Answer to your questions, back up with biblical proofs:
Colossians 1:16 - 17 16For by him (JESUS) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (JESUS), and for him (JESUS): 17And he (JESUS) is before all things, and by him (JESUS) all things consist.
1 John 1:3 Context 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life (JESUS); 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Mark 16:19 19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Luke 22:69 68And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. 69Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
Acts 7:56 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Romans 8:34 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Hebrews 10:12 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
1 Peter 3:22 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Perspective Helps Us Understand God
Old Testament = God is a Spirit, invisible to the naked eye. Attributes are: Omnipotent - all powerful, can do anything nothing is impossible; omnipresent - is everywhere;
Sir I fully understand what you are saying yes depending on whos reading it punctuation changes themeaning as do center references and chapters, I in no way shape or reasoning or idea am I trying to get someone to believe my personal belief system. The apostle Paul who was given the revelation for the church and how it is supposed to function and operate and to this day there are individuals who argue water baptism or holy spirit or both, is speaking in tongues right or wrong, the apostle paul went up against the same thing and no I'm not advocating I'm as spiritual as he give me a break but it says in the timothy epistles that all of asia turn away from him and followed other doctrines and that was only about 70 years after pentecost so if you choose to believe that what we have in translation is word for word what these men were given by God thats fine with me your choice. By the way an example of poor translation which doesn't fit, on the cross Jesus Christ said the words eli eli lama sabbachthani that is to say my Gog my God why has thou forsaken me. Now since Jesus Christ always did the will of his father and told his disciples my father is always with me and his purpose was to buy us back by giving himself I.E. sinless blood you can't seperate that now we look look up those words back in old testament actual translation is my God my God for this purpose was I kept or spared you tell me what makes more sense. Again I've met people who were shown this and won't teach it because most people won't believe it and thats there privilege.
There are many, many, parallels in the book of Enoch to the Holy Bible.
In "The Book of Parables" from Enoch it elaborates on the Son of Man, The Chosen One, or Messiah(I believe Jesus Christ) to be with, or in the presence of, The Most High, Lord of Spirits, or Ancient "Head" of Days(I believe God Almighty).
And at that hour that Son of Man was named, in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, and His name brought to the Head of Days.
Even before the sun and the constellations were created, before the stars of Heaven were made, His name was named in front of the Lord of Spirits.
He will be a staff to the righteous and the Holy, so that they may lean on Him and not fall, and He will be the Light of the Nations, and He will be the hope of those who grieve in their hearts.
All those who dwell upon the dry ground will fall down and worship in front of Him, and they will bless, and praise the name of the Lord of Spirits.
And because of this He was chosen, and hidden in front of Him, before the World was created, and forever.
For the Chosen One stands in front of the Lord of Spirits. As His Glory is for ever and ever, and His Power for all generations.
You powerful kings who dwell upon the dry ground will be obliged to watch my Chosen One sit down on the throne of My Glory, and judge, in the Name of the Lord of Spirits
And in Him dwell the Spirit of wisdom, and the Spirit of understanding, and the Spirit of knowledge and power, and the Spirit of righteousness.
And He will judge the things that are secret, and no one will be able to say an idle word in front of Him, for He has been chosen in front of the Lord of Spirits, in accordance with His wish.
For He is powerful in all the secrets of righteousness and iniquity will pass away like a shadow, and will have no existence; for the Chosen One stands in front of the Lord of Spirits and His Glory is for ever and ever, and His Power for all generations.
Dear Rick, it sounded like you were trying to discredit the Bible in your earlier comment about "there are a number of places where things were added or subtracted to fit what they thought it mean't."
You were then asked to prove it, and you only said the original scrolls didn't have some punctuation. In other words, it sounds like you agree the KJV is a translation. Translations are called translations because no 2 languages are a perfect match. But if someone is trying to discredit the Bible by saying its translated then I will call out that logical fallacy.
To illustrate this, let's say someone said 'quiero' in Spanish and you translated it into 'I want' in English. Let's say someone then learns that the translation had the "I" 'added' to it so he calls you a liar and tells everyone to not believe you. Would that be a false assumption? Yes, it would. You mentioned punctuation. Does punctuation change the meaning or does it simply preserve the accuracy of the translation? Hebrew is read right to left. So, someone could also use a similar logical fallacy to say that the Bible has radically been 'changed' and 'altered' and can't be 'trusted' because it was translated to be read completely backwards as the original. Again, it was made accurate in English. Extremely accurate. Word for word direct translation to the most precise degree. Italicized words make the sentence complete in English and is a necessary part of the translation. In my earlier example of "I want" the I would be italicized if it were KJV, because it was a necessary part to make the sentence complete. It's not that some random guy just wanted to add random words for selfish reasons. So, if you didn't intend to attempt to discredit the Bible with this that's fine, but if you're telling others to not trust the Bible because it was translated, that would be very wrong.
