Bible Questions Page 38

  • Chris - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    Page 2.

    4. "Was (Satan in Eden) it to test Adam's loyalty?" No. Satan came of his own volition to attempt corruption of man. God didn't put man in that situation to test him, but to warn him of partaking of the Tree of KoGaE, so that innocence would perpetually be his/her character. What Satan then did subsequently, was of his doing & not a test from God.

    5. "The implication is that man was not perfect, even at the moment of creation." You cited Hebrews 7:11; 10:1 in relation to perfection. I understand your correlation of Perfection with Maturity, & this is true in the case of the believer striving for perfection = maturity in Christ. But how do you correlate this Perfection with the lack of Maturity in A & E? I can't see the connection. If man was made perfect by God, nothing else is involved (e.g. no maturity, no analysis skills, no forecasting abilities based on evidence around, indeed, not knowing what is good & what is evil). A perfect human creation is just that: perfect in itself, though not necessarily having the identical personhood & character of the Creator.
  • Chris - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    Page 1.

    Carlos, following threads is now getting difficult, so can only comment on points (hopefully the latest ones) that I see.

    1. How does "man (Adam) eat the fruit, not the fruit itself, but the disobedient act of eating it, divested man of immortality". So, is it the imagery of eating but not in actuality that you mean here? So then the fruit wasn't real, then probably not the Tree. Was the Garden real? I'm confused; my normal logical mind can't grasp such a concept, in that what is real anymore.

    2. I have never believed that Angels could die (which implies mortality); they are eternal beings incapable of 'immortality' (like them, man will one day be in eternity). The only judgement for wicked Angels is not death, but the Lake of Fire.

    3. "Was Satan successful in ruining God's perfect creation?" Yes. And "Why did God banish Satan to the Garden of Eden?" This is new to me. Do you have a reference for this? The only one I know is Revelation 12:9, where God had cast him onto the Earth. And Ezekiel 28:13, but this shows that he was in Eden (maybe referring to the temptation where he sought out A & E), not cast down to Eden.

    (onto Page 2)
  • Mishael - in Reply on Psalms 144
    The Soldiers Prayer can be Googled.
  • Jesse - in Reply on Matthew 24:38

    Thank you for your kindness. Please know that you have not upset me by any means. As far as who's right and who's wrong, I try to avoid those things. I know I can be wrong also. I've said this before and I'll say it again: My strongest point as a believer in my relationship with Christ is to confess my spiritual stupidity. I confess to the Lord that I don't know. And even if I did know, I wouldn't know. Even if God did send me a message, how do I know it is from God? I don't. I plead dumb sheep. I plead I can be deceived and I'm trusting totally in Christ. When I began to take that approach and that position before Christ there was never any doubt about what the Lord wanted me to do. Everything was so definite. I did what He did. That's it! Where He goes, I go, and where I go, He goes, if that makes sense? I know my position will always be behind Christ. He said follow me. I don't walk beside Him, and I don't walk ahead of Him. My position will always be behind Him.

    I think we could both agree that we sometimes let our own human pride get in the way of having healthy conversations. I myself am guilty of that. I consider myself to be very narrow minded when it comes to the things of the Lord. If that's considered a fault, that's a fault I don't mind having. You tell me that I can believe anything I want, and I wish it were that easy but it's not. And you and I, and any other believer for that matter, there's no such thing as being less of a Christian, just like there's no such thing as a believer lacking faith. I hope you understand what I mean by that.

    Anyway, thank you again. It is good talking with you also. Stay in the word my friend. I'm sure we'll speak again. The Lord is good!
  • Robert Marino - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    On your last paragraph, I would have to say I agree with 95%. The one thing I disagree with is it says UNTO the coming of the Lord and parousia means physical return. I know guys like David REagan say, "What, is it a yoyo rapture?"

    Yes, that is what the Bible says. Those that are alive and REMAIN (PERLEEPTO or survive) UNTO the coming (parousia or physical return).

    What are we surviving from if we are taken before it gets real bad?

