Hi Momsage. I have been following this thread by Biblepreacher12 & won't add much to it. All I would ask is, 'what part or ministry does the Holy Spirit exercise in the life of the born again child of God?' Why I ask this, is because in your comments, you've written much about the Ten Commandments & their currency, but nothing about the Holy Spirit's Ministry - so wasn't sure if you take this into account & if so, how do you do so.
What I'm leading to here, is the very limited list of commands given by God to Israel, which certainly doesn't cover the range of sins that man commits (e.g. pride, anger, lust, hypocrisy, deceit, etc). Israel failed in just obeying these few commandments (especially the first two), & we're reminded in James 2:10-12 that "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all..."; such was the outcome of disobedience to it.
Therefore, given that the Decalogue was limited in content & purpose & also the bringing forth of the Everlasting Covenant given through Jesus' Blood, (WITH the Holy Spirit's Ministry in the child of God), I remain wondering as to why the Decalogue must have such great importance to a child of God, when the Spirit adds not only the FULL range of God's Commands, but also gives the believer the power to live them out unto God - something that Israel could not do.
The Decalogue was never designed for this purpose; and Paul reminds us in Romans 8:3,4, that the Law failed in its ability to bring about righteousness, but to be right with God, we walk not after the flesh but by the Spirit. And this new walk by the Spirit is according to the Law of the Spirit ( Romans 8:2) - and His Law(s) have set us free from the Law of sin which brought death (all the Laws under the Old Covenant). How would you reconcile these Scriptures of the Spirit's Work in a believer's life with your position of following the Old Covenant of Laws? Blessings.
Hi Chris. I haven't been able to make myself clear so I'll try again. I am a saved sanctified, Holy Ghost filled christian through the blood of sweet Jesus. I love Him dearly. He is a wonderful blessing in my life. To put what I'm trying to say simply; the 10 commandments of God are the foundation of knowledge of what is the way to Godly living. The blood of Jesus makes it possibly for us to live that way. I'm not saying that church on Sunday is wrong in anyway I just believe our day of physical rest should be done in the way God told us to just like we are told to worship only Him and not use His name in vain like
"OH My God, to not steal or kill or commit lust or lie or envy or worship false Gods, especially through graven images and be loving and respectful of our parents. We live by the 10 commandments because we love God and want to be obedient to Him.
Biblekeeper12 believes no one in the bible was able to live by the 10 commandments or by the other laws GOD gave but there are many who did; Job, Esther, David Danial, Joseph, Joseph and Mary and many more. I would appreciate a reply if you want.
Thank you Momsage, I would love to respond to you - I believe in good healthy discussions. And yes, you have made yourself very clear & I do note with joy that you truly love the Lord Jesus with all your heart.
The point of the argument here is, that you make reference to the Decalogue as "the foundation of knowledge...to Godly living", whereas I reject the Decalogue as having any part in a believer's life; that my 'foundation of knowledge' & faith, is based purely on what Christ has done on the Cross, the bringing in of the New Covenant in His Blood (the better Covenant, Hebrews 8:6-13), & the Spirit's Ministry in a believer's life.
When I consider the new life granted to me in Christ, how could I ever resort to a Law that was designed to show man (the Jew) his sin, his inability to keep the Law, & that only punishment would result? The Decalogue was limited to that - it offered absolutely no power to fully obey & grant salvation. The OT folk who placed their trust in God, looked & waited longingly to God to save them, and this God would do one day. How? Would it be by their obedience to the Law or through the Sacrifice of God's Son Who would open up the way for them also - a certainty into God's Presence?
The Decalogue is not God's complete set of Rules to reveal the innermost workings of man's evil sinful heart. It is but a snapshot of God's Requirements - and even here Israel failed, for who could keep His Laws perfectly (except the Holy Sinless One of God to come). If I fail the LORD by slipping into a sin, it certainly isn't the Decalogue that exposes it - it's the Holy Spirit in me Who convicts me of sin. Maybe, it is for this reason, that many believers feel it's okay to get angry, foster pride, use unholy language, etc.; Why? Well, "it's not in the Ten Commandments, so I'll be fine". But the Spirit searches out our innermost recesses for sin & quickly alerts us.
