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  • Shabbat Keeper - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Hi Chris, in answer to you're question why don't I address the scriptures you quoted. First of all, I don't entirely follow what you are saying. Would you summarize the gist of your thoughts in one sentence? it would be easier for me. Second, I don't have hours of time to look everything up and thoughtfully respond.

    Is this the gist of what your saying: the unsaved will be tormented eternally?
  • Chris - In Reply - 4 months ago
    You're quite right, Shabbat Keeper, that would be the gist of my comments: "that the unsaved will be tormented eternally". I gave those Scriptures earlier on for you to look at & they all point to a time of final judgement, where those who die in their sins without Christ are consigned into an eternity of suffering. So when you get time, have a look at those verses/passages (found in my two page comment), & let us know how you read them - are they simply idle threatening words from Jesus, maybe words that we should overlook/avoid, or is there another meaning to them? I know the verses that you, Jema & others refer to, where death is seen as both a finality & a judgement. And if these verses only were there, I could agree with you. But they are not the only verses that speak of death & then eternity - there are other passages as well. So I would be interested in how you read those verses, so that I (and maybe others here) may know the way you understand & exegete the Scriptures. Thank you.

    Just as an unrelated example: I've often given John 17:5, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was", asking for comment. I have always hoped that someone who rejects the Deity of Christ (i.e. Christ came from God's Person & wasn't just a supernaturally created Being) would exegete that verse for me. But so far none have come back on it. I wonder why? Simply because it (& others such as I gave you to consider about eternal suffering), are incompatible to the beliefs that are strongly held. So, I look forward to you thoughts whenever you are able. Thank you.
  • Shabbat Keeper - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Hi Chris, I will definitely try to read all the scripture you noted and get back to you with my 2 cents. Thanks for the discussion.

    May Jesus continue to bless you and protect you.
  • Carleton - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Good morning brother Chris and all. Eternal suffering may be a forever consciousness of the Love of God, yet for ever separated from that Love. This time that we are in remains a gift to know Jesus Christ and him crucified as he is God's life. I agree that we cannot really consider the Gift by Jesus Christ without considering eternal damnation. This is part of the reason that the Kingdom of Peace is important, it keeps us present in the Lord as we are prone to wander towards another day. He must know us for us to know Him. My thoughts. Love to all.
  • Chris - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Thank you brother Carleton for those thoughts: that indeed that consciousness past the grave can well include a recalling of the life once lived which continually spurned the Love of God & His Spirit's urging for that upward look. As I read your comment here, my thoughts went to Galatians 6:17, "From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus". Though this verse doesn't directly refer to what you wrote, I see in that chapter the apostle's heart's desire for the salvation of his people: not only for God's Peace & Mercy to be upon them to come to that Truth, but that his efforts, witness & prayer were tireless, knowing that persecution would be his lot for his remaining days.

    There were those who insisted on circumcision coupled with salvation to avoid certain persecution - Paul stood for Truth which is what mattered to him & he continued to proclaim 'salvation without any works'. And he did so even under great persecution. I ask, 'wouldn't it have been easier & less painful to him to present a watered-down Gospel, one where everything will work out in the end, that those who resist it will just die & no longer be remembered?' Yet, the marks of persecution were on his body; why would any man take the buffeting of men even to the point of death unless the rescue of souls from an eternity of suffering & torment was his only motivation & reason for persevering? Such concern & love is not just to get everyone into God's Kingdom, but to prevent them from entering that awful place reserved for the Devil & his angels; and the Scriptures speak volumes on this. Blessings to you.
  • Carleton - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Very beautifully written brother Chris, Thank you!

    Perhaps after regeneration in Christ Jesus there will be sanctification if we are willing. Sanctification keeps our individual needs close to Jesus and as far from damnation like a gulf. Perhaps sanctification is sometimes confused with persecution? If we feel entitled to some thing and it is taken away, it might be sanctification. Maybe sanctification is Mercy multiplied?

