Bible Questions Page 16

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  • Adam - in Reply on Psalms 8
    part 4:

    1 Corinthians 10:13 - talks about temptation. If a Christian can't sin and is saved regardless then what is the reason to avoid temptation? Why would it matter?

    If all the Christians were already saved then why would Paul wrote so many books to each of them to encourage them to stay the course, run the race, to avoid sin, and be obedient. Why? If they're already saved, what's the point?

    You know that most of the New Testament books are written to Christians, right? 1 Corinthians is literally to the church of Corinth as said in 1:2. If they're all saved regardless, then why write a book, why spread the gospel, why why why?

    Earlier it was mentioned that following God is like disrespecting the cross. No, it's the opposite. Not obeying Jesus is like slapping Him in the face and disregarding all he has done.

    How can you tell who is a Christian? The Bible says by their fruit which is very similar to works. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

    Maybe my opinion will give you something to consider or maybe not. I did spend a long time sharing all this to you specifically in brotherly love. I think God really absolutely hates sin, and sin is NOT allowed in heaven and most people will go to hell, including disobedient Christians as it warns against in Matthew 7:21. Most of Jesus's parables are warnings which include to Christians, most of the teachings are to Christians, this is a big deal and not something to be taken lightly. Many will be deceived and will choose not believe the Bible. God bless...
  • Adam - in Reply on Psalms 8
    Hi Chris,

    part 3:

    > if the 'Christian' persists in wilful sin, then he hasn't been saved in the first place

    This seems like a tough position to take, because it appears to contradict itself at every angle. For example: what/who is a Christian, to you? Can you give a precise and reliable definition of a Christian?

    What if someone you believe is a Christian who meets the criteria you believed was set for one later turned out to turn away from Christ and continue in willful sin as it says in Hebrews 10:26 then you say they were never a Christian in the first place, but why weren't they? I know of Christians who are husbands, dads, pastors, youth ministers, worship leaders, who have each turned from Christianity. There's even a forum online for ex-Christians who have left the faith. So, you say they never were Christian in the first place even after all they did as Christians. So, does that mean someone who only responds to an altar call and prays and gives their heart to Jesus isn't Christian either? What exactly is a Christian?

    Even angels in heaven (they're already in heaven) have freewill to sin and turn from God. If even angels have freewill while in heaven, of course mankind does on Earth when God specifically gave mankind the freedom to choose good or evil, to choose love or hate. We're not robots. Just like if you're a dad it's more meaningful if your son/daughter voluntarily says 'I love you', God gave us freewill to choose if we want to be with him or not, to love Him or not, to obey Him or not. It's our choice and we'll also be judged. I suppose if you believe you "can't" sin that doesn't jibe with judgment day either. If we're already saved, what's the point of being judged for our actions?

    Secondly, it sounds like you don't believe Christians have freewill if you they can't sin. To say we don't have freewill is to contradict other verses.
  • Bob Hilt - in Reply on Revelation 7
    Repent: The meaning for those with eyes to see and ears to hear:

    Acts 3:19 REPENT Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your SINS sins may be blotted out, (change your mind on SIN)

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, REPENT Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of SINS sins,

    Acts 8:22 REPENT Repent therefore of this thy WICKEDNESS wickedness,

    2 Corinthians 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not REPENT repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. ( repent uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness )

    Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to REPENT repent of her FORNICATION fornication; and she repented not.


    Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit ADULTERY adultery with her into great tribulation, except they REPENT repent of their DEEDS deeds.