I realize that it's difficult to let go of the Decalogue, as many of us have learned to recite it, as with the Lord's Prayer, from our early years. But I've come to realize that when we truly examine the purposes of certain Truths given to us in the Bible, we must be pliable enough to let go of that which no longer serves any purpose for those in Christ. Just think how hard it would have been for Paul to let go of the Law which was ingrained into his belief system & practise for so long. But then he could say what he did in Romans 8:2.
Maybe, you could share your understanding of this: why Paul could say that "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" ( Romans 7:12), and then proclaim his 'freedom from the Law that only revealed sin & led to his death'. Seems contradictory. Blessings.
Moses was a law giver, Jesus was a law giver as well. The old laws of Moses nobody coukd keep the sabbath day. Just like today, the moment you get out of bed you broke the Sabbath day. It is not a pick and choose gospel, you keep the Sabbath day you are responsible for the whole book of Leviticus. Jesus became our rest as we rest in his words as the Sabbath day was a day of rest. When you are resting you are not sinning. We sin no more in Christ as he is our rest as God tge Father of Jesus is resting in the words of his Son Jesus. Those days are long gone as Jesus is now Lord of the Sabbath as he is the head of the Sabbath day for rest sake.
Hebrews 4:[8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[10] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Rev 14:13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
James 2:10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
The Decalogue is proof that nobody is without sin. It is Gods eternal law, unchanging like Him. All the universe must abide by these laws. It is the law of heaven.
Now, no human is able to keep the law. All wrong doing is sin. I am saved, but the old man of sin must be put to death daily. I thank Jesus for saving me. I strive to keep the law NOT to be saved but BECAUSE I am saved.
The mark of the beast (catholism-the system, not the people) is a MARK of authority. The beast says worship God on Sunday.
Sunday is a MARK of authority.
Worship God on the seventh day. Saturday. It's in the Decalogue.
What you are telling me Jesus is your minister to do the devil's dirty work to sin? God forbid. If you are saved You do not sin. What do you not understand the words " does not commit sin" and "Cannot sin?" What don't you believe? When Jesus in John 5:14 said, "Go and sin no more"
1st John 3:[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God
If Jesus told you: "Sin no more.You would answer him by saying, "I can't."Or "I don't believe you."Or "No one is able to stop sinning except you.""???
Matthew 3: 1 At that time John the Baptist appeared, preaching in the wilderness of Judea.
2 He said,Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Your just calling Jesus a liar when you claim you can not stop sinning as sin is ungodliness it is of the devil 1st John 3:8. Do you think the grace of God came so that we can still live like bastard children of the devil and no change in our life? God forbid. No sinner can make heaven unless thry repent abd give it up.
Titus 2:11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
[13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Jesus never died to make a new type of sinner? Called a Christian sinner? he died so that we can be free from the devil we can be holy, rightous, santified, perfect, ready to meet him.
If nobody is without sin then nobody is going to heaven. Jesus told people in John 5:14 "go and sin no more." The Bible says in 1st John 3:8 "he that commith sin is of the devil..." no such verse as you sin because you are of God or Jesus. The wages of sin is hell fire and brimstone Romans 6:23. It pays to sin, it pays to serve the devil, your wage or payment is called death and not life eternal. Sinless people after the cross as Christ came to wash away sin and not make a new type of sinner called Christian sinners.
The apostle Paul just like me is an ex-sinner saved by grace Romans 6:18. If nobody can be free from sin, Jesus died for nothing. The Bible makes it clear God does not hear the prayers uttered by sinners John 9:31.
Romans 6:16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 5:19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
[21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The apostle Paul was free from sin after he was saved, Peter, John, James, etc. All ex-sinners as they knew that sin is deceitful and only brings death. Why sin? Why walk in sickness, darkness, and death?
1st John 1:[6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness ((sin)), we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Paul wrote of how difficult it was and that the old man in him had to die daily. No human is without sin and we must confess daily. I'm not saying we WANT to sin. But that we have the unfortunate propensity to sin as long as we are in this body. But, a born again person doesn't willingly sin. It's that perpetual struggle to do right.
Until we draw the last breath , we must battle. And, the battle is ourselves!
The battle is sure agianst ourselves as our own mind wants to take us out of the bible word. A carnal mind is sin abd death. Your own mind is your own worse enemy, never mind the devil. Your ownself can get you out of the bible and loose your salvation. Don't know where you get your gospel from? It is a very perverted Gospel what you preach and not a gospel that Paul preached.
