salt and light to resist the decay that the current world system under Satanic influence is headed toward. Similarly; we should not cede to others things that are inalienable rights that our forefathers fought so hard for and is enacted in our Constitution and other important legal documents as to how a Republic is to be run. We shouldn't; however make that our priority; as His Kingdom is not of this world ( John 18:36). We see ways; for instance with certain bitcoin currencies how we can be in an internationally accepted means of exchange (for now) which is an alternative to the electronic cash and other efforts governments and private banks are attempting to control the narrative and our lives. It is hard to say if we do have a sort of one world government how far it will progress before the Tribulation; peace is taken from the earth at the 2nd Seal; that leaves us to wonder if it is just a type of peace that is in effect since just the first seal or if it has lasted a while.
One world religion again is something that is developing; we are responsible to hold onto the Philadelphian type church and patiently endure as Revelation 3:10 states until the Lord comes back to receive our reward even with little strength. We must avoid any false revival and not expect mass conversions at a time when many are said to fall away if we are indeed in the last days ( 1 Timothy 4:1 and also see Matthew 24:10). If we live in a world system where we have to pay taxes then of course we need wisdom. The plans are clear from the "powers that be" (without having to name the source) that in a few short years we are supposed to be content losing property and any private ownership. So be it; if the Gospel is preached we can let go these temporal things for His Name's sake.
"I have met people who claim to have reached sinless perfection in their lives, but in reality, I notice many sins happening in their lives. They have just pridefully either deluded themselves, or ignore these sines, or else attribute them to mistakes or weaknesses, but do not admit them to be sin."
This type of individual's current state is very concerning and DANGEROUS! It felt off in my Spirit when you mentioned it. This can be an individual who has RESISTED the Holy Spirit for SO long or so many times they don't "hear" the Holy Spirit. They go AGAINST their [([([( CONSCIENCE ])])])] so many times they may have damaged it beyond repair. Paul talks about having a damaged conscience. 1 Timothy 4:2 (KJV) 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
In 1 Tim Paul states that a person has gone against their conscience SO many times it is dead. It is now leading them in the wrong direction! What is right is wrong and what is wrong is right and they make sense of it in their minds! This is utterly terrifying and a good illustration and warning to others to NOT go against your conscience as that may be the Holy Spirit trying to move you a certain way. So don't do that before it is TOO late!
True Christ vs. Imaginary (further examination of confessors vs. possessors)
The parable of the wheat and the tares should be alarming to everyone; and necessary instruction. ( Matt. 13:24-30). It is said that the wheat and tares are indistinguishable from one another before they are fully ripened. It appears from this parable that God has His purposes for these two groups to remain until the end of the age. Most probably; this is testing for those who ARE true believers to ensure that they won't fall for the temptations of this world as well as false or compromised doctines as well as a lifestyle of sin. Again; our society in general doesn't seem to be finding too many newcomers to churches because of it is a novel practice; or the world is being turned upside down ( Acts 17:6) which were characteristic of the church in Apostolic times.
However; the "damnable heresies" ( 2 Peter 2:1) are increasing along with 1 Timothy 4:1-2; etc. are invading former solid denominations so that a person can have a sense of respectability and pride in church attendance that tells them what they want to hear. Part of this; of course is the result of decades of permissive society and decline of morals; both within and without the church walls; I have stated before no doubt that the destruction of marriages is what I consider to be the primary initial cause especially post World War 2 of what we see today.
A primary example here is how people look at 1 John 2:1-2 on confession of sin and forgiveness. While it is true that Christ's death took care of all sin; past and future; we still have to confess sin; and if someone has the Holy Spirit in them they cannot be content with sin ( Galatians 5:17). a LIFESTYLE of sin such as continual adultery; theft; fornication; and other actions means that ultimately we don't trust God as to His warnings such as in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 as to reaping what we sow; and don't trust Him to be in the driver's seat in our lives and our souls.
Did you know that there were other English translations before the KJB? Were they also corrupt? Were the KJB translators King James Onlyists? Did they think that their translation alone was the word of God. Did they think that all previous translations were corrupt? Did they think that any translation written after theirs should be automatically discarded and labeled as being corrupt? I think these are valid questions. Can you please answer these?
You also ask me how would I know the difference between a corrupt translation and one that can be trusted? First of all, I will say that I trust the KJB. But there is no way that I can tell you that the KJB is a perfect word for word (no errors) translation without taking the same materials the translators used and testing putting them to the test. After all, we are told to test all things. But since I am not the one trying to prove that the KJB is the only translation that is the pure perfect word of God, and that all others are corrupt, perhaps maybe you can take this task on? And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 2 Timothy 4:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Jeremiah 23:36 have nothing to do with bible translations. You are also misapplying those verses.
Paul wrote to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:1, and he said now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons. We have that in our day. It even happened back in Paul's day and they thought that it would really be a serious time. It was for them, but it's gotten worse!
As far as endurance goes, God produces endurance in us. God works in our lives to produce the endurance we would not be able to manufacture by our own efforts. He does this as we properly respond to our trials. When we go through trials and hardships, even severe persecution, God gives us the ability to endure through them.
