No problem Momsage, Sweetie is good, so is Honey and Dear and Friend.
Not wanting to get into the topic of whether or not believers are sinners, since I have never met one believer that has not sinned in some way as a believer. In this way, I did speak that I was a sinner because of what Jema had said about the speech towards you during this thread with you. I was concerned that maybe I had sinned against you in the way she mentioned and repent, apologizing to you and to the members on this site. So, if she can show me any words that Giannis or I used that fit the definition of invective, aggressive, or bullying, I would want to know.
As to our conversation here, it is fine to use strong words to make one's point, especially if one's view is a matter of importance to a person. We do not need to be wishy-washy in order to appease others. We should speak honestly, using as precise of words as we can to explain ourselves in written form. That is not easy for everyone to do. Some people are better at writing out their views than others. Our prowess at writing is not what is important, but using the opportunity afforded in this forum to enter into dialogue with others in order to understand one another as well as relate what each of use knows, perceives, and/or feels led to share.
I appreciate your firmness in your view. I appreciate that you are straight-forward. I appreciate that your love for others shows through in your posts. I appreciate you as a sister in Christ. It is good to have a friend like you on this forum. We do not need to agree on every topic, but we both have the Holy Spirit within us to lead us into harmonious fellowship, knowledge of our Lord, Jesus, and the truths of the Scriptures inspired by our great God who has deemed it best to save us.
"Not wanting to get into the topic of whether or not believers are sinners, since I have never met one believer that has not sinned in some way as a believer. In this way, I did speak that I was a sinner because of what Jema had said about the speech towards you during this thread with you. I was concerned that maybe I had sinned against you in the way she mentioned and repent, apologizing to you and to the members on this site. So, if she can show me any words that Giannis or I used that fit the definition of invective, aggressive, or bullying, I would want to know." Honestly, GiGi, I really don't know what you are referring to. I know that you and Giannis have always been very gracious and respectful in you discussions. I don't really remember responding to a post by Jema, which doesn't mean I didn't, but please don't be concerned. As I said, you and Giannis are truly loving members of this forum. As to the topic of sinning/Christians the only thing I will say is that I believe people who believe in this doctrine do not know the difference between their weakness and faults and real sin. God Bless :)
You have just said in prior post that you have never met one believer that has not sinned in some way as a believer. Here's the great problem of those which justifies themselves as keepers of the Sabbath day according to the letter of the Law, for as said James in his universal epistle- James 2:10- , "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all". What more does the Word of GOD say? Romans 2:12 ->... as many as have sinned in the Law shall be Judged by the Law, therefore, he who sins in the Law becomes guilty of all, then by the Law he will be condemned for sure. Galatians 3:11 - ...no man is justified by the Law in the sight of GOD it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Galatians 5:4 - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; ye are fallen from grace.(are wretchad)
Galatians 3:8-10
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that GOD would justify the Gentiles through faith(not by the Law), preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the Law to do them.
Romans 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the Law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Hebrews 4:
12 For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom WE MUST RENDER AN ACCOUNT.
This question leads us into another discussion. One that was recently addressed on this forum. I do not wish to revisit this topic of how one is born again, yet still able to sin, thus is a sinner, though covered by the righteousness of Christ.
Thank you. I guess I'm a bit of a ditz, but besides being upset with the use of false scripture no, I also was getting a little overwhelmed with trying to answer every post which, of course, I didn't have to do but my MILD OTC compelled me to so I needed to make a change and only concentrate on discussions from Christianlady7 and also GiGi which is what I will be doing. I believe the people on this site are my brothers and sisters in the Lord and that love for each other can really be felt here. I apologize if I have offended anyone and, again, thank you for welcoming me back. God Bless :)
Momsage, I am glad you are staying with me, friend.
I can understand how you may have felt overwhelmed.
Just a note: the quote from the epistle of Barnabas is not a false Scripture. It is like the epistle of Clement, who was bishop in Rome soon after Paul died there. A epistle is a simply a letter. We ascribe God-inspiration to the letters of Paul but not to Clement or Barnabas. This is because Paul's letters were widely distributed and accepted as being inspired by God. The letters of Clement and Barnabas (and other bishops and church leaders) were to churches or other Christians and also distributed but not as widely as those of Paul, John., Peter, James, and Jude. So that is why they are not included in the canon of Scripture.
