Hi Ronald , thank you for your excellent reply to me , my mind was going in a different direction :) . I was thinking about all those new testament scriptures , here are just a few : Matt 11-27 , John 6-46 , John 8-19 , John 10-30+37+38 , John 14-6to31 . I think that in the sermon on the mount , Jesus is referring to the Spirit of God which is in him . The pure in heart shall see God , they shall recognise the Spirit of God which Jesus recieved without measure . God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself . Some people will see that and accept it and others won't see it or will see it but reject it , John 10-25to38 and John 3-2 . Your answer was perfect , thank you .
There is no contradiction, we see in Exodus 33:20-23 God told Moses he cannot see my face and no man can see me and live, so God showed Moses His backside, that is the closest any person has come to seeing God. Matt. 5:8 Jesus says those pure in heart meaning those who are amongst the saints/saved will see God. Job knew this as he says in Job 19:26, his glorified flesh/body.
We have our confirmation in Revelation 22:3-4 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
We will see God's face and the Lamb/Jesus for they will be the light and the temple of the new earth and the new Jerusalem, Revelation 21:22-23.
I shouldn't need to re-state again David0921, but I believe that repentance & believing in Christ does NOT add to or secure our salvation in any way, shape or form - only Jesus' Death for our sins makes full payment & secures entirely. Only anything that is added to it (e.g. doing extra good works to ensure that any 'lack' in Christ's Work can be added as an extra guarantee) demeans the Work of the Cross & would grieve the Heart of God. But as I stated, when the Holy Spirit is at work in the sinner, to bring in light & understanding, to draw to conviction of sin, to repent calling upon Jesus, I find in no way that this can be classified as Works. These are responses to the Spirit's Work & never add to the Work of Salvation. But if you still feel that it does, then really not much more can be added to this point.
The verses I shared earlier to show that repentance & belief are necessary after one hears the Gospel message are certainly not isolated in clear teaching for us, or else the apostles had it wrong in their delivery of the Gospel & instruction in what must be done to be saved. So the questions that arise in my mind from what you've shared are:
a. what is the need to preach the Gospel (according to Christ's Command), seeing that repentance & believing (Works to you) can only follow conversion/rebirth?
b. then, if the Elect (i.e. one who is chosen to be saved & accepted at the outset) has no need to hear or be challenged by the Gospel (since he is elected/accepted already), at what point in his 'Christian experience' will he sense a need to repent & believe? I simply cannot fathom such a situation.
Maybe you have answers to clarify, or even share if you choose to do so, how you were 'saved' under such a belief of 'salvation first, then repentance & belief after'. Since I've never heard of such a thing, I would be interested in a practical example to consider further. Thank you.
Jesus taught in parables and object lessons to make things easy to understand. Marriage is the object lesson for the trinity question.
The marriage of two people becoming onetwo people united in purpose plan and action. The marriage of two people who will act as one unit but the married couple are two different beings.
This is an object lesson given to us by God to help us understand the trinity. Three separate beings united as one in purpose, plan, and action.
It's really very simple and not complicated at all.
No one has seen God the Father whose glory would kill us in an instant, due to our sinfulness. However, God was seen by Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Joshua, as the Angel of the LORD. The Angel of the LORD is Jesus Christ.
When there are those in power who want to take away or diminish that which is truly good about our nation and instead support that which is not good and damaging to our nation and therefore to the world at large we should be prayerful and concerned. We should desire for our country to be one that God can use for good and for the advancement of the kingdom of God. We should be citizens who know our rights and our history so that we can know what we wish to stand for, fight for, and preserve.
Our rights as citizens are rights that are NOT given to us by the government, but come from God and reflect the freedom we have as Christians. If Believers will use these rights to do good, help one another, protect themselves and their neighbor, value the freedoms we are blessed to possess, and use our time in this world in this great country to further the cause of Christ in the world and be a defense against the ungodly ways of those who despise our Lord and Savior.
We in the U.S. have lived two centuries with these rights in place. Some of us have recent experiences with prejudice and restrictions on our basic human rights, bit most of us do not know what it is like to not be free in one's life, home, community, and country. if we knew such a lack of freedom first had, we would surely resist all the more anything that the government does to restrict the rights enumerated in our bill of rights and constitution (both of which were adopted as supreme law that cannot be overturned or altered by any other law that government may pass). The bill of rights and constitution was meant by the founders to be inalienable and not able to be reversed or impinged or overridden by government or by other citizen seeking to restrict these rights and constitutional law. These two pillars of our government ensure that we stay free and responsible as citizens.
So, we do need to pray more for God to intervene in our affairs in this nation.
It let's us know that this perfect Lamb was chosen with the foreknowledge of success.
It also let's us know that God knew Adam and every one after him would fall short. .