    Also the word klepto would have been used by the Holy Spirit instead of harpazo if there was a 'secret' rapture. But he used the word that means to seize, pluck, pull. Why? None of us would survive the wrath of God that starts to get poured out after Satan's wrath. In 70 AD God pulled the saved ones out of Jerusalem and had them go into the wilderness and they were protected right before Titus' army destroyed the city. Noah was protected in the flood. Lot taken out but still on the planet. Whether it is a pre-wrath rapture or post-trib (I lean toward post-trib), God has a certain number of us who will be martyred and some that will be protected. So whether He pulls us out and puts us in a safe place or pulls us out in a pre-wrath rapture, His will will be done. This is my take brother. It woudl be great if you can take my END TIMES survey on my youtube channel.
  • Mishael on Genesis 10
    Eve coveted knowledge from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    The Godhead decided to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life, because they would live eternally in their disobedient, fallen state.

    The Tree of Life is found residing in Revelation 22:2
  • Mishael on Genesis 10
    There actually is a prophesy in Psalms about Judas Iscariot. The disciples were bible studying, in Acts I think.

    Jesus knee.
  • Robert Marino - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    PART 5:

    I'm not saying there isn't an Old Testament verse that talks about some going back into the land at some point. The Ethiopian and Eritrean Joos have been trying to migrate into Israel for about 10 years now and are rejected because they are black - a little hidden secret by many teachers. They are true blood Jews. I believe God started this work about 10 years ago so I believe we have no more than 30 more years before Jesus' return to set up His millennial reign.

    The rapture had to take place no later than 1988 if 1948 is true. A Biblical generation is always 40 years or less. We have several passages in scripture with the number 40 in it. They are trying to now use a passage in Psalms out of context to make a generation 70 top 80 years. Ask Hal Lindsey and many others who predicted a pre-1988 rapture based on the 1948 Balfour Declaration (British/U.N.). Half the Joos live in America and most in New York City. They for the most part reject what goes on over there and many over there reject what is going on. That is why they predicted it. It is based on what they can see over what is really happening. Many Christians in Palestine were ethnic cleansed once the 1950's hit and not by Muslims. I will leave it at that. Would God do that to His people?

    Matthew 24 only says, "his disciples came to him" yet Mark 13:3 actually tells you the FOUR disciples that came to Him with their three questions. It wasn't all of them.

    But the entire Bible is written to all people to learn from. Jesus even said, "Had you believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote of me." Most modern sects don't even believe the Old Testament all by itself even though Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies that are in the Old Testament. If they didn't believe Moses, and didn't believe Jesus, why would you think they are going to read Matthew?
  • Robert Marino - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    PART 2:

    Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Who was Jesus talking to here? - Peter, James, Andrew and John. That is how Jesus started His whole discourse which the end part of Matthew 21, 22, 23 and most of beginning of 24. Always ask yourself when reading a passage, What is the What?, Who are the Who?, When was the When?, Where was the Where, and What is the Why? Then make sure you read the context. You cannot get the FULL context of chapter 24 without reading the 3 previous chapters. You will miss a lot. It is all of the Olivette Discourse. You read Matthew 24 alone and you will believe and teach a lot of things incorrectly.

    There is only ONE group of Jews that I am aware of today that strictly stick to the Old Testament. They are Kirite Jews and very few. The rest of the religious ones hold to the unsaved rabbinical teachings - Talmud, Mishnah, and Gemara and is why they are unsaved. Those writings are commentaries- useless at best. 50% to 68% of Jews living in Israel today, yes today, are atheist or irreligious as their own media if you ever read their own online newspaper columns admits. So if you think they are going to read the New Testament, unless they converted to Christianity, it isn't going to happen. It will be way too late for them and after the fact when they do. The antichrist will be there soon.

    Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

    Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

    Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

    Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

    Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my w
  • Robert Marino - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    Hi Jesse,

    I am going to have to do this in four or five parts since you are only allowed to write 2000 characters at a time.

