Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
THE BEST PROTECTION AGAINST THE DARKNESS OF ERROR IS THE LIGHT OF TRUTH."
should the words "do not pronounce judgment before the time" keep us from identifying false teachers or from naming them?
I don't think so. "Don't pronounce judgment before the time" means "Don't do what only Christ can do at that last day - on the day of judgment." Don't presume to know the heart like Jesus will know the heart on that day. Only Christ "will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart."
But for now, our job is indeed to do mouth judgment, writing judgment, behavior judgment - not a heart judgment, but mouth and writing and behavior judgment. When a mouth speaks unbiblical, destructive teaching, when a blog or an article or a book publishes unbiblical and destructive teaching, when a body - a human body, a physical body - behaves with unbiblical and destructive behavior, in all these cases, we are to be discerning.
And according to Ephesians 5:11 we are to expose the error. "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them." "Censure them; show them to be wrong" is what the word elegch means.
So let's begin with Jesus. Matthew 7:15: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." And the word beware means all of us should be alert, but especially shepherds, to identify not just false teaching, but false teachers, whose ways are subtle. They're clothing themselves with lamb's wool while they're wolves.
And Paul used the same Greek word for beware in Acts 20:28-29 when he said, "Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. . . . I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock."
"IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE FLOCK, WE SHOULD EXPOSE FALSE TEACHERS AND MINIMIZE THE SPREAD OF THE GANGRENE."
Jesus used the same word again in Matthew 16:6, but he got more specific: "Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Paul had the same kind of group in mind and the same kind of error in mind in Philippians 3:2 and 3:18: "Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh." And then verse 18:
"For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ." Then in Romans 16:17, he warned, "Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them."
To avoid them, you have to know who they are. You can't avoid somebody if you don't know who they are. This idea of identifying and avoiding shows up in
1 Corinthians 5:11;
2 Thessalonians 3:6,
2 Thessalonians 3:14;
2 Timothy 3:5;
2 John 1:10.
In other words, Christians, and shepherds in particular, should be discerning and alert to behavior and teaching that dishonors Christ and destroys people - and not treat it in a casual or harmless way.
And then in 1 Timothy 5:19-20, Paul went beyond just "avoid them" to "rebuke them publicly." So, speaking of elders who persist in error, he said, "Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin" - and that can be sin of false doctrine or sin of evil behavior, anyone who does not accept correction - "rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.."
And then Paul went on and actually named destructive false teachers:
"Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me" 2 Timothy 4:10.
You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes" 2 Timothy 1:15.
"By rejecting this [faith and a good conscience], some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander" 1 Timothy 1:19-20.
"Their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus" ( 2 Timothy 2:17).
Paul names at least six false teachers that the church should watch out for.
So, I infer from Jesus and Paul and Luke and John that false teaching and destructive behavior are present dangers in this fallen world for the church. And all of us - especially shepherds, pastors - should be alert and discerning to identify and, in appropriate ways, expose. In order to protect the flock, we should expose them and minimize the spread of the gangrene (as Paul calls it).
In musical circles; oftentimes the dumbing down to fit the cookie cutter repeated musical themes twice; a brief refrain; quiet and finale of nebulous spiritual consistency is just as much an issue. What is showed off usually is everything BUT musical talent (glamour; glitz; hypnotic repetition; endless shallow romantic love themes indistinguishable from worldly desire). This underplaying also offends God where we are to put the best expression into our musical gifts for His glory. Those who are gifted musically that I tend to obsess on oftentimes are not Christians; but with acoustic or folk music genres I can perhaps safely listen and appreciate them for musical talent without idolizing them. In this style music old "spirituals" are often sung here and there that have more Biblical content than those the Christian industry is pandering (ok that's it for that rant).
Those who espouse lies are coming out it seems; the truth always reveals itself. Truth be told as I have stated elsewhere there always has to be some truth with any effective lies or liars; and scripture still can prick hearts despite bad preachers. The general apostasy these days means that more than ever we can't put stock in any human being. Those who appear to have been in the faith and fall away ultimately aren't saved as I see scripture; but since we can't foresee these things (although the signs of bad fruit should awake our discerning souls) we need to be prepared as to not let a root of bitterness for instance tempt us to abandon the faith ourselves when other fall.
My belief is that lack of spiritual discernment is a primary issue here. How else can demonic spiritual manifestations and doctrines be so readily accepted? Either choosing to believe any manifestation as being from God or not believe at all in the miraculous end up being two extremes we can fall into. As Ecclesiastes states weeping is better than laughter for the soul; and fear of God the beginning of wisdom.
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
Luke 16:19-31 was a common PARABLE of that time. Jesus was using it as a TEACHING lesson. And, by the way, this Lazarus in the story is not the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.
