Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3Ephesians 6:231 Thessalonians 1:12 Timothy 1:2Titus 1:42 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
Thank you, you are correct I believe in one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as most of the greetings in the epistles Ephesians 6:231 Thessalonians 1:1 and more, and nowhere is this doctrine taught in the New Testament that we must believe for salvation.
It is like Matthew 28:19 the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved. My study of 1 John 5:7 is that it was added from the Latin Vulgate and was not in the original text, but that can be debated.
I understand I am in the minority and have discussed this before. We can find Scripture to fit a doctrine, but can we find Scripture where the doctrine was taught? I have not found where the Trinity doctrine is taught. Like Genesis 1:26 there are many beings in heaven and the word us does not say God was speaking to Jesus, that is an assumption.
Thank you again for discussing this in a loving and respectful manor, this subject is deep and as long as we have love for each other, and truth is what we are in search of.
Hi Cheryl1655. The passage you read in Revelation 21:1-3 about the new heaven (sky) & new Earth and then the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven, are events (including those in Revelation 22) that will take place right at the very end of earthly time as we know it. This account shows us the end of Satan & his influence on mankind, the end of sin & corruption, & the arrival of a complete renewal of God's original creation, with God in the midst. These are glorious visions which the Apostle John received from Jesus for those end times, and sadly the vision of all those who have rejected Jesus & loved to live in sin, hating the God of Heaven, these will go into punishment of everlasting fire ( Revelation 21:8).
"The meeting in the sky" is what I believe you're referring to as the Rapture, or 'the snatching away' (Latin, 'rapio'; Greek, 'harpazo'), and this is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which the Apostle Paul's was teaching to those Churches. Now this event (the Rapture) is a subject that has a whole range of views & beliefs amongst Christians, as we piece together what information we're given in the Bible, figuring the how, when, where, this occurs (or, likely to occur). However, to answer your question, my understanding of the Scriptures is that the Rapture ('the lifting up of the living & dead in Christ & meeting Jesus in the sky') is the next great event in God's 'calendar', where His saved, holy ones are removed from the Earth before His Wrath is poured upon the Earth of unbelievers (otherwise called, the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath (see Matthew chapter 24)). See also 1 Thessalonians 1:10 & 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10.
However one views this 'snatching away' & the Day of God's Wrath upon the Earth, the message to those IN CHRIST is clear: BE READY, Live lives pleasing to the Lord, that we may "not be ashamed before Him at His Coming" ( 1 John 2:28,29). GBU.
This is my favorite scripture because, you can dig into this scripture really deeply! James 1:19-20 is literally the main learning point of the old saying "God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason", we should should use our ears to listen and learn and when we gain wisdom through this we can then use that wisdom to teach through our mouths; Cross References= Proverbs 17:27 and Proverbs 14:29! James 1:21-24 goes to show that we should lay aside all disobedience and defiance, read the word and live it; Romans 2:13, Jeremiah 44:16, and 1 Thessalonians 1:5!
"4 And my(Paul's) speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, BUT IN DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER: 5 That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, BUT in the power of God."
How many preachers can say that? I hear people saying that we don't need miracles any more, those were for those early times, just preaching is enough. I don't think Paul would agree with that.
1 Thessalonians 1:5,
"For our gospel came not unto you in word ONLY, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."
Hello, I agree with brother Chris that verse 9 and 10 are communicating the message of the living and true God and those who once served idols can now serve by the power of the Holy Ghost vs 5, the one who came from heaven, the Son, who was raised from the dead, delivered us by faith vs 3 from the wrath to come, even Jesus.
Hello Cheryl1655. I think you might have misread that verse. Going back to the previous verse (v9), the Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians there, that after the Gospel came to them, they turned from serving idols to serve the Living God. And not just that, but (in v10), that they now awaited expectantly for Jesus' Return (God's Son coming from Heaven), this Jesus, Whom God had ALREADY raised from the dead, & would deliver them from the wrath to come (of everyday tribulations & the Great Tribulation that is yet to come). So Jesus who had died & rose from the grave, God will one day send Him back to deliver them & us. I hope that clarifies this verse for you.