You listed persevere as a definition which is correct. Perseverance of the saints means that God keeps believers by his power, and strengthens their faith so that they can persevere. Perseverance of the saints is God's work. God uses various methods to cause believers to persevere. We are put through trials, we are tested, but we will persevere, we will endure because Christ in us gives us the ability to endure.
Lastly, if I may share a couple of quotes:
"The one who endures - This statement in one sense describes the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Genuine disciples will endure to the end of their life or the end of this age not by their own efforts but because the indwelling Spirit enables them to endure to the end. Endurance does not save anyone but it demonstrates that one is truly saved! Stated another way, it is not one's endurance (self-effort or works) that saves them but that one is able to endure because of the fact that they are saved."
(Charles Spurgeon)
"Faith that perseveres is faith endowed and sustained by the indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ.
Amen, yes that what falling away or depart means, in these last days. Only turn to doctrine of devils.Yes, 1 Timothy 4:1-2 KJV
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
REVELATION 22:19 And if any man shall TAKE AWAY from the words of the prophecy of THIS BOOK, God shall take away his part out of the words of this BOOK, and out of the Holy city, and from the thinks WRITTEN in THIS BOOK.
THE BOOK is Christ; all the BOOKS, are the written WORD about the LIVING WORD, Christ is the spirit of Prophecy.
Amos 3:3 Can TWO walk together (and become ONE), except they( the two) be AGREED.
The TWO is the BOOK (the word, which is God) and MAN (YOU).
If you don't AGREE and BELIEVE the BOOK (take away or add) you want have a part in the BOOK.
Psalms 7:13 He (God) hath prepared for him the INSTRUMENT OF DEATH ...
Romans 6:23 The wages of SIN (not believing ALL THE BOOK) is DEATH ....
John 16:8 And when HE (the word, the BOOK, the spirit of prophecy, the HOLY GHOST) is COME, he will REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN:
John 16:9 OF SIN, because the BELIEVE NOT ON ME (the Book, the Word, ALL of the Books and all the WORD).
The LIVING WORD; CHRIST, has revealed himself in the WRITTEN word.
1 Timothy 4:19 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the LIVING GOD (the BOOK), who is the saviour of ALL MEN, especially those that believe.
Have you added to, or taken away from these words in THE BOOK (CHRIST), then according to Revelation 22:19 God has taken your part out of the words of THE BOOK (CHRIST).
FEW find THE WAY
Ezekiel 5:3 Thou (Christ) shall take a FEW in number, and bind them in thy skirt (clothing of priest the ephod).
Ezekiel 5:4 Take of them (the FEW) again, and CAST THEM into the MIDST of the FIRE, and burn them in the fire, for thereof (those FEW) shall a FIRE COME FORTH into all the house of Israel.
Obadiah 1:21 And SAVIOURS (ONE with THE BOOK) shall come upon Mount Zion to JUDGE the mount of Esau, and the kingdom shall be the LORDS.
Isaiah 26:9 ...for when THY (the BOOK) JUDGEMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD will learn righteousness (Christ, the BOOK is our RIGHTEOUSNESS).
Good deal, I agree it takes all scripture to see the truth. Missler writes that it was in the fifth century it flourished which is probably true, but we see it started way before. We see in 1 Timothy 4:1-3 and what Jesus said about the Nicolaitans in Revelation.
Augustine did support the Sethite and Cainite view of Gen. 6 teaching, he also brought in other teachings.
We should deliberate; whether it is philosophy, the love of wisdom, or truth, that is in the scriptures unveiled by the Spirit of Truth to eyes and ears open to see and hear it.
Why is Romans 10:9 not a salvation message to the world? Christ, at some point in time, is going to raise all unbelievers back to their flesh.
Romans 10:9 If thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALL BE SAVED.
There is no time line defined in this verse ,as in this age we are now in, the feast of first fruits, there is still the age of the ingathering, the feast of tabernacles, yet to come.
No one is saved until they depart this body of mortal flesh, no one is born again until they depart this body of mortal flesh.
I Timothy 6:16 Who (Christ) ONLY hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the LIGHT which no man can approach unto ......
1 Corinthians 15:53 ....this mortal (at the death of this body) SHALL PUT ON IMMORTALITY ......
1 Corinthians 15:49 A we bear have borne the image of the earthly (mortal), we shall also SHALL bear the image of the heavenly --- IMMORTALITY --- Christ ONLY hath immortality ----
But God giveth IT (the new creation, born a second time) a BODY as it has pleased him, and to ever SEED his OWN BODY ----Christ is the BODY of the FATHER ----
Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they ARE CREATED (the second birth, upon the death of this mortal body): and thou renewest the face of the earth ---- Revelations 21:5 ....I make all things new .....
Isaiah 45:23 ....every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess ....
Romans 14:11 ....every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess ....
Romans 10:9 That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the grave, THOU SHALL BE SAVE.
Romans 10:10 ..... and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 Timothy 4:10 .....who is SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially those that believe.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these thing happen FOR ENSAMPLES; and they are written for OUR ADMONITION .....
Matthew 12:34 states that "out of the abundance of the heart; the mouth speaketh." Isaiah 8:20 speaking about those who are false Prophets says "to the word and the testimony". They are said if not to speak the truth to have "no light of the dawn". Contrast this with Revelation 12:11 where the word of their testimony of the Tribulation martyrs indicates that they "loved not their lives unto the death." With today's churches having doctrines as skewed as they are we aren't safe to assume that occultic demonic "doctrines of demons" haven't already infected many congregations as 1 Timothy 4:1 warns. But for the remainder of this discussion I will assume that at least a respectable version of the scriptures is being preached in the churches I am examining here.