This does not mean that they are not honest letters that describe the Christian experience of that time, though. These writers, like Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Polycarp, Ignatius (both of Antioch) were devout Christians, some of whom were martyred for not renouncing their faith in Jesus.
So please do not be fearful of reading what they say. There writings are preserved for us for a reason. But there are those who wrote letters that were frauds and heretics. So, caution is always warranted and we should always check one's writings against the teachings of Scriptures and also read up on the authors to see if their writings were considered heretical or not.
That is all for now. I hope you have a very blessed day today and gain much peace and wisdom from your study of the Word of God.
Thank you GiGi for explaining that misunderstanding so clearly. I was desiring to address it, but for certain reasons I know I shouldn't, or cannot, do so.
I sense that there is a reason for holding to a belief, that these letters by certain eminent men should be treated as spurious. When we have the Deuterocanonical (or, Apocrypha) books that are largely accepted by certain churches (including the RCC), we can easily include the writings of Clement, Polycarp, Eusebius, et al as also falling into that category. And many of these men, especially Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle John, were very much involved in the work & growth of the early Church, so their writings have always been a great help to us many centuries later to understand how the Church believed & functioned. Once we can separate these writings (not all the contents of which we might agree with), from the questionable Apocrypha (written many centuries later before & after Christ), we can begin to get to the source of matters such as Sabbath-keeping, etc. But it comes down to the thorny point: what do I want to believe or will support my belief, rather than let the Word speak - and this is something that I constantly assess within myself, lest I too fall into that trap. Hope your discussions with Momsage continue to be engaging & enlightening.
I've been reading this afternoon on this topic of non-canonical books. But it is certainly not necesary to do so.
As you said, it is good to find out how the church in the earliest times understood doctrines and practices passed down to the leaders from the apostles.
Funny thing about the "spirit" of the law, you ever notice it always includes the "letter"?.. I mean, can we adhere to the spirit of the law concerning adultery, yet be free to commit the actual act according to the letter? Of course not, the "moral law" doesn't change, the ceremonial law has been nailed to the cross.
Perhaps you have misunderstood my point concerning the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The letter int he caser of the Decalogue is very specific but the spirt of the law encompasses so much more than just the acts spoken of in the Decalogue.
We are to be morally sound in our lives, not just in our outward acts, but inwardly, being transformed by the Holy Spirit to will and do what the Father wants us to do.
My post was not meant to be dismissive concerning moral actions. We are not to kill, commit adultery, etc. according to the Decalogue, but in the teachings of Jesus (Sermon on the Mount) and Paul's words concerning the law, we are to go deeper into what the Lord requires of us-not just outward obedience as the Pharisees did, but inwardly, with pureness of heart and true desire to live godly lives in the evil world we live in daily.
Hi GiGi: This is a summing up of what I have discussed about the Sabbath.
1. The 10 commandments were commands written by God and were for all of mankind to obey until the end. 2. In the 4th COMMANDMENT God only COMMANDED that we "REST" on the seventh day of the week for our physical, mental and spiritual well being. If believers worship and fellowship together on Sunday there is no "sin" or wrong doing in this and if I put forward the idea that I was saying this I apologize. It just seems sensible to do it on the seventh day during our rest. 3. The 10 Commandments are NOT LAWS. All the laws and statues and ordinances that were given to Moses by God were based on these 10 commands of God. The sacrificial rituals were abolished by the beautiful sacrifice of Jesus so they were no more needed but we, as believers, know in our hearts to obey His COMMANDS. Actually, all souls know to obey them because they are a part of the human conscience. Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5: 17-18 We cannot pick and choose what commandments to obey. God intended for them all to be obeyed. 4. In the scriptures, from the KJB, I have given a different understanding of the verses that others claim say that the Early Church started worshipping on the first day of the week after Christ died, understandings which are completely possible within the scriptures and some that showed that the early church continued to honor the Sabbath until "ravening wolves" entered in as Paul warned they would. 5. Following the Commands of God/living under the blood of Jesus as a believer are not 2 separate things. They are all part of being a true believer, but, if others don't do it that way, it is not wrong for them until they are convicted of it and then don't obey. God Bless :)
Hey GiGi, by the way, I realize that through "writing" comments and such, things can be somewhat difficult at times to see ones "intent" with full clarity. I have an indignant streak that shows at times, but hey, it's never an argumentative tone. A challenge perhaps, nevertheless I may "earnestly contend for the faith" at times, peace and love in Christ to you.