It gad to be the last Adam. .
A life giving Spirit!!
Not a living soul.
A quickening spirit that has no beginning or ending and took on flesh, ministered here on earth, gave his spirit to those who trust in him to become sons and daughters of God.
Then he returned to his former Glory that he had in the Godhead.
Today, and foe many years now, Preachers don't preach and acknowledge the truth about sin, and everlasting hell, and they are leading their congregations straight down the wide path to hell! Matthew 25:41James 3:1
We MUST fear God! This is the very beginning of knowledge. Proverbs 1:7
God is Vengeful and He tells us so. Hell is God's way of getting His vengeance. Isaiah 47:3
God knows us better than we could ever imagine. He knows, that if we have NO FEAR to motivate us to change our ways, we will continue in sin. God is also Love. He sacrificed his Son for us so thru Him we can recieved forgivness. He provides His Holy Spirit to break the bonds of sin. Preachers are not helping anyone by not preaching Hell and the fear of God!
If we are still repeatedly sinning..we DO NOT have God's Holy Spirit. Hebrews 10:26 God's Holy Spirit will not let us habitually sin.
Today, most so called Christian Pastors/Preachers are about the money. They don't want to focus on the sin in their congregation, if they do, they will lose their entire congregation. Sinners don't want to hear they are sinners, and they certainly don't want to think or hear about hell, they come to church to feel good about themselves and to be entertained. Churches today are all about making everyone feel good. Sad but true.
Which reminds me of this very powerful verse 2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"
I fully agree with your position. What is symbolic generally applies to the Will of God. (The world unseen made to appear). Thus the slain Lamb ("the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world",-Re.13:8) is an emblem. Consequently we the same as sign, fulfillment of it is in Jesus Christ. "Behold the Lamb of the world" The expression 'Behold' emphasizes the word connection. In the eternity it is a composite image of the Throne of God and of the Lamb. (Re.22:1).The Will requires no correction whatsoever. Symbol is "I am the Life" literally embodied in the believer (died to the world in terms of its appetites and outward pomp and circumstance)
Where Jesus made manifest it must be literally followed. For instance, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me" Matt. 11:28-29 'The yoke is not literal' but abiding in Christ means there is a caveat, "You cannot serve both God and man"; You cannot deny him etc.,. By the same token, "And I will give you rest," is with regards to our souls. This can only be taken in faith. He.11:3 There are no buts and ifs between these two worlds, faith is the only lingua franca.
I know the Bible is Symbolic and in many areas must be interpreted. But the best way to understand God's Word is to take it as literal as possible. When it says You can have Your Name Removed from the Lamb's Book of Life . That's what it means. It doesn't make a clause for Church goers, those who confessed Christ or knelt at a Alter . I can Accept The Mercy and Grace and Salvation of Jesus Christ and then be like Paul said . I could walk out of that Salvation and be a Reject of God. A goat on the Left . Even after I have been active in the Church, held positions, had a respect of others, tithed, Preached to Others. I still have to Die Daily . There are going to be so many that They get so close to The Things of Heaven. They will look in and Miss This Thing. Ask Judas Iscariot. If You Miss The Rapture You have Missed Everything.There are so many in ministry today adding and taking away from the Bible. God warned constantly of False Prophets in the Old Testament and the New doesn't cut any slack either. Grace has raised the standards . Man doesn't have a license to Sin and rise to meet Christ in the air. Your Salvation is Secure and Eternal when I or You get there . There are a 100 Verses in The New Testament alone that destroys the " Once Saved always Saved , live any Ol way ) This is the same Spirit that sat on Israel when They Blasphemed God . And it is hard to find a Minister that will warn People how real Hell really is . And how We cannot Afford to neglect so Great a Salvation. Jesus is Coming like a Thief in the Night. But there is Good News So We Must Always Remember that ALL WHO CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED. AMEN
May I ask , what do people think about Matthew Ch 5 V 8 , considering that we are told that no man hath seen God , no man can see God and live etc ? Is this a contradiction ? What do people think about this please ?
Thank you, there is no reason to post more you have answered my questions. I have studied John and all the New Testament and as you see this doctrine, I do not see it was taught in any of the books of the New Testament that we must believe it for salvation. What I do see is the only way of salvation is belief in Jesus our Lord Messiah the Son of God sent by the Father. Galatians 4:4
In John, I see a loving Son obedient to the Father who Jesus says is greater than Him. When Jesus was anointed with the Spirit of God without limit or measure the Father who dwelt in Jesus is the one who did the works. John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
All that Jesus had was given to Him from the Father, John 17:1-3 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Thank you for discussing this with me may our love for each other overcome any disagreement.
