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  • Momsage - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Hi Jema. I have to say I honestly don't understand your reasoning. If the 10 commandments were only for the Jews, then why do Gentiles obey 9 of them even today? You say to love God and others "hang on all the laws and prophets (which is true) then you negate that by saying they were only for the Jews?? Also, you and others in thus discussion keep calling the Commandments of God laws. They are not laws, those were the statues, ordinances and laws God gave to Moses to expand on the Commandments for the Jews to fully understand. If these Commandment and what He gave Moses weren't for the Gentils of the OT then what justification did God have to punish the heathen Gentils? He had justification because there were always men who believed and lived Godly lives from the time of Adam to tell them and show them. After the Commandments and laws were given they knew even more of God and who He was. Christ became the one and only needed sacrificial Lamb for our salvation, so, of course, sacrificial laws were done away with but, obviously, the 10 Comandments weren't. If you don't believe the 2 new Commandments that Jesus gave us don't teach us the same as the 10 Commandments then please give me a scriptural reason why and explain why we still obey them today. The reason the Commandments weren't laws is because laws can be rewritten, added to or abolished but the Commandments were written by God with His own hand and they can't be treated as laws unless mankind disobediently tries to unsuccessfully. My point about this whole discussion with everyone is God commands us to take a good, relaxing rest one day a week. It is a wonderful command. Way do believers not want to obey it? You can if you trust God to make the way.

    What do you think, in the light of the scripture, is going to happen to Israel and the Jews?

    God Bless :)
  • Jema - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Dear Momsage , as I've said before , I admire your passion for this subject but , may I suggest that you may have neglected other parts of the Bible in your zeal for this one subject ? Amos Ch 3 V 1+2 . The Bible is a whole and scripture supports and illuminates scripture . I have never said that anyone should ignore any of the ten commandments . Have you read the book of Galatians ? Ch 3 is especially helpful in this subject . I'm not much of a person to get into big debates , but there are plenty on here who enjoy that sort of thing , maybe you should direct your posts to them . Much love to you in Christ .
  • Momsage - In Reply - 2 months ago
    I am sorry Jema, I didn't mean to bombard you, I was just answering you.

    Two short replies I believe I need to tell you and I won't expect a reply.

    The Commandments were not LAWS. They were commands written by God not to be disobeyed. If they are the laws you say that we are no longer expected to obey them then why do we? None of you have ever answered that question.

    MERRIAN-WEBSTER DICTIONARY

    Bewitched:

    controlled or affected by or as if by a magic spell

    influenced, attracted, or charmed as if by magic

    The only criteria you have for saying I am bewitched is just because I believe the 4th commandment needs to be obeyed and believers should take one day of rest from their labors each week. Your implication that I am bewitched seems kind of harsh and unloving but maybe I've misunderstood your meaning. Anyway, I will end this discussion on the subject of the Sabbath and if I reply to any of your other discussions on this forum, I'll be sure to keep it short. I do understand where you are coming from, my daughter is the same way. God Bless :)
  • Jema - In Reply - 2 months ago
    In V 26-28 of Galatians Ch 3 , it says that the Galatians are : the children of God by faith in Christ , one in Christ and Abraham's seed according to the promise , yet you chose to pick out bewitched and infer that I was calling you bewitched , which I was not .
  • Momsage - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Jema: if you look back at your reply you will see that you only referenced Gal. 3, not any verses, which is why I responded to verse 1 as I did and I said there was a possibility I had misunderstood which I did. I have decided to not discuss the Sabbath anymore as you may know. I love you dearly as a sister in the Lord and I hope this terrible misunderstanding will be forgotten and we can continue to communicate with each other in the love of Christ. Have a blessed day. :)
  • Jema - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Thanks so much for your replies to me , I have enjoyed reading them and appreciate your time and energy . One thing I would say is that not all the Jews rejected Jesus , the common people heard him gladly and the first Christians were of course , Jewish people . Thanks again , I always enjoy your posts .
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Good Morning Jema,

    It is good for you to be encouraging to Momsage.

    I do not think Giannis, myself, or anyone else on this forum was being aggressive to Momsage nor where we trying to promote our selves, our scholarship, or our superiority. If that is what you get from our postings, I must say that you are reading more into what has been presented than what we said or meant. Also, speaking for myself, I like you, considering you a wonderful sister in Christ that God has blessed me with. I am sure others here think the same. So be assured that you are loved and cherished on this forum.

