Please know that I am not ignoring you. And no, I am not offended at all. You have some questions but I am not sure if you are looking for me to answer any of them as you said these are questions that you have asked yourself. As you stated, we do have a different understanding on this topic.
Please let me know if you would like me to respond to any of these questions. Thanks!
Hello Valmar. Rather than respond with several pages, I would ask this one thing: what was the purpose of God to send His Spirit to indwell those who truly repented & sought to follow Him & His Son Jesus? I note that you stated, "God made the way, Christ made the sacrifice and the Holy Spirit provides the ability or power for us to follow Christ daily, unless we choose otherwise." Do you then understand anything more of the Work of the Holy Spirit other than His enabling & power to follow Christ daily?
I sense that much of your comment centers around this understanding of the Spirit's Coming & Work, as it bears upon how a life is lived for Christ, the consequences of falling short, of retrieval/renewal, of learning through His Ministry, and of course in the view of the Old Testament, how the Spirit worked in those prior to Jesus' Sacrifice under the Mosaic Covenant. Blessings.
Here is a topic that is sure to get everyone on this forum in an uproar: the flat earth
Is the earth flat? When all eyes see Jesus return, how can that be unless the earth is flat? Is the Bible a flat earth book? The Tower of Babel was being built into the sky, and God stopped it. Is that because he gave the earth to man, but the heavens belong to him?
Is NASA run by free masons? Is outer space real? If all the astronauts are free masons, does that mean they were complicit? Did we really go into space? Was Capernicus a Catholic? Is there a conspiracy hiding the truth of our earthly home? Are they trying to hide God from us? God's calendar uses the moon, but the papal system switched all of us to the sun. Why?
So many questions. So many conspiracies. What the heck is going on? Who can know for sure?
LORD God, please help us know what is true. Lead us towards you, through the confusion. Amen.
I'm a bit confused here. You're beginning a new thread but it looks pretty much the same as the last one you began. In that thread you said that you do not like to debate. Out of respect for you, I told you that I would move on from that discussion.
So now here we are with a new thread started on the same subject. With these questions you're asking, is there a reason why you didn't just continue on in the last thread you started?
I am trying to figure out what exactly you are looking for? Are you putting these questions out and looking for answers, or are you presenting these things as this is the way it is, non-debatable?
I would like to answer a couple of your questions if that's okay. You ask, "Why is eternal torture in hell for the sinner / atheist etc , never mentioned in the Old Testament?"
You also ask, "why didn't God ever say to Moses : tell the children of Israel that if they don't obey me , after they have died , they will spend eternity in a torture chamber , run by satan and his minions , being tortured day and night for all eternity ?"
The answer to that is because there is no eternal torture chamber run by Satan and his minions. The Bible says nothing about an eternal torture chamber. To my knowledge, no one on this forum has ever mentioned anything about an eternal torture chamber.
The Bible does however speak of eternal punishment, eternal torment, and everlasting contempt.
To one of your other questions as to why, if we have the same scriptures, why do we believe different things? That is a great question. I mean, how dare any of us disagree with what the other person believes? If you and I have the same Bible, why are we in disagreement?
And yet, this question is not difficult to answer. Did you know that it is necessary that there be division in the church?
You are correct however that the Bible does not say anything about an eternal torture chamber. I do agree with you on that.
Amen indeed, brother S. Spencer. And the best & proper way to counteract false teaching is simply to present the Truth from God's Word. And whenever false teaching surfaces, whether in the Church or by personal interactions, we must never shy away from it, but present Truth simply as a biblical yardstick by which all may judge. And to those who would further dispute the Word, then an on-going discussion will help to engage our hearts & minds more fully to the revealed Scriptures.
Remember: Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of GOD- Romans 10:17. The Word is GOD, understand? Yes, the Word is the invisible GOD, self-executable. For example: The Word said: Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a VIRGIN shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
The Word said(the Word is GOD): Isaiah 9:6-7:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with Judgment and with Justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (By the way, GOD calleth those things which be not as though they were- Romans 4:17-understand? The Word is GOD, self-executing).
Speaking of Judgment,JESUS said"the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net,that was cast into the sea,and gathered of every kind:Which,when it was full,they drew to shore,and gathered the good into vessels,but cast the bad away-Mat.13:47-48 compared with Mat.25:30.
Paul said:"For we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ;that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done,whether it be good or bad-2Cor.5:10.
