I do believe that there is only One God , as the Scriptures I gave state. But I also believe that Scriptures reveal that God exists as three distinct Persons. Not three Gods who are independent of one another nor of differing natures or substances. No! All Persons share the same divine nature and essence that is what God is. The Persons inter-dwell each other, as Jesus speaks in Jn. 10:30, 14:10-11; 16-17; 23; 13:31-32.
Anyone who believes in Jesus believes also in the Father, John12:44 and he who receives Jesus receives the Father. And he that sees Jesus sees the Father- Jn.12:45. 14:9. Whoever knows Jesus knows the Father- Jn.14:7. He that hates Jesus hates the Father, Jn. 15:23; All that the Father has is Jesus', too, and the Spirit receive from Jesus what the Father and Son possess, Jn. 16:14-15. The Father's glory is shared with Jesus- Jn. 17:5; Jesus came out from within the Father- Jn. 17:8; 16:28.
We are to honor Jesus as we honor the Father-in the same way, as our God - Jn.5:23.
I have spent the past two days studying what the Scriptures say about the deity of Jesus and about the Persons of the Godhead and find that Scriptures does teach that Jesus is God just as the Father is God and the Spirit is God AND that there is only one God.
This is what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. Only One God in essence and nature, but three distinct Persons indwelling one another in unity.
Jema, I can tell that you think this belief is incongruous. I think it is true, yet a mystery we cannot fathom fully but can believe because the Word teaches it to be so.
Instead of me going on and on citing dozens of Scriptures that show that prove these doctrines are true, I suggest that you do as I have done. Search the Scriptures. There are many websites you can go to also on these topics to find the Scriptures that people cite to support the doctrine of the deity of Jesus and the Triunity of God.
Your post made me think of the Scriptures that tell us that the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ was slain before creation Rev. 13:8. This speaks to the eternity Jesus possesses with the Father and the Spirit. Before anything was created, God was. The Father Son and Holy Spirit in one another as One God forever. How wonderful to consider.
But to think of the covenant made before creation for the Son to be the Savior of mankind through being slain on our behalf from before time began is sobering. We cannot imagine how that can be since we are bound by time and space. But God showed John in Revelation that this is so. How great God is, how merciful, how gracious to us.
But I also note your belief that 'repentance & belief' are considered as 'Works done towards salvation', therefore it can have no place before salvation. However, as I mentioned in my previous response to you that a spiritual awakening must take place first by the Holy Spirit to the one dead in sin & God-wards. And this awakening will cause the eyes of the spiritually blind to see (their sins & condemnation), to cry out in repentance, to believe on the Lord Jesus & to receive Him. This is not a works-generated effort towards salvation because the Holy Spirit is vitally involved in bringing the sinner (the Elect of God) to the foot of the Cross. It is all of God's Gracious Work - nothing of man's efforts. There is a difference when a sinner is being drawn of God as opposed to the sinner coming on his own terms & probably adding to his 'salvation'. True, the unregenerate man will never seek after the Lord, unless the Spirit is engaged in the hearing of the Gospel & conviction in the heart, but I can never understand how a sinner can be saved first & then repent & believe. GBU.
Thanks David0921. Concerning the Elect, my understanding from 1 Peter 1:2, is that those who are the Elect of God are such because of God's Foreknowledge; i.e. He knows beforehand who will be His and this of course, as the rest of that verse explains, are those who will be obedient to Christ & His Sacrifice and by the sanctifying Work of the Spirit. These facts are the marks of the Elect, the true believer - God's Foreknowledge of us already knows that to be His Elect, we would turn to the Cross & His Spirit would engage with us, and of course, we would first hear the Gospel & be convicted by its message.
You wrote, "God does not save anyone BECAUSE we Believe. But if and when God Saves an individual by His MERCY and GRACE alone, they will Believe. Our BELIEF, our REPENTANCE are good works that we do as a RESULT of our Salvation."
I'm sorry, but I can't agree to this, because how I'm reading your statement, is that salvation (i.e. the Spirit's regenerating Work in the sinner) comes first then the saved sinner repents & believes in Christ. To me, that is putting the cart before the horse. If a person receives salvation (forgiveness & regeneration) why would repentance & belief come after it? Surely, a sinner needs to repent of his sins first, calling upon the Name of the Lord to be saved. Even as Peter preached in Acts 3:19, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord"; this speaks of repentance & then conversion (regeneration), not the other way around.
Great thoughts there Rkroller & I can see your passion & concern over Christ's Church, for her development, & the accountability of both the leadership & the laity. As I read through it, my mind drifted to the fledgling NT Church, where the new members brought into the Church Body were very likely ignorant of not only the OT Scriptures, but also Christ's requirements for His Church. They would have been highly dependent on the apostles & those especially taught by them to take over in leadership, pastoring, & teaching, for their instruction in the faith & godly living.
The Church today, and I'm thinking more of the independent gatherings (i.e. those not governmental in structure), as probably having a good number of folk (both men & women) that might be better versed in theology & arguments in defence of the faith, than the elder/pastor himself. And this can be quite daunting to the one appointed to leadership, yet as you intimated, the Body is not in competition with each other to outdo one another, but in love & servitude, ensure the spiritual health & well-being of all. It might be that the leader might need help here - and so we need to lay all the matters, including our weaknesses & deficiencies, with the Holy Spirit Who will always ensure each individual develops into Christ-likeness & Christ's Church will remain vibrant & true to their Lord. But when wilfulness & sin are apparent & not addressed according to biblical guidance & warnings, I believe that Church is marked for rejection & self-destruction; and we have enough examples of this in Revelation chapters 2 & 3. These might exist as an external structure & a form of godliness, yet of no use in the Master's Hands & their light all but extinguished. The quality of the leaders both in biblical knowledge & Christian graces is paramount if the Church is to be led aright & experience the fullness of God's blessings.