In no way, was Jesus saying the dead suffer in a state of torment. Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!
The fire that shall never be quenched means it is irreversible. Look at the remains of sodom and Gomorrah that can be seen today. There are outlines of the buildings in the area near the Dead Sea. Archeological proof of the wrath of God.
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and its outlying towns have been a permanent destruction. This is an object lesson for us.
Mark 9:43
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
Again , this verse that you listed does not speak of the soul burning for eternity.
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matt 5:29 KJV.
Hell is a finality. It's the end of the road. The "whole body" is the body along with the soul.
Hi Chris, This verse you mentioned does not speak of the soul's eternal burning. It speaks of destruction.
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
Matthew 5:22
Hell fire is the same thing as destruction. For example, if my house were on fire, it would destroyed. And, once it burns down, there would be nothing left but smoke rising from the debris.
30And the times of this ignorance GOD winked at;but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because He hath appointed a Day,in the which He will Judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto ALL men,in that He hath raised him from the dead.
Mat.28:18-And JESUS came and spake unto them,saying,All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Luke 10:19-20
19Behold,I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,and over ALL the power of the enemy:and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not,that the spirits are subject unto you;but rather rejoice,because your names are written in heaven.
Joel 2:1-11
1Blow the trumpet in Zion,sound an alarm in my holy mountain:let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:the Lord's Day comes...
2A Day of darkness and of gloominess,a Day of clouds and of thick darkness...a great people and a strong there has not been ever the like,neither shall be any more after it...
3A fire devoures before them;and behind them a flame burns:the land is as the garden of Eden before them,and behind them a desolate wilderness...
5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoures the stubble,as a strong people set in battle array.
6Before their face the people shall be much pained...
7They shall run like mighty men;they shall climb the wall like men of war;and they shall march every one on his ways,and they shall not break their ranks:
8...and when they fall upon the sword,they shall not be wounded.
9They shall run to and fro in the city;they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses;they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10The earth shall quake before them...
11And the Lord shall utter His voice before His army:His camp is very great:He is strong that executes His Word:the Day of the Lord is great,very terrible;and who can abide it?
You hit the nail when you said. "we need to look through spiritual eyes and not always focus on who speaks the loudest or most eloquently or makes the rules."
I must admit that it is very hard to distinguish between personality traits and spiritual gifts. Today, the church has borrowed some worldly principles, qualities, and traits instead of relying on spiritual gifts. So many so-called Christian leaders and "celebrities" are not even born again, but they are able to hide behind their natural talents and play an influent role in the body of Christ. Unfortunately, it is hard sometimes to distinguish between them.
Thank you Shabbat Keeper for coming back to me. I'll respond to your three recent posts to me with my one here.
Firstly, on the name 'Gehenna', otherwise called the "Valley of Hinnom", the Encyclopaedia definition is quite correct about the purpose why that area was set aside. It was indeed a place for the burning of refuse & the dead. And yes, it meant that they were all annihilated - no more evidence except dust & ashes. So, it can mean 'annihilation', but Gehenna can also mean 'a place of burning where the fires are never quenched'. And we know that the body is disposed of there, but what about the immaterial parts of man that remains accountable to God? And you also referenced a verse I quoted in Matthew 10:28. Taken on its own, that verse could well support your belief of a complete extermination of body, soul & spirit.
But it was for that very reason that I gave you the other verses to look up & consider. Not only was Matthew 10:28 Jesus' Words, but also Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15. You didn't take these into account. And we know, as I trust you are conversant, that when we deal with a topic or a doctrine from the Bible, we need to take in all the references that deal specifically with it. Unfortunately, our natural human instinct is to accept only those that we find palatable or in agreement with, thus distorting the teaching from the Word.
So, if you would care to look at those other verses & see how they affect your understanding of Matthew 10:28, I would be very interested. It's only when we consider all verses on a subject, can we get a fuller picture of it meaning & its implications. However, sometimes there aren't too many verses to help us learn about the subject - in such cases we can't force a teaching by them & just leave the subject open. Yet, not so with these important doctrines of the Deity of Christ & human existence & punishment after death.
John having given a warning of false teachers, John returns to the theme of this section.
Believers are to Love one another.
It's not Eros: romantic, passionate love.
It's not Philia: intimate, authentic friendship.
It's Agape. love that involves selflessness and compassion which the Spirit causes us to be totally given over to.
It's supernatural Love that the Holyspirit puts in our heart toward each other.
What makes this degree of Love "Agape" special is that it is directed! God causes this degree of Love to be aimed towards one another. When we were of the world, we loved darkness. ( John 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men "LOVED" darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. "Agape is used here as well. Notice where it's directed. "DARKNESS"
Agape towards the Brothern is a fruit, not a command. Only the Spirit of God can enable us to extend this degree of love to others.
