In looking at the Orthodox church it seems from what I am seeing it is only the Eastern Orthodox (however defined) that believes this; while others believe Christ always existed. Or perhaps it is the idea that somehow the Spirit and Christ existed within God somehow and was separated?
I looked at that term "deified" or something to that affect. I would define the new body as glorified but not God-that is disturbing.
All the power we will have in our glorified body it is due to God's provision; and all the authority in which we rule and reign with Christ. The other weird thing is how we are supposedly in our material bodies somehow tied in some mysterious way to the creation like it is still happening or something if I get that right.
As for me; I didn't understand how my ex wife was able to marry someone in that church if they knew she was divorced from someone. I thought they were against that.
St. Gregory the Theologian says that we are fully involved with the material creation by virtue of our physical existence, and that the material created reality is deeply involved with us. If we move to the direction of deification, our human nature, progressing towards God, will somehow carry the created material world with it. Quoted from article from website Orthodox Church of America (oca.org on orthodoxy section/the-orthodox-faith)
This seems to be contradictory to the statement that flesh and blood can't enter the Kingdom of God but I suppose it could fit in if they actually believed in a Rapture event of the living (which I doubt they do unless a Post Millennial event).
What my Lord JESUS said is that ' they which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels (Example: Genesis 19:1-4. Take a look); and are the children of GOD, being the children of the resurrection.
And Paul Apostle revealed: Philippians 3:20-21:
20 For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8. Take a look. Are you in heaven or not? Or you don't know?); from whence also WE LOOK for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BOVY(this is not a magic, this is a process, it is(will be) worked) that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the WORKING whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
And Paul said more: 1 Corinthians 15:24-27 and 51-55:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD( Revelation 11:15-18), even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY and POWER.
25 For JESUS must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all BE CHANGED, (not by magic, but a process)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (in the last seven years of the world of Devil- Revelation 11:15 and 18.Take a look), at the last Trump ( 1Thessalonians 4:16 combined with Daniel 12:1-3.Take a look):for the Trumpet shall sound( Revelation 11:15) and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The Ortodox believe in the post trib rapture. They don't use the term "the rapture of the saints" but always talk about "the 2nd presence of Christ". Also they believe that the millenium is a figurative period of time which actually started when Jesus ascended to Heaven and will finish at the White Throne Judgement. All events described in that millenium are figurative for what is occuring from Jesus' time till the very end.
About St Gregory the Theologian I don't know what he tought. But from what I read in your comment I tend to think that probably what he had in mind is what Paul tells us in Rom 819-23, "19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body"
I have to point out that the grk doesn't say "creature" but "creation" in all the above verses. And all interpretations I have read so far is that it means the whole creation, everything that has been created, the whole world, land, living beings, everything.
Which leaves me to think that the creation which is now in decay/corruption/wear will be libarated at that time, probably meaning that everything will be in a glorified stable condition in the new earth we will be living on. And I believe that "the blood and flesh" is for people, not for the rest of material creation.
About "deification" I don't want to say any opinion, I am very sceptical about it, This is actually something it is never discussed in my church.
'arche' = 'something that was in the beginning: a first principle; a substance or primal element; an actuating principle (as a cause). If we take the first meaning of 'something having a beginning', then your suggestion might be valid. If, as 'an actuating principal - a causation', then we read the verse as, 'These things saith the Amen.the One to cause or initiate all of God's Creation'; that Jesus Himself wasn't God's first Creation, but the cause or reason for creation, i.e. the 'He Who initiated the beginning of creation', being the 'Reason for creation's beginning'.
'proto-tokos' = 'first-to bring forth'. Here, in Colossians 1:15,18, Jesus is seen as both the "firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead". I see 'firstborn' here, not with a biological view, but in Christ's position; or else, He was certainly not the 'firstborn from the dead', as some have been brought to life from the dead prior to His Resurrection. So, it's best to read these verses as Jesus' station & rank that remains, as always, above every human being & all of creation, whether in their creation, birth or death. And as a side-note, we must be aware that the JW conveniently changes 'prototokos' to 'protokitises': from 'first to bring forth' to 'first to be created': which of course supports the idea that Jesus was a created Being.
You said '(i.e. that Jesus was also a created Being) cannot also be the One 'through' Whom God created all things".
Based in your words the King James Version should or must change what is written in Hebrews 1:1-3, as follow:
1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us BY HIS SON, whom GOD hath appointed heir of all things, by WHOM also He -GOD- made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of GOD's Glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of GOD's Person-the Word is GOD-, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power(Matt.28:18), when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Chris, see,
based in the everlasting Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, YOUR TESTIMONY of my Lord JESUS is false, it is fake.