    Revelation 9:21 Neither REPENTED repented they of their MURDERS murders, nor of their SORCERIES sorceries, nor of their FORNICATION fornication, nor of their THEFTS thefts.
  • Adam - in Reply on Psalms 8
    Part 2:

    The second observation is your quote:

    How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

    Impossible, the Spirit could never allow for such an attitude or interpretation;

    The first part is a scripture Romans 6:2, but your 2nd sentence is not in the Bible. It does not say that after Romans 6:2 and I don't believe a Christian sinning is impossible. Even Paul admits to sin and all Christians sin, so to claim Christians can't sin seems inconsistent with the Bible. Here are a few examples:

    -Much of Jesus's teachings were to his existing followers, including many warnings to not go astray and to 'do things'. If all his Christian followers were already saved then why would Jesus ask them to keep doing things? Why change at all? Why even preach the gospel? Why have a Bible? Why try? I have never heard anyone who believes OSAS have a clear answer for this. If Christians don't need to avoid sin because they're saved regardless why would anything in the Bible even matter? It does matter, because the Bible clearly says obeying God is important. If you don't obey then you don't love Jesus and aren't following Jesus much.

    -Most of Jesus's parables were about how most people will go to hell and how to avoid it. Jesus called people to put forth effort, to change, to take action. If taking action wasn't important or even related to salvation then why would Jesus keep saying it was like in Matthew 7:21? This verse would have to be reinterpreted, discredited, or thrown out to believe that obeying God is bad. Is God likely to say that obeying him is bad or is satan more likely to say that?

    -Judas was a Christian and he betrayed Jesus and died a horrible death and likely went to hell.

    -People are given freewill. We're not robots. The Bible already says all sin. Anyone claiming Christians can't sin is claiming we don't have freewill. Hebrews 10:26.
  • Mishael TO Robert L - in Reply on Romans 8:34
    You must mix your faith with prayer. Receive it and believe you have what you ask for.

    If there is anyone whom you hate; forgive them as long as it takes to root in your heart. Even 70 times 7. Then God will hear your prayer.

    Pray the Lord's Prayer.

    Pray: In the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I bind the works of the spirit of infirmity and the spirit of death. I cast you into outer darkness and dry places!

    Go now from the top of my head to the soles of my feet! I plead the Blood of Jesus over my body. I resist the devil and he MUST flee now!

    I pray the windows of heaven to pour out healing balm over my life, my body and all that I have.

    I pray dear God to lend me your warring angels to guard the 4 corners of my home and prevent the evil from returning so that I may rest now.

    In the name of Jesus Christ, my Savior and my Lord. Amen

    Google AbeBooks dot com & get this book. It'll be used and inexpensive.

    Title: Healing The Sick by T.L. Osborn

    I got healed while reading it a few hours :)

    I had a migraine that felt like my skull was crushing. My 8 yr old son ran through the room while I was laid out flat in indescribable pain. I asked him to pray for me. He laid his hand on my head and said be healed, and ran out the door. I laid there some minutes. I had faith. I stood up. No pain. I walked up stairs. No pain. I shook my head. No pain. I ran outside and hugged my kid. Back inside I thanked the Lord about 30 times. I've been healed numerous times. He cares for you. Get that book and don't listen to other people that confess negative faith.

    Demons come back to see if you're serious about being saved and healed. You chase them out. Find some scriptures in the New Testament and say it out loud: IT IS WRITTEN!! And quote the scripture.

    Your faith is what makes it work. It is written: Jesus healed them ALL.

    Read the book. Let your faith get FAT and rock solid. Email me any time :D
  • Adam - in Reply on Psalms 8
    Hi Chris,

    Thanks for sharing your explanation. I know you won't change your position and I certainly won't change mine. Each time I read through the Bible my position is only reinforced and each time I pray and ask God to reveal the truth and wisdom in understanding it seems confirmed. So, discussing further isn't likely to bear any fruit. I'm just curious why some passionately spread such an opinion, however, because the risk/reward doesn't seem to balance out. I believe Satan likes deceiving people as he is the great deceiver and liar. He even works to attack Christians' beliefs but they aren't aware of it. So, if there's 2 very different beliefs about salvation, one of them is true and one is false. If satan were to deceive one person into believing a lie, which is more likely: 1) that satan would go around trying to deceive Christians into being more obedient to God than they actually need to? or 2) that satan would go around trying to deceive Christians into disobeying God, despite scripture like John 14:15?
  • Israel Kuda on 1 Timothy 2:12
    I agree with Paul 100% and I believe the Bible does not contradict itself.