If salvation was to the wicked whether you accept Christ or not and we all "including the wicked" will be ce gods whether we accept Christ or not, there is no need for righteous living.
And God's display of love in offering his only begotten Son on the cross was pointless and cruel.
That is not the Gospel of Christ!
Here is who's Gospel it is.
Genesis 3:4-5.
And the SERPENT said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and YE SHALL BE AS GODS, knowing good and evil.
Isaiah 12:14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
This origin is of Satan.
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15.
Also
Just because there is two opposing views on the deity of Christ.
If either side hates the other view, how is it possible join sides and to usher in this view or any other heresy to attack the Gospel and say that you are a child of God.
Jesus didn't have a mission to complete to "become" the unblemished Lamb of God.
Jesus took on the sins of the whole world. (THAT MEANS MADE AVAILABLE)
When we are born again "BORN OF GOD'S SPIRIT" We are saved!
We can no longer be charged with sin. 1 John 3:9.
The Holyspirit quicken these mortal bodies so we no longer "SERVE" sin. Romans 8:9-14.
There is no way for a child of Adam to be saved apart from being born from above. He was born with an inherited sin nature.
Unlike Jesus, we have to be born "Again" JESUS NEVER HAD TO DO THAT!
He was conceived of the Holyspirit. Matthew 1:20.
The penalty of sin was Judged/condemned/sentenced in the flesh. (In other words it was sin that was on trial, Not Jesus!
I believe that's what that phrase means. (Condemned sin in the flesh)
The meaning is separate from Jesus taking our judgment on the cross.
There is one event but two trials taken place here.
1) Our sins being Judged.
2) The penalty of sin, which is Death.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I think you might like to read an article I found online. Go to Life Hope and Truth church's website and find the article "God's 10 Commandments: Still Relevant Today?" I have no affiliation with this website or this church, I just found and believe this article gives a righteous answer to this question. Have a blessed day or night or afternoon? LOL
The bible states we certainly each get to choose. It's called freewill, that He gave each of us. So yes, God gives each person the chance to believe and accept Salvation! Jesus commanded the Gospel of the Kingdom to be preached throughout the world. When we hear The Gospel of Jesus Christ we get to choose! We can each choose to accept it - or reject it.
If we reject, nothing else is required for us to do, but to live our life in continual sin. If we believe and accept, then we must repent. We must then take all of the actions as commanded by Jesus/God.
Many people today that call themselves Christians, want their salvation without repenting! Matthew 4:17"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Luke 5:32"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
We must REPENT (stop sinning) if we want to be saved, and grafted into Christs Church (olive tree). If we expect to remain grafted into Christ's Church, each of us must REPENT and produce good fruit (good works) or we will be pruned/removed from the tree, as many of the Jews were already removed, because they did NOT believe, nor did they produce good fruit!
The bible tells us that our actions while living in this current life will determine our ultimate fate, Heaven or Hell, so its certainly OUR choice my friend.
This verse is talking about sinners before salvation who claim they are not sinners, those who want to live their own lives and are to proud to humble themselves to the existence of a righteous God. My mother was like that. She was deeply involved in a domination whose leader claimed there was no hell, other then the one you make for yourselves here on earth, so just be a good person and you will be ok.
I have a question - what is your definition of sin in this doctrine? Are you talking about real sin of disobedience to God or just faults and weaknesses we all face when we first get saved? God shows us these faults and weaknesses and as we pray and trust Him, He will help us overcome them and they will eventually go away. But sin puts enmity between us and God so how can we grow in Him if we are bringing enmity between ourselves and God? Romans 8:7 "and that he might reconcile both unto Him in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh." Those who believe in this doctrine, when I say I don't sin every day, are appalled and believe I'm being prideful. No pride, just peace in knowing I am living a godly life, without sin, because of being emersed in the blood of Jesus and under the power of the Holy Ghost. These doctrine diminishes the blood of Jesus and presents a weakened Holy Ghost.
RED APPLE TREATY 4 ME ONLY on Job 12:5 - 4 months ago
Job 12:9-11
9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of theLordhath wrought this?
10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
11Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat?
12With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.
13With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.
Do you believe that doth ear try words? the ancient wisdom can be use today and the keys unto woman?
I believe every one is born of God and has to have the ears to hear from him and mouth to eat from God but I still feel they choose whether or not how they have life.
Yes I believe and for me the ancient wisdom of God will work in current today with the keys of life unto woman! And I'm a private example and choose life from God to lengthen my days.
What I see in your comment is that "receiving Him" is something that we have to DO or NOT DO (not doing would be rejecting), and that it is ultimately up to US to either RECEIVE or NOT RECEIVE the gift of Salvation, as many teach. But again, that is a Salvation the rests ultimately on something we DO or do NOT DO. And those are "WORKS".
God DID NOT look down the the corridors of time before the foundation of the world and saw who would "receive Him" and who would not. And then chose to save those who would "receive Him".
What God sees is what we read in Rom 3. That is, NO ONE would seek Him nor "receive Him". But despite that, God made the decision to save certain of all those dirty rotten sinners whom He saw would not seek Him nor accept Him. These are what God refers to as the ELECT. And these are those for whom Christ died and paid the full penalty required by the Law of God for all of their sins. And obligated Himself to apply that Salvation to each and every one of those ELECT before their physical death by giving them a brand new Resurrected Soul, which in itself can never sin again (1 John), and make them New Creatures in Christ.
We do not know who are the ELECT of God. That is God's business not our business. We only know that God made that decision apart from any inherent goodness or righteousness in any one of us. If we are unsaved, we do not know whether or not we are one of God's ELECT. But God commands us to cry out to Him for Mercy as He begins opens our Spiritual eyes to our Spiritual condition and standing before the Law of God; that MAYBE God MIGHT save me. If we have become saved by God's Mercy we will begin to have the assurance of salvation as we see the desire in our heart to be more and more obedient to what God declares in His Word, the Bible, both in doctrine and in practice in our life.