Thank you for your questions, Christianlady7; I assume that they are directed to whoever wishes to respond. There has been much discussion on this subject recently - you may care to pore over them as well. But if I may, I will respond to you now also with a series of questions to consider.
You mentioned, "we change things from Elohim's original intent or design...". In general, yes we have a tendency to do that, sometimes wilfully to suit our inclinations & desires, & other times, because we try to make them fit into a society & norms in which we live. So my questions: what then was Yahweh's original intent & design for the giving of the Law (the Ten Commandments)? To whom was it given? What was its purpose? And did it have an expiry date? Was there any Law instituted subsequent to it? As you no doubt have read through the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) & the apostolic teaching in the New Testament concerning these matters (especially in Romans, Galatians, & Hebrews), you will learn the answers.
Now why do some Christians hold onto the Ten Commandments as if they still applied to them, I cannot tell for sure; except that maybe they haven't thought through the questions I've shared here & even if they have, it might come down to, 'well it is in the Bible & it is given from the Mouth of God, so we must accept them & apply them even for today'. This answer sounds good, but in all things pertaining to the Bible, we need to be asking ourselves questions about the passages, doctrines, or teachings we read about, so that we not only know the Mind of God & His Purposes in them, but also if and how to apply them to us as His Church today. Blessings.
Hi Christianlady7: Welcome to this discussion. God wrote the 10 commandments Himself and then gave Moses the laws, statues and ordinances to build on this foundation of His commandments. While they were originally given to the Jews, obviously, all the laws GOD gave are meant for mankind for always. Jesus said He came to fulfil the law not destroy it. Matthew 5:17 -18 (17)"Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (He didn't add "except the 4th, that one I've changed to the 1st day of the week." Please excuse my sarcasm. The NT has many scriptures that tell us, although we are not saved by the law, it is there to point to sin so we know why we need a Savior.
I especially agree with your comment of, how when we change the things of God they diminish in value. Changing the day of rest, the seventh day of the week, to Sunday has, as I know you are aware, become NO day of rest for the believer or anyone else. This hurts our witness. We cannot pick and choose the commandments to suit ourselves. The early church honored the Sabbath until about 35AD to 100AD. After that time many "ravening wolves" ( Matthew 7:15) had begun to enter in and by 345AD Emperor Constantine held the Laodicean Council and changed the day of rest to the first day of the week to stop persecution of Jews and Christians for worshipping on the Sabbath. There were many people already practicing rest and worship on the first day so He made it a law to stop the persecution. This is a simple account of the history. If you search Laodicean Council you can learn a lot more about it. Just be careful to backup what you read or hear by scripture. Again, welcome and I hope you will join in with this discussion as it goes along. God Bless :)
Hello Christianlady7 , my thoughts are that the Sabbath of the old testament is a foreshadow of the true Sabbath which will be , the thousand year reign of Christ on earth , during which we , if we have been acceptable to God , will live and reign with Christ and be like unto the angels , helping and teaching humans in the way of truth . We are instructed to meet together to partake of the bread and wine but no specific day is given , we should be worshipping God every day , through our prayers , our reading of the Bible and by taking Jesus as our example and showing the love of God to all we come into contact with every single day . Every day should be a day of worship , without exception , our whole lives , once we know the Truth , should be centered around our Dear Heavenly Father . As He is with us every day without exception , so should we be aware of Him every day and always be trying to do only those things that we know are pleasing to Him . Being a Christian is a daily commitment , not a weekly one .
9. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (The original Greek word for hallowed is "qadash" meaning to set apart or consecrate.)
As you can see, there is nothing here about drinking wine, although you can. But this day was given specifically
for rest, not food and fellowship. But doing it that way is good. To me it is a given for us to worship God and fellowship on our day of rest.
I do whole heartly agree with this that you said: "As He is with us every day without exception , so should we be aware of Him every day and always be trying to do only those things that we know are pleasing to Him ." Being a true Christian means a 100% commitment to our Lord - including obeying ALL his commandments because the 4th is for our physical, mental and spiritual good; to rest every week on the seventh day. The church has somehow abandoned this command of God and seems to think He doesn't care, but how can we justify keeping the other's and discarding this one? Even if the early church did start worshipping on the first day of the week after the crucifixion of Jesus (they didn't) they were also being disobedient to God's commandment and at that time in history would have been severely punished by the Jews because they would have been breaking the sabbath. God Bless:)
God the Spirit sets his Will of God as sovereign and perfect. Significant was that the Son taught us how to pray so we first put ourselves subject to his Will. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven (Matt.6:10). So everything works accordingly. Principle of Similitude sets entire kingdom on this principle.
