Do you have a desire to be close to Christ? What gives you that desire? You are making a false accusation against me. I did not tell everyone I am right. I am simply sharing my belief, as you are yours. As far as my salvation goes, I am very secure in Christ Jesus. I believe in the eternal security of every believer, including you if you belong to Christ. If you believe that one day you can deny Christ and remove yourself from His hand, then you must also agree with me if I were to tell you that tomorrow you might deny Him. I mean, it is possible, right?
I can share many scriptures that persuade me to believe in the eternal security of the believer, but I've been in these conversations before, and no amount of scripture that I share with someone who is insecure in their salvation would change their mind. When it comes to my salvation, I place my trust completely in Christ. I cannot trust in myself to keep myself saved. As long as His Spirit is in me, I will always be saved, and He has promised to never leave.
You say that we can remove ourselves from the hand of God, except that the Bible says that God spread the universe with the span of His hand. That is a pretty big hand! In Ephesians Chapter 6, it says to be empowered in the Lord and in the grip of His strength."
Are you able to remove yourself from such a powerful grip?
I agree with you that a believer has an obligation to remain faithful to the Lord. In fact, that's what the Lord expects from us, faithfulness. He is faithful to us and He expects the same in return. But what is it that causes a believer to remain faithful? Is it our flesh, our human effort? Or is it the Spirit of Christ dwelling in a believer that causes them to remain faithful?
Just curious to know if you are faithful to Christ, and if so, what causes you to be faithful?
Jesse, you said we are "kept by the power of God, period!". I don't see anyone disputing that in this chat. The only thing is that it is by our faith and that is a continued present tense in the bible.
God is unchanging. His "dispensation" on how he communed with and saves people has changed, such as from the time of Adam and Eve to Noah, and from the Jews to Christians today. However, he is always consistent from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 that obedience is a must for salvation and not negotiable. And one thing that is clear from reading the Bible many times over the years is that God knows all, but, always gives us the choice and free will to do what is right.
As Christians, we stay in the love of Christ because we desire to be close to him and are led by the holy spirit. But we are not forced to stay in the love of Christ. Just as we got into the hands of God when we believed, we can also deny Christ and get right back out.
And I have not seen any bible verses directly from you to actually support "once saved always saved". I have seen a few others in this chat provide many scriptures and backed those verses with more verses, providing detailed explanations. You have just shared parts of verses out of context and told everyone you are right without backing it up with more verses.
Honestly Erich a great job presenting scripture and backing it up with a lot more scripture, going real in depth for conditional security. You just seem to be stuck on the same couple verses that are only part of a bigger picture that you are not mentioning because it will expose the fact the salvation really is conditional.
Jesus's call to Zacchaeus was his call to all of us. Christ bearing His longing to fellowship with us. For He longs to take us into the deep intimate place,, so that our eternal encouragement can be realized and His will be can be completed and secured. Then we can grow in the knowing of how utterly we are in Him.
My prayer is that we will always continue in His blessings for us.
That question involves a sense of one and the same when the accuser torments us and puts us in bondage. Obviously; as Romans 5:10; Colossians 1:21 and other verses indicate we all were enemies of God and remain so until we are Born Again.
It seems with Satan's role as the "accuser of the brethren" ( Revelation 12:10) that he focuses more on those who are saved than the rest of the world-for several reasons. For one thing; being the god of this world" (Corinthians) that men being already under his spell are better to not fear reality. Undoubtably; the enemy has learned that when the fear of God comes on someone as to their spiritual state they are more likely to turn to God. If the enemy of our souls affects us it starts in our minds; and when a weakness is exploited that leads to sin the carrot as it were switches to the accusations and oppression. It is because of our sin that he has legal authority to accuse us. He may also buffet us as occurred with Paul; or use people to go after us. This is; of course no battle to seek alone-we must trust God that Christ is sufficient-it is He who remains faithful even when we are not ( 2 Tim. 2:13). If we are rendered useless to produce fruit spiritually; that is enough to kill off our witness.