You might note in all of my comments where I speak about the Nature of Salvation, I always stress that Christ does 100% of the Work in saving those whom He saves and that Salvation is by Grace Alone. There is a reason for this.
We must start with the very clear statement of Romans 3:10-18 that ALL of mankind is Spiritually DEAD and will never exercise "faith in God"or "believe on Christ" in a way that is pleasing to God, despite the fact that we are COMMANDED to do so.
Our Faith and Our Belief (one is the verb the other is the noun) are Works that we do ( 1 Thessalonians 1:3). And the Bible is crystal clear that our works can never save us. So we are not saved by God's Grace and Our Faith. We are saved by God's Grace Alone. Our Faith and Our Belief are the RESULT of our Salvation. They are not a CAUSE nor a BASIS for our Salvation.
Unfortunately, if you go into virtually any church today you will be presented with some form of a Works-Grace gospel. And this is one reason why I believe that 1 Pet 4:17 and other related passages are in play today. And this is very sad to say.
Thanks Tammy. Yes 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 is very important. You're correct that Paul gives them insight when the Day of Christ will begin. The Thessalonians feared that it had already begun, being troubled by false teachers, that they were in it already (because of 2 Thessalonians 1:4) & the Lord had not yet come (even as Paul had earlier spoken to them about "these things" (v5)). So again, Paul had to rehearse these matters with them to assure & comfort them to pay heed to him & not others, that they had not missed out on Christ's coming, "and by our gathering together unto him".
That there has to first be a departure from the faith (an apostasy); I understand this to be the general deterioration within the Church (as we even see now with the preaching of error & the Church, which ought to be seen as the Light & Body of Christ, has become in many places, a haven for Satan to have his way & lead many devout earnest people happily into hell's pit). And after this will be the revelation of the anti-Christ.
Is it at this point (mid-trib) that you believe the world, including the Church will go into the Great Tribulation & come under the anti-Christ? Or, could it be that this is at the very beginning of the Day of Christ, where the Great Tribulation is about to begin but first there will be the "falling away & the revelation of the man of sin"? If, as I believe, the Gt. Tribulation is the tribulation from God (His Wrath & not man's daily tribulations), then I understand Paul stating to the believers there, 'the rapture will happen first at the introduction of the man of sin & then God's Wrath - so don't be misled that that day has already started.'
Before the Wrath (the Great Tribulation) must come the rapture - the anti-Christ is revealed because God has allowed it by removing His Restrainer - and if His Wrath is to be poured out on unbelievers, where is His Church, the one which was not appointed to receive His Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
Who are those who are left? ( Mt 24:40-41) and ( Luke 17:34-36) Tell us "one shall be taken, and the other "left" ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10) Tells us "which (delivered) us from the wrath to come" The word (delivered) is #4506; it means to rush or draw (for oneself) rescue. So True Believers are (delivered) or (rescued) (saved) from the wrath to come! The True Believers are the ones taken, the ones left will face the wrath to come. ( Jn 3:36) Tells us He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life (those taken), and those who believeth not the Son the wrath of God abideth on him (those left). ( Romans 5:9) Tell us we are (saved) from wrath through him. The word (saved) is #4982; it means "safe" to save, i.e. deliver or protect. The same meaning as the word (body) in ( Luke 17:37) Which are those who are (taken) (saved) from the wrath to come, they are the (body) of Christ. ( Romans 1:18) The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteous of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. ( Col 3:6) "the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience" ( Eph 5:6) "because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience" The word (disobedience) is #543; it means to disbelieve (willfully and perversely) not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. (These unbelievers will be the ((ones left)) to face the wrath of God) As for True Believers? ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed (us) to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". Believers will be (saved) (delivered) (rescued) from the wrath to come. He will receive True Believers unto Himself. The word (taken) means to receive near. ( John 14:3) Tells us "I will come again, and receive you unto myself". The ones (taken) are saved from the wrath to come! The ones (left) the wrath of God abideth on them! ( Mt 24:29-31) clearly tells us (when) this event takes place. (Immediately after the tribulation) Truth matters. Blessings.