"On Judgment"
Judgement of the world is predetermined so God sets the years of man in multiples of ten. 120 years are not counted in terms of earth time but according to the eternal word settled in heaven. (Ge.6:3). Noah secured salvation for his family because he built the Ark to God's specification. So the Spirit gives us the day his salvation took effect. "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." (Ge.7:11).
"In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark" (v.13) Now is the day of salvation.
In the end times we have judgment as pre-set from heaven. On command from above we have this," Loose the four angels, which are bound in the great river Euphrates./And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men." (Re.9:14-15)
Comparing passages are to be done on the basis of this principle so how do we settle this verse given here below? "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Pe.3:8). This is to show the ways of man are different from that of God. The Lord will come as a thief as Apostle Peters speaks further down. (v.10)
It's said Lot offered his daughters to the men of Sodum, because thay has not known man, but then it said his daughters had husband, then its back to LOt and his two daughters with him leaving Sodum, and goning unto their father and baring his children so explain thus daughter stuff.
Hi Cheryl1655. What you have asked does seem confusing to most casual readers of the Bible. But there are two possible explanations so as to understand a little better about Lot's daughters.
a. It is possible that Lot had four daughters: two were still living at home with their parents ( Genesis 19:12, when the angels asked Lot if he had any other 'family' besides those they could see there with him; and Genesis 19:15, the angels urged Lot to quickly bring out his wife & his two daughters WHICH ARE HERE, i.e. present in the house with them). So, maybe from these verses we can assume that Lot had four daughters: two virgins living with him & two living with their husbands, & these could have perished with their husbands because of their refusal to leave Sodom.
b. The other possibility is that Lot only had two daughters, but they were not married to their (future) husbands, but were betrothed to them. As you probably know, that in those days & in that culture, when two people were bethrothed (engaged) to each other, they were considered as a married couple, only because of the binding commitment that such an engagement required, & not by actually living & sleeping together. We can remember the account of Joseph & Mary ( Matthew 1:18,19) where Joseph's espousal to Mary was considered as a marriage, though they didn't live together, yet, Joseph was still intending to "put away" (divorce) Mary for her supposed infidelity. But the Angel of the Lord intervened quick smart to stop him acting foolishly.
You can examine these options before you & decide for yourself. My leaning is to the latter, of Job having only two daughters, betrothed to men, but choosing to leave them in preference to what the Angel had warned them concerning God's Wrath over the city.
I will pray for you before I retire to bed tonight. I so can relate to how you are feeling. I pray that your throat will stay clear and stop swelling as that is a serious symptom. Try to drink lots of plain water, maybe with a touch of honey. Ginger tea can be
Gal.3:22-29KJV->24The Law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ,that we might be Justified by Faith.
25But after that faith is come,we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of GOD by faith in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's,then are ye Abraham's seed,and heirs according to the promise.
23 But before faith came,we were kept under the Law,shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin,that the promise by faith of JESUS CHRIST might be given to them that believe.
ROMANS 2:6-12KJV
6 Who WILL RENDER to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,ETERNAL LIFE:
8 But unto them that are contentious,and do not obey the truth,but obey unrighteousness,INDIGNATION AND WRATH,
9 TRIBULATION and ANGUISH,upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the JEW,and also of the GENTILE;
10 But glory,honour,and peace,to every man that worketh good,to the JEW first,and also to the GENTILE:
11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD.
12 For as many as have sinned without Law(the GENTILES)shall also PERISH without Law:and as many as have sinned in the Law(the JEWS)shall be JUDGED by the Law;
By the way,we are now living LITERALLY in the period of SORROWS as my Lord JESUS said- Matthew 24:3-8- but it is a short period of events listed by JESUS, the worst comes soon when the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stands in the holy place( Matthew 24:21-25KJV -> 21 Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time(current time), no, nor ever shall be.
22 EXCEPT those days(current days)be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake these days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there;(as is written in John 5:43-47) BELIEVE IT NOT.