Verse 8, He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Verses 9-13.
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Verse 16.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Verses 20-21.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Philippians 1:9 states; "And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all JUDGMENT;
Here I believe Judgment is speaking of discernment.
Part 1.
Something to notice about 1 John 2 and 1 John 4. In 1 John when you study it carefully, you see John using the contrast of loving your brother "which is hating your brother" to illustrate the heart of nonbelievers who "say" they love God. John is saying if you don't love your brother, you don't love God!
Look at verse 2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
It all begins in Bethlehem! Christ was born in Bethlehem. It's the incarnation is where we begin!
Calvary and the Garden tomb are meaningless unless he is who he claims to be. God in the flesh! 1 Timothy 3:16.
One way you can determine the false teacher is he will deny the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and behind this doctrine and the lack of the Spirit, he will have no love for the Brothern. This is the Spirit of the Antichrist.
John has much to say about the deity of Christ. John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...
1 John he has a lot to say about the Antichrist in the world.
These false teachers appeals to the flesh! We have the Spirit of Christ which protects us.
Verse 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. These false teachers intellectually appeal to the world through their fleshly minds.
Verse 5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
God's children "WILL" respond to God's word.
Verse 7, Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
John having given a warning of false teachers, John returns to the theme of this section.
We interpret the scripture as literal as we can unless prompt by perhaps words that hint not to. such as Revelation 16:13. And I saw three unclean spirits "like frogs" come out of the mouth of the dragon, ( These are not frogs, they are like frogs.)
Often you can go back to the Old Testament or other places for clarity in these symbols. perhaps the second plague that God sent upon Egypt was that of frogs. The Egyptians found the frogs to be so obnoxious that Pharaoh entreated Moses to remove all the frogs. And these frogs covered the whole land.
These evil spirits coming out of the mouth of this unholy trinity may be what is spoken and persuaded of them. look at the preceding verse.
(For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.) "Which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world" means this covers the whole word.
I could only imagine in mind what it is that has caused you this grief. I dare not intrude into your own personal affairs, but it's recognizable as something that is close to my heart. So, I sympathize with you, as I too have sought for answers, and much like you, that door remains shut. Yet in my own personal pursuit to cut off from my life things that I may see as a hindrance, God has given much peace. My prayer for you is that GOD would give you that same peace. Knowing that all things work together for good to them who love God, and you, who are called according to His purpose. May you be strengthen in your inner man, and may the light of our glorious Savior shine down upon you. In Jesus name
It has been said that God will; in general either indicate a yes; no or later as to His answers to prayer. Lately I have recognized doors closing repeatedly in attempting to extricate myself from my current living situation with communication not being received; or possibilities ending up in dead ends. If only we could be so tenacious when God indicates a yes to our prayers as we can be seeking our own will when wanting things our way; or out of sync with God's timing in bringing a clear answer to our requests.
Often in relationships conflict leads us to doubt God's response favoring our petitions. Most likely this indicates indeed He is working in the situation; as the spiritual resistance is bound to occur from the enemy when the Lord is planning to give us favor in a certain area. As to HOW God intends to answer things; it is not in the mind of natural man to desire to show unconditional love to unreasonable people which later on bears fruit if we persevere. It is also inconceivable to understand how God can bring out of death and other chaos in life peace beyond understanding; using it to wake others up to eternal truths; for instance. This is a profound mystery; we surely do not understand how God uses evil for His purposes; but ultimately all rewards we receive in glory are due to sacrifice and suffering while here on earth.
Perseverance brings great reward and this is certainly true with prayer. Oftentimes it seems answers come long after we have forgotten the request; or even the situation and individuals involved with a salvation as one example. We should be equally open to recognizing the answered prayers of others and inform them of such to bring rejoicing when they come to pass. Many times we also cease striving for someone when something appears to be answered; such as with one family member saved and not striving in prayer for more. We need to be open to whom; how; when and where to pray in the Spirit.