If you choose too believe that the translations of Gods Word are completely accurate and as God gave it when holy men of God spake, know this that in the original writings their were no periods no chapter headings, no commas, and the italicesed words were not in original text. Thats why they were called scrolls. Now when you get into that kind of research also the bible is an eastern book which has a lot of eastern thought to be understood, I am in no sense challenging what someone else believes or has been taught, that being said if Gods word which is perfect as originally given its really neat to see it fit and work. Gods Peace be with you
So Chris not defending myself but you know that the kjv. Is a translation that came out from the Greek Hebrew and Aramaic and They were 66 writers involved and even that the original scrolls had no capital letters chapter headings or commas periods none of that. That being said and trust me this in no is diminishing the absolute divine Authority of the Greatness of God's Perfect Word it enhances it to a phenomenal degree. If you would like an example I'd be glad to give you one. Just lighten up is all I ask
Hi Rick, I'm politely calling you out on the following false statement you wrote: "there are a number of places where things were added or subtracted to fit what they thought it mean't". People can say all kinds of things for various motives. Obviously when you come to a Bible website and try to discredit the Bible with no proof it seems a bit shady. So, where's your proof- go ahead and lay it out. All of it. I already know in advance whatever you bring forth will be false assumptions and misunderstandings about the Bible, as there are many I've heard before, but I still want to be open to what you consider to be true. And through doing so, all I ask is that you likewise be open to a response and a different point of view. Then you can think it through, pray about it, and come to a conclusion on what you think is the truth. Fair enough?
Chris its rick don't begin to think that everything in the kjv or any other translation was in the original text there are a number of places where things were added or subtracted to fit what they thought it mean't
William, "the whole armor of God without going through the whole Bible" Whole, means just that, the whole word of God. Wouldn't you be unprepared if what you needed was what you overlooked? Armor requires maintenance, whether cleaning mud from the feet, adjusting the grips of the shield or chin strap of the helmet, or sharpening the sword. The prepared soldiers are those seeing to the details of their gear, and in doing so, develop a confidence in the effectiveness of that gear. The battle will come to you, what's your hurry,or, are you already being thrashed? I will pray for you, that is, as shoulder to shoulder on the battle front.
So I think I understand you: that God was alone in Heaven in eternity & it was Him & the cherubim that were involved in the creative work. And then when it came time for Jesus' appearance, you said "God manifested as a man name Jesus in New Testament; God as the Holy Spirit in Resurrection - all of these titles only belongs to Jesus."
So to the first point & to my first response to you on this matter: how do you understand Colossians 1:16,17 & John 1:1-3 & following verses?
To your second point: if God is now manifested as Jesus, & I assume you say that there is presently no God in Heaven except Jesus Who now God, then what do you make of Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 7:56, Romans 8:34, Hebrews 10:12, 1 Peter 3:22, & others. I'm confused.
I suppose the Trinity issue doesn't come up until these points are dealt with first. Thank you.
Cris - in Genesis 1:26 pronoun "us & our" were used, because there were cherubim present. You left out Genesis 1:27 which says this: Notice used of singular pronoun (he & his)= Verse 27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." the reason for the change in pronouns is because God is the only that created man, and all things. The cherubim were there as messengers of God.
In the Old Testament, only Titles were used for God whose name was kept secret.
God, Spirit, LORD, Word, Redeemer of Israel, Holy One of Israel, Adonai, Yahweh, El Shaddai, Creator, Deliverer, Elohim, I AM,
Prophesy of Prophet Isaiah:
Isaiah 7:14 14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
God is a Spirit - without blood, water, flesh, bones, is invisible to the naked eye. God humbled himself, manifested himself in the flesh a man name Jesus, who suffered, shed blood on the cross to cleanse man from sins, died on the cross, buried then rose from the dead on 3rd day, ascended into heaven, sent the Holy Spirit to indwell in our hearts = gifted us eternal life or salvation.
Jesus is the name above all names, all the titles used in the Old Testament and New Testament belongs to Jesus only. So Jesus is God and God is Jesus - no other God. Those who preach the Trinity are misleading people, preaching a gospel that contradict the true gospel of Jesus during his earthly ministry with his 12 apostles.
In summary = God in creation Old Testament; God manifested as a man name Jesus in New Testament; God as the Holy Spirit in Resurrection - all of these titles only belongs to Jesus.
In the New Testament, these titles were used;
God the Father, Son of God, Son of man, Christ, Holy Spirit, Savior, Messiah, First and Last,
In Hebrews 9:22 - 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
d. shield of Faith: when the enemy's arrows of fear & doubt come at us, our faith fully established in the One Who is altogether Faithful & True, will be our shield to bounce those arrows off.
e. helmet (for the head) of salvation: a direct hit here would kill us in an instant - but Christ's salvation has saved us & will continue to save us in our battle for our hearts & minds.
f. sword of the Spirit: our only offensive weapon which we use adeptly sending out our thrusts of God's Word against the enemy (as Jesus did & withstood Satan saying, "It is written").
g. praying always in the Spirit: unlike the warrior who hopes he will come out alive from the battle, our victory is always certain as we always seek the Lord when the conflict rages, engaging Heaven's host when the going gets a little tough. The Spirit of God is never far away & comes when we call for help, in faith.