Be careful, because even my Lord JESUS left very clear saying that "out of the heart proceed false witness, and blasphemies, evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts:
Thank you for your explanation. For me what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD. As is written, the witness of GOD is greater: this is the witness of GOD which He hath testified of His Son. Hebrews 1:8 - Unto the Son GOD saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the Sceptre of thy kingdom.
Your second question: "If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die?" There are varying beliefs about Jesus' position in Heaven prior to His incarnation. I rather simply accept John 1:1-18, John 14:10,11, John 16:27,28, 1 John 5:7, that Jesus came forth from God. Did He come out as a Divine Being in the presence of God, to be made a human for the sake of death, or did God take His Own Word & give Him flesh for this very purpose? We don't have a problem of God sending out His Spirit & the Spirit's indwelling in every believer (can He even be dissected?), but to send His Word out, clothe Him in a body, unnerves many.
"How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted...How can God die?" God is Spirit - He is Immortal - He can never die. No one, having a spirit from God, can die - the body will perish, but who can destroy the spirit which cannot be touched by age or man's devices? But if the immortal is given a body, as Jesus received, or even as we also have to house our spirits, then the body will die but the spirit lives on. Can God take on flesh? A mystery no human can fully fathom, but truly "a body hast thou prepared me" ( Hebrews 10:5-7, taken from Psalm 40:6-8). So Jesus could be tempted & could die whilst in the body, and so in His complete identification with sinful men in need of salvation, Philippians 2:6-8 reminds us:
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." "thought it not robbery" = Jesus didn't grasp onto/retain His equality with God, but 'emptied Himself' ('ekenosen'), laying aside His Glory, to become a Man, obedient to death that which was the Father's Plan.
I read your views on this when I got in from work late Friday night.
I had to do some catching up as I fell behind on my following.
I believe Chris and Giannis covered much on this topic far better than I would be able to.
What I did notice is there is some disparity in the usage of the Greek between you and them that is vital to understanding the truth in which you search.
However, I was just wanted to add something, if it haven't already been touched on.
Just to clear up my sloppy reply last night I was trying to not only showcase the Trinity in presented in the Gospel of John and 1 John 1. but to highlight words in the text that "describes" a being rather than focusing on "In the beginning"
I am 100 percent sure that John is not talking about Christ ministry as the beginning here.
However, if I gave you that it still doesn't settle the fact that the scripture doesn't only say "and the Word was with God," It says "AND THE WORD WAS GOD".
Verse 2 describes a time and location.
The same was IN THE BEGINNING "WITH GOD".
There is also verse 4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
When we are born again we become one with Christ by the Spirit.
This is a everlasting Spirit! The "Spirit of God"
We have a birth date.
The Spirit of God does not.
The Spirit of God is life and Christ was sent from God to give us life and make us sons of God!
Our bodies are hardware. Our life is software. Christ proceeded from the Father and took on a body/hardware and filled it with a preexisting Spirit that has NO beginning.
We have been quickened by a life giving Spirit that has NO beginning.
It seems in your replies you are focusing on verses that presents Jesus Humanity.
Thanks again, I feel I am among the minority on this and I am grateful that people on this site are willing to discuss it. As I said to Chris "in the beginning" what John is referring to makes a big difference in understanding. If it is the Genesis creation or if it is the beginning of Jesus's ministry when He was anointed with the Holy Spirit. I agree with you the Spirit of God the Holy Spirit is eternal. God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and has always been.
If we look at 1 John 1:1 this is clearly the beginning of Jesus ministry, John says they have heard, they have seen with their eyes, they saw and touch Him with their hands, this is clearly not the Genesis creation beginning but Jesus's ministry. To me 1 John 1:1 does not show a trinity.
The word of God that is applied to Jesus is only once in the Bible and it was in Revelation 19:3 it was his name was called; Jesus was the word of God in the flesh God was manifested in Jesus but that does not mean Jesus preexisted His birth. I am still praying and studying for the truth, I to once believed Jesus preexisted but to many Scriptures do not agree.
Like Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Why are they two different things here?
I don't believe anyone see the Trinity in 1 John 1:1 by itself but I do believe it's seen in 1 John 1:1-7 and John 1:10 without having to add or take away from Scripture.
And, 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" was dealt with between you and others.
However the first part of that verse "That which was from the beginning". Is easily seen that this portion of scripture takes a person (Jesus) and associates him with a beginning as mentioned in John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD.
Jn 1:10. He was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not.
it's clear Jesus existed before his earthly ministry.
Are you going into your studies without a predetermined position?
Ronald with all due respect your passion and study in this seems to be to exterminate the view rather search to see if it is any truth to it.
I believe in what John 1:1 says that line up with scriptures from Genesis 1:1 on through Revelation.
Thanks Brother and I pray that God bless you in your journey as you continue in your studies.
