Thank you Jema for your reply. On the Isaiah 13:12 reference, we would find no agreement at all, as the verse, when understood naturally & in context refers to the scarcity of human life during those times of the LORD's intervention & destruction. If you are finding Jesus in there (i.e. "I will MAKE A MAN more precious than fine gold"), then that would have to be a personal discovery rather than a textual truth.
And likewise with Colossians 3:10, the text doesn't allow for such an interpretation (i.e. of God creating Jesus). Paul is writing about two 'persons': the new man (i.e. the human being renewed by the Spirit), and of God (Who creates in His (God's) Image). So, it doesn't speak of Jesus, but of man who was once created in God's Image (Adam), & then after the fall, that image was marred, which necessitated a re-creation of that image in man. And to do this, man had to be changed inwardly (becoming a 'new man'), who now is being "renewed in knowledge" into the image of the One (God) Who created him (man). Yes, we do have 2 Corinthians 4:4 & Colossians 1:15 to support your use of 'image' as to Christ's 'creation', but we also have Genesis 1:27 & 1 Corinthians 11:7 to support man being made in God's Image. But to put Christ in Colossians 3:10 would violate the point of that verse which is directed to man's renewal.
Lastly, you wrote that you "don't really relish the idea of a big debate". That puzzled me since you initiated those questions for our responses. If we gave responses without 'debate/discussion', then the whole exercise would be entirely fruitless & pointless. So maybe you just wanted to share your understanding of those verses, but not willing to defend your beliefs; and these matters (of Christ's Divinity, eternal judgement, etc.) are vital to Christians & also in the preaching of the Gospel. Without these fundamentals, we have no Gospel - we have no message of liberty & hope to share with a lost world.
oops Jema, I meant to respond to your post to Ronald concerning whether we still live after our body dies.
As to your response to Chris, the Scriptures do say that Jesus was fully human, having a human body created for Him. But He differs from all other humans in that He is the divine Son of God who took onto Himself a full human nature including a body to be our perfect human representative and sacrifice for our salvation. He is God who took a human nature for us. The person of Christ is God the Son, not a human person that took on divinity, but a divine person who took on humanity.
Even the Pharisees were going to stone Him in John 10 for saying He was the Son of God. They charged that He was claiming to be God, which He was.
But I know that you do not believe this, and I understand that you do not wish to debate. I am not intending to do so.
I hope your day has gone well. It is morning here in Washington state.
When I read your post to Chris, I immediately though of Matthew 22:23 where Jesus said, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
To me, Jesus is saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive.
Also, refer to 1 Samuel, 2:6 in the song Hannah sang, "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive; he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up."
Notice the order, first death, then made alive. Of course this happens fully in the resurrection, but in considering what Jesus said that He who believes in me will never die. ( john 11:26)
And, one of my favorite verses: Romans 8:37-39
"Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
This clearly says that death cannot separate us from God.
And Jesus said to His disciples, "Behold, I AM with you always, even to the end of the world." Matthew 28:20
And Paul encourages believers by reminding them that God said, "I will never leave You nor forsake you." Hebrews 13:5, Josh. 1:5
So, to me, always and never mean that we will always be alive, whether in this life now or after we die.
Therefore, I believe that when we die, our body dies, but we are still alive with God. Our bodies will be rejoined to our soul and spirit when we are resurrected and then we will be made complete (whole, perfected) for eternity.
I have never advocated communicating with the dead. But I do believe that the Bible teaches what Jesus said that those who believe in Him, though one dies, will live forever.
Adam and Eve were the only two created in God's image after that man became a mom and dad creation as we have the power to create, to know good and evil, etc.
Isaiah 41:22] Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
[23] Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
After the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, we are to be the image of the Son of God for us to be in God's image once again.
Romans 8:29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
If I am conformed to the image of the Son of God I sure am not going to be conformed to the image of sin to the image of the devil as all sin is of the devil period 1st John 3:8. No such verse as we sin because we are of God or Jesus. Mankind thinks we are all made in God's image. False!!! Only those who come to his Son Jesus Christ and his words of spirit and life in John 6:63 can mankind be conformed to the image of God. 100% conditional love all the way. A free gift, with conditions. We have to walk in the spirit of the words and not in the spirit of the world. The things which are seen are only temporal, however, the things not seen are eternal. The rich man in hell didn't see that coming in Luke 16. A rich and powerful person in his day and he could not spend a dime of it in hell.
