You comment here to me, Shabbat Keeper, seems out of place from what Valmar's post was about & my question to her. So, I can't give you an answer because I don't understand your connection about Lazarus & what has been presented.
Hi Edwars54 , increasing your faith is an ongoing journey for all Christians . To me , you must first recognise that there is a God , a Creator and Sustainer of all life and that God is the Holy One of Israel . Nothing that we humans do is of any consequence . God is in complete charge of all of His creation . Without Him you wouldn't exist , without Him nothing would exist . You must recognise that He is all powerful and can do anything with any part of His creation . Once you can truly accept these truths then you need to start to get to know Him through His Word the Bible . This in itself should be a life long process . As you learn of Him and grow closer to Him through His Word , you will start to recognise Him in your life and in the world around you , you will see His love and mercy everywhere . This is enormously cheering when this happens , you should start to feel very happy and very loved . Pray to Him every day and thank Him for every good thing in your life , I thank Him if my bus arrives on time :) . Once you realise that literally every good thing in your life comes from His hand your life is totally in His hand , then hopefully your love towards and faith in Him should start to grow . You must recognise that you are totally dependant on Him for absolutely everything . Read the Bible every single day and thank Him every single day and see His love and mercy every single day , in your life and in the lives of others . Never doubt His love or His willingness to forgive you when you sin but don't take His mercy for granted :) . Be patient , He wants you with Him , let Him put you where He wants you to be .
Remember: Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of GOD- Romans 10:17. The Word is GOD, understand? Yes, the Word is the invisible GOD, self-executable. For example: The Word said: Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a VIRGIN shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
The Word said(the Word is GOD): Isaiah 9:6-7:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with Judgment and with Justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (By the way, GOD calleth those things which be not as though they were- Romans 4:17-understand? The Word is GOD, self-executing).
Why is eternal torture in hell for the sinner / atheist etc , never mentioned in the old testament ? Why , when Israel wandered in the desert , led by Moses , when Israel sinned in all the different and frequent ways that they did , why didn't God ever say to Moses : tell the children of Israel that if they don't obey me , after they have died , they will spend eternity in a torture chamber , run by satan and his minions , being tortured day and night for all eternity ? Why didn't God ever tell them that that is what would happen to them , if that is what was going to happen to them ? Is God deceitful ? I don't think so . Is God very honest and open towards us ? Yes , He is . God says : the soul that sinneth it shall die and the wages of sin is death . Simple , honest , open , that is God's communication with us . He is not the author of confusion . How many Israelites would have been terrified into obedience if Moses had told them about an eternal torture chamber ruled over by a demon ? But that's not what Moses said because that's not what God said , anywhere in the old testament . I don't even see it in the new either , but by that time Israel was populated by all kinds of people from all kinds of religious , or rather idolatrous backgrounds who believed all kinds of fables and many of these myths and legends had found their way into Israel's hearts and minds . We see this in the divisions between the Pharisees and the Sadducees , both groups considered themselves to be faithful and loyal Jews but they both believed different things , they both had the scriptures ( old testament) they like us were reading the same book yet believed very different things . Why ? How did that happen ? It happens when myths and legends and fables from other civilisations creep in . If the Jews were divided then no wonder we are . We are much more aware of other cultures because they really are all around us in these last days . Just believe what it says , not what you think it says
I'm a bit confused here. You're beginning a new thread but it looks pretty much the same as the last one you began. In that thread you said that you do not like to debate. Out of respect for you, I told you that I would move on from that discussion.
So now here we are with a new thread started on the same subject. With these questions you're asking, is there a reason why you didn't just continue on in the last thread you started?
I am trying to figure out what exactly you are looking for? Are you putting these questions out and looking for answers, or are you presenting these things as this is the way it is, non-debatable?
I would like to answer a couple of your questions if that's okay. You ask, "Why is eternal torture in hell for the sinner / atheist etc , never mentioned in the Old Testament?"
You also ask, "why didn't God ever say to Moses : tell the children of Israel that if they don't obey me , after they have died , they will spend eternity in a torture chamber , run by satan and his minions , being tortured day and night for all eternity ?"
The answer to that is because there is no eternal torture chamber run by Satan and his minions. The Bible says nothing about an eternal torture chamber. To my knowledge, no one on this forum has ever mentioned anything about an eternal torture chamber.
The Bible does however speak of eternal punishment, eternal torment, and everlasting contempt.