    As for me, I try to read almost all of what is posted on this forum because I respect everyone's ideas, that they took the time to post, and that they are brethren. I read most posts because I can learn from others, be made to ponder a topic and then explore it more deeply myself, add my view to the discussion. I can answer a question and I can know prayer requests so I can have the privilege to pray for the need expressed. Yet, each person is free to decide how they participate on this forum and I respect that as well.

    So, may you have peace today. May you be encouraged and know that you are appreciated here and loved for who you are in Christ as we all should be. It saddens me to know that you think that some of us do not like you. I hope that God will assure you of your love and acceptance here, especially by those of us who post here. Have a blessed day.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Hello Jema

    I understand your point to Momsage. We all have the tendency to defend people who may seem weak to our eyes (in knowledge or anything else) and get bullyied by others. But here this is not a case of bullying. It is a matter of truth. It is not adequate for one to sit home and read their Bible, God doesn't work like that. That is why He gave the ministries to the church ( Ephesians 4:11), one of them is the teacher, also the Pastor. If we could just stay away from a congregation and read our Bibles and learn everything, God wouldn't give those ministries. But God's work is mainly within the church, not outside it, and we need teachers and people who know a bit more than we do, even history.

    I don't claim I am a teacher, I am not. But some things I know, as well as other brothers and sisters, may help somebody to see clearer, or even me. So we put forward what we know, and if the other person has something to say, let them say it. We don't reject somebody's believes without hearing them first. If I have nothing to say to defend my position then this becomes obvious to others. If I don't know much I must either be ready to learn from others otherwise why do I get into a discussion? Is all that wrong? Sorry you are bothered, it is true that sometimes we may seem aggresive but our aim is not to insult the other person but to show what we know it is true. GBU
  • Jema - In Reply - 2 months ago
    May I also say that , when a group of people gang up on a person who they perceive ( rightly or wrongly ) to be weaker than them , that is the very definition of bullying .
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Dear Jema,

    You are conflating your perception of what you think is our view of Momsage with what we think. We do not think of her as weaker nor do are any of us intending to "pile on" her. This is not bullying. It is discussing with differing viewpoints. Others who think like Momsage are welcome to join our discussion. We are not singling her out in any way as a bully does, nor are we intentionally targeting her for mistreatment here. That has not occurred.

    I can see you are very sensitive to people on this forum who seem weak or the underdog in a discussion in your eyes. I appreciate your compassion. But to call any of us bullies, aggressive, or invective in our posts to her is simply name-calling. You are assuming to know our motives and assume that we are attempting to bully or belittle her. We are definitely not intending this at all. So, please, let's be gracious to one another even as we discuss topics amongst one another. Our aim is to uplift, give thoughts to consider, and to express ideas that someone's original post prompts us to respond to.
  • Jema - In Reply - 2 months ago
    I understand your point totally . I believe that we Christians should cherish and nourish each other , we can't do that if we have pushed someone away by using invective and aggressive (by your own admission ) language . We should never belittle each other or make each other feel inferior , either deliberately or accidentally . Some times people disappear from this site without any good bye , do we ever wonder why ? Do we ever consider that we , and I include myself , may have pushed some one away ? We will all have to answer to our Lord for the way we speak to each other , that's a very scary thought to me , I think it should be so to all of us .
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Jema,

    Thank you for getting back to me. If you were truly only speaking to Giannis in your post about language that is invective, aggressive, or bullying, then I am sorry I chimed in. If you were speaking generally to all on this site, then it is appropriate for me to address the words you used to identify the character of speech used in this discussion with Momsage or other discourse.

    I was concerned that perhaps I had said something that you thought was like these three words you mentioned and so I wanted to share the definition here so that if I had spoken wrongly, you could tell me what wording I used that would qualify such characterization according to the definitions I found for the words invective, aggressive, and bullying.

    Like you, I do not want any of us to speak this way. And, like you, I think of this forum as a fellowship in which we should speak to each other as we would if in person and discussing a biblical topic with differing viewpoints.