Those are just some of my thoughts to guide you William. Remember, if the enemy does get through your armour that means that you've not put it on or you have left yourself exposed in some way to his attack. If you're fully dressed, nothing of Satan can harm you. You may stumble - you may squirm at an arrow of temptation hitting you, but you cast it off & march on. To this advance, Satan trembles. But don't relax - he's lurking in the darkness awaiting another opportunity.
Reading & understanding the whole Bible may help you to better understand the ways of God & the Devil & learn from it, but to use the armour of God as given in Ephesians 6:10-18 is your outline for full spiritual combat & defence that the Spirit of God equips every soldier engaged in Christian warfare.
The Apostle Paul, had a good look at a Roman soldier's outfit as they probably often marched through public places. Paul being the astute man that he was, saw the clear similarities of the soldier's armour so prepared to engage a visible enemy, to what the Christian should also wear as he battles the invisible enemy. And indeed, "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal (man-made) but mighty through God (God-given) to the pulling down of strong holds" ( 2 Corinthians 10:4).
So Paul tells us to put on the WHOLE armour of God - any piece missing gives an opportunity to the enemy to score a strike. This armour suggests a close combat situation, unlike modern warfare where little of this is seen as battles are conducted over great distance. So we're reminded that the spiritual forces against us are nearby & ever ready to engage us in an instant.
a. loins (the waist area) strapped with Truth: Truth holds our body armour in place; we must keep Truth tightly fastened, cherish it & let it be our defence as we face the taunts & lies of the enemy.
b. breastplate (covering the chest) of Righteousness: we are made righteous only through Jesus Christ & so clothed with His Righteousness, our hearts are protected & kept secure in His Love.
c. footwear of Peace: not just the foot but also the leg are protected. Where Satan would love to cause us to stumble or render us lame in our warfare, our feet are so shod with the Peace & Joy of Christ's salvation that our forward march is both careful & considered as we approach an enemy full of anger & rushing about as a roaring devouring lion. We are a different enemy, where peace & joy rule our hearts & so we approach him.
Robert. Just to clarify: Genesis 1:26a, "And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness". With your added reference to Ezekiel 10:19, I gather you're stating that it wasn't Jesus (the Word) in "us", but God is speaking of the cherubim. So God used these heavenly beings to assist in the creation of mankind. Interesting.
What would you do with Colossians 1:16,17: "For by him (Jesus is spoken of here as we see before & after these verses) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." How does this fit in with the cherub activity in creation?
John 1:1-3. I don't understand your point. What are the changes in the Bible versions (NKJV & ESV) you see? Is it the use of the words, "by" & "through", as in "All things were made by Him, or through Him". I can see the difference in meaning, but the intent is the same: that it was the Word of God that participated in creation with God (whether the creating work was from the Word or through the Word) and this Word was subsequently made human & His Glory was seen, as One come out of God (v 14). I await your clarification.
I would suggest reading the NT for a better understanding, but Ephesians chapter 6 tells us about putting on the whole armour of God, I hope this is what your looking for.
Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."
Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
I think I get what you mean, but it's not that simple. These were the armor(or armour, as it's spelled in kjv) pieces:
helmet of salvation (protects your most vital part)
breastplate of righteousness (righteousness protects your heart from evil)
loins girt with truth (having a base of truth gives you the center on which to build on)
feet shod with preparation of the gospel of peace (to run away quickly from temptations)
shield of faith (to withstand all of satan's fiery darts)
sword of the spirit (the only offensive weapon, prayer)
You can't exactly put on the armor of God without studying the word of truth and growing your relationship with Him. You have to sharpen your sword and repair your shield and armor before going into battle. This is done by growing in understanding and faith, which comes from studying the word of God.
Putting on the whole armour of God is learning and walking on His word that sir is a lifelong deal because we who are imperfect ate endeavoring to put on perfection Gods word, remember Jesus Christ respose to the devil during the temptations in luke 4 everytime it is written handing over the authority to His Father and our Father.
english standard version = changed contradicts truth
john 1-3 english standard version (esv) 1 in the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god. 2 he was in the beginning with god. 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
what are the consequences of following false teachers, according to our god/lord jesus?
here is what our lord jesus is saying in the bible
is there danger in rejecting the "trinity doctine"?
the bible has no record whatsoever of any danger rejecting the trinity doctrine. however, the danger lies in "accepting & believing it, because it blasphemes god!
our names will be taken away from the "book of life" believers going to heaven, eternal life with god.
we, you & i go to hell to burn forever
following false teachers - accepting & believing what they preach as the truth & doing it or practicing it - you blasphemed god.
here is what god is saying
revelation 22:18 context 18for i testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, god shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, god shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
deuteronomy 4:2 2ye shall not add unto the word which i command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the lord your god which i command you.