To one of your other questions as to why, if we have the same scriptures, why do we believe different things? That is a great question. I mean, how dare any of us disagree with what the other person believes? If you and I have the same Bible, why are we in disagreement?
And yet, this question is not difficult to answer. Did you know that it is necessary that there be division in the church?
You are correct however that the Bible does not say anything about an eternal torture chamber. I do agree with you on that.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially those that BELIEVE.
Hebrews 2:8 .... we see not yet ALL THINGS put under him .....
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when ALL THINGS shall be subdued unto him ....God will be ALL in ALL....
Revelation 13:8 And all they that dwell upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP HIM, whose names are NOT WRITTEN in the book of life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world.
Psalms 86:9 All nations whom thou has made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall come and worship before thee.
Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, Oh Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee, for thy judgements are made manifest.
You quoted Revelation 15:4 in your post which will LITERALLY be fulfille from now on, day after day, and Revelation 6:15-17 reveal that
15 The kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid(wiil hide)themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 saying to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the Lamb:
17 For the great Day of His WRATH(the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Matthew 25:34 and 41 NS 46
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2 Peter 3:11-12 and 7-8
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED(dismantled), what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of GOD(the Lord's Day, the seventh Day or seventh millennium), wherein the heavens being on fire shall be DISSOLVED(i.e. the two Covenants will be DISSOLVED), and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?(Yes, GOD is a devouring /consuming fire-See Isaiah 33:12-14)
7 But the heavens(two Covenants)and the earth(Israel,the dry land,the clay),which are now,by the same Word are kept in store,reserved unto fire against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But,beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years,and a thousand years as one Day.
The battle is/will be against three unclean spirits like frogs-Re.16:13-15-(why frogs?)
The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (By the way,remember that "Blessed are the meek:for they shall inherit the earth"- Matthew 5:5 combined with Revelation 5:10.)
16And the four and twenty elders,which sat before GOD on their seats,fell upon their faces,and worshipped GOD,
17Saying, We give thee thanks,O Lord God Almighty,which art,and wast,and art to come;because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,and hast reigned.
18And the NATIONS were(WILL BE)angry,and thy WRATH is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be Judged,and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name,small and great;and shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth.
There will be WAR in heaven:Michael and his angels fought(will fight)against the Dragon;and the Dragon fought(will fight)and his angels-Re.12:7.
And I saw one of his heads(one of his 7 heads) as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the Beast(Beast of sea-the Gentile Beast).And they worshipped the Dragon(the Devil-son of perdition- 2Thessalonians 2:2-3)which gave power unto the Beast(Beast of sea):and they worshipped the Beast,saying,Who is like unto the Beast?who is able to make WAR with him?- Revelation 13:3-4.(Michael is.The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever)
Re.6:15-17: 15And the kings of the earth,and the great men,and the rich men,and the chief captains,and the mighty men,and every bondman,and every free man,hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us,and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne,and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great Day of his WRATH is come;who shall be able to stand?
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
THE BEST PROTECTION AGAINST THE DARKNESS OF ERROR IS THE LIGHT OF TRUTH."
should the words "do not pronounce judgment before the time" keep us from identifying false teachers or from naming them?
I don't think so. "Don't pronounce judgment before the time" means "Don't do what only Christ can do at that last day - on the day of judgment." Don't presume to know the heart like Jesus will know the heart on that day. Only Christ "will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart."
But for now, our job is indeed to do mouth judgment, writing judgment, behavior judgment - not a heart judgment, but mouth and writing and behavior judgment. When a mouth speaks unbiblical, destructive teaching, when a blog or an article or a book publishes unbiblical and destructive teaching, when a body - a human body, a physical body - behaves with unbiblical and destructive behavior, in all these cases, we are to be discerning.
And according to Ephesians 5:11 we are to expose the error. "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them." "Censure them; show them to be wrong" is what the word elegch means.
Amen indeed, brother S. Spencer. And the best & proper way to counteract false teaching is simply to present the Truth from God's Word. And whenever false teaching surfaces, whether in the Church or by personal interactions, we must never shy away from it, but present Truth simply as a biblical yardstick by which all may judge. And to those who would further dispute the Word, then an on-going discussion will help to engage our hearts & minds more fully to the revealed Scriptures.
We have to be aware of Satan's schemes. Some of this is his distraction.
I try to warn others of the schemes and remind them of who's behind them, not really interested in the debates.
Everyone amongst us is not of the wheat. Some or tares,
Every debate doesn't Identify the wheat or tares.