I know I wasn't going to comment any more on the Sabbath, so please forgive me, however, yes the laws of Moses were done away with because the Jews muddied them up so bad with their additions that they were no good anymore, but NOT the 10 Commandments (not laws) of God. These are two very different things. Worship is not in the commandment so worshipping on Sunday doesn't technically apply but to me it is a given to worship God and on the same day He set aside for us to cease all labor and REST. Denying the 4th commandment and by working on that day is disobeying God's COMMANDMENT. When the scriptures say God's commandments are not burdensome He meant it but man messed it up by changing it to Sunday because the world did, so today it is burdensome to worship and rest on Saturday. But man made it so, not God. If we had remembered to keep this commandment as God told us to, the church would not have followed the world and changed it to Sunday and then made excuses, especially by wrong interpretation of the scriptures, to do it their way. Chris and I have had long discussions about this and I know most believers think the Early Church changed it to Sunday but there is no verse that specifically says it was changed. I have provided much historical and scriptural truths to support that the Church did rest 0n the Sabbath from about 35-100AD, so you can find them if you want and see what is there. God Bless :)
Hey Momsage, the truth is, they are all about the "commandments" until it comes to the 4th one. Sure, all the others are applicable, well.. of course, except this 4th one. Truth is, they don't have the spiritual "guts" to obey that one. Too scared they gonna look "funny".. or weird. They would rather throw out a bunch of scriptures out of context to hide behind; Rather than prayerfully try it out of obedience. Spiritual "whimps".. stay away from the "straight" gate.
Hey Rainwalker: Thank you for your reply. I gather from your reply you agree the 4th commandment should be honored. I would like to say its rare to hear from a believe who does. I hope you will be a little more kind in your replies, however, we all love each other on this forum and are friends. God Bless :)
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
GOD bless all on this forum. Happy New Year! The LORD to shine HIS face on all and to gloriously bless all who love and wait for HIS coming.
1 Corinthians 16:2 "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, t
Romans 14:5 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."(Question? Does your church only meet on Sunday to fellowship and hear preaching and teaching? Is Sunday the only day of the week you might hear preaching from the minister? This verse just tells of believers gathering on Sunday to fellowship and listen to Paul preach because he had to leave the next day. It doesn't interpret as abolishing their regular worshiping on the Sabbath.)
Collisians 2:14 & 16 "Blotting out the handwriting of ORDINANCES (my caps) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross; Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or the new moon or of the sabbath days." (This judgment is speaking of situations on the sabbath as when David fed his men shewbread that was only to be eaten by the Jewish Priests on the Sabbath. 1 Samuel 21:1-6, Christ feeding His disciples from the cornfield on a Sabbath. Matthew 1:21 and pulling an ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath. Luke 14:5; if there are things that needed to be done out of necessity on the Sabbath, you should not let men judge you for doing that.)
I don't know how any of the verses I noted can be interpreted as showing that the early church willingly changed it's weekly worship and fellowship from the sabbath to the first day of the week. As I presented, there is historical proof that they didn't. As the "ravening wolves in sheep clothing" ( Matthew 7:15) began to creep into the church, a change was eventually made to abolish the sabbath and worship and refrain form labor on Sunday. Constantine and the Catholic Church mainly changed it and the world followed.
Not wanting to get into the topic of whether or not believers are sinners, since I have never met one believer that has not sinned in some way as a believer. In this way, I did speak that I was a sinner because of what Jema had said about the speech towards you during this thread with you. I was concerned that maybe I had sinned against you in the way she mentioned and repent, apologizing to you and to the members on this site. So, if she can show me any words that Giannis or I used that fit the definition of invective, aggressive, or bullying, I would want to know.
As to our conversation here, it is fine to use strong words to make one's point, especially if one's view is a matter of importance to a person. We do not need to be wishy-washy in order to appease others. We should speak honestly, using as precise of words as we can to explain ourselves in written form. That is not easy for everyone to do. Some people are better at writing out their views than others. Our prowess at writing is not what is important, but using the opportunity afforded in this forum to enter into dialogue with others in order to understand one another as well as relate what each of use knows, perceives, and/or feels led to share.
I appreciate your firmness in your view. I appreciate that you are straight-forward. I appreciate that your love for others shows through in your posts. I appreciate you as a sister in Christ. It is good to have a friend like you on this forum. We do not need to agree on every topic, but we both have the Holy Spirit within us to lead us into harmonious fellowship, knowledge of our Lord, Jesus, and the truths of the Scriptures inspired by our great God who has deemed it best to save us.