I thank you so much for discussing this and thank you Giannis. I am not the best at explaining my understanding.
I know John 1:1 we see it differently but what beginning makes the difference, it was the word of God in Jesus as Jesus never said it was His words but the Father's words, and God was manifested in Jesus John 1:142 Corinthians 5:19. In Colossians as well as Ephesians that is similar My understanding Paul is talking about the risen Christ as faith in Christ, redemption that is in Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, we are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, the risen Jesus.
I read what you replied to Momsage on this and I hope you are not considering me in the Gnostic camp. My understanding comes totally from Scripture and the Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in Scripture, it was hundreds of years after the deaths of the apostles, as in Matthew 28:19 is taken as the Trinity and many churches abide by this today, but nowhere in Scripture do we see anyone baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, what we see is only in the name of Jesus?
I know you will not agree but to say Jesus is God this verse stands out to me 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30Romans 15:61 Corinthians 8:62 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 11:31Ephesians 1:3Ephesians 1:17Ephesians 3:14Ephesians 4:6Colossians 1:31 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34John 14:28John 17:3John 20:17Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
Col 1:16, "For BY HIM were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created BY HIM, and for him:"
The grk for that "by him" is "en auto". The precise meaning of that is "in him". But here it takes the meaning "by him". That is why at the end of the verse Paul repeats :... created BY HIM (in grk di'autou), ..." The right translation of "di'autou" is "through him". So Paul uses both "in Him" and "through Him" for the same thing. He actually means "by Him"
Also see verse 14, "IN WHOM (in grk en o) we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:".
Why does Paul say "in whom" and not "by whom" or "from whom" or "through whom?"
See verse 20, "And, having made peace THROUGH(dia) the blood of his cross, BY HIM(di'autou) to reconcile all things unto himself; BY HIM(di'autou), I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven". As before in both cases the right translation is "through Him"
So again although Paul talks about the same thing, in verse 14 he says "in whom" and in verse 20 he says "through Him", in both verses meaning "by Him"
Probably when Paul is using the phrase "in Him", he means that everything takes place "in Jesus", which means that everything initiates and finishes inside Him who is the Alpha and the Omega, the Begining and the End of everything. Paul is actually very hard to understand sometimes, even by people of his time. GBU
Goodbye and may God bless you all , especially Mishael , Skip , Fred , Bennymkje , Richard , Alex and Earl . Looking forward to seeing you in Our Father's Kingdom . In my heart always .
Fellowship of God with Man is inshrined in heaven as a memorial. In Re.5:6 we have a visual transcription of the will of God and it shall never change. There must a body, is it not? The body of four and twenty elders is one. The body has its glory ordained by God."But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body." (1 Co.15:38-41). Consequently we see the four beasts and they are reflecting the glory of God and setting his Son as the firstborn of all creation: it gives us one beast having the face of a man. God created man 'in our image', and we have the last Adam represented. According to the will of God 'Let them have dominion,' refers to Adam and three beasts representing His creation.
Fellowship of God with Man is inshrined in heaven as a memorial. In Re.5:6 we have a visual transcription of the will of God and it shall never change. There must a body, is it not? The body of four and twenty elders is one. There is also another body of the four beasts and they are reflecting the glory of God and setting his Son as the firstborn of all creation gives us one beast having the face of a man. God created man 'in our image', and we have the last Adam represented. According to the will of God 'Let them have dominion,' refers to Adam and three beasts representing His creation.
Secondly theSpirit aspect: "And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."(Re.4:5). Thirdly we have the Lamb who 'prevailed to open the book' with seven seals, and he was found worthy to set judgement in motion. As an overcomer he represents the soul, or as head of the church. Body Spirit and Soul constitute Trinity as a memorial in heaven.
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them (Ge.1:27)" defines Trinity:The Word made flesh was continuation of the Spirit of Christ with which he could be deemed the Spiritual Rock (1 Co.10:4). For this reason he could say," Jesus said to the Jews, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.(John8:58-NKJV)."
Symbolism of the rock, water and the slain Lamb are sustained no matter where, whether in heaven or on earth the word is established eternally.
When we speak of human likeness his body spirit and soul gives Trinity a template for every believer. In creating man in 'our likeness' body spirit and soul of man correspond with Trinity.
By principle of Similitude heaven and earth are set on a single standard. The Son upholds all things 'by the word of his power' similarly he reconciles all men to his Father in him.
It is set in a series of parables. In the parables of Job one might think of the Socratic dialogue as nearest, and it is search for truth as its core value. The Bible clearly declares no man may question God and wrest a meaning by force or by arguments. "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?(Is.45:9). We find Abraham interceding with God with regards to the imminent judgment over Sodom. He asks, "And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" Ge.18:17-33).