The Lord stated how "a little leaven ruins the whole loaf". ( Galatians 5:9 and other verses). No one is going to offer arsenic with a little inert ingredient to temper the flavor as an appetizer; but if being devious will put a little poison in something that is tasty. Satan won't come along saying that he is a deceiver; liar and murdurer and by the way wouldn't you like to join my cause? Admittedly there are a few who are sadistic enough to play the fiddle with the Devil as it were with some fantasy that they are so vile that they can command the Devil what to do; and there are some who despite knowing his nature think that Satan won't grind them into powder as was requested by Satan to Christ in the case of Peter.
The greatest danger; therefore lies when sin enters within the tent; the congregation of meeting and scripture is mixed in to instill false confidence in one's spiritual standing; or twisted to justify what eventually becomes a festering cancer after initially being toyed with by a few in idle conversation. There is also the ever present danger of trying to justify a doctrine; either true or false by turning literal scriptures to figurative.
This topic about secured (or not) salvation has been discussed a lot between us here on this forum in the past. Beliefs differ. Mine is that salvation can be lost if one leaves God's path and starts following a foreign path and eventually dies in their sin. In my opinion there are many verses in the Bible that state that. One I have gone through recently is in 1 Timothy 4:15-16, (Paul advices Timothy) "Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: FOR IN DOING THIS THOU SHALT BOTH SAVE THYSELF, and them that hear thee." Why does Paul say to Timothy that by doing those he WILL save himself, isn't Timothy saved already (by been born again)? Yes but he has to keep his salvation by doing specific things, like obeying and properly teaching God's path(commadments). And the outcome of his life's strives to walk the narrow road will be the final salvation, the crown of righteouness, the crown of victory. A lot more can be said. GBU
Hi David, I was wondering how you would explain that and reconcile what the Bible says with your belief.
These verses are in context and contradict what you are claiming, but even though they're in context and you just click or hover over it to read the whole chapter or book you just dismissed it as not being in context.
I noticed your response didn't have any Bible verses supporting your view.
I believe in and stand by Jesus's words. It sounds like you're accusing Jesus of being about "works." You do so at your own risk. I will not be ashamed for believing in what Jesus says, even if people use all kinds of tricks to attack.
Jesus: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15
You: No, don't obey, because that's works.
Is that really your position that it's "bad" to obey Jesus, and "good" to not obey Jesus?
If so, that sounds exactly like something satan would say. Such a clever deception to get people to believe its somehow bad to do good and good to do bad. As if God wants people to disobey Him!?
Also I noticed you used the same straw man argument everyone else has been taught to use that if you want to follow Jesus then automatically you're trying to work towards heaven and there's no other possibility. I already said we're saved by grace, which seemed to be ignored. Of course I already answered this fallacy in advance, but maybe you didn't read it or did and claimed this fallacy anyway. Anyway, I feel a moral obligation to counter the lies on here and anyone claiming that its bad to follow and bad to obey Jesus is just is not speaking the truth. The Bible warns Christians of this throughout scripture.
Verses 10-12 state: And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? 11Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff. 12Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
This passage illustrates the reaction of Joshua after they were routed in battle. Joshua lamely states that it would have been better to not have entered where they were than to be routed by the Amorites. He ignores promises 400 years prior about the fullness of the iniquity of the Amorites; but is totally blind to the REASON for the event; which boiled down to one person coveting gold and other things which were cursed objects somehow tied into the demonic realm that were; as the rest of the populus to be devoted unto destruction. Joshua 6:18 warns about such behavior; and Achan was the individual responsible and was summarily stoned afterwards; followed by victory on the battlefield. They should have learned from what happened with Korah's rebellion in Numbers 16:32 when they were swallowed up by the earth after trying to usurp the role of Priesthood that Moses had. We see in both these passages that unless the sin was dealt with the entire people would be destroyed.
In today's New Testament church we see Ananias and Sapphira in the same sort of swift judgment in Acts 5. Normally; of course our first priority has to be our own sin but we have to guard not only our own hearts but watch out for the "enemy in the camp" which today often involves "damnable heresies" ( 2 Peter 2:1); also see 1 Timothy 4:1 on last days false teaching.
See Romans 12:19 on God's vengeance.
1 Timothy 4:1
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"
1 Corinthians 1:23-24
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Going from the last discussion on Cathechisms; doctrine is at the core and essense of that topic. All commitments which we adhere to especially related to church membership in regard to doctrine in the Cathechism should be based on scriptural truth.
Clearly in today's churches we see many variations of interpretation and many are spurious. I am not here primarily to bash any particular denomination; but asking us to be Bereans in studying the Word to be approved before men and God ( Acts 17:11). It is noteable that the Bereans were said to be more noble than the Thessalonians especially since they came to quick understanding of deep prophetic texts. I am not aware that they were even an organized church; per se; maybe someone can shed light on that. In any event NO church hierarchy should dissuade careful study of scripture before any commitment is made; or any statement is said to be factual at least in terms of things that aren't core doctrines such as the life; burial and resurrection and bodily return of Christ. This stems back to my last post as well; because as I see it having kids memorize and study chatechisms before showing evidence of saving faith in Protestant circles is no different than those of Catholic churches which have ritual readings such as the "Hail Mary".
