Thank you for sharing your understanding on this topic. I always enjoy my discussions with you. We are in agreement that God is love. In fact, God is Agape, the highest form of love that exists. We are in agreement that God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked. That's why He has provided a way for the wicked to be redeemed. We are in agreement that God does not want us to perish. Some take this word perish to mean cease to exist completely. Some teach annihilation. That, I do not agree with. I also don't agree that Hell is only the grave because both believers and non-believers alike are going to end up in a grave (unless the Lord comes for us first).
I agree that the bible tells in Ezekiel Chapter 18 that the soul that sinneth shall die. I believe it is the soul that makes up our entire being. Can our fleshly body exist without a soul? As far as salvation goes, did Christ come to redeem our flesh, or did He come to redeem our soul? I say that my soul has been redeemed, not my flesh. My flesh is rotten to the core! I agree that there are different degrees of punishment, but as you know, I also believe that whatever the degree of punishment is, it will be forever.
In my studies of the Greek, I have come to learn that the word for death means separation. This is why I believe that when our physical body of flesh dies, our soul will separate from our fleshly body. The body will rot and decay in the grave, not cease to exist as some say. I do not believe in soul sleep.
I do agree with you that eternal life is a promise. However, what we differ on is when this eternal life begins. For me, I believe I have eternal life right now. There are several verses in scripture that speak of eternal life/salvation being present tense ( 1 John 5:11, 1 John 5:13, John 17:3, John 10:28-30, John 3:36, John 4:14, 1 Timothy 6:12). These are just some verses that speak of eternal salvation being present, not future.
First, let me say thank you for your response. Honestly, I didn't think you were going to respond. I wasn't even sure that you would read what I posted after seeing my name, knowing that we differ in some of our beliefs. You mentioned that you don't read all the comments as you don't have the time to do so. That is understandable. I don't think any of us have the time to read every single comment here. I wish I had the time to do so because I like to read the things people have to say, whether I agree or disagree.
Jema, I can't say that I've read all of your posts, but I can say that I have read most of your posts and I will continue to do so because I enjoy reading them. You have always given me the impression of being a very kind and caring person. Also, your love for the Lord is quite obvious and I would never question that.
You also mentioned in one of your posts that you "always look out for people asking questions." Well, I asked you some questions (maybe too many?), but you chose not to answer any of them. Is it because I was questioning something you believed? On an open forum, we should expect to be questioned from time to time on what we say, and if someone disagrees on something and asks where in the bible can they find the things we are saying, we should at least point them to the scriptures and at least be open to discussion of those scriptures.
Jema, you said that you have explained your beliefs on here before. I asked, "Where in the bible does it say that the soul will cease to exist?" If you have already explained this in a previous post and I missed it, then I do apologize. I will go back and look for your explanation on that. Can you at least estimate how long ago it was that you explained how the soul ceases to exist so it might be easier for me to find?
I'm sorry, I didn't mean this to be this long. I need a little more space if you don't mind? I will send a part 2.
My understanding is everyone will face judgment there is the first resurrection in Rev. 20 and the white throne judgment of all who have lived excluding those in the first resurrection who have already received their glorified bodies and judged, Rev. 20:4 and have been reigning with Jesus for a thousand years.
The second resurrection and judgment is called the second death, in this judgment, all who are not found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and they will perish, this punishment based on their works is everlasting to be no more, not an eternal conscious torment. We are given an example in Jude 1:7 of how the wicked will perish, the same way Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in the eternal fire for eternity never to be again.
Just a little of how I understand it, I know you know the Greek words' meaning better than I do, thank you.
Of course, I do not mind, you have always treated me with respect and care.
What John 11:25-26 means to me. Jesus is the resurrection, His perfect life when He died on the cross and was buried in a tomb death could not hold Him. To me, it is the gospel, the simplicity of Jesus Christ, the message of salvation, and our hope in eternal life. Even if we die, we who believe in Jesus Christ will live as we see in John 5:29 the resurrection of life.
We sleep in death, but we have the promise of eternal life, we will never die. Those of the wicked and lost will face the second death, the permanent death of no return. As Jesus asked Martha do you believe this, regardless of what we face and the struggles and doubts we have in this world we go through in this fleshly body, all of our hope and trust must be in Jesus, who is the truth, the light, and what He said will come to be.
In Luke 16:19-31, we read about the rich man and Lazarus. What I notice is that they both died. It speaks of the rich man being in Hades, and being in torment. What is interesting if you read through that section, the rich man can feel, he can speak, he can see, he can remember, and he is in torment. Notice in Verse 26 that there is a great gulf fixed and no one is able to cross over from one side to the other. There is no hope for those on the opposite side of Abraham's bosom. The question here is, why didn't the rich man cease to exist when he died?