    Jema, you do not need to respond back to me if you do not wish to do so. I understand. I just wanted you to know that I thought you were speaking about the wording Giannis and I were using in discoursing with Momsage and would want to know what I may have said that was offensive to her or to you. Be at peace with me here today. we are sisters. It would be good if we take the time now and then to complement one another and encourage each other with our words. We can express our love and genuine care for each other more than we may have in the past. My hope is that we build bridges towards one another, and continue to pray for one another often, as I do for you. We can tell each other how what one of use has said has uplifted us, helped us, and made us grow closer to the Lord.

    All of us here are journeying towards the same goal, same heavenly country (as Abraham), to the same inheritance of the saints, to the same eternal bliss with God, to the most awesome, inspiring, beautiful, satisfying, unsurpassed life
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Hi Jema

    Although I have been agressive to some people on this site in the past (and I have repented about it) I don't think I have been either agressive to Momsage or used words that insult, neither me nor any other person in that discussion about Sabbath. About singling her out how can that be? We don't know each other here on this site neither we have the same beliefs in every topic. When we list all we know about a topic is for making our beliefs solid, not to diminish the other person. Now to what was discussed. Momsage anchored herself to what she has read somewhere and I listed all historical events that I know to make her think that she may have the wrong impression about things she learned. Anyway, does all that mean that when I want to talk about something with others I should not say all that I know because that other person may feel inferior? Is this what you say? Is this right? Personally when someone talks about things that I don't know, such as history, I am very careful about what is said and then I look it up on the net. There is so much information nowadays on there from all sort of sources and it is good not to single out any church or denomination. But as far as the church history is concerned there is a wide acceptance all over the world about specific events in the history of the early church and when we hear something that sounds a bit strange in our ears then that makes us want to wake up that other person. There are some teachers or churches that in order to promote their ideas they twist some things on purpose, and I firmly believe that Momsage has fallen to that trap, because what she says that they say is not the accepted history of the church. We should be very careful in general when we hear something that is in total contrast to what all the others believe. Is is only us or some other specific teachers that God has revealed His truth? Why? Are we something special? Anyway, I think this is enough. Have a blessed day.GBU
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Have a good evening, Momsage. We can talk more tomorrow on a different topic. I am sort of done with this one.
  • Momsage - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Hi GiGi:

    I am also done with this subject. It was getting a little to heavy. It seemed to me we were all getting a little frustrated and so I ended the discussions with me. Everything is good with all of us. I know the ones I have been discussing the Sabbath with are my brothers and sisters in the Lord and that we will be going on in love and respect.

    Hope all is well with you. God Bless :)
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Hello Momsage,

    I understand that some people get frustrated or offended or worked up over some of the back and forth of discussing matters on here. I do not get this way at all rom discussing matters here. For me, I just do not like it when people make accusations, assumptions, and judgements about the character, motivations, spiritual maturity, or relationship with God in posting to me or others. If a discussion is such that people are sticking to the topic without doing these things then I am fine to go in depth and at length on a topic until it seems that there is an impasse and then it may be time to bow out or bring a peaceful end to a discussion. I am so glad you have remained here with us. We have so much to talk about with each other because God has blessed us so in myriads of ways. I've been pretty busy that past few days. Have a good evening.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Dear Momsage,

    I know that you are looking for sources from me and others who are discussing the topic of the Sabbath commandment. I cannot yet give you sources. Giannis is the one who quoted Barnabas, so perhaps he knows more on this. I can (and you can) search online to find out more about the Barnabas quote or any others mentioned in Giannis' post.

    On my part, I really am feeling that I am to only be involved in this discussion if the Spirit directs me to, so I'm being prayerful concerning this thread.

    Blessings to you in every way.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Hello again, I re-read my post to you. My statements are a summing up of what I have learned about church history on this topic. i do not have quotes for you.

    Quotes are good in some ways, and I appreciate the ones you have supplied, but the quotes of a few people may or may not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the majority, nor be the "official" teaching of a sect.

    My suggestion to you is to go to sites that cover the history of the early church times between AD 35 and 150 AD to find out more about how the church functioned and what a variety of church leaders have said on certain topics. This can give you the comprehensive information you desire to consider.

    I do not expect anyone to just simply take my word for anything, but hope that anyone who is truly serious about finding out about a topic, especially one that is well documented in the early church, that person should do their own study so they can learn for themselves,
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Momsage, 2/2

    Ignatius of Antioch, chapter 9

    If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death - whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master - how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead. Matthew 27:52

    Teachings of the 12 Apostles, 14:1

    "But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."