We Brothern sometimes end up in a debate but it shouldn't cause hate.
Hate for the Brothern signifies one lacking the Spirit of Christ.
Also we do not abandon the flock and join league with an enemy of the faith, "one who denies the work of the cross" just to be contentious.
The Holyspirit wouldn't cause us to do that!
It's not flesh and blood where the battle lies. It's a spiritual warfare. It's the spirit of truth what is being attacked by the father of lies.
There were warnings in early church of this very thing.
We must not let certain doctrinal debates consume us and begin a life long study trying to combat them, We can lead ourselves astray and neglect the great commission.
That's the primary attack of Satan.
When you see one join league with this movement or individual they have joined them in their work and shouldn't be spared.
Psalms 1:1 says Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
God bless you and others for all that you do Brother.
Thank you brother S. Spencer - all truth in what you've shared here. Especially, when the Gospel message should be our only focus to save errant souls from a Christ-less eternity. And yet we have here in this KJBO Site, the opportunity to engage with others (believers & non-believers alike) to discuss questions & other matters of interest. Often they are quite beneficial as my own reading of the Scriptures are sometimes challenged & I need to make the effort to not permit strongly held beliefs to influence what I read from others. A hard thing to do, but when one puts himself in the other's shoes, he can understand the matter in a more informed way - and this can only happen within a back-and-forth discussion. Nothing may come of it, but may just cause all who read the thread to re-look at those relevant Scriptures in a new way. The Holy Spirit certainly uses any number of ways to draw us to His Truth - hopefully, each one of us comes in with that understanding & of the grave responsibility in sharing to such a wide audience. Blessings.
Speaking of Judgment,JESUS said"the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net,that was cast into the sea,and gathered of every kind:Which,when it was full,they drew to shore,and gathered the good into vessels,but cast the bad away-Mat.13:47-48 compared with Mat.25:30.
Paul said:"For we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ;that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done,whether it be good or bad-2Cor.5:10.
JESUS said: John 12:47-48:->47 if any man hear my words, and believe not,I Judge him not:for I came not to judge the world,but to save the world.48 He that rejecteth me,and receiveth not my words,hath one that Judgeth him:the WORD that I have spoken,the same shall Judge him in the last Day(seventh and last Day,seventh and last millennium.Well,it already arrived)
JESUS is in heaven now and is sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.He will not come here again except to caught His people to the new heavenly place( Luke 20:35-36 combined with 1Thes.4:15-17),but it is necessary to have lamp and oil, otherwise will be lost for ever.But Judgment will be given to the saints of the most High;the time came that the saints shall possess the kingdom,and they shall take away the dominion,to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion,and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,and all dominions shall serve and obey him-Dan.7:22&26-27.
And Peter said:The time is come that Judgment must begin at the house of GOD:and if it first begin at us,what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of GOD?And if the righteous scarcely be saved,where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?1Pe.4:17-18
JESUS warned,saying:at midnight there was a crie made,Behold,the bridegroom came;go ye out to meet him,they that are ready go in with him to the marriage:the door shall be shut.
35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth(JESUS sowed) and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth(JESUS was the sower of the Gospel of GOD's Kingdom), and ANOTHER reapeth.
Matthew 13:27 and 30:
27 ... Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
30 Let both grow together until the harvest(said JESUS around 2000 years ago): and in the time of harvest (the time arrived) I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life ETERNAL: that both he that soweth(JESUS sowed) and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-2 combined with Revelation 14:14-20
So let's begin with Jesus. Matthew 7:15: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." And the word beware means all of us should be alert, but especially shepherds, to identify not just false teaching, but false teachers, whose ways are subtle. They're clothing themselves with lamb's wool while they're wolves.
And Paul used the same Greek word for beware in Acts 20:28-29 when he said, "Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. . . . I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock."
"IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE FLOCK, WE SHOULD EXPOSE FALSE TEACHERS AND MINIMIZE THE SPREAD OF THE GANGRENE."
Jesus used the same word again in Matthew 16:6, but he got more specific: "Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Paul had the same kind of group in mind and the same kind of error in mind in Philippians 3:2 and 3:18: "Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh." And then verse 18:
"For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ." Then in Romans 16:17, he warned, "Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them."
To avoid them, you have to know who they are. You can't avoid somebody if you don't know who they are. This idea of identifying and avoiding shows up in
1 Corinthians 5:11;
2 Thessalonians 3:6,
2 Thessalonians 3:14;
2 Timothy 3:5;
2 John 1:10.
In other words, Christians, and shepherds in particular, should be discerning and alert to behavior and teaching that dishonors Christ and destroys people - and not treat it in a casual or harmless way.