JESUS said: John 12:47-48:->47 if any man hear my words, and believe not,I Judge him not:for I came not to judge the world,but to save the world.48 He that rejecteth me,and receiveth not my words,hath one that Judgeth him:the WORD that I have spoken,the same shall Judge him in the last Day(seventh and last Day,seventh and last millennium.Well,it already arrived)
JESUS is in heaven now and is sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.He will not come here again except to caught His people to the new heavenly place( Luke 20:35-36 combined with 1Thes.4:15-17),but it is necessary to have lamp and oil, otherwise will be lost for ever.But Judgment will be given to the saints of the most High;the time came that the saints shall possess the kingdom,and they shall take away the dominion,to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion,and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,and all dominions shall serve and obey him-Dan.7:22&26-27.
And Peter said:The time is come that Judgment must begin at the house of GOD:and if it first begin at us,what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of GOD?And if the righteous scarcely be saved,where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?1Pe.4:17-18
JESUS warned,saying:at midnight there was a crie made,Behold,the bridegroom came;go ye out to meet him,they that are ready go in with him to the marriage:the door shall be shut.
Jesus in His teaching on this (& this account was not a parable as it does not meet the definition of a parable) is found in Luke 16:20-31, showing that the spirit of man must go somewhere. In the OT economy, where Hades was that temporary residence of departed souls till the Cross, Jesus still taught that there was consciousness in the after-life & also places of rest & waiting and also of torment. And Jesus was giving a real view of life beyond the grave, or else by naming people & places, He was just a deceiver. Jesus never did that; all His parables were without specifics, just everyday situations to which there was a special meaning. Luke 16 is not a parable but a view of the after-life - and He should know.
"Hell is a finality.", you wrote. No, Hell & Heaven are only the beginning. Our lives on Earth are but a quick snapshot of time compared to an everlasting existence, whether in God's Presence or in torment. And finally, you stated a good question, "Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!" What Jesus was teaching here is that the departed spirit can still feel agony, just as there can be joy & celebration (e.g. Luke 15:10). The spirit of this 'rich man' wasn't thirsty for even a sip of water - he was in torment, & sought comfort, ANY comfort, to relieve him of his agony. Would any amount of water have helped him - I seriously doubt it, but our earthly comparison to this would be, "a drowning man will clutch at a straw" to try & save himself, & would fit the Luke 16 account. And the rich man even pleaded that his brothers would be warned now while still alive, lest they come into such an awful place. So the actual fundamental question remains is: since the Word of God is replete with accounts of the awfulness of a Christ-less eternity, are we going to take the warnings given in it as just a story/a parable/a fable or believe in Jesus & the apostles' words?
Again, dealing with your recent comments to me, now in one post, Shabbat Keeper. Firstly, Adam has written very well to Jema, so I won't bring up the matter of the definition of "eternal/eternity", which should alone convince us that physical death is not the end for anyone (believer or unbeliever).
If I'm correct from your first post to me, "what an icky thought it is, to stop existing", you believe in the total annihilation of the body at death (for the unbeliever). So, when the Bible speaks of man, his existence & his death, we are first reminded that man is a tripartite being (i.e. one whose composition is of body, soul & spirit: 1 Thessalonians 5:23). When the body dies, it decomposes back to the Earth, but those parts of man that cannot be killed ( Matthew 10:28) can never be destroyed. Unlike animals, man's spirit, given by God, returns to Him ( Ecclesiastes 3:21), whereas animals cease to exist - forever. Therefore, if man, made by God to reflect His Image & traits, is accountable to God, will never cease to exist (his spirit & soul cannot be destroyed, whether by death, fire, or whatever), & he will stand in judgement before God. For this reason, the Gospel is so vital for all to hear, to alert all people that death is not final - there remains an accountability & their final judgement will be based on what they have done with Jesus Who came for them.
You wrote, "Hell fire is the same thing as destruction" & you gave the example of a house on fire. A house is physical/material, a spirit is not - it can never be destroyed. The real Shabbat Keeper or myself are found in our spirits/souls - the body is simply the house in which we need to live in. So yes, this house is corrupt & temporal, but we who have Christ's Spirit in us, look to be clothed (endowed) with that "house which is from heaven" ( 2 Corinthians 5:1-6). Likewise, hell (not the grave), is the dwelling place of those who have spurned God's Love - spirits they are & in torment.