Greetings in Christ JESUS
You have just said in prior post that you have never met one believer that has not sinned in some way as a believer. Here's the great problem of those which justifies themselves as keepers of the Sabbath day according to the letter of the Law, for as said James in his universal epistle- James 2:10- , "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all". What more does the Word of GOD say? Romans 2:12 ->... as many as have sinned in the Law shall be Judged by the Law, therefore, he who sins in the Law becomes guilty of all, then by the Law he will be condemned for sure. Galatians 3:11 - ...no man is justified by the Law in the sight of GOD it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Galatians 5:4 - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; ye are fallen from grace.(are wretchad)
Galatians 3:8-10
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that GOD would justify the Gentiles through faith(not by the Law), preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the Law to do them.
Romans 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the Law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Hebrews 4:
12 For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom WE MUST RENDER AN ACCOUNT.
This question leads us into another discussion. One that was recently addressed on this forum. I do not wish to revisit this topic of how one is born again, yet still able to sin, thus is a sinner, though covered by the righteousness of Christ.
I can understand how you may have felt overwhelmed.
Just a note: the quote from the epistle of Barnabas is not a false Scripture. It is like the epistle of Clement, who was bishop in Rome soon after Paul died there. A epistle is a simply a letter. We ascribe God-inspiration to the letters of Paul but not to Clement or Barnabas. This is because Paul's letters were widely distributed and accepted as being inspired by God. The letters of Clement and Barnabas (and other bishops and church leaders) were to churches or other Christians and also distributed but not as widely as those of Paul, John., Peter, James, and Jude. So that is why they are not included in the canon of Scripture.
This does not mean that they are not honest letters that describe the Christian experience of that time, though. These writers, like Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Polycarp, Ignatius (both of Antioch) were devout Christians, some of whom were martyred for not renouncing their faith in Jesus.
So please do not be fearful of reading what they say. There writings are preserved for us for a reason. But there are those who wrote letters that were frauds and heretics. So, caution is always warranted and we should always check one's writings against the teachings of Scriptures and also read up on the authors to see if their writings were considered heretical or not.
That is all for now. I hope you have a very blessed day today and gain much peace and wisdom from your study of the Word of God.
I sense that there is a reason for holding to a belief, that these letters by certain eminent men should be treated as spurious. When we have the Deuterocanonical (or, Apocrypha) books that are largely accepted by certain churches (including the RCC), we can easily include the writings of Clement, Polycarp, Eusebius, et al as also falling into that category. And many of these men, especially Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle John, were very much involved in the work & growth of the early Church, so their writings have always been a great help to us many centuries later to understand how the Church believed & functioned. Once we can separate these writings (not all the contents of which we might agree with), from the questionable Apocrypha (written many centuries later before & after Christ), we can begin to get to the source of matters such as Sabbath-keeping, etc. But it comes down to the thorny point: what do I want to believe or will support my belief, rather than let the Word speak - and this is something that I constantly assess within myself, lest I too fall into that trap. Hope your discussions with Momsage continue to be engaging & enlightening.
It is always good to hear from you.
I've been reading this afternoon on this topic of non-canonical books. But it is certainly not necesary to do so.
As you said, it is good to find out how the church in the earliest times understood doctrines and practices passed down to the leaders from the apostles.
Perhaps you have misunderstood my point concerning the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The letter int he caser of the Decalogue is very specific but the spirt of the law encompasses so much more than just the acts spoken of in the Decalogue.
We are to be morally sound in our lives, not just in our outward acts, but inwardly, being transformed by the Holy Spirit to will and do what the Father wants us to do.
My post was not meant to be dismissive concerning moral actions. We are not to kill, commit adultery, etc. according to the Decalogue, but in the teachings of Jesus (Sermon on the Mount) and Paul's words concerning the law, we are to go deeper into what the Lord requires of us-not just outward obedience as the Pharisees did, but inwardly, with pureness of heart and true desire to live godly lives in the evil world we live in daily.