And then in 1 Timothy 5:19-20, Paul went beyond just "avoid them" to "rebuke them publicly." So, speaking of elders who persist in error, he said, "Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin" - and that can be sin of false doctrine or sin of evil behavior, anyone who does not accept correction - "rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.."
And then Paul went on and actually named destructive false teachers:
"Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me" 2 Timothy 4:10.
You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes" 2 Timothy 1:15.
"By rejecting this [faith and a good conscience], some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander" 1 Timothy 1:19-20.
"Their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus" ( 2 Timothy 2:17).
Paul names at least six false teachers that the church should watch out for.
So, I infer from Jesus and Paul and Luke and John that false teaching and destructive behavior are present dangers in this fallen world for the church. And all of us - especially shepherds, pastors - should be alert and discerning to identify and, in appropriate ways, expose. In order to protect the flock, we should expose them and minimize the spread of the gangrene (as Paul calls it).
I am thankful that Jonathan is a believer as is his dad, my brother. God will provide Jonathan what is needed. He was brought up apart from my brother and his Mom was very neglectful of him during his childhood. Supposedly homeschooling him but did not. He can barely read. When he was having allergic reactions his Mom would not take him to the emergency room (which was just around the block0 and he would call an ambulance. He left her home at 18 and came to live with his dad, my brother, who had been separated from his mom since he was 1 1/2 years old. Over the past 10 years he has opened up more about what he went through at his home with his mom. So sad. This lack of education affects his ability to get a job that will give him independence and a salary that will be sufficient to meet his financial needs. He will probably be living with my brother for most of his adult life.
The gigs he just recently got in place, having found a few other musicians to play with, were a blessing, an outlet for him to make money doing what he is very good at and really enjoys.
I know that God will help him and that He hears all of our prayers. Thank you for yours.
30And the times of this ignorance GOD winked at;but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because He hath appointed a Day,in the which He will Judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto ALL men,in that He hath raised him from the dead.
Mat.28:18-And JESUS came and spake unto them,saying,All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Luke 10:19-20
19Behold,I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,and over ALL the power of the enemy:and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not,that the spirits are subject unto you;but rather rejoice,because your names are written in heaven.
Joel 2:1-11
1Blow the trumpet in Zion,sound an alarm in my holy mountain:let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:the Lord's Day comes...
2A Day of darkness and of gloominess,a Day of clouds and of thick darkness...a great people and a strong there has not been ever the like,neither shall be any more after it...
3A fire devoures before them;and behind them a flame burns:the land is as the garden of Eden before them,and behind them a desolate wilderness...
5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoures the stubble,as a strong people set in battle array.
6Before their face the people shall be much pained...
7They shall run like mighty men;they shall climb the wall like men of war;and they shall march every one on his ways,and they shall not break their ranks:
8...and when they fall upon the sword,they shall not be wounded.
9They shall run to and fro in the city;they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses;they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10The earth shall quake before them...
11And the Lord shall utter His voice before His army:His camp is very great:He is strong that executes His Word:the Day of the Lord is great,very terrible;and who can abide it?
It has been said that God will; in general either indicate a yes; no or later as to His answers to prayer. Lately I have recognized doors closing repeatedly in attempting to extricate myself from my current living situation with communication not being received; or possibilities ending up in dead ends. If only we could be so tenacious when God indicates a yes to our prayers as we can be seeking our own will when wanting things our way; or out of sync with God's timing in bringing a clear answer to our requests.
Often in relationships conflict leads us to doubt God's response favoring our petitions. Most likely this indicates indeed He is working in the situation; as the spiritual resistance is bound to occur from the enemy when the Lord is planning to give us favor in a certain area. As to HOW God intends to answer things; it is not in the mind of natural man to desire to show unconditional love to unreasonable people which later on bears fruit if we persevere. It is also inconceivable to understand how God can bring out of death and other chaos in life peace beyond understanding; using it to wake others up to eternal truths; for instance. This is a profound mystery; we surely do not understand how God uses evil for His purposes; but ultimately all rewards we receive in glory are due to sacrifice and suffering while here on earth.
Perseverance brings great reward and this is certainly true with prayer. Oftentimes it seems answers come long after we have forgotten the request; or even the situation and individuals involved with a salvation as one example. We should be equally open to recognizing the answered prayers of others and inform them of such to bring rejoicing when they come to pass. Many times we also cease striving for someone when something appears to be answered; such as with one family member saved and not striving in prayer for more. We need to be open to whom; how; when and where to pray in the Spirit.