Truth is the only basis that 'still small voice' as in the case of Elijah, plays a crucial role in the parables of Job. Job uses a parable, which in the parlance of the Spirit is to instruct us the depths and riches we have in the eternal God.
For example what is the confidence of Job? "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:(19:25)" How do we reconcile this idea 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth' (Is.55:8-9) with our thoughts ? Truth in our heart is the only medium of instruction. The Spirit has set the Book of Job with this in mind as a series of parables.
Parables are clothed with allusions to the natural world so these are direct confrontation of two worlds of the flesh and the Spirit.
Parables are to be understood as introduction 'How To Do the Will of My Father in some easy lessons' could well be the by-line to the whole body of Parables. Key to understand him is to do the will of God the Father," If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself ( John 7:17)."
It is said that those of the Oneness Pentacostal camp never refer to themselves as "modalists"; and in reality the term "Trinity" although the best description we have for God being represented by three different entities as it were along with any other term has its limitations. As with any other issue; when there is error involved there is always a deeper reason as well as associated other spurious elements of doctrine involved. I am writing believing in; more or less the Trinitarian approach and using scriptures to support this concept which I will attempt to do in further postings; provided that incoming comments are something the Lord leads me to respond to and that it is edifying to involve myself is such an undertaking.
The first thing I feel obligated to respond to is the charge by those such as Jino Jennings that those of my persuasion believe in multiple gods or 3 different dieties. That by no means is what I and others believe. I will also give positive affirmation where praise is due; the focus on holiness which is mandated by those in that camp and knowledge of scripture; particularly in the Old Testament helps build knowledge. He and others in that type of church also tend to have elders read scriptures along with their commentary and also preach from time to time. Such involvement would be helpful in any church to some extent as scripturally the gift of elder is basically synonymous with a pastor and there should be shared responsibilities in a church rather than the imbalance we sometimes see when a head pastor tries to fly solo. There is; however a tendancy among that denomination of shouting and appearing to "lord it over" people; shouting and other "signs" such as tongues and uncontrollable behaviors that are often part of a typical service. An emphasis on the necessity of speaking in tongues to be saved was a challenge given to me over 30 years ago which goes against 1 Corinthians 12:30
I have a question for all fellow christians who do not consider that Jesus is God.(hello Ronald, I saw your comment and I was reminded of something I was thinking lately.)
Let me do an introduction before going to my point. When we talk with people from the Orthodox church who often pray to saints or to Mary Jesus' mother, we ask them how is it possible that they hear you all, millions and millions of you, they are not Gods after all. So many millions of people pray to Mary, how is she able to hear them all and, as they claim, she often responds. She is not God, only God can do that.
So I come to what I want to say. Somewhere in NT, Jesus says that when two or more are gathered in His name then He is there among them. How is that possible if Jesus is not God. Because at the same time I believe thousands of congregations take place in the whole world. To do such a thing one must have divine properties. He also said somewhere that when we ask something in His name then He will do that. How can He hear millions of prayers simultaneously if He is not God.
Brother Giannis. I note that your question is directed to those holding a non-trinitarian position, but thought to clarify that these folk would willingly accept that at the miraculous birth of Jesus, His impeccable & sinless life, & His Father's acceptance of Him & ascension to His right Hand, Jesus gained a complete Divine character & position with the Father. Therefore, regarding Jesus' Presence & Ministry among us by His Spirit denotes His present divinity, assuming all of God's Nature within Him. And this understanding I feel can be accepted by all of us: that of Christ being Divine & sending forth His Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of God to accomplish His Will.
So the claim to Christ's Divinity is not an issue after His Birth, Life & Ministry, rather, the issue is even before His Birth to lay down His Life. I consider John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down HIS life for his friends" and 1 John 3:16, "Hereby perceive we the love (of God), because he laid down HIS life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." (Noting, that "of God" is in italics, thus not in the original). And from these verses, I ask, 'are we seeing simply Christ's Love for all that caused Him to lay down His Life in sacrifice, or are we also seeing God's Love for all in bringing forth a Son for the purpose of providing the one & only Sacrifice?'
It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation.
"It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation."
Very good point here Brother Christ.
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 20:28.
This love was displayed to us while we were yet sinners.
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
I will keep it short since we have had those discussions before and we know what each one of us believe.
I noticed that you believe that when a human person receives the fullness of the Spirit somehow they aquire divine characteristics as if though they are Gods themselves. ie omnipresence, speak all languages, hear millions of people simultaneously. Well there are some churches that actually believe that we will become sort of Gods. The Ortodox church is one of those.
Also Jema (why is she gone? I actually liked very much her encouraging comments,I will miss them) in her reply to me said that we will become something sort of Gods when we will be dressed up with our spiritual body.