Romans 8:[5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Galations 5:17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Where do you get such gospel that santifcstion is a life long process? It does not exist in the bible. The bible says this.
John 17:17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
The apostle Peter talked about once we have known the truth and turn away from it there is no more sacrifice for sin.
2nd Peter 2:20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Obviously Peter was writing about people who were once santified. Acts chapter 5 Annians and Saphara two holy santified people who decided to do their own thing and obey a different voice, the voice of the devil as the man of God Peter knew who deceived them in not putting their share if the offerings as thry were supposed to.
Acts 5:3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
[4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
[5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
We became sanctified instantly the moment you accept Jesus Christ and his words from the Gospel of Christ.
Col 1:28] Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
We are first justified. Think of it as "just as if we never sinned". We are cleansed and forgiven. Then begins school. The process of becoming like Jesus. And, that is sanctification.
Think about someone saved at Bible camp or retreat. And for a year or so they are on fire. Then, bit by bit, they drift away. They stop learning about God. But, they reassure themselves that they are saved. "Once saved, always saved" is a dangerous lie.
"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line; hear a little and there a little." Isaiah 28:9-10 KJV.
Not justified to remain a sinner, we are justified to be the image of the Son of God. If I am the image of the Son of God Jesus Christ, how can I be the image of the devil st the sametime? You have to ve dead to one sin (the devil) to be alive unto another righteousnes (Jesus Christ). Jesus never died to establish a new type of sinner called a Christian sinner, God forbid. Jesus died so sinners can be Christians can be holy.
Romans 3:24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of -->sins that are past, being now
Again a very backwards teaching as we are washed from sin not cleansed. The reason why you sin and can't stop sinning is because you are a slave to it a slave to the devil. The apostle Paul preached in Romans 6:18 "Being then made free from sin ye become the servants of righteousness" (Jesus) The apostle Paul is just like me an ex-sinner saved by grace.
John 8:34] Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
[35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
[36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
The apostle Paul did not say he sins daily. He dies daily and not to sin, but to the things of the world. We have to die daily as Paul picked up from Jesus teaching.
John 9:41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
We are to be blind remain dead to sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wages of sin is death/hell firer and brimstone. The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. This eliminates 99% of all Christians as they claim they can not be righteous free from sin.
1st Cor 6:9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Romans 6:[20] For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
[21] What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[22] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Good luck in being heard as God does not hear the prays of sinners. We see this everyday people dying in the hospital or looking for an out because of their pain and God hasn't heard them yet. A saved sinner means is a righteous person.
This verse is talking about sinners before salvation who claim they are not sinners, those who want to live their own lives and are to proud to humble themselves to the existence of a righteous God. My mother was like that. She was deeply involved in a domination whose leader claimed there was no hell, other then the one you make for yourselves here on earth, so just be a good person and you will be ok.
I have a question - what is your definition of sin in this doctrine? Are you talking about real sin of disobedience to God or just faults and weaknesses we all face when we first get saved? God shows us these faults and weaknesses and as we pray and trust Him, He will help us overcome them and they will eventually go away. But sin puts enmity between us and God so how can we grow in Him if we are bringing enmity between ourselves and God? Romans 8:7 "and that he might reconcile both unto Him in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh." Those who believe in this doctrine, when I say I don't sin every day, are appalled and believe I'm being prideful. No pride, just peace in knowing I am living a godly life, without sin, because of being emersed in the blood of Jesus and under the power of the Holy Ghost. These doctrine diminishes the blood of Jesus and presents a weakened Holy Ghost.
Dors not cancel what Jesus said or what Paul says to sin no more. 1st John 1:8 is not at all saying "if we say we have no sin that we commit everyday we deceive ourselves. 1st John 1:8 is referring to 1st John 1:3-4 writing to people how to have fellowship with John to be called a Christian and not a sinner any more as all sin is of the devil period 1st John 3:8. When we come to Christ we where all sinners as all has come short of the glory of God Romans 3:23. John is giving out the plan of salvation how to be saved.
All means all not just one or two things in your life. Jesus never died for one sin or two things he died so all sin can be washed forgiven and forgotten.