In Mark 9:43-47, even though this is not literally talking about plucking your eye out or cutting off your hand, it does speak of some entering into life, and some being cast into Hell. If the wicked one who has rejected Christ dies and ceases to exist, how can he be cast into Hell?
In Revelation 20:5, it tells us that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Obviously, there must have been a previous resurrection because this talks about the rest of the dead not being resurrected until after the 1,000-year reign. How can those who cease to exist be resurrected? How do you raise or resurrect something that does not exist?
John 5:29 says, "And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Again, how do you resurrect and judge someone that does not exist?
Again, in Luke 16:28, the rich man says, "For I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." This rich man is in a place of torment. He did not cease to exist when he died. Why not?
I just have a few more questions if you don't mind, so I will need one more post.
Where in the bible does it say that the soul will cease to exist? If anyone ceases to exist when they die, can you please answer these questions. I will be the student here, so you have my attention. If you choose to answer these things, I do thank you ahead of time.
In Matthew 25:46, Is this not describing two classes of people, those who received Christ and belong to Him, and those who have rejected Him? If those who reject Him die and cease to exist, how can they go away into eternal punishment if they do not exist?
Revelation 14:11 says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night. How can this be for someone that does not exist?
Hebrews 9:27 tells us that it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. How can anyone who dies and ceases to exist be judged since this judgment comes (after) death?
Revelation 21:8 identifies a class of individuals who will end up in the lake of fire, and it also mentions that this is the second death. If they went through the first death and ceased to exist, how can they experience a second death if they do not exist?
2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that they will suffer the punishment of (eternal destruction), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. How is ceasing to exist considered suffering?
Jema, since Romans 6:23 has been quoted which says that the wages of sin is death, how do you get cease to exist out of this word death when the Greek word used (Thanatos) means separation, not cessation of life? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that at death, there is a separation from our physical body since this is what the word death means?
Revelation 14:10 talks about being tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Who is this for and how long will this torment last?
I have more questions to follow. Thank you for your time.
Are you saying, Shabbat Keeper, that it would be a scary thought that unbelievers will just cease to exist upon dying? Just clarifying. But if that is the case, I doubt if it would be scary for them since they have already died ( Ecclesiastes 9:5) - or have I missed something?
If I were an unbeliever & continued to resist the Gospel of Salvation, knowing that only death & no more was the end of my mortal existence, I would live it up even more while I still have breath - for tomorrow I die & will be no more. What then is the Gospel that we preach? For what purpose did Christ have to come & die? Why did He have to bear the sins of the world with God's Wrath/Punishment, if the unbeliever has none of it to confront him after death? And lastly, if death alone is the punishment, then both believer & unbeliever alike have to face death one day if the Lord tarries. Now if the believer by his faith & God's Mercy never ever tastes of physical death (maybe he gets to old age & then raptured), then maybe there is some small message of hope to the unbeliever in such a Gospel.
Hi Chris, I was thinking, overall, what an icky thought it is, to stop existing.
I know people that don't believe in Christ. They are so secular that they are disinterested and bored with the topic of their eternal destination, Sad.
But, you brought up a whole new subject that bears discussion. And, that would be the rapture. I believed in the rapture for a good thirty plus years. It was a shock to my system (it even made me angry) to discover that there is no rapture of the Left Behind type.
I did to a great deal of reading, both for and against the rapture. It is too big a topic for this forum. Suffice it to say, if we look at the Biblical history, we will be here for tribulation. But, God will protect and provide as he did for the Israelites at the Exodus. And, as he provided a way out of Jerusalem in AD 70 for the Christian's.
"Say to them of a fearful heart, Behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense, He will come and save you." This verse brings tears of relief to me and makes me want to hug God.
Actually Shabbat Keeper, I wasn't intending to bring up the Rapture debate here, as it has been well discussed over the years. Rather, I was intending to give, maybe a rather flimsy example of a type of Gospel message, telling unbelievers that "when we turn to the Lord for forgiveness of our sins & receiving Christ into our life, then we will not face (physical) death, but just be raptured (caught up, as with Enoch/Elijah), to forever be with him". Here then would be something for the unbeliever to consider, because as sure as day turns into night, we all (believer & unbeliever alike) will face death - whether this thought leaves an 'icky' feeling in us depends on how we view death. So, rapture is not my issue here, but why is death any more of a punishment when we all have to die & knowing that death (of the body) means a complete eradication of any iota of life (in body, breath, mind, & senses). Often death is welcome, especially for the terminally ill or suffering, & whether or not one experiences a new pain-free joyful existence in the Lord's Presence or not, holds little attraction if there is no more consciousness in death or after it.
