I have a question for all fellow christians who do not consider that Jesus is God.(hello Ronald, I saw your comment and I was reminded of something I was thinking lately.)
Let me do an introduction before going to my point. When we talk with people from the Orthodox church who often pray to saints or to Mary Jesus' mother, we ask them how is it possible that they hear you all, millions and millions of you, they are not Gods after all. So many millions of people pray to Mary, how is she able to hear them all and, as they claim, she often responds. She is not God, only God can do that.
So I come to what I want to say. Somewhere in NT, Jesus says that when two or more are gathered in His name then He is there among them. How is that possible if Jesus is not God. Because at the same time I believe thousands of congregations take place in the whole world. To do such a thing one must have divine properties. He also said somewhere that when we ask something in His name then He will do that. How can He hear millions of prayers simultaneously if He is not God.
Brother Giannis. I note that your question is directed to those holding a non-trinitarian position, but thought to clarify that these folk would willingly accept that at the miraculous birth of Jesus, His impeccable & sinless life, & His Father's acceptance of Him & ascension to His right Hand, Jesus gained a complete Divine character & position with the Father. Therefore, regarding Jesus' Presence & Ministry among us by His Spirit denotes His present divinity, assuming all of God's Nature within Him. And this understanding I feel can be accepted by all of us: that of Christ being Divine & sending forth His Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of God to accomplish His Will.
So the claim to Christ's Divinity is not an issue after His Birth, Life & Ministry, rather, the issue is even before His Birth to lay down His Life. I consider John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down HIS life for his friends" and 1 John 3:16, "Hereby perceive we the love (of God), because he laid down HIS life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." (Noting, that "of God" is in italics, thus not in the original). And from these verses, I ask, 'are we seeing simply Christ's Love for all that caused Him to lay down His Life in sacrifice, or are we also seeing God's Love for all in bringing forth a Son for the purpose of providing the one & only Sacrifice?'
It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation.
"It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation."
Very good point here Brother Christ.
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 20:28.
This love was displayed to us while we were yet sinners.
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
I will keep it short since we have had those discussions before and we know what each one of us believe.
I noticed that you believe that when a human person receives the fullness of the Spirit somehow they aquire divine characteristics as if though they are Gods themselves. ie omnipresence, speak all languages, hear millions of people simultaneously. Well there are some churches that actually believe that we will become sort of Gods. The Ortodox church is one of those.
Also Jema (why is she gone? I actually liked very much her encouraging comments,I will miss them) in her reply to me said that we will become something sort of Gods when we will be dressed up with our spiritual body.
Although there isn't any revelation from God about the state we will be in Heaven, I still find it very hard to believe that. If that was true then even angels would had been sort of Gods. Well I don't know Richard so I am going to put my hand on my mouth and keep silent. GBU
Oh thank you Ronald ! Once again you have explained my thoughts and put them on here :) , are you a mind reader ? No , you're not , you are a Bible reader :) :) :) .
Hi Giannis , I'm not one for big debates so I would like to keep this brief if that's ok :) . I do not ever pray to Jesus or anyone other than God , my Heavenly Father , the Holy One of Israel . I pray to Him through Jesus Christ my Sinless High Priest who is now in Heaven . As for your question about how Jesus can be in the midst of Christians all over the world , I personally believe that 1st Corinthians Ch 15 can answer that for you . I hope that I've answered your questions satisfactorily , I will let Paul explain it , he's better at that sort of thing than I am :) .
In receiving Christ as the Savior the believer is tagged as the number Seven. Seven in a primary sense is determined in heaven. It speaks for the mystery of his Will. As a new creation The word is his heart or he abides in Christ.(Col.3:1-3). In short Seven is made up of 3+4 (where the sum of 3 the tag for the Son and 4 for the Word become flesh.)
This brings us to the beast, the son of perdition in whom the word of God has no place; neither does he acknowledge the supremacy of the Son.