We come to God with a broken and a contrite heart PLEADING for Salvation. Psalm 51:17Luke 18:13.
this is regarding Judgment, we will all be judged upon our works and deeds, I heard recently that a person that has lived a holy life and has strayed from Sin will be rewarded differently than a person that may have lived a sinful life and did not become Saved until later in life, once in His kingdom of Heaven what rewards will the "more holy life led man receive differently than the recently saved man? We will reach the gates of Heaven which is the goal, is there a reward system once you have crossed into Heaven? Can someone pleae explain to me? Reference Bible verses if possible
Absolutely ! Great explanation , thank you . We can do nothing of ourselves , to believe so is to believe that we have any righteousness of our own , which we do not .
Is belief, i.e faith (one is the verb the other the noun but the same word) a WORK? God answers that question in 2 Thes 1:11
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:
God commands us to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". And when we do that we are doing a "good work". But God is very clear that no work that we do can INITIATE nor MAINTAIN nor CONTRIBUTE to our Salvation in any way whatsoever.
God does not save anyone BECAUSE we Believe. But if and when God Saves an individual by His MERCY and GRACE alone, they will Believe. Our BELIEF, our REPENTANCE are good works that we do as a RESULT of our Salvation. And we will find in our life an earnest and ongoing desire to be OBEDIENT to any commandment of God, i.e the LAW of God.
If we are following a gospel where Salvation is the RESULT of any WORK that we do, we are trusting in a false gospel that cannot save.
So what must we do to be saved? THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO? We can only cry to God for His Mercy, like the Ninevites did in the very real hope that God might save us. And wait upon God to do a work of GRACE in our hearts if it is His good pleasure so to do.
Ezekiel 36:24-28 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
What does that mean and can anyone born of Adam do it?
If it means to judge against it or to sentence it. What is required to achieve this? Christ!
THE FACT THAT JESUS CAME IN THE FLESH AND LIVED A PERFECT LIFE APART FROM SIN DOESN'T DIRECTLY MEAN "CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH"
It's the fact that he in doing so, he destroyed the power and penalty of sin is where and how he condemned sin.
(For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.) Romans 8:2,
Adam was a living soul.
There are those born of Adam. "At one time we all were"
Jesus "A quickening spirit" ( God manifested in the flesh,) Born from above! "God/Christ spirit".
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH.
This life giving spirit of God in the flesh could not sin.
Christ didn't become a life giving spirit at Calvary.
Christ was a perfect Lamb "led" to slaughter. He didn't "become" perfect at Calvary!
An unblemished Lamb chosen for sacrifice is perfect before you sacrifice him.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:14.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Christ done what the law could not do. Condemn sin in the weak flesh.
This is the sin in our members that Paul speaks of in Romans 7:23.
How many? As many as fall willing victims to the Great Deceiver!
But here is the rub. We know the logs in our own eyes, and it makes us loathe to speak of the splinters in the eyes of someone glorying in a false sense of security, and thereby harming and soiling the very bride of Christ!
Is it more fearful to risk the approval of others than to fail to stand upon God's Word? I cannot balance my own sinful nature against another, and surely any sense of righteousness is like unto a filthy rag in the eyes of God.
I therefore pose a question based upon the Truth. Would any Christian parent be so willing to see their children led down a pathway to hell due to fear of condemnation?
What I am aiming toward in this discussion is the spiritual health of a body of believers.
Paul lashed out in I Corinthians against the behavior of a single member of that church and directed them to do what he would certainly do if he were present; put him out of the church.
As we know in the subsequent letter, Paul advised that they comfort - therefore forgive - that individual so as to spare him over much sorrow. But this did not imply that this individual be elevated to leadership! Such a matter has to fall within the purview of church government in the elders.
In all of the twists and turns of this discussion, arguments have been made from solid perspectives. The questions we need to ask of ourselves is whether or not we enter upon a search for answers with our own opinions in tow, or whether we ask for guidance in discerning that which is right and that which is wrong.
We should begin kneeling - not standing and preening. It is better to be a humble believer knowing that God is Love. He is also Holy and Just. Are we not also called to seek obedience to those attributes?
I refer you to the post I sent here below that show why I believe that Jesus is God. Are you willing to believe what John says here in chapter 1? the Word (the Son) is God and became flesh (Jesus). He never ceased to be God while in the flesh. He added a human nature to His divine nature in order to live the perfect human life for us and be our sacrifice.
Yes I agree, Rkroller with what you've shared here. Except, if such a sinning pastor/elder/teacher continues on in ministry, who then will remove him? Would any of the council/eldership call for his removal? As the world is continually numbed down in relation to serious moral/ethical matters, so to this apathy & fear of man has crept into the Church & made her a diluted misdirected group of ignorant souls, showing none of the Glory & Power of the Lord by their presence in the world. Of course, we might not know of God's Spirit's Work in that leader's life & that if he continues, that God Himself might remove him, so it is up to each Bible-believing, Bible-searching member of the Fellowship to judge his/her own position in such a situation. And of course, it's not only sins of the flesh that are brought to account, but also the great sin of mistreatment of God's Word. Anyway, how many of them are out there in the Churches, deceiving & being deceived?
Now, if you feel that "my decision to accept Christ of my own free will" is still a work towards Salvation, then it would be so if the Work of the Spirit was absent. There is no salvation where one decides to follow Christ without any regenerating Work. But when the Spirit is present, "accepting Christ" also equates to 'receiving Him', & that with gratitude. True, the sinner is completely dead spiritually & unable to muster faith to believe (which is a Gift of God anyway) - but what happens when the Holy Spirit is involved in the sinner to awaken the heart & open the eyes, that he might understand, repent, believe, & accept? I don't see this as Works - it's ALL of Grace. GBU
I believe, David 0921, that my "decision to accept Christ" was the response of a Work of God the Spirit before that. Let's look at the example in Acts 16:18-34 (of the Philippian Jailer & his salvation).