Get out of get into verse 9 to confess your sin. If you want to be in verse 8 be my guess, you are going to roast, you are going to burn. Verse 9 tells me he is just and able to forgive all sin and NOT just not one or two things.
1st John 1:9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinn((ed)), we make him a liar, and his word is not in us
According to the bible in 1st John 1:6, you are the liar as you claim salvation, you claim fellowship to be a brother of Jesus Christ, and yet you are still walking like the devil hand in hand with him. Obviously, you were told a lie believing you are walking with Jesus when in reality you are walking with the devil in sin.
1st John 1:6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness,((sin)) we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
We are to be dead unto sin once Romans 6:10-12. Jesus died unto sin once and not over and over to sin and repent as you are calling Jesus a liar and putting him to an open shame. No sinner can make heaven no matter how you slice it as all sin is of the devil.
Did Jesus say he was doing away with the sabbath? Nope. He was a rabbi, and kept the sabbath. He is God. He wrote the 10 commandments in stone. Meaning, the commandments are forever. Read the Decalogue!
The Levitical laws were done away with. The sacrificial system was done away with.
Jesus was subject unto God his Father like anybody else
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,.."
God was not Superman to come as a human being he sent his Son Jesus John 3:16. If Jesus was God he sure is the weakest one I ever read as Jesus can do nothing by himself without the spirit of God his Father in him. John 5:30
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
No man can see God's face at anytime as people will die. Moses can never see God's face and neither can we, we only have the Son of God as an example who God his Father really is. Jesus preached God is a spirit John 4:24. Jesus never said that he was God in the whatever and if so nobody would be able to see his face.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Jesus fulfilled the law, which means he died and did everything that was written of him to do. The testimony of two m((en)) is true John 8:7 and not one m((an)). God was not Superman to become flesh, it was his Son as all the prophets of old knew that God had a son.
Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
God never left his throne he sent his Son Jesus and not himself Romans 8:3.
Jesus is God. Jesus is eternal. He has always existed with his father. And, right, nobody can look at the Father. His glory would kill us instantly.
Before Jesus was born in Bethlehem, what was he doing? He was living among his angels, as Michael. Jesus is the one who spoke to Abraham before he destroyed sodom and Gomorrah.
Whenever the Bible speaks of the Angel of the Lord, that is Jesus!!!!
You are not understanding what I am saying. Jesus ETERNAL. He is the WORD. Jesus created everything. Jesus is God.Jesus is not a created being. Since Jesus is eternal, what was he doing before born? Think about it. What was he doing?
His name was Michael the archangel. The leader of the angels. God was living among his creation, the angels.
Wikipedia article for Michael, and at the Protestant section it states:
Citing Hengstenberg, John A. Lees, in International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, states: "The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the 'child' and the archangel in Rev 12:1-17, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel." Charles Haddon Spurgeon, a Trinitarian, stated that Jesus is Michael "the only Archangel", and that he is God the Son, and co-equal to the Father. In Spurgeon's view, "archangel" means "head of the angels" rather than "head angel," and is a title similar to "Prince or Leader of the host." ( Daniel 8:11)
What you are preaching is not true, but a false interpretation of the Word of GOD. Unfortunately you have drunk from the cup of demons and are scattering the chaff you received from them. No surprise for the Word is GOD, self-executing, and by His Spirit warned His people saying:"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly,that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,giving heed to seducing spirits,and doctrines of devils;Speaking lies in hypocrisy;having their conscience seared with hot iron-1Ti.4:1-2
Michael was never born from the womb of Mary, Michael was never the Word made flesh as you suggest and are preaching, actually, what you are preaching it is tares invented by the spirit of lie, or rather, invented by the father of lie- John 8:44-45.
By the way, my Lord JESUS Himself sent Michael for this War against the old Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, now, in the time of Apocalypse, also is called of great Dragon- Revelation 12:9.Take a look. In fact, Michael is very very similar to JESUS, but he is not JESUS,quite the opposite,Michael is subordinate/subject/subaltern to JESUS,understand?
By the way, the MAN CHILD- Revelation 12:1-5-is Michael,not JESUS.