Satan as destroyer is the angel gone rogue. The Spirit introduces Goliath as epitome of spiritual wickedness in high place (Ge.6:1-3). He is a giant a tag as the number 6 signifies. While describing the person the Spirit gives a list of sixes: his height 6 cubits and the steel point of his javelin weighed 6x100 shekels. It ties with another giant, "And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.." (2 Sa.21:20)
"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not./ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets." (Matt.24:23-24) We are looking at the present times. False Christs and false prophets have their spiel to deceive the unwary. Jesus shall appear as a sign, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (24:27-30)
He appears to gather and not for reigning the disobedient children of wrath on the earth. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him."(Re.1:7)
We see the number 6 associated with Judgment. In the Book of Ezekiel we find six men came by 'the higher gate... every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; (Ez.9:2) Among them one had the writer's inkhorn by his side. God commands him to set a mark upon the foreheads of the men who should be spared from the slaughter of the city. This is a vision but the Spirit inserts the mark, which was earlier introduced in the episode of Abel-Cain episode. It shall be sustained till the end when the saints are described having the name of the Father written on their foreheads( Re.22:4).
Martyrs for the Word of God are those who had not worshiped the Beast (Re.20:4). They shall reign with Jesus Christ in his Messiah aspect. It is the Millennial Reign. It is in heaven. In the new heaven and in the new earth, there was no more sea. (Re.21:1) The overcomers are enclosed within. "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Re.3:12). So we are looking at the mid air.
"but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." (Ex.33:11) The holy city of God has nothing more to do with earth; Jerusalem or sea.
Coming back to the significance of the number we see another group having a mark, either on the foreheads or on their hands. The number is 666 or the Mark of the Beast.
It is not difficult to understand where the authority of the Beast would come from. Satan as destroyer is the angel gone rogue.
Before Satan is totally annihilated he shall wreak havoc on the Children of disobedience. So the ravage is on the spirit, soul and body of man. It is indicated by 6-6-6, each representing the area of corruption. The Spirit set whole man a tripartite creation to represent Triune God.
To quote 'we are looking at the name from the standpoint of God. He named the heaven, the earth and so on. So holiness of God as testified by his Son reflects on the name he acquired above every other name.' In the Book of Genesis' after making Adam a living soul God brings his creation to Adam. "And whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."(Ge.2:19) As mentioned earlier the Spirit presents from the standpoint of the Father and the last book is about the fulfillment of the will of his Father. He is in his majesty and he promises the churches as an overcomer.
Jesus Christ was the Word become flesh and he overcame the world."In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."( John 16:33). So holiness of God, "Be ye holy for I am holy" is the characteristic of the holiness where his grace and truth rounds off each one. The name of the Father is written on His servants. The first fruits, " having his Father's name written in their foreheads.: have their new song. What Jesus Christ promised is the seal of righteousness like the amulet, "Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death;"(The Song 8:6; Re.14:1-3)
Genesis began with, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." and the same after Jesus Christ has fulfilled the divine Will is seen from the POV of the church. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." It is not God but John is recording it.
"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."
We shall try to understand the significance of the name which is the basis for the new heaven and the new earth.
Mary's testimony "Holy is his name" ( Luke 2:48) came from 'the angel Gabriel was sent from God' so we are looking at the name from the standpoint of God. He named the heaven, the earth and so on. So holiness of God as testified by his Son forms on the name he acquired above every other name. His humility and the power of God raising him the dead creates a new insight into the name His humility and the power of God raising him the dead creates a new insight into the name. We have this verse, "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross./Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name." (Ph..2:8-9).
This explains the will of the Father."For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;/And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."(Co.1:19-20). As the inheritor who is worthy to give a name but Jesus Christ. So he promises the overcomer from the church in Pergamos a new name which is as personal as the man on the white horse carried. "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war./2His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself./And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."(Re.19:11-13)
Jesus Christ is the Word become flesh and he overcame the world.
There is much in this chapter, your question is God in this verse the Godhead or the Father?
To answer; in context Jesus was telling parables and the Pharisees, and the Sadducees were trying to trip Jesus up. These verses were about the resurrection, the Pharisees believed in the resurrection, but the Sadducees did not. In verse 31 Jesus asked them haven't you read; Job 19:25-27Psalm 17:15Psalm 49:15 "which was spoken unto you by God" so Jesus is referring to His Father who is God.
What does the word Godhead mean? Does it mean a Triune God? It is in three verses, Acts 17:29Rom. 1:20Col. 2:9. Translated from Greek words which means divine, divinity, or deity, that was replaced with another English word that was not a word until the 1500s and placed only in these three verses and the reason is questionable.