JUSTIFICATION OF GOD'S USED OF PLURAL PRONOUNS "US & OUR" = HE IS SURROUNDED BY CHERUBIMS AS MESSENGERS
Ezekiel 10:19 Context 19And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above. 20This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims. 21Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings.
1.TAKES AWAY FROM = preposition "by"
2.ADDS = preposition "through" and replaced preposition "by"
3.PURPOSE OF THIS CHANGE = justifies there is a Triune God or Trinity (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit)
4.CHANGE CONTRADICTS THE TRUTH = there is no biblical truth to support the Trinity in the Bible
5.NULLIFIES = these subtle changes nullify the written word of God or truth in the Bible - BLASPHEMES GOD = AN UNPARDONABLE SIN
THIS IS THE TRUTH - TRUE GOSPEL OF GOD
KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE = MOST ACCURATE VERSION
John 1:1-3 KJV 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
THIS IS WHAT THE FALSE TEACHERS HAD DONE TO JUSTIFY THEIR TRINITY DOCTRINE - 3 persons in 1 God, (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit)
NEW KING JAMES VERSION = CHANGED - CONTRADICTS TRUTH
John 1:1-3 NKJV 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
WHAT THEY DID IS BLASPHEMED GOD - AN UNFORGIVEABLE SIN. BY USING FLOWERY WORDS, THEY DECEIVED THEIR FOLLOWERS.
THIS IS THE SMALL CHANGE THAT CHANGED, NULLIFIES THE TRUTH, CHECK YOUR BIBLE. FROM NOW ON, GOD HAS WARNED YOU AND I. CHANGE OR REMAIN DISOBEDIENT TO GOD.
Definition of words or prepositions:
"through" = (KJV Dictionary) by means of, by the agency of. (Mirriam Webster Dictionary) by way of, by means of, by virtue of.
"by" = (KJV Dictionary) as an adverb, by denotes a noun (JESUS) is understood performed the actions.
HERE ARE BIBLE VERSES AS PROOFS
Genesis 1:4 Context 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
TO SUPPORT THE EXISTENCE OF THE TRINITY
1.False Teachers claimed this statement of God proved it using plural pronouns (us & our): Verse 26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"
2.TRUTH EXPOSED "False Teachers" CLAIM = notice used of singular pronoun (he & his)= Verse 27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
JUSTIFICATION OF GOD'S USED OF PLURAL PRONOUNS "US & OUR" = HE IS SURROUNDED BY CHERUBIMS AS MESSENGERS
Ezekiel 10:19 Context 19And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above. 20This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims. 21Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings.
I am looking for the best way to learn haw to put on the whole armor of God without going through the whole Bible.what pieces of armor and what do they signify shield helmet and the rest
God did send out His Word by the prophets but lastly sent His final message through that same Word ( Hebrews 1:1,2), now clothed in flesh for not just in bringing out God's Word in Person, but for the main purpose, that this Word (of God, from God, as God) would lay down His Life as a full substitutionary payment for our sins.
So here is the difficulty that you have, implying: the Son of God was only that, a special separate creation, holy & sinless, Who would sacrifice His Life in our stead. Yes, He was a special creation, not out of nothing, but from God's very Being. Though the requirement of a spotless Sacrificial Lamb offering would have been met in such a (separate) creation by God, it would lack the most important aspect of such a sacrifice: that God Himself would make the payment for man's sins. This is the true & fullest expression of God's Love ( 1 John 3:16: "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he (God) laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."). God had to come down to the realm of sinful man, taking on his flesh & ultimately becoming the sin offering that gives full pardon to all who come to Him by faith & unequivocal love in response. If God did not take this initiative, or He (in Jesus) failed to rise from the dead, we would remain hopeless, unredeemable, consigned to hell fire for all eternity.
I pray Rob, that you & any other who is at variance to what the Scripture teaches on this important matter, might know that your salvation hangs onto the fact that God had to lay down His Life to redeem you, & that He accomplished that by coming down, sending His Word, in the Person of Jesus Christ, Who then rose again to the Father, to Whom He once prayed: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" ( John 17:5). A very compelling Statement of Truth.
I think Rob, a dictionary wouldn't be very useful in this matter. So your answer is: "The Holy Spirit is of God". Well, that's correct but to expand on that a little, if I may amplify your thoughts. In great care, I would suggest that you also believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person, i.e. He comes from within the Godhead, sent into the World of sinners to convict & to indwell those who have been born again that they might lead new lives with a new Power within.
That He must be a Person, as shown in many examples: Intelligence ( 1 Corinthians 2:10,11); has feelings ( Ephesians 4:30); has a Will ( 1 Corinthians 12:11); has a Mind ( Romans 8:27); teaches ( John 14:26); guides ( Romans 8:14, John 16:13); commissions ( Acts 13:4); commands ( Acts 8:29); restrains ( Genesis 6:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:7); intercedes ( Romans 8:26); speaks ( John 15:26). Though He may be a spirit as from God, out of God's Being, He is the very Expression & Person of God Himself. I hope you agree to that, or am I putting words in your mind or mouth?
