Hi Rob, I'd you truly believe we're blind and you're not, and you say we will never see it until we're saved, Why are you giving us all your time on the trinity doctrine that can't help us, Spend your time on teaching/Preaching the Gospel that open eyes and save lives, Isn't that's what you're called to do?
The answer to your question is there in Genesis 1:3: "And God SAID". Out of God, came forth His WORD in speech, to create Light. The question is: how does this WORD fit into the Being of God? Is the WORD a part of God as His Spirit is? Or do you see some differentiation? I see that God, His Word & His Spirit are infused as One, indivisible & completely of Spirit Being (not of flesh). Therefore, if that Word, which was from the beginning, with God & was God ( Jn 1:1), was specially sent to this World clothed with flesh to bring God's Word to His people & ultimately to lay down His Life for them & us, then Who are we speaking about?
So to specifically answer your question: "Who spoke it God or Jesus?" It was God through Jesus, the pre-incarnate Word of God - the Word uttered by God. Then when Jesus, God's Word, came to this Earth, God no longer spoke to His people as He did before, but now "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he MADE the worlds" ( Hebrews 1:2). Made the worlds? Yes, His Word that was uttered in Genesis 1 was engaged in God's creative Work ( Colossians 1:15-17).
And No, this is not RCC doctrine - we hold fully to the Bible, to apostolic teaching & the beliefs held by the early Church.
Just to add: I liken the 'cloven tongues as of fire' that descended on the apostles as a witness to those around of this first instance of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon men. This was similar to the descent of the Holy Spirit on Jesus at the time of John's baptism in the form of a dove ( John 1:32), as a witness to John & those around. However, at Pentecost, there was a double witness, in that it was not only a visible sight of the Spirit's anointing, but a verbal witness as the Spirit gave them utterance to speak unlearned languages.
But bear in mind that the fire & the dove that describes the Spirit's anointing should not be seen as actual fire or an actual dove, but merely a description of God's presentation to people there. In fact, a dove could not be used by God, as that would depict God in animal form, which amounts to idolatry & breaking of the second commandment.
Alex, no solomon doesn't mean comforter it means peaceful. and God didn't tell Moses his name was Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Moses asked him and he said I Am that I Am.. I think you're trying to hard to give the Holyspirit a future birthday, you're answering multiple questions that has no connection with one another with the same quote. I'm beginning to believe you're copying and pasting these answers desperately to push your views. This site should be about virtue and spiritual growth, not a personal agenda, atleast try helping someone by answering one of there questions and show you care.
The Bible gives us the way of decerning spirits . Found in the epistles of John . It's determined by knowing who precisely Jesus is . Otherwise it's the wrong Jesus and of the spirit of anti christ , this makes no sense to an anti christ because they can not see their error . It's for the true believers. The blind will always be blind . I marvel at how blind many are . I can't open their eyes to see until they are born again . The whole trinity doctrine is a man made version that really does not work . But for the blind they think so . It's just pagan to me . And of the spirit of anti christ when tested by real decernment .
I do not consider the trinity doctrine Christian , but a RCC doctrine that developed 300 plus years after the real church began . I have heard all of it and never was convinced when careful study of the word is gone . You may claim to be RRC if you like . But to me the doctrine is damning . And not Christian .
The cloven tongues like as a fire is a special work of God at his discretion which means that every time someone gets born again does not mean their going to see cloven tongues but it is available for any believer to speak in tongues which is why the apostle paul said he spoke in tongues more than the entire corinthian church. Another example of phenomenon is moses and the burning bush. Gideon and the dew on the ram moses rod turning into a snake, the prepose being to get attention to help the person believe.
Thanks Chris, That is the simplest way to get to the source of this debate I've heard. I think we also with our finite minds we look at the word son and we associate it with what we know in relationship to that word whether biologically or adoption in view of rank, but in the spiritual we have limited knowledge and full understanding of words and quotes like manifested, "In the fathers bosom" "I the beginning was the word" now if you associate that with Alfa and Omega you know that he has no beginning. "Me and my father are one" "Thought it not robbery to be equal with God" " You seen me you've seen the father " many many other Quotes. and these are by the Author of the inspired scripture not the reader. How do you debate and quarrel with the reader. Its funny how both views have no problem accepting the Holyspirit as a devine being just by one word. "HE" but quarrel over the volume of the book expressing the diety of Chist. The answer to the question doesn't bring you salvation.