Study for your conscience in prayer with an open mind and through the Holy Spirit, God will show you the truth.
Thank you RLW for your input. It sounds like from your response you don't believe that God is triune like 1 John 5:7 says. The 3 verses about Godhead are not the only part of the Bible that says God is plural. Genesis 1:26 for example: "And God said, Let us make man in our image.." Jesus's followers called Jesus "God" and worshipped Him, etc.
Evidence I see so far indicates that most references to God are triune. One, singular, but triune God. Not 3 Gods, one God. As hard as it is to comprehend the Bible gives a distinction within God between the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.
Thank you, you are correct I believe in one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as most of the greetings in the epistles Ephesians 6:231 Thessalonians 1:1 and more, and nowhere is this doctrine taught in the New Testament that we must believe for salvation.
It is like Matthew 28:19 the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved. My study of 1 John 5:7 is that it was added from the Latin Vulgate and was not in the original text, but that can be debated.
I understand I am in the minority and have discussed this before. We can find Scripture to fit a doctrine, but can we find Scripture where the doctrine was taught? I have not found where the Trinity doctrine is taught. Like Genesis 1:26 there are many beings in heaven and the word us does not say God was speaking to Jesus, that is an assumption.
Thank you again for discussing this in a loving and respectful manor, this subject is deep and as long as we have love for each other, and truth is what we are in search of.
I don't remember who believes what in this forum, but I feel a duty to defend Jesus and defend the truth, so I will share God's word. I feel that's the least I can do as a Christ follower. Do you consider yourself a Christ follower?
If you don't believe Jesus is God then I wonder if you believe Christians are in violation of the 1st of the 10 commandments? Because if you don't think Jesus is God or divine then you might think putting Jesus #1 in their life is bad? If you can explain your religious doctrine or denomination more that would be helpful.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
It is like Matthew 28:19
I'd like to ask about your comment, "the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
I don't totally understand this comment yet. Are you saying you don't see baptizing isn't in the new testament? Because you replied with a verse that is in the new testament, so you seemed to have refuted your own comment?
And the latter half of your comment is "...and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
But the Bible says precisely that in Acts 4:12. It says:
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:10-12 KJV
It says the name of Jesus Christ is through whom we are saved. It says it plain as day. Did I understand your comment correctly?
Also it flat out says Jesus is God in John 1:1 "Word was God" and it says Jesus is the Word in at least a couple other verses
I understand your passion and I believe you may have misunderstood parts of my post; I am sorry. Your first question is yes, I am a follower of Jesus. Jesus answered the scribe and said, Mark 12: 29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And yes, I do, but am I perfect, NO.
I do not belong to any denomination; I have attended many denominations but Catholic and I am in my 70s and there is not a church close to me now that I feel comfortable going to. John 1:1 I will say my understanding is different and too long to explain in this reply maybe another thread.
What I meant about Matthew 28:19 is in this verse Jesus told them to go baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. People use this to support the Trinity doctrine but nowhere in the New Testament is anyone baptized in the name of the three, people were only baptized in the name of Jesus not that there was no baptizing in the New Testament, but they were only baptized in the name of Jesus.
As you listed Acts 4:10-12 only by the name of Jesus and "none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. And that name is who they baptized people in the New Testament not of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian. Can you show me where that was said or was taught anywhere in the New Testament?
I am sorry we do not agree on this, and I hope this helps you understand my last post, and may we be guided by the Holy Spirit in our study for the truth, we are one body.
Thanks for the clarification. If we already discussed this months or years ago I just don't remember, so thank you for explaining. I have a better idea of what you meant now. I'm glad you're a Christian.
My comment didn't have much to do with baptism but your comment did and it seems you were making a distinction between Matthew 28:19 and examples in the Bible where people were baptized. I would have to review to know what if anything was mentioned as being said.
I don't believe people have to believe in a Godhead to be saved. I think you were thinking that was a requirement. I don't believe this is a salvation issue, but just trying to understand the Bible and arrive at the truth. I believe that is the goal here.
You wrote: "Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian."