    Those were not Catholics, they were Greeks actually not Latins. At the time the church had not been separated into different fractions. The first split of that united church occured in 1054 AD, and the Roman Catholic church emmerged as a separate church.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Hello GiGi

    It is true that the church who was established by Jesus on Pentecost, along the centuries slowly but steadily departed from their initial faith and doctrines. Both the R Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church became secular churches whose function does not result in leading people to Christ and save them from distruction, although there is a small fraction in both churches who love Jesus and strive to live according to the Bible, although they follow some wrong traditions and practises. I think the Orthodox church stands closer to the truth than the R/Catholics but still...

    But just because those churches are now away from the truth, that doesn't mean that they were always like that. And we cannot definitely reject all the early christians and their writtings especially those who lived at the same time or shortly after the apostles. Their writtings can shed light on the practises and beliefs of that ancient church. Sunday/Lord's Day was very soon separated as a the main day of them meeting to pray and teach and have holy communion, it is very obvious in their writtings. In addition their writtings are not in any contrast with the Bible. In the Book of Acts it is very evident that the apostles tought people not to follow the Old Testament's ordinances including Sabbath. The Jews who became christians did actually keep the Sabbath as well as all the Mosaic Law but that was not right and was only tolerated by the apostles in Jerusalem. Paul was not in agreement to that tolerance and tought the Jews who were spread among the nations that the Law was abolished and there was not any need to keep any of those ordinances as they were in contrast with our Lord's grace. I hope that bothers who still keep the Sabbath may sometime realize that the do something which is not right It is good to stand as close to the truth as possible. GBU
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Hi Giannis,

    I read your reply to me again and I just would like to clarify a few things. It is true that secularism has been taken into churches of every denomination. Yet, this does not mean that they are now TOTALLY secular. The Scriptures are still read at services and God is still important to the life of the congregation for the most part. Prayer is still encouraged for those in need. And help for the poor and needy is still promoted.

    We can commend churches who continue to do these things as well as adhering to doctrines that are biblically sound. And we can speak against teachings and practices that are worldly, secular, and in error as pertains to biblical teachings and doctrines that depart from the doctrines of the apostles or are added such as the doctrines concerning Mary or the prosperity doctrine or the "little gods" doctrine, or universalism, or other doctrines that have become popularly accepted over the centuries in both the Catholic church and Protestant sects. We are all to watch our life and doctrine carefully, as Paul instructs and to check ourselves to see that we are truly of the apostolic faith passed down to the church of Jesus our Lord.

    I pray that His church will come to the unity of faith based on the inspired word of God and through the knitting of us together in love and common doctrine by the Holy Spirit.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Hello GiGi

    You are absolutely right. Also it is prefferable to have those churches than nothing. In Europe in countries where those churches play a significant role in the society, usually Southen/Eastern Europe, people are closer to God and His commandments than the North where people are almost completely atheists and this is obvious from the no. of divorces, rate of crime, etc. But I wish they could just open their eyes and see and follow the truth. How a great salvation it could be done. In my country more than 95% of people have been baptized as Orthodox christians when they were infants. They often attend the church liturgies, take part in celebtations, festivals, fastings, everything...but their everyday life doesn't show Christ. If that church could see the truth and preach it, my God what a great salvation would result, I believe thousand and millions of people would have been saved. Another thing is that we must honor those churches, apart from condemning them all the time. This may sound strange but let us not forget that Christianity was spread throughout the world mainly by those 2 churches, the Catholics in the West and the Orthodoxes in the East. If those didn't exist, probably we wouldn't have learned anything about Christ. As we owe honor to Israel because they kept the faith to the real God for so many millenia so that the church found it at the end, the same way we owe honor to those churches because they kept the faith for so many centuaries untill we found it. This is justice. But we also have to talk to them about their errors. We really can not do much, but God is powerful to change that all completely. I believe that as we are approaching the end and the sin in the world is becoming biger and biger, the stonger our God's power will be revealed to the world. We can talk to everybody about our faith but if God doesn't show His strength not much will be done. So our prayes here is to see God powerful again, as the ancient times. ( Joel 2:23)

    GBU
  • GiGi - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Agreed, Giannis,

    No matter what church group we affiliate with there is always the possibility of wrong teaching and practice to creep in and be widely accepted. I have seen it happen many times in my lifetime in many different church groups.