    It is true a woman should not teach out of her womanhood or femininity. When she teaches, she is preaching/teaching not as a woman but as a member of the body of Christ, one together with other men and women. The womanhood in her should keep silent in church and be subject to her husband but the new creature in her cannot certainly be forbidden to speak the Word. In any case it was women who brought the first news of the resurrection and it was a woman (Anna) who blessed the then baby Jesus, speaking in the temple (the church). Was it not a woman who preached to the whole city and brought the whole of Samaria to Christ in John chapter 4? They later graduated in their belief (v42), after they had come to hear of the Lord first hand but their first instance of belief (v39) was at the testimony of the woman! Yes women were considered property in the Jewish traditions but now Christ has come to redeem them that are under the legalistic tendencies and nitty-gritties of the law that we might receive the adoption of sons and now we are all sons of God by faith!

    It would be foolish to be legalistic and petty by clinging to do's and don'ts in taking this verse at its literal value; any saved Spirit filled, baptized believer can speak in church for there is neither male nor female but we are all one in Christ Jesus!
  • Mishael On Galatians 323-25 on 1 Timothy 5:8
    3:23. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    3:24. Wherefore the law was our SCHOOLMASTER to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    3:25. But after faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster

    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    Acts 15:10
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Genesis 10
    Chris. Still on Page 3. You say that after the Fall "the Purpose of God in Creation was thwarted". I am certain you don't believe that. You just haven't examined the thought. What does the Bible say about God and His Purpose? It specifically says it cannot be thwarted. The Purpose of God will stand.

    Isaiah 14:24, 26-27 - The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand. This the plan devised for the whole earth, and this is the hand stretched out over all the nations. The LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who can thwart Him? His hand is outstretched, so who can turn it back?

    Ephesians 1:4-5 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

    Isaiah 46:9-11 - Remember what happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. I distinguish the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come, saying: 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.' I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it.

    Isaiah 48:3 - I foretold the former things long ago; they came out of My mouth and I proclaimed them.

    Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.

    Acts 4:28 - They carried out what Your hand and purpose had decided beforehand would happen.

    Daniel 4:35 - All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?'"

    The confidence we have is that God is trustworthy. He is not fickle. If God says we will be eternally perfect, we will be. If God had created Adam and Eve perfect, they would have been. And neither they, nor the devil would have rebelled against God.
  • Chris - in Reply on Psalms 8
    Page 3.

    So, in essence, it encompasses all the Law & much, much more, as the Spirit calls for that 'higher level of spiritual living & obedience' that the Law could never give & the Jew could never perform. Does all this then give the possibility of believers becoming 'slack' in their faith, believing that, e.g. "I can steal (or, whatever sin), because the Spirit hasn't convicted me or shown me otherwise"? "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Impossible, the Spirit could never allow for such an attitude or interpretation; if the 'Christian' persists in wilful sin, then he hasn't been saved in the first place (this is of course, references our other discussion on a believer's Eternal Security). I'll leave it here: my 'short' explanation has turned out otherwise.

    The Lord be with your spirit Adam.
  • Chris - in Reply on Psalms 8
    Page 2.

    And in the case of observance of the Sabbath (which is the commandment that is somewhat extraordinary in the list of commands given, as it is specifically incumbent upon Israel), the keeping of it is mandatory, if the believer is to be totally obedient to all of God's Laws. Hence, 'Sabbath keepers', & all who adhere to obedience to the Ten Commandments are constrained to keep the Sabbath as Holy, without exception. Conversely, those in my understanding, who refuse to keep that Sabbath Law because of reasons cited, would also be hypocritical if they kept the other 'Nine" & left out the 'One'.