In the last 50 years or more I've attended many different Christian church denominations and I've never once heard of anyone saying you must believe in a trinity to be saved. Are you sure that is what someone said? This not what typical Christians believe. Can you give an example of what specific Christian church denomination and location or if it was just one person who said this?
I once went to a Calvary Chapel where the guy gave a sermon that said if you don't vote for Obama then you're not a Christian. But I knew enough to know that guy was wacko and his cult beliefs did not represent others in the calvary chapel or in Christianity. It's a common logical fallacy to generalize an entire group of people for one individuals actions or beliefs. What's ironic is Obama is a muslim and pro-abortion, which is a very anti-Christian belief.
But as for not believing Jesus is God. If John 1:1 said and the Word was NOT God, then I would find this belief more credible, but it says the opposite. Jesus is the Word: Revelation 19:13. He's also the I AM: John 8:58, Exodus 3:14.
It is good to hear we are understanding each other better as brothers in Christ. I will in the future give my understanding of John 1:1. The truth is what is important regardless of what we have been taught.
Have you ever asked the question is salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity?
:) , I do wonder what motivates people to ask a question that they already think they know the answer to , is it just to illicit different responses in order to ' debate ' or to berate ? Silence is golden in those circumstances I think ;) .
I see you didn't respond to the question, so I'll put it here again. It's important to know where you get this idea from.
In the last 50 years or more I've attended many different Christian church denominations and I've never once heard of anyone saying you must believe in a trinity to be saved.
Are you sure that is what someone said?
Ronald, can you give an example of what specific Christian church denomination and location you believe said this or if it was just one person who said this to you?
Thank you; The statement of faith of many churches has the Trinity doctrine as a foundational belief of their faith, and you cannot join if you do not agree. I can only say what I have been told and how I was treated in some churches the denominations do not matter. The Orthodox view says if you do not believe the Trinity, you are not saved and are not a Christian. Some bible discussion sites before you go on them you must endorse the Nicene Creed. That is why I love this site and the people on it. Let's leave it at that.
I'm sure you know this went off topic of my original question, but am happy to discuss as long as this is genuine and respectful.
I did some searching online and couldn't yet find any church that believes what you said. A website for Orthodox Christians also said you don't have to believe in trinity to be saved, so I question the validity of this belief.
Is the goal of this is to demean Christians who believe what the Bible says about God in John 1:1, 1 John 5:7? Believing what the Bible says is not a doctrine, but denying it or twisting it can be considered a manmade doctrine.
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 KJV
The Alpha and Omega is the Lord Jesus.
"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Revelation 21:6-7
This says the Alpha and Omega "will be his God". Do you agree?
Does this not plainly say that the Lord Jesus is God?
If Jesus was not God, then why would the Bible say so many times that He IS God, like in John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16, Isaiah 9:6, and His own name Immanuel means "God with us". One would think if God wrote a Bible to convince us that Him dying for us was not Him but someone else and to tell us that salvation is from someone else and not through Him, then why would it say so many times Jesus is God. People called Him God, His name was God, He has the power of God, and the Bible says He is God. But I'm supposed to believe that He isn't though?
I do not have a goal, and I have never tried to demean anyone on this site. I feel this conversation is causing emotions that should not be and I am sorry, I never wanted that and to reply to you would be wrong. Out of love and respect, I will end this discussion.
RLW, that's your choice, but its unfortunate that after all the effort to narrow down differences and beliefs that those still remain unknown. I don't know what emotions you are assuming. Most people don't even know what their own spouse is feeling so to imagine and assume what someone you've never met is feeling by a few words typed on the internet would seem like quite a superpower. God bless.
Thanks, I understand the passion this subject brings. What you said, you may have thought I had a goal to demean Christians believing what the Bible says is when I felt it was going the wrong way. I hope you understand. Maybe we can have other discussions?
RLW, I'm happy to discuss further if its a fair discussion. I asked if your use of trinity "doctrine" was to demean, and I'm gathering from your response that it was unintentional and not a tactic, correct?
This word was used to characterize our believing scripture like 1 John 5:7. You called it a trinity "doctrine" but I just call it reading the Bible as written. So, if you think my belief is a doctrine then I suppose your belief is a doctrine- that would only be fair. Just want a level playing field for whatever is discussed.