I could only imagine in mind what it is that has caused you this grief. I dare not intrude into your own personal affairs, but it's recognizable as something that is close to my heart. So, I sympathize with you, as I too have sought for answers, and much like you, that door remains shut. Yet in my own personal pursuit to cut off from my life things that I may see as a hindrance, God has given much peace. My prayer for you is that GOD would give you that same peace. Knowing that all things work together for good to them who love God, and you, who are called according to His purpose. May you be strengthen in your inner man, and may the light of our glorious Savior shine down upon you. In Jesus name
1 Timothy 4:1 Continuing my thought on this subject which is not one subject in particular, but has to do with what's written in 1Tim 4:11."Now the Spirit speaks" CLEARLY "that in the latter times". Speaking of the last days. My focus is mainly on the part of the verse that says "giving heed to seducing spirits". I feel that is probably the most important part of the verse, and I'd like to start with a question, and my question is "What are we giving heed to"? To heed, or give your attention to. We can fight off a lot of things, and be totally convinced in our minds, that we have it altogether, but there's always something that the devil knows about us, that triggers us. I wrote in my last comment how we don't battle with the same things. Your struggle, or fight in this could look completely different than mine, but we're both fighting the same enemy. The devil. That's important to understand. For one, it helps us to be sensitive to others, and not to always expect others to be at the same level as we are spiritually. One could be battling with anger, and another unforgiveness, we just don't know, but all in all the one causing the havoc in our individual lives is the devil. The reason why a person struggles with these things is because they're giving their attention to something that is ungodly, or unfavorable to the LORD. They've offended God, and have not sought God in repentance. They've given heed to, or have allowed themselves to be swallowed up by that very thing they've given their attention to. This is my main point that I'm wanting to make, and that is, because they've done this, they are now bound, they've given heed, and are now in the grip of Satan. I would like to continue on this subject, but one thing I want to point out is we must keep the door of our heart shut to things which are offensive to GOD. Recognizing the difference between light, and darkness. Not allowing the devil a foot. The saying is true "Give the devil a foot and he'll take a mile."
Our current situation is grave, but not over whelming; because our GOD is sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Jeremiah waited 10 days, Daniel waited 21 days. We Saints shall wait patiently for the LORD and HIS answer.
May we be faithful in our SAVIOR, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, as we wait. We are called to be fruitful in our carrying out HIS desire for us. To make disciples Matthew 28: 18-20; to pray for those in authority 1 Timothy 2:1-3; submit ourselves to GOD and resist the devil James 4: 7, 8.
GOD to shine HIS face on all the saints and bless us that we may also be a
Remember: Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of GOD- Romans 10:17. The Word is GOD, understand? Yes, the Word is the invisible GOD, self-executable. For example: The Word said: Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a VIRGIN shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
The Word said(the Word is GOD): Isaiah 9:6-7:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with Judgment and with Justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (By the way, GOD calleth those things which be not as though they were- Romans 4:17-understand? The Word is GOD, self-executing).
Have you never read Hebrews 11 ?
I'm a bit confused here. You're beginning a new thread but it looks pretty much the same as the last one you began. In that thread you said that you do not like to debate. Out of respect for you, I told you that I would move on from that discussion.
So now here we are with a new thread started on the same subject. With these questions you're asking, is there a reason why you didn't just continue on in the last thread you started?
I am trying to figure out what exactly you are looking for? Are you putting these questions out and looking for answers, or are you presenting these things as this is the way it is, non-debatable?
I would like to answer a couple of your questions if that's okay. You ask, "Why is eternal torture in hell for the sinner / atheist etc , never mentioned in the Old Testament?"
You also ask, "why didn't God ever say to Moses : tell the children of Israel that if they don't obey me , after they have died , they will spend eternity in a torture chamber , run by satan and his minions , being tortured day and night for all eternity ?"
The answer to that is because there is no eternal torture chamber run by Satan and his minions. The Bible says nothing about an eternal torture chamber. To my knowledge, no one on this forum has ever mentioned anything about an eternal torture chamber.
The Bible does however speak of eternal punishment, eternal torment, and everlasting contempt.
To one of your other questions as to why, if we have the same scriptures, why do we believe different things? That is a great question. I mean, how dare any of us disagree with what the other person believes? If you and I have the same Bible, why are we in disagreement?