    So where does this leave us. As far as your understanding & performance of your faith is concerned, I cannot be in a position to answer. But in my understanding & vehement belief, that since God's Salvation through His Son, is only by His Grace & through our Faith in response (& even this Faith is His Gift to us), then obedience to His 'written' Laws not only leads one to knowledge of his own failure to keep them & resultant 'death', but also remains totally incompatible to the Law of Grace as the two are attempted to fusion. What then is the Law of Grace = Law of (Christ's) Spirit? It is the Whole Law of God, not bound by the Ten Commandments & rigid obedience to it which only led to death, but that which is written in our hearts & interpreted for us by His Spirit. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death". (onto Page 3).
  • Mishael on Jonah 35-10 411 on Psalms 8
    Jonah 3:10

    The entire nation of Nineveh repented: from the king down to the animals. Sack cloth, ashes and total fast, for all.

    And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

    The one instance of God repenting.

    Galatians 5:22 The Fruit of the Holy Spirit:




    Long suffering







    Against such there is no law. // let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

    I see nothing profitable in hitting the sheep with a pole. The shepherds crook is pull them back from danger.

    What would the Holy Spirit do?

    Jesus said to Peter: feed my sheep; 3 times.

    Intercessory prayer is for His flock.

    Standing in the gap, is for carrying lambs.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Genesis 10
    Chris, Page 3. If God intended to create a perfect world, what happened? You say He knew man would fail. If while knowing man would fail, God created a world that allowed man to fail, was His intent to create a perfect world? Or was God caught by surprise? If God's intent was perfection, why did He plant a bad Tree in the middle of the Garden? Why did He send Satan to the earth and placed him right smack in the middle of the Garden? Or was God not aware that by placing Satan in the Garden, he would tempt Adam and Eve and cause them to disobey God?

    Can a perfect God fail? Is it possible for perfection to decay? If it was God's intent to make man perfect, why didn't He give man perfect wisdom and common sense? Can a perfect being be deceived? Can a perfect God be deceived? Were the Angels created perfect? Was the universe created perfect? Do perfect things corrupt?

    My conclusion, based on verses previously noted, is that God did not create a perfect world. He created an existence perfectly suited for His Purpose in Christ, who created everything that exists so He could enter His creation to make it perfect. Man was not perfect, because he could die. Were that not the case, the Tree of Life would have been meaningless. He was not perfect because he could fail. He wasn't perfect because God created him so Christ could enter creation and die. If men could not die, the Plan to have Christ born to die would have been a contradiction. Man had to die, so Jesus could die. Remember, the Plan for Christ to redeem mankind and all creation, through death, was completed before the Fall. Recall the story of Jacob and Esau.

    Death is the result of corruption. Whether Adam corrupted instantly or over time, is inconsecuential. Wether the devil corrupted instantly is also inconsequential. The fact is that they were capable of being corrupted. That makes them not perfect. In the perfect world to come, there will be no decay. All things will last forever incorruptible.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Genesis 10
    Chris, again you ask, "God's creation was formed for the sole purpose of corruption, so His Christ could fulfill His Plan for removing that corruption"?

    Again the answer is, 'somewhat'. The Bible says Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, death, evil and corruption. The Bible also says that was God's Plan before time even began (Titus 1:2). If God planned the eradication of corruption (sin, evil, death, decay, pain, suffering), before any of it existed, then God created, in part to remove corruption from created things.

    If we can apply Daniel 9:24 to Christ, we can conclude that Christ came to get rid of corruption and establish eternal perfection. Throughout Scripture we see that God's purpose is to put an end to corruption (wickedness, evil). The hope of the Christian is that we will live in eternal incorruptibility (1 Corinthians 15:53).

    So, to accomplish His purpose of a perfect existence, God had to create the imperfect creation that exists. God not only understood, in His wisdom and infinite knowledge, that corruption would affect creation, He planned for it. I repeat my previous assertion that, corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Were that not true, God would not have created an existence susceptible to corruption. Why would He? Consequently, He had to create the existence He created and make arrangements to make it perfect. To achieve perfection, all we have experienced had to happen.