If death is the only punishment to the Christ-rejecter, then why do we all have to die? And if I might ask (verses that some don't care to address), why are there so many Scriptures to warn us that physical death is not the end (e.g. Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15); all these pointing to the reality of an eternal torment? As one who doesn't believe in such an eternity, I ask you (as I've done in the past with others), why are these Scriptures rejected so as to support an emotion-charged belief rather than a biblical Truth? Why do we reject or re-write these passages to suit us, when they're given direct from the Mouth of our Lord?
Thank you Shabbat Keeper for coming back to me. I'll respond to your three recent posts to me with my one here.
Firstly, on the name 'Gehenna', otherwise called the "Valley of Hinnom", the Encyclopaedia definition is quite correct about the purpose why that area was set aside. It was indeed a place for the burning of refuse & the dead. And yes, it meant that they were all annihilated - no more evidence except dust & ashes. So, it can mean 'annihilation', but Gehenna can also mean 'a place of burning where the fires are never quenched'. And we know that the body is disposed of there, but what about the immaterial parts of man that remains accountable to God? And you also referenced a verse I quoted in Matthew 10:28. Taken on its own, that verse could well support your belief of a complete extermination of body, soul & spirit.
But it was for that very reason that I gave you the other verses to look up & consider. Not only was Matthew 10:28 Jesus' Words, but also Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15. You didn't take these into account. And we know, as I trust you are conversant, that when we deal with a topic or a doctrine from the Bible, we need to take in all the references that deal specifically with it. Unfortunately, our natural human instinct is to accept only those that we find palatable or in agreement with, thus distorting the teaching from the Word.
So, if you would care to look at those other verses & see how they affect your understanding of Matthew 10:28, I would be very interested. It's only when we consider all verses on a subject, can we get a fuller picture of it meaning & its implications. However, sometimes there aren't too many verses to help us learn about the subject - in such cases we can't force a teaching by them & just leave the subject open. Yet, not so with these important doctrines of the Deity of Christ & human existence & punishment after death.
Luke 16:19-31 was a common PARABLE of that time. Jesus was using it as a TEACHING lesson. And, by the way, this Lazarus in the story is not the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.
In no way, was Jesus saying the dead suffer in a state of torment. Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!
Again, dealing with your recent comments to me, now in one post, Shabbat Keeper. Firstly, Adam has written very well to Jema, so I won't bring up the matter of the definition of "eternal/eternity", which should alone convince us that physical death is not the end for anyone (believer or unbeliever).
If I'm correct from your first post to me, "what an icky thought it is, to stop existing", you believe in the total annihilation of the body at death (for the unbeliever). So, when the Bible speaks of man, his existence & his death, we are first reminded that man is a tripartite being (i.e. one whose composition is of body, soul & spirit: 1 Thessalonians 5:23). When the body dies, it decomposes back to the Earth, but those parts of man that cannot be killed ( Matthew 10:28) can never be destroyed. Unlike animals, man's spirit, given by God, returns to Him ( Ecclesiastes 3:21), whereas animals cease to exist - forever. Therefore, if man, made by God to reflect His Image & traits, is accountable to God, will never cease to exist (his spirit & soul cannot be destroyed, whether by death, fire, or whatever), & he will stand in judgement before God. For this reason, the Gospel is so vital for all to hear, to alert all people that death is not final - there remains an accountability & their final judgement will be based on what they have done with Jesus Who came for them.
You wrote, "Hell fire is the same thing as destruction" & you gave the example of a house on fire. A house is physical/material, a spirit is not - it can never be destroyed. The real Shabbat Keeper or myself are found in our spirits/souls - the body is simply the house in which we need to live in. So yes, this house is corrupt & temporal, but we who have Christ's Spirit in us, look to be clothed (endowed) with that "house which is from heaven" ( 2 Corinthians 5:1-6). Likewise, hell (not the grave), is the dwelling place of those who have spurned God's Love - spirits they are & in torment.
Jesus in His teaching on this (& this account was not a parable as it does not meet the definition of a parable) is found in Luke 16:20-31, showing that the spirit of man must go somewhere. In the OT economy, where Hades was that temporary residence of departed souls till the Cross, Jesus still taught that there was consciousness in the after-life & also places of rest & waiting and also of torment. And Jesus was giving a real view of life beyond the grave, or else by naming people & places, He was just a deceiver. Jesus never did that; all His parables were without specifics, just everyday situations to which there was a special meaning. Luke 16 is not a parable but a view of the after-life - and He should know.