Then we come to God's Word. As seen with the Spirit, the Word of God is unseen, the very Articulation of God in creating, giving commands & direction whether to heavenly hosts, to His people on Earth or through His prophets & in other utterances that we're unaware of. Now there may be other aspects of God's Being that we're not told of, but of the Word & the Spirit, there's no dispute. The difficulty now for some remains with the 'Word'.
If then, God sends out His Spirit to accomplish His Purposes, why is it so hard to comprehend that He sends out His Word to do likewise? Or is that because the Spirit has no flesh, therefore it must hold true that God's Word can only be spirit without flesh? What if God chose to give His Spirit flesh maybe that would make it easier to understand the 'Word' easier.
Hi bro its Rick The word of God states in Ephesians ! : 4 that God new before the foundations of the world we would be born and believe in the same sense God all knowing new He would have to save us from the adversary by Giving the perfect human sacrifice His only begotten son. No where in scripture does it literally say that physically or in any other form Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God, that is a matter of how someones interpreting what is being read . Like I myself have lost count on how many interpretations I've heard or read on one verse of scripture. Just keep one thing in mind either the whole word is perfect and fits with life or something is lost in interpretations. The great reason for denominations is that men have decided what they believe it says, the apostle paul one of the greatest men of God that ever lived made this statement 2 Timothy 1:15 all of Asia turned away from what God told him to teach that was about 80 years after pentecost, and this Guy was given to write the seven church epistles and in Ephesians 4:4 There is one body one spirit and one hope and one lord and one Father, I did'nt write the book, since thats supposed to be the case you explain to me what happened other then one man saying this is what I think and another man saying the same. I'll stick paul in Galatians one six -twelve I'll stick with paul and The Gospel that God Gave Him, also he was so important thatJesus Christ appeared to Him.
There is no need to get sharp. We are just trying to understand why you say believing Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one with God the Father is "damning". No one is saying Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are not OF God. We are saying they are more OF God than anything else in all of creation. Nothing is more OF God than Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. It is confusing why you think it is "damning" to believe God is in them, or they in God, more than anything else.
Please don't think anyone is trying to take anything away from God the Father. Who is of coarse Spirit and the source of all things.
Also you didn't answer the one question I asked about if you believe Christ existed before He was born on earth. Just a yes or no question. You just asked me if "I understand God was before the creation of world". Which you must not have read John 17:5 I posted for you that answers that question. Jesus stating the glory He had WITH THE FATHER before the world was.
I have nothing to do with the RCC doctrine, in Jesus teachings (KJV) he tells us to believe as little children and so I do believe when I read my bible, I don't understand a lot of it, such as how could Jesus raise someone from the dead, but I know he raised Lazarus, John 11:43, or how could he walk on water as in Matthew 14:25, but I know he did, and many more. Nowhere in the bible does it teach us that we need to understand, but only believe, believe as little children, when you see the trust and faith that a child has in their parent this is what Jesus teaches, only in the cross and his saving grace. the thief that was saved on the cross, he didn't have time to read up on scripture but only believe, and so on. I watch Billy Graham episodes on y tube, on a regular basis, and in one of his sermons he describes the trinity as in water, in water you have, liquid, ice and steam, they are all have the same components, but are different in form. So also as in 1 John 5:7 "the Father, Word and Holy Ghost and these three are one", neither do I understand this, but I know it's true.
Mark 10:15 "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."
Answer to your questions, back up with biblical proofs:
Colossians 1:16 - 17 16For by him (JESUS) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (JESUS), and for him (JESUS): 17And he (JESUS) is before all things, and by him (JESUS) all things consist.
1 John 1:3 Context 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life (JESUS); 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Mark 16:19 19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Luke 22:69 68And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. 69Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
Acts 7:56 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Romans 8:34 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Hebrews 10:12 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
1 Peter 3:22 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Perspective Helps Us Understand God
Old Testament = God is a Spirit, invisible to the naked eye. Attributes are: Omnipotent - all powerful, can do anything nothing is impossible; omnipresent - is everywhere;
In "The Book of Parables" from Enoch it elaborates on the Son of Man, The Chosen One, or Messiah(I believe Jesus Christ) to be with, or in the presence of, The Most High, Lord of Spirits, or Ancient "Head" of Days(I believe God Almighty).
And at that hour that Son of Man was named, in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, and His name brought to the Head of Days.
Even before the sun and the constellations were created, before the stars of Heaven were made, His name was named in front of the Lord of Spirits.
He will be a staff to the righteous and the Holy, so that they may lean on Him and not fall, and He will be the Light of the Nations, and He will be the hope of those who grieve in their hearts.
All those who dwell upon the dry ground will fall down and worship in front of Him, and they will bless, and praise the name of the Lord of Spirits.