In any event; these verses quoted attempt to keep central teachings always in mind; as well as being careful for new interpretations and errant versions of the Bible. In brief if it appeals to the flesh it is to be avoided in worship.
"For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:" 1 Timothy 4:4 KJV. Also Genesis 1:31, Romans 14:14, Acts 11:7-9
At what point do we believe something is no longer God's creation, but a man-made creation, like a drug made in a lab? And how do we balance that with harming the body? "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" 1 Corinthians 6:19 KJV
Thank you.
If we look at events unfolding today; it is no surprise when we see verses such as 1 Peter 4:17 on God judging the church before the world; and the scripture on many falling away in the last days ( 1 Timothy 4:1 and other passages). The events of Revelation MUST take place; and will come to pass after the "restrainer" is removed ( 2 Thess. 2:7).
Therefore; there is to be expected increasing efforts from the forces of evil under Satan's dominion to attempt to jump start this process. There are many times in recent decades when an apocalyptic scenario unfolded which the Lord stopped from going any further (such as the area of Babylon under Saddam Hussein in the 1990s with the Gulf War looking like an early fulfillment of the final destruction of Babylon). We could go back centuries to see all the Antichrist candidates since Nero (Napolean; Hitler; Mussolini and many other dictators). Of course the main focus of prophecy is Israel who has miraculously been able to hold that tiny strip of land in the Middle East despite many wars (1948 at it's inception; 1967; 1973 and other skirmishes with Lebanon and the current one on many fronts). I personally believe Psalm 83 is beginning to reach it's fulfillment and may end with the Isaiah 17:1 prophecy on the destruction of Damascus (with many weapons said to be underground there and terrorist cells). I believe after success over the surronding nations Israel will at some point sign the Daniel 9:27 covenant with many to avoid futher regional strife with Turkey; Iran and other enemies who will be consolidated under Russia.
We are; of course to continue to occupy until He comes (for some reason I can't find the verse I want here); and we are to remain as "salt and light" ( Matt. 5:13-14). God uses us to hold back evil but we need to focus on the Great Commission not bringing down a world system. We live as an example to the world ( 1 Peter 3:2 is a good example).
v3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Paul wrote that meats offered to idols are nothing in 1 Corinthians 8 ...
1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
...9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
We must be careful in our liberties as saints. Be joyful Brethren, for the joy of the LORD is our strength.
Merry Christmas and have a prosperous New Year; enjoy the food provided and blessed by our SAVIOR KING.
May our LORD GOD, continue to shine HIS glorious face on all on this forum.
December 22, 2023
I know a lot of people believe their loved ones are watching them from heaven, even Christians. I have always wondered if they have ever thought that through to a conclusion. Why God would allow such a thing when heaven is a place of peace and joy, why let people look down on this cursed world after they have gone to be with Him and are in His wonderful Prescence. I suppose they think their loved ones would want to do that but that doesn't make any sense either. Do they think Jesus isn't enough for the ones they've left behind to be there for them? Do they think the loved one is actually able to touch them with a sense of comfort somehow and to desire that instead looking to Jesus for their comfort? To look to someone else, a dead person instead of Jesus, for help from above is idolatry. Even worldly people believe this, like their deceased loved ones automatically went to heaven and since religious people accept it they do too. I hope this has been a little bit of help to you and, again I will be in prayer for you and her. :) God Bless
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially those that BELIEVE.
Hebrews 2:8 .... we see not yet ALL THINGS put under him .....
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when ALL THINGS shall be subdued unto him ....God will be ALL in ALL....
Revelation 13:8 And all they that dwell upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP HIM, whose names are NOT WRITTEN in the book of life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world.
Psalms 86:9 All nations whom thou has made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall come and worship before thee.
Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, Oh Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee, for thy judgements are made manifest.
God bless you
My name is Oseas, in English language Hosea, in Hebrew Hoshea, or even Joshua- Numbers 13:16.
You should remember that the Word of GOD reveals(the Word is GOD,self-executing)that"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron- 1 Timothy 4:1-2.
You are "asking for prayer for the world" because(as you said) "there's so much going on right now", but remember: What is happening it is the LITERAL fulfillment of the prophetic Word of GOD, so the most important is to be focused in the fulfillment of Scriptures as is written:"Woe to the earth(Israel)and the sea(Gentile nations), because the Devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
There is no prayer that can change the course of the fulfillment of prophecies, see what happened to Peter when he suggested something contrary to the Scriptures- Matthew 16:22-23.
1John 5:18-20:-->18 We know that whosoever is born of GOD sinneth not; but he that is begotten of GOD keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19And we know that we are of GOD, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20And we know that the Son of GOD is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true GOD, and eternal life.
Also remember:To every thing there is a season,and a time to every purpose under the heaven:A time to be born,and a time to die;a time to plant,and a time to pluck up that which is planted;A time to get,and a time to lose;a time to keep,and a time to cast away;a time to keep silence,and a time to speak;a time of war, and a time of peace,and so on-Eccl.3:1-8.