Although there isn't any revelation from God about the state we will be in Heaven, I still find it very hard to believe that. If that was true then even angels would had been sort of Gods. Well I don't know Richard so I am going to put my hand on my mouth and keep silent. GBU
Oh thank you Ronald ! Once again you have explained my thoughts and put them on here :) , are you a mind reader ? No , you're not , you are a Bible reader :) :) :) .
Hi Giannis , I'm not one for big debates so I would like to keep this brief if that's ok :) . I do not ever pray to Jesus or anyone other than God , my Heavenly Father , the Holy One of Israel . I pray to Him through Jesus Christ my Sinless High Priest who is now in Heaven . As for your question about how Jesus can be in the midst of Christians all over the world , I personally believe that 1st Corinthians Ch 15 can answer that for you . I hope that I've answered your questions satisfactorily , I will let Paul explain it , he's better at that sort of thing than I am :) .
I looked at that term "deified" or something to that affect. I would define the new body as glorified but not God-that is disturbing.
All the power we will have in our glorified body it is due to God's provision; and all the authority in which we rule and reign with Christ. The other weird thing is how we are supposedly in our material bodies somehow tied in some mysterious way to the creation like it is still happening or something if I get that right.
As for me; I didn't understand how my ex wife was able to marry someone in that church if they knew she was divorced from someone. I thought they were against that.
This seems to be contradictory to the statement that flesh and blood can't enter the Kingdom of God but I suppose it could fit in if they actually believed in a Rapture event of the living (which I doubt they do unless a Post Millennial event).
What my Lord JESUS said is that ' they which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels (Example: Genesis 19:1-4. Take a look); and are the children of GOD, being the children of the resurrection.
And Paul Apostle revealed: Philippians 3:20-21:
20 For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8. Take a look. Are you in heaven or not? Or you don't know?); from whence also WE LOOK for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BOVY(this is not a magic, this is a process, it is(will be) worked) that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the WORKING whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
And Paul said more: 1 Corinthians 15:24-27 and 51-55:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD( Revelation 11:15-18), even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY and POWER.
25 For JESUS must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all BE CHANGED, (not by magic, but a process)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (in the last seven years of the world of Devil- Revelation 11:15 and 18.Take a look), at the last Trump ( 1Thessalonians 4:16 combined with Daniel 12:1-3.Take a look):for the Trumpet shall sound( Revelation 11:15) and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The Ortodox believe in the post trib rapture. They don't use the term "the rapture of the saints" but always talk about "the 2nd presence of Christ". Also they believe that the millenium is a figurative period of time which actually started when Jesus ascended to Heaven and will finish at the White Throne Judgement. All events described in that millenium are figurative for what is occuring from Jesus' time till the very end.
About St Gregory the Theologian I don't know what he tought. But from what I read in your comment I tend to think that probably what he had in mind is what Paul tells us in Rom 819-23, "19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body"
I have to point out that the grk doesn't say "creature" but "creation" in all the above verses. And all interpretations I have read so far is that it means the whole creation, everything that has been created, the whole world, land, living beings, everything.
Which leaves me to think that the creation which is now in decay/corruption/wear will be libarated at that time, probably meaning that everything will be in a glorified stable condition in the new earth we will be living on. And I believe that "the blood and flesh" is for people, not for the rest of material creation.
About "deification" I don't want to say any opinion, I am very sceptical about it, This is actually something it is never discussed in my church.
God Bless.
'arche' = 'something that was in the beginning: a first principle; a substance or primal element; an actuating principle (as a cause). If we take the first meaning of 'something having a beginning', then your suggestion might be valid. If, as 'an actuating principal - a causation', then we read the verse as, 'These things saith the Amen.the One to cause or initiate all of God's Creation'; that Jesus Himself wasn't God's first Creation, but the cause or reason for creation, i.e. the 'He Who initiated the beginning of creation', being the 'Reason for creation's beginning'.
'proto-tokos' = 'first-to bring forth'. Here, in Colossians 1:15,18, Jesus is seen as both the "firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead". I see 'firstborn' here, not with a biological view, but in Christ's position; or else, He was certainly not the 'firstborn from the dead', as some have been brought to life from the dead prior to His Resurrection. So, it's best to read these verses as Jesus' station & rank that remains, as always, above every human being & all of creation, whether in their creation, birth or death. And as a side-note, we must be aware that the JW conveniently changes 'prototokos' to 'protokitises': from 'first to bring forth' to 'first to be created': which of course supports the idea that Jesus was a created Being.
You said '(i.e. that Jesus was also a created Being) cannot also be the One 'through' Whom God created all things".
Based in your words the King James Version should or must change what is written in Hebrews 1:1-3, as follow:
1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us BY HIS SON, whom GOD hath appointed heir of all things, by WHOM also He -GOD- made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of GOD's Glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of GOD's Person-the Word is GOD-, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power(Matt.28:18), when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Chris, see,
based in the everlasting Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, YOUR TESTIMONY of my Lord JESUS is false, it is fake.