And because of this He was chosen, and hidden in front of Him, before the World was created, and forever.
For the Chosen One stands in front of the Lord of Spirits. As His Glory is for ever and ever, and His Power for all generations.
You powerful kings who dwell upon the dry ground will be obliged to watch my Chosen One sit down on the throne of My Glory, and judge, in the Name of the Lord of Spirits
And in Him dwell the Spirit of wisdom, and the Spirit of understanding, and the Spirit of knowledge and power, and the Spirit of righteousness.
And He will judge the things that are secret, and no one will be able to say an idle word in front of Him, for He has been chosen in front of the Lord of Spirits, in accordance with His wish.
For He is powerful in all the secrets of righteousness and iniquity will pass away like a shadow, and will have no existence; for the Chosen One stands in front of the Lord of Spirits and His Glory is for ever and ever, and His Power for all generations.
If God and Jesus are the same who is this?
You were then asked to prove it, and you only said the original scrolls didn't have some punctuation. In other words, it sounds like you agree the KJV is a translation. Translations are called translations because no 2 languages are a perfect match. But if someone is trying to discredit the Bible by saying its translated then I will call out that logical fallacy.
To illustrate this, let's say someone said 'quiero' in Spanish and you translated it into 'I want' in English. Let's say someone then learns that the translation had the "I" 'added' to it so he calls you a liar and tells everyone to not believe you. Would that be a false assumption? Yes, it would. You mentioned punctuation. Does punctuation change the meaning or does it simply preserve the accuracy of the translation? Hebrew is read right to left. So, someone could also use a similar logical fallacy to say that the Bible has radically been 'changed' and 'altered' and can't be 'trusted' because it was translated to be read completely backwards as the original. Again, it was made accurate in English. Extremely accurate. Word for word direct translation to the most precise degree. Italicized words make the sentence complete in English and is a necessary part of the translation. In my earlier example of "I want" the I would be italicized if it were KJV, because it was a necessary part to make the sentence complete. It's not that some random guy just wanted to add random words for selfish reasons. So, if you didn't intend to attempt to discredit the Bible with this that's fine, but if you're telling others to not trust the Bible because it was translated, that would be very wrong.
So to the first point & to my first response to you on this matter: how do you understand Colossians 1:16,17 & John 1:1-3 & following verses?
To your second point: if God is now manifested as Jesus, & I assume you say that there is presently no God in Heaven except Jesus Who now God, then what do you make of Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 7:56, Romans 8:34, Hebrews 10:12, 1 Peter 3:22, & others. I'm confused.
I suppose the Trinity issue doesn't come up until these points are dealt with first. Thank you.
In the Old Testament, only Titles were used for God whose name was kept secret.
God, Spirit, LORD, Word, Redeemer of Israel, Holy One of Israel, Adonai, Yahweh, El Shaddai, Creator, Deliverer, Elohim, I AM,
Prophesy of Prophet Isaiah:
Isaiah 7:14 14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
God is a Spirit - without blood, water, flesh, bones, is invisible to the naked eye. God humbled himself, manifested himself in the flesh a man name Jesus, who suffered, shed blood on the cross to cleanse man from sins, died on the cross, buried then rose from the dead on 3rd day, ascended into heaven, sent the Holy Spirit to indwell in our hearts = gifted us eternal life or salvation.
Jesus is the name above all names, all the titles used in the Old Testament and New Testament belongs to Jesus only. So Jesus is God and God is Jesus - no other God. Those who preach the Trinity are misleading people, preaching a gospel that contradict the true gospel of Jesus during his earthly ministry with his 12 apostles.
In summary = God in creation Old Testament; God manifested as a man name Jesus in New Testament; God as the Holy Spirit in Resurrection - all of these titles only belongs to Jesus.
In the New Testament, these titles were used;
God the Father, Son of God, Son of man, Christ, Holy Spirit, Savior, Messiah, First and Last,
In Hebrews 9:22 - 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
d. shield of Faith: when the enemy's arrows of fear & doubt come at us, our faith fully established in the One Who is altogether Faithful & True, will be our shield to bounce those arrows off.
e. helmet (for the head) of salvation: a direct hit here would kill us in an instant - but Christ's salvation has saved us & will continue to save us in our battle for our hearts & minds.
f. sword of the Spirit: our only offensive weapon which we use adeptly sending out our thrusts of God's Word against the enemy (as Jesus did & withstood Satan saying, "It is written").
g. praying always in the Spirit: unlike the warrior who hopes he will come out alive from the battle, our victory is always certain as we always seek the Lord when the conflict rages, engaging Heaven's host when the going gets a little tough. The Spirit of God is never far away & comes when we call for help, in faith.
Those are just some of my thoughts to guide you William. Remember, if the enemy does get through your armour that means that you've not put it on or you have left yourself exposed in some way to his attack. If you're fully dressed, nothing of Satan can harm you. You may stumble - you may squirm at an arrow of temptation hitting you, but you cast it off & march on. To this advance, Satan trembles. But don't relax - he's lurking in the darkness awaiting another opportunity.