1 Timothy 4:1 Continuing my thought on this subject which is not one subject in particular, but has to do with what's written in 1Tim 4:11."Now the Spirit speaks" CLEARLY "that in the latter times". Speaking of the last days. My focus is mainly on the part of the verse that says "giving heed to seducing spirits". I feel that is probably the most important part of the verse, and I'd like to start with a question, and my question is "What are we giving heed to"? To heed, or give your attention to. We can fight off a lot of things, and be totally convinced in our minds, that we have it altogether, but there's always something that the devil knows about us, that triggers us. I wrote in my last comment how we don't battle with the same things. Your struggle, or fight in this could look completely different than mine, but we're both fighting the same enemy. The devil. That's important to understand. For one, it helps us to be sensitive to others, and not to always expect others to be at the same level as we are spiritually. One could be battling with anger, and another unforgiveness, we just don't know, but all in all the one causing the havoc in our individual lives is the devil. The reason why a person struggles with these things is because they're giving their attention to something that is ungodly, or unfavorable to the LORD. They've offended God, and have not sought God in repentance. They've given heed to, or have allowed themselves to be swallowed up by that very thing they've given their attention to. This is my main point that I'm wanting to make, and that is, because they've done this, they are now bound, they've given heed, and are now in the grip of Satan. I would like to continue on this subject, but one thing I want to point out is we must keep the door of our heart shut to things which are offensive to GOD. Recognizing the difference between light, and darkness. Not allowing the devil a foot. The saying is true "Give the devil a foot and he'll take a mile."
Our current situation is grave, but not over whelming; because our GOD is sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Jeremiah waited 10 days, Daniel waited 21 days. We Saints shall wait patiently for the LORD and HIS answer.
May we be faithful in our SAVIOR, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, as we wait. We are called to be fruitful in our carrying out HIS desire for us. To make disciples Matthew 28: 18-20; to pray for those in authority 1 Timothy 2:1-3; submit ourselves to GOD and resist the devil James 4: 7, 8.
GOD to shine HIS face on all the saints and bless us that we may also be a
If the church as a whole took Jesus' words more seriously, our voice would be more respected in the world. When we neglect to address grievous sins in the church, we appear to take sin lightly. Skeptics can't respect our claim to honor the Bible as God's Word while we ignore those of our number who are overtly disobeying it.
GOD GIVES US HIS SPIRIT TO PERFORM WHAT WE CAN'T DO IN THE FLESH. AND THIS IS HOW WE KNOW HE IS IN US.
1 John 6:13.
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
We use Brothern to loosely today. Everyone amongst us is not a Brother or a Sister!
Look at the example Jesus gives in Matthew 12:47-50.
"Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren.
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Romans 12:3 says not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
We all have flaws and we're all of one body ministering by the same Spirit, having gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us by "THE GIFT" (Christ Spirit.) We are to exercise those gifts by the power of Christ Spirit.
We are to Love one another; I've declared that on this site since I've been on it using John 13:34-35 as a springboard.
Also, 1 John 4:20-21 and Matthew 7:15-16.
We shall be known by our fruit, not our gifts!
CAN YOU GENERATE THIS ON YOUR OWN?
Love amongst the brothern is not partial.
It's not determined by race, wealth, political parties, Gender, status in the church, or one's eschatology.
Love at its highest level is Agape. It's caused by the Holyspirit that knits us as one. It's to be totally given over to.
I've seen where one says he have the gift of discernment but yet he shuns other Brothern.
If you have an issue with a brother, you restore him. Galatians 6:1-4.
We must look out for each other. James 5:20 says, "Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." Confrontation may be difficult, but it is not loving to allow a professing Christian to continue in a sin that will bring God's consequences upon him.
Of course, I do not mind, you have always treated me with respect and care.
What John 11:25-26 means to me. Jesus is the resurrection, His perfect life when He died on the cross and was buried in a tomb death could not hold Him. To me, it is the gospel, the simplicity of Jesus Christ, the message of salvation, and our hope in eternal life. Even if we die, we who believe in Jesus Christ will live as we see in John 5:29 the resurrection of life.
We sleep in death, but we have the promise of eternal life, we will never die. Those of the wicked and lost will face the second death, the permanent death of no return. As Jesus asked Martha do you believe this, regardless of what we face and the struggles and doubts we have in this world we go through in this fleshly body, all of our hope and trust must be in Jesus, who is the truth, the light, and what He said will come to be.
Carleton, When I speak of demonic influence, I mean that literally!! I'm not name calling. Yes, I believe in that and I believe in demons also. There is no Holy kiss for that person!! This Holy kiss of acceptance is to and for the Brothern.
Romans 12:9 says Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Abhor means to detest, or to feel abhorrence of; hate; dislike intensely.
When someone doesn't hold the truth that's one thing, but when someone stands in the way of the preaching of the cross of Christ that's another and it's evil. That's not a brother.
Look at Paul in Philippians 3:2. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Paul calls them the enemies of the cross of Christ. And he says to MARK them! Philippians 3:17-19.
How do you reconcile these scriptures?
1 Corinthians 5:6-13.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
Listen to Paul in Titus 2:15. To rebuke someone is to admonish or convict. convince one of a fault. "This is from brother to Brother. Him you kiss, not an enemy of the cross of Christ.