For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry-Heb.10:37.
Be careful and get ready
The problem with the question of eternal security lies in having NO KNOWLEDGE of God's WORD.
If one deeply studies the PROPHECIES, one will see that at some point in the ages to come all the tribes of Israel are going to once again exit.
BUT, in this AGE he is ONLY calling out the PREISTHOOD, the house of David, the kind of firstfruits as is the tribe of Judah, lawgivers that will rule and reign and serve him when he resurrects all the DEAD back to there bodies of flesh and blood.
If one studies under the spirit of truth, you find these prophecies in the blessings of Israel to his twelve sons, from the beginning the tribe of Judah was CHOSEN to be God's lawgiver. The blessing on the remaining tribes will be fulfilled after all the lawgivers are put in place.
Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zachariah, and Revelation all prophesy ONLY a PART will be save in this age, one third (probably symbolic) since other prophecies seem to say ONE TENTH, the tithe to God, those without blemish being sacrificed with Christ on HIS CROSS.
You find this in the blessings of Jacob and Esau.
Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau CONCERNING THINGS TO COME.
There are TWO DEATHS, TWO RESURRECTION and TWO JUDGEMENTS,
The first death and resurrection is those SAVED in this AGE, the ones Christ CAUSES TO BELIEVE in this AGE, they are being judged by the words of God.
1 Timothy 4:10 ... who is the SAVIOUR of ALL MEN (not necessarily in this AGE), especially THOSE (in this AGE) that BELIEVE.
Isaiah 6:13 But yet in it (the land) shall be a tenth, and it (the tenth) shall be eaten (same as Christ is eaten, eat the words and digest them) as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance (CHRIST) IS IN THEM, when they cast their leaves (administer judgement), so the HOLY SEED shall be the substance thereof.
Obadiah 1:21 And SAVIOURS (those conformed to the image of Christ) SHALL COME upon Mt, Zion to JUDGE the house of ESAU
and the Kingdom shall be the LORDS.
God's commandments are EVERY WORD that proceeds out of his mouth,not just TEN written in stone.
1 Timothy 4:10 ....... who is the SAVIOUR of ALL MEN, specially those that BELIEVE......
1 Timothy 4:11 These things COMMAND and TEACH.
How many BELIEVE these WORDS of Christ and FOLLOW those words.
The word of God contains about 750,000 words, they all APPLY as a commandment.
God BlessYOU!
Part 3.
Addressing 1 Timothy 4:1
1 Timothy 4:1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
This verse is in contrast to what is said in the previous Chapter.
" 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 4:1 It can read, "But" the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Timothy 3:16 - 1 Timthy 4;1.
Putting them together reads like this.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. "But" the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
This is saying some will depart from what was formally taught and
giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; It is not talking about losing salvation.
It reminds me of Luke 18:8. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (This should be read shall he find THE faith on the earth?)
See Part 4.
Part 2.
Continuing my response to part 1.
Again, we have Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
(No believer has an evil heart of unbelief). The writer is saying examine yourself. Verse 10 he says, "They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
You emphasized 1 John 1;7.
I say: IF we are saved, we ARE walking in the light! if we are not in the light we ARE in darkness!
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7. (This is confirmation of salvation, not earning it or trying not to lose it.)
I believe we will have to agree to disagree on the verses you addressed in part 4 being that I have already gave my interpretation on these verses.
However, I would like to address 1 Timothy 4:1. In Part 3.
See Part 3.
Part three,
Each believer is personally responsible for living in obedience to Christ's commands. 1 Timothy 4:16. Can we come up short, Hebrews 4:1. Some of the natural branches of the house of Israel were broken off for unbelief so the people of the nations who believe and are justified are grafted in. Believers/saved can be cut off if they do not continue in his goodness/grace. Romans 11:15-24.
Much of your post I agree, it is about becoming saved and our relationship with Jesus, and if we continue to abide in Him those scriptures apply. Concerning Pentecost, Peter was pleading that they accept Jesus as their Messiah that was promised, and they killed Him, not to repent from Judaism. Peter and the disciples at this time were still observing the old law. We see years later they were still debating it in Acts 15.
1 Cor. 9:27 If we look at the wording "But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection" it is as if his body is his adversary. It is like he was beating his body whether it is said metaphorical, but to the subduing of the natural appetites of the flesh, a life of self-denial not to succumb to the sins of the flesh. The Greek adokimos translated as castaway, is the same word for reprobate, Romans 1:28 Titus 1:16. I do not think Paul is talking about rewards.
Hebrews 3:12-13 This chapter starts with "Wherefore holy brethern" These are Christians, saved, verse 6 "if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." The writer includes himself "If We". Verses 12 and 13 are to these same people and verse 14 says "For we are made partakers of Christ" Because they are made so they are saved believers in Christ.
1 John 1:7 If is conditional a choice if you walk in the light there is fellowship, if you don't walk in the light, you are outside of the fellowship.
See part four.
Part 5
I am referring to the scriptures that warn those who were saved in the faith that intentionally choose, they knowingly live a sinful lifestyle. They call what is wrong right and sin is ok. They justify and condone sin, much of what we see today, people who were saved but now say sin is okay, I will not list things I'm sure you see it too, what used to be condemned is now ok and accepted, Isaiah 5:20. After we are justified if we do not abide in Jesus if we do not live a life of repentance and obedience, we will be outside of the grace of God.