We need to understand that all our good works apart from Christ is "filthy rags" ( Isaiah 64:6). If we do have a healthy appreciation of that; we also need to see us as having a new nature (if truly we have examined ourselves in Christ to see if we are in the faith). The way to do this is to recognize His voice; and I pray that you can do that today. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. We; however fall at His feet realizing our unworthiness and undeservedness of His mercies. We still are capable of sin; but in Christ that is not truly who we are as our identity; but we are dying daily to self.
He chastises all He loves; that is different than destruction of His enemies.
Brother James, God's will is that all men come to LIFE and TRUTH.
I have a question?
What do you do when you depart this body of flesh? When only the spirit remains.
Hebrews 12:23 ....and to the spirits of just men made perfect....
Some of these men (apostles) were made perfect 2000 years ago; what have they been doing for 2000 years?
John 13:36 ....Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now (while you are in the flesh); but thou shall follow me afterwards (when only the spirit remains).
Christ is IN CREATION, (as the Holy Ghost), giving creation LIFE and bringing creation to TRUTH:
Ephesians 4:4 There is ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT ...
Ephesians 4:6 There is ONE GOD, and FATHER OF ALL...
God is LIFE and TRUTH.
When you leave this flesh and only spirit remains, you are ONE with GOD, ONE SPIRIT, ONE LIFE, ONE TRUTH.
Revelation 10:11 .....thou (John, also you as a ministering spirit) must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
John told the disciples to go unto ALL THE NATIONS preaching the kingdom of God; this is only possible after you become a spirit of a just man MADE PERFECT.
Good information: truth shines from the word of God. As you said the leaders of Jerusalem should have known. I believe they did know, in Matthew 2:3-6, that Jerusalem (chief priests and scribes) was also troubled. They knew the time, but God did to them what He did to Pharoah, He blinded and hardened their hearts, John 12:40. To me this kind of ties into the things S Spencer has been sharing.
There are other scriptures they were probably aware of, like Jeremiah 50:6 and Ezekiel 34 where God told Ezekiel to prophesy against the shepherds, (the leaders) and what God would do, Ezekiel 34:10.
So, they were troubled to hear Jesus was born. They did not even send anyone to Bethlehem to see. You would think they would have been jumping for joy, but they did not want to give up the power, wealth, and Moses's seat they had. Jesus the true Shepherd John 10:11 first came only for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24, fulfilling and confirming the covenant Hebrews 13:20. Jesus also told the scribes and the Pharisees their house is left to them desolate, and He will return Matthew 23:36-39.
Their duty as shepherds was over in that generation, 70 AD, and the sheep shall be gathered again, Isaiah 11:12Ezekiel 37:21-22Jeremiah 23:3 and more.
It would be wise for us all to approach Scripture as you stated," not reading between the lines" to come up with an understanding of the Scripture text that alters the meaning of the text in the context of the passage.
And thanks for speaking about Replacement Theology as I was not familiar with it prior to coming to this site. So, now I can read up on it and become informed in order to speak to it on this forum. Being here has introduced me to so many theological ideas and doctrines I have not been exposed to. So I am researching these more and finding what the Scriptures mean concerning these so I can determine whether what is said is true to Scriptures or not.
Many of these doctrines have arose within the past century or so and reflect age old heresies refuted by the early church and others are just plain new ideas.
Others are doctrines that have been discussed among different camps for centuries since the Reformation.
I am learning so much here. I guess I have lived a fairly "sheltered" life among believers that hold to what is considered more orthodox beliefs (which I am thankful for), so when I read such diverse ideas I will then read up on these to learn more in order to participate well in a discussion.
You have been very helpful to me over my short time here. Thank You.
Sister Suze, As you study Jeremiah you will see that God said, when I send Judah into captivity (the north country), of Babylon (physical), I will send ALL NATIONS into captivity (made drunk by my wrath) of the Babylon of Revelation.
Revelation 17:5
Isaiah 28:6-8
Out of the north country shall come spoilers (those delivered from captivity of the Babylon of Revelation).