We have those amongst us that promote a legalistic means of Justification that the scriptures identifies them as "Enemies of the cross of Christ." The scripture doesn't say greet them with an Holy kiss. In fact it says "Mark them which walk so"
However atleast they promote righteous living! They're just not justified before God in their efforts without a rebirth.
This person here in question, for the past three years or so doesn't promote righteous living at all! And they don't promote the acceptance of the work of Christ on the Cross as THE means for salvation! Would you say he's a Brother?
I have waited to respond to something you said in this post for this last week seeking guidance on what to ask you.
So, I will venture here to do so. Please understand, I am not attacking you here. I just want to understand your view better.
You said that you are deeply offended when people say "God the Son". I would like you to explain why it offends you so much?
Do you believe that Jesus is God? Do you worship Him as God or as a Man?
Do you worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
What do you believe about the Godhead?
I would certainly appreciate your answers to these questions and what Scriptures you use to support your views.
As, you probably know, I believe the Trinitarian doctrine is the best explanation of what the Scriptures reveal about the Godhead. But I am trying to understand why people believe otherwise and what Scriptures they use to support their beliefs.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
THE BEST PROTECTION AGAINST THE DARKNESS OF ERROR IS THE LIGHT OF TRUTH."
should the words "do not pronounce judgment before the time" keep us from identifying false teachers or from naming them?
I don't think so. "Don't pronounce judgment before the time" means "Don't do what only Christ can do at that last day - on the day of judgment." Don't presume to know the heart like Jesus will know the heart on that day. Only Christ "will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart."
But for now, our job is indeed to do mouth judgment, writing judgment, behavior judgment - not a heart judgment, but mouth and writing and behavior judgment. When a mouth speaks unbiblical, destructive teaching, when a blog or an article or a book publishes unbiblical and destructive teaching, when a body - a human body, a physical body - behaves with unbiblical and destructive behavior, in all these cases, we are to be discerning.
And according to Ephesians 5:11 we are to expose the error. "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them." "Censure them; show them to be wrong" is what the word elegch means.
God bless
So let's begin with Jesus. Matthew 7:15: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." And the word beware means all of us should be alert, but especially shepherds, to identify not just false teaching, but false teachers, whose ways are subtle. They're clothing themselves with lamb's wool while they're wolves.
And Paul used the same Greek word for beware in Acts 20:28-29 when he said, "Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. . . . I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock."
"IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE FLOCK, WE SHOULD EXPOSE FALSE TEACHERS AND MINIMIZE THE SPREAD OF THE GANGRENE."
Jesus used the same word again in Matthew 16:6, but he got more specific: "Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Paul had the same kind of group in mind and the same kind of error in mind in Philippians 3:2 and 3:18: "Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh." And then verse 18:
"For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ." Then in Romans 16:17, he warned, "Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them."
BEWARE OF THE WOLVES.
God bless.
To avoid them, you have to know who they are. You can't avoid somebody if you don't know who they are. This idea of identifying and avoiding shows up in
1 Corinthians 5:11;
2 Thessalonians 3:6,
2 Thessalonians 3:14;
2 Timothy 3:5;
2 John 1:10.
In other words, Christians, and shepherds in particular, should be discerning and alert to behavior and teaching that dishonors Christ and destroys people - and not treat it in a casual or harmless way.
And then in 1 Timothy 5:19-20, Paul went beyond just "avoid them" to "rebuke them publicly." So, speaking of elders who persist in error, he said, "Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin" - and that can be sin of false doctrine or sin of evil behavior, anyone who does not accept correction - "rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.."
And then Paul went on and actually named destructive false teachers:
"Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me" 2 Timothy 4:10.
You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes" 2 Timothy 1:15.
"By rejecting this [faith and a good conscience], some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander" 1 Timothy 1:19-20.
"Their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus" ( 2 Timothy 2:17).
Paul names at least six false teachers that the church should watch out for.
So, I infer from Jesus and Paul and Luke and John that false teaching and destructive behavior are present dangers in this fallen world for the church. And all of us - especially shepherds, pastors - should be alert and discerning to identify and, in appropriate ways, expose. In order to protect the flock, we should expose them and minimize the spread of the gangrene (as Paul calls it).
AVOID, REBUKE, AND CALL OUT.
God bless
Those who espouse lies are coming out it seems; the truth always reveals itself. Truth be told as I have stated elsewhere there always has to be some truth with any effective lies or liars; and scripture still can prick hearts despite bad preachers. The general apostasy these days means that more than ever we can't put stock in any human being. Those who appear to have been in the faith and fall away ultimately aren't saved as I see scripture; but since we can't foresee these things (although the signs of bad fruit should awake our discerning souls) we need to be prepared as to not let a root of bitterness for instance tempt us to abandon the faith ourselves when other fall.