Comments by Alex about Isaiah 11 Isaiah said there shall come a rod outta of the stem of Jesse which was David the Son and a branch shall grow out of his roots which was Solomon the Granson .And God wd not let David the son build that great temple He wd only let Solomon the Granson build the Temple And Solomon means Comforter as the H.G is the Comforter that is gona make our bodies his Temple as the scripture says our bodies are the temple of the H.G. Thus a greater then Solomon is here which is the H.G. the Comforter. And thus we see the Trinity as a Kingdom where the great king is the Granson the H.G THE COMFORTER A GREATER THEN Solomon that is gonna build a temple in Our hearts. Behold the Kingdom of God is with in you. k
Do you understand that God was before the creation of the world ? If you do then you would understand how the son of God Jesus has a special relationship.
You do not appear to understand . But that's why indoctrination is so bad people are mislead in the very basics .
Yes Jesus is the Son of God . No one ever could make this claim and God himself verified this . No further discussion needed . God was before the creation of the world , pretty simple .
I also believe Jesus Christ and God the Father to be two. Although one in each other. I do not see it ridiculous to say that. As Jesus Christ was born of a virgin conceived by the Holy Ghost. He is part God and part man like no other. No one comes to the Father but by Him. As I'm sure you know.
You can never be one with your wife as Christ is one with God. That is totally different. As Christ stating the words he spake are not of Himself but of the Father that dwelleth in Him. John 14:10 A husband and wife is not like that.
I'm not sure what you believe? Do you believe Jesus Christ was with God before the world was? As in:
John the baptist stating the Messiah existed before him John 1:15
The Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us as the only begotten of the Father John 1:14
Jesus stating "before Abraham was I am" John 8:58
Jesus stating the glory He had with the Father before the world was John 17:5
To Rob & Randy. Leaving aside Jesus the Son of God, as this is primarily where the problem of the 'Trinity' surfaces. How do you dear brothers, view the Person of the Holy Spirit? Who is He? Is He a separate God? Or a Force/Power of God? Or maybe One come out from God?
Why I ask this, is because your answer to this also defines who Jesus is, then & now. Thank you.
The word 'heart' is a strange word. As you know, we have it in normal English usage & we find it in the Bible as well. There's no specific meaning one can give to it; the best I can do, is to say that the word 'heart' is used when we want to describe someone's innermost being, expressed in the mind, the emotions or in spiritual matters. Just as one's soul & spirit are defined in the Bible & these are the immaterial parts of us, so to our 'heart' is immaterial & probably serves to describe the activity of soul and/or spirit.
The Bible is replete with references to the 'heart': Genesis 6:5,6; Genesis 17:17; Genesis 45:26; Jeremiah 17:9 are just a few examples of the ways that 'heart' is used in the Bible. So when I wrote, "fully convinced in our hearts", my thoughts were on the combination of our mental & emotional aspects, whereby we must firmly believe in mind & display of emotional strength, as we stand against any that should come against us.
As a sideline, the Bible also uses the word 'bowels'. This can refer to our bodily insides ( Genesis 15:4) but also refer to what we denote to the heart, except using the older English expression. So we have Genesis 43:30, Philemon 1:7 as a couple of examples of that. I trust you can see the use of the word 'heart' (& bowels) in Scripture.
As Christians we do believe in the triune God, throughout the NT Jesus and the apostles explain this, these are only a few bible verses to confirm this.
Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
1 John 5:10 "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son."
1 John 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."
If I may ask one question. Yes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I hope people reading the Bible know this as that is what Christ denotes Himself as. Also being one with the Father. The Father being in Him and He in the Father. As God is Spirit.
Do you believe we should honor the Son even as we honor the Father? Thank you.
Alex You may want to carefully go over the treads of other peoples comments, you and Chrs agreed water baptism doesn't saves, I thought he made that clear and did an excellent job communicating as usual.