1. The 10 commandments were commands written by God and were for all of mankind to obey until the end. 2. In the 4th COMMANDMENT God only COMMANDED that we "REST" on the seventh day of the week for our physical, mental and spiritual well being. If believers worship and fellowship together on Sunday there is no "sin" or wrong doing in this and if I put forward the idea that I was saying this I apologize. It just seems sensible to do it on the seventh day during our rest. 3. The 10 Commandments are NOT LAWS. All the laws and statues and ordinances that were given to Moses by God were based on these 10 commands of God. The sacrificial rituals were abolished by the beautiful sacrifice of Jesus so they were no more needed but we, as believers, know in our hearts to obey His COMMANDS. Actually, all souls know to obey them because they are a part of the human conscience. Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5: 17-18 We cannot pick and choose what commandments to obey. God intended for them all to be obeyed. 4. In the scriptures, from the KJB, I have given a different understanding of the verses that others claim say that the Early Church started worshipping on the first day of the week after Christ died, understandings which are completely possible within the scriptures and some that showed that the early church continued to honor the Sabbath until "ravening wolves" entered in as Paul warned they would. 5. Following the Commands of God/living under the blood of Jesus as a believer are not 2 separate things. They are all part of being a true believer, but, if others don't do it that way, it is not wrong for them until they are convicted of it and then don't obey. God Bless :)
Thanks for getting back to me. May have a very peaceful and blessed day today!
You mentioned, "we change things from Elohim's original intent or design...". In general, yes we have a tendency to do that, sometimes wilfully to suit our inclinations & desires, & other times, because we try to make them fit into a society & norms in which we live. So my questions: what then was Yahweh's original intent & design for the giving of the Law (the Ten Commandments)? To whom was it given? What was its purpose? And did it have an expiry date? Was there any Law instituted subsequent to it? As you no doubt have read through the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) & the apostolic teaching in the New Testament concerning these matters (especially in Romans, Galatians, & Hebrews), you will learn the answers.
Now why do some Christians hold onto the Ten Commandments as if they still applied to them, I cannot tell for sure; except that maybe they haven't thought through the questions I've shared here & even if they have, it might come down to, 'well it is in the Bible & it is given from the Mouth of God, so we must accept them & apply them even for today'. This answer sounds good, but in all things pertaining to the Bible, we need to be asking ourselves questions about the passages, doctrines, or teachings we read about, so that we not only know the Mind of God & His Purposes in them, but also if and how to apply them to us as His Church today. Blessings.
I especially agree with your comment of, how when we change the things of God they diminish in value. Changing the day of rest, the seventh day of the week, to Sunday has, as I know you are aware, become NO day of rest for the believer or anyone else. This hurts our witness. We cannot pick and choose the commandments to suit ourselves. The early church honored the Sabbath until about 35AD to 100AD. After that time many "ravening wolves" ( Matthew 7:15) had begun to enter in and by 345AD Emperor Constantine held the Laodicean Council and changed the day of rest to the first day of the week to stop persecution of Jews and Christians for worshipping on the Sabbath. There were many people already practicing rest and worship on the first day so He made it a law to stop the persecution. This is a simple account of the history. If you search Laodicean Council you can learn a lot more about it. Just be careful to backup what you read or hear by scripture. Again, welcome and I hope you will join in with this discussion as it goes along. God Bless :)
8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (The original Greek word for hallowed is "qadash" meaning to set apart or consecrate.)
As you can see, there is nothing here about drinking wine, although you can. But this day was given specifically
for rest, not food and fellowship. But doing it that way is good. To me it is a given for us to worship God and fellowship on our day of rest.
I do whole heartly agree with this that you said: "As He is with us every day without exception , so should we be aware of Him every day and always be trying to do only those things that we know are pleasing to Him ." Being a true Christian means a 100% commitment to our Lord - including obeying ALL his commandments because the 4th is for our physical, mental and spiritual good; to rest every week on the seventh day. The church has somehow abandoned this command of God and seems to think He doesn't care, but how can we justify keeping the other's and discarding this one? Even if the early church did start worshipping on the first day of the week after the crucifixion of Jesus (they didn't) they were also being disobedient to God's commandment and at that time in history would have been severely punished by the Jews because they would have been breaking the sabbath. God Bless:)
God the Spirit sets his Will of God as sovereign and perfect. Significant was that the Son taught us how to pray so we first put ourselves subject to his Will. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven (Matt.6:10). So everything works accordingly. Principle of Similitude sets entire kingdom on this principle.
"On Judgment"
Judgement of the world is predetermined so God sets the years of man in multiples of ten. 120 years are not counted in terms of earth time but according to the eternal word settled in heaven. (Ge.6:3). Noah secured salvation for his family because he built the Ark to God's specification. So the Spirit gives us the day his salvation took effect. "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." (Ge.7:11).
"In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark" (v.13) Now is the day of salvation.