These spoliers are the Sons of God described in Joel 2 and Jeremiah 51:19-64
The Bible should not be a confusing thing to understand. God is not the author of confusion, rather the author of truth. The truth is there for us to discover and understand but if we begin to insert our ideas into what we are reading then we will become confused and no scripture will seem to make sense.
From the time I was young...more than a few years ago...I was taught and always been a pre-trib person. Within the last few years questions arose and scripture verses and passage didn't match up. I began to read for myself and ...all of a sudden things began to clear up. I read the Bible with an open mind with no pre-conceived ideas of my own.
I'm no longer a pre-tribber but I believe that I can read and understand more clearly.
Now under this New Covenant its the H.G. that is the Israel of God...Thats y Jesus is saying that which is born of the Spirit is spirit..Which is the H.G. The Child of Promise...The gift of God is spirit which is the H.G....The Israel of God the seed of Christ...His seed his word etc...Which is Spirit...our new innerman is Spirit
....Jesus cd not refer to the H.G. as the Child of PROMISE if the H.G. were not the Multiplication of Christ Jesus in humanity via his seed the word.
That was the original Promise was when God swore by his very self...That Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven which is the H.G. which are Children of Promise....Spirits as God is Spirit...Thus the Israel of God are spirits that are gonna be born in us...We be the moma that are gonna birth the Children of Promise which is the H.G....Spirits...Jesus asked who is my mother them that hear the word and keeps it...We be just the moma a joint heir...If he knows us...But the Child is Spirit the H.G. the Child of promise...Thus the real Israel of God are spirits...our new innerman.
.....God wants a new Israel that are gonna come from his seed the WORD THE SEEDS OF THE SOWER...Which are spirits.
......Thats y Jesus is saying whosoever receiveth one such Child in my name receivth me...Thats the Child of Promise the H.G. The Israel of God....ok gbu
Paul was a very educated man and so,even as he was led to write what he did from the Holy Ghost sometimes the whole passage needs to be read so as to understand what was written in the first few verses.
The Jews are the chosen people of God and always will be. As part of God's plan, because his people rejected him the Gentiles were given the opportunity to receive him. Those who accepted him were considered part of the wild olive tree but we're grafted into the true olive tree. The Jews as a people are the broken branches that the gentiles replaced but God can graft them back into the tree.
All those who have accepted Christ will be raptured as stated in Matthew 24:29-31.
This is where I can only guess what happens next but think I have it right. After the battle of Armageddon and the events surrounding it, the thousand yr reign of Chris t will take place. This is what Isaiah 11 speaks to, where the wolf lies with the lamb, the child will play In the nest of the asp and the lion eats grass as the ox. The nation has been scattered when the anti-christ besieged the city of Jerusalem but now is regathered to become the chief of nations as Christ will be reigning as their King and they will accept him now. All the nations of the world will look to Israel as the nation with power and glory for Christ will be there as well.
Brother Alex, I quoted a scripture that seems to contradict what you were saying, let me say to those reading this; The Jews and Gentiles that Alex was speaking about are those in the FLESH whether they be Jew or Gentile, the flesh is to be done away with, the TRUE JEW is SPIRIT.
I believe that we are in agreement. I'm not saying I'm knowledgeable and am right but I believe I can understand what is written and try not to read into passages too much as to read between the lines and come up with anything that is not actually there at all.
The doctrines of man are had to overcome, but in God's TIME and PURPOSE: TRUTH will prevail.
Romans 2:28 For HE IS NOT A JEW which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29 But HE IS A JEW, which is one inwardly, and the circumcision is of the heart, IN THE SPIRIT, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Jeremiah 49:19 Behold, he (the Holy Ghost) shall come up like a lion from the swelling of Jordan against the habitation of the strong (Satan, the carnal mind): but I (the Holy Ghost) will suddenly make him (the chosen) run away from her ( Revelation 17:5): and who is a CHOSEN MAN, that I (the Holy Ghost) may APPOINT OVER HER ( Revelation 17:5)? For WHO IS LIKE ME (born of spirit, image of the Holy Ghost)? and who will appoint me the time? and who is that shepherd that will stand before me?