    Some evening (over here) thoughts.
  • Shabbat Keeper - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Sanctification is the lifelong process of learning to be like Jesus. Little by little, lesson by lesson, our character and personality transforms. We become a people fit for heaven. We are justified (forgiven) then we are sanctified.
  • Carleton - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Good evening Shabbat Keeper. Yes a new believer is both justified and sanctified. Hebrews 10:14 . Sanctification will continually be available for our walk as Christians if we believe. As we are more and more sanctified the easier we turn from unwilling sin towards our justified state at the Cross. Life occurrences in the flesh are for all, but sanctification is reserved for the just. We must not resist sanctification, it is God's grace and mercy for His people. There are many scriptures for our sanctification on this very subject so as you said we can learn in many ways in our lives in Jesus. Regarding my earlier thought, we do not want to confuse persecution with sanctification. One is from God and one from man, only man belongs to God so we must consider our justification in all matters of life to be sure what is the perfect Will of God in our very own walk. Maybe another time I can post some of my favorite scriptures on the subject. One last thought: Sanctification means to be set apart for a sacred purpose and it also means to cleanse from all impurities. Time for the body's rest my way.

    :)
  • Rainwalker - In Reply - 4 months ago
    the passovers were shadows of things to come. The Levitical priesthood is done, now it is the order of Melchizedek, applying "old covenant terms to a new "order" is erroneous. just saying
  • Shabbat Keeper - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Hi Jema, True. The unbeliever won't know. That's the mercy of God.
  • Rainwalker - In Reply - 4 months ago
    it always seems that people don't understand that the punishment is "eternal", the Fire of the Living God "consumes", and will be forever, just not eternal "torment"... Iv'e come to the understanding that our Father has much more "mercy" than people.
  • Jesse A - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Wages of sin are death; The body (flesh) is sinful it will die.

    Now Spiritual : When The body dies.

    If we reject Jesus as our savior there is no salvation. When we die in our sin and unrepentants, our soul is separated from him, and cast into Hell. This is the 2nd Death.

    If we accept him , that he truly is the Son of God, he will come in to us and dwell with us by his Holy Spirit . Therefore as he died on the cross we died with him. (towards our flesh), becoming a new creation by the Holy Spirit.

    Walk in the Spirit, talk in the Spirit and Pray in the Spirit.

    Now with christ we have everlasting life. (Heaven)(Spiritual) To be with him for eternity in his presence.

    When our sinful mortal flesh dies our soul returns to the Father to be rewarded. And you Will not be hurt of the 2nd death.

    By rejecting him you have death (Death) (Hell) (Grave)

    Your mortal sinful flesh dies and because you rejected him he will reject you. Therefore you will spend eternity separated from his presence and the love of God. Where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.(2nd death)

    There is a mortal death and a spiritual death.

    Fleshly is (mortal) We all have a human fleshly body.

    Spiritually is (immortal) We all have a Soul ,Immortal.

    Know this, all will face Judgment. as to weather we will be with our Lord and Savior Jesus or cast from him, we will spend eternity in one of these places.

    This is in Scripture.

    No one can read scriptures and continue to think that there is no Heaven and no Hell.

    Then for what cause would we need salvation and from what?

    Jesus said everlasting life! (Infinite) I am the way the truth and the (life)

    (Death is the separation from life). Our mortal bodies will die and be separated from this mortal world and all that is in it.The 2nd death is spiritual will we live forever with Christ ? Or be (separated /death)from him . Cast into outer darkness. Hell.where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
  • Shabbat Keeper - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Hi jesse A,

    I'm reading your comment:"If we reject Jesus as our savior there is no salvation. When we die in our sin and unrepentants, our soul is separated from him, and cast into Hell. This is the 2nd Death." True! And, I would like to comment on this topic.

    The second death follows the judgement scene. Jesus, the mediator, shows the resurrected unsaved dead all their life from the books of record. (Angels follow us around recording all deeds.) And, then the unrepentant sinner bows to the LORD. He never repents. Yet , he will bow to the LORD. And, then, God by the sword of his mouth ( by his words that he speaks) the wicked will die forever. Cease to exist. No eternal life of suffering.

    Eternal life is the reward ONLY to us who are saved.

    Why would the LORD punish for ETERNITY a sinner that lived for only 70 years? Or 20 years? That makes zero sense. Our God is one of love, logic, order, reason.
  • Jema - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Thank you for your reply to me , it was an excellent post , however , where does it say in the Bible that my soul is immortal ? Also please note that I don't deny the existence of heaven or hell . Heaven is where God lives and hell , to me means the grave , death , non existance , not a place ruled over by demons in a torture chamber . Your post was clear and concise but it lacked scriptural foundation , it didn't convince me :) . I'm sorry . Please note , I do not deny the existence of heaven or hell .
  • Duncan - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Last Part.