No one has ever yet given me a convincing explanation as to how , the wages of sin is death and yet , after we die we apparently continue to live ! Either in heaven or in hell . Death is the cessation of life , if it wasn't then it wouldn't be much of a punishment would it ? This is very plain and simple to me and beyond question . God Himself says : the wages of sin is death , the soul that sinneth it shall die , cease to exist . Now that's a punishment . The entire narrative of the Bible supports this , chapter after chapter after chapter . This cannot be denied and I really do believe , honestly , that adding anything more , creating an afterlife of either continuous torture at the hands of some sort of supernatural personification of evil , for eternity is a vile concept that God would not permit . Or and afterlife in heaven , which is where God Himself lives , when Jesus clearly tells us that the meek shall inherit the earth and even more details are given by Paul in 1st Thessalonians , is creating your own fable for your own comfort and somehow applying it to Christianity , I can't say applying it to scripture because there are no scriptures that support this fable , is definitely adding to the word of God . It's blatant ! And it truly astonishes me , that anyone who has read the Bible could ever believe either of these things . Search your heart , search the scripture ! It's just not supportable , it's a fable ! The only thing that could ever convince me that these things are true is The Bible and it's not in the Bible ! I am a follower , of the Bible . Not of anyone . Since I started reading this site not one of my beliefs , that I was very convinced of for thirty years before finding this site , have changed , not one . My understanding has been enhanced , by only one or two people of all the people that post on here but my beliefs are my own and the same as many others . I know because I've met them . The trinity is a catholic doctrine and another fable .
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
Matthew 25:30 says to cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Where is this place and who goes there? How can someone who cease to exist weep or gnash their teeth?
Daniel 12:2 says that many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. This is obviously speaking of two classes of people, believers and non-believers. If one (or both) cease to exist when they die, how can this be?
In Ephesians Chapter 4, when Jesus descended into the lower regions of the earth, what was that for? Why would He go there? Who were these captives that He loosened?
Luke 12:5 says, "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." If a person just ceases to exist when they die, why would they have to fear being cast into Hell?
I realize that these are a lot of questions, but what you are presenting here, I think would cause many believers to have questions. Again, if you choose to answer these questions, I do appreciate your time.
Dear Jesse , have you read Ezekiel Ch 18 ? I'm guessing that you have :) . What does it mean to you ? In particular the last two verses . I reeeeally don't want to go back and forth on this because I feel that it would be a waste of both of our time and energy . I respect you and your beliefs . I just don't agree with all of them . I'm ok with that and hope that you are too .
Jema, you asked me if I've read Ezekiel Chapter 18, and also what does it mean to me? I would be happy to answer your questions, but first I need to know that you are open for discussion, even if it is "back and forth." I am completely open for discussion, and I would never consider our discussion a waste of my time.
I promise you that I will never be rude to you in any conversation. One thing I will say up front is that I may ask a lot of questions, but I'm confident that since you have studied the bible every day for 30 years, my questions shouldn't be very difficult at all for you to answer.
Also, I do commend you on 30 years of bible study without missing a single day. I wish I could say the same. I do have a hunger for God's word and find that I can't stay away from it for very long, but I have missed some days of study over the years. I am 63 years old and have also been studying for many years. I have never told anyone here how many years I have been studying, and that's something I probably won't share, and I have my own reason for not disclosing that information.
Hi Jesse , also , I have been reading this site for many more years than I have been posting and I have sadly noted that many debates turn aggressive . This is not something that I will tolerate from anyone . If someone is aggressive to me I just withdraw and I don't come back . I realise that in a typed message , aggression can be mistaken but I've seen it very blatant and also in its passive form on here and I won't engage with aggressive people . I was brought up with physical and mental aggression and I couldn't escape from it , now I can escape and so I do :) . You may consider me oversensitive :) you wouldn't be the first :) .
Hi Jesse and thanks for your replies to me , I appreciate them . I don't really enjoy justifying my beliefs , especially when I know that the person I'm speaking to is as strong in their (different ) beliefs as I am in mine . Sadly I don't have a lot of time to spend on here and by the end of the day , which is when I usually look on here , I'm so tired I can barely keep my eyes open . That's why I don't read all posts , I'm a bit of a cherry picker :) . I am open to debate but don't much enjoy it , that's the best way I can put it . My Bible knowledge in 95 per cent self learned over 30 years and I'm definitely not the type who is easily influenced by others . I also have no desire to influence others in their beliefs , so you can see why I'm not overly keen on debate , it does not come naturally to me . I will and always do , read your posts to me and to others , so if you want to talk about this subject I will listen and if I have the time and energy I will respond . That's the most I can give you I'm afraid . Just because we don't believe exactly the same things doesn't mean that we can't enjoy and learn from each other , I know that from my own experience on here :) . Much love in Christ .
Thank you for being upfront with me. I do understand where you're coming from and I will respectfully move on from this discussion.