    It was because of that, that God ceased His creative work on the 7th Day. God stopped creating, because He created with a Purpose. There isn't anything in the Bible that even suggests God created mankind for mankind's own sake. The only thing I see we are left with, is that God created for Christ to put an end to corruption in creation. As we can see from Hebrews 3-4, we are still in the 7th Day of God's rest. That's to say, God did not resume creating things the morning after the 7th Day. And God won't resume creating until Christ returns.
  • Ken - in Reply on Revelation 7
    1st Corinthians 6:9 311 know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived neither fornicators nor adulterers nor idolaters or a feminine or abusers of themselves with mankind Northeast nor Covetous nor drunkards nor revilers North storage nurse shall inherit the kingdom of God and such were some of you but you are washed but you are Sanctified but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the spirit of our God. You see bob that the blood of Christ washes away all the sin of the Believers so when God sees the believer he sees perfection it's clear that we were all of those things before we trust in Christ as our savior the only difference is we are washed sanctified and purified in the blood of Christ it's his blood that washes us not our Behavior Romans 4:8 blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against him ! did the dying Thief repent of sin? or did he believe on the Lord? Meaning he changed his mind about Christ and believe that he was truly the Lord and that Jesus could save him and Jesus did indeed save him saying today you will be with me in Paradise he had no time to repent of sin or get baptized he was dying on the cross with Jesus and Jesus required nothing of him but simple belief.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Genesis 10
    You ask, "Did God create man so that Christ could come into the world to save him from sin's penalty?"

    My response is No. Keep in mind the Angels also sinned. Why didn't God save the Angels? Why create man so Christ could enter creation to save men? For whatever reason, Christ created man and entered the world as a man, to vanquish the devil (Hebrews 2:14). Wasn't there a better way? Obviously not.

    Consequently, because God created an existence susceptible to corruption (Romans 8), we have to conclude that He created it that way because it was an absolute necessity. It could not have been done any other way. So God could have created a different existence, if and only if it were not necessary to create it as He did. 1 Peter 1:11, "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?" Peter tells us that even the Angels wait anxiously for our redemption, because their salvation depends on our salvation.

    The Bible is clear. Christ didn't just come to save mankind from its sin. He came to redeem all of creation from its corruption. It so happens, God had to do that, of necessity, through the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ. See Hebrews 2:10-17, 1 Corinthians 2:7.

    Romans 8:19-22, "The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time."

    God did not cause anyone to sin or corrupt. For whatever reason unknown to us, corruption is present in creation. To achieve eternal perfection in things created, God Planned Christ (Revelation 21:4, Acts 13:37). Why things deteriorate is a mystery of the physical laws of the material universe and the angelic realm.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Genesis 10
    Everything in Scripture, from Genesis 1-3:15 to Revelation 22 is about Christ. Everything points to Christ. God said in Isaiah 46:10 that His Purpose would stand. And in 14:24, "The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "As I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand."

    If Christ was not the purpose of creation and all things were not created for His incarnation, death and resurrection, as stated in Colossians 1:16, Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 10:5, what was the purpose of creation? The entire Bible is dedicated to Christ and 2Tim 1:9 tells us it was "by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal."

    I would argue that if the Plan of Salvation was drawn up before the Fall, in fact, before time/space, then creation had to have been for and about Christ. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, to vanquish death, to redeem His creation and to establish eternal perfection.

    So, if God knew man would fail, before He even created man, why did He create man and why send Christ to redeem him? Why not just create people that would not sin? After all, isn't that what we are promised in Heaven? Isn't the promise, abundant life for all eternity, where neither sin nor moth corrupt? Why did God subject all of creation to all this trouble (Romans 8) just to get to perfection and a sinless eternity?