Reading & understanding the whole Bible may help you to better understand the ways of God & the Devil & learn from it, but to use the armour of God as given in Ephesians 6:10-18 is your outline for full spiritual combat & defence that the Spirit of God equips every soldier engaged in Christian warfare.
The Apostle Paul, had a good look at a Roman soldier's outfit as they probably often marched through public places. Paul being the astute man that he was, saw the clear similarities of the soldier's armour so prepared to engage a visible enemy, to what the Christian should also wear as he battles the invisible enemy. And indeed, "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal (man-made) but mighty through God (God-given) to the pulling down of strong holds" ( 2 Corinthians 10:4).
So Paul tells us to put on the WHOLE armour of God - any piece missing gives an opportunity to the enemy to score a strike. This armour suggests a close combat situation, unlike modern warfare where little of this is seen as battles are conducted over great distance. So we're reminded that the spiritual forces against us are nearby & ever ready to engage us in an instant.
a. loins (the waist area) strapped with Truth: Truth holds our body armour in place; we must keep Truth tightly fastened, cherish it & let it be our defence as we face the taunts & lies of the enemy.
b. breastplate (covering the chest) of Righteousness: we are made righteous only through Jesus Christ & so clothed with His Righteousness, our hearts are protected & kept secure in His Love.
c. footwear of Peace: not just the foot but also the leg are protected. Where Satan would love to cause us to stumble or render us lame in our warfare, our feet are so shod with the Peace & Joy of Christ's salvation that our forward march is both careful & considered as we approach an enemy full of anger & rushing about as a roaring devouring lion. We are a different enemy, where peace & joy rule our hearts & so we approach him.
What would you do with Colossians 1:16,17: "For by him (Jesus is spoken of here as we see before & after these verses) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." How does this fit in with the cherub activity in creation?
John 1:1-3. I don't understand your point. What are the changes in the Bible versions (NKJV & ESV) you see? Is it the use of the words, "by" & "through", as in "All things were made by Him, or through Him". I can see the difference in meaning, but the intent is the same: that it was the Word of God that participated in creation with God (whether the creating work was from the Word or through the Word) and this Word was subsequently made human & His Glory was seen, as One come out of God (v 14). I await your clarification.
Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."
Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
helmet of salvation (protects your most vital part)
breastplate of righteousness (righteousness protects your heart from evil)
loins girt with truth (having a base of truth gives you the center on which to build on)
feet shod with preparation of the gospel of peace (to run away quickly from temptations)
shield of faith (to withstand all of satan's fiery darts)
sword of the spirit (the only offensive weapon, prayer)
You can't exactly put on the armor of God without studying the word of truth and growing your relationship with Him. You have to sharpen your sword and repair your shield and armor before going into battle. This is done by growing in understanding and faith, which comes from studying the word of God.
english standard version = changed contradicts truth
john 1-3 english standard version (esv) 1 in the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god. 2 he was in the beginning with god. 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
what are the consequences of following false teachers, according to our god/lord jesus?
here is what our lord jesus is saying in the bible
is there danger in rejecting the "trinity doctine"?
the bible has no record whatsoever of any danger rejecting the trinity doctrine. however, the danger lies in "accepting & believing it, because it blasphemes god!
our names will be taken away from the "book of life" believers going to heaven, eternal life with god.
we, you & i go to hell to burn forever
following false teachers - accepting & believing what they preach as the truth & doing it or practicing it - you blasphemed god.
here is what god is saying
revelation 22:18 context 18for i testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, god shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, god shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
deuteronomy 4:2 2ye shall not add unto the word which i command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the lord your god which i command you.
JUSTIFICATION OF GOD'S USED OF PLURAL PRONOUNS "US & OUR" = HE IS SURROUNDED BY CHERUBIMS AS MESSENGERS
Ezekiel 10:19 Context 19And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above. 20This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims. 21Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings.
1.TAKES AWAY FROM = preposition "by"
2.ADDS = preposition "through" and replaced preposition "by"
3.PURPOSE OF THIS CHANGE = justifies there is a Triune God or Trinity (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit)
4.CHANGE CONTRADICTS THE TRUTH = there is no biblical truth to support the Trinity in the Bible
5.NULLIFIES = these subtle changes nullify the written word of God or truth in the Bible - BLASPHEMES GOD = AN UNPARDONABLE SIN
THIS IS THE TRUTH - TRUE GOSPEL OF GOD
KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE = MOST ACCURATE VERSION
John 1:1-3 KJV 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
THIS IS WHAT THE FALSE TEACHERS HAD DONE TO JUSTIFY THEIR TRINITY DOCTRINE - 3 persons in 1 God, (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit)
NEW KING JAMES VERSION = CHANGED - CONTRADICTS TRUTH
John 1:1-3 NKJV 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
WHAT THEY DID IS BLASPHEMED GOD - AN UNFORGIVEABLE SIN. BY USING FLOWERY WORDS, THEY DECEIVED THEIR FOLLOWERS.