When Jesus died on the cross, He paid for every sin that the human race will ever commit, from Adam's first sin until the last sin that will be committed. Our sins before we were born again were forgiven, 2 Peter 1:9. Our sins are not forgiven before we commit them, now or in the future. We all will sin but we do not become unsaved. If we confess, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us.
Our life we live is We will be forgiven, not we have been forgiven that is why we should not ignore the Spirit's loving work. Hey, don't do that, and if we slip up, we repent for our disobedience. To me that is a life of repentance and obedience, not works for salvation it is the evidence of our faith. A person can stop doing and lose, walk away, or forfeit, their gift of salvation.
1 Timothy 4:1 Some shall depart from the faith, these are Christians, and you have to be a part of it to depart from it. The process of salvation will not be complete until the return of Jesus and we are resurrected and glorified in our immortal bodies.
Thank you, brother, for this discussion may we grow in faith and understanding.
God bless,
RLW
In the end; he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. ( Matt. 26:52; also see Revelation 13:10). As Christians we are to remain as salt and light to resist the decay that the current world system under Satanic influence is headed toward. Similarly; we should not cede to others things that are inalienable rights that our forefathers fought so hard for and is enacted in our Constitution and other important legal documents as to how a Republic is to be run. We shouldn't; however make that our priority; as His Kingdom is not of this world ( John 18:36). We see ways; for instance with certain bitcoin currencies how we can be in an internationally accepted means of exchange (for now) which is an alternative to the electronic cash and other efforts governments and private banks are attempting to control the narrative and our lives. It is hard to say if we do have a sort of one world government how far it will progress before the Tribulation; peace is taken from the earth at the 2nd Seal; that leaves us to wonder if it is just a type of peace that is in effect since just the first seal or if it has lasted a while.
One world religion again is something that is developing; we are responsible to hold onto the Philadelphian type church and patiently endure as Revelation 3:10 states until the Lord comes back to receive our reward even with little strength. We must avoid any false revival and not expect mass conversions at a time when many are said to fall away if we are indeed in the last days ( 1 Timothy 4:1 and also see Matthew 24:10). If we live in a world system where we have to pay taxes then of course we need wisdom. The plans are clear from the "powers that be" (without having to name the source) that in a few short years we are supposed to be content losing property and any private ownership. So be it; if the Gospel is preached we can let go these temporal things for His Name's sake.
"I have met people who claim to have reached sinless perfection in their lives, but in reality, I notice many sins happening in their lives. They have just pridefully either deluded themselves, or ignore these sines, or else attribute them to mistakes or weaknesses, but do not admit them to be sin."
This type of individual's current state is very concerning and DANGEROUS! It felt off in my Spirit when you mentioned it. This can be an individual who has RESISTED the Holy Spirit for SO long or so many times they don't "hear" the Holy Spirit. They go AGAINST their [([([( CONSCIENCE ])])])] so many times they may have damaged it beyond repair. Paul talks about having a damaged conscience. 1 Timothy 4:2 (KJV) 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
In 1 Tim Paul states that a person has gone against their conscience SO many times it is dead. It is now leading them in the wrong direction! What is right is wrong and what is wrong is right and they make sense of it in their minds! This is utterly terrifying and a good illustration and warning to others to NOT go against your conscience as that may be the Holy Spirit trying to move you a certain way. So don't do that before it is TOO late!
The parable of the wheat and the tares should be alarming to everyone; and necessary instruction. ( Matt. 13:24-30). It is said that the wheat and tares are indistinguishable from one another before they are fully ripened. It appears from this parable that God has His purposes for these two groups to remain until the end of the age. Most probably; this is testing for those who ARE true believers to ensure that they won't fall for the temptations of this world as well as false or compromised doctines as well as a lifestyle of sin. Again; our society in general doesn't seem to be finding too many newcomers to churches because of it is a novel practice; or the world is being turned upside down ( Acts 17:6) which were characteristic of the church in Apostolic times.
However; the "damnable heresies" ( 2 Peter 2:1) are increasing along with 1 Timothy 4:1-2; etc. are invading former solid denominations so that a person can have a sense of respectability and pride in church attendance that tells them what they want to hear. Part of this; of course is the result of decades of permissive society and decline of morals; both within and without the church walls; I have stated before no doubt that the destruction of marriages is what I consider to be the primary initial cause especially post World War 2 of what we see today.
A primary example here is how people look at 1 John 2:1-2 on confession of sin and forgiveness. While it is true that Christ's death took care of all sin; past and future; we still have to confess sin; and if someone has the Holy Spirit in them they cannot be content with sin ( Galatians 5:17). a LIFESTYLE of sin such as continual adultery; theft; fornication; and other actions means that ultimately we don't trust God as to His warnings such as in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 as to reaping what we sow; and don't trust Him to be in the driver's seat in our lives and our souls.
Jimbob,
Did you know that there were other English translations before the KJB? Were they also corrupt? Were the KJB translators King James Onlyists? Did they think that their translation alone was the word of God. Did they think that all previous translations were corrupt? Did they think that any translation written after theirs should be automatically discarded and labeled as being corrupt? I think these are valid questions. Can you please answer these?