Until I can find some place in the Bible that tells me that the soul will cease to exist and that hell is the grave, we will just have to remain in disagreement.
Unless the Lord comes for us before we die, our bodies are going to end up in a grave somewhere. I can't bring myself to believe that you or I or anyone else who belongs to the Lord will end up in hell (if hell is the grave).
I know I asked a lot of questions and I presented a lot scriptures to go with those questions. You mentioned that you don't have the time to read everything but I hope that if you ever do find the time to carefully read over those questions, perhaps you might see why I find it difficult to agree with you on this one.
Again, thank you for your openness and for being the kind and caring person that you are. I do look forward to reading more of your posts. God bless!!!
If I may add a few points to this subject, I know we have different understandings on this and I hope you will not be offended, these are questions I have asked myself. What does Scripture support, our soul is an immortal entity that consciously lives on after the death of the body or does it sleep in the grave until the resurrection? Is the definition of death a separation of the soul from the body or is it the end of life, a permanent cessation, and the grave is our home until we are resurrected?
John 3:15-16 Without the belief in Jesus we will perish the Greek word apollumi means destroy utterly, to put out of the way entirely, abolish as in Psalms 37:10Psalms 92:7Proverbs 10:28-29Job 20:4-7Malachi 4:1-32 Peter 2:12.
Matthew 10:28 we are to fear the one who can destroy the body and the soul in hell, the Greek word for destroy is apollumi same as perish, a permanent/absolute destruction. Hell, the Greek word is geenna the fire and smoke that goes up and burns forever that never goes out is a reference to the lake of fire. Job 17:13 the Hebrew word sheol is the same word translated as hell. Job 17:16 the word pit is the same Hebrew word.
Our first death is sleep, Psalms 13:3Daniel 12:2Acts 13:361 Cor. 15:51. If all souls are immortal which means they have eternal life, the question must be asked, what is the gift of eternal life we see in John 3:15John 6:54Romans 6:23Titus 1:21 John 2:25Jude 1:21? If our soul is immortal, why do we have to put immortality on as said in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58?
Please know that I am not ignoring you. And no, I am not offended at all. You have some questions but I am not sure if you are looking for me to answer any of them as you said these are questions that you have asked yourself. As you stated, we do have a different understanding on this topic.
Please let me know if you would like me to respond to any of these questions. Thanks!
I understand in delays in replies many work and have family responsibilities. This subject is being discussed by several people and I just wanted to share a few points of my understanding on it. The questions were not directed towards you, you can reply to them if you want but they were some of the questions I wrote down when I was studying this subject because some Scriptures seem to support both understandings if not deeply studied, not saying you have not.
Scripture tells us God is love, 1 John 4:8,16 and we have been told God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked, Ezekiel 33:11 caries us to John 3:16 God does not want us to perish. The Bible tells us the soul that sinneth will die, Ezekiel 18:4 God preserves the souls of the saints Psalms 97:10 the faith and belief in Jesus by the grace of God can save our soul Hebrews 10:39.
Scripture tells us of various degrees of punishment like in Luke 12:46-48Revelation 21:8. In Genesis 2:7 man became a living soul/being, my understanding is the breath of God is the spirit of life which goes back to God when we die whether lost or saved and this body becomes a dead soul that sleeps in the dust until resurrection then the judgment Revelation 20.
To repeat, eternal life is our promise it is something we do not have, only by faith and belief in Jesus Christ by the grace of God we will receive this gift when we are resurrected not before. If we say our souls are immortal, we are saying we already have eternal life, and it is just where are we going to spend it?
My understanding is the lost and wicked punishment is eternal forever, not the punishing, Satan and the fallen angels the beast and false profit will be tormented day and night for ever and ever as we see in Revelation 20:10, but they are not mortal beings like we are, and we see in Matthew 25:41 it was originally prepared for them.
Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Here, we see a gift of God being given, and that gift is eternal life. Since God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are eternal, and I receive the gift of the Holy Spirit as it says in Acts 2:38, I believe I can say I have received eternal life. I can say that I have the eternal one living in me, and He has promised to never leave me.
Eternal life for me began the day that I was born of God's Spirit, the day I received Christ. Now if Christ is not eternal, then I cannot say I have eternal life. But if Christ is eternal, and He lives in me, then I can say with confidence that I currently have eternal life. Jesus said that He would never leave me nor forsake me. So, the question I must ask is when I physically die, does Jesus also remain in the grave with me and sleep?
Ronald, my apologies if this was too long. I do thank you for sharing what you believe. We both know that we will not always agree with each other on everything, but you have shared many things that I do agree with you on, and I hope that I have done the same.