Thanks brother Jesse for that extra information from Joel & how we should understand the last days. After reading your comment, my thoughts also turned to Hebrews 1:1,2, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath IN THESE LAST DAYS spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds...".
Here, the distinction is also made clear: there were the old days when God spoke to HIS people through the mouths of His prophets, but now in "these last days" (i.e. the whole period from Jesus' first Coming & ministering to His people, as the Word of (& from) God made flesh, till He comes again). And when He comes again, it will be for HIS Church (the great assembly of saved Jew & Gentile). When the prophets of old spoke as 'thus & thus saith the LORD', Israel held them in disdain & rejected God's warnings, resulting in them being sent away into exilic chastisement. But in these last days, those who've taken heed & believed in God's Words, even in Jesus His Son, will also be taken away, not to chastisement & His Wrath as disobedient Israel received, but to Himself, as we "wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10). Thanks again Jesse & every blessing.
d. the revelation of the anti-Christ is restrained ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Paul's reason for writing this was because the Church was greatly troubled that the Day of the Lord (Christ) had begun. Paul said that that day wouldn't commence until Jesus came for them & raptured them ("our gathering together unto him": v1). The 'restrainer' is the Holy Spirit in God's people, then when He is removed, God's people are removed, for the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell us & work in & through us & for the Gospel's propagation ( John 16:7,8,13).
e. a comparison between an imminent Rapture & Rapture at the Second Coming:
1. Translation of all believers ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) --- No translation at all ( Revelation 19:6-21).
2. Raptured saints return to Heaven ( 1 Thessalonians 4:17; John 14:1-3) --- Raptured saints return to Earth ( 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Revelation 19:14).
3. Any moment, in readiness, without signs ( 1 Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:7-9; Revelation 3:11, 22:7,12,20) --- many signs given of the Great Tribulation which leads into Jesus' coming (so a readiness cannot be expected, as the seven year's count down begins with the anti-Christ).
A Pre-Tribulation Rapture position keeps the Church ready & watching for her Lord's Coming. Any other position can give her the tendency to apathy & carelessness. The Church is told to be watchful, in spite of ridicule, "where is the promise of his coming" ( 2 Peter 3:4). But Christ's coming is held back until the full number are saved (v9) - and then Jesus will come to take His Church Home.
Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.
Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:
a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).
c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come to You in the name of Jesus today and ask that You will bring Robert through this surgery with success and a full recovery. We as that You keep Robert safe and sound during and after this surgery without complications or any downturns in his recovery. We ask You Father, to relieve any pain Robert has post-surgery and that the problem that led to needing surgery is completely resolved. Amen.
Thanks 'Prosperity'. To answer your three questions:
a. Romans 9:3-5. Paul says what he did in this portion because he was speaking about his brethren by blood, i.e. Israel - not brethren by faith in Christ. Here in these chapters, Paul is relating what the Jews should have gained, if they had accepted Christ, but had lost their position because they wanted to hold to the Law & not come to Christ (which can only be by faith). So the Roman believers, & there could have been believing Jews amongst them as well, needed to hear this message that salvation has come to them because of the "fall" of the Jews & acceptance by God of Jew & Gentile through His Son.
b. Romans was written to believers in Rome ( Romans 1:6-8); the Corinthian Epistles to the Church/saints at Corinth ( 1 Corinthians 1:2); Ephesians to the saints in Ephesus ( Ephesians 1:1); and the Thessalonian Epistles to the Church in Thessalonica ( 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4). So, in the Churches there would have been the Jewish diaspora as well as Gentiles, and together Paul considered them as the Church, the beloved of God.
c. I see no problem with the content of Paul's letters to the largely Gentile Churches there. It's as if I preached in a Pakistani Church of what God was doing in Pakistan among Muslims, also about believers living the Spirit-filled life, & the need to share their faith, & also that my heart continued to be for the salvation of Muslims. Would I be wrong to share that so that the Church might be informed & encouraged to pray? So Paul was sharing with the Roman Church that one day all Israel will bend their knee to Jesus & be saved. Shouldn't the Gentiles rejoice in this wonderful time of salvation of the Jews, through whom the Lord Jesus came & ministered to? But if any today in the Church despise Israel, then maybe, yes, they could take umbrage to such news.