And yet, this question is not difficult to answer. Did you know that it is necessary that there be division in the church?
You are correct however that the Bible does not say anything about an eternal torture chamber. I do agree with you on that.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially those that BELIEVE.
Hebrews 2:8 .... we see not yet ALL THINGS put under him .....
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when ALL THINGS shall be subdued unto him ....God will be ALL in ALL....
Revelation 13:8 And all they that dwell upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP HIM, whose names are NOT WRITTEN in the book of life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world.
Psalms 86:9 All nations whom thou has made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall come and worship before thee.
Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, Oh Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee, for thy judgements are made manifest.
God bless you
You quoted Revelation 15:4 in your post which will LITERALLY be fulfille from now on, day after day, and Revelation 6:15-17 reveal that
15 The kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid(wiil hide)themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 saying to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the Lamb:
17 For the great Day of His WRATH(the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Matthew 25:34 and 41 NS 46
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2 Peter 3:11-12 and 7-8
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED(dismantled), what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of GOD(the Lord's Day, the seventh Day or seventh millennium), wherein the heavens being on fire shall be DISSOLVED(i.e. the two Covenants will be DISSOLVED), and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?(Yes, GOD is a devouring /consuming fire-See Isaiah 33:12-14)
7 But the heavens(two Covenants)and the earth(Israel,the dry land,the clay),which are now,by the same Word are kept in store,reserved unto fire against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But,beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years,and a thousand years as one Day.
The battle is/will be against three unclean spirits like frogs-Re.16:13-15-(why frogs?)
Get ready
Yes,Jema, as you said:"Thy Kingdom Come."
Re.11:15-18
The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (By the way,remember that "Blessed are the meek:for they shall inherit the earth"- Matthew 5:5 combined with Revelation 5:10.)
16And the four and twenty elders,which sat before GOD on their seats,fell upon their faces,and worshipped GOD,
17Saying, We give thee thanks,O Lord God Almighty,which art,and wast,and art to come;because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,and hast reigned.
18And the NATIONS were(WILL BE)angry,and thy WRATH is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be Judged,and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name,small and great;and shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth.
There will be WAR in heaven:Michael and his angels fought(will fight)against the Dragon;and the Dragon fought(will fight)and his angels-Re.12:7.
And I saw one of his heads(one of his 7 heads) as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the Beast(Beast of sea-the Gentile Beast).And they worshipped the Dragon(the Devil-son of perdition- 2Thessalonians 2:2-3)which gave power unto the Beast(Beast of sea):and they worshipped the Beast,saying,Who is like unto the Beast?who is able to make WAR with him?- Revelation 13:3-4.(Michael is.The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever)
Re.6:15-17: 15And the kings of the earth,and the great men,and the rich men,and the chief captains,and the mighty men,and every bondman,and every free man,hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us,and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne,and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great Day of his WRATH is come;who shall be able to stand?
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
THE BEST PROTECTION AGAINST THE DARKNESS OF ERROR IS THE LIGHT OF TRUTH."
should the words "do not pronounce judgment before the time" keep us from identifying false teachers or from naming them?
I don't think so. "Don't pronounce judgment before the time" means "Don't do what only Christ can do at that last day - on the day of judgment." Don't presume to know the heart like Jesus will know the heart on that day. Only Christ "will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart."
But for now, our job is indeed to do mouth judgment, writing judgment, behavior judgment - not a heart judgment, but mouth and writing and behavior judgment. When a mouth speaks unbiblical, destructive teaching, when a blog or an article or a book publishes unbiblical and destructive teaching, when a body - a human body, a physical body - behaves with unbiblical and destructive behavior, in all these cases, we are to be discerning.
And according to Ephesians 5:11 we are to expose the error. "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them." "Censure them; show them to be wrong" is what the word elegch means.
God bless
These times shouldn't be no surprise,
These days were prophesied.
We have to be aware of Satan's schemes. Some of this is his distraction.
I try to warn others of the schemes and remind them of who's behind them, not really interested in the debates.
Everyone amongst us is not of the wheat. Some or tares,
Every debate doesn't Identify the wheat or tares.
We Brothern sometimes end up in a debate but it shouldn't cause hate.
Hate for the Brothern signifies one lacking the Spirit of Christ.
Also we do not abandon the flock and join league with an enemy of the faith, "one who denies the work of the cross" just to be contentious.
The Holyspirit wouldn't cause us to do that!