    Conclusion

    I pray that you will read for yourself, for Hell is not An Abstract the same as the Bible which is Living the True Word of God.

    As you read the theory then comes the practical and in the practical, there is two option you are either a righteous man through the repentance at the cross or You're a sinner living in your sins in this world that is passing away with its Lust.

    A Tree is Tree whether it is Still standing or fallen and where it falls there it lays.

    Says the Preacher who was king over Jerusalem.
  • Duncan - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Part A.

    Hi

    First of all I believe the Bible is the word of God, it is true it is pure and without abomination

    It is written in

    Proverbs 8:7

    7.For my mouth shall speak truth;

    And wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

    8.All the words of my mouth are in righteousness.

    There is nothing froward or perverse in them.

    Hell is a real place and not an abstract and it was never created for man but for the devil and his fallen angels.

    In the book of Ezekiel chapter 32, The Lord spoke to His prophet Ezekiel and gave him word of Judgment to bring to pharaoh king of Egypt.

    And from verse 2 to 18 the judgment is issued to the king and all the land of Egypt

    But at the start of Chapter 32:18,

    Prophets Ezekiel receives the word of the Lord where he is informed to weep for Egypt and all its people and at the same time God revels Hell to us in this verse where Egypt is to be cast down to the depth of the earth. Egypt and famous nations which are going down to the pit.

    As we continue to read, we see that those Egyptian will be placed among those killed by the sword and those famous nation such Assyria is there, The Elams, The endomites Etc.all who are killed by the sword.

    In Verse 23

    The Lord point this for us That in Hell there is(Recesses of the Pit,)

    And the meaning of recesses is this

    1.The depths or innermost part of something

    2. a small space created by building part of a wall further back from the rest.

    All this indicating apportion or section a cage a cell in hell where this people are held.

    Another thing that stands out from this verse is that Those who are in hell they caused terror in the Land of the Living, again showing they are not living but are dead.

    In Verse 24 the last part we see the wording are in continue present tense indication this action is still happing. And I will quote the last the part on this Verse. Which is in

    Ezekeil 32:24

    yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit.

    Conclusion
  • Jesse A - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Eccl 12.7

    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Matt 10. 28

    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Roman's 6. 23

    For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is (eternal life) through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Romans 2. 7

    To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

    Corinthians 15. 51-58

    54

    So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    2nd Timothy 1. 10

    But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    So yes if you follow Christ and do the will of the Father we will abstain immortality.

    Scripturally. (Hell)

    Rev 21.8

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Matt 25. 46

    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Rev 20. 10 10

    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Rev 20. 1414

    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Rev 20. 15 15

    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    With much love and humility, I'm not trying to convince anyone. Thats for each person to decide what they wish to follow. I'm not the Author I'm just a messenger trying to speak the truth.

    May God Bless you without measure.
  • Jesse A - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Sorry, I should of proof read that.

    So yes if you follow Christ and do the will of the Father we will (abtain) immortality.

    Not (abstain) like in the previous post.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Hi Jema,

    The immortal soul has been taught for well over a thousand years, I am with you in the understanding our soul is not immortal. Scripture says we do not put on immortality until we are resurrected, 1 Cor. 15:53-54.

    The belief that our soul is immortal comes from ancient Greek philosophy, developed by Greek philosophers, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, it is called Platonism, attaining the highest form of knowledge, 1 Cor. 1:19-22 rebuts this. Then with Augustine, this theology and others became standard for the Church in the fourth century. The meaning of death also went from sleep in the grave to the separation of the soul from the body. This supports the teaching that when we die we go to heaven or we go to hell, and eternity is with Jesus or eternal punishment in the lake of fire (hell).

    Can we find Scripture to fit this theology? Yes, but we must start with the theology or doctrine and look and find Scripture to fit the theology or doctrine. We must do the opposite, with an open mind letting the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit give us the theology and doctrine. We are the body, not the head.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Jema - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Amen and thank you Ronald . I don't want to spend all my time on here defending myself and my beliefs , I get frustrated with myself because I can't put things as clearly as you do :) . Than you again .
  • Tunney on Luke 16:22 - 4 months ago
    May the LORD give us wisdom in reading, studying and applying HIS word.