Ah! The perpetual discussion on eternal security. Almost as exciting as discussing who the Sons of God were in Gen. 6:2, but I'll save that one for another time. Unfortunately, we live in a time when 'rightly' dividing the Word has become somehow more complicated. I believe the Bible has every answer to all the questions we need to have answered in order to walk circumspectly with the Lord. I'll make it brief, then, that the ability to lose one's salvation rests completely with that individual. God made the way, Christ made the sacrifice and the Holy Spirit provides the ability or power for us to follow Christ daily, unless we choose otherwise. Salvation from God does not negate one's ability to choose between God or something less. The Bible contains those who started well and finished poorly. So poorly they ended up in Hades. Saul, Israel's first king, was one whom God withdrew His spirit from ( 1 Sam. 16:14), Judas Iscariot whom Christ called to follow Him, willingly rejected and betrayed Christ after he witnessed and performed miracles/wonders in His name when sent out by Jesus in pairs ( Mark 6:7-13) and then, Demas, who forsook Paul for the love of the world ( 2 Tim. 4:10). But, finally, God has a word that many overlook in the Bible. It's a short 4-letter word called "blot". It's used in Exodus 32:32-33 where God tells Moses He will blot out the names of those who reject Him from His book and then in Revelation 3:5, Jesus himself declares that He will not blot out the names of those who overcome the trials and sufferings that believers face, but warns those who are not watching and keeping His commands. I know that my flesh nature would love the idea that once I get saved, I have no more worries about anything. Lack of rewards in Heaven will be no big deal because we won't feel shame or regret. You better read Luke 14:27 and Matt. 10:38, no one will wear Heaven's crown until they carry their earthly cross in His service. Thanks for your time.
The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (By the way,remember that "Blessed are the meek:for they shall inherit the earth"- Matthew 5:5 combined with Revelation 5:10.)
16And the four and twenty elders,which sat before GOD on their seats,fell upon their faces,and worshipped GOD,
17Saying, We give thee thanks,O Lord God Almighty,which art,and wast,and art to come;because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,and hast reigned.
18And the NATIONS were(WILL BE)angry,and thy WRATH is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be Judged,and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name,small and great;and shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth.
There will be WAR in heaven:Michael and his angels fought(will fight)against the Dragon;and the Dragon fought(will fight)and his angels-Re.12:7.
And I saw one of his heads(one of his 7 heads) as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the Beast(Beast of sea-the Gentile Beast).And they worshipped the Dragon(the Devil-son of perdition- 2Thessalonians 2:2-3)which gave power unto the Beast(Beast of sea):and they worshipped the Beast,saying,Who is like unto the Beast?who is able to make WAR with him?- Revelation 13:3-4.(Michael is.The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever)
Re.6:15-17: 15And the kings of the earth,and the great men,and the rich men,and the chief captains,and the mighty men,and every bondman,and every free man,hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us,and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne,and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great Day of his WRATH is come;who shall be able to stand?
Why is eternal torture in hell for the sinner / atheist etc , never mentioned in the old testament ? Why , when Israel wandered in the desert , led by Moses , when Israel sinned in all the different and frequent ways that they did , why didn't God ever say to Moses : tell the children of Israel that if they don't obey me , after they have died , they will spend eternity in a torture chamber , run by satan and his minions , being tortured day and night for all eternity ? Why didn't God ever tell them that that is what would happen to them , if that is what was going to happen to them ? Is God deceitful ? I don't think so . Is God very honest and open towards us ? Yes , He is . God says : the soul that sinneth it shall die and the wages of sin is death . Simple , honest , open , that is God's communication with us . He is not the author of confusion . How many Israelites would have been terrified into obedience if Moses had told them about an eternal torture chamber ruled over by a demon ? But that's not what Moses said because that's not what God said , anywhere in the old testament . I don't even see it in the new either , but by that time Israel was populated by all kinds of people from all kinds of religious , or rather idolatrous backgrounds who believed all kinds of fables and many of these myths and legends had found their way into Israel's hearts and minds . We see this in the divisions between the Pharisees and the Sadducees , both groups considered themselves to be faithful and loyal Jews but they both believed different things , they both had the scriptures ( old testament) they like us were reading the same book yet believed very different things . Why ? How did that happen ? It happens when myths and legends and fables from other civilisations creep in . If the Jews were divided then no wonder we are . We are much more aware of other cultures because they really are all around us in these last days . Just believe what it says , not what you think it says
You quoted Revelation 15:4 in your post which will LITERALLY be fulfille from now on, day after day, and Revelation 6:15-17 reveal that
15 The kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid(wiil hide)themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 saying to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the Lamb:
17 For the great Day of His WRATH(the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Matthew 25:34 and 41 NS 46
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2 Peter 3:11-12 and 7-8
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED(dismantled), what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of GOD(the Lord's Day, the seventh Day or seventh millennium), wherein the heavens being on fire shall be DISSOLVED(i.e. the two Covenants will be DISSOLVED), and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?(Yes, GOD is a devouring /consuming fire-See Isaiah 33:12-14)
7 But the heavens(two Covenants)and the earth(Israel,the dry land,the clay),which are now,by the same Word are kept in store,reserved unto fire against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But,beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years,and a thousand years as one Day.