My belief is that lack of spiritual discernment is a primary issue here. How else can demonic spiritual manifestations and doctrines be so readily accepted? Either choosing to believe any manifestation as being from God or not believe at all in the miraculous end up being two extremes we can fall into. As Ecclesiastes states weeping is better than laughter for the soul; and fear of God the beginning of wisdom.
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
God bless you.
Luke 16:19-31 was a common PARABLE of that time. Jesus was using it as a TEACHING lesson. And, by the way, this Lazarus in the story is not the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.
In no way, was Jesus saying the dead suffer in a state of torment. Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!
The fire that shall never be quenched means it is irreversible. Look at the remains of sodom and Gomorrah that can be seen today. There are outlines of the buildings in the area near the Dead Sea. Archeological proof of the wrath of God.
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and its outlying towns have been a permanent destruction. This is an object lesson for us.
Mark 9:43
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
Again , this verse that you listed does not speak of the soul burning for eternity.
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matt 5:29 KJV.
Hell is a finality. It's the end of the road. The "whole body" is the body along with the soul.
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
Matthew 5:22
Hell fire is the same thing as destruction. For example, if my house were on fire, it would destroyed. And, once it burns down, there would be nothing left but smoke rising from the debris.
30And the times of this ignorance GOD winked at;but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because He hath appointed a Day,in the which He will Judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto ALL men,in that He hath raised him from the dead.
Mat.28:18-And JESUS came and spake unto them,saying,All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Luke 10:19-20
19Behold,I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,and over ALL the power of the enemy:and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not,that the spirits are subject unto you;but rather rejoice,because your names are written in heaven.
Joel 2:1-11
1Blow the trumpet in Zion,sound an alarm in my holy mountain:let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:the Lord's Day comes...
2A Day of darkness and of gloominess,a Day of clouds and of thick darkness...a great people and a strong there has not been ever the like,neither shall be any more after it...
3A fire devoures before them;and behind them a flame burns:the land is as the garden of Eden before them,and behind them a desolate wilderness...
5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoures the stubble,as a strong people set in battle array.
6Before their face the people shall be much pained...
7They shall run like mighty men;they shall climb the wall like men of war;and they shall march every one on his ways,and they shall not break their ranks:
8...and when they fall upon the sword,they shall not be wounded.
9They shall run to and fro in the city;they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses;they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10The earth shall quake before them...
11And the Lord shall utter His voice before His army:His camp is very great:He is strong that executes His Word:the Day of the Lord is great,very terrible;and who can abide it?
You hit the nail when you said. "we need to look through spiritual eyes and not always focus on who speaks the loudest or most eloquently or makes the rules."
I must admit that it is very hard to distinguish between personality traits and spiritual gifts. Today, the church has borrowed some worldly principles, qualities, and traits instead of relying on spiritual gifts. So many so-called Christian leaders and "celebrities" are not even born again, but they are able to hide behind their natural talents and play an influent role in the body of Christ. Unfortunately, it is hard sometimes to distinguish between them.
The "immaterial parts of man that remain accountable to God"? Are you talking about floating ghosts here?
The body and soul TOGETHER make the man. Man cannot exist without his body.
Firstly, on the name 'Gehenna', otherwise called the "Valley of Hinnom", the Encyclopaedia definition is quite correct about the purpose why that area was set aside. It was indeed a place for the burning of refuse & the dead. And yes, it meant that they were all annihilated - no more evidence except dust & ashes. So, it can mean 'annihilation', but Gehenna can also mean 'a place of burning where the fires are never quenched'. And we know that the body is disposed of there, but what about the immaterial parts of man that remains accountable to God? And you also referenced a verse I quoted in Matthew 10:28. Taken on its own, that verse could well support your belief of a complete extermination of body, soul & spirit.
But it was for that very reason that I gave you the other verses to look up & consider. Not only was Matthew 10:28 Jesus' Words, but also Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15. You didn't take these into account. And we know, as I trust you are conversant, that when we deal with a topic or a doctrine from the Bible, we need to take in all the references that deal specifically with it. Unfortunately, our natural human instinct is to accept only those that we find palatable or in agreement with, thus distorting the teaching from the Word.
So, if you would care to look at those other verses & see how they affect your understanding of Matthew 10:28, I would be very interested. It's only when we consider all verses on a subject, can we get a fuller picture of it meaning & its implications. However, sometimes there aren't too many verses to help us learn about the subject - in such cases we can't force a teaching by them & just leave the subject open. Yet, not so with these important doctrines of the Deity of Christ & human existence & punishment after death.