For the truth sake which dwelleth in us for ever Grace be with me Marcy and peace from God the father and from the LORD Jesus Christ the son of the father in truth and love l rejoiced greatly that I found of the children walking in truth as we have received a commandment from the father
And this is love that i walk after this commandment this is the commandment that as ye have heard from the beginning ye should walk in it for many deceivers one entered into the warld who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh this is a deceiver and an antichrist looks to your selves that we lose not those things which we have wrought but that we receive a full reward
Judas Iscariot, with the other eleven, were never apostles while they travelled around with Jesus. They were called Disciples (i.e. a student, a follower of a Rabbi or teacher). They were only known as Apostles after Jesus died, arose from the grave, & He sent them out into the world. Apostle, means 'one sent out; a messenger'.
After Judas Iscariot died, Matthias was appointed as his replacement & this appointment was from God ( Acts 1:24-26, i.e. the eleven prayed asking God to direct them to this new disciple). So, men did not choose Matthias, God did by their casting of lots. And this had to be, as Peter declared, by referring to the fulfilment of Psalm 41:9; Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8.
True, we don't hear of Matthias, but the lack of information doesn't mean that he just disappeared & went back to his occupation, or whatever else. We don't hear again of several of the other disciples either after Acts 1:13.
Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ. As was Apostle Barnabas ( Acts 14:14), James (the Lord's half-brother; Galatians 1:19), possibly Timothy & Silas ( 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 1 Thessalonians 2:6, if Paul was using 'we' to refer to them as apostles as well). And Paul often had to emphasize his apostleship to the Churches, & even defend it, as believers were being seduced to believe otherwise (as much of 2nd Corinthians indicate).
So, from what we read in the Scriptures, Matthias was the twelfth disciple, being an apostle, & subsequently, Paul & others were either called by the Lord to apostleship, or considered as apostles because of their ministry of getting the Gospel out.
The physical body is here until the rapture (after death). The Spirit of the born again are with Christ. I'm not sure why some seek to complication this simple Biblical truth.
You will not find it in the Word of God, because at the last trump sound, the dead in Christ shall rise first. Now if Christians went to heaven when they die then it would not be any to "RISE". Another little point: why would God take you on to heaven just to pull you back out again on judgement day? The KJV states that everyone will be judged according to their works whether good or bad. Always take the Word of God over any man or women out here. If it's not in his Word, then it's not true! You have a blessed day.
I agree with your pastor. At the point of our physical death (And by the way, the word death means separation), but at the point of physical death, our physical body will be buried in the ground and will await the resurrection, and that's when our spirit will reunite with our risen body that has been changed from a corruptible body to an incorruptible glorified body.
Again, the word death means separation. When we die (physically), our spirit will depart our body to go to be immediately with the Lord. The word sleep or sleeping in the bible refers to physical death (See the story of Lazarus). When our body dies and is lying in the grave, and if you ever been to a funeral viewing, the dead body that is lying in the coffin looks like it is sleeping. But the spirit of that person is very much alive.
Ask yourself, where is their spirit? If their spirit has separated their body, where did their spirit go. If that person has the Spirit of Christ in them, where is Christ's Spirit right now? Definitely not in the grave!
Again, I believe your pastor is correct in his teaching about this part. I cannot speak to everything else he teaches, as I do not know your pastor. However, if you believe you are being misled by your pastor, or that he is spreading false teaching, I would encourage you to seek another church.
Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17 Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 2 Timothy 1:2 Titus 1:4 2 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you, you are correct I believe in one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as most of the greetings in the epistles Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 and more, and nowhere is this doctrine taught in the New Testament that we must believe for salvation.