Be careful, because even my Lord JESUS left very clear saying that "out of the heart proceed false witness, and blasphemies, evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts:
Be careful or else get ready
Thank you for your explanation. For me what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD. As is written, the witness of GOD is greater: this is the witness of GOD which He hath testified of His Son. Hebrews 1:8 - Unto the Son GOD saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the Sceptre of thy kingdom.
Your second question: "If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die?" There are varying beliefs about Jesus' position in Heaven prior to His incarnation. I rather simply accept John 1:1-18, John 14:10,11, John 16:27,28, 1 John 5:7, that Jesus came forth from God. Did He come out as a Divine Being in the presence of God, to be made a human for the sake of death, or did God take His Own Word & give Him flesh for this very purpose? We don't have a problem of God sending out His Spirit & the Spirit's indwelling in every believer (can He even be dissected?), but to send His Word out, clothe Him in a body, unnerves many.
"How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted...How can God die?" God is Spirit - He is Immortal - He can never die. No one, having a spirit from God, can die - the body will perish, but who can destroy the spirit which cannot be touched by age or man's devices? But if the immortal is given a body, as Jesus received, or even as we also have to house our spirits, then the body will die but the spirit lives on. Can God take on flesh? A mystery no human can fully fathom, but truly "a body hast thou prepared me" ( Hebrews 10:5-7, taken from Psalm 40:6-8). So Jesus could be tempted & could die whilst in the body, and so in His complete identification with sinful men in need of salvation, Philippians 2:6-8 reminds us:
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." "thought it not robbery" = Jesus didn't grasp onto/retain His equality with God, but 'emptied Himself' ('ekenosen'), laying aside His Glory, to become a Man, obedient to death that which was the Father's Plan.
On John 1:1-10.
I read your views on this when I got in from work late Friday night.
I had to do some catching up as I fell behind on my following.
I believe Chris and Giannis covered much on this topic far better than I would be able to.
What I did notice is there is some disparity in the usage of the Greek between you and them that is vital to understanding the truth in which you search.
However, I was just wanted to add something, if it haven't already been touched on.
Just to clear up my sloppy reply last night I was trying to not only showcase the Trinity in presented in the Gospel of John and 1 John 1. but to highlight words in the text that "describes" a being rather than focusing on "In the beginning"
I am 100 percent sure that John is not talking about Christ ministry as the beginning here.
However, if I gave you that it still doesn't settle the fact that the scripture doesn't only say "and the Word was with God," It says "AND THE WORD WAS GOD".
Verse 2 describes a time and location.
The same was IN THE BEGINNING "WITH GOD".
There is also verse 4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
When we are born again we become one with Christ by the Spirit.
This is a everlasting Spirit! The "Spirit of God"
We have a birth date.
The Spirit of God does not.
The Spirit of God is life and Christ was sent from God to give us life and make us sons of God!
Our bodies are hardware. Our life is software. Christ proceeded from the Father and took on a body/hardware and filled it with a preexisting Spirit that has NO beginning.
We have been quickened by a life giving Spirit that has NO beginning.
It seems in your replies you are focusing on verses that presents Jesus Humanity.
God bless
Thanks again, I feel I am among the minority on this and I am grateful that people on this site are willing to discuss it. As I said to Chris "in the beginning" what John is referring to makes a big difference in understanding. If it is the Genesis creation or if it is the beginning of Jesus's ministry when He was anointed with the Holy Spirit. I agree with you the Spirit of God the Holy Spirit is eternal. God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and has always been.
If we look at 1 John 1:1 this is clearly the beginning of Jesus ministry, John says they have heard, they have seen with their eyes, they saw and touch Him with their hands, this is clearly not the Genesis creation beginning but Jesus's ministry. To me 1 John 1:1 does not show a trinity.
The word of God that is applied to Jesus is only once in the Bible and it was in Revelation 19:3 it was his name was called; Jesus was the word of God in the flesh God was manifested in Jesus but that does not mean Jesus preexisted His birth. I am still praying and studying for the truth, I to once believed Jesus preexisted but to many Scriptures do not agree.
Like Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Why are they two different things here?
Thanks again.
God bless,
RLW
I don't believe anyone see the Trinity in 1 John 1:1 by itself but I do believe it's seen in 1 John 1:1-7 and John 1:10 without having to add or take away from Scripture.
And, 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" was dealt with between you and others.
However the first part of that verse "That which was from the beginning". Is easily seen that this portion of scripture takes a person (Jesus) and associates him with a beginning as mentioned in John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD.
Jn 1:10. He was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not.
it's clear Jesus existed before his earthly ministry.