    PART 1:

    Yes Matthew wrote with the Jewish mindset but so did Paul when he wrote Hebrews but it is for all of God's people. They key is WHO were these warnings given to? Obviously, those who follow Jesus so to say they are for future people who are only going to get the warnings AFTER it is too late just don't hold water. There are only ONE people of God EVER both in the Old and New Testaments. Abraham was a Syrian. He also had gentile servants. Joseph married an Egyptian and had two half-breeds Manasseh and Ephraim. 430 years later, the Israelites came out of Egypt a MIXED people the Bible teaches. It has always been about being in the covenant.

    Matthew 24 was written for every generation and for THAT GENERATION of Jews especially still living in Jerusalem who God would save 40 years later when He destroyed Jerusalem through Prince Titus thus fulfilling Daniel 9 and Matthew 23 and Matthew 21. So this is a poor argument at best. There were synagogues throughout the Roman Empire that many Gentiles went to as you can see over and over in the Book of Acts. Here is just ONE of 20 verses in Acts alone.

    Act_26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

    Matthew merely wrote what Mark 13 and Luke 21 say. These other gospels were written by two of Paul's missionary companions in which Paul was the "apostle to the Gentiles". To say that Matthew was only FOR Jews because it was written with the Jewish mindset, you have to throw out the Book of Hebrews, the Book of James, the Book of Revelation (the most Old Testament TYPOLOGY book in the New Testament), and the entire Old Testament. The question is "WHO would be the ones to read it"? Only the followers of Jesus are ever going to read it.
  • Robert Marino - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    Appreciate that. I have about 200 pages of notes fine-tuning things I have learned over the last 5 to 7 years. The Holy Spirit has really opened my eyes on this subject.

    If you type in PRE-TRIB RAPTURE: TRUE OR FALSE? I am buried even though that is my channel name. try typing in one of my actual video names. here it is Questionnaire Poll on YOUR view of End Times Theology


    Thumbnail picture should say "End Times Theology with Brother Bob" in this video. I corrected the thumbnail but they still have the top letters chopped off for some reason. Let me know if this works. It should as I just tried it. Get many others to join if you can.
  • Adam - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    >How can they believe without a preacher?

    The Bible. A preacher isn't necessary for someone to follow Jesus. Preachers don't save anyone, Jesus does. People can easily learn about Jesus from the Bible.
  • Bob Hilt - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    Take the Mark 666 or not?

    Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

    Revelation Chapter 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

    2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    I am in total agreement with you, Danny Donaldson. What happens is that some Christians think the Rapture is before the Tribulation so, they have to somehow account for Christians killed during the Tribulation for their testimony of Christ. However, they also claim, erroneously, that the Holy Spirit is taken away. They completely overlook the fact that what Christ said will apply even through the Tribulation. Everyone who believes is sealed with the Spirit of Promise. So while on the one hand they say Christians are Raptured, the Church and the Holy Spirit are taken away before the Tribulation, on the other hand they claim there will be a Church during the Tribulation. Problem is, they don't consider Believers converted during the Tribulation to be part of the Church.

    Two other problems with that position are that if the Holy Spirit is taken away, who will convict sinners of sin? Who will Seal new Believers? Who will lead them into Truth? If the Church is taken away, who will spread the message of Christ? How can they believe without a preacher?

    Most significantly, however, is that their position is not realistic. It is a fantasy developed from conjecture and feelings, rather than Scripture. What Scripture can they produce to support their point of view? None. Because there aren't any. The only places where the Bible tells us when the Rapture is going to be are all based on Christ's revelation that it will be Immediately After the Great Tribulation.