Furthermore, we which are alive and remain unto the coming of my Lord JESUS shall not prevent them which are asleep.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven(in His coming)with a shout,with the voice of the archangel-MICHAEL-,and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first(as is written in Daniel 12:1-3):Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord, according to the preaching of Paul Apostle to the Church of Thessalonians. 1 Thessalonians 4. Take a look.
You must to re-study the matter and to stop preaching that satanic lie of the father of lie. In fact, the battle, the War, is against him and his messengers, not against you in person.
You said in your post that according to John Wesley,"Michael here is commonly supposed to mean Christ."So you are working with the supposition that "The early Protestant leaders believed" it be. And you are also believing in their suppositions and false interpretations of the Word of GOD spreading here and elsewhere what they preached according to their suppositiions, and speculations, and conjectures.
You posted that a certain Joo Gill said: "and is no other than Christ the Son of God, an uncreated angel who is 'one' or the first of the chief princes." But What does the Word of GOD say? Hebrews 1:1-8
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of THE PERSON of GOD the Father, and upholding all things by the word of His power( Matthew 28:18.Take a look), when Had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better THAN THE ANGELS, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent NAME than they.
5For UNTO WHICH OF THE ANGELS said He(GOD the Father)at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son?(Yeah, to which of the angels GOD the Father said that?)
6And again,when GOD bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,He saith, And let all the angels of GOD worship Him.
7And of the angels GOD saith,Who maketh His angels spirits(winds),and His ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son GOD the Father saith:Thy throne,O God,is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
JESUS is God,the KING of the kings,and LORD of the lords,understand?Even Michael said to Joshua:I am the captain of the host of the LORD.(Michael is a lord too)
I attached a link to a source but this site blocked it. No external links allowed.
The Protestant church called Seventh Day Adventists teach on this point. Go to: Seventh Day Adventist Church Biblical Research Institute. Search on the Adventist website: is Michael another name for Jesus. Dated February 13, 2012.
The Seventh Day Adventists chose this name because they keep the seventh day sabbath. The Adventists eagerly look forward the soon return of Christ. Additionally, they teach the three angels message from Revelation. "Worship God, Babylon has fallen, come out of her, my people".
Again a very backwards teaching. Genesis 1:26 the words "Let us" and NOT "Let me" plural as God was talking to somebody in heaven and it was not Lucifer. God was talking to his Son as the bible tells us that there was always somebody with God at all times in the old testament. To say that Jesus was God and was one of the angels or whatever funny teachings you received from church is not the bible truth but some perverted doctrine of devils and seducing spirit. God had a Son known as the Holy One in the bible in the old testament. God the Son is just a man made gospel from the pit of hell as God the Son never lived a day on the earth, more or less die for my sins. Can't make the blind to see or lame to walk in the name of God the Son. The Son of God Jesus Christ sure can make the blind to seem death to hear and lame to walk. The Holy One came down not God. God was not Superman to become a human being. Don't know where you get such funny gospel that Jesus was one of the angles or Jesus is God.
What I'm leading to here, is the very limited list of commands given by God to Israel, which certainly doesn't cover the range of sins that man commits (e.g. pride, anger, lust, hypocrisy, deceit, etc). Israel failed in just obeying these few commandments (especially the first two), & we're reminded in James 2:10-12 that "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all..."; such was the outcome of disobedience to it.
Therefore, given that the Decalogue was limited in content & purpose & also the bringing forth of the Everlasting Covenant given through Jesus' Blood, (WITH the Holy Spirit's Ministry in the child of God), I remain wondering as to why the Decalogue must have such great importance to a child of God, when the Spirit adds not only the FULL range of God's Commands, but also gives the believer the power to live them out unto God - something that Israel could not do.
The Decalogue was never designed for this purpose; and Paul reminds us in Romans 8:3,4, that the Law failed in its ability to bring about righteousness, but to be right with God, we walk not after the flesh but by the Spirit. And this new walk by the Spirit is according to the Law of the Spirit ( Romans 8:2) - and His Law(s) have set us free from the Law of sin which brought death (all the Laws under the Old Covenant). How would you reconcile these Scriptures of the Spirit's Work in a believer's life with your position of following the Old Covenant of Laws? Blessings.
"OH My God, to not steal or kill or commit lust or lie or envy or worship false Gods, especially through graven images and be loving and respectful of our parents. We live by the 10 commandments because we love God and want to be obedient to Him.