I do not generally judge a person's true spiritual condition, especially early in their profession. I did not have assurance I was really saved for several years after I got saved. I encourage new believers to follow on to grow in Christ and to give diligence to make their calling and election sure by continually taking heed to God's word.
Do you have a desire to be close to Christ? What gives you that desire? You are making a false accusation against me. I did not tell everyone I am right. I am simply sharing my belief, as you are yours. As far as my salvation goes, I am very secure in Christ Jesus. I believe in the eternal security of every believer, including you if you belong to Christ. If you believe that one day you can deny Christ and remove yourself from His hand, then you must also agree with me if I were to tell you that tomorrow you might deny Him. I mean, it is possible, right?
I can share many scriptures that persuade me to believe in the eternal security of the believer, but I've been in these conversations before, and no amount of scripture that I share with someone who is insecure in their salvation would change their mind. When it comes to my salvation, I place my trust completely in Christ. I cannot trust in myself to keep myself saved. As long as His Spirit is in me, I will always be saved, and He has promised to never leave.
You say that we can remove ourselves from the hand of God, except that the Bible says that God spread the universe with the span of His hand. That is a pretty big hand! In Ephesians Chapter 6, it says to be empowered in the Lord and in the grip of His strength."
Are you able to remove yourself from such a powerful grip?
I agree with you that a believer has an obligation to remain faithful to the Lord. In fact, that's what the Lord expects from us, faithfulness. He is faithful to us and He expects the same in return. But what is it that causes a believer to remain faithful? Is it our flesh, our human effort? Or is it the Spirit of Christ dwelling in a believer that causes them to remain faithful?
Just curious to know if you are faithful to Christ, and if so, what causes you to be faithful?
God is unchanging. His "dispensation" on how he communed with and saves people has changed, such as from the time of Adam and Eve to Noah, and from the Jews to Christians today. However, he is always consistent from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 that obedience is a must for salvation and not negotiable. And one thing that is clear from reading the Bible many times over the years is that God knows all, but, always gives us the choice and free will to do what is right.
As Christians, we stay in the love of Christ because we desire to be close to him and are led by the holy spirit. But we are not forced to stay in the love of Christ. Just as we got into the hands of God when we believed, we can also deny Christ and get right back out.
And I have not seen any bible verses directly from you to actually support "once saved always saved". I have seen a few others in this chat provide many scriptures and backed those verses with more verses, providing detailed explanations. You have just shared parts of verses out of context and told everyone you are right without backing it up with more verses.
Honestly Erich a great job presenting scripture and backing it up with a lot more scripture, going real in depth for conditional security. You just seem to be stuck on the same couple verses that are only part of a bigger picture that you are not mentioning because it will expose the fact the salvation really is conditional.
My prayer is that we will always continue in His blessings for us.
Love and Peace, little children!!!
It seems with Satan's role as the "accuser of the brethren" ( Revelation 12:10) that he focuses more on those who are saved than the rest of the world-for several reasons. For one thing; being the god of this world" (Corinthians) that men being already under his spell are better to not fear reality. Undoubtably; the enemy has learned that when the fear of God comes on someone as to their spiritual state they are more likely to turn to God. If the enemy of our souls affects us it starts in our minds; and when a weakness is exploited that leads to sin the carrot as it were switches to the accusations and oppression. It is because of our sin that he has legal authority to accuse us. He may also buffet us as occurred with Paul; or use people to go after us. This is; of course no battle to seek alone-we must trust God that Christ is sufficient-it is He who remains faithful even when we are not ( 2 Tim. 2:13). If we are rendered useless to produce fruit spiritually; that is enough to kill off our witness.