"Hell is a finality.", you wrote. No, Hell & Heaven are only the beginning. Our lives on Earth are but a quick snapshot of time compared to an everlasting existence, whether in God's Presence or in torment. And finally, you stated a good question, "Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!" What Jesus was teaching here is that the departed spirit can still feel agony, just as there can be joy & celebration (e.g. Luke 15:10). The spirit of this 'rich man' wasn't thirsty for even a sip of water - he was in torment, & sought comfort, ANY comfort, to relieve him of his agony. Would any amount of water have helped him - I seriously doubt it, but our earthly comparison to this would be, "a drowning man will clutch at a straw" to try & save himself, & would fit the Luke 16 account. And the rich man even pleaded that his brothers would be warned now while still alive, lest they come into such an awful place. So the actual fundamental question remains is: since the Word of God is replete with accounts of the awfulness of a Christ-less eternity, are we going to take the warnings given in it as just a story/a parable/a fable or believe in Jesus & the apostles' words?
The fire that shall never be quenched means it is irreversible. Look at the remains of sodom and Gomorrah that can be seen today. There are outlines of the buildings in the area near the Dead Sea. Archeological proof of the wrath of God.
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and its outlying towns have been a permanent destruction. This is an object lesson for us.
Mark 9:43
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
Again , this verse that you listed does not speak of the soul burning for eternity.
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matt 5:29 KJV.
Hell is a finality. It's the end of the road. The "whole body" is the body along with the soul.
Hi Chris, This verse you mentioned does not speak of the soul's eternal burning. It speaks of destruction.
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
Matthew 5:22
Hell fire is the same thing as destruction. For example, if my house were on fire, it would destroyed. And, once it burns down, there would be nothing left but smoke rising from the debris.
Hi Chris, this comment is in reply to what happens to the condemned soul.
The following quotes the New World Encyclopedia on Gehenna.
"The valley forms the southwest border of ancient Jerusalem that stretches from the foot of Mt. Zion to the Kidron Valley. It is first mentioned in Joshua 15:8. Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. In addition, this valley was frequently not controlled by the Jewish authority within the city walls; it is traditionally held that this valley was used as a place of religious child-sacrifice to Moloch by the Canaanites outside the city (comp. Jer. 2: 23).
Like Sheol, Gehenna is sometimes translated as Hell."
Notice: "FIRES WERE KEPT BURNING TO CONSUME THE REFUSE"
The soul that sins will be burnt up and be eternal gone. Like sodom and Gomorrah. Burnt up and gone. Ashes under our feet.
This is in response to our earlier conversation. Does the condemned soul ceases to exist or does the condemned soul burn for eternity. The below verse was an example you gave of eternal burning.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28 KJV.
This verse NOT proof of eternal burning. It IS proof that the condemned soul CEASES to exist. God destroys BOTH soul and body.
Yes, there is an eternal joyous life for those who submit to God, so also there is eternal suffering for those who reject Him. How do you look at these verses? Are they to be avoided, re-interpreted, just given in error, or whatever one may choose to apply to them?
These are the matters we face here in addressing core biblical issues of eternity, the trinity, second coming, etc. And they are important; how we believe them & then share the Gospel with others can prove the genuineness of their faith when turning to Christ. I believe this is one major reason that we see an over-abundance of 'spurious faith' (i.e. a faith not based on the full Gospel message of the Bible, but with a leaning towards 'turn to Jesus & all will be well with your soul & live happily ever after in His Kingdom'). This is not the reason that Jesus came from His Glory ( John 17:5) to Earth to die a sinner's death - He came to give a Divinely prepared path & a living hope for the lost sinner to not face eternal condemnation: that's why it took the Son of God to come & lay down His Life, or else why not a spotless Heaven-provided Lamb? God laid down His Life through His Son which speaks to us of Love that is truly Agape & of the seriousness of our sins before Him & the certainty of His eternal Judgement to those who spurn that Love & offer of forgiveness. I'm sorry to have written at length on this subject, as it's one that is very close to my heart, when considering the great worth & cost of our salvation, in light of the Scriptures & of my own testimony.
Hi Chris, I feel your love for God in all that you write. I want to say that, from my perspective, the difference with us Christian's dying ( compared to nonbelievers) is that we will be resurrected and our body will be rejoined to our soul. That fact makes dying, now, not as scary. Because we will sleep, and not be really dead.
Well, thank you Shabbat Keeper, but I was hoping you would have addressed some of those verses I shared that speak of an eternal condemnation & suffering. Many of us, over time, have put out those passages to those who believe as you, but unfortunately, none have given an adequate response as to their 'actual meaning'. If it were true that the Love of God is so great that it would be impossible for Him to confine any unsaved soul into a suffering eternity, my question then is, what are we to do with those Scriptures that show us to the contrary? If those Scriptures weren't there, then of course, I could certainly be persuaded to think of death & eternity as you (& others) do. But they are there & can't be avoided, no matter how much we try to diminish them or persuade our consciences that there must be some other unknown reason for them being there; seeing that Jesus Himself said what He did about eternity. I study the Bible as you do, so I hope that when you re-look at those passages, you will understand & grasp what the Scriptures actually reveal & not rely on personal perceptions & feelings, which can only cloud the Truth.