Biblekeeper12 believes no one in the bible was able to live by the 10 commandments or by the other laws GOD gave but there are many who did; Job, Esther, David Danial, Joseph, Joseph and Mary and many more. I would appreciate a reply if you want.
God bless you.
Thank you Momsage, I would love to respond to you - I believe in good healthy discussions. And yes, you have made yourself very clear & I do note with joy that you truly love the Lord Jesus with all your heart.
The point of the argument here is, that you make reference to the Decalogue as "the foundation of knowledge...to Godly living", whereas I reject the Decalogue as having any part in a believer's life; that my 'foundation of knowledge' & faith, is based purely on what Christ has done on the Cross, the bringing in of the New Covenant in His Blood (the better Covenant, Hebrews 8:6-13), & the Spirit's Ministry in a believer's life.
When I consider the new life granted to me in Christ, how could I ever resort to a Law that was designed to show man (the Jew) his sin, his inability to keep the Law, & that only punishment would result? The Decalogue was limited to that - it offered absolutely no power to fully obey & grant salvation. The OT folk who placed their trust in God, looked & waited longingly to God to save them, and this God would do one day. How? Would it be by their obedience to the Law or through the Sacrifice of God's Son Who would open up the way for them also - a certainty into God's Presence?
The Decalogue is not God's complete set of Rules to reveal the innermost workings of man's evil sinful heart. It is but a snapshot of God's Requirements - and even here Israel failed, for who could keep His Laws perfectly (except the Holy Sinless One of God to come). If I fail the LORD by slipping into a sin, it certainly isn't the Decalogue that exposes it - it's the Holy Spirit in me Who convicts me of sin. Maybe, it is for this reason, that many believers feel it's okay to get angry, foster pride, use unholy language, etc.; Why? Well, "it's not in the Ten Commandments, so I'll be fine". But the Spirit searches out our innermost recesses for sin & quickly alerts us.
I realize that it's difficult to let go of the Decalogue, as many of us have learned to recite it, as with the Lord's Prayer, from our early years. But I've come to realize that when we truly examine the purposes of certain Truths given to us in the Bible, we must be pliable enough to let go of that which no longer serves any purpose for those in Christ. Just think how hard it would have been for Paul to let go of the Law which was ingrained into his belief system & practise for so long. But then he could say what he did in Romans 8:2.
Maybe, you could share your understanding of this: why Paul could say that "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" ( Romans 7:12), and then proclaim his 'freedom from the Law that only revealed sin & led to his death'. Seems contradictory. Blessings.
Hebrews 4:[8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[10] For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Rev 14:13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
James 2:10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Now, no human is able to keep the law. All wrong doing is sin. I am saved, but the old man of sin must be put to death daily. I thank Jesus for saving me. I strive to keep the law NOT to be saved but BECAUSE I am saved.
The mark of the beast (catholism-the system, not the people) is a MARK of authority. The beast says worship God on Sunday.
Sunday is a MARK of authority.
Worship God on the seventh day. Saturday. It's in the Decalogue.
1st John 3:[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God
If Jesus told you: "Sin no more.You would answer him by saying, "I can't."Or "I don't believe you."Or "No one is able to stop sinning except you.""???
Matthew 3: 1 At that time John the Baptist appeared, preaching in the wilderness of Judea.
2 He said,Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Your just calling Jesus a liar when you claim you can not stop sinning as sin is ungodliness it is of the devil 1st John 3:8. Do you think the grace of God came so that we can still live like bastard children of the devil and no change in our life? God forbid. No sinner can make heaven unless thry repent abd give it up.
Titus 2:11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
[13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Jesus never died to make a new type of sinner? Called a Christian sinner? he died so that we can be free from the devil we can be holy, rightous, santified, perfect, ready to meet him.
The apostle Paul just like me is an ex-sinner saved by grace Romans 6:18. If nobody can be free from sin, Jesus died for nothing. The Bible makes it clear God does not hear the prayers uttered by sinners John 9:31.
Romans 6:16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 5:19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
[21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The apostle Paul was free from sin after he was saved, Peter, John, James, etc. All ex-sinners as they knew that sin is deceitful and only brings death. Why sin? Why walk in sickness, darkness, and death?
1st John 1:[6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness ((sin)), we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Until we draw the last breath , we must battle. And, the battle is ourselves!
Romans 8:[5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Galations 5:17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
ALL wrong doing is sin. Unfortunately, we are soldiers in a war until we draw our last breath.
John 17:17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
The apostle Peter talked about once we have known the truth and turn away from it there is no more sacrifice for sin.
2nd Peter 2:20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Obviously Peter was writing about people who were once santified. Acts chapter 5 Annians and Saphara two holy santified people who decided to do their own thing and obey a different voice, the voice of the devil as the man of God Peter knew who deceived them in not putting their share if the offerings as thry were supposed to.
Acts 5:3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
[4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
[5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
We became sanctified instantly the moment you accept Jesus Christ and his words from the Gospel of Christ.
Col 1:28] Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Think about someone saved at Bible camp or retreat. And for a year or so they are on fire. Then, bit by bit, they drift away. They stop learning about God. But, they reassure themselves that they are saved. "Once saved, always saved" is a dangerous lie.
"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line; hear a little and there a little." Isaiah 28:9-10 KJV.
Romans 3:24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of -->sins that are past, being now
John 8:34] Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
[35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
[36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
The apostle Paul did not say he sins daily. He dies daily and not to sin, but to the things of the world. We have to die daily as Paul picked up from Jesus teaching.
John 9:41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
We are to be blind remain dead to sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wages of sin is death/hell firer and brimstone. The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. This eliminates 99% of all Christians as they claim they can not be righteous free from sin.
1st Cor 6:9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Romans 6:[20] For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
[21] What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[22] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Good luck in being heard as God does not hear the prays of sinners. We see this everyday people dying in the hospital or looking for an out because of their pain and God hasn't heard them yet. A saved sinner means is a righteous person.
I have a question - what is your definition of sin in this doctrine? Are you talking about real sin of disobedience to God or just faults and weaknesses we all face when we first get saved? God shows us these faults and weaknesses and as we pray and trust Him, He will help us overcome them and they will eventually go away. But sin puts enmity between us and God so how can we grow in Him if we are bringing enmity between ourselves and God? Romans 8:7 "and that he might reconcile both unto Him in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh." Those who believe in this doctrine, when I say I don't sin every day, are appalled and believe I'm being prideful. No pride, just peace in knowing I am living a godly life, without sin, because of being emersed in the blood of Jesus and under the power of the Holy Ghost. These doctrine diminishes the blood of Jesus and presents a weakened Holy Ghost.
All means all not just one or two things in your life. Jesus never died for one sin or two things he died so all sin can be washed forgiven and forgotten.
Get out of get into verse 9 to confess your sin. If you want to be in verse 8 be my guess, you are going to roast, you are going to burn. Verse 9 tells me he is just and able to forgive all sin and NOT just not one or two things.
1st John 1:9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinn((ed)), we make him a liar, and his word is not in us
According to the bible in 1st John 1:6, you are the liar as you claim salvation, you claim fellowship to be a brother of Jesus Christ, and yet you are still walking like the devil hand in hand with him. Obviously, you were told a lie believing you are walking with Jesus when in reality you are walking with the devil in sin.
1st John 1:6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness,((sin)) we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
We are to be dead unto sin once Romans 6:10-12. Jesus died unto sin once and not over and over to sin and repent as you are calling Jesus a liar and putting him to an open shame. No sinner can make heaven no matter how you slice it as all sin is of the devil.
The Levitical laws were done away with. The sacrificial system was done away with.
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,.."
God was not Superman to come as a human being he sent his Son Jesus John 3:16. If Jesus was God he sure is the weakest one I ever read as Jesus can do nothing by himself without the spirit of God his Father in him. John 5:30
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
No man can see God's face at anytime as people will die. Moses can never see God's face and neither can we, we only have the Son of God as an example who God his Father really is. Jesus preached God is a spirit John 4:24. Jesus never said that he was God in the whatever and if so nobody would be able to see his face.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Jesus fulfilled the law, which means he died and did everything that was written of him to do. The testimony of two m((en)) is true John 8:7 and not one m((an)). God was not Superman to become flesh, it was his Son as all the prophets of old knew that God had a son.
Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
God never left his throne he sent his Son Jesus and not himself Romans 8:3.
Before Jesus was born in Bethlehem, what was he doing? He was living among his angels, as Michael. Jesus is the one who spoke to Abraham before he destroyed sodom and Gomorrah.
Whenever the Bible speaks of the Angel of the Lord, that is Jesus!!!!
Research that.
His name was Michael the archangel. The leader of the angels. God was living among his creation, the angels.
How is that far fetched?
Shabbat Keeper, where in the Bible does it say that Michael the archangel is God?
Citing Hengstenberg, John A. Lees, in International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, states: "The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the 'child' and the archangel in Rev 12:1-17, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel." Charles Haddon Spurgeon, a Trinitarian, stated that Jesus is Michael "the only Archangel", and that he is God the Son, and co-equal to the Father. In Spurgeon's view, "archangel" means "head of the angels" rather than "head angel," and is a title similar to "Prince or Leader of the host." ( Daniel 8:11)
What you are preaching is not true, but a false interpretation of the Word of GOD. Unfortunately you have drunk from the cup of demons and are scattering the chaff you received from them. No surprise for the Word is GOD, self-executing, and by His Spirit warned His people saying:"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly,that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,giving heed to seducing spirits,and doctrines of devils;Speaking lies in hypocrisy;having their conscience seared with hot iron-1Ti.4:1-2
Michael was never born from the womb of Mary, Michael was never the Word made flesh as you suggest and are preaching, actually, what you are preaching it is tares invented by the spirit of lie, or rather, invented by the father of lie- John 8:44-45.
By the way, my Lord JESUS Himself sent Michael for this War against the old Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, now, in the time of Apocalypse, also is called of great Dragon- Revelation 12:9.Take a look. In fact, Michael is very very similar to JESUS, but he is not JESUS,quite the opposite,Michael is subordinate/subject/subaltern to JESUS,understand?
By the way, the MAN CHILD- Revelation 12:1-5-is Michael,not JESUS.
Furthermore, we which are alive and remain unto the coming of my Lord JESUS shall not prevent them which are asleep.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven(in His coming)with a shout,with the voice of the archangel-MICHAEL-,and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first(as is written in Daniel 12:1-3):Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord, according to the preaching of Paul Apostle to the Church of Thessalonians. 1 Thessalonians 4. Take a look.
You must to re-study the matter and to stop preaching that satanic lie of the father of lie. In fact, the battle, the War, is against him and his messengers, not against you in person.
The Word is GOD,self-executable,understand?
John Gill:"and is no other than Christ the Son of God, an uncreated angel who is 'one' or the first of the chief princes."
The early Protestant leaders believed this.
You said in your post that according to John Wesley,"Michael here is commonly supposed to mean Christ."So you are working with the supposition that "The early Protestant leaders believed" it be. And you are also believing in their suppositions and false interpretations of the Word of GOD spreading here and elsewhere what they preached according to their suppositiions, and speculations, and conjectures.
You posted that a certain Joo Gill said: "and is no other than Christ the Son of God, an uncreated angel who is 'one' or the first of the chief princes." But What does the Word of GOD say? Hebrews 1:1-8
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of THE PERSON of GOD the Father, and upholding all things by the word of His power( Matthew 28:18.Take a look), when Had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better THAN THE ANGELS, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent NAME than they.
5For UNTO WHICH OF THE ANGELS said He(GOD the Father)at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son?(Yeah, to which of the angels GOD the Father said that?)
6And again,when GOD bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,He saith, And let all the angels of GOD worship Him.
7And of the angels GOD saith,Who maketh His angels spirits(winds),and His ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son GOD the Father saith:Thy throne,O God,is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
JESUS is God,the KING of the kings,and LORD of the lords,understand?Even Michael said to Joshua:I am the captain of the host of the LORD.(Michael is a lord too)
The Protestant church called Seventh Day Adventists teach on this point. Go to: Seventh Day Adventist Church Biblical Research Institute. Search on the Adventist website: is Michael another name for Jesus. Dated February 13, 2012.
The Seventh Day Adventists chose this name because they keep the seventh day sabbath. The Adventists eagerly look forward the soon return of Christ. Additionally, they teach the three angels message from Revelation. "Worship God, Babylon has fallen, come out of her, my people".
Habakkuk 3:[3] God came from Teman, -->andand