We can find verses, that when isolated, can seem to teach that OUR WORKS of Believing and Repentance are contributory TOWARDS our salvation. But in coming to an understanding of any doctrine in the Bible we must harmonize every verse in Scripture that relates to the question.
When we do this, we must conclude that our GOOD WORKS of any sort are the RESULT of God's gift of salvation which He bestows on each and every one of His elect, not BECAUSE we do these things but as the EVIDENCE and CHARACTER of a New Creation in Christ as we read in the Galatians and Romans passages I quoted earlier and many others.
The passage that, in my view, speaks most clearly regarding the Nature of Salvation is Ezekiel 36:24-34. Note here that every action is God's action, not man's action. And that our Repentance and Belief are the RESULT of God's actions in salvation, never the CAUSE nor the REASON.
I want to be a million miles away from any Gospel that even hints that our works contribute in any way to our Salvation.
By Grace are you saved through faith(Christ's faith not our faith). And that not of ourselves. It is the gift of God in His in comprehensible Mercy. Not of our works lest any man should boast. (forgive me for not quoting chapter and verse for these last statements, but I'm sure you are familiar).
I never want to be that man in Numbers who picked up a few sticks on the Sabbath and was executed for that seemingly incidental sin. A dramatic picture of what happens if we look to any good work that we do or have done to affect our salvation.
Well maybe David0921 I may have misunderstood you (which caused you to be puzzled). You did state, "God does not save anyone BECAUSE we Believe. But if and when God Saves an individual by His MERCY and GRACE alone, they will Believe. Our BELIEF, our REPENTANCE are good works that we do as a RESULT of our Salvation." When I read this statement, it appeared you're stating that Belief & Repentance are necessary (good works) but are the result (could read it as, products) of our Salvation. If something results from an activity, it is assumed that the activity takes place first. So, if Salvation comes first, then how does Belief & Repentance result from it?
As well, in this last comment from you, you write, "Repentance and Belief of someone whom God has saved or plans to savedoes NOT contribute in any way whatsoever TOWARDS their salvation. These are good works that we do because God has saved us or in the process of drawing us to salvation". So even here it seems that Repentance and Belief, though non-contributing to salvation (and I agree to this part), but are evidences post-Salvation or during Salvation. Maybe your thought of Repentance is the continual attitude of the believer in his day-to-day life/warfare, and not of an initial repentance required for salvation; or even, if someone is the Elect of God, he must be saved from the beginning even as a sinner, but only has to repent & believe when he realizes his state. So, I too remain perplexed for I too don't believe that Repentance & Belief can be added to God's Gift of Salvation or else they would be considered as Works; YET I know that Repentance & Belief are necessary to grant Salvation ( Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 8:22; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9).
You ask Do you need to believe in the Trinity to be saved and be a Christian.
For me, I think that it is important for people to believe the truth about Jesus and the God's Being as shown in Scripture. One can come to Christ on very little knowledge of Jesus and even the depth of the Gospel and will be received. But I do think that once someone does come to Jesus and they learn what Scripture teaches and rejects what is taught in Scripture about the deity of Jesus and the Triune nature of God (see the last supper discourse in john) then one becomes an apostate and is in spiritual danger since they are worshipping a false image of God and Jesus and have fallen into idolatry.
Can I show you where in Scripture this doctrine is taught that one must believe it to be saved?
In reply to this question, my best advice is for you to study the Scriptures for yourself, as citing the dozens of Scripture that speak to the deity of Jesus and the Triune nature of God would involve very lengthy postings here and I don't wish to do that when you can find the information you are looking for on the web easily. Just type in the question and you can read what you wish.
And the last question is : If Jesus is God and God cannot be tempted or sin, how can he truly be tempted and how can He fulfill the law that man was under and condemn sin in the flesh?
I believe that Son of God is both fully God and fully human in the Person of Jesus. That Jesus is one Person with two natures and these natures do not intermix. As God He cannot be tempted, or sin. But His human nature could be tempted and could sin. But since every act of Jesus is done by the Son of God, who is the only Person present in Jesus, He would never sin due to His divine nature.
Jesus did live a perfect human life as a true man, thus fulfilling all the law for us. And in doing so, He condemned sin in His flesh by His perfect life and sacrifice, conquering the law.
Sorry, I posted a response but apparently posted to my response to you. You can check for it on this thread.
Here is part 2
I hope you will do the research for yourself that I have done for myself. Let me know when you have done so and we can talk more. If you do not wish to check things out for yourself, then I don't think we really have anything more to talk about on this topic.
I do believe that there is only One God , as the Scriptures I gave state. But I also believe that Scriptures reveal that God exists as three distinct Persons. Not three Gods who are independent of one another nor of differing natures or substances. No! All Persons share the same divine nature and essence that is what God is. The Persons inter-dwell each other, as Jesus speaks in Jn. 10:30, 14:10-11; 16-17; 23; 13:31-32.