Jesse, when you fall asleep, you sleep in the bosom of the LORD who does not slumber or sleep. He keeps you safe in his care while you are sleeping. Then, in the morning (resurrection day) he will wake you up. Call you forth.
Thank you for the post you have sent me, but as I mentioned earlier, I do not believe in "soul sleep." I know the Seventh Day Adventists teach this, but I do not agree with it. When my fleshly body dies, it will give the appearance of sleeping, but I will not be there. I will be with the Lord and one day, my body will be raised as a glorified body, and my soul/spirit will be reunited with a new body. If I am sleeping in the bosom of the Lord when I die, my question to you is "Where will the Lord be?"
Thank you for sharing your understanding on this topic. I always enjoy my discussions with you. We are in agreement that God is love. In fact, God is Agape, the highest form of love that exists. We are in agreement that God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked. That's why He has provided a way for the wicked to be redeemed. We are in agreement that God does not want us to perish. Some take this word perish to mean cease to exist completely. Some teach annihilation. That, I do not agree with. I also don't agree that Hell is only the grave because both believers and non-believers alike are going to end up in a grave (unless the Lord comes for us first).
I agree that the bible tells in Ezekiel Chapter 18 that the soul that sinneth shall die. I believe it is the soul that makes up our entire being. Can our fleshly body exist without a soul? As far as salvation goes, did Christ come to redeem our flesh, or did He come to redeem our soul? I say that my soul has been redeemed, not my flesh. My flesh is rotten to the core! I agree that there are different degrees of punishment, but as you know, I also believe that whatever the degree of punishment is, it will be forever.
In my studies of the Greek, I have come to learn that the word for death means separation. This is why I believe that when our physical body of flesh dies, our soul will separate from our fleshly body. The body will rot and decay in the grave, not cease to exist as some say. I do not believe in soul sleep.
I do agree with you that eternal life is a promise. However, what we differ on is when this eternal life begins. For me, I believe I have eternal life right now. There are several verses in scripture that speak of eternal life/salvation being present tense ( 1 John 5:11, 1 John 5:13, John 17:3, John 10:28-30, John 3:36, John 4:14, 1 Timothy 6:12). These are just some verses that speak of eternal salvation being present, not future.
First, let me say thank you for your response. Honestly, I didn't think you were going to respond. I wasn't even sure that you would read what I posted after seeing my name, knowing that we differ in some of our beliefs. You mentioned that you don't read all the comments as you don't have the time to do so. That is understandable. I don't think any of us have the time to read every single comment here. I wish I had the time to do so because I like to read the things people have to say, whether I agree or disagree.
Jema, I can't say that I've read all of your posts, but I can say that I have read most of your posts and I will continue to do so because I enjoy reading them. You have always given me the impression of being a very kind and caring person. Also, your love for the Lord is quite obvious and I would never question that.
You also mentioned in one of your posts that you "always look out for people asking questions." Well, I asked you some questions (maybe too many?), but you chose not to answer any of them. Is it because I was questioning something you believed? On an open forum, we should expect to be questioned from time to time on what we say, and if someone disagrees on something and asks where in the bible can they find the things we are saying, we should at least point them to the scriptures and at least be open to discussion of those scriptures.
Jema, you said that you have explained your beliefs on here before. I asked, "Where in the bible does it say that the soul will cease to exist?" If you have already explained this in a previous post and I missed it, then I do apologize. I will go back and look for your explanation on that. Can you at least estimate how long ago it was that you explained how the soul ceases to exist so it might be easier for me to find?
I'm sorry, I didn't mean this to be this long. I need a little more space if you don't mind? I will send a part 2.
My understanding is everyone will face judgment there is the first resurrection in Rev. 20 and the white throne judgment of all who have lived excluding those in the first resurrection who have already received their glorified bodies and judged, Rev. 20:4 and have been reigning with Jesus for a thousand years.
The second resurrection and judgment is called the second death, in this judgment, all who are not found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and they will perish, this punishment based on their works is everlasting to be no more, not an eternal conscious torment. We are given an example in Jude 1:7 of how the wicked will perish, the same way Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in the eternal fire for eternity never to be again.
Just a little of how I understand it, I know you know the Greek words' meaning better than I do, thank you.
Of course, I do not mind, you have always treated me with respect and care.
What John 11:25-26 means to me. Jesus is the resurrection, His perfect life when He died on the cross and was buried in a tomb death could not hold Him. To me, it is the gospel, the simplicity of Jesus Christ, the message of salvation, and our hope in eternal life. Even if we die, we who believe in Jesus Christ will live as we see in John 5:29 the resurrection of life.