It's not flesh and blood where the battle lies. It's a spiritual warfare. It's the spirit of truth what is being attacked by the father of lies.
There were warnings in early church of this very thing.
We must not let certain doctrinal debates consume us and begin a life long study trying to combat them, We can lead ourselves astray and neglect the great commission.
That's the primary attack of Satan.
When you see one join league with this movement or individual they have joined them in their work and shouldn't be spared.
Psalms 1:1 says Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
God bless you and others for all that you do Brother.
"The Holy Spirit certainly uses any number of ways to draw us to His Truth!
That is an amazing truth.
God bless.
Speaking of Judgment,JESUS said"the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net,that was cast into the sea,and gathered of every kind:Which,when it was full,they drew to shore,and gathered the good into vessels,but cast the bad away-Mat.13:47-48 compared with Mat.25:30.
Paul said:"For we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ;that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done,whether it be good or bad-2Cor.5:10.
JESUS said: John 12:47-48:->47 if any man hear my words, and believe not,I Judge him not:for I came not to judge the world,but to save the world.48 He that rejecteth me,and receiveth not my words,hath one that Judgeth him:the WORD that I have spoken,the same shall Judge him in the last Day(seventh and last Day,seventh and last millennium.Well,it already arrived)
JESUS is in heaven now and is sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.He will not come here again except to caught His people to the new heavenly place( Luke 20:35-36 combined with 1Thes.4:15-17),but it is necessary to have lamp and oil, otherwise will be lost for ever.But Judgment will be given to the saints of the most High;the time came that the saints shall possess the kingdom,and they shall take away the dominion,to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion,and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,and all dominions shall serve and obey him-Dan.7:22&26-27.
And Peter said:The time is come that Judgment must begin at the house of GOD:and if it first begin at us,what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of GOD?And if the righteous scarcely be saved,where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?1Pe.4:17-18
JESUS warned,saying:at midnight there was a crie made,Behold,the bridegroom came;go ye out to meet him,they that are ready go in with him to the marriage:the door shall be shut.
Oseas.
I suppose as long as the Lord delays his coming we should be spreading the Gospel.
God bless.
John 4:35-37 - JESUS said:
35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth(JESUS sowed) and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth(JESUS was the sower of the Gospel of GOD's Kingdom), and ANOTHER reapeth.
Matthew 13:27 and 30:
27 ... Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
30 Let both grow together until the harvest(said JESUS around 2000 years ago): and in the time of harvest (the time arrived) I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life ETERNAL: that both he that soweth(JESUS sowed) and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-2 combined with Revelation 14:14-20
GOD bless
So let's begin with Jesus. Matthew 7:15: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." And the word beware means all of us should be alert, but especially shepherds, to identify not just false teaching, but false teachers, whose ways are subtle. They're clothing themselves with lamb's wool while they're wolves.
And Paul used the same Greek word for beware in Acts 20:28-29 when he said, "Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. . . . I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock."
"IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE FLOCK, WE SHOULD EXPOSE FALSE TEACHERS AND MINIMIZE THE SPREAD OF THE GANGRENE."
Jesus used the same word again in Matthew 16:6, but he got more specific: "Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Paul had the same kind of group in mind and the same kind of error in mind in Philippians 3:2 and 3:18: "Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh." And then verse 18:
"For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ." Then in Romans 16:17, he warned, "Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them."
BEWARE OF THE WOLVES.
God bless.
heavenly father
in the mighty name of jesus
your vessel"s
i prayed not to be exposed to false doctrine
there were two message
thank you s spencer
god
bless you
God bless
To avoid them, you have to know who they are. You can't avoid somebody if you don't know who they are. This idea of identifying and avoiding shows up in
1 Corinthians 5:11;
2 Thessalonians 3:6,
2 Thessalonians 3:14;
2 Timothy 3:5;
2 John 1:10.
In other words, Christians, and shepherds in particular, should be discerning and alert to behavior and teaching that dishonors Christ and destroys people - and not treat it in a casual or harmless way.
And then in 1 Timothy 5:19-20, Paul went beyond just "avoid them" to "rebuke them publicly." So, speaking of elders who persist in error, he said, "Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin" - and that can be sin of false doctrine or sin of evil behavior, anyone who does not accept correction - "rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.."
And then Paul went on and actually named destructive false teachers:
"Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me" 2 Timothy 4:10.
You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes" 2 Timothy 1:15.
"By rejecting this [faith and a good conscience], some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander" 1 Timothy 1:19-20.