When he asked Paul & Silas, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?", Paul answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house". Clearly, the jailer had to do a work (= to believe). Was it a requirement to gain salvation which as you reminded us, is all of Grace alone? Not at all - it was a Response to receive the Gift- he had to believe to receive.
So what went on prior to this moment when the jailer cried out to know the way of Salvation? All we're told is that he witnessed an earthquake, saw prison doors flung open, & prisoners' chains falling off. What else took place? We're not told, but from we have before us, with the extraordinary events taking place before his eyes which he couldn't deny, caused him in a moment to re-examine his obstinacy towards the God of Israel, have a glimmer of the Truth from the witnessors search his heart, and of course, the Work of the Holy Spirit to convict.
In answer to the jailer's question, Paul said, "Believe". And no doubt when Paul & Silas "spake unto him the word of the Lord (the Gospel), and to all that were in his house", they would have acknowledged their sins & repented. True, Salvation is all of Grace, but the sinner still needs to repent (a work), & still needs to believe (a work). All these must take place prior to salvation being given - not after. None of it are contributions towards a person's salvation - but all are responses to the Spirit's Work.
John 10:34- seems to be a popular verse here. People want to believe they are a god, is that what's happening here? That would be a gross misinterpretation. You know this is a quote with a question mark at the end, right? Let's be honest about it. Here's the commentary for that:
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
Yes, Jema, I do believe that Jesus is God and the Father is God and the Spirit is God.
I do not have time tonight to bring the biblical verses for why I believe this. Please be patient and I will get back to you tomorrow on this topic. I have family commitment tonight. Blessings.
So Chris, if I'm understanding you correctly, You believe that you are saved because you made a decision to "accept" Christ of your own free will.
Or perhaps that God, before the foundation of the world, knew that you would be wise enough to accept a salvation that God offers and therefore chose you to become saved.
That is not what I read in the Bible concerning the nature of mankind that is DEAD in trespasses and sin and in BONDAGE to sin and Satan.
Nor is it what God declares regarding the nature of Salvation itself.
You are describing a salvation of grace + works. It is a do-it-yourself salvation program. Where Christ has done His part and now it's up to you to appropriate that salvation. That is a salvation plan that to one degree or another is taught in virtually every church of our day and is not the Salvation of the Bible.
Romans 3:10-18
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Salvation is all of grace. And is 100% the work of God. If we have become Saved, Our FAITH Our BELIEF Our OBEDIENCE is the RESULT of God having applied His Salvation to our life. It is in no way whatsoever the REASON nor the CAUSE of our Salvation.
Sorry F Major, I think you missed my point. God doesn't choose for some to go to Heaven & others to go to Hell. God determines that those who do not place their trust in Him & His Son have chosen for themselves to go to Hell. What I tried to indicate is that God, in His Foreknowledge, knows those who will come to Him and those who will reject Him - if someone rejects God, it doesn't mean that God is forcing him to reject God (for God is not willing that anyone should perish: 2 Peter 3:9). But God, in His Omniscient Character, knows all things about man - even how he will respond to Him. Man chooses for himself to reject God & this fact God already knows about.
Daniel 9:18-20 show how Daniel asked the Lord to remember the state of Jerusalem being in desolation and His promises (as seen in the book of Jeremiah) of reoccupation and return of the Jews after 70 years of exile (see Jeremiah 29:10). The sins of the people in question were something Daniel took on as a burden to himself in his prayers; fasting and supplications.
In terms of blessings of a general sort there is that of those who find a wife ( Prov. 18:22). There is also the offspring; or fruit of the womb that is specifically stated to be a blessing ( Deut. 7:13; and several passages in Psalms). Deuteronomy lists blessings for those who obey God's statutes and cursings for those who don't in extensive passages in Deuteronomy 28. As we look at God's chosen people in Exodus; clearly the Lord showed favor in physically delivering the Jews from Egypt; but as Romans 9:6 states not everyone benefitted from it. In fact only Joshua and Caleb survived from the first generation; even Moses was unable to enter the land but saw it from afar due to an isolated sin on his part ( Deut. 3:23 and following verses).
What we can count on in our sanctification and ultimate glorification ( Romans 8:30). All the prophetic scriptures will be fulfilled to the letter. This includes Israel being restored; the earth being renewed; Christ ruling in the Millennium; wars ending throughout the world; extended lifespans; etc.
The blessings of financial matters is promised for those who are living by faith (we see the example of Abraham in Genesis 13:2 as the first demonstration of this in scripture although technically the text of Job may be older as an example of God's financial blessings (see Job 1:16 and subsequent verses). Satan was well aware of God's provisions and favor and therefore we can be certain that he will attempt to thwart OR substitute God's blessings with his own which end up being dead ends and illusions.
I realize that it's difficult to let go of the Decalogue, as many of us have learned to recite it, as with the Lord's Prayer, from our early years. But I've come to realize that when we truly examine the purposes of certain Truths given to us in the Bible, we must be pliable enough to let go of that which no longer serves any purpose for those in Christ. Just think how hard it would have been for Paul to let go of the Law which was ingrained into his belief system & practise for so long. But then he could say what he did in Romans 8:2.
Maybe, you could share your understanding of this: why Paul could say that "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" ( Romans 7:12), and then proclaim his 'freedom from the Law that only revealed sin & led to his death'. Seems contradictory. Blessings.
Thank you Momsage, I would love to respond to you - I believe in good healthy discussions. And yes, you have made yourself very clear & I do note with joy that you truly love the Lord Jesus with all your heart.