    The argument is, man has free will and s/he can't have free will unless they have the ability or possibility to rebel, disobey, sin. But if that is the case, will we have free will in Heaven? And if we do, will anyone rebel? And if we have free will, why do we pray, Your Will Be Done? Why would God create a being with free will, then ask him to relinquish it? Why not create a being like those that will exist in eternity?

    The fact is all creation was subjected to suffering, because it was necessary (Romans 8). Just as necessary will be the release of Satan after his 1,000 incarceration (Revelation 20:7). Why? All things are for Christ (Colossians 1:16).
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Genesis 10
    So Chris, with respect to your questions, listed below, I offer what follows.

    A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 8:17f, Ephesians 1:4, 3:10-11, Isaiah 44-48

    B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Hebrews 10:5, Galatians 3:16, Romans 11:36

    C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Hebrews 2, Galatians 3:16

    D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Romans 9:22-24

    E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matthew 4:1, Luke 4:2

    To A: I don't think anyone can argue that Christ was not in the initial Plan of creation, given Jesus created all things. Titus 1:2 and 2 Tim 1:9 are unequivocal. The Plan of Redemption was drawn up before anything was created. We can legitimately conclude from that, that the coming of Christ in a human body (Hebrews 10:5), was intentional. Redemption was not offered in reaction to the Fall. Jesus prayed to the Father to, "glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed". 1 John 5:20, John 1:18.

    If all things were created for the sake of Jesus (Colossians 1:16), doesn't it seem obvious that Jesus was part of the Plan of Creation? There is no indication in Scripture that Jesus was an afterthought? In these verses, we are told that Christ's incarnation was in the original blueprints, before mankind was created. Acts 2:23 Ephesians 1:4.

    What did Jesus mean when He stated in John 8:58, "Before Abraham existed, I Am"? Keep in mind that it is Jesus speaking. Was He simply saying He is God? Or was He saying He as Savior existed before creation? That is, Christ existed. Not Jehovah existed. Christ existed and He is God. John 1 attests to that. In John 17:24 Jesus says God loved Him before creation. Loved who? God loved God? No. God loved Jesus, the Savior.

    Revelation 13:8, 17:8 also reveal that prior to the Fall, the names of the saved were written in the Book of Life. What's up with that? Jesus came before the Fall.
  • Nas on Matthew 7:2
    Wondering if any one payed attention to Matthew 7:26?
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Genesis 10
    Chris, on Page 1 & 2. Thank you for your response and for continuing the conversation. I like controversy and ambiguity in a discussion, because it allows you to explore further and examine yourself and the substance of your beliefs.

    That said, you have correctly outlined my points in page 1. They are, as you summarized:

    1. All things have been created for Christ

    2. The Future does not exist

    3. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose

    4. We are not the object of creation, Christ is

    5. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation

    6. God created to eradicate corruption

    In Page 2 you ask and I cite some Scriptures:

    A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 8:17f, Ephesians 1:4, 3:10-11, Isaiah 44-48

    B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Hebrews 10:5, Galatians 3:16, Romans 11:36

    C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Hebrews 2, Galatians 3:16

    D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Romans 9:22-24

    E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matthew 4:1, Luke 4:2

    In Ephesians 3:10-11 Paul opens a window so we can get a glimpse of why God created mankind. It was to make the Wisdom of God known to "the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms". That is a lot to absorb. And how was that Purpose accomplished? Through Christ. In 1Cor 4:9, 15:50f, 1Pet 1:12 we see that our human existence is only part of what comprises the Mystery of God's Purpose, which includes more than just us. Nevertheless, everything hinges on humanity. So, for the Purpose of God concerning all of creation, Christ came into the world. There is a war raging in the spiritual realm, we know nothing about.