The battle is/will be against three unclean spirits like frogs-Re.16:13-15-(why frogs?)
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially those that BELIEVE.
Hebrews 2:8 .... we see not yet ALL THINGS put under him .....
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when ALL THINGS shall be subdued unto him ....God will be ALL in ALL....
Revelation 13:8 And all they that dwell upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP HIM, whose names are NOT WRITTEN in the book of life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world.
Psalms 86:9 All nations whom thou has made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall come and worship before thee.
Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, Oh Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee, for thy judgements are made manifest.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
THE BEST PROTECTION AGAINST THE DARKNESS OF ERROR IS THE LIGHT OF TRUTH."
should the words "do not pronounce judgment before the time" keep us from identifying false teachers or from naming them?
I don't think so. "Don't pronounce judgment before the time" means "Don't do what only Christ can do at that last day - on the day of judgment." Don't presume to know the heart like Jesus will know the heart on that day. Only Christ "will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart."
But for now, our job is indeed to do mouth judgment, writing judgment, behavior judgment - not a heart judgment, but mouth and writing and behavior judgment. When a mouth speaks unbiblical, destructive teaching, when a blog or an article or a book publishes unbiblical and destructive teaching, when a body - a human body, a physical body - behaves with unbiblical and destructive behavior, in all these cases, we are to be discerning.
And according to Ephesians 5:11 we are to expose the error. "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them." "Censure them; show them to be wrong" is what the word elegch means.
So let's begin with Jesus. Matthew 7:15: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." And the word beware means all of us should be alert, but especially shepherds, to identify not just false teaching, but false teachers, whose ways are subtle. They're clothing themselves with lamb's wool while they're wolves.
And Paul used the same Greek word for beware in Acts 20:28-29 when he said, "Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. . . . I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock."
"IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE FLOCK, WE SHOULD EXPOSE FALSE TEACHERS AND MINIMIZE THE SPREAD OF THE GANGRENE."
Jesus used the same word again in Matthew 16:6, but he got more specific: "Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Paul had the same kind of group in mind and the same kind of error in mind in Philippians 3:2 and 3:18: "Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh." And then verse 18:
"For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ." Then in Romans 16:17, he warned, "Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them."
To avoid them, you have to know who they are. You can't avoid somebody if you don't know who they are. This idea of identifying and avoiding shows up in
1 Corinthians 5:11;
2 Thessalonians 3:6,
2 Thessalonians 3:14;
2 Timothy 3:5;
2 John 1:10.
In other words, Christians, and shepherds in particular, should be discerning and alert to behavior and teaching that dishonors Christ and destroys people - and not treat it in a casual or harmless way.
And then in 1 Timothy 5:19-20, Paul went beyond just "avoid them" to "rebuke them publicly." So, speaking of elders who persist in error, he said, "Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin" - and that can be sin of false doctrine or sin of evil behavior, anyone who does not accept correction - "rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.."
And then Paul went on and actually named destructive false teachers:
"Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me" 2 Timothy 4:10.
You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes" 2 Timothy 1:15.
"By rejecting this [faith and a good conscience], some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander" 1 Timothy 1:19-20.
"Their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus" ( 2 Timothy 2:17).
Paul names at least six false teachers that the church should watch out for.