The point of the argument here is, that you make reference to the Decalogue as "the foundation of knowledge...to Godly living", whereas I reject the Decalogue as having any part in a believer's life; that my 'foundation of knowledge' & faith, is based purely on what Christ has done on the Cross, the bringing in of the New Covenant in His Blood (the better Covenant, Hebrews 8:6-13), & the Spirit's Ministry in a believer's life.
When I consider the new life granted to me in Christ, how could I ever resort to a Law that was designed to show man (the Jew) his sin, his inability to keep the Law, & that only punishment would result? The Decalogue was limited to that - it offered absolutely no power to fully obey & grant salvation. The OT folk who placed their trust in God, looked & waited longingly to God to save them, and this God would do one day. How? Would it be by their obedience to the Law or through the Sacrifice of God's Son Who would open up the way for them also - a certainty into God's Presence?
The Decalogue is not God's complete set of Rules to reveal the innermost workings of man's evil sinful heart. It is but a snapshot of God's Requirements - and even here Israel failed, for who could keep His Laws perfectly (except the Holy Sinless One of God to come). If I fail the LORD by slipping into a sin, it certainly isn't the Decalogue that exposes it - it's the Holy Spirit in me Who convicts me of sin. Maybe, it is for this reason, that many believers feel it's okay to get angry, foster pride, use unholy language, etc.; Why? Well, "it's not in the Ten Commandments, so I'll be fine". But the Spirit searches out our innermost recesses for sin & quickly alerts us.
Getting back to you.
I do believe that there is only One God , as the Scriptures I gave state. But I also believe that Scriptures reveal that God exists as three distinct Persons. Not three Gods who are independent of one another nor of differing natures or substances. No! All Persons share the same divine nature and essence that is what God is. The Persons inter-dwell each other, as Jesus speaks in Jn. 10:30, 14:10-11; 16-17; 23; 13:31-32.
Anyone who believes in Jesus believes also in the Father, John12:44 and he who receives Jesus receives the Father. And he that sees Jesus sees the Father- Jn.12:45. 14:9. Whoever knows Jesus knows the Father- Jn.14:7. He that hates Jesus hates the Father, Jn. 15:23; All that the Father has is Jesus', too, and the Spirit receive from Jesus what the Father and Son possess, Jn. 16:14-15. The Father's glory is shared with Jesus- Jn. 17:5; Jesus came out from within the Father- Jn. 17:8; 16:28.
We are to honor Jesus as we honor the Father-in the same way, as our God - Jn.5:23.
I have spent the past two days studying what the Scriptures say about the deity of Jesus and about the Persons of the Godhead and find that Scriptures does teach that Jesus is God just as the Father is God and the Spirit is God AND that there is only one God.
This is what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. Only One God in essence and nature, but three distinct Persons indwelling one another in unity.
Jema, I can tell that you think this belief is incongruous. I think it is true, yet a mystery we cannot fathom fully but can believe because the Word teaches it to be so.
Instead of me going on and on citing dozens of Scriptures that show that prove these doctrines are true, I suggest that you do as I have done. Search the Scriptures. There are many websites you can go to also on these topics to find the Scriptures that people cite to support the doctrine of the deity of Jesus and the Triunity of God.
see pt. 3
Your post made me think of the Scriptures that tell us that the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ was slain before creation Rev. 13:8. This speaks to the eternity Jesus possesses with the Father and the Spirit. Before anything was created, God was. The Father Son and Holy Spirit in one another as One God forever. How wonderful to consider.
But to think of the covenant made before creation for the Son to be the Savior of mankind through being slain on our behalf from before time began is sobering. We cannot imagine how that can be since we are bound by time and space. But God showed John in Revelation that this is so. How great God is, how merciful, how gracious to us.
But I also note your belief that 'repentance & belief' are considered as 'Works done towards salvation', therefore it can have no place before salvation. However, as I mentioned in my previous response to you that a spiritual awakening must take place first by the Holy Spirit to the one dead in sin & God-wards. And this awakening will cause the eyes of the spiritually blind to see (their sins & condemnation), to cry out in repentance, to believe on the Lord Jesus & to receive Him. This is not a works-generated effort towards salvation because the Holy Spirit is vitally involved in bringing the sinner (the Elect of God) to the foot of the Cross. It is all of God's Gracious Work - nothing of man's efforts. There is a difference when a sinner is being drawn of God as opposed to the sinner coming on his own terms & probably adding to his 'salvation'. True, the unregenerate man will never seek after the Lord, unless the Spirit is engaged in the hearing of the Gospel & conviction in the heart, but I can never understand how a sinner can be saved first & then repent & believe. GBU.
Thanks David0921. Concerning the Elect, my understanding from 1 Peter 1:2, is that those who are the Elect of God are such because of God's Foreknowledge; i.e. He knows beforehand who will be His and this of course, as the rest of that verse explains, are those who will be obedient to Christ & His Sacrifice and by the sanctifying Work of the Spirit. These facts are the marks of the Elect, the true believer - God's Foreknowledge of us already knows that to be His Elect, we would turn to the Cross & His Spirit would engage with us, and of course, we would first hear the Gospel & be convicted by its message.
You wrote, "God does not save anyone BECAUSE we Believe. But if and when God Saves an individual by His MERCY and GRACE alone, they will Believe. Our BELIEF, our REPENTANCE are good works that we do as a RESULT of our Salvation."
I'm sorry, but I can't agree to this, because how I'm reading your statement, is that salvation (i.e. the Spirit's regenerating Work in the sinner) comes first then the saved sinner repents & believes in Christ. To me, that is putting the cart before the horse. If a person receives salvation (forgiveness & regeneration) why would repentance & belief come after it? Surely, a sinner needs to repent of his sins first, calling upon the Name of the Lord to be saved. Even as Peter preached in Acts 3:19, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord"; this speaks of repentance & then conversion (regeneration), not the other way around.