I think believing the Bible as written is important without distortion or bias, but I believe many things discussed in forums like this, such as the trinity, are not salvation issues. I've never met another Christian who has ever believed this, either. There are more that believe baptism, tithing or taking communion are higher on the essentials list than believing in trinity. Some churches have pastors that don't agree on the trinity. It is admittedly a confusing concept that humans cannot easily relate to, because we don't have 1 be 3 things and also 3 be 1 in our world.
God is greater than our comprehension and I trust that when God's Word says things like John 1:1 or 1 John 5:7 that it is true. I am aware of your objection with the translation, but I believe it is already accurately translated and other scriptures support it too. I also think there's a tendency to target the translation for verses people don't like, but often the verses people do like aren't equally dissected. This leads to a distorted understanding in my opinion.
I'm curious what you think about the last two verses shared about Jesus being the Alpha and Omega. To me that says that Jesus is God, but I'm sure you've read this before and have reconciled this with your belief somehow, so I'm open to hearing that. But if you want to save it for another day that's fine too. God bless.
I have a question for all fellow christians who do not consider that Jesus is God.(hello Ronald, I saw your comment and I was reminded of something I was thinking lately.)
Let me do an introduction before going to my point. When we talk with people from the Orthodox church who often pray to saints or to Mary Jesus' mother, we ask them how is it possible that they hear you all, millions and millions of you, they are not Gods after all. So many millions of people pray to Mary, how is she able to hear them all and, as they claim, she often responds. She is not God, only God can do that.
So I come to what I want to say. Somewhere in NT, Jesus says that when two or more are gathered in His name then He is there among them. How is that possible if Jesus is not God. Because at the same time I believe thousands of congregations take place in the whole world. To do such a thing one must have divine properties. He also said somewhere that when we ask something in His name then He will do that. How can He hear millions of prayers simultaneously if He is not God.
Expecting for your opinion.
So the claim to Christ's Divinity is not an issue after His Birth, Life & Ministry, rather, the issue is even before His Birth to lay down His Life. I consider John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down HIS life for his friends" and 1 John 3:16, "Hereby perceive we the love (of God), because he laid down HIS life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." (Noting, that "of God" is in italics, thus not in the original). And from these verses, I ask, 'are we seeing simply Christ's Love for all that caused Him to lay down His Life in sacrifice, or are we also seeing God's Love for all in bringing forth a Son for the purpose of providing the one & only Sacrifice?'
It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation.
Very good point here Brother Christ.
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 20:28.
This love was displayed to us while we were yet sinners.
God bless
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks for your reply to my comment.
I will keep it short since we have had those discussions before and we know what each one of us believe.
I noticed that you believe that when a human person receives the fullness of the Spirit somehow they aquire divine characteristics as if though they are Gods themselves. ie omnipresence, speak all languages, hear millions of people simultaneously. Well there are some churches that actually believe that we will become sort of Gods. The Ortodox church is one of those.
Also Jema (why is she gone? I actually liked very much her encouraging comments,I will miss them) in her reply to me said that we will become something sort of Gods when we will be dressed up with our spiritual body.
Although there isn't any revelation from God about the state we will be in Heaven, I still find it very hard to believe that. If that was true then even angels would had been sort of Gods. Well I don't know Richard so I am going to put my hand on my mouth and keep silent. GBU
In receiving Christ as the Savior the believer is tagged as the number Seven. Seven in a primary sense is determined in heaven. It speaks for the mystery of his Will. As a new creation The word is his heart or he abides in Christ.(Col.3:1-3). In short Seven is made up of 3+4 (where the sum of 3 the tag for the Son and 4 for the Word become flesh.)
This brings us to the beast, the son of perdition in whom the word of God has no place; neither does he acknowledge the supremacy of the Son.