    Unfortunately, their argument is superficial and based on unsubstantiated supposition. So you are exactly right, Danny. I was almost kicked out of a Bible Institute because I dared question the Administrator about the time of the Second Coming. And that was before I knew the difference. And after I preached a sermon based on Salvation by Grace, borrowed from Charles Spurgeon, the Pastor stood up, called me a liar, and told congregants not to believe anything I said. But Spurgeon was right. And so are you.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    Robert, you are welcome to use anything I write here. But how do we find you in YouTube. There are many. Which one are you?
  • Danny A Donaldson - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    I totally agree with you on this matter i believe the rapture will take place after the great tribulation. I even asked my pastor about it. He said that. Its for the ones that believe after the rapture and come to christ. But my reply is. There is only 1 2nd coming of christ not 3
  • Danny A Donaldson on Matthew 24:38
    I know we are to follow the laws of the land but when they come out with the law to take the mark of the beast what do we do ? Do we still follow the law or break it
  • Jesse - in Reply on John 16
    Yes, thanks Bob for pointing that out. Matthew 24:2 was fulfilled, not partly, but completely, when Titus came in and destroyed the temple in 70 A.D. I guess it would have been more correct for me to say that at the time Matthew was written (60's A.D) everything was written as future events that had not yet been fulfilled, including Verse 2, the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. If the question had been asked if all these things were to be future events when Matthew was written, the answer would have been yes. If it was asked if any of the things in this chapter already have happened, I would have given a different response. But just looking at the question, it seemed like a general open-ended question. If you notice, I never mentioned Verse 2 at all. I started from Verse 4 and went from there, and those are future events.

    Youtube? Is that a good source to get bible truth from?
  • Nathaniel on Psalms 8

    Chapter 1

    Why is Ecclesiasticus shown with the King James Bible?

    1The Prologue of the Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach. Whereas many and great things have been delivered unto us by the law and the prophets, and by others that have followed their steps, for the which things Israel ought to be commended for learning and wisdom; and whereof not only the readers must needs become skilful themselves, but also they that desire to learn be able to profit them which are without, both by speaking and writing: my grandfather Jesus, when he had much given himself to the reading of the law, and the prophets, and other books of our fathers, and had gotten therein good judgment, was drawn on also himself to write something pertaining to learning and wisdom; to the intent that those which are desirous to learn, and are addicted to these things, might profit much more in living according to the law. Wherefore let me intreat you to read it with favour and attention, and to pardon us, wherein we may seem to come short of some words, which we have laboured to interpret. For the same things uttered in Hebrew, and translated into another tongue, have not the same force in them: and not only these things, but the law itself, and the prophets, and the rest of the books, have no small difference, when they are spoken in their own language. For in the eight and thirtieth year coming into Egypt, when Euergetes was king, and continuing there some time, I found a book of no small learning: therefore I thought it most necessary for me to bestow some diligence and travail to interpret it; using great watchfulness and skill in that space to bring the book to an end, and set it forth for them also, which in a strange country are willing to learn, being prepared before in manners to live after the law. All wisdom cometh from the Lord, and is with him for ever.
  • Jesse - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    Well Carlos,

    I suppose that's where we differ. You believe that the message Christ was giving in Matthew 24-25 was to the church, and I believe He was giving this warning to the Jewish people. I can share my basis of belief, but like I said, what would be the use since I'm sure you will shoot down whatever it is that draws me to the conclusion of a Pre-Tribulation rapture. I asked you in a previous thread, the one that got shut down, why do you continue hounding me about the rapture? How long are you going to drag this on? I do not have an issue with you because you believe in Post Trib. Why would you have an issue with me?
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    Jesse, the reason I emphasize the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation, is because I believer Christ was telling us to prepare for the Tribulation. So if during the Tribulation they say, Christ is here or there, don't believe them. The message Christ delivered in Matthew 24-25 is, Be Prepared for the Tribulation you are going to go through. The question remains, how do we prepare Spiritually, Physically, Socially, Politically, Psychologically?

    But since you think you will be taken out before that, what is your Biblical basis for that belief? Are there Scriptures you can point to that are not directly related or a repetition of what Christ describes in Matthew 24?

    What is the basis of your belief?
  • Bridtget wood on Psalms 144
    What I'm looking for is well known but, I want to be sure, The solders prayer is it Psalms 144:1? in the KJV in the HOLY BIBLE?
  • Jesse - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    Yes, I do recall Paul's letter. It was written to several churches in Asia Minor, in the region of Galatia, written because the false teachers came in and attacked Paul's ministry and message. The Judaizers professed to be believers in Jesus as Messiah, but their doctrinal approach was that the Gentiles are not in a position of Sons of the Covenant to receive the promises of God until they became Jews and they follow the Law. Paul corrected that.