You also ask me how would I know the difference between a corrupt translation and one that can be trusted? First of all, I will say that I trust the KJB. But there is no way that I can tell you that the KJB is a perfect word for word (no errors) translation without taking the same materials the translators used and testing putting them to the test. After all, we are told to test all things. But since I am not the one trying to prove that the KJB is the only translation that is the pure perfect word of God, and that all others are corrupt, perhaps maybe you can take this task on? And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 2 Timothy 4:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Jeremiah 23:36 have nothing to do with bible translations. You are also misapplying those verses.
Blessings to you also!
Jimbob,
Paul wrote to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:1, and he said now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons. We have that in our day. It even happened back in Paul's day and they thought that it would really be a serious time. It was for them, but it's gotten worse!
As far as endurance goes, God produces endurance in us. God works in our lives to produce the endurance we would not be able to manufacture by our own efforts. He does this as we properly respond to our trials. When we go through trials and hardships, even severe persecution, God gives us the ability to endure through them.
You listed persevere as a definition which is correct. Perseverance of the saints means that God keeps believers by his power, and strengthens their faith so that they can persevere. Perseverance of the saints is God's work. God uses various methods to cause believers to persevere. We are put through trials, we are tested, but we will persevere, we will endure because Christ in us gives us the ability to endure.
Lastly, if I may share a couple of quotes:
"The one who endures - This statement in one sense describes the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Genuine disciples will endure to the end of their life or the end of this age not by their own efforts but because the indwelling Spirit enables them to endure to the end. Endurance does not save anyone but it demonstrates that one is truly saved! Stated another way, it is not one's endurance (self-effort or works) that saves them but that one is able to endure because of the fact that they are saved."
(Charles Spurgeon)
"Faith that perseveres is faith endowed and sustained by the indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ.
(Matthew Commentary)
Blessings in Christ!!!
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
THE BOOK is Christ; all the BOOKS, are the written WORD about the LIVING WORD, Christ is the spirit of Prophecy.
Amos 3:3 Can TWO walk together (and become ONE), except they( the two) be AGREED.
The TWO is the BOOK (the word, which is God) and MAN (YOU).
If you don't AGREE and BELIEVE the BOOK (take away or add) you want have a part in the BOOK.
Psalms 7:13 He (God) hath prepared for him the INSTRUMENT OF DEATH ...
Romans 6:23 The wages of SIN (not believing ALL THE BOOK) is DEATH ....
John 16:8 And when HE (the word, the BOOK, the spirit of prophecy, the HOLY GHOST) is COME, he will REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN:
John 16:9 OF SIN, because the BELIEVE NOT ON ME (the Book, the Word, ALL of the Books and all the WORD).
The LIVING WORD; CHRIST, has revealed himself in the WRITTEN word.
1 Timothy 4:19 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the LIVING GOD (the BOOK), who is the saviour of ALL MEN, especially those that believe.
Have you added to, or taken away from these words in THE BOOK (CHRIST), then according to Revelation 22:19 God has taken your part out of the words of THE BOOK (CHRIST).
FEW find THE WAY
Ezekiel 5:3 Thou (Christ) shall take a FEW in number, and bind them in thy skirt (clothing of priest the ephod).
Ezekiel 5:4 Take of them (the FEW) again, and CAST THEM into the MIDST of the FIRE, and burn them in the fire, for thereof (those FEW) shall a FIRE COME FORTH into all the house of Israel.
Obadiah 1:21 And SAVIOURS (ONE with THE BOOK) shall come upon Mount Zion to JUDGE the mount of Esau, and the kingdom shall be the LORDS.
Isaiah 26:9 ...for when THY (the BOOK) JUDGEMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD will learn righteousness (Christ, the BOOK is our RIGHTEOUSNESS).
Good deal, I agree it takes all scripture to see the truth. Missler writes that it was in the fifth century it flourished which is probably true, but we see it started way before. We see in 1 Timothy 4:1-3 and what Jesus said about the Nicolaitans in Revelation.
Augustine did support the Sethite and Cainite view of Gen. 6 teaching, he also brought in other teachings.
We should deliberate; whether it is philosophy, the love of wisdom, or truth, that is in the scriptures unveiled by the Spirit of Truth to eyes and ears open to see and hear it.
Thanks, and God bless,
RLW
Isaiah 11:6 The WOLF ALSO SHALL DWELL WITH THE LAMB ....
Hebrews 2:8 ...we see NOT YET ALL THINGS PUT UNDER HIM .....
1 Timothy 4:10 ...who is the saviour of ALL MEN (sheep and wolves), specially those that believe (sheep).
Some of GODS WORDS TO MEDITATE ON
I agree with ever word you spoke in your comment.
I have a question, and would like your to meditate on that question?
All the scriptures you quoted about being born again now; instead of later, at the death of this body, were written 1900 years ago.
You were not born as of yet but your were already born again.
God always speaks as if it has already happen, in his eyes the works are finished.
Psalms 90:9 .....we spend our years as a tale that is (already) told.
Hebrews 4:3 ..... the works were finished from the foundations of the world.
1 Timothy 4:10 ....who is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially those that BELIEVE.
God Bless You!
Why is Romans 10:9 not a salvation message to the world? Christ, at some point in time, is going to raise all unbelievers back to their flesh.