(Part 1 of 2):
Thank you for sharing your understanding on this topic. I always enjoy my discussions with you. We are in agreement that God is love. In fact, God is Agape, the highest form of love that exists. We are in agreement that God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked. That's why He has provided a way for the wicked to be redeemed. We are in agreement that God does not want us to perish. Some take this word perish to mean cease to exist completely. Some teach annihilation. That, I do not agree with. I also don't agree that Hell is only the grave because both believers and non-believers alike are going to end up in a grave (unless the Lord comes for us first).
I agree that the bible tells in Ezekiel Chapter 18 that the soul that sinneth shall die. I believe it is the soul that makes up our entire being. Can our fleshly body exist without a soul? As far as salvation goes, did Christ come to redeem our flesh, or did He come to redeem our soul? I say that my soul has been redeemed, not my flesh. My flesh is rotten to the core! I agree that there are different degrees of punishment, but as you know, I also believe that whatever the degree of punishment is, it will be forever.
In my studies of the Greek, I have come to learn that the word for death means separation. This is why I believe that when our physical body of flesh dies, our soul will separate from our fleshly body. The body will rot and decay in the grave, not cease to exist as some say. I do not believe in soul sleep.
I do agree with you that eternal life is a promise. However, what we differ on is when this eternal life begins. For me, I believe I have eternal life right now. There are several verses in scripture that speak of eternal life/salvation being present tense ( 1 John 5:11, 1 John 5:13, John 17:3, John 10:28-30, John 3:36, John 4:14, 1 Timothy 6:12). These are just some verses that speak of eternal salvation being present, not future.
Part 2 to follow...
First, let me say thank you for your response. Honestly, I didn't think you were going to respond. I wasn't even sure that you would read what I posted after seeing my name, knowing that we differ in some of our beliefs. You mentioned that you don't read all the comments as you don't have the time to do so. That is understandable. I don't think any of us have the time to read every single comment here. I wish I had the time to do so because I like to read the things people have to say, whether I agree or disagree.
Jema, I can't say that I've read all of your posts, but I can say that I have read most of your posts and I will continue to do so because I enjoy reading them. You have always given me the impression of being a very kind and caring person. Also, your love for the Lord is quite obvious and I would never question that.
You also mentioned in one of your posts that you "always look out for people asking questions." Well, I asked you some questions (maybe too many?), but you chose not to answer any of them. Is it because I was questioning something you believed? On an open forum, we should expect to be questioned from time to time on what we say, and if someone disagrees on something and asks where in the bible can they find the things we are saying, we should at least point them to the scriptures and at least be open to discussion of those scriptures.
Jema, you said that you have explained your beliefs on here before. I asked, "Where in the bible does it say that the soul will cease to exist?" If you have already explained this in a previous post and I missed it, then I do apologize. I will go back and look for your explanation on that. Can you at least estimate how long ago it was that you explained how the soul ceases to exist so it might be easier for me to find?
I'm sorry, I didn't mean this to be this long. I need a little more space if you don't mind? I will send a part 2.
Part 2
My understanding is everyone will face judgment there is the first resurrection in Rev. 20 and the white throne judgment of all who have lived excluding those in the first resurrection who have already received their glorified bodies and judged, Rev. 20:4 and have been reigning with Jesus for a thousand years.
The second resurrection and judgment is called the second death, in this judgment, all who are not found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and they will perish, this punishment based on their works is everlasting to be no more, not an eternal conscious torment. We are given an example in Jude 1:7 of how the wicked will perish, the same way Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in the eternal fire for eternity never to be again.
Just a little of how I understand it, I know you know the Greek words' meaning better than I do, thank you.
God bless,
RLW
How do you understand John 11:25-26?
"Jesus said unto her, "I am the Resurrection, and the light: he who believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.
And whoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
Of course, I do not mind, you have always treated me with respect and care.
What John 11:25-26 means to me. Jesus is the resurrection, His perfect life when He died on the cross and was buried in a tomb death could not hold Him. To me, it is the gospel, the simplicity of Jesus Christ, the message of salvation, and our hope in eternal life. Even if we die, we who believe in Jesus Christ will live as we see in John 5:29 the resurrection of life.
We sleep in death, but we have the promise of eternal life, we will never die. Those of the wicked and lost will face the second death, the permanent death of no return. As Jesus asked Martha do you believe this, regardless of what we face and the struggles and doubts we have in this world we go through in this fleshly body, all of our hope and trust must be in Jesus, who is the truth, the light, and what He said will come to be.