    I'll try to address your questions A-E in the next post. They are complex and not easy to answer. But I will try. What I want everyone to keep in mind is, as Romans 11:36 says, all things were created 'from him and through him and for him are all things'.
  • Michael D Nichols on Isaiah 18
    What nation is referred to as "The land beyond Ethiopia" in Isaiah Chapter 18?
  • Gail E Brown on 2 Thessalonians 2:7
    2 Thessalonians 2:7, I'm thinking upon the pre-tribulation vs post Tribulation, so I see: v7 who now lets will let, (Father) until he be taken out of the way, (Antichrist).

    The God the Father let's the evil one work iniquity, until the son of perdition will be revealed and he will be taken out of the way.

    Matthew 24:31 and he shall send his Angels with a great sound of a Trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds.

    I see: the last Trump of God , the 7th Trump is the post Tribulation rapture.

    I can understand that we have been taught the pre-tribulation rapture is what most believe, but does anyone take the time to search this out. I see: God's rath is poured out at the battle of Armageddon and before that God sends the angels at the last Trump to gather us home. Could this be ?
  • Bob Hilt - in Reply on Revelation 7
    Ken You write "if repent means to turn from sin then God is a sinner because he repented so many times"

    Do you dare to compare yourself with a sinless God by claiming repent means to the same thing for both of us?

    Sinful man vs a sinless God? Have you never known words to have more than one meaning?

    So in Revelation 2 when the Lord told the Believing church to repent, what were they repenting of?

    Their unbelief? A change of mind.

    Revelation Chapter 2

    1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

    2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

    3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

    4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

    5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

    except thou repent.

    except thou repent.

    except thou repent.

    except thou repent.


  • Adam - in Reply on Psalms 8
    Hi Chris,

    I think the interpretation of scripture I'm reading from you can be described as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    >If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.

    The way I interpret your comment it that it says you will lose your salvation by grace if you seek to obey any of God's laws. That's a pretty serious claim which Jesus himself said is false. Have you prayed about this and asked God to confirm if this is actually true before spreading this around to other Christians? What if the people you tell will result in them not seeking to obey God's law anymore and following the world instead, would you consider that a good thing or bad thing? Are Christians really supposed to tell others that if they obey God, that they risk going to hell? To me it's clear that's not what the Bible says. Matthew 5:48 is Jesus says to try and strive to be perfect- and it sounds like you might disagree with that verse. Jesus fulfilled the law, died on the cross for or sins, and we're in grace if we follow Jesus, but he didn't say to stop trying to obey, but the opposite. Philippians 2:12 - with fear and trembling to pursue Jesus. This is an active effort, not a passive status.

    So, I'll get back to the heart of the matter- which is the throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In this analogy, the baby is God's law and trying to be obedient to God, and the bathwater is legalism- trying to 'earn' someone's way to heaven. Romans 6 says not to throw out the baby, James 2 the same. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law doesn't mean it's null and void. This point was already explained in the scripture and I don't see any other way to interpret it. To say that some scripture doesn't apply because its to Jews isn't a valid point as the other verses cited were also written to Jews and specific groups too. The Bible is for all.

    May God bless you...
  • John f thornton on Revelation 19:20
    What are other than the children of God? When will we see our faults as failures?
  • Ken - in Reply on Revelation 7
    Hi Bob this is Ken I agree with you on the first two Commandments these are the Commandments of Christ The Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross as you are well aware of by the scriptures Jesus himself said not to put new wine into old wineskins he was referring to the age of Grace the church age in which we are living right now and if repent means to turn from sin then God is a sinner because he repented so many times I can't even count for everyone who wants to know that the Commandments of Christ are 1st John 4:21 and this is the Commandment we have from him that we he who loveth God loves his brother. 1st John 5

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, OUR FAITH......

    5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son of God?