Anyone who believes in Jesus believes also in the Father, John12:44 and he who receives Jesus receives the Father. And he that sees Jesus sees the Father- Jn.12:45. 14:9. Whoever knows Jesus knows the Father- Jn.14:7. He that hates Jesus hates the Father, Jn. 15:23; All that the Father has is Jesus', too, and the Spirit receive from Jesus what the Father and Son possess, Jn. 16:14-15. The Father's glory is shared with Jesus- Jn. 17:5; Jesus came out from within the Father- Jn. 17:8; 16:28.
We are to honor Jesus as we honor the Father-in the same way, as our God - Jn.5:23.
I have spent the past two days studying what the Scriptures say about the deity of Jesus and about the Persons of the Godhead and find that Scriptures does teach that Jesus is God just as the Father is God and the Spirit is God AND that there is only one God.
This is what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. Only One God in essence and nature, but three distinct Persons indwelling one another in unity.
Jema, I can tell that you think this belief is incongruous. I think it is true, yet a mystery we cannot fathom fully but can believe because the Word teaches it to be so.
Instead of me going on and on citing dozens of Scriptures that show that prove these doctrines are true, I suggest that you do as I have done. Search the Scriptures. There are many websites you can go to also on these topics to find the Scriptures that people cite to support the doctrine of the deity of Jesus and the Triunity of God.
Your post made me think of the Scriptures that tell us that the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ was slain before creation Rev. 13:8. This speaks to the eternity Jesus possesses with the Father and the Spirit. Before anything was created, God was. The Father Son and Holy Spirit in one another as One God forever. How wonderful to consider.
But to think of the covenant made before creation for the Son to be the Savior of mankind through being slain on our behalf from before time began is sobering. We cannot imagine how that can be since we are bound by time and space. But God showed John in Revelation that this is so. How great God is, how merciful, how gracious to us.
But I also note your belief that 'repentance & belief' are considered as 'Works done towards salvation', therefore it can have no place before salvation. However, as I mentioned in my previous response to you that a spiritual awakening must take place first by the Holy Spirit to the one dead in sin & God-wards. And this awakening will cause the eyes of the spiritually blind to see (their sins & condemnation), to cry out in repentance, to believe on the Lord Jesus & to receive Him. This is not a works-generated effort towards salvation because the Holy Spirit is vitally involved in bringing the sinner (the Elect of God) to the foot of the Cross. It is all of God's Gracious Work - nothing of man's efforts. There is a difference when a sinner is being drawn of God as opposed to the sinner coming on his own terms & probably adding to his 'salvation'. True, the unregenerate man will never seek after the Lord, unless the Spirit is engaged in the hearing of the Gospel & conviction in the heart, but I can never understand how a sinner can be saved first & then repent & believe. GBU.
Thanks David0921. Concerning the Elect, my understanding from 1 Peter 1:2, is that those who are the Elect of God are such because of God's Foreknowledge; i.e. He knows beforehand who will be His and this of course, as the rest of that verse explains, are those who will be obedient to Christ & His Sacrifice and by the sanctifying Work of the Spirit. These facts are the marks of the Elect, the true believer - God's Foreknowledge of us already knows that to be His Elect, we would turn to the Cross & His Spirit would engage with us, and of course, we would first hear the Gospel & be convicted by its message.
You wrote, "God does not save anyone BECAUSE we Believe. But if and when God Saves an individual by His MERCY and GRACE alone, they will Believe. Our BELIEF, our REPENTANCE are good works that we do as a RESULT of our Salvation."
I'm sorry, but I can't agree to this, because how I'm reading your statement, is that salvation (i.e. the Spirit's regenerating Work in the sinner) comes first then the saved sinner repents & believes in Christ. To me, that is putting the cart before the horse. If a person receives salvation (forgiveness & regeneration) why would repentance & belief come after it? Surely, a sinner needs to repent of his sins first, calling upon the Name of the Lord to be saved. Even as Peter preached in Acts 3:19, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord"; this speaks of repentance & then conversion (regeneration), not the other way around.
Great thoughts there Rkroller & I can see your passion & concern over Christ's Church, for her development, & the accountability of both the leadership & the laity. As I read through it, my mind drifted to the fledgling NT Church, where the new members brought into the Church Body were very likely ignorant of not only the OT Scriptures, but also Christ's requirements for His Church. They would have been highly dependent on the apostles & those especially taught by them to take over in leadership, pastoring, & teaching, for their instruction in the faith & godly living.