Are you going into your studies without a predetermined position?
Ronald with all due respect your passion and study in this seems to be to exterminate the view rather search to see if it is any truth to it.
I believe in what John 1:1 says that line up with scriptures from Genesis 1:1 on through Revelation.
Thanks Brother and I pray that God bless you in your journey as you continue in your studies.
Part one
I thank you so much for discussing this and thank you Giannis. I am not the best at explaining my understanding.
I know John 1:1 we see it differently but what beginning makes the difference, it was the word of God in Jesus as Jesus never said it was His words but the Father's words, and God was manifested in Jesus John 1:14 2 Corinthians 5:19. In Colossians as well as Ephesians that is similar My understanding Paul is talking about the risen Christ as faith in Christ, redemption that is in Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, we are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, the risen Jesus.
I read what you replied to Momsage on this and I hope you are not considering me in the Gnostic camp. My understanding comes totally from Scripture and the Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in Scripture, it was hundreds of years after the deaths of the apostles, as in Matthew 28:19 is taken as the Trinity and many churches abide by this today, but nowhere in Scripture do we see anyone baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, what we see is only in the name of Jesus?
I know you will not agree but to say Jesus is God this verse stands out to me 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
See part 2
Part 2
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20 Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22 Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10 Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30 Romans 15:6 1 Corinthians 8:6 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 3:14 Ephesians 4:6 Colossians 1:3 1 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34 John 14:28 John 17:3 John 20:17 Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
God bless,
RLW
Col 1:16, "For BY HIM were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created BY HIM, and for him:"
The grk for that "by him" is "en auto". The precise meaning of that is "in him". But here it takes the meaning "by him". That is why at the end of the verse Paul repeats :... created BY HIM (in grk di'autou), ..." The right translation of "di'autou" is "through him". So Paul uses both "in Him" and "through Him" for the same thing. He actually means "by Him"
Also see verse 14, "IN WHOM (in grk en o) we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:".
Why does Paul say "in whom" and not "by whom" or "from whom" or "through whom?"
See verse 20, "And, having made peace THROUGH(dia) the blood of his cross, BY HIM(di'autou) to reconcile all things unto himself; BY HIM(di'autou), I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven". As before in both cases the right translation is "through Him"
So again although Paul talks about the same thing, in verse 14 he says "in whom" and in verse 20 he says "through Him", in both verses meaning "by Him"
Probably when Paul is using the phrase "in Him", he means that everything takes place "in Jesus", which means that everything initiates and finishes inside Him who is the Alpha and the Omega, the Begining and the End of everything. Paul is actually very hard to understand sometimes, even by people of his time. GBU
"Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?" 2 Corinthians 11:29 KJV
Paul's meditations in the churches of God.
Please read the first paragraph as follows:
Fellowship of God with Man is inshrined in heaven as a memorial. In Re.5:6 we have a visual transcription of the will of God and it shall never change. There must a body, is it not? The body of four and twenty elders is one. The body has its glory ordained by God."But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body." (1 Co.15:38-41). Consequently we see the four beasts and they are reflecting the glory of God and setting his Son as the firstborn of all creation: it gives us one beast having the face of a man. God created man 'in our image', and we have the last Adam represented. According to the will of God 'Let them have dominion,' refers to Adam and three beasts representing His creation.
Fellowship of God with Man is inshrined in heaven as a memorial. In Re.5:6 we have a visual transcription of the will of God and it shall never change. There must a body, is it not? The body of four and twenty elders is one. There is also another body of the four beasts and they are reflecting the glory of God and setting his Son as the firstborn of all creation gives us one beast having the face of a man. God created man 'in our image', and we have the last Adam represented. According to the will of God 'Let them have dominion,' refers to Adam and three beasts representing His creation.
Secondly theSpirit aspect: "And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."(Re.4:5). Thirdly we have the Lamb who 'prevailed to open the book' with seven seals, and he was found worthy to set judgement in motion. As an overcomer he represents the soul, or as head of the church. Body Spirit and Soul constitute Trinity as a memorial in heaven.
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them (Ge.1:27)" defines Trinity:The Word made flesh was continuation of the Spirit of Christ with which he could be deemed the Spiritual Rock (1 Co.10:4). For this reason he could say," Jesus said to the Jews, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.(John8:58-NKJV)."
Symbolism of the rock, water and the slain Lamb are sustained no matter where, whether in heaven or on earth the word is established eternally.
When we speak of human likeness his body spirit and soul gives Trinity a template for every believer. In creating man in 'our likeness' body spirit and soul of man correspond with Trinity.
By principle of Similitude heaven and earth are set on a single standard. The Son upholds all things 'by the word of his power' similarly he reconciles all men to his Father in him.