So, I infer from Jesus and Paul and Luke and John that false teaching and destructive behavior are present dangers in this fallen world for the church. And all of us - especially shepherds, pastors - should be alert and discerning to identify and, in appropriate ways, expose. In order to protect the flock, we should expose them and minimize the spread of the gangrene (as Paul calls it).
In musical circles; oftentimes the dumbing down to fit the cookie cutter repeated musical themes twice; a brief refrain; quiet and finale of nebulous spiritual consistency is just as much an issue. What is showed off usually is everything BUT musical talent (glamour; glitz; hypnotic repetition; endless shallow romantic love themes indistinguishable from worldly desire). This underplaying also offends God where we are to put the best expression into our musical gifts for His glory. Those who are gifted musically that I tend to obsess on oftentimes are not Christians; but with acoustic or folk music genres I can perhaps safely listen and appreciate them for musical talent without idolizing them. In this style music old "spirituals" are often sung here and there that have more Biblical content than those the Christian industry is pandering (ok that's it for that rant).
Those who espouse lies are coming out it seems; the truth always reveals itself. Truth be told as I have stated elsewhere there always has to be some truth with any effective lies or liars; and scripture still can prick hearts despite bad preachers. The general apostasy these days means that more than ever we can't put stock in any human being. Those who appear to have been in the faith and fall away ultimately aren't saved as I see scripture; but since we can't foresee these things (although the signs of bad fruit should awake our discerning souls) we need to be prepared as to not let a root of bitterness for instance tempt us to abandon the faith ourselves when other fall.
My belief is that lack of spiritual discernment is a primary issue here. How else can demonic spiritual manifestations and doctrines be so readily accepted? Either choosing to believe any manifestation as being from God or not believe at all in the miraculous end up being two extremes we can fall into. As Ecclesiastes states weeping is better than laughter for the soul; and fear of God the beginning of wisdom.
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
Luke 16:19-31 was a common PARABLE of that time. Jesus was using it as a TEACHING lesson. And, by the way, this Lazarus in the story is not the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.
In no way, was Jesus saying the dead suffer in a state of torment. Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!
make me hear of your love in the morning,
make me know the path I should walk,
teach me to do your will,
guide me on ground that is level.
Amen.
From psalms.
Please know that I am not ignoring you. And no, I am not offended at all. You have some questions but I am not sure if you are looking for me to answer any of them as you said these are questions that you have asked yourself. As you stated, we do have a different understanding on this topic.
Please let me know if you would like me to respond to any of these questions. Thanks!
God bless!!!
I sense that much of your comment centers around this understanding of the Spirit's Coming & Work, as it bears upon how a life is lived for Christ, the consequences of falling short, of retrieval/renewal, of learning through His Ministry, and of course in the view of the Old Testament, how the Spirit worked in those prior to Jesus' Sacrifice under the Mosaic Covenant. Blessings.
Here is a topic that is sure to get everyone on this forum in an uproar: the flat earth
Is the earth flat? When all eyes see Jesus return, how can that be unless the earth is flat? Is the Bible a flat earth book? The Tower of Babel was being built into the sky, and God stopped it. Is that because he gave the earth to man, but the heavens belong to him?
Is NASA run by free masons? Is outer space real? If all the astronauts are free masons, does that mean they were complicit? Did we really go into space? Was Capernicus a Catholic? Is there a conspiracy hiding the truth of our earthly home? Are they trying to hide God from us? God's calendar uses the moon, but the papal system switched all of us to the sun. Why?
So many questions. So many conspiracies. What the heck is going on? Who can know for sure?
LORD God, please help us know what is true. Lead us towards you, through the confusion. Amen.
I'm a bit confused here. You're beginning a new thread but it looks pretty much the same as the last one you began. In that thread you said that you do not like to debate. Out of respect for you, I told you that I would move on from that discussion.
So now here we are with a new thread started on the same subject. With these questions you're asking, is there a reason why you didn't just continue on in the last thread you started?
I am trying to figure out what exactly you are looking for? Are you putting these questions out and looking for answers, or are you presenting these things as this is the way it is, non-debatable?
I would like to answer a couple of your questions if that's okay. You ask, "Why is eternal torture in hell for the sinner / atheist etc , never mentioned in the Old Testament?"
You also ask, "why didn't God ever say to Moses : tell the children of Israel that if they don't obey me , after they have died , they will spend eternity in a torture chamber , run by satan and his minions , being tortured day and night for all eternity ?"