Definition of words or prepositions:
"through" = (KJV Dictionary) by means of, by the agency of. (Mirriam Webster Dictionary) by way of, by means of, by virtue of.
"by" = (KJV Dictionary) as an adverb, by denotes a noun (JESUS) is understood performed the actions.
HERE ARE BIBLE VERSES AS PROOFS
Genesis 1:4 Context 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
TO SUPPORT THE EXISTENCE OF THE TRINITY
1.False Teachers claimed this statement of God proved it using plural pronouns (us & our): Verse 26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"
2.TRUTH EXPOSED "False Teachers" CLAIM = notice used of singular pronoun (he & his)= Verse 27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
JUSTIFICATION OF GOD'S USED OF PLURAL PRONOUNS "US & OUR" = HE IS SURROUNDED BY CHERUBIMS AS MESSENGERS
Ezekiel 10:19 Context 19And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above. 20This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims. 21Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings.
1.TAKES AWAY FROM = preposition "by"
2.ADDS = prepo
God did send out His Word by the prophets but lastly sent His final message through that same Word ( Hebrews 1:1,2), now clothed in flesh for not just in bringing out God's Word in Person, but for the main purpose, that this Word (of God, from God, as God) would lay down His Life as a full substitutionary payment for our sins.
So here is the difficulty that you have, implying: the Son of God was only that, a special separate creation, holy & sinless, Who would sacrifice His Life in our stead. Yes, He was a special creation, not out of nothing, but from God's very Being. Though the requirement of a spotless Sacrificial Lamb offering would have been met in such a (separate) creation by God, it would lack the most important aspect of such a sacrifice: that God Himself would make the payment for man's sins. This is the true & fullest expression of God's Love ( 1 John 3:16: "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he (God) laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."). God had to come down to the realm of sinful man, taking on his flesh & ultimately becoming the sin offering that gives full pardon to all who come to Him by faith & unequivocal love in response. If God did not take this initiative, or He (in Jesus) failed to rise from the dead, we would remain hopeless, unredeemable, consigned to hell fire for all eternity.
I pray Rob, that you & any other who is at variance to what the Scripture teaches on this important matter, might know that your salvation hangs onto the fact that God had to lay down His Life to redeem you, & that He accomplished that by coming down, sending His Word, in the Person of Jesus Christ, Who then rose again to the Father, to Whom He once prayed: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" ( John 17:5). A very compelling Statement of Truth.
I think Rob, a dictionary wouldn't be very useful in this matter. So your answer is: "The Holy Spirit is of God". Well, that's correct but to expand on that a little, if I may amplify your thoughts. In great care, I would suggest that you also believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person, i.e. He comes from within the Godhead, sent into the World of sinners to convict & to indwell those who have been born again that they might lead new lives with a new Power within.
That He must be a Person, as shown in many examples: Intelligence ( 1 Corinthians 2:10,11); has feelings ( Ephesians 4:30); has a Will ( 1 Corinthians 12:11); has a Mind ( Romans 8:27); teaches ( John 14:26); guides ( Romans 8:14, John 16:13); commissions ( Acts 13:4); commands ( Acts 8:29); restrains ( Genesis 6:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:7); intercedes ( Romans 8:26); speaks ( John 15:26). Though He may be a spirit as from God, out of God's Being, He is the very Expression & Person of God Himself. I hope you agree to that, or am I putting words in your mind or mouth?
Then we come to God's Word. As seen with the Spirit, the Word of God is unseen, the very Articulation of God in creating, giving commands & direction whether to heavenly hosts, to His people on Earth or through His prophets & in other utterances that we're unaware of. Now there may be other aspects of God's Being that we're not told of, but of the Word & the Spirit, there's no dispute. The difficulty now for some remains with the 'Word'.
If then, God sends out His Spirit to accomplish His Purposes, why is it so hard to comprehend that He sends out His Word to do likewise? Or is that because the Spirit has no flesh, therefore it must hold true that God's Word can only be spirit without flesh? What if God chose to give His Spirit flesh maybe that would make it easier to understand the 'Word' easier.
There is no need to get sharp. We are just trying to understand why you say believing Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one with God the Father is "damning". No one is saying Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are not OF God. We are saying they are more OF God than anything else in all of creation. Nothing is more OF God than Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. It is confusing why you think it is "damning" to believe God is in them, or they in God, more than anything else.
Please don't think anyone is trying to take anything away from God the Father. Who is of coarse Spirit and the source of all things.
Also you didn't answer the one question I asked about if you believe Christ existed before He was born on earth. Just a yes or no question. You just asked me if "I understand God was before the creation of world". Which you must not have read John 17:5 I posted for you that answers that question. Jesus stating the glory He had WITH THE FATHER before the world was.
God Bless.
Mark 10:15 "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."
The Holy Spirit is OF God who did you think he is of ? Is there another option?