John having given a warning of false teachers, John returns to the theme of this section.
Believers are to Love one another.
It's not Eros: romantic, passionate love.
It's not Philia: intimate, authentic friendship.
It's Agape. love that involves selflessness and compassion which the Spirit causes us to be totally given over to.
It's supernatural Love that the Holyspirit puts in our heart toward each other.
What makes this degree of Love "Agape" special is that it is directed! God causes this degree of Love to be aimed towards one another. When we were of the world, we loved darkness. ( John 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men "LOVED" darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. "Agape is used here as well. Notice where it's directed. "DARKNESS"
Agape towards the Brothern is a fruit, not a command. Only the Spirit of God can enable us to extend this degree of love to others.
Verse 8, He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Verses 9-13.
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Verse 16.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Verses 20-21.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Good night and God bless
Here I believe Judgment is speaking of discernment.
Part 1.
Something to notice about 1 John 2 and 1 John 4. In 1 John when you study it carefully, you see John using the contrast of loving your brother "which is hating your brother" to illustrate the heart of nonbelievers who "say" they love God. John is saying if you don't love your brother, you don't love God!
Look at verse 2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
It all begins in Bethlehem! Christ was born in Bethlehem. It's the incarnation is where we begin!
Calvary and the Garden tomb are meaningless unless he is who he claims to be. God in the flesh! 1 Timothy 3:16.
One way you can determine the false teacher is he will deny the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and behind this doctrine and the lack of the Spirit, he will have no love for the Brothern. This is the Spirit of the Antichrist.
John has much to say about the deity of Christ. John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...
1 John he has a lot to say about the Antichrist in the world.
These false teachers appeals to the flesh! We have the Spirit of Christ which protects us.
Verse 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. These false teachers intellectually appeal to the world through their fleshly minds.
Verse 5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
God's children "WILL" respond to God's word.
Verse 7, Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
John having given a warning of false teachers, John returns to the theme of this section.
See Part 2.
We interpret the scripture as literal as we can unless prompt by perhaps words that hint not to. such as Revelation 16:13. And I saw three unclean spirits "like frogs" come out of the mouth of the dragon, ( These are not frogs, they are like frogs.)
Often you can go back to the Old Testament or other places for clarity in these symbols. perhaps the second plague that God sent upon Egypt was that of frogs. The Egyptians found the frogs to be so obnoxious that Pharaoh entreated Moses to remove all the frogs. And these frogs covered the whole land.
These evil spirits coming out of the mouth of this unholy trinity may be what is spoken and persuaded of them. look at the preceding verse.
(For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.) "Which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world" means this covers the whole word.
God bless.
God bless.
It has been said that God will; in general either indicate a yes; no or later as to His answers to prayer. Lately I have recognized doors closing repeatedly in attempting to extricate myself from my current living situation with communication not being received; or possibilities ending up in dead ends. If only we could be so tenacious when God indicates a yes to our prayers as we can be seeking our own will when wanting things our way; or out of sync with God's timing in bringing a clear answer to our requests.
Often in relationships conflict leads us to doubt God's response favoring our petitions. Most likely this indicates indeed He is working in the situation; as the spiritual resistance is bound to occur from the enemy when the Lord is planning to give us favor in a certain area. As to HOW God intends to answer things; it is not in the mind of natural man to desire to show unconditional love to unreasonable people which later on bears fruit if we persevere. It is also inconceivable to understand how God can bring out of death and other chaos in life peace beyond understanding; using it to wake others up to eternal truths; for instance. This is a profound mystery; we surely do not understand how God uses evil for His purposes; but ultimately all rewards we receive in glory are due to sacrifice and suffering while here on earth.
Perseverance brings great reward and this is certainly true with prayer. Oftentimes it seems answers come long after we have forgotten the request; or even the situation and individuals involved with a salvation as one example. We should be equally open to recognizing the answered prayers of others and inform them of such to bring rejoicing when they come to pass. Many times we also cease striving for someone when something appears to be answered; such as with one family member saved and not striving in prayer for more. We need to be open to whom; how; when and where to pray in the Spirit.
May we be faithful in our SAVIOR, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, as we wait. We are called to be fruitful in our carrying out HIS desire for us. To make disciples Matthew 28: 18-20; to pray for those in authority 1 Timothy 2:1-3; submit ourselves to GOD and resist the devil James 4: 7, 8.
GOD to shine HIS face on all the saints and bless us that we may also be a
blessing unto others.
November 18, 2023
See my post to Jema.
We can talk more on this after I receive Jema's reply.
About the trinity:
God gives us the perfect object lesson in marriage. A man and woman become "one". But, they remain two separate people.