The Church today, and I'm thinking more of the independent gatherings (i.e. those not governmental in structure), as probably having a good number of folk (both men & women) that might be better versed in theology & arguments in defence of the faith, than the elder/pastor himself. And this can be quite daunting to the one appointed to leadership, yet as you intimated, the Body is not in competition with each other to outdo one another, but in love & servitude, ensure the spiritual health & well-being of all. It might be that the leader might need help here - and so we need to lay all the matters, including our weaknesses & deficiencies, with the Holy Spirit Who will always ensure each individual develops into Christ-likeness & Christ's Church will remain vibrant & true to their Lord. But when wilfulness & sin are apparent & not addressed according to biblical guidance & warnings, I believe that Church is marked for rejection & self-destruction; and we have enough examples of this in Revelation chapters 2 & 3. These might exist as an external structure & a form of godliness, yet of no use in the Master's Hands & their light all but extinguished. The quality of the leaders both in biblical knowledge & Christian graces is paramount if the Church is to be led aright & experience the fullness of God's blessings.
If salvation was to the wicked whether you accept Christ or not and we all "including the wicked" will be ce gods whether we accept Christ or not, there is no need for righteous living.
And God's display of love in offering his only begotten Son on the cross was pointless and cruel.
That is not the Gospel of Christ!
Here is who's Gospel it is.
Genesis 3:4-5.
And the SERPENT said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and YE SHALL BE AS GODS, knowing good and evil.
Isaiah 12:14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
This origin is of Satan.
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15.
Also
Just because there is two opposing views on the deity of Christ.
If either side hates the other view, how is it possible join sides and to usher in this view or any other heresy to attack the Gospel and say that you are a child of God.
Jesus didn't have a mission to complete to "become" the unblemished Lamb of God.
Jesus took on the sins of the whole world. (THAT MEANS MADE AVAILABLE)
When we are born again "BORN OF GOD'S SPIRIT" We are saved!
We can no longer be charged with sin. 1 John 3:9.
The Holyspirit quicken these mortal bodies so we no longer "SERVE" sin. Romans 8:9-14.
There is no way for a child of Adam to be saved apart from being born from above. He was born with an inherited sin nature.
Unlike Jesus, we have to be born "Again" JESUS NEVER HAD TO DO THAT!
He was conceived of the Holyspirit. Matthew 1:20.
The penalty of sin was Judged/condemned/sentenced in the flesh. (In other words it was sin that was on trial, Not Jesus!
I believe that's what that phrase means. (Condemned sin in the flesh)
The meaning is separate from Jesus taking our judgment on the cross.
There is one event but two trials taken place here.
1) Our sins being Judged.
2) The penalty of sin, which is Death.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I think you might like to read an article I found online. Go to Life Hope and Truth church's website and find the article "God's 10 Commandments: Still Relevant Today?" I have no affiliation with this website or this church, I just found and believe this article gives a righteous answer to this question. Have a blessed day or night or afternoon? LOL
The bible states we certainly each get to choose. It's called freewill, that He gave each of us. So yes, God gives each person the chance to believe and accept Salvation! Jesus commanded the Gospel of the Kingdom to be preached throughout the world. When we hear The Gospel of Jesus Christ we get to choose! We can each choose to accept it - or reject it.
If we reject, nothing else is required for us to do, but to live our life in continual sin. If we believe and accept, then we must repent. We must then take all of the actions as commanded by Jesus/God.
Many people today that call themselves Christians, want their salvation without repenting! Matthew 4:17"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Luke 5:32"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
We must REPENT (stop sinning) if we want to be saved, and grafted into Christs Church (olive tree). If we expect to remain grafted into Christ's Church, each of us must REPENT and produce good fruit (good works) or we will be pruned/removed from the tree, as many of the Jews were already removed, because they did NOT believe, nor did they produce good fruit!
The bible tells us that our actions while living in this current life will determine our ultimate fate, Heaven or Hell, so its certainly OUR choice my friend.
This verse is talking about sinners before salvation who claim they are not sinners, those who want to live their own lives and are to proud to humble themselves to the existence of a righteous God. My mother was like that. She was deeply involved in a domination whose leader claimed there was no hell, other then the one you make for yourselves here on earth, so just be a good person and you will be ok.
I have a question - what is your definition of sin in this doctrine? Are you talking about real sin of disobedience to God or just faults and weaknesses we all face when we first get saved? God shows us these faults and weaknesses and as we pray and trust Him, He will help us overcome them and they will eventually go away. But sin puts enmity between us and God so how can we grow in Him if we are bringing enmity between ourselves and God? Romans 8:7 "and that he might reconcile both unto Him in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh." Those who believe in this doctrine, when I say I don't sin every day, are appalled and believe I'm being prideful. No pride, just peace in knowing I am living a godly life, without sin, because of being emersed in the blood of Jesus and under the power of the Holy Ghost. These doctrine diminishes the blood of Jesus and presents a weakened Holy Ghost.