God bless,
RLW
(Part 2):
In Luke 16:19-31, we read about the rich man and Lazarus. What I notice is that they both died. It speaks of the rich man being in Hades, and being in torment. What is interesting if you read through that section, the rich man can feel, he can speak, he can see, he can remember, and he is in torment. Notice in Verse 26 that there is a great gulf fixed and no one is able to cross over from one side to the other. There is no hope for those on the opposite side of Abraham's bosom. The question here is, why didn't the rich man cease to exist when he died?
In Mark 9:43-47, even though this is not literally talking about plucking your eye out or cutting off your hand, it does speak of some entering into life, and some being cast into Hell. If the wicked one who has rejected Christ dies and ceases to exist, how can he be cast into Hell?
In Revelation 20:5, it tells us that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Obviously, there must have been a previous resurrection because this talks about the rest of the dead not being resurrected until after the 1,000-year reign. How can those who cease to exist be resurrected? How do you raise or resurrect something that does not exist?
John 5:29 says, "And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Again, how do you resurrect and judge someone that does not exist?
Again, in Luke 16:28, the rich man says, "For I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." This rich man is in a place of torment. He did not cease to exist when he died. Why not?
I just have a few more questions if you don't mind, so I will need one more post.
(Part 1):
Where in the bible does it say that the soul will cease to exist? If anyone ceases to exist when they die, can you please answer these questions. I will be the student here, so you have my attention. If you choose to answer these things, I do thank you ahead of time.
In Matthew 25:46, Is this not describing two classes of people, those who received Christ and belong to Him, and those who have rejected Him? If those who reject Him die and cease to exist, how can they go away into eternal punishment if they do not exist?
Revelation 14:11 says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night. How can this be for someone that does not exist?
Hebrews 9:27 tells us that it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. How can anyone who dies and ceases to exist be judged since this judgment comes (after) death?
Revelation 21:8 identifies a class of individuals who will end up in the lake of fire, and it also mentions that this is the second death. If they went through the first death and ceased to exist, how can they experience a second death if they do not exist?
2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that they will suffer the punishment of (eternal destruction), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. How is ceasing to exist considered suffering?
Jema, since Romans 6:23 has been quoted which says that the wages of sin is death, how do you get cease to exist out of this word death when the Greek word used (Thanatos) means separation, not cessation of life? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that at death, there is a separation from our physical body since this is what the word death means?
Revelation 14:10 talks about being tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Who is this for and how long will this torment last?
I have more questions to follow. Thank you for your time.
Totally agree with your comments of the state of soul in death and totally agree that eternal life is granted only to those in Christ.
Scary thought to cease to exist! But, that's exactly right! The satanic Vatican is behind the change of understanding.
If I were an unbeliever & continued to resist the Gospel of Salvation, knowing that only death & no more was the end of my mortal existence, I would live it up even more while I still have breath - for tomorrow I die & will be no more. What then is the Gospel that we preach? For what purpose did Christ have to come & die? Why did He have to bear the sins of the world with God's Wrath/Punishment, if the unbeliever has none of it to confront him after death? And lastly, if death alone is the punishment, then both believer & unbeliever alike have to face death one day if the Lord tarries. Now if the believer by his faith & God's Mercy never ever tastes of physical death (maybe he gets to old age & then raptured), then maybe there is some small message of hope to the unbeliever in such a Gospel.
I know people that don't believe in Christ. They are so secular that they are disinterested and bored with the topic of their eternal destination, Sad.
But, you brought up a whole new subject that bears discussion. And, that would be the rapture. I believed in the rapture for a good thirty plus years. It was a shock to my system (it even made me angry) to discover that there is no rapture of the Left Behind type.
I did to a great deal of reading, both for and against the rapture. It is too big a topic for this forum. Suffice it to say, if we look at the Biblical history, we will be here for tribulation. But, God will protect and provide as he did for the Israelites at the Exodus. And, as he provided a way out of Jerusalem in AD 70 for the Christian's.
"Say to them of a fearful heart, Behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense, He will come and save you." This verse brings tears of relief to me and makes me want to hug God.
Actually Shabbat Keeper, I wasn't intending to bring up the Rapture debate here, as it has been well discussed over the years. Rather, I was intending to give, maybe a rather flimsy example of a type of Gospel message, telling unbelievers that "when we turn to the Lord for forgiveness of our sins & receiving Christ into our life, then we will not face (physical) death, but just be raptured (caught up, as with Enoch/Elijah), to forever be with him". Here then would be something for the unbeliever to consider, because as sure as day turns into night, we all (believer & unbeliever alike) will face death - whether this thought leaves an 'icky' feeling in us depends on how we view death. So, rapture is not my issue here, but why is death any more of a punishment when we all have to die & knowing that death (of the body) means a complete eradication of any iota of life (in body, breath, mind, & senses). Often death is welcome, especially for the terminally ill or suffering, & whether or not one experiences a new pain-free joyful existence in the Lord's Presence or not, holds little attraction if there is no more consciousness in death or after it.