But, they are united as "one" in purpose ,plan, and action. (At least , that was the plan. Some marriages fail that aspect.)
And so, Jesus is God, with his own identity separate from God the Father, separate from the Holy Spirit.
Is this what you believe too?
If the church as a whole took Jesus' words more seriously, our voice would be more respected in the world. When we neglect to address grievous sins in the church, we appear to take sin lightly. Skeptics can't respect our claim to honor the Bible as God's Word while we ignore those of our number who are overtly disobeying it.
GOD GIVES US HIS SPIRIT TO PERFORM WHAT WE CAN'T DO IN THE FLESH. AND THIS IS HOW WE KNOW HE IS IN US.
1 John 6:13.
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
God bless you Brother Carleton.
Part 4.
We use Brothern to loosely today. Everyone amongst us is not a Brother or a Sister!
Look at the example Jesus gives in Matthew 12:47-50.
"Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren.
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Romans 12:3 says not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
We all have flaws and we're all of one body ministering by the same Spirit, having gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us by "THE GIFT" (Christ Spirit.) We are to exercise those gifts by the power of Christ Spirit.
We are to Love one another; I've declared that on this site since I've been on it using John 13:34-35 as a springboard.
Also, 1 John 4:20-21 and Matthew 7:15-16.
We shall be known by our fruit, not our gifts!
CAN YOU GENERATE THIS ON YOUR OWN?
Love amongst the brothern is not partial.
It's not determined by race, wealth, political parties, Gender, status in the church, or one's eschatology.
Love at its highest level is Agape. It's caused by the Holyspirit that knits us as one. It's to be totally given over to.
I've seen where one says he have the gift of discernment but yet he shuns other Brothern.
If you have an issue with a brother, you restore him. Galatians 6:1-4.
We must look out for each other. James 5:20 says, "Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." Confrontation may be difficult, but it is not loving to allow a professing Christian to continue in a sin that will bring God's consequences upon him.
See Part 5.
Of course, I do not mind, you have always treated me with respect and care.
What John 11:25-26 means to me. Jesus is the resurrection, His perfect life when He died on the cross and was buried in a tomb death could not hold Him. To me, it is the gospel, the simplicity of Jesus Christ, the message of salvation, and our hope in eternal life. Even if we die, we who believe in Jesus Christ will live as we see in John 5:29 the resurrection of life.
We sleep in death, but we have the promise of eternal life, we will never die. Those of the wicked and lost will face the second death, the permanent death of no return. As Jesus asked Martha do you believe this, regardless of what we face and the struggles and doubts we have in this world we go through in this fleshly body, all of our hope and trust must be in Jesus, who is the truth, the light, and what He said will come to be.
God bless,
RLW
Part 3.
Carleton, When I speak of demonic influence, I mean that literally!! I'm not name calling. Yes, I believe in that and I believe in demons also. There is no Holy kiss for that person!! This Holy kiss of acceptance is to and for the Brothern.
Romans 12:9 says Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Abhor means to detest, or to feel abhorrence of; hate; dislike intensely.
When someone doesn't hold the truth that's one thing, but when someone stands in the way of the preaching of the cross of Christ that's another and it's evil. That's not a brother.
Look at Paul in Philippians 3:2. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Paul calls them the enemies of the cross of Christ. And he says to MARK them! Philippians 3:17-19.
How do you reconcile these scriptures?
1 Corinthians 5:6-13.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
Listen to Paul in Titus 2:15. To rebuke someone is to admonish or convict. convince one of a fault. "This is from brother to Brother. Him you kiss, not an enemy of the cross of Christ.
We have those amongst us that promote a legalistic means of Justification that the scriptures identifies them as "Enemies of the cross of Christ." The scripture doesn't say greet them with an Holy kiss. In fact it says "Mark them which walk so"
However atleast they promote righteous living! They're just not justified before God in their efforts without a rebirth.
This person here in question, for the past three years or so doesn't promote righteous living at all! And they don't promote the acceptance of the work of Christ on the Cross as THE means for salvation! Would you say he's a Brother?
See Part 4.
I have waited to respond to something you said in this post for this last week seeking guidance on what to ask you.
So, I will venture here to do so. Please understand, I am not attacking you here. I just want to understand your view better.
You said that you are deeply offended when people say "God the Son". I would like you to explain why it offends you so much?
Do you believe that Jesus is God? Do you worship Him as God or as a Man?
Do you worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
What do you believe about the Godhead?
I would certainly appreciate your answers to these questions and what Scriptures you use to support your views.
As, you probably know, I believe the Trinitarian doctrine is the best explanation of what the Scriptures reveal about the Godhead. But I am trying to understand why people believe otherwise and what Scriptures they use to support their beliefs.