There is no contradiction, we see in Exodus 33:20-23 God told Moses he cannot see my face and no man can see me and live, so God showed Moses His backside, that is the closest any person has come to seeing God. Matt. 5:8 Jesus says those pure in heart meaning those who are amongst the saints/saved will see God. Job knew this as he says in Job 19:26, his glorified flesh/body.
We have our confirmation in Revelation 22:3-4 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
We will see God's face and the Lamb/Jesus for they will be the light and the temple of the new earth and the new Jerusalem, Revelation 21:22-23.
God bless,
RLW
The verses I shared earlier to show that repentance & belief are necessary after one hears the Gospel message are certainly not isolated in clear teaching for us, or else the apostles had it wrong in their delivery of the Gospel & instruction in what must be done to be saved. So the questions that arise in my mind from what you've shared are:
a. what is the need to preach the Gospel (according to Christ's Command), seeing that repentance & believing (Works to you) can only follow conversion/rebirth?
b. then, if the Elect (i.e. one who is chosen to be saved & accepted at the outset) has no need to hear or be challenged by the Gospel (since he is elected/accepted already), at what point in his 'Christian experience' will he sense a need to repent & believe? I simply cannot fathom such a situation.
Maybe you have answers to clarify, or even share if you choose to do so, how you were 'saved' under such a belief of 'salvation first, then repentance & belief after'. Since I've never heard of such a thing, I would be interested in a practical example to consider further. Thank you.
The marriage of two people becoming onetwo people united in purpose plan and action. The marriage of two people who will act as one unit but the married couple are two different beings.
This is an object lesson given to us by God to help us understand the trinity. Three separate beings united as one in purpose, plan, and action.
It's really very simple and not complicated at all.
When there are those in power who want to take away or diminish that which is truly good about our nation and instead support that which is not good and damaging to our nation and therefore to the world at large we should be prayerful and concerned. We should desire for our country to be one that God can use for good and for the advancement of the kingdom of God. We should be citizens who know our rights and our history so that we can know what we wish to stand for, fight for, and preserve.
Our rights as citizens are rights that are NOT given to us by the government, but come from God and reflect the freedom we have as Christians. If Believers will use these rights to do good, help one another, protect themselves and their neighbor, value the freedoms we are blessed to possess, and use our time in this world in this great country to further the cause of Christ in the world and be a defense against the ungodly ways of those who despise our Lord and Savior.
We in the U.S. have lived two centuries with these rights in place. Some of us have recent experiences with prejudice and restrictions on our basic human rights, bit most of us do not know what it is like to not be free in one's life, home, community, and country. if we knew such a lack of freedom first had, we would surely resist all the more anything that the government does to restrict the rights enumerated in our bill of rights and constitution (both of which were adopted as supreme law that cannot be overturned or altered by any other law that government may pass). The bill of rights and constitution was meant by the founders to be inalienable and not able to be reversed or impinged or overridden by government or by other citizen seeking to restrict these rights and constitutional law. These two pillars of our government ensure that we stay free and responsible as citizens.
So, we do need to pray more for God to intervene in our affairs in this nation.
I meant very Good Scripture.
" Rev. 13:8."
That's a very scripture.
It let's us know that this perfect Lamb was chosen with the foreknowledge of success.
It also let's us know that God knew Adam and every one after him would fall short. .
It gad to be the last Adam. .
A life giving Spirit!!
Not a living soul.
A quickening spirit that has no beginning or ending and took on flesh, ministered here on earth, gave his spirit to those who trust in him to become sons and daughters of God.
Then he returned to his former Glory that he had in the Godhead.
God bless.
So true, and I agree with much that you said.
Today, and foe many years now, Preachers don't preach and acknowledge the truth about sin, and everlasting hell, and they are leading their congregations straight down the wide path to hell! Matthew 25:41 James 3:1
We MUST fear God! This is the very beginning of knowledge. Proverbs 1:7
God is Vengeful and He tells us so. Hell is God's way of getting His vengeance. Isaiah 47:3
God knows us better than we could ever imagine. He knows, that if we have NO FEAR to motivate us to change our ways, we will continue in sin. God is also Love. He sacrificed his Son for us so thru Him we can recieved forgivness. He provides His Holy Spirit to break the bonds of sin. Preachers are not helping anyone by not preaching Hell and the fear of God!
If we are still repeatedly sinning..we DO NOT have God's Holy Spirit. Hebrews 10:26 God's Holy Spirit will not let us habitually sin.
Today, most so called Christian Pastors/Preachers are about the money. They don't want to focus on the sin in their congregation, if they do, they will lose their entire congregation. Sinners don't want to hear they are sinners, and they certainly don't want to think or hear about hell, they come to church to feel good about themselves and to be entertained. Churches today are all about making everyone feel good. Sad but true.