We sleep in death, but we have the promise of eternal life, we will never die. Those of the wicked and lost will face the second death, the permanent death of no return. As Jesus asked Martha do you believe this, regardless of what we face and the struggles and doubts we have in this world we go through in this fleshly body, all of our hope and trust must be in Jesus, who is the truth, the light, and what He said will come to be.
In Luke 16:19-31, we read about the rich man and Lazarus. What I notice is that they both died. It speaks of the rich man being in Hades, and being in torment. What is interesting if you read through that section, the rich man can feel, he can speak, he can see, he can remember, and he is in torment. Notice in Verse 26 that there is a great gulf fixed and no one is able to cross over from one side to the other. There is no hope for those on the opposite side of Abraham's bosom. The question here is, why didn't the rich man cease to exist when he died?
In Mark 9:43-47, even though this is not literally talking about plucking your eye out or cutting off your hand, it does speak of some entering into life, and some being cast into Hell. If the wicked one who has rejected Christ dies and ceases to exist, how can he be cast into Hell?
In Revelation 20:5, it tells us that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Obviously, there must have been a previous resurrection because this talks about the rest of the dead not being resurrected until after the 1,000-year reign. How can those who cease to exist be resurrected? How do you raise or resurrect something that does not exist?
John 5:29 says, "And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Again, how do you resurrect and judge someone that does not exist?
Again, in Luke 16:28, the rich man says, "For I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." This rich man is in a place of torment. He did not cease to exist when he died. Why not?
I just have a few more questions if you don't mind, so I will need one more post.
And likewise with Colossians 3:10, the text doesn't allow for such an interpretation (i.e. of God creating Jesus). Paul is writing about two 'persons': the new man (i.e. the human being renewed by the Spirit), and of God (Who creates in His (God's) Image). So, it doesn't speak of Jesus, but of man who was once created in God's Image (Adam), & then after the fall, that image was marred, which necessitated a re-creation of that image in man. And to do this, man had to be changed inwardly (becoming a 'new man'), who now is being "renewed in knowledge" into the image of the One (God) Who created him (man). Yes, we do have 2 Corinthians 4:4 & Colossians 1:15 to support your use of 'image' as to Christ's 'creation', but we also have Genesis 1:27 & 1 Corinthians 11:7 to support man being made in God's Image. But to put Christ in Colossians 3:10 would violate the point of that verse which is directed to man's renewal.
Lastly, you wrote that you "don't really relish the idea of a big debate". That puzzled me since you initiated those questions for our responses. If we gave responses without 'debate/discussion', then the whole exercise would be entirely fruitless & pointless. So maybe you just wanted to share your understanding of those verses, but not willing to defend your beliefs; and these matters (of Christ's Divinity, eternal judgement, etc.) are vital to Christians & also in the preaching of the Gospel. Without these fundamentals, we have no Gospel - we have no message of liberty & hope to share with a lost world.
As to your response to Chris, the Scriptures do say that Jesus was fully human, having a human body created for Him. But He differs from all other humans in that He is the divine Son of God who took onto Himself a full human nature including a body to be our perfect human representative and sacrifice for our salvation. He is God who took a human nature for us. The person of Christ is God the Son, not a human person that took on divinity, but a divine person who took on humanity.
Even the Pharisees were going to stone Him in John 10 for saying He was the Son of God. They charged that He was claiming to be God, which He was.
But I know that you do not believe this, and I understand that you do not wish to debate. I am not intending to do so.
I hope your day has gone well. It is morning here in Washington state.
When I read your post to Chris, I immediately though of Matthew 22:23 where Jesus said, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
To me, Jesus is saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive.
Also, refer to 1 Samuel, 2:6 in the song Hannah sang, "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive; he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up."
Notice the order, first death, then made alive. Of course this happens fully in the resurrection, but in considering what Jesus said that He who believes in me will never die. ( john 11:26)
And, one of my favorite verses: Romans 8:37-39
"Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
This clearly says that death cannot separate us from God.
And Jesus said to His disciples, "Behold, I AM with you always, even to the end of the world." Matthew 28:20
And Paul encourages believers by reminding them that God said, "I will never leave You nor forsake you." Hebrews 13:5, Josh. 1:5
So, to me, always and never mean that we will always be alive, whether in this life now or after we die.
Therefore, I believe that when we die, our body dies, but we are still alive with God. Our bodies will be rejoined to our soul and spirit when we are resurrected and then we will be made complete (whole, perfected) for eternity.
Our dead relatives have no idea what's going on. They are not watching over us. They are asleep!
Thinking otherwise leads to spiritism which God forbids.
Again, I do not think that believing that a person lives on without a body after death necessarily leads to spiritism. That is an
erroneous assumption.