The Church today, and I'm thinking more of the independent gatherings (i.e. those not governmental in structure), as probably having a good number of folk (both men & women) that might be better versed in theology & arguments in defence of the faith, than the elder/pastor himself. And this can be quite daunting to the one appointed to leadership, yet as you intimated, the Body is not in competition with each other to outdo one another, but in love & servitude, ensure the spiritual health & well-being of all. It might be that the leader might need help here - and so we need to lay all the matters, including our weaknesses & deficiencies, with the Holy Spirit Who will always ensure each individual develops into Christ-likeness & Christ's Church will remain vibrant & true to their Lord. But when wilfulness & sin are apparent & not addressed according to biblical guidance & warnings, I believe that Church is marked for rejection & self-destruction; and we have enough examples of this in Revelation chapters 2 & 3. These might exist as an external structure & a form of godliness, yet of no use in the Master's Hands & their light all but extinguished. The quality of the leaders both in biblical knowledge & Christian graces is paramount if the Church is to be led aright & experience the fullness of God's blessings.
If salvation was to the wicked whether you accept Christ or not and we all "including the wicked" will be ce gods whether we accept Christ or not, there is no need for righteous living.
And God's display of love in offering his only begotten Son on the cross was pointless and cruel.
That is not the Gospel of Christ!
Here is who's Gospel it is.
Genesis 3:4-5.
And the SERPENT said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and YE SHALL BE AS GODS, knowing good and evil.
Isaiah 12:14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
This origin is of Satan.
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15.
Also
Just because there is two opposing views on the deity of Christ.
If either side hates the other view, how is it possible join sides and to usher in this view or any other heresy to attack the Gospel and say that you are a child of God.
Blessings.
Jesus took on the sins of the whole world. (THAT MEANS MADE AVAILABLE)
When we are born again "BORN OF GOD'S SPIRIT" We are saved!
We can no longer be charged with sin. 1 John 3:9.
The Holyspirit quicken these mortal bodies so we no longer "SERVE" sin. Romans 8:9-14.
There is no way for a child of Adam to be saved apart from being born from above. He was born with an inherited sin nature.
Unlike Jesus, we have to be born "Again" JESUS NEVER HAD TO DO THAT!
He was conceived of the Holyspirit. Matthew 1:20.
The penalty of sin was Judged/condemned/sentenced in the flesh. (In other words it was sin that was on trial, Not Jesus!
I believe that's what that phrase means. (Condemned sin in the flesh)
The meaning is separate from Jesus taking our judgment on the cross.
There is one event but two trials taken place here.
1) Our sins being Judged.
2) The penalty of sin, which is Death.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:49-57.
God bless.
The bible states we certainly each get to choose. It's called freewill, that He gave each of us. So yes, God gives each person the chance to believe and accept Salvation! Jesus commanded the Gospel of the Kingdom to be preached throughout the world. When we hear The Gospel of Jesus Christ we get to choose! We can each choose to accept it - or reject it.
If we reject, nothing else is required for us to do, but to live our life in continual sin. If we believe and accept, then we must repent. We must then take all of the actions as commanded by Jesus/God.
Many people today that call themselves Christians, want their salvation without repenting! Matthew 4:17"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Luke 5:32"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
We must REPENT (stop sinning) if we want to be saved, and grafted into Christs Church (olive tree). If we expect to remain grafted into Christ's Church, each of us must REPENT and produce good fruit (good works) or we will be pruned/removed from the tree, as many of the Jews were already removed, because they did NOT believe, nor did they produce good fruit!
The bible tells us that our actions while living in this current life will determine our ultimate fate, Heaven or Hell, so its certainly OUR choice my friend.
Read and Believe!
I have a question - what is your definition of sin in this doctrine? Are you talking about real sin of disobedience to God or just faults and weaknesses we all face when we first get saved? God shows us these faults and weaknesses and as we pray and trust Him, He will help us overcome them and they will eventually go away. But sin puts enmity between us and God so how can we grow in Him if we are bringing enmity between ourselves and God? Romans 8:7 "and that he might reconcile both unto Him in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh." Those who believe in this doctrine, when I say I don't sin every day, are appalled and believe I'm being prideful. No pride, just peace in knowing I am living a godly life, without sin, because of being emersed in the blood of Jesus and under the power of the Holy Ghost. These doctrine diminishes the blood of Jesus and presents a weakened Holy Ghost.
9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of theLordhath wrought this?
10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
11Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat?
12With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.
13With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.
Do you believe that doth ear try words? the ancient wisdom can be use today and the keys unto woman?
I believe every one is born of God and has to have the ears to hear from him and mouth to eat from God but I still feel they choose whether or not how they have life.
Yes I believe and for me the ancient wisdom of God will work in current today with the keys of life unto woman! And I'm a private example and choose life from God to lengthen my days.
What I see in your comment is that "receiving Him" is something that we have to DO or NOT DO (not doing would be rejecting), and that it is ultimately up to US to either RECEIVE or NOT RECEIVE the gift of Salvation, as many teach. But again, that is a Salvation the rests ultimately on something we DO or do NOT DO. And those are "WORKS".
God DID NOT look down the the corridors of time before the foundation of the world and saw who would "receive Him" and who would not. And then chose to save those who would "receive Him".
What God sees is what we read in Rom 3. That is, NO ONE would seek Him nor "receive Him". But despite that, God made the decision to save certain of all those dirty rotten sinners whom He saw would not seek Him nor accept Him. These are what God refers to as the ELECT. And these are those for whom Christ died and paid the full penalty required by the Law of God for all of their sins. And obligated Himself to apply that Salvation to each and every one of those ELECT before their physical death by giving them a brand new Resurrected Soul, which in itself can never sin again (1 John), and make them New Creatures in Christ.