    The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Church became more and more institutionalized and hierarchical over the years and this did not prevent them from falling into error and corruption. ALL church groups can learn a lesson from what happened to the universal church over the centuries and be very careful about what they teach from the pulpit, what is taught in Sunday School, in home Bible Studies, and in personal study and practicing one's faith daily.

    You have done well in this conversation with Momsage. It is up to her to do with the information she found and we supplied according to how the Spirit leads her.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Momsage, the Ignatius of Antioch writting is from his First Apology
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Hello Momsage 1/2

    Barnabas 15:9

    "Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended into the heavens." (The eight day is the day after the last/seventh day of the Jewish Sabbath, that is Sunday or Lord's Day as the early christians used to call it)

    Justin the Martyr, chapter 67

    "And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen;.... But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
  • Momsage - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Where did Barnabas 15:9 come from? Not the KJB?

    A post from GiGi: "Thank you for offering us these quotes from these believing leaders in the time when apostle John was still alive (before 95AD. and/or in the decades shortly after he died. Many of the writers of the 100's AD were appointed to their offices by the apostles or by one who was appointed by an apostle. They were men of faith in our Lord."

    If this is biblical or a historical please give me references. Also, please tell me, with historical proof, why this quote is not authentic. "It was the Holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest form Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodician, AD 364, anathematized (cursed) those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema (excommunication.)" Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSRR, Kansas city, Mo

    God Bless :)
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Momsage, 3/3

    In 1 Cor 16 Paul asks Corinthians to gather money for Corinthians every Sunday, "2.Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

    Why on Sundays when they could all meet on Saturdays (assuming they celebrated Sabbaths)? If Sunday was a congregation day why did they postpone the offerings untill the next day, and if Sunday was not a congregation day for them why bother coming again to the church to do that?

    From the practise of my church. We meet twice during the week and on Sundays (some churches in big cities meet every day). During the week not everybody comes to the church, people are busy with their jobs, kids, all sort of things or are very tired to go to the church. But on Sundays everybody comes because they are free and also want to take part in the breaking of the Bread, etc. So it is Sundays that we offer money for the the needs of the church, so that we can get the most of it. So if one wants to get the most of it they would gather money on Sundays, not say Wednesdays It is obvious, isn't it? So the main service of the church was done on Sundays when apart from taking part in the breaking of the bread, they offered money for the function of the church or the poor, etc, thus Sunday was the most important day for them, not Saturday.

    Sometime later on I will go on with what Paul says about Sabbaths.

    GBU
  • Chris - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Thank you brother Giannis for sharing more information of the practises of the early Church - all this should be very helpful to those seeking better understanding of what took place in those meetings. And just to add, I've never found any of your posts to be aggressive or hurtful in any way, and have always valued very much your understanding of the Word especially when bringing us added knowledge from the Greek. And of course, calling upon history, if outside of biblical revelation, can always be a sore point; one must investigate further the facts presented rather than blind rejection, for whatever our reason. Truth is paramount: if we believe that the Bible is wholly true (even under testing), then anything that would complement biblical facts must also be given equal scrutiny. Blessings.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Thanks for your good words brother Chris. Have a blessed week.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 2 months ago
    Momsage, 2/3

    Lets talk from the scriptures.

    1. Acts 20:7, "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

    Isn't obvious here that the Breaking of bread was done during Sunday? Why does the text mention the breaking of bread? Answer, because at that time the breaking of bread was not done during the church service in the morning, but christians sat on tables in the evening and had it then, exactly the way Jesus did it with His disciples before He was crucified. (also see 1 Cor 11:20-32 where Paul talks about Lord's supper which was done on Lord's day/Sunday. If you look this up in history books those suppers were called "agapae" [grk for love, plural] and that habit was eventually abandoned sometime during the 2nd century) So we can understand how Paul kept teaching until midnight, otherwise one may wonder how true can be that Paul preached from morning to midnight. But from that little detail we know now that the breaking of bread was done on Sundays. We also find out that the breaking of bread was done every Sunday, not once every 2-3 months or whenever some planned it, like in some churches (If it was done once in a while the text would say "on one of the first days or a first day, in greek this is more clear than the Engl translation)

    Now if Sabbath was still the main congregation day and holiday, would the christians perform the most important act of the church function on another day? I wouldn't think so.


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