I do not think, though, that our dead loved ones in Christ are watching over us and involved in our life here. I believe that they
are with the Lord and that involves not knowing what is happening here on earth. That is what the Scripture is talking about
when it says that the dead know nothing-that is, nothing of the goings on of this world and life.
Eternal life is received when we believe and when we die, only our body dies. But eternal life is a completely different kind of life
that earthly life. it is a completely different realm of existence, of which we cannot pierce the veil in this life, nor can those
believers who have passed from death into life pierce the veil between eternal life and earthly life.
I guess we will just have to accept that we differ in our views on this and we will find out when we die what is true.
I have never advocated communicating with the dead. But I do believe that the Bible teaches what Jesus said that those who believe in Him, though one dies, will live forever.
Isaiah 41:22] Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
[23] Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
After the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, we are to be the image of the Son of God for us to be in God's image once again.
Romans 8:29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
If I am conformed to the image of the Son of God I sure am not going to be conformed to the image of sin to the image of the devil as all sin is of the devil period 1st John 3:8. No such verse as we sin because we are of God or Jesus. Mankind thinks we are all made in God's image. False!!! Only those who come to his Son Jesus Christ and his words of spirit and life in John 6:63 can mankind be conformed to the image of God. 100% conditional love all the way. A free gift, with conditions. We have to walk in the spirit of the words and not in the spirit of the world. The things which are seen are only temporal, however, the things not seen are eternal. The rich man in hell didn't see that coming in Luke 16. A rich and powerful person in his day and he could not spend a dime of it in hell.
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
God bless you.
(Part 3):
Matthew 25:30 says to cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Where is this place and who goes there? How can someone who cease to exist weep or gnash their teeth?
Daniel 12:2 says that many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. This is obviously speaking of two classes of people, believers and non-believers. If one (or both) cease to exist when they die, how can this be?
In Ephesians Chapter 4, when Jesus descended into the lower regions of the earth, what was that for? Why would He go there? Who were these captives that He loosened?
Luke 12:5 says, "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." If a person just ceases to exist when they die, why would they have to fear being cast into Hell?
I realize that these are a lot of questions, but what you are presenting here, I think would cause many believers to have questions. Again, if you choose to answer these questions, I do appreciate your time.
Jema, you asked me if I've read Ezekiel Chapter 18, and also what does it mean to me? I would be happy to answer your questions, but first I need to know that you are open for discussion, even if it is "back and forth." I am completely open for discussion, and I would never consider our discussion a waste of my time.
I promise you that I will never be rude to you in any conversation. One thing I will say up front is that I may ask a lot of questions, but I'm confident that since you have studied the bible every day for 30 years, my questions shouldn't be very difficult at all for you to answer.
Also, I do commend you on 30 years of bible study without missing a single day. I wish I could say the same. I do have a hunger for God's word and find that I can't stay away from it for very long, but I have missed some days of study over the years. I am 63 years old and have also been studying for many years. I have never told anyone here how many years I have been studying, and that's something I probably won't share, and I have my own reason for not disclosing that information.
Thank you for being upfront with me. I do understand where you're coming from and I will respectfully move on from this discussion.
Until I can find some place in the Bible that tells me that the soul will cease to exist and that hell is the grave, we will just have to remain in disagreement.
Unless the Lord comes for us before we die, our bodies are going to end up in a grave somewhere. I can't bring myself to believe that you or I or anyone else who belongs to the Lord will end up in hell (if hell is the grave).
I know I asked a lot of questions and I presented a lot scriptures to go with those questions. You mentioned that you don't have the time to read everything but I hope that if you ever do find the time to carefully read over those questions, perhaps you might see why I find it difficult to agree with you on this one.
Again, thank you for your openness and for being the kind and caring person that you are. I do look forward to reading more of your posts. God bless!!!
Part 1
If I may add a few points to this subject, I know we have different understandings on this and I hope you will not be offended, these are questions I have asked myself. What does Scripture support, our soul is an immortal entity that consciously lives on after the death of the body or does it sleep in the grave until the resurrection? Is the definition of death a separation of the soul from the body or is it the end of life, a permanent cessation, and the grave is our home until we are resurrected?
John 3:15-16 Without the belief in Jesus we will perish the Greek word apollumi means destroy utterly, to put out of the way entirely, abolish as in Psalms 37:10 Psalms 92:7 Proverbs 10:28-29 Job 20:4-7 Malachi 4:1-3 2 Peter 2:12.
Matthew 10:28 we are to fear the one who can destroy the body and the soul in hell, the Greek word for destroy is apollumi same as perish, a permanent/absolute destruction. Hell, the Greek word is geenna the fire and smoke that goes up and burns forever that never goes out is a reference to the lake of fire. Job 17:13 the Hebrew word sheol is the same word translated as hell. Job 17:16 the word pit is the same Hebrew word.