We do not know who are the ELECT of God. That is God's business not our business. We only know that God made that decision apart from any inherent goodness or righteousness in any one of us. If we are unsaved, we do not know whether or not we are one of God's ELECT. But God commands us to cry out to Him for Mercy as He begins opens our Spiritual eyes to our Spiritual condition and standing before the Law of God; that MAYBE God MIGHT save me. If we have become saved by God's Mercy we will begin to have the assurance of salvation as we see the desire in our heart to be more and more obedient to what God declares in His Word, the Bible, both in doctrine and in practice in our life.
We come to God with a broken and a contrite heart PLEADING for Salvation. Psalm 51:17 Luke 18:13.
We don't DECIDE to be saved.
Is belief, i.e faith (one is the verb the other the noun but the same word) a WORK? God answers that question in 2 Thes 1:11
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:
God commands us to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". And when we do that we are doing a "good work". But God is very clear that no work that we do can INITIATE nor MAINTAIN nor CONTRIBUTE to our Salvation in any way whatsoever.
God does not save anyone BECAUSE we Believe. But if and when God Saves an individual by His MERCY and GRACE alone, they will Believe. Our BELIEF, our REPENTANCE are good works that we do as a RESULT of our Salvation. And we will find in our life an earnest and ongoing desire to be OBEDIENT to any commandment of God, i.e the LAW of God.
If we are following a gospel where Salvation is the RESULT of any WORK that we do, we are trusting in a false gospel that cannot save.
So what must we do to be saved? THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO? We can only cry to God for His Mercy, like the Ninevites did in the very real hope that God might save us. And wait upon God to do a work of GRACE in our hearts if it is His good pleasure so to do.
Ezekiel 36:24-28 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
What does that mean and can anyone born of Adam do it?
If it means to judge against it or to sentence it. What is required to achieve this? Christ!
THE FACT THAT JESUS CAME IN THE FLESH AND LIVED A PERFECT LIFE APART FROM SIN DOESN'T DIRECTLY MEAN "CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH"
It's the fact that he in doing so, he destroyed the power and penalty of sin is where and how he condemned sin.
(For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.) Romans 8:2,
Adam was a living soul.
There are those born of Adam. "At one time we all were"
Jesus "A quickening spirit" ( God manifested in the flesh,) Born from above! "God/Christ spirit".
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH.
This life giving spirit of God in the flesh could not sin.
Christ didn't become a life giving spirit at Calvary.
Christ was a perfect Lamb "led" to slaughter. He didn't "become" perfect at Calvary!
An unblemished Lamb chosen for sacrifice is perfect before you sacrifice him.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:14.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Christ done what the law could not do. Condemn sin in the weak flesh.
This is the sin in our members that Paul speaks of in Romans 7:23.
God bless.
But here is the rub. We know the logs in our own eyes, and it makes us loathe to speak of the splinters in the eyes of someone glorying in a false sense of security, and thereby harming and soiling the very bride of Christ!
Is it more fearful to risk the approval of others than to fail to stand upon God's Word? I cannot balance my own sinful nature against another, and surely any sense of righteousness is like unto a filthy rag in the eyes of God.
I therefore pose a question based upon the Truth. Would any Christian parent be so willing to see their children led down a pathway to hell due to fear of condemnation?
What I am aiming toward in this discussion is the spiritual health of a body of believers.
Paul lashed out in I Corinthians against the behavior of a single member of that church and directed them to do what he would certainly do if he were present; put him out of the church.
As we know in the subsequent letter, Paul advised that they comfort - therefore forgive - that individual so as to spare him over much sorrow. But this did not imply that this individual be elevated to leadership! Such a matter has to fall within the purview of church government in the elders.
In all of the twists and turns of this discussion, arguments have been made from solid perspectives. The questions we need to ask of ourselves is whether or not we enter upon a search for answers with our own opinions in tow, or whether we ask for guidance in discerning that which is right and that which is wrong.
We should begin kneeling - not standing and preening. It is better to be a humble believer knowing that God is Love. He is also Holy and Just. Are we not also called to seek obedience to those attributes?
I refer you to the post I sent here below that show why I believe that Jesus is God. Are you willing to believe what John says here in chapter 1? the Word (the Son) is God and became flesh (Jesus). He never ceased to be God while in the flesh. He added a human nature to His divine nature in order to live the perfect human life for us and be our sacrifice.
I will write more tomorrow with Scriptures.
Now, if you feel that "my decision to accept Christ of my own free will" is still a work towards Salvation, then it would be so if the Work of the Spirit was absent. There is no salvation where one decides to follow Christ without any regenerating Work. But when the Spirit is present, "accepting Christ" also equates to 'receiving Him', & that with gratitude. True, the sinner is completely dead spiritually & unable to muster faith to believe (which is a Gift of God anyway) - but what happens when the Holy Spirit is involved in the sinner to awaken the heart & open the eyes, that he might understand, repent, believe, & accept? I don't see this as Works - it's ALL of Grace. GBU
I believe, David 0921, that my "decision to accept Christ" was the response of a Work of God the Spirit before that. Let's look at the example in Acts 16:18-34 (of the Philippian Jailer & his salvation).
When he asked Paul & Silas, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?", Paul answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house". Clearly, the jailer had to do a work (= to believe). Was it a requirement to gain salvation which as you reminded us, is all of Grace alone? Not at all - it was a Response to receive the Gift- he had to believe to receive.
So what went on prior to this moment when the jailer cried out to know the way of Salvation? All we're told is that he witnessed an earthquake, saw prison doors flung open, & prisoners' chains falling off. What else took place? We're not told, but from we have before us, with the extraordinary events taking place before his eyes which he couldn't deny, caused him in a moment to re-examine his obstinacy towards the God of Israel, have a glimmer of the Truth from the witnessors search his heart, and of course, the Work of the Holy Spirit to convict.