The answer to that is because there is no eternal torture chamber run by Satan and his minions. The Bible says nothing about an eternal torture chamber. To my knowledge, no one on this forum has ever mentioned anything about an eternal torture chamber.
The Bible does however speak of eternal punishment, eternal torment, and everlasting contempt.
To one of your other questions as to why, if we have the same scriptures, why do we believe different things? That is a great question. I mean, how dare any of us disagree with what the other person believes? If you and I have the same Bible, why are we in disagreement?
And yet, this question is not difficult to answer. Did you know that it is necessary that there be division in the church?
You are correct however that the Bible does not say anything about an eternal torture chamber. I do agree with you on that.
Praying for the peace in Jerusalem.
GOD bless all on this forum.
November 20, 2023
Remember: Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of GOD- Romans 10:17. The Word is GOD, understand? Yes, the Word is the invisible GOD, self-executable. For example: The Word said: Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a VIRGIN shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
The Word said(the Word is GOD): Isaiah 9:6-7:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with Judgment and with Justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (By the way, GOD calleth those things which be not as though they were- Romans 4:17-understand? The Word is GOD, self-executing).
Have you never read Hebrews 11 ?
Well , happily for us, this question is not a salvific issue. The LORD gives all a free will to determine what's what.
May the LORD bless your continued studies. :)
Speaking of Judgment,JESUS said"the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net,that was cast into the sea,and gathered of every kind:Which,when it was full,they drew to shore,and gathered the good into vessels,but cast the bad away-Mat.13:47-48 compared with Mat.25:30.
Paul said:"For we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ;that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done,whether it be good or bad-2Cor.5:10.
JESUS said: John 12:47-48:->47 if any man hear my words, and believe not,I Judge him not:for I came not to judge the world,but to save the world.48 He that rejecteth me,and receiveth not my words,hath one that Judgeth him:the WORD that I have spoken,the same shall Judge him in the last Day(seventh and last Day,seventh and last millennium.Well,it already arrived)
JESUS is in heaven now and is sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.He will not come here again except to caught His people to the new heavenly place( Luke 20:35-36 combined with 1Thes.4:15-17),but it is necessary to have lamp and oil, otherwise will be lost for ever.But Judgment will be given to the saints of the most High;the time came that the saints shall possess the kingdom,and they shall take away the dominion,to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion,and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,and all dominions shall serve and obey him-Dan.7:22&26-27.
And Peter said:The time is come that Judgment must begin at the house of GOD:and if it first begin at us,what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of GOD?And if the righteous scarcely be saved,where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?1Pe.4:17-18
JESUS warned,saying:at midnight there was a crie made,Behold,the bridegroom came;go ye out to meet him,they that are ready go in with him to the marriage:the door shall be shut.
Jesus in His teaching on this (& this account was not a parable as it does not meet the definition of a parable) is found in Luke 16:20-31, showing that the spirit of man must go somewhere. In the OT economy, where Hades was that temporary residence of departed souls till the Cross, Jesus still taught that there was consciousness in the after-life & also places of rest & waiting and also of torment. And Jesus was giving a real view of life beyond the grave, or else by naming people & places, He was just a deceiver. Jesus never did that; all His parables were without specifics, just everyday situations to which there was a special meaning. Luke 16 is not a parable but a view of the after-life - and He should know.
"Hell is a finality.", you wrote. No, Hell & Heaven are only the beginning. Our lives on Earth are but a quick snapshot of time compared to an everlasting existence, whether in God's Presence or in torment. And finally, you stated a good question, "Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!" What Jesus was teaching here is that the departed spirit can still feel agony, just as there can be joy & celebration (e.g. Luke 15:10). The spirit of this 'rich man' wasn't thirsty for even a sip of water - he was in torment, & sought comfort, ANY comfort, to relieve him of his agony. Would any amount of water have helped him - I seriously doubt it, but our earthly comparison to this would be, "a drowning man will clutch at a straw" to try & save himself, & would fit the Luke 16 account. And the rich man even pleaded that his brothers would be warned now while still alive, lest they come into such an awful place. So the actual fundamental question remains is: since the Word of God is replete with accounts of the awfulness of a Christ-less eternity, are we going to take the warnings given in it as just a story/a parable/a fable or believe in Jesus & the apostles' words?