Our first death is sleep, Psalms 13:3 Daniel 12:2 Acts 13:36 1 Cor. 15:51. If all souls are immortal which means they have eternal life, the question must be asked, what is the gift of eternal life we see in John 3:15 John 6:54 Romans 6:23 Titus 1:2 1 John 2:25 Jude 1:21? If our soul is immortal, why do we have to put immortality on as said in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58?
See part 2
Please know that I am not ignoring you. And no, I am not offended at all. You have some questions but I am not sure if you are looking for me to answer any of them as you said these are questions that you have asked yourself. As you stated, we do have a different understanding on this topic.
Please let me know if you would like me to respond to any of these questions. Thanks!
God bless!!!
I understand in delays in replies many work and have family responsibilities. This subject is being discussed by several people and I just wanted to share a few points of my understanding on it. The questions were not directed towards you, you can reply to them if you want but they were some of the questions I wrote down when I was studying this subject because some Scriptures seem to support both understandings if not deeply studied, not saying you have not.
Scripture tells us God is love, 1 John 4:8,16 and we have been told God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked, Ezekiel 33:11 caries us to John 3:16 God does not want us to perish. The Bible tells us the soul that sinneth will die, Ezekiel 18:4 God preserves the souls of the saints Psalms 97:10 the faith and belief in Jesus by the grace of God can save our soul Hebrews 10:39.
Scripture tells us of various degrees of punishment like in Luke 12:46-48 Revelation 21:8. In Genesis 2:7 man became a living soul/being, my understanding is the breath of God is the spirit of life which goes back to God when we die whether lost or saved and this body becomes a dead soul that sleeps in the dust until resurrection then the judgment Revelation 20.
To repeat, eternal life is our promise it is something we do not have, only by faith and belief in Jesus Christ by the grace of God we will receive this gift when we are resurrected not before. If we say our souls are immortal, we are saying we already have eternal life, and it is just where are we going to spend it?
My understanding is the lost and wicked punishment is eternal forever, not the punishing, Satan and the fallen angels the beast and false profit will be tormented day and night for ever and ever as we see in Revelation 20:10, but they are not mortal beings like we are, and we see in Matthew 25:41 it was originally prepared for them.
Just my understanding of Scripture thanks again.
God bless,
RLW
(Part 2 of 2):
Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Here, we see a gift of God being given, and that gift is eternal life. Since God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are eternal, and I receive the gift of the Holy Spirit as it says in Acts 2:38, I believe I can say I have received eternal life. I can say that I have the eternal one living in me, and He has promised to never leave me.
Eternal life for me began the day that I was born of God's Spirit, the day I received Christ. Now if Christ is not eternal, then I cannot say I have eternal life. But if Christ is eternal, and He lives in me, then I can say with confidence that I currently have eternal life. Jesus said that He would never leave me nor forsake me. So, the question I must ask is when I physically die, does Jesus also remain in the grave with me and sleep?
Ronald, my apologies if this was too long. I do thank you for sharing what you believe. We both know that we will not always agree with each other on everything, but you have shared many things that I do agree with you on, and I hope that I have done the same.
God bless you also, my brother in Christ!
Thank you for the post you have sent me, but as I mentioned earlier, I do not believe in "soul sleep." I know the Seventh Day Adventists teach this, but I do not agree with it. When my fleshly body dies, it will give the appearance of sleeping, but I will not be there. I will be with the Lord and one day, my body will be raised as a glorified body, and my soul/spirit will be reunited with a new body. If I am sleeping in the bosom of the Lord when I die, my question to you is "Where will the Lord be?"
(Part 1 of 2):
Thank you for sharing your understanding on this topic. I always enjoy my discussions with you. We are in agreement that God is love. In fact, God is Agape, the highest form of love that exists. We are in agreement that God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked. That's why He has provided a way for the wicked to be redeemed. We are in agreement that God does not want us to perish. Some take this word perish to mean cease to exist completely. Some teach annihilation. That, I do not agree with. I also don't agree that Hell is only the grave because both believers and non-believers alike are going to end up in a grave (unless the Lord comes for us first).
I agree that the bible tells in Ezekiel Chapter 18 that the soul that sinneth shall die. I believe it is the soul that makes up our entire being. Can our fleshly body exist without a soul? As far as salvation goes, did Christ come to redeem our flesh, or did He come to redeem our soul? I say that my soul has been redeemed, not my flesh. My flesh is rotten to the core! I agree that there are different degrees of punishment, but as you know, I also believe that whatever the degree of punishment is, it will be forever.