It is like Matthew 28:19 the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved. My study of 1 John 5:7 is that it was added from the Latin Vulgate and was not in the original text, but that can be debated.
I understand I am in the minority and have discussed this before. We can find Scripture to fit a doctrine, but can we find Scripture where the doctrine was taught? I have not found where the Trinity doctrine is taught. Like Genesis 1:26 there are many beings in heaven and the word us does not say God was speaking to Jesus, that is an assumption.
Thank you again for discussing this in a loving and respectful manor, this subject is deep and as long as we have love for each other, and truth is what we are in search of.
God bless,
RLW
"The meeting in the sky" is what I believe you're referring to as the Rapture, or 'the snatching away' (Latin, 'rapio'; Greek, 'harpazo'), and this is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which the Apostle Paul's was teaching to those Churches. Now this event (the Rapture) is a subject that has a whole range of views & beliefs amongst Christians, as we piece together what information we're given in the Bible, figuring the how, when, where, this occurs (or, likely to occur). However, to answer your question, my understanding of the Scriptures is that the Rapture ('the lifting up of the living & dead in Christ & meeting Jesus in the sky') is the next great event in God's 'calendar', where His saved, holy ones are removed from the Earth before His Wrath is poured upon the Earth of unbelievers (otherwise called, the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath (see Matthew chapter 24)). See also 1 Thessalonians 1:10 & 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10.
However one views this 'snatching away' & the Day of God's Wrath upon the Earth, the message to those IN CHRIST is clear: BE READY, Live lives pleasing to the Lord, that we may "not be ashamed before Him at His Coming" ( 1 John 2:28,29). GBU.
This is my favorite scripture because, you can dig into this scripture really deeply! James 1:19-20 is literally the main learning point of the old saying "God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason", we should should use our ears to listen and learn and when we gain wisdom through this we can then use that wisdom to teach through our mouths; Cross References= Proverbs 17:27 and Proverbs 14:29! James 1:21-24 goes to show that we should lay aside all disobedience and defiance, read the word and live it; Romans 2:13, Jeremiah 44:16, and 1 Thessalonians 1:5!
"4 And my(Paul's) speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, BUT IN DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER: 5 That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, BUT in the power of God."
How many preachers can say that? I hear people saying that we don't need miracles any more, those were for those early times, just preaching is enough. I don't think Paul would agree with that.
1 Thessalonians 1:5,
"For our gospel came not unto you in word ONLY, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."
10Waiting for his Son from heaven, who came back from the dead, even Jesus, our Saviour from the wrath to come.
DNT
10and to await his Son from the heavens, whom he raised from among the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath.
These alternate translations might be a little clearer, yet I still prefer the KJV rendition.
Blessings!
You might note in all of my comments where I speak about the Nature of Salvation, I always stress that Christ does 100% of the Work in saving those whom He saves and that Salvation is by Grace Alone. There is a reason for this.
We must start with the very clear statement of Romans 3:10-18 that ALL of mankind is Spiritually DEAD and will never exercise "faith in God"or "believe on Christ" in a way that is pleasing to God, despite the fact that we are COMMANDED to do so.
Our Faith and Our Belief (one is the verb the other is the noun) are Works that we do ( 1 Thessalonians 1:3). And the Bible is crystal clear that our works can never save us. So we are not saved by God's Grace and Our Faith. We are saved by God's Grace Alone. Our Faith and Our Belief are the RESULT of our Salvation. They are not a CAUSE nor a BASIS for our Salvation.
Unfortunately, if you go into virtually any church today you will be presented with some form of a Works-Grace gospel. And this is one reason why I believe that 1 Pet 4:17 and other related passages are in play today. And this is very sad to say.
That there has to first be a departure from the faith (an apostasy); I understand this to be the general deterioration within the Church (as we even see now with the preaching of error & the Church, which ought to be seen as the Light & Body of Christ, has become in many places, a haven for Satan to have his way & lead many devout earnest people happily into hell's pit). And after this will be the revelation of the anti-Christ.