Satan as destroyer is the angel gone rogue. The Spirit introduces Goliath as epitome of spiritual wickedness in high place (Ge.6:1-3). He is a giant a tag as the number 6 signifies. While describing the person the Spirit gives a list of sixes: his height 6 cubits and the steel point of his javelin weighed 6x100 shekels. It ties with another giant, "And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.." (2 Sa.21:20)
"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not./ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets." (Matt.24:23-24) We are looking at the present times. False Christs and false prophets have their spiel to deceive the unwary. Jesus shall appear as a sign, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (24:27-30)
He appears to gather and not for reigning the disobedient children of wrath on the earth. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him."(Re.1:7)
We see the number 6 associated with Judgment. In the Book of Ezekiel we find six men came by 'the higher gate... every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; (Ez.9:2) Among them one had the writer's inkhorn by his side. God commands him to set a mark upon the foreheads of the men who should be spared from the slaughter of the city. This is a vision but the Spirit inserts the mark, which was earlier introduced in the episode of Abel-Cain episode. It shall be sustained till the end when the saints are described having the name of the Father written on their foreheads( Re.22:4).
Martyrs for the Word of God are those who had not worshiped the Beast (Re.20:4). They shall reign with Jesus Christ in his Messiah aspect. It is the Millennial Reign. It is in heaven. In the new heaven and in the new earth, there was no more sea. (Re.21:1) The overcomers are enclosed within. "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Re.3:12). So we are looking at the mid air.
"but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." (Ex.33:11) The holy city of God has nothing more to do with earth; Jerusalem or sea.
Coming back to the significance of the number we see another group having a mark, either on the foreheads or on their hands. The number is 666 or the Mark of the Beast.
It is not difficult to understand where the authority of the Beast would come from. Satan as destroyer is the angel gone rogue.
Before Satan is totally annihilated he shall wreak havoc on the Children of disobedience. So the ravage is on the spirit, soul and body of man. It is indicated by 6-6-6, each representing the area of corruption. The Spirit set whole man a tripartite creation to represent Triune God.
To quote 'we are looking at the name from the standpoint of God. He named the heaven, the earth and so on. So holiness of God as testified by his Son reflects on the name he acquired above every other name.' In the Book of Genesis' after making Adam a living soul God brings his creation to Adam. "And whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."(Ge.2:19) As mentioned earlier the Spirit presents from the standpoint of the Father and the last book is about the fulfillment of the will of his Father. He is in his majesty and he promises the churches as an overcomer.
Jesus Christ was the Word become flesh and he overcame the world."In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."( John 16:33). So holiness of God, "Be ye holy for I am holy" is the characteristic of the holiness where his grace and truth rounds off each one. The name of the Father is written on His servants. The first fruits, " having his Father's name written in their foreheads.: have their new song. What Jesus Christ promised is the seal of righteousness like the amulet, "Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death;"(The Song 8:6; Re.14:1-3)
Genesis began with, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." and the same after Jesus Christ has fulfilled the divine Will is seen from the POV of the church. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." It is not God but John is recording it.
"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."
We shall try to understand the significance of the name which is the basis for the new heaven and the new earth.
Mary's testimony "Holy is his name" ( Luke 2:48) came from 'the angel Gabriel was sent from God' so we are looking at the name from the standpoint of God. He named the heaven, the earth and so on. So holiness of God as testified by his Son forms on the name he acquired above every other name. His humility and the power of God raising him the dead creates a new insight into the name His humility and the power of God raising him the dead creates a new insight into the name. We have this verse, "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross./Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name." (Ph..2:8-9).
This explains the will of the Father."For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;/And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."(Co.1:19-20). As the inheritor who is worthy to give a name but Jesus Christ. So he promises the overcomer from the church in Pergamos a new name which is as personal as the man on the white horse carried. "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war./2His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself./And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."(Re.19:11-13)
Jesus Christ is the Word become flesh and he overcame the world.
When God is mentioned in the Bible, does it mostly mean the Godhead (trinity 1 John 5:7) or does it mostly mean God the Father?
"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Matthew 22:32 KJV
Jesus is saying this and quoting scripture.
Is God in this verse, for example, the Godhead or the Father?
There is much in this chapter, your question is God in this verse the Godhead or the Father?
To answer; in context Jesus was telling parables and the Pharisees, and the Sadducees were trying to trip Jesus up. These verses were about the resurrection, the Pharisees believed in the resurrection, but the Sadducees did not. In verse 31 Jesus asked them haven't you read; Job 19:25-27 Psalm 17:15 Psalm 49:15 "which was spoken unto you by God" so Jesus is referring to His Father who is God.
What does the word Godhead mean? Does it mean a Triune God? It is in three verses, Acts 17:29 Rom. 1:20 Col. 2:9. Translated from Greek words which means divine, divinity, or deity, that was replaced with another English word that was not a word until the 1500s and placed only in these three verses and the reason is questionable.