If death is the only punishment to the Christ-rejecter, then why do we all have to die? And if I might ask (verses that some don't care to address), why are there so many Scriptures to warn us that physical death is not the end (e.g. Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15); all these pointing to the reality of an eternal torment? As one who doesn't believe in such an eternity, I ask you (as I've done in the past with others), why are these Scriptures rejected so as to support an emotion-charged belief rather than a biblical Truth? Why do we reject or re-write these passages to suit us, when they're given direct from the Mouth of our Lord?
This comment is in reply to what happens to the condemned soul.
See on YouTube: Clash of Minds episode 178. At about 7 minutes into the lecture, Pastor Veith mentions that the condemned soul ceases to exist.
178 WUP Walter Veith & Martin Smith - Do not Worship The Beast And his Image, And Receive his Mark
Clash Of Minds
133K subscribers
Pastor Veith has dealt with this subject in previous lectures though I cannot seem to find it now.
Firstly, on the name 'Gehenna', otherwise called the "Valley of Hinnom", the Encyclopaedia definition is quite correct about the purpose why that area was set aside. It was indeed a place for the burning of refuse & the dead. And yes, it meant that they were all annihilated - no more evidence except dust & ashes. So, it can mean 'annihilation', but Gehenna can also mean 'a place of burning where the fires are never quenched'. And we know that the body is disposed of there, but what about the immaterial parts of man that remains accountable to God? And you also referenced a verse I quoted in Matthew 10:28. Taken on its own, that verse could well support your belief of a complete extermination of body, soul & spirit.
But it was for that very reason that I gave you the other verses to look up & consider. Not only was Matthew 10:28 Jesus' Words, but also Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15. You didn't take these into account. And we know, as I trust you are conversant, that when we deal with a topic or a doctrine from the Bible, we need to take in all the references that deal specifically with it. Unfortunately, our natural human instinct is to accept only those that we find palatable or in agreement with, thus distorting the teaching from the Word.
So, if you would care to look at those other verses & see how they affect your understanding of Matthew 10:28, I would be very interested. It's only when we consider all verses on a subject, can we get a fuller picture of it meaning & its implications. However, sometimes there aren't too many verses to help us learn about the subject - in such cases we can't force a teaching by them & just leave the subject open. Yet, not so with these important doctrines of the Deity of Christ & human existence & punishment after death.
Luke 16:19-31 was a common PARABLE of that time. Jesus was using it as a TEACHING lesson. And, by the way, this Lazarus in the story is not the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.
In no way, was Jesus saying the dead suffer in a state of torment. Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!
Again, dealing with your recent comments to me, now in one post, Shabbat Keeper. Firstly, Adam has written very well to Jema, so I won't bring up the matter of the definition of "eternal/eternity", which should alone convince us that physical death is not the end for anyone (believer or unbeliever).
If I'm correct from your first post to me, "what an icky thought it is, to stop existing", you believe in the total annihilation of the body at death (for the unbeliever). So, when the Bible speaks of man, his existence & his death, we are first reminded that man is a tripartite being (i.e. one whose composition is of body, soul & spirit: 1 Thessalonians 5:23). When the body dies, it decomposes back to the Earth, but those parts of man that cannot be killed ( Matthew 10:28) can never be destroyed. Unlike animals, man's spirit, given by God, returns to Him ( Ecclesiastes 3:21), whereas animals cease to exist - forever. Therefore, if man, made by God to reflect His Image & traits, is accountable to God, will never cease to exist (his spirit & soul cannot be destroyed, whether by death, fire, or whatever), & he will stand in judgement before God. For this reason, the Gospel is so vital for all to hear, to alert all people that death is not final - there remains an accountability & their final judgement will be based on what they have done with Jesus Who came for them.
You wrote, "Hell fire is the same thing as destruction" & you gave the example of a house on fire. A house is physical/material, a spirit is not - it can never be destroyed. The real Shabbat Keeper or myself are found in our spirits/souls - the body is simply the house in which we need to live in. So yes, this house is corrupt & temporal, but we who have Christ's Spirit in us, look to be clothed (endowed) with that "house which is from heaven" ( 2 Corinthians 5:1-6). Likewise, hell (not the grave), is the dwelling place of those who have spurned God's Love - spirits they are & in torment.
Well , happily for us, this question is not a salvific issue. The LORD gives all a free will to determine what's what.