Again, dealing with your recent comments to me, now in one post, Shabbat Keeper. Firstly, Adam has written very well to Jema, so I won't bring up the matter of the definition of "eternal/eternity", which should alone convince us that physical death is not the end for anyone (believer or unbeliever).
If I'm correct from your first post to me, "what an icky thought it is, to stop existing", you believe in the total annihilation of the body at death (for the unbeliever). So, when the Bible speaks of man, his existence & his death, we are first reminded that man is a tripartite being (i.e. one whose composition is of body, soul & spirit: 1 Thessalonians 5:23). When the body dies, it decomposes back to the Earth, but those parts of man that cannot be killed ( Matthew 10:28) can never be destroyed. Unlike animals, man's spirit, given by God, returns to Him ( Ecclesiastes 3:21), whereas animals cease to exist - forever. Therefore, if man, made by God to reflect His Image & traits, is accountable to God, will never cease to exist (his spirit & soul cannot be destroyed, whether by death, fire, or whatever), & he will stand in judgement before God. For this reason, the Gospel is so vital for all to hear, to alert all people that death is not final - there remains an accountability & their final judgement will be based on what they have done with Jesus Who came for them.
You wrote, "Hell fire is the same thing as destruction" & you gave the example of a house on fire. A house is physical/material, a spirit is not - it can never be destroyed. The real Shabbat Keeper or myself are found in our spirits/souls - the body is simply the house in which we need to live in. So yes, this house is corrupt & temporal, but we who have Christ's Spirit in us, look to be clothed (endowed) with that "house which is from heaven" ( 2 Corinthians 5:1-6). Likewise, hell (not the grave), is the dwelling place of those who have spurned God's Love - spirits they are & in torment.
heavenly father
in the mighty name of jesus
your vessel"s
i prayed not to be exposed to false doctrine
there were two message
thank you s spencer
god
bless you
Yes,Jema, as you said:"Thy Kingdom Come."
Re.11:15-18
The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (By the way,remember that "Blessed are the meek:for they shall inherit the earth"- Matthew 5:5 combined with Revelation 5:10.)
16And the four and twenty elders,which sat before GOD on their seats,fell upon their faces,and worshipped GOD,
17Saying, We give thee thanks,O Lord God Almighty,which art,and wast,and art to come;because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,and hast reigned.
18And the NATIONS were(WILL BE)angry,and thy WRATH is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be Judged,and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name,small and great;and shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth.
There will be WAR in heaven:Michael and his angels fought(will fight)against the Dragon;and the Dragon fought(will fight)and his angels-Re.12:7.
And I saw one of his heads(one of his 7 heads) as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the Beast(Beast of sea-the Gentile Beast).And they worshipped the Dragon(the Devil-son of perdition- 2Thessalonians 2:2-3)which gave power unto the Beast(Beast of sea):and they worshipped the Beast,saying,Who is like unto the Beast?who is able to make WAR with him?- Revelation 13:3-4.(Michael is.The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever)
Re.6:15-17: 15And the kings of the earth,and the great men,and the rich men,and the chief captains,and the mighty men,and every bondman,and every free man,hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us,and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne,and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great Day of his WRATH is come;who shall be able to stand?
You quoted Revelation 15:4 in your post which will LITERALLY be fulfille from now on, day after day, and Revelation 6:15-17 reveal that
15 The kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid(wiil hide)themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 saying to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the Lamb:
17 For the great Day of His WRATH(the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Matthew 25:34 and 41 NS 46
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2 Peter 3:11-12 and 7-8
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED(dismantled), what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of GOD(the Lord's Day, the seventh Day or seventh millennium), wherein the heavens being on fire shall be DISSOLVED(i.e. the two Covenants will be DISSOLVED), and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?(Yes, GOD is a devouring /consuming fire-See Isaiah 33:12-14)
7 But the heavens(two Covenants)and the earth(Israel,the dry land,the clay),which are now,by the same Word are kept in store,reserved unto fire against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But,beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years,and a thousand years as one Day.
The battle is/will be against three unclean spirits like frogs-Re.16:13-15-(why frogs?)
Get ready
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially those that BELIEVE.
Hebrews 2:8 .... we see not yet ALL THINGS put under him .....
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when ALL THINGS shall be subdued unto him ....God will be ALL in ALL....
Revelation 13:8 And all they that dwell upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP HIM, whose names are NOT WRITTEN in the book of life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world.