Study for your conscience in prayer with an open mind and through the Holy Spirit, God will show you the truth.
God bless,
RLW
Evidence I see so far indicates that most references to God are triune. One, singular, but triune God. Not 3 Gods, one God. As hard as it is to comprehend the Bible gives a distinction within God between the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.
Thank you, you are correct I believe in one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as most of the greetings in the epistles Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 and more, and nowhere is this doctrine taught in the New Testament that we must believe for salvation.
It is like Matthew 28:19 the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved. My study of 1 John 5:7 is that it was added from the Latin Vulgate and was not in the original text, but that can be debated.
I understand I am in the minority and have discussed this before. We can find Scripture to fit a doctrine, but can we find Scripture where the doctrine was taught? I have not found where the Trinity doctrine is taught. Like Genesis 1:26 there are many beings in heaven and the word us does not say God was speaking to Jesus, that is an assumption.
Thank you again for discussing this in a loving and respectful manor, this subject is deep and as long as we have love for each other, and truth is what we are in search of.
God bless,
RLW
I don't remember who believes what in this forum, but I feel a duty to defend Jesus and defend the truth, so I will share God's word. I feel that's the least I can do as a Christ follower. Do you consider yourself a Christ follower?
If you don't believe Jesus is God then I wonder if you believe Christians are in violation of the 1st of the 10 commandments? Because if you don't think Jesus is God or divine then you might think putting Jesus #1 in their life is bad? If you can explain your religious doctrine or denomination more that would be helpful.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
It is like Matthew 28:19
I'd like to ask about your comment, "the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
I don't totally understand this comment yet. Are you saying you don't see baptizing isn't in the new testament? Because you replied with a verse that is in the new testament, so you seemed to have refuted your own comment?
And the latter half of your comment is "...and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
But the Bible says precisely that in Acts 4:12. It says:
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:10-12 KJV
It says the name of Jesus Christ is through whom we are saved. It says it plain as day. Did I understand your comment correctly?
Also it flat out says Jesus is God in John 1:1 "Word was God" and it says Jesus is the Word in at least a couple other verses
I understand your passion and I believe you may have misunderstood parts of my post; I am sorry. Your first question is yes, I am a follower of Jesus. Jesus answered the scribe and said, Mark 12: 29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And yes, I do, but am I perfect, NO.
I do not belong to any denomination; I have attended many denominations but Catholic and I am in my 70s and there is not a church close to me now that I feel comfortable going to. John 1:1 I will say my understanding is different and too long to explain in this reply maybe another thread.
What I meant about Matthew 28:19 is in this verse Jesus told them to go baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. People use this to support the Trinity doctrine but nowhere in the New Testament is anyone baptized in the name of the three, people were only baptized in the name of Jesus not that there was no baptizing in the New Testament, but they were only baptized in the name of Jesus.
As you listed Acts 4:10-12 only by the name of Jesus and "none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. And that name is who they baptized people in the New Testament not of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian. Can you show me where that was said or was taught anywhere in the New Testament?
I am sorry we do not agree on this, and I hope this helps you understand my last post, and may we be guided by the Holy Spirit in our study for the truth, we are one body.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks for the clarification. If we already discussed this months or years ago I just don't remember, so thank you for explaining. I have a better idea of what you meant now. I'm glad you're a Christian.
My comment didn't have much to do with baptism but your comment did and it seems you were making a distinction between Matthew 28:19 and examples in the Bible where people were baptized. I would have to review to know what if anything was mentioned as being said.
I don't believe people have to believe in a Godhead to be saved. I think you were thinking that was a requirement. I don't believe this is a salvation issue, but just trying to understand the Bible and arrive at the truth. I believe that is the goal here.
You wrote: "Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian."
In the last 50 years or more I've attended many different Christian church denominations and I've never once heard of anyone saying you must believe in a trinity to be saved. Are you sure that is what someone said? This not what typical Christians believe. Can you give an example of what specific Christian church denomination and location or if it was just one person who said this?