Which reminds me of this very powerful verse 2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"
The plain truth is: Sin keeps us from our God!
GBU
I fully agree with your position. What is symbolic generally applies to the Will of God. (The world unseen made to appear). Thus the slain Lamb ("the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world",-Re.13:8) is an emblem. Consequently we the same as sign, fulfillment of it is in Jesus Christ. "Behold the Lamb of the world" The expression 'Behold' emphasizes the word connection. In the eternity it is a composite image of the Throne of God and of the Lamb. (Re.22:1).The Will requires no correction whatsoever. Symbol is "I am the Life" literally embodied in the believer (died to the world in terms of its appetites and outward pomp and circumstance)
Where Jesus made manifest it must be literally followed. For instance, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me" Matt. 11:28-29 'The yoke is not literal' but abiding in Christ means there is a caveat, "You cannot serve both God and man"; You cannot deny him etc.,. By the same token, "And I will give you rest," is with regards to our souls. This can only be taken in faith. He.11:3 There are no buts and ifs between these two worlds, faith is the only lingua franca.
Watch Us at Biscoe House of Mercy YouTube
Reverend Michael Ray Dorsey
Thanks, and God's Blessings to you also.
Thank you, there is no reason to post more you have answered my questions. I have studied John and all the New Testament and as you see this doctrine, I do not see it was taught in any of the books of the New Testament that we must believe it for salvation. What I do see is the only way of salvation is belief in Jesus our Lord Messiah the Son of God sent by the Father. Galatians 4:4
In John, I see a loving Son obedient to the Father who Jesus says is greater than Him. When Jesus was anointed with the Spirit of God without limit or measure the Father who dwelt in Jesus is the one who did the works. John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
All that Jesus had was given to Him from the Father, John 17:1-3 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Thank you for discussing this with me may our love for each other overcome any disagreement.
God bless,
RLW
We can find verses, that when isolated, can seem to teach that OUR WORKS of Believing and Repentance are contributory TOWARDS our salvation. But in coming to an understanding of any doctrine in the Bible we must harmonize every verse in Scripture that relates to the question.
When we do this, we must conclude that our GOOD WORKS of any sort are the RESULT of God's gift of salvation which He bestows on each and every one of His elect, not BECAUSE we do these things but as the EVIDENCE and CHARACTER of a New Creation in Christ as we read in the Galatians and Romans passages I quoted earlier and many others.
The passage that, in my view, speaks most clearly regarding the Nature of Salvation is Ezekiel 36:24-34. Note here that every action is God's action, not man's action. And that our Repentance and Belief are the RESULT of God's actions in salvation, never the CAUSE nor the REASON.
I want to be a million miles away from any Gospel that even hints that our works contribute in any way to our Salvation.
By Grace are you saved through faith(Christ's faith not our faith). And that not of ourselves. It is the gift of God in His in comprehensible Mercy. Not of our works lest any man should boast. (forgive me for not quoting chapter and verse for these last statements, but I'm sure you are familiar).
I never want to be that man in Numbers who picked up a few sticks on the Sabbath and was executed for that seemingly incidental sin. A dramatic picture of what happens if we look to any good work that we do or have done to affect our salvation.
As well, in this last comment from you, you write, "Repentance and Belief of someone whom God has saved or plans to savedoes NOT contribute in any way whatsoever TOWARDS their salvation. These are good works that we do because God has saved us or in the process of drawing us to salvation". So even here it seems that Repentance and Belief, though non-contributing to salvation (and I agree to this part), but are evidences post-Salvation or during Salvation. Maybe your thought of Repentance is the continual attitude of the believer in his day-to-day life/warfare, and not of an initial repentance required for salvation; or even, if someone is the Elect of God, he must be saved from the beginning even as a sinner, but only has to repent & believe when he realizes his state. So, I too remain perplexed for I too don't believe that Repentance & Belief can be added to God's Gift of Salvation or else they would be considered as Works; YET I know that Repentance & Belief are necessary to grant Salvation ( Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 8:22; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9).
I ran out of room. I will be heading off to bed now. I can write more tomorrow.
I have time now to get back to you.
You ask Do you need to believe in the Trinity to be saved and be a Christian.
For me, I think that it is important for people to believe the truth about Jesus and the God's Being as shown in Scripture. One can come to Christ on very little knowledge of Jesus and even the depth of the Gospel and will be received. But I do think that once someone does come to Jesus and they learn what Scripture teaches and rejects what is taught in Scripture about the deity of Jesus and the Triune nature of God (see the last supper discourse in john) then one becomes an apostate and is in spiritual danger since they are worshipping a false image of God and Jesus and have fallen into idolatry.
Can I show you where in Scripture this doctrine is taught that one must believe it to be saved?