In answer to the jailer's question, Paul said, "Believe". And no doubt when Paul & Silas "spake unto him the word of the Lord (the Gospel), and to all that were in his house", they would have acknowledged their sins & repented. True, Salvation is all of Grace, but the sinner still needs to repent (a work), & still needs to believe (a work). All these must take place prior to salvation being given - not after. None of it are contributions towards a person's salvation - but all are responses to the Spirit's Work.
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
Philippians 2:5-8
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 1:3
Matthew 28:19
1 Peter 1:2
2 Corinthians 13:14
Deuteronomy 6:4
John 14:10
John 20:28
1 John 2:22-24
Matthew 1:23-25
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Isaiah 7:14
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 43:11
I do not have time tonight to bring the biblical verses for why I believe this. Please be patient and I will get back to you tomorrow on this topic. I have family commitment tonight. Blessings.
Or perhaps that God, before the foundation of the world, knew that you would be wise enough to accept a salvation that God offers and therefore chose you to become saved.
That is not what I read in the Bible concerning the nature of mankind that is DEAD in trespasses and sin and in BONDAGE to sin and Satan.
Nor is it what God declares regarding the nature of Salvation itself.
You are describing a salvation of grace + works. It is a do-it-yourself salvation program. Where Christ has done His part and now it's up to you to appropriate that salvation. That is a salvation plan that to one degree or another is taught in virtually every church of our day and is not the Salvation of the Bible.
Romans 3:10-18
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Salvation is all of grace. And is 100% the work of God. If we have become Saved, Our FAITH Our BELIEF Our OBEDIENCE is the RESULT of God having applied His Salvation to our life. It is in no way whatsoever the REASON nor the CAUSE of our Salvation.
Daniel 9:18-20 show how Daniel asked the Lord to remember the state of Jerusalem being in desolation and His promises (as seen in the book of Jeremiah) of reoccupation and return of the Jews after 70 years of exile (see Jeremiah 29:10). The sins of the people in question were something Daniel took on as a burden to himself in his prayers; fasting and supplications.
In terms of blessings of a general sort there is that of those who find a wife ( Prov. 18:22). There is also the offspring; or fruit of the womb that is specifically stated to be a blessing ( Deut. 7:13; and several passages in Psalms). Deuteronomy lists blessings for those who obey God's statutes and cursings for those who don't in extensive passages in Deuteronomy 28. As we look at God's chosen people in Exodus; clearly the Lord showed favor in physically delivering the Jews from Egypt; but as Romans 9:6 states not everyone benefitted from it. In fact only Joshua and Caleb survived from the first generation; even Moses was unable to enter the land but saw it from afar due to an isolated sin on his part ( Deut. 3:23 and following verses).
What we can count on in our sanctification and ultimate glorification ( Romans 8:30). All the prophetic scriptures will be fulfilled to the letter. This includes Israel being restored; the earth being renewed; Christ ruling in the Millennium; wars ending throughout the world; extended lifespans; etc.
The blessings of financial matters is promised for those who are living by faith (we see the example of Abraham in Genesis 13:2 as the first demonstration of this in scripture although technically the text of Job may be older as an example of God's financial blessings (see Job 1:16 and subsequent verses). Satan was well aware of God's provisions and favor and therefore we can be certain that he will attempt to thwart OR substitute God's blessings with his own which end up being dead ends and illusions.
( 1 Peter 5:8).
I realize that it's difficult to let go of the Decalogue, as many of us have learned to recite it, as with the Lord's Prayer, from our early years. But I've come to realize that when we truly examine the purposes of certain Truths given to us in the Bible, we must be pliable enough to let go of that which no longer serves any purpose for those in Christ. Just think how hard it would have been for Paul to let go of the Law which was ingrained into his belief system & practise for so long. But then he could say what he did in Romans 8:2.
Maybe, you could share your understanding of this: why Paul could say that "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" ( Romans 7:12), and then proclaim his 'freedom from the Law that only revealed sin & led to his death'. Seems contradictory. Blessings.
Thank you Momsage, I would love to respond to you - I believe in good healthy discussions. And yes, you have made yourself very clear & I do note with joy that you truly love the Lord Jesus with all your heart.
The point of the argument here is, that you make reference to the Decalogue as "the foundation of knowledge...to Godly living", whereas I reject the Decalogue as having any part in a believer's life; that my 'foundation of knowledge' & faith, is based purely on what Christ has done on the Cross, the bringing in of the New Covenant in His Blood (the better Covenant, Hebrews 8:6-13), & the Spirit's Ministry in a believer's life.
When I consider the new life granted to me in Christ, how could I ever resort to a Law that was designed to show man (the Jew) his sin, his inability to keep the Law, & that only punishment would result? The Decalogue was limited to that - it offered absolutely no power to fully obey & grant salvation. The OT folk who placed their trust in God, looked & waited longingly to God to save them, and this God would do one day. How? Would it be by their obedience to the Law or through the Sacrifice of God's Son Who would open up the way for them also - a certainty into God's Presence?
The Decalogue is not God's complete set of Rules to reveal the innermost workings of man's evil sinful heart. It is but a snapshot of God's Requirements - and even here Israel failed, for who could keep His Laws perfectly (except the Holy Sinless One of God to come). If I fail the LORD by slipping into a sin, it certainly isn't the Decalogue that exposes it - it's the Holy Spirit in me Who convicts me of sin. Maybe, it is for this reason, that many believers feel it's okay to get angry, foster pride, use unholy language, etc.; Why? Well, "it's not in the Ten Commandments, so I'll be fine". But the Spirit searches out our innermost recesses for sin & quickly alerts us.