"Their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus" ( 2 Timothy 2:17).
Paul names at least six false teachers that the church should watch out for.
So, I infer from Jesus and Paul and Luke and John that false teaching and destructive behavior are present dangers in this fallen world for the church. And all of us - especially shepherds, pastors - should be alert and discerning to identify and, in appropriate ways, expose. In order to protect the flock, we should expose them and minimize the spread of the gangrene (as Paul calls it).
AVOID, REBUKE, AND CALL OUT.
God bless
I am thankful that Jonathan is a believer as is his dad, my brother. God will provide Jonathan what is needed. He was brought up apart from my brother and his Mom was very neglectful of him during his childhood. Supposedly homeschooling him but did not. He can barely read. When he was having allergic reactions his Mom would not take him to the emergency room (which was just around the block0 and he would call an ambulance. He left her home at 18 and came to live with his dad, my brother, who had been separated from his mom since he was 1 1/2 years old. Over the past 10 years he has opened up more about what he went through at his home with his mom. So sad. This lack of education affects his ability to get a job that will give him independence and a salary that will be sufficient to meet his financial needs. He will probably be living with my brother for most of his adult life.
The gigs he just recently got in place, having found a few other musicians to play with, were a blessing, an outlet for him to make money doing what he is very good at and really enjoys.
I know that God will help him and that He hears all of our prayers. Thank you for yours.
30And the times of this ignorance GOD winked at;but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because He hath appointed a Day,in the which He will Judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto ALL men,in that He hath raised him from the dead.
Mat.28:18-And JESUS came and spake unto them,saying,All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Luke 10:19-20
19Behold,I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,and over ALL the power of the enemy:and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not,that the spirits are subject unto you;but rather rejoice,because your names are written in heaven.
Joel 2:1-11
1Blow the trumpet in Zion,sound an alarm in my holy mountain:let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:the Lord's Day comes...
2A Day of darkness and of gloominess,a Day of clouds and of thick darkness...a great people and a strong there has not been ever the like,neither shall be any more after it...
3A fire devoures before them;and behind them a flame burns:the land is as the garden of Eden before them,and behind them a desolate wilderness...
5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoures the stubble,as a strong people set in battle array.
6Before their face the people shall be much pained...
7They shall run like mighty men;they shall climb the wall like men of war;and they shall march every one on his ways,and they shall not break their ranks:
8...and when they fall upon the sword,they shall not be wounded.
9They shall run to and fro in the city;they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses;they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10The earth shall quake before them...
11And the Lord shall utter His voice before His army:His camp is very great:He is strong that executes His Word:the Day of the Lord is great,very terrible;and who can abide it?
It has been said that God will; in general either indicate a yes; no or later as to His answers to prayer. Lately I have recognized doors closing repeatedly in attempting to extricate myself from my current living situation with communication not being received; or possibilities ending up in dead ends. If only we could be so tenacious when God indicates a yes to our prayers as we can be seeking our own will when wanting things our way; or out of sync with God's timing in bringing a clear answer to our requests.
Often in relationships conflict leads us to doubt God's response favoring our petitions. Most likely this indicates indeed He is working in the situation; as the spiritual resistance is bound to occur from the enemy when the Lord is planning to give us favor in a certain area. As to HOW God intends to answer things; it is not in the mind of natural man to desire to show unconditional love to unreasonable people which later on bears fruit if we persevere. It is also inconceivable to understand how God can bring out of death and other chaos in life peace beyond understanding; using it to wake others up to eternal truths; for instance. This is a profound mystery; we surely do not understand how God uses evil for His purposes; but ultimately all rewards we receive in glory are due to sacrifice and suffering while here on earth.
Perseverance brings great reward and this is certainly true with prayer. Oftentimes it seems answers come long after we have forgotten the request; or even the situation and individuals involved with a salvation as one example. We should be equally open to recognizing the answered prayers of others and inform them of such to bring rejoicing when they come to pass. Many times we also cease striving for someone when something appears to be answered; such as with one family member saved and not striving in prayer for more. We need to be open to whom; how; when and where to pray in the Spirit.
May we be faithful in our SAVIOR, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, as we wait. We are called to be fruitful in our carrying out HIS desire for us. To make disciples Matthew 28: 18-20; to pray for those in authority 1 Timothy 2:1-3; submit ourselves to GOD and resist the devil James 4: 7, 8.
GOD to shine HIS face on all the saints and bless us that we may also be a
blessing unto others.
November 18, 2023