You mentioned that we need to be fully clear & fully convinced in our hearts in what we believe. So what do you mean (or can you explain) the idea of "in our heart". I do not know what "Heart" means in terms of how the bible describes. I only really understand the heart as the physical muscle in the body. Otherwise the terminology of the heart is vague to me in the same sense that love and other words are just that...words but without a truly defined meaning. So would gladly appreciate what this means. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
The Trinity is very simply, Its FATHER ,SON AND GRANSON Just like Abraham Issac and Jacob, WITHOUT this father son and granson scenario there cd not be an Israel of God .Thats y he told Moses his name was Abraham ISSAC AND JACOB and my memorial to all generations impling an Israel of God is coming after the book is opened and the sower will go forth to sow his precious seed fulfilling that Promise that Christ will be multiplied as the stars of heaven ( an Israel of GOD ). But they are spirits as he said that which is born of the spirit is SPIRIT Thats the h.g the CHILDREN OF Promise, The Israel of God that are gonna be born in US sinners . And also Jesse David and Solomon were father son and granson But 1 kingdom. And here is the kicker Isaiah uses this Jesse David and Solomon kINGDOM as A TYPE OF THE kINGDOM COMING IN THE LAST DAYS. ISAIAH cd not be be refering to the natural Jesse David Solomon, they had been dead for aprox. 200 yrs. Isaiah was refering to the Father Son and H.G. TYPE OF KINGDOM COMING IN THE LAST DAYS. THE TRINITY, GODS KINGDOM HIS NAME FOREVER. Without a granson like Jacob there cd not be multiplIcation of Abrams ( CHRIST SEED ) and that was the great Promise which was the H.G the children of Promise. Via that new covenant. i.e. a baby Christ is gona be born in us via that GOOD seed. Thats y the woman is in travail and birth pains K
Comments by Alex about the blood of the lamb , Chris you do greatly err, if water cd have made us clean ( forgive us our sins ) then Christ shed his BLOOD IN VAIN ) AND THE CROSS was just foolishness , Even John who gave us water baptism told Jesus i have need to be baptised of you. He must increase but i must decrease, i.e water baptism had to decrease and H.G BAPTISM HAD TO INCREASE. REMEMBER Jesus told the woman at the well that drinking of Jacobs well ( water baptism ) wd not quench their thirst for Salvation , Only his living water which is baptism of the H.G WD quence their thirst for SALVATION AS Jesus describes that living water as a well of living water springing up unto everlasting life. John said that when Jesus spoke of water it was the H.G for the H.G WAS NOT YET GIVEN SIMPLY B/C that Jesus was not yet glorified. The point being when JESUS told that woman at the well of living water it was about baptism of the H.G. NOT WATER BAPTISM. JACOBS WATER K LEMME GO
Hi Danae, thank you for your interest in understanding more of God's Word. I see the key word in this portion of Scripture as 'conscience'. Peter refers to it in verse 16, where he states about having a good ('clear & clean') conscience. Another way of saying this, is that we need to be fully clear & fully convinced in our hearts in what we believe so that if anyone wants to dispute with us or even speak evil of us, our solid stand & clear testimony before them will be our strength & witness that we are truly changed.
In like manner, our 'good' conscience is what is important in respect to water baptism. As Noah was saved by water, so is the believer saved by water. But Peter qualifies that: it's not the act of immersion that 'saves' us, i.e. as if water baptism washed any of our sins away - No - water baptism doesn't take away sin or even give us a new birth (the Holy Spirit does that), but the act of baptism is for the sake of our conscience. We might rejoice when we first come to know Christ & experience His new birth in us. We might go on confidently in what has taken place in our lives, even share this with others. But Satan isn't far away to make us falter & doubt whether what has happened is of God or from our own desires. Especially when we fall into sin, it's so easy to start wondering about our salvation & we might even become spiritually weak because of it.
So Peter is saying that even though water baptism doesn't save us or clean us of our sin, what it does do, is to give us a physical testimony to others & ourselves, that God has performed a special work in us: that we are now testifying publicly to it & that this act will be a testimony to Satan whenever he taunts us with doubt & fear. So it just helps to keep us in focus, just as partaking at the Lord's Table does, when we remember Christ's death for us. So baptism comes first as we identify with Christ's death & resurrection into new Life & is a witness to all: ourselves & to the evil around us.
Going in another direction. I am reading 1st Peter 3 and I have a questions regarding verses 20-21. Specifically, I understand that the flood and the 8 men that were saved from the flood represented water baptism, but I do not completely understand the passage of: "baptism doth also save us...but the answer of a good conscience toward God...". Can you explain this section of verse 21.
"Now therefore swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me, nor with my son, nor with my son's son: but according to the kindness that I have done unto thee, thou shalt do unto me, and to the land wherein thou hast sojourned." .................AND I PRAY YOU GET OVER YOUR ILLNESS TO SLEEP WITH MOTHERS AND DAUGHTERS.......
So to specifically answer your question: "Who spoke it God or Jesus?" It was God through Jesus, the pre-incarnate Word of God - the Word uttered by God. Then when Jesus, God's Word, came to this Earth, God no longer spoke to His people as He did before, but now "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he MADE the worlds" ( Hebrews 1:2). Made the worlds? Yes, His Word that was uttered in Genesis 1 was engaged in God's creative Work ( Colossians 1:15-17).
And No, this is not RCC doctrine - we hold fully to the Bible, to apostolic teaching & the beliefs held by the early Church.
But bear in mind that the fire & the dove that describes the Spirit's anointing should not be seen as actual fire or an actual dove, but merely a description of God's presentation to people there. In fact, a dove could not be used by God, as that would depict God in animal form, which amounts to idolatry & breaking of the second commandment.
Who spoke it God or Jesus ?
The answer is so obvious.