    You ask if the Sermon on the Mount only applies to Jews? It was specifically given to Jesus' disciples. There were multitudes that gathered and were listening in; But Jesus specifically was giving this sermon to His disciples only. Now, are there things in Matthew Chapters 5-7 (Sermon on the Mount) that we Gentiles can benefit from? I would say yes. And if you recall in one of my previous responses, I already said that. But there are also things written specifically to the Jews that the church today tries to apply to believers that do not apply to the church. There are many teachings found in Matthew that are not found in the other Gospels. That's because Matthew's Gospel specifically pertains to the Jews.

    Baptism? The Jews were baptizing long before the church came into existence. Was the O.T. for the Jews only? Originally yes, it was given to the Jews and only the Jews. We have it in our bibles today so that we can study History and Prophecy. It is the history of God working through and in His people, the children of Israel, and prophecy about the coming Messiah.

    You keep bringing up that Christ is coming after the Great Tribulation. Is there a reason? I already agreed to that. Concerning the rapture, we will just have to remain in disagreement with each other on the timing. I can layout every reason why I believe in Pre-Trib, but what good would that do? There are at least three views, and no matter what view a person takes, they have scripture to back up their view, and then it becomes "I'm right, and you're wrong!"
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    Tim Moriaty, you're right. Matthew 24:37-38 are stating what conditions will be like prior to the Coming of Christ. However, it is tightly woven into Matthew 24:29. Chapters 24-25 are a Warning. In that Warning, Christ happens to mention when we can expect His return, which is Immediately After the Great Tribulation.

    Paul reiterates what Jesus said in 2 These 2:1-4, "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness-the son of destruction-is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

    "Our being gathered together to Him" is a direct reference to the Rapture. When does he say that will be? After the Antichrist exalts himself above God. In Daniel we see the AntiChrist sits in the Holy of Holies and exalts himself above God, in the middle of the Tribulation. Hence, the Rapture will not take place until after that. But to be perfectly clear, Christ adds in Matthew 24:29 that it will not only be after the AntiChrist desecrates the Temple, but Immediately After the Great Tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.

    It goes like this:

    1. AntiChrist ascends to Power

    2. AntiChrist Descartes the Temple

    3. The Great Tribulation

    4. Defeat of Israel (Daniel)

    5. The Coming of Christ and Rapture

    There isn't any other place in the entire Bible that makes the time of Christ's Return so clear. We may not really know how all these troubles are spread throughout history, but we can be certain of one unequivocal thing. Christ won't Return and the Rapture won't take place, until Immediately After the Great Tribulation.
  • Philip L Kilmer on John 20:23
    From the cross Jesus said, " forgive them they don't know what they are doing." Where would we be now if He had not said that? Stephen said," lay not this sin to their charge." Did this act of forgiveness have any impact on Saul's (Paul) life? Where would we be now missing 13 books of the New Testament? God has already forgiven humanity, we need to forgive each other. If we don't forgive we put ourselves in bondage.
  • Donna Adkins on 2 Corinthians 6:6
    why did judas betray jesus I know what he did but why did he do it
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    Jesse, thanks for your insight. I wasn't aware of some of the interesting details you mention. What I understand is that Matthew was written for Believers in a Jewish setting. If you recall from Paul's admonitions to the Church in Galatia, there seemed to be a lot of confusion as to what a follower of Christ was was supposed to do. There was a vacuum of knowledge and understanding. Jewish Believers needed guidance. Were they still Jewish? Who exactly was Christ? What were His teachings?

    Most of the people Christ addressed were Jewish non-believers. Does that mean that the Sermon on the Mount only applies to Jews? Or that only Jews were to heed Christ's instruction for the Passover Communion? If you recall, there were no Gentiles present at the Passover. Or how about Baptism? Was that only for the Jews? Or the OT, is that for Jews only? Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Peter to the Jews. Does that mean we don't take anything Peter said as applicable to Gentiles?