In my studies of the Greek, I have come to learn that the word for death means separation. This is why I believe that when our physical body of flesh dies, our soul will separate from our fleshly body. The body will rot and decay in the grave, not cease to exist as some say. I do not believe in soul sleep.
I do agree with you that eternal life is a promise. However, what we differ on is when this eternal life begins. For me, I believe I have eternal life right now. There are several verses in scripture that speak of eternal life/salvation being present tense ( 1 John 5:11, 1 John 5:13, John 17:3, John 10:28-30, John 3:36, John 4:14, 1 Timothy 6:12). These are just some verses that speak of eternal salvation being present, not future.
Part 2 to follow...
First, let me say thank you for your response. Honestly, I didn't think you were going to respond. I wasn't even sure that you would read what I posted after seeing my name, knowing that we differ in some of our beliefs. You mentioned that you don't read all the comments as you don't have the time to do so. That is understandable. I don't think any of us have the time to read every single comment here. I wish I had the time to do so because I like to read the things people have to say, whether I agree or disagree.
Jema, I can't say that I've read all of your posts, but I can say that I have read most of your posts and I will continue to do so because I enjoy reading them. You have always given me the impression of being a very kind and caring person. Also, your love for the Lord is quite obvious and I would never question that.
You also mentioned in one of your posts that you "always look out for people asking questions." Well, I asked you some questions (maybe too many?), but you chose not to answer any of them. Is it because I was questioning something you believed? On an open forum, we should expect to be questioned from time to time on what we say, and if someone disagrees on something and asks where in the bible can they find the things we are saying, we should at least point them to the scriptures and at least be open to discussion of those scriptures.
Jema, you said that you have explained your beliefs on here before. I asked, "Where in the bible does it say that the soul will cease to exist?" If you have already explained this in a previous post and I missed it, then I do apologize. I will go back and look for your explanation on that. Can you at least estimate how long ago it was that you explained how the soul ceases to exist so it might be easier for me to find?
I'm sorry, I didn't mean this to be this long. I need a little more space if you don't mind? I will send a part 2.
Part 2
My understanding is everyone will face judgment there is the first resurrection in Rev. 20 and the white throne judgment of all who have lived excluding those in the first resurrection who have already received their glorified bodies and judged, Rev. 20:4 and have been reigning with Jesus for a thousand years.
The second resurrection and judgment is called the second death, in this judgment, all who are not found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and they will perish, this punishment based on their works is everlasting to be no more, not an eternal conscious torment. We are given an example in Jude 1:7 of how the wicked will perish, the same way Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in the eternal fire for eternity never to be again.
Just a little of how I understand it, I know you know the Greek words' meaning better than I do, thank you.
God bless,
RLW
How do you understand John 11:25-26?
"Jesus said unto her, "I am the Resurrection, and the light: he who believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.
And whoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
Of course, I do not mind, you have always treated me with respect and care.
What John 11:25-26 means to me. Jesus is the resurrection, His perfect life when He died on the cross and was buried in a tomb death could not hold Him. To me, it is the gospel, the simplicity of Jesus Christ, the message of salvation, and our hope in eternal life. Even if we die, we who believe in Jesus Christ will live as we see in John 5:29 the resurrection of life.
We sleep in death, but we have the promise of eternal life, we will never die. Those of the wicked and lost will face the second death, the permanent death of no return. As Jesus asked Martha do you believe this, regardless of what we face and the struggles and doubts we have in this world we go through in this fleshly body, all of our hope and trust must be in Jesus, who is the truth, the light, and what He said will come to be.
God bless,
RLW
(Part 2):
In Luke 16:19-31, we read about the rich man and Lazarus. What I notice is that they both died. It speaks of the rich man being in Hades, and being in torment. What is interesting if you read through that section, the rich man can feel, he can speak, he can see, he can remember, and he is in torment. Notice in Verse 26 that there is a great gulf fixed and no one is able to cross over from one side to the other. There is no hope for those on the opposite side of Abraham's bosom. The question here is, why didn't the rich man cease to exist when he died?
In Mark 9:43-47, even though this is not literally talking about plucking your eye out or cutting off your hand, it does speak of some entering into life, and some being cast into Hell. If the wicked one who has rejected Christ dies and ceases to exist, how can he be cast into Hell?
In Revelation 20:5, it tells us that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Obviously, there must have been a previous resurrection because this talks about the rest of the dead not being resurrected until after the 1,000-year reign. How can those who cease to exist be resurrected? How do you raise or resurrect something that does not exist?
John 5:29 says, "And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Again, how do you resurrect and judge someone that does not exist?
Again, in Luke 16:28, the rich man says, "For I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." This rich man is in a place of torment. He did not cease to exist when he died. Why not?
I just have a few more questions if you don't mind, so I will need one more post.