    2 Timothy 2:15

    James 2:

    10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    Romans 4:

    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Ephesians 2:

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Titus 3:

    4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    May we be intercessors in CHRIST name, Isaiah 59:16, for those who have been blinded by the god of this world, 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4.

    We are called to stand in the gap for others, Ezekiel 22:30, and plant the seed of the word that others may water and that GOD will give the increase.

    Acts 15:

    8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

    9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

    10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

    11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    Salvation is by faith in CHRIST alone.

    GOD bless everyone!
  • Biblepreacher12 - 4 months ago
    Love is the bond of perfection according to Col 3:14. This is where Christianity of the hour falls short of perfection, as they believe they can not be perfect because the serpent preacher behind the pulpit isn't. The same serpent that deceived Eve has deceived Christians by using vain deceit, philosophy, theology, out-of-context verses, misconceptions, and lies.

    Without the live of the truth mankind do know know what the love of God in Christ is about 100% conditional love. Everybody claims to know God and love him, however, does God know you in Christ? The preacher preaches God loves you when it is nothing but idle words to occupy their pews every Sunday just vain deceit, vain words to get at your pocketbook and not for the saving of the soul. Without Jesus Christ the Son of God and his words in you there is no love in a man or woman as Jesus' words are spirit and life John 6:63. The preacher who preaches God is love does not themselves have a stitch of that love. The live they posess is the live of money the root of all evil, the live for your pocketbook and nothing for the saving of your soul. Sunday school is not that love of the truth. It is every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God spoken by the Son of God Jesus Christ the law of spirit and life the words of spirit and life which sents us free from the law of sin and death.

    Being a sinner is not God's love. God's live is that he washed us from all sin through the blood words of Jesus John 15:3 and Rev 1:5. In order to have something you must first posess it. In order to have love you must first posess it. No truth = no love.

    2nd Thess 2:10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong deluson, that they should believe a lie:

    [12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
  • Biblepreacher12 - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Amen, it is not money that is the root of all evil; it is the love of it 1st Timothy 6:10. Everyday we see this, churches going all out for big banquets, bigger churches, bigger sports attendees and equipment, bigger this and that more this and more that and nothing for the saving of the soul. Sports athletes on drugs, Hollywood movie actors on their 5th wife, divorce/adultery/fornication, etc. Big drug cartels shooting each other, terrorism everybody killing each other, etc. All because of the love of money. It is all corruption.

    Preachers on their 3rd wife and writing perverted books and no bible just preaching their theology and philosophy for your pocketbook to fund more corruption. "Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2nd Timothy 3:7. There is no end to their books and vain deceit which is corruption. I was in a ministry for 13 years the preacher was using money to finance his granddaughter's lifestyle as he preached we are not to be entangled with the world and everybody had to live like hermits while he was driving Cadillacs, funding his granddaughter's acting career, and involved with the holidays of the world that he preached against to his congregation. He used the money from the offerings to make CDs and tapes of his sermons and resell them to people for $10.00 each. Preached on radio, TV, etc how people are supposed to live with just barely a dime and give your money to him. I finally woke up to this after 13 years and saw that his love was money and he was corrupting his whole family and using deceit to cover up his tracks. No brotherly love was found d in his churches as he did not believe in it, it was always the wrath of God this and that. Whenever somebody got too close to the truth he used to fire off out-of-context scriptures, as it was his way of saying "back off" he was in love with his money and would rather kick people out of his church than being exposed. Just like 3rd John 1:9-10. Just like Galatians 4:17.
  • Jema - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Frank you don't have to live with someone who hits you . You need to tell her that that is totally unacceptable and that you won't tolerate it . How can two people live together in violence ? If she doesn't stop she must leave or you must leave . Say what you mean and mean what you say Frank . There is no fear in love .
  • GiGi - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Oh, my, Frank. She is abusing you. Get some help now to know how to deal with this harmful behavior on her part. If it continues to be left unchecked it will be very harmful to you even if you are not physically injured.

    You say that she has moved in with you. Did she move in with you because you just got married or were you separated for a while?