In the end times we have judgment as pre-set from heaven. On command from above we have this," Loose the four angels, which are bound in the great river Euphrates./And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men." (Re.9:14-15)
Comparing passages are to be done on the basis of this principle so how do we settle this verse given here below? "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Pe.3:8). This is to show the ways of man are different from that of God. The Lord will come as a thief as Apostle Peters speaks further down. (v.10)
a. It is possible that Lot had four daughters: two were still living at home with their parents ( Genesis 19:12, when the angels asked Lot if he had any other 'family' besides those they could see there with him; and Genesis 19:15, the angels urged Lot to quickly bring out his wife & his two daughters WHICH ARE HERE, i.e. present in the house with them). So, maybe from these verses we can assume that Lot had four daughters: two virgins living with him & two living with their husbands, & these could have perished with their husbands because of their refusal to leave Sodom.
b. The other possibility is that Lot only had two daughters, but they were not married to their (future) husbands, but were betrothed to them. As you probably know, that in those days & in that culture, when two people were bethrothed (engaged) to each other, they were considered as a married couple, only because of the binding commitment that such an engagement required, & not by actually living & sleeping together. We can remember the account of Joseph & Mary ( Matthew 1:18,19) where Joseph's espousal to Mary was considered as a marriage, though they didn't live together, yet, Joseph was still intending to "put away" (divorce) Mary for her supposed infidelity. But the Angel of the Lord intervened quick smart to stop him acting foolishly.
You can examine these options before you & decide for yourself. My leaning is to the latter, of Job having only two daughters, betrothed to men, but choosing to leave them in preference to what the Angel had warned them concerning God's Wrath over the city.
soothing.
25But after that faith is come,we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of GOD by faith in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's,then are ye Abraham's seed,and heirs according to the promise.
23 But before faith came,we were kept under the Law,shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin,that the promise by faith of JESUS CHRIST might be given to them that believe.
ROMANS 2:6-12KJV
6 Who WILL RENDER to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,ETERNAL LIFE:
8 But unto them that are contentious,and do not obey the truth,but obey unrighteousness,INDIGNATION AND WRATH,
9 TRIBULATION and ANGUISH,upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the JEW,and also of the GENTILE;
10 But glory,honour,and peace,to every man that worketh good,to the JEW first,and also to the GENTILE:
11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD.
12 For as many as have sinned without Law(the GENTILES)shall also PERISH without Law:and as many as have sinned in the Law(the JEWS)shall be JUDGED by the Law;
By the way,we are now living LITERALLY in the period of SORROWS as my Lord JESUS said- Matthew 24:3-8- but it is a short period of events listed by JESUS, the worst comes soon when the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stands in the holy place( Matthew 24:21-25KJV -> 21 Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time(current time), no, nor ever shall be.
22 EXCEPT those days(current days)be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake these days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there;(as is written in John 5:43-47) BELIEVE IT NOT.
25 Behold,I have told you before.
Get ready
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
GOD bless all on this forum. Happy New Year! The LORD to shine HIS face on all and to gloriously bless all who love and wait for HIS coming.
January 1, 2024.
1 Corinthians 16:2 "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, t
Romans 14:5 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."(Question? Does your church only meet on Sunday to fellowship and hear preaching and teaching? Is Sunday the only day of the week you might hear preaching from the minister? This verse just tells of believers gathering on Sunday to fellowship and listen to Paul preach because he had to leave the next day. It doesn't interpret as abolishing their regular worshiping on the Sabbath.)
Collisians 2:14 & 16 "Blotting out the handwriting of ORDINANCES (my caps) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross; Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or the new moon or of the sabbath days." (This judgment is speaking of situations on the sabbath as when David fed his men shewbread that was only to be eaten by the Jewish Priests on the Sabbath. 1 Samuel 21:1-6, Christ feeding His disciples from the cornfield on a Sabbath. Matthew 1:21 and pulling an ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath. Luke 14:5; if there are things that needed to be done out of necessity on the Sabbath, you should not let men judge you for doing that.)
I don't know how any of the verses I noted can be interpreted as showing that the early church willingly changed it's weekly worship and fellowship from the sabbath to the first day of the week. As I presented, there is historical proof that they didn't. As the "ravening wolves in sheep clothing" ( Matthew 7:15) began to creep into the church, a change was eventually made to abolish the sabbath and worship and refrain form labor on Sunday. Constantine and the Catholic Church mainly changed it and the world followed.
God Bless :)