Is it at this point (mid-trib) that you believe the world, including the Church will go into the Great Tribulation & come under the anti-Christ? Or, could it be that this is at the very beginning of the Day of Christ, where the Great Tribulation is about to begin but first there will be the "falling away & the revelation of the man of sin"? If, as I believe, the Gt. Tribulation is the tribulation from God (His Wrath & not man's daily tribulations), then I understand Paul stating to the believers there, 'the rapture will happen first at the introduction of the man of sin & then God's Wrath - so don't be misled that that day has already started.'
Before the Wrath (the Great Tribulation) must come the rapture - the anti-Christ is revealed because God has allowed it by removing His Restrainer - and if His Wrath is to be poured out on unbelievers, where is His Church, the one which was not appointed to receive His Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)?
Here, the distinction is also made clear: there were the old days when God spoke to HIS people through the mouths of His prophets, but now in "these last days" (i.e. the whole period from Jesus' first Coming & ministering to His people, as the Word of (& from) God made flesh, till He comes again). And when He comes again, it will be for HIS Church (the great assembly of saved Jew & Gentile). When the prophets of old spoke as 'thus & thus saith the LORD', Israel held them in disdain & rejected God's warnings, resulting in them being sent away into exilic chastisement. But in these last days, those who've taken heed & believed in God's Words, even in Jesus His Son, will also be taken away, not to chastisement & His Wrath as disobedient Israel received, but to Himself, as we "wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" ( 1 Thessalonians 1:10). Thanks again Jesse & every blessing.
d. the revelation of the anti-Christ is restrained ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Paul's reason for writing this was because the Church was greatly troubled that the Day of the Lord (Christ) had begun. Paul said that that day wouldn't commence until Jesus came for them & raptured them ("our gathering together unto him": v1). The 'restrainer' is the Holy Spirit in God's people, then when He is removed, God's people are removed, for the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell us & work in & through us & for the Gospel's propagation ( John 16:7,8,13).
e. a comparison between an imminent Rapture & Rapture at the Second Coming:
1. Translation of all believers ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) --- No translation at all ( Revelation 19:6-21).
2. Raptured saints return to Heaven ( 1 Thessalonians 4:17; John 14:1-3) --- Raptured saints return to Earth ( 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Revelation 19:14).
3. Any moment, in readiness, without signs ( 1 Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:7-9; Revelation 3:11, 22:7,12,20) --- many signs given of the Great Tribulation which leads into Jesus' coming (so a readiness cannot be expected, as the seven year's count down begins with the anti-Christ).
A Pre-Tribulation Rapture position keeps the Church ready & watching for her Lord's Coming. Any other position can give her the tendency to apathy & carelessness. The Church is told to be watchful, in spite of ridicule, "where is the promise of his coming" ( 2 Peter 3:4). But Christ's coming is held back until the full number are saved (v9) - and then Jesus will come to take His Church Home.
Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.
Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:
a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).
c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come to You in the name of Jesus today and ask that You will bring Robert through this surgery with success and a full recovery. We as that You keep Robert safe and sound during and after this surgery without complications or any downturns in his recovery. We ask You Father, to relieve any pain Robert has post-surgery and that the problem that led to needing surgery is completely resolved. Amen.
a. Romans 9:3-5. Paul says what he did in this portion because he was speaking about his brethren by blood, i.e. Israel - not brethren by faith in Christ. Here in these chapters, Paul is relating what the Jews should have gained, if they had accepted Christ, but had lost their position because they wanted to hold to the Law & not come to Christ (which can only be by faith). So the Roman believers, & there could have been believing Jews amongst them as well, needed to hear this message that salvation has come to them because of the "fall" of the Jews & acceptance by God of Jew & Gentile through His Son.