    If it was me, I would insist on some boundaries. I would tell my husband that I am not going to take these verbal and physical attacks anymore. The next time this happens I will get a restraining order to get you away from me. I love my husband, but I know that, should this happen to me, I would see that the continuance of such behavior is not only harmful to me, and I should protect myself legally, but it is also harmful to the abuser to allow him or her to continue the abuse. You are both adults. you have a say in this. You can exercise your right to be safe in your own home.

    Frank, I will be praying for you often.

    Check back with us so we can be reminded to continue in prayer for you and Emilie.
  • Jema - 4 months ago
    Today in the UK is Armastice day , remembering the dead of two world wars . There have also been hundreds of thousands deflecting from this national day of remembrance by staging pro palestine marches . UK is a democracy so this is certainly permitted . We were assured by the organisers that the march would be peaceful , we believed them . I've just watched on the news , crowds of men , six and seven deep , surging towards police officers attacking them very deliberately . The police are responding in equal measure . This conflict is divisive worldwide . We have a large muslim population in the UK , which is a very small island . I hope that wherever you are , that you keep away from this trouble , do what Rahab and her family did , stay home with your doors closed and wait for the Mercy of God .
  • Shabbat Keeper - In Reply - 4 months ago
    "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast." KJV Isaiah 26:20
  • Richard H Priday - In Reply - 4 months ago
    I assume you are in England. This is sad; and haunting seeing where a little over 100 years ago England fought at least in part to oppose the Ottomon Empire's last stand for a Caliphate in regard to the Turks. Armenia is threatening a repeat of what happened then. It is ironic with the left seemingly leaning as far as they can it isn't enough as far as Palestinian rights are concerned.

    Looking back I would suppose this is judgment; at least in part to the basically dead churches in England; who used to be a bastion of righteousness a couple hundred years ago with the great reformers and preachers and revivals in Europe that spread to the USA. There is a remnant which you are part of who truly believe. There are some who are reaching out to the youth today; and truly they will have to have a vision of their own to have any real impact on their generation. Antichrist is coming surely; to fill in the power vacuum that has existed since the end of World War two; basically. The governments are losing out to these mobs; as most who carefully worked to formulate one world government will be trampled by the results. The end result; of course is the false peace of the first seal which everyone claims to want followed by the 2nd seal which rather than being organized warfare is going to be mortal hand to hand combat most likely. The other wars come later as Israel becomes the focus of anger.

    I tend to think that Israel will increase its territorial lands through conquering all their neighbors first ( Psalm 83 and at some point Isaiah 17). This will allow them at some point to have a respite where they sign the Daniel 9:27 pact. It is not until they are feeling secure in unwalled villages that Ezekiel 38 indicates the rest of the outer nations will launch a coordinated attack. For now casualties haven't mounted in these demonstrations as any one of them could be catastrophic.

    I'll keep you in prayer and your family.

    Rich P.
  • Shabbat Keeper - In Reply - 4 months ago
    Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said "Behold your house is left unto you desolate." The great privilege given to the Jews, to be priests to the world, was taken away and given to the gentile believers at the stoning of Stephen.

    The geographical land of Israel has NO bearing upon the last days. WE believers are Israel. WE are scattered around the world. The Babylonian system wants to crush us. "Come out of her my people and be ye separate ". "Touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you."
  • Shabbat Keeper - In Reply - 4 months ago
    The anti christ IS here and HAS BEEN here for hundreds of years. The antichrist was identified by many Protestant church fathers as the office of the Pope. The Catholic/Vatican/ Jesuit system. I am NOT calling Catholic people antichrist! I was born and raised Catholic.

    Changes made by the pope:

    1. The 10 commandments. Compare the Catholic 10 commandments to any Bible translation which is based upon the Textus Receptus. In English, that is the KJV.

    2. The day of worship. God rested on the SEVENTH day and blessed it. NOT SUNDAY! The sabbath is Saturday.

    3. The Gregorian calendar changed God's calendar. God's calendar is based on the moon, and the new year in the spring.

    4. The daily clock. God said a new day begins at sunset. The pope said the new day begins at midnight.

    "And he shall speak words against the most high and shall wear out the saints of the most high AND HE SHALL THINK TO CHANGE THE TIMES AND THE LAW:" emphasis mine. KJV Daniel 7:25.


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