In reply to this question, my best advice is for you to study the Scriptures for yourself, as citing the dozens of Scripture that speak to the deity of Jesus and the Triune nature of God would involve very lengthy postings here and I don't wish to do that when you can find the information you are looking for on the web easily. Just type in the question and you can read what you wish.
And the last question is : If Jesus is God and God cannot be tempted or sin, how can he truly be tempted and how can He fulfill the law that man was under and condemn sin in the flesh?
I believe that Son of God is both fully God and fully human in the Person of Jesus. That Jesus is one Person with two natures and these natures do not intermix. As God He cannot be tempted, or sin. But His human nature could be tempted and could sin. But since every act of Jesus is done by the Son of God, who is the only Person present in Jesus, He would never sin due to His divine nature.
Jesus did live a perfect human life as a true man, thus fulfilling all the law for us. And in doing so, He condemned sin in His flesh by His perfect life and sacrifice, conquering the law.
Sorry, I posted a response but apparently posted to my response to you. You can check for it on this thread.
Here is part 2
I hope you will do the research for yourself that I have done for myself. Let me know when you have done so and we can talk more. If you do not wish to check things out for yourself, then I don't think we really have anything more to talk about on this topic.
Getting back to you.
I do believe that there is only One God , as the Scriptures I gave state. But I also believe that Scriptures reveal that God exists as three distinct Persons. Not three Gods who are independent of one another nor of differing natures or substances. No! All Persons share the same divine nature and essence that is what God is. The Persons inter-dwell each other, as Jesus speaks in Jn. 10:30, 14:10-11; 16-17; 23; 13:31-32.
Anyone who believes in Jesus believes also in the Father, John12:44 and he who receives Jesus receives the Father. And he that sees Jesus sees the Father- Jn.12:45. 14:9. Whoever knows Jesus knows the Father- Jn.14:7. He that hates Jesus hates the Father, Jn. 15:23; All that the Father has is Jesus', too, and the Spirit receive from Jesus what the Father and Son possess, Jn. 16:14-15. The Father's glory is shared with Jesus- Jn. 17:5; Jesus came out from within the Father- Jn. 17:8; 16:28.
We are to honor Jesus as we honor the Father-in the same way, as our God - Jn.5:23.
I have spent the past two days studying what the Scriptures say about the deity of Jesus and about the Persons of the Godhead and find that Scriptures does teach that Jesus is God just as the Father is God and the Spirit is God AND that there is only one God.
This is what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. Only One God in essence and nature, but three distinct Persons indwelling one another in unity.
Jema, I can tell that you think this belief is incongruous. I think it is true, yet a mystery we cannot fathom fully but can believe because the Word teaches it to be so.
Instead of me going on and on citing dozens of Scriptures that show that prove these doctrines are true, I suggest that you do as I have done. Search the Scriptures. There are many websites you can go to also on these topics to find the Scriptures that people cite to support the doctrine of the deity of Jesus and the Triunity of God.
see pt. 3
Your post made me think of the Scriptures that tell us that the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ was slain before creation Rev. 13:8. This speaks to the eternity Jesus possesses with the Father and the Spirit. Before anything was created, God was. The Father Son and Holy Spirit in one another as One God forever. How wonderful to consider.
But to think of the covenant made before creation for the Son to be the Savior of mankind through being slain on our behalf from before time began is sobering. We cannot imagine how that can be since we are bound by time and space. But God showed John in Revelation that this is so. How great God is, how merciful, how gracious to us.
But I also note your belief that 'repentance & belief' are considered as 'Works done towards salvation', therefore it can have no place before salvation. However, as I mentioned in my previous response to you that a spiritual awakening must take place first by the Holy Spirit to the one dead in sin & God-wards. And this awakening will cause the eyes of the spiritually blind to see (their sins & condemnation), to cry out in repentance, to believe on the Lord Jesus & to receive Him. This is not a works-generated effort towards salvation because the Holy Spirit is vitally involved in bringing the sinner (the Elect of God) to the foot of the Cross. It is all of God's Gracious Work - nothing of man's efforts. There is a difference when a sinner is being drawn of God as opposed to the sinner coming on his own terms & probably adding to his 'salvation'. True, the unregenerate man will never seek after the Lord, unless the Spirit is engaged in the hearing of the Gospel & conviction in the heart, but I can never understand how a sinner can be saved first & then repent & believe. GBU.
Thanks David0921. Concerning the Elect, my understanding from 1 Peter 1:2, is that those who are the Elect of God are such because of God's Foreknowledge; i.e. He knows beforehand who will be His and this of course, as the rest of that verse explains, are those who will be obedient to Christ & His Sacrifice and by the sanctifying Work of the Spirit. These facts are the marks of the Elect, the true believer - God's