You do not appear to understand . But that's why indoctrination is so bad people are mislead in the very basics .
Yes Jesus is the Son of God . No one ever could make this claim and God himself verified this . No further discussion needed . God was before the creation of the world , pretty simple .
You can never be one with your wife as Christ is one with God. That is totally different. As Christ stating the words he spake are not of Himself but of the Father that dwelleth in Him. John 14:10 A husband and wife is not like that.
I'm not sure what you believe? Do you believe Jesus Christ was with God before the world was? As in:
John the baptist stating the Messiah existed before him John 1:15
The Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us as the only begotten of the Father John 1:14
Jesus stating "before Abraham was I am" John 8:58
Jesus stating the glory He had with the Father before the world was John 17:5
Why I ask this, is because your answer to this also defines who Jesus is, then & now. Thank you.
The Bible is replete with references to the 'heart': Genesis 6:5,6; Genesis 17:17; Genesis 45:26; Jeremiah 17:9 are just a few examples of the ways that 'heart' is used in the Bible. So when I wrote, "fully convinced in our hearts", my thoughts were on the combination of our mental & emotional aspects, whereby we must firmly believe in mind & display of emotional strength, as we stand against any that should come against us.
As a sideline, the Bible also uses the word 'bowels'. This can refer to our bodily insides ( Genesis 15:4) but also refer to what we denote to the heart, except using the older English expression. So we have Genesis 43:30, Philemon 1:7 as a couple of examples of that. I trust you can see the use of the word 'heart' (& bowels) in Scripture.
If you make the Son to be more or less than the testimony of the father and the Son .
Then they are dishonored , because their testimony is not believed .
You can be one with your wife too , but there still is two of you .
To say Jesus and God are one is beyond ridiculous , they are two . Yes Jesus is one in spirit and is as God is . Totally a different thing .
Jesus prayed that his followers would be one as he and the father are in gospel of John , so does that expand the trinity ? Ridiculous.
Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
1 John 5:10 "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son."
1 John 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."
If I may ask one question. Yes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I hope people reading the Bible know this as that is what Christ denotes Himself as. Also being one with the Father. The Father being in Him and He in the Father. As God is Spirit.
Do you believe we should honor the Son even as we honor the Father? Thank you.
God Bless.
1= 1 not 3
If this does not work for you perhaps a prayer may help .
The devil is the author of confusion .
God is in the light and clearly to be understood especially about Jesus there can be no confusion . He is Gods Son . Nothing confusing about that .
You mentioned that we need to be fully clear & fully convinced in our hearts in what we believe. So what do you mean (or can you explain) the idea of "in our heart". I do not know what "Heart" means in terms of how the bible describes. I only really understand the heart as the physical muscle in the body. Otherwise the terminology of the heart is vague to me in the same sense that love and other words are just that...words but without a truly defined meaning. So would gladly appreciate what this means. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
But the trinity doctrine is foreign to the Bible .
God is one God according to James .
In like manner, our 'good' conscience is what is important in respect to water baptism. As Noah was saved by water, so is the believer saved by water. But Peter qualifies that: it's not the act of immersion that 'saves' us, i.e. as if water baptism washed any of our sins away - No - water baptism doesn't take away sin or even give us a new birth (the Holy Spirit does that), but the act of baptism is for the sake of our conscience. We might rejoice when we first come to know Christ & experience His new birth in us. We might go on confidently in what has taken place in our lives, even share this with others. But Satan isn't far away to make us falter & doubt whether what has happened is of God or from our own desires. Especially when we fall into sin, it's so easy to start wondering about our salvation & we might even become spiritually weak because of it.
So Peter is saying that even though water baptism doesn't save us or clean us of our sin, what it does do, is to give us a physical testimony to others & ourselves, that God has performed a special work in us: that we are now testifying publicly to it & that this act will be a testimony to Satan whenever he taunts us with doubt & fear. So it just helps to keep us in focus, just as partaking at the Lord's Table does, when we remember Christ's death for us. So baptism comes first as we identify with Christ's death & resurrection into new Life & is a witness to all: ourselves & to the evil around us.
Going in another direction. I am reading 1st Peter 3 and I have a questions regarding verses 20-21. Specifically, I understand that the flood and the 8 men that were saved from the flood represented water baptism, but I do not completely understand the passage of: "baptism doth also save us...but the answer of a good conscience toward God...". Can you explain this section of verse 21.
"Now therefore swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me, nor with my son, nor with my son's son: but according to the kindness that I have done unto thee, thou shalt do unto me, and to the land wherein thou hast sojourned." .................AND I PRAY YOU GET OVER YOUR ILLNESS TO SLEEP WITH MOTHERS AND DAUGHTERS.......