    Revelation 2:11 he that has an ear let him hear what the spirit says to the church is he that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. We learn in 1st John 5 that the Overcomer is the one who puts their faith in Jesus Christ or believes is finished work what is his finished work? John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them this is the work of God that you believe on him who he sent! And when he was talking to the church. And when he told the church in Revelation to repent he wanted them to come back to his first work ,which was to believe on Christ and go forth with that teaching! what they were doing as we have in this day and age and which you have presented is another gospel in which you mingle works with our faith Works cannot come until we have faith.
  • Chris on Psalms 8
    Adam, re: John 14:15. Is Jesus speaking here of the Law that was given to the Jews, or about His commandments? Is there a difference? Jesus came as the fulfilment of God's Laws, i.e. He is God's Law, He came to present the WHOLE Law (Matthew 5:17 ff), He became the Law to everyone who believes (Romans 10:4). So our obedience is not to the Jewish Law which only brought death (2 Corinthians 3:6-17), but to Christ's Law (= Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1-4). I've never intimated that the Law given to the Jews were defective or defunct, but they were no longer binding on those "in Christ", as Christ's new Law = His commandments, go far higher in meaning & application than the old could ever do, & that too, given by God's Grace to us & His Power to us to obey them. So then, does this "New Law" through Jesus make mockery of God's original Law? Never. Jesus came to be its fulfilment in totality (i.e. Ten Commandments plus all the sacrificial & ceremonial Laws), so our obedience to Divine Laws are to be through His Spirit's ministration, as He writes them in our minds & hearts (again I use the 2 Cor 3:6-17 reference).

    I'm sorry Adam, I don't follow your intimation in your succeeding remarks. If you could direct me to my particular quote, since I can't find any of my comments on grace & works in this thread (unless you are referring to my reference in Romans 11:5,6, which is not connected with works & grace in our usual application, but the working of God's Grace that nullifies man's (Jews) strict obedience to the Law to gain merit with God). However, if I've misunderstood your comments in this regard, please refresh me.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Revelation 19:20
    Ric. Interesting read on the Pope. There is a logic to your argument that's well developed. I wonder if the AntiChrist is a name used for both a Political Leader that will take over Europe and the Middle East and a Religious Leader at that time? There are some things John says in Revelation that lead us to believe that Rome is at the heart of the Kingdom the AntiChrist will set up, because of the reference to 7 hills on which Rome was initially built.

    Daniel, as well as Revelation give us a glimpse into the nature and character of the AntiChrist. And here is my question. A new religion surfaced in the 600's that quickly took over the world. Through their followers, they made several attempts to establish a caliphate that embraced the world. Daniel speaks of a new religion that will be dominant when the AntiChrist enters the political and religious scene. We have seen how their attempts to establish a kingdom has been limited. But today, we see its influence increasing, particularly in Europe. An interesting fact is that the Messiah or Mehdi of this religion parallels the description Daniel and John give of the AntiChrist.

    There are two contending religious and political ideologies in the Middle East and Europe, that have been and will be central to all political, religious and military actions.

    1. Given the political and religious climate today, what role do you perceive this new religion will play to achieve peace in the Middle East?

    2. In the rise of the AntiChrist?

    3. In the persecution of Christians and Jews?

    4. In the coming destruction of Israel?

    5. Daniel refers to the armies that will rise against Israel as Persia and John as Babylon. What is the correlation?

    6. What role will this religion play for acceptance of the AntiChrist?

    7. Will this religion accept a peace treaty, other than from their own?

    8. How will this leader establish ties to the Roman Church?

    Daniel 7-12, Joel, Zechariah, Matthew 24, 2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO on 2 Corinthians 7:10
    In the Beginning, God Created the Heavens and the Earth. In it, He placed a Garden. In it, He also placed Adam and Eve. And God declared everything He created, Perfect.

    1. Why didn't the Garden cover all of the earth?

    2. What is the meaning or definition of a Perfect Garden?

    3. How do weeds grow in a Perfect Garden?

    4. How Perfect were the people God created and placed in the Garden?

    5. What are the flaws of Perfection?

    6. If Adam and Eve were Perfect, how was it possible for them to disobey God?

    7. Where did God go wrong with creation?
  • Terasa on 2 Timothy 2
    what does the word Bonds mean in verse 9?

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