b. Romans was written to believers in Rome ( Romans 1:6-8); the Corinthian Epistles to the Church/saints at Corinth ( 1 Corinthians 1:2); Ephesians to the saints in Ephesus ( Ephesians 1:1); and the Thessalonian Epistles to the Church in Thessalonica ( 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4). So, in the Churches there would have been the Jewish diaspora as well as Gentiles, and together Paul considered them as the Church, the beloved of God.
c. I see no problem with the content of Paul's letters to the largely Gentile Churches there. It's as if I preached in a Pakistani Church of what God was doing in Pakistan among Muslims, also about believers living the Spirit-filled life, & the need to share their faith, & also that my heart continued to be for the salvation of Muslims. Would I be wrong to share that so that the Church might be informed & encouraged to pray? So Paul was sharing with the Roman Church that one day all Israel will bend their knee to Jesus & be saved. Shouldn't the Gentiles rejoice in this wonderful time of salvation of the Jews, through whom the Lord Jesus came & ministered to? But if any today in the Church despise Israel, then maybe, yes, they could take umbrage to such news.
The word, "receive," and "Holy Spirit" are never found in the same verse in the KJV.
On the other hand, "receive/received" and "Holy Ghost" are found here:
John 7:39
John 20:22
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:33
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:21
Acts 8:15
Acts 8:17
Acts 8:19
Acts 9:17
Acts 10:47
Acts 19:2 ("Holy Ghost" is mentioned twice here.)
1 Thessalonians 1:6
Anything we can learn from this?
Judas Iscariot, with the other eleven, were never apostles while they travelled around with Jesus. They were called Disciples (i.e. a student, a follower of a Rabbi or teacher). They were only known as Apostles after Jesus died, arose from the grave, & He sent them out into the world. Apostle, means 'one sent out; a messenger'.
After Judas Iscariot died, Matthias was appointed as his replacement & this appointment was from God ( Acts 1:24-26, i.e. the eleven prayed asking God to direct them to this new disciple). So, men did not choose Matthias, God did by their casting of lots. And this had to be, as Peter declared, by referring to the fulfilment of Psalm 41:9; Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8.
True, we don't hear of Matthias, but the lack of information doesn't mean that he just disappeared & went back to his occupation, or whatever else. We don't hear again of several of the other disciples either after Acts 1:13.
Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ. As was Apostle Barnabas ( Acts 14:14), James (the Lord's half-brother; Galatians 1:19), possibly Timothy & Silas ( 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 1 Thessalonians 2:6, if Paul was using 'we' to refer to them as apostles as well). And Paul often had to emphasize his apostleship to the Churches, & even defend it, as believers were being seduced to believe otherwise (as much of 2nd Corinthians indicate).
So, from what we read in the Scriptures, Matthias was the twelfth disciple, being an apostle, & subsequently, Paul & others were either called by the Lord to apostleship, or considered as apostles because of their ministry of getting the Gospel out.
First-century Christians expressed joy when they learned that fellow believers were enduring in their faith. ( 1 Thessalonians 1:2, 3; 3 John 3, 4)
Does it seem reasonable that the Bible would stress faithful endurance if those who did not endure would be saved anyway?
I agree with your pastor. At the point of our physical death (And by the way, the word death means separation), but at the point of physical death, our physical body will be buried in the ground and will await the resurrection, and that's when our spirit will reunite with our risen body that has been changed from a corruptible body to an incorruptible glorified body.
Again, the word death means separation. When we die (physically), our spirit will depart our body to go to be immediately with the Lord. The word sleep or sleeping in the bible refers to physical death (See the story of Lazarus). When our body dies and is lying in the grave, and if you ever been to a funeral viewing, the dead body that is lying in the coffin looks like it is sleeping. But the spirit of that person is very much alive.
Ask yourself, where is their spirit? If their spirit has separated their body, where did their spirit go. If that person has the Spirit of Christ in them, where is Christ's Spirit right now? Definitely not in the grave!
Again, I believe your pastor is correct in his teaching about this part. I cannot speak to everything else he teaches, as I do not know your pastor. However, if you believe you are being misled by your pastor, or that he is spreading false teaching, I would encourage you to seek another church.