Romans 10:9 If thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALL BE SAVED.
There is no time line defined in this verse ,as in this age we are now in, the feast of first fruits, there is still the age of the ingathering, the feast of tabernacles, yet to come.
No one is saved until they depart this body of mortal flesh, no one is born again until they depart this body of mortal flesh.
I Timothy 6:16 Who (Christ) ONLY hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the LIGHT which no man can approach unto ......
1 Corinthians 15:53 ....this mortal (at the death of this body) SHALL PUT ON IMMORTALITY ......
1 Corinthians 15:49 A we bear have borne the image of the earthly (mortal), we shall also SHALL bear the image of the heavenly --- IMMORTALITY --- Christ ONLY hath immortality ----
But God giveth IT (the new creation, born a second time) a BODY as it has pleased him, and to ever SEED his OWN BODY ----Christ is the BODY of the FATHER ----
Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they ARE CREATED (the second birth, upon the death of this mortal body): and thou renewest the face of the earth ---- Revelations 21:5 ....I make all things new .....
Isaiah 45:23 ....every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess ....
Romans 14:11 ....every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess ....
Romans 10:9 That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the grave, THOU SHALL BE SAVE.
Romans 10:10 ..... and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 Timothy 4:10 .....who is SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially those that believe.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these thing happen FOR ENSAMPLES; and they are written for OUR ADMONITION .....
God Bless You as we come to TRUTH
Matthew 12:34 states that "out of the abundance of the heart; the mouth speaketh." Isaiah 8:20 speaking about those who are false Prophets says "to the word and the testimony". They are said if not to speak the truth to have "no light of the dawn". Contrast this with Revelation 12:11 where the word of their testimony of the Tribulation martyrs indicates that they "loved not their lives unto the death." With today's churches having doctrines as skewed as they are we aren't safe to assume that occultic demonic "doctrines of demons" haven't already infected many congregations as 1 Timothy 4:1 warns. But for the remainder of this discussion I will assume that at least a respectable version of the scriptures is being preached in the churches I am examining here.
The Lord stated how "a little leaven ruins the whole loaf". ( Galatians 5:9 and other verses). No one is going to offer arsenic with a little inert ingredient to temper the flavor as an appetizer; but if being devious will put a little poison in something that is tasty. Satan won't come along saying that he is a deceiver; liar and murdurer and by the way wouldn't you like to join my cause? Admittedly there are a few who are sadistic enough to play the fiddle with the Devil as it were with some fantasy that they are so vile that they can command the Devil what to do; and there are some who despite knowing his nature think that Satan won't grind them into powder as was requested by Satan to Christ in the case of Peter.
The greatest danger; therefore lies when sin enters within the tent; the congregation of meeting and scripture is mixed in to instill false confidence in one's spiritual standing; or twisted to justify what eventually becomes a festering cancer after initially being toyed with by a few in idle conversation. There is also the ever present danger of trying to justify a doctrine; either true or false by turning literal scriptures to figurative.
This topic about secured (or not) salvation has been discussed a lot between us here on this forum in the past. Beliefs differ. Mine is that salvation can be lost if one leaves God's path and starts following a foreign path and eventually dies in their sin. In my opinion there are many verses in the Bible that state that. One I have gone through recently is in 1 Timothy 4:15-16, (Paul advices Timothy) "Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: FOR IN DOING THIS THOU SHALT BOTH SAVE THYSELF, and them that hear thee." Why does Paul say to Timothy that by doing those he WILL save himself, isn't Timothy saved already (by been born again)? Yes but he has to keep his salvation by doing specific things, like obeying and properly teaching God's path(commadments). And the outcome of his life's strives to walk the narrow road will be the final salvation, the crown of righteouness, the crown of victory. A lot more can be said. GBU
These verses are in context and contradict what you are claiming, but even though they're in context and you just click or hover over it to read the whole chapter or book you just dismissed it as not being in context.
I noticed your response didn't have any Bible verses supporting your view.
I believe in and stand by Jesus's words. It sounds like you're accusing Jesus of being about "works." You do so at your own risk. I will not be ashamed for believing in what Jesus says, even if people use all kinds of tricks to attack.
Jesus: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15
You: No, don't obey, because that's works.
Is that really your position that it's "bad" to obey Jesus, and "good" to not obey Jesus?
If so, that sounds exactly like something satan would say. Such a clever deception to get people to believe its somehow bad to do good and good to do bad. As if God wants people to disobey Him!?
Also I noticed you used the same straw man argument everyone else has been taught to use that if you want to follow Jesus then automatically you're trying to work towards heaven and there's no other possibility. I already said we're saved by grace, which seemed to be ignored. Of course I already answered this fallacy in advance, but maybe you didn't read it or did and claimed this fallacy anyway. Anyway, I feel a moral obligation to counter the lies on here and anyone claiming that its bad to follow and bad to obey Jesus is just is not speaking the truth. The Bible warns Christians of this throughout scripture.
Matthew 7:21-23
Hebrews 10:26
Hebrews 6:4-6
James 2:14-26
Matthew 12:31-32
Romans 14:12
1 Peter 1:5
1 Cor 9:24-27
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:5-18
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Peter 2:20-22
Hebrews 3:12
Galatians 5:4
1 Corinthians 15:2-8