Psalms 86:9 All nations whom thou has made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall come and worship before thee.
Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, Oh Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee, for thy judgements are made manifest.
God bless you
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
THE BEST PROTECTION AGAINST THE DARKNESS OF ERROR IS THE LIGHT OF TRUTH."
should the words "do not pronounce judgment before the time" keep us from identifying false teachers or from naming them?
I don't think so. "Don't pronounce judgment before the time" means "Don't do what only Christ can do at that last day - on the day of judgment." Don't presume to know the heart like Jesus will know the heart on that day. Only Christ "will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart."
But for now, our job is indeed to do mouth judgment, writing judgment, behavior judgment - not a heart judgment, but mouth and writing and behavior judgment. When a mouth speaks unbiblical, destructive teaching, when a blog or an article or a book publishes unbiblical and destructive teaching, when a body - a human body, a physical body - behaves with unbiblical and destructive behavior, in all these cases, we are to be discerning.
And according to Ephesians 5:11 we are to expose the error. "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them." "Censure them; show them to be wrong" is what the word elegch means.
God bless
So let's begin with Jesus. Matthew 7:15: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." And the word beware means all of us should be alert, but especially shepherds, to identify not just false teaching, but false teachers, whose ways are subtle. They're clothing themselves with lamb's wool while they're wolves.
And Paul used the same Greek word for beware in Acts 20:28-29 when he said, "Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. . . . I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock."
"IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE FLOCK, WE SHOULD EXPOSE FALSE TEACHERS AND MINIMIZE THE SPREAD OF THE GANGRENE."
Jesus used the same word again in Matthew 16:6, but he got more specific: "Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Paul had the same kind of group in mind and the same kind of error in mind in Philippians 3:2 and 3:18: "Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh." And then verse 18:
"For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ." Then in Romans 16:17, he warned, "Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them."
BEWARE OF THE WOLVES.
God bless.
To avoid them, you have to know who they are. You can't avoid somebody if you don't know who they are. This idea of identifying and avoiding shows up in
1 Corinthians 5:11;
2 Thessalonians 3:6,
2 Thessalonians 3:14;
2 Timothy 3:5;
2 John 1:10.
In other words, Christians, and shepherds in particular, should be discerning and alert to behavior and teaching that dishonors Christ and destroys people - and not treat it in a casual or harmless way.
And then in 1 Timothy 5:19-20, Paul went beyond just "avoid them" to "rebuke them publicly." So, speaking of elders who persist in error, he said, "Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin" - and that can be sin of false doctrine or sin of evil behavior, anyone who does not accept correction - "rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.."
And then Paul went on and actually named destructive false teachers:
"Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me" 2 Timothy 4:10.
You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes" 2 Timothy 1:15.
"By rejecting this [faith and a good conscience], some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander" 1 Timothy 1:19-20.
"Their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus" ( 2 Timothy 2:17).
Paul names at least six false teachers that the church should watch out for.
So, I infer from Jesus and Paul and Luke and John that false teaching and destructive behavior are present dangers in this fallen world for the church. And all of us - especially shepherds, pastors - should be alert and discerning to identify and, in appropriate ways, expose. In order to protect the flock, we should expose them and minimize the spread of the gangrene (as Paul calls it).
AVOID, REBUKE, AND CALL OUT.
God bless
Those who espouse lies are coming out it seems; the truth always reveals itself. Truth be told as I have stated elsewhere there always has to be some truth with any effective lies or liars; and scripture still can prick hearts despite bad preachers. The general apostasy these days means that more than ever we can't put stock in any human being. Those who appear to have been in the faith and fall away ultimately aren't saved as I see scripture; but since we can't foresee these things (although the signs of bad fruit should awake our discerning souls) we need to be prepared as to not let a root of bitterness for instance tempt us to abandon the faith ourselves when other fall.
My belief is that lack of spiritual discernment is a primary issue here. How else can demonic spiritual manifestations and doctrines be so readily accepted? Either choosing to believe any manifestation as being from God or not believe at all in the miraculous end up being two extremes we can fall into. As Ecclesiastes states weeping is better than laughter for the soul; and fear of God the beginning of wisdom.
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
God bless you.
Luke 16:19-31 was a common PARABLE of that time. Jesus was using it as a TEACHING lesson. And, by the way, this Lazarus in the story is not the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.
In no way, was Jesus saying the dead suffer in a state of torment. Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!