We need to understand that all our good works apart from Christ is "filthy rags" ( Isaiah 64:6). If we do have a healthy appreciation of that; we also need to see us as having a new nature (if truly we have examined ourselves in Christ to see if we are in the faith). The way to do this is to recognize His voice; and I pray that you can do that today. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. We; however fall at His feet realizing our unworthiness and undeservedness of His mercies. We still are capable of sin; but in Christ that is not truly who we are as our identity; but we are dying daily to self.
He chastises all He loves; that is different than destruction of His enemies.
I have a question?
What do you do when you depart this body of flesh? When only the spirit remains.
Hebrews 12:23 ....and to the spirits of just men made perfect....
Some of these men (apostles) were made perfect 2000 years ago; what have they been doing for 2000 years?
John 13:36 ....Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now (while you are in the flesh); but thou shall follow me afterwards (when only the spirit remains).
Christ is IN CREATION, (as the Holy Ghost), giving creation LIFE and bringing creation to TRUTH:
Ephesians 4:4 There is ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT ...
Ephesians 4:6 There is ONE GOD, and FATHER OF ALL...
God is LIFE and TRUTH.
When you leave this flesh and only spirit remains, you are ONE with GOD, ONE SPIRIT, ONE LIFE, ONE TRUTH.
Revelation 10:11 .....thou (John, also you as a ministering spirit) must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
John told the disciples to go unto ALL THE NATIONS preaching the kingdom of God; this is only possible after you become a spirit of a just man MADE PERFECT.
The IMAGE OF GOD.
GOD is SPIRIT.
God Bless YOU!
Your explanation is very helpful to me.
Good information: truth shines from the word of God. As you said the leaders of Jerusalem should have known. I believe they did know, in Matthew 2:3-6, that Jerusalem (chief priests and scribes) was also troubled. They knew the time, but God did to them what He did to Pharoah, He blinded and hardened their hearts, John 12:40. To me this kind of ties into the things S Spencer has been sharing.
There are other scriptures they were probably aware of, like Jeremiah 50:6 and Ezekiel 34 where God told Ezekiel to prophesy against the shepherds, (the leaders) and what God would do, Ezekiel 34:10.
So, they were troubled to hear Jesus was born. They did not even send anyone to Bethlehem to see. You would think they would have been jumping for joy, but they did not want to give up the power, wealth, and Moses's seat they had. Jesus the true Shepherd John 10:11 first came only for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24, fulfilling and confirming the covenant Hebrews 13:20. Jesus also told the scribes and the Pharisees their house is left to them desolate, and He will return Matthew 23:36-39.
Their duty as shepherds was over in that generation, 70 AD, and the sheep shall be gathered again, Isaiah 11:12 Ezekiel 37:21-22 Jeremiah 23:3 and more.
God bless,
RLW
It would be wise for us all to approach Scripture as you stated," not reading between the lines" to come up with an understanding of the Scripture text that alters the meaning of the text in the context of the passage.
And thanks for speaking about Replacement Theology as I was not familiar with it prior to coming to this site. So, now I can read up on it and become informed in order to speak to it on this forum. Being here has introduced me to so many theological ideas and doctrines I have not been exposed to. So I am researching these more and finding what the Scriptures mean concerning these so I can determine whether what is said is true to Scriptures or not.
Many of these doctrines have arose within the past century or so and reflect age old heresies refuted by the early church and others are just plain new ideas.
Others are doctrines that have been discussed among different camps for centuries since the Reformation.
I am learning so much here. I guess I have lived a fairly "sheltered" life among believers that hold to what is considered more orthodox beliefs (which I am thankful for), so when I read such diverse ideas I will then read up on these to learn more in order to participate well in a discussion.
You have been very helpful to me over my short time here. Thank You.
Revelation 17:5
Isaiah 28:6-8
Out of the north country shall come spoilers (those delivered from captivity of the Babylon of Revelation).
These spoliers are the Sons of God described in Joel 2 and Jeremiah 51:19-64
God Bless YOU!
The Bible should not be a confusing thing to understand. God is not the author of confusion, rather the author of truth. The truth is there for us to discover and understand but if we begin to insert our ideas into what we are reading then we will become confused and no scripture will seem to make sense.