    Matthew 24 is no more for the Jews only, than the rest of the Bible. The message is to everyone, but even more specifically for the Followers of Christ. Matthew 24:29, whether for Jews or Gentiles, is the only, the only place in the entire Bible that pin points the Return of Christ. And in it, Christ Himself says He is coming after the Great Tribulation. Jewish or not, that is a piece of information valuable to everyone. Daniel 7-12 was written to the Jews, but not for the Jews. It was written for everyone, most particularly, for Believers in Christ.

    If you do a careful study of The Day of the Lord, you will find it is limited to the last moment of the Great Tribulation, not the last 3 1/2 years. Same as Wrath. You don't, but many Christians think of the entire Tribulation as The Day of the Lord. But what you say about the Rapture is what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31. And it happens Immediately After the Great Tribulation. 1 These 4 says the same thing, but doesn't specify, as Christ did.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    Chris, If you believe the tree was an actual unique tree, perhaps it wasn't a corrupt tree. You bring up a good point. But why would God tell Adam and Eve not to eat its fruit if there was nothing wrong with it? Keep in mind that if the tree is an actual tree, then its fruit is an actual fruit which imparted knowledge with one single bite. So God protected the Tree of Life, but what does the Bible say happened to the Tree of Knowledge? As an aside, here is another example of allegory. Psalms 104:4, Hebrews 1:7, "Now about the angels He says: "He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire."" So, if that is literal, how long were the Angels there protecting the Tree of Life? And if these trees are no longer there, were they cut down? What happened to them? Did more trees of knowledge grow there?

    Your comparison between Adam and God in the Flesh (Jesus) is questionable. Christ came with a Pre-Determined Purpose. Christ is God. Christ was Mature and fully prepared. His response to the devil was, "You shall not tempt the Lord your God." James 1:13, "God is not tempted by evil" and in Acts 2:24, "death had no power to hold him". Jesus was a man. But He was God in the body of a man. Death entered the world through Adam, because Adam was weak. But life came through Jesus, the Tree of Life, the resurrection and the life.

    I don't agree with your assumption that God wanted to shield Adam and Eve from Knowledge of Good and Evil, to keep them innocent. Is there a Biblical foundation for that? Additionally, you imply corruption wasn't in existence in the Garden. But didn't God send the most corrupt thing in His creation to the Garden? There were 3 things in the Garden, Man, TKGE, TL. Why was the TKGE there?

    I won't debate that God created a flawed universe. He didn't. It deteriorated on its own. But think about what you said, 'I would say it was a part of His Perfect Knowledge & His Whole Plan into Eternity allowed for it."
  • Robert - in Reply on Matthew 24:40
    Where does it say satan comes 1st? Wow pay attention to the scripture
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Matthew 24:38
    P2..from P1.

    Those questions lead me to qualify my response. God, I suppose, created mankind 'perfectly suited' for His Purpose. The Fall had to be a consequence of exposure to the elements of creation, for Christ's entrance into the world to be made possible, who according to Titus 1:2 was programmed before creation. I guess my starting point in this discussion is not Genesis, to the exclusion of everything else, but Titus, 2 Timothy 1:9, Acts 3:8, 17:3, John 20:9, Luke 24:26, 44, Romans 8:3, Hebrews 7:18, 10:5. From there, I look back at Genesis. but maybe you are right. Maybe God did create everything perfect.

    Hebrews 10:1, For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

    Hebrews 7:11, Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood...

    The implication is that man was not perfect, even at the moment of creation. The first indication is that he was not Mature in his understanding. We conclude from the fact that s/he could not distinguish between good and evil, they were created in innocence. If Maturity is a sign of Perfection, they weren't. They were not, as you stated, flawed, but were they fully equipped for the task? I might be getting myself in hot water here. Example, a young persons at 30 might be in perfect health because he doesn't have any ailment or issues. But his system and capacity deteriorate. And while healthy, that might not qualify them go excel in Mountain Climbing. Adam had a mountain to climb he might not have been equipped for. The devil was crafty, astute, street wise. Adam and Eve were gullible. But that was no excuse for disobedience. In law, there is a lot of discussion about intent. Were Adam and Eve making a conscious, deliberate and calculated decision to abandon God? Or is there more to the story, we don't know? Probably. Were they better equipped than I think? Perhaps.

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