I once went to a Calvary Chapel where the guy gave a sermon that said if you don't vote for Obama then you're not a Christian. But I knew enough to know that guy was wacko and his cult beliefs did not represent others in the calvary chapel or in Christianity. It's a common logical fallacy to generalize an entire group of people for one individuals actions or beliefs. What's ironic is Obama is a muslim and pro-abortion, which is a very anti-Christian belief.
But as for not believing Jesus is God. If John 1:1 said and the Word was NOT God, then I would find this belief more credible, but it says the opposite. Jesus is the Word: Revelation 19:13. He's also the I AM: John 8:58, Exodus 3:14.
It is good to hear we are understanding each other better as brothers in Christ. I will in the future give my understanding of John 1:1. The truth is what is important regardless of what we have been taught.
Have you ever asked the question is salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity?
God bless,
RLW
I see you didn't respond to the question, so I'll put it here again. It's important to know where you get this idea from.
In the last 50 years or more I've attended many different Christian church denominations and I've never once heard of anyone saying you must believe in a trinity to be saved.
Are you sure that is what someone said?
Ronald, can you give an example of what specific Christian church denomination and location you believe said this or if it was just one person who said this to you?
Thank you; The statement of faith of many churches has the Trinity doctrine as a foundational belief of their faith, and you cannot join if you do not agree. I can only say what I have been told and how I was treated in some churches the denominations do not matter. The Orthodox view says if you do not believe the Trinity, you are not saved and are not a Christian. Some bible discussion sites before you go on them you must endorse the Nicene Creed. That is why I love this site and the people on it. Let's leave it at that.
God bless,
RLW
I did some searching online and couldn't yet find any church that believes what you said. A website for Orthodox Christians also said you don't have to believe in trinity to be saved, so I question the validity of this belief.
Is the goal of this is to demean Christians who believe what the Bible says about God in John 1:1, 1 John 5:7? Believing what the Bible says is not a doctrine, but denying it or twisting it can be considered a manmade doctrine.
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 KJV
The Alpha and Omega is the Lord Jesus.
"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Revelation 21:6-7
This says the Alpha and Omega "will be his God". Do you agree?
Does this not plainly say that the Lord Jesus is God?
If Jesus was not God, then why would the Bible say so many times that He IS God, like in John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16, Isaiah 9:6, and His own name Immanuel means "God with us". One would think if God wrote a Bible to convince us that Him dying for us was not Him but someone else and to tell us that salvation is from someone else and not through Him, then why would it say so many times Jesus is God. People called Him God, His name was God, He has the power of God, and the Bible says He is God. But I'm supposed to believe that He isn't though?
I do not have a goal, and I have never tried to demean anyone on this site. I feel this conversation is causing emotions that should not be and I am sorry, I never wanted that and to reply to you would be wrong. Out of love and respect, I will end this discussion.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks, I understand the passion this subject brings. What you said, you may have thought I had a goal to demean Christians believing what the Bible says is when I felt it was going the wrong way. I hope you understand. Maybe we can have other discussions?
God bless,
RLW
This word was used to characterize our believing scripture like 1 John 5:7. You called it a trinity "doctrine" but I just call it reading the Bible as written. So, if you think my belief is a doctrine then I suppose your belief is a doctrine- that would only be fair. Just want a level playing field for whatever is discussed.
I think believing the Bible as written is important without distortion or bias, but I believe many things discussed in forums like this, such as the trinity, are not salvation issues. I've never met another Christian who has ever believed this, either. There are more that believe baptism, tithing or taking communion are higher on the essentials list than believing in trinity. Some churches have pastors that don't agree on the trinity. It is admittedly a confusing concept that humans cannot easily relate to, because we don't have 1 be 3 things and also 3 be 1 in our world.
God is greater than our comprehension and I trust that when God's Word says things like John 1:1 or 1 John 5:7 that it is true. I am aware of your objection with the translation, but I believe it is already accurately translated and other scriptures support it too. I also think there's a tendency to target the translation for verses people don't like, but often the verses people do like aren't equally dissected. This leads to a distorted understanding in my opinion.
I'm curious what you think about the last two verses shared about Jesus being the Alpha and Omega. To me that says that Jesus is God, but I'm sure you've read this before and have reconciled this with your belief somehow, so I'm open to hearing that. But if you want to save it for another day that's fine too. God bless.
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