(See under J-Jesus his deity)
It is set in a series of parables. In the parables of Job one might think of the Socratic dialogue as nearest, and it is search for truth as its core value. The Bible clearly declares no man may question God and wrest a meaning by force or by arguments. "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?(Is.45:9). We find Abraham interceding with God with regards to the imminent judgment over Sodom. He asks, "And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" Ge.18:17-33).
Truth is the only basis that 'still small voice' as in the case of Elijah, plays a crucial role in the parables of Job. Job uses a parable, which in the parlance of the Spirit is to instruct us the depths and riches we have in the eternal God.
For example what is the confidence of Job? "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:(19:25)" How do we reconcile this idea 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth' (Is.55:8-9) with our thoughts ? Truth in our heart is the only medium of instruction. The Spirit has set the Book of Job with this in mind as a series of parables.
Parables are clothed with allusions to the natural world so these are direct confrontation of two worlds of the flesh and the Spirit.
Parables are to be understood as introduction 'How To Do the Will of My Father in some easy lessons' could well be the by-line to the whole body of Parables. Key to understand him is to do the will of God the Father," If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself ( John 7:17)."
It is said that those of the Oneness Pentacostal camp never refer to themselves as "modalists"; and in reality the term "Trinity" although the best description we have for God being represented by three different entities as it were along with any other term has its limitations. As with any other issue; when there is error involved there is always a deeper reason as well as associated other spurious elements of doctrine involved. I am writing believing in; more or less the Trinitarian approach and using scriptures to support this concept which I will attempt to do in further postings; provided that incoming comments are something the Lord leads me to respond to and that it is edifying to involve myself is such an undertaking.
The first thing I feel obligated to respond to is the charge by those such as Jino Jennings that those of my persuasion believe in multiple gods or 3 different dieties. That by no means is what I and others believe. I will also give positive affirmation where praise is due; the focus on holiness which is mandated by those in that camp and knowledge of scripture; particularly in the Old Testament helps build knowledge. He and others in that type of church also tend to have elders read scriptures along with their commentary and also preach from time to time. Such involvement would be helpful in any church to some extent as scripturally the gift of elder is basically synonymous with a pastor and there should be shared responsibilities in a church rather than the imbalance we sometimes see when a head pastor tries to fly solo. There is; however a tendancy among that denomination of shouting and appearing to "lord it over" people; shouting and other "signs" such as tongues and uncontrollable behaviors that are often part of a typical service. An emphasis on the necessity of speaking in tongues to be saved was a challenge given to me over 30 years ago which goes against 1 Corinthians 12:30
I have a question for all fellow christians who do not consider that Jesus is God.(hello Ronald, I saw your comment and I was reminded of something I was thinking lately.)
Let me do an introduction before going to my point. When we talk with people from the Orthodox church who often pray to saints or to Mary Jesus' mother, we ask them how is it possible that they hear you all, millions and millions of you, they are not Gods after all. So many millions of people pray to Mary, how is she able to hear them all and, as they claim, she often responds. She is not God, only God can do that.
So I come to what I want to say. Somewhere in NT, Jesus says that when two or more are gathered in His name then He is there among them. How is that possible if Jesus is not God. Because at the same time I believe thousands of congregations take place in the whole world. To do such a thing one must have divine properties. He also said somewhere that when we ask something in His name then He will do that. How can He hear millions of prayers simultaneously if He is not God.
Expecting for your opinion.
So the claim to Christ's Divinity is not an issue after His Birth, Life & Ministry, rather, the issue is even before His Birth to lay down His Life. I consider John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down HIS life for his friends" and 1 John 3:16, "Hereby perceive we the love (of God), because he laid down HIS life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." (Noting, that "of God" is in italics, thus not in the original). And from these verses, I ask, 'are we seeing simply Christ's Love for all that caused Him to lay down His Life in sacrifice, or are we also seeing God's Love for all in bringing forth a Son for the purpose of providing the one & only Sacrifice?'
It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation.
Very good point here Brother Christ.
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 20:28.
This love was displayed to us while we were yet sinners.
God bless
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks for your reply to my comment.
I will keep it short since we have had those discussions before and we know what each one of us believe.
I noticed that you believe that when a human person receives the fullness of the Spirit somehow they aquire divine characteristics as if though they are Gods themselves. ie omnipresence, speak all languages, hear millions of people simultaneously. Well there are some churches that actually believe that we will become sort of Gods. The Ortodox church is one of those.
Also Jema (why is she gone? I actually liked very much her encouraging comments,I will miss them) in her reply to me said that we will become something sort of Gods when we will be dressed up with our spiritual body.
Although there isn't any revelation from God about the state we will be in Heaven, I still find it very hard to believe that. If that was true then even angels would had been sort of Gods. Well I don't know Richard so I am going to put my hand on my mouth and keep silent. GBU