From the time I was young...more than a few years ago...I was taught and always been a pre-trib person. Within the last few years questions arose and scripture verses and passage didn't match up. I began to read for myself and ...all of a sudden things began to clear up. I read the Bible with an open mind with no pre-conceived ideas of my own.
I'm no longer a pre-tribber but I believe that I can read and understand more clearly.
....Jesus cd not refer to the H.G. as the Child of PROMISE if the H.G. were not the Multiplication of Christ Jesus in humanity via his seed the word.
That was the original Promise was when God swore by his very self...That Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven which is the H.G. which are Children of Promise....Spirits as God is Spirit...Thus the Israel of God are spirits that are gonna be born in us...We be the moma that are gonna birth the Children of Promise which is the H.G....Spirits...Jesus asked who is my mother them that hear the word and keeps it...We be just the moma a joint heir...If he knows us...But the Child is Spirit the H.G. the Child of promise...Thus the real Israel of God are spirits...our new innerman.
.....God wants a new Israel that are gonna come from his seed the WORD THE SEEDS OF THE SOWER...Which are spirits.
......Thats y Jesus is saying whosoever receiveth one such Child in my name receivth me...Thats the Child of Promise the H.G. The Israel of God....ok gbu
Through kindness, love and humility our every work should reflect.
Our Savior Jesus Christ guide us perfectly always.
May happiness, patience, compassion and love be the tools by which this most important work is accomplished.
Protect and Bless me always, I pray Father Which Art In Heaven.
Thank you God, your mercy, grace and love sustain me forever and ever Amen.
Paul was a very educated man and so,even as he was led to write what he did from the Holy Ghost sometimes the whole passage needs to be read so as to understand what was written in the first few verses.
The Jews are the chosen people of God and always will be. As part of God's plan, because his people rejected him the Gentiles were given the opportunity to receive him. Those who accepted him were considered part of the wild olive tree but we're grafted into the true olive tree. The Jews as a people are the broken branches that the gentiles replaced but God can graft them back into the tree.
All those who have accepted Christ will be raptured as stated in Matthew 24:29-31.
This is where I can only guess what happens next but think I have it right. After the battle of Armageddon and the events surrounding it, the thousand yr reign of Chris t will take place. This is what Isaiah 11 speaks to, where the wolf lies with the lamb, the child will play In the nest of the asp and the lion eats grass as the ox. The nation has been scattered when the anti-christ besieged the city of Jerusalem but now is regathered to become the chief of nations as Christ will be reigning as their King and they will accept him now. All the nations of the world will look to Israel as the nation with power and glory for Christ will be there as well.
God Bless YOU!
God bless you and all you do.
God bless you.
The doctrines of man are had to overcome, but in God's TIME and PURPOSE: TRUTH will prevail.
Romans 2:28 For HE IS NOT A JEW which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29 But HE IS A JEW, which is one inwardly, and the circumcision is of the heart, IN THE SPIRIT, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Jeremiah 49:19 Behold, he (the Holy Ghost) shall come up like a lion from the swelling of Jordan against the habitation of the strong (Satan, the carnal mind): but I (the Holy Ghost) will suddenly make him (the chosen) run away from her ( Revelation 17:5): and who is a CHOSEN MAN, that I (the Holy Ghost) may APPOINT OVER HER ( Revelation 17:5)? For WHO IS LIKE ME (born of spirit, image of the Holy Ghost)? and who will appoint me the time? and who is that shepherd that will stand before me?
God Bless YOU!
I do not generally judge a person's true spiritual condition, especially early in their profession. I did not have assurance I was really saved for several years after I got saved. I encourage new believers to follow on to grow in Christ and to give diligence to make their calling and election sure by continually taking heed to God's word.
Are these not the same questions that hinder the heart and soul of man?
How to see, how to know the way?
Though they seem impossible, it is possible if we hear His words!
"I Am the way the truth and the Life!"
"If you have seen me ,you have seen the Father"
Repent and be Baptized