May the LORD bless your continued studies. :)
Jesus in His teaching on this (& this account was not a parable as it does not meet the definition of a parable) is found in Luke 16:20-31, showing that the spirit of man must go somewhere. In the OT economy, where Hades was that temporary residence of departed souls till the Cross, Jesus still taught that there was consciousness in the after-life & also places of rest & waiting and also of torment. And Jesus was giving a real view of life beyond the grave, or else by naming people & places, He was just a deceiver. Jesus never did that; all His parables were without specifics, just everyday situations to which there was a special meaning. Luke 16 is not a parable but a view of the after-life - and He should know.
"Hell is a finality.", you wrote. No, Hell & Heaven are only the beginning. Our lives on Earth are but a quick snapshot of time compared to an everlasting existence, whether in God's Presence or in torment. And finally, you stated a good question, "Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!" What Jesus was teaching here is that the departed spirit can still feel agony, just as there can be joy & celebration (e.g. Luke 15:10). The spirit of this 'rich man' wasn't thirsty for even a sip of water - he was in torment, & sought comfort, ANY comfort, to relieve him of his agony. Would any amount of water have helped him - I seriously doubt it, but our earthly comparison to this would be, "a drowning man will clutch at a straw" to try & save himself, & would fit the Luke 16 account. And the rich man even pleaded that his brothers would be warned now while still alive, lest they come into such an awful place. So the actual fundamental question remains is: since the Word of God is replete with accounts of the awfulness of a Christ-less eternity, are we going to take the warnings given in it as just a story/a parable/a fable or believe in Jesus & the apostles' words?
The fire that shall never be quenched means it is irreversible. Look at the remains of sodom and Gomorrah that can be seen today. There are outlines of the buildings in the area near the Dead Sea. Archeological proof of the wrath of God.
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and its outlying towns have been a permanent destruction. This is an object lesson for us.
Mark 9:43
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
Again , this verse that you listed does not speak of the soul burning for eternity.
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matt 5:29 KJV.
Hell is a finality. It's the end of the road. The "whole body" is the body along with the soul.
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
Matthew 5:22
Hell fire is the same thing as destruction. For example, if my house were on fire, it would destroyed. And, once it burns down, there would be nothing left but smoke rising from the debris.
The "immaterial parts of man that remain accountable to God"? Are you talking about floating ghosts here?
The body and soul TOGETHER make the man. Man cannot exist without his body.
The following quotes the New World Encyclopedia on Gehenna.
"The valley forms the southwest border of ancient Jerusalem that stretches from the foot of Mt. Zion to the Kidron Valley. It is first mentioned in Joshua 15:8. Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. In addition, this valley was frequently not controlled by the Jewish authority within the city walls; it is traditionally held that this valley was used as a place of religious child-sacrifice to Moloch by the Canaanites outside the city (comp. Jer. 2: 23).
Like Sheol, Gehenna is sometimes translated as Hell."
Notice: "FIRES WERE KEPT BURNING TO CONSUME THE REFUSE"
The soul that sins will be burnt up and be eternal gone. Like sodom and Gomorrah. Burnt up and gone. Ashes under our feet.
This is in response to our earlier conversation. Does the condemned soul ceases to exist or does the condemned soul burn for eternity. The below verse was an example you gave of eternal burning.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28 KJV.
This verse NOT proof of eternal burning. It IS proof that the condemned soul CEASES to exist. God destroys BOTH soul and body.
Yes, there is an eternal joyous life for those who submit to God, so also there is eternal suffering for those who reject Him. How do you look at these verses? Are they to be avoided, re-interpreted, just given in error, or whatever one may choose to apply to them?
These are the matters we face here in addressing core biblical issues of eternity, the trinity, second coming, etc. And they are important; how we believe them & then share the Gospel with others can prove the genuineness of their faith when turning to Christ. I believe this is one major reason that we see an over-abundance of 'spurious faith' (i.e. a faith not based on the full Gospel message of the Bible, but with a leaning towards 'turn to Jesus & all will be well with your soul & live happily ever after in His Kingdom'). This is not the reason that Jesus came from His Glory ( John 17:5) to Earth to die a sinner's death - He came to give a Divinely prepared path & a living hope for the lost sinner to not face eternal condemnation: that's why it took the Son of God to come & lay down His Life, or else why not a spotless Heaven-provided Lamb? God laid down His Life through His Son which speaks to us of Love that is truly Agape & of the seriousness of our sins before Him & the certainty of His eternal Judgement to those who spurn that Love & offer of forgiveness. I'm sorry to have written at length on this subject, as it's one that is very close to my heart, when considering the great worth & cost of our salvation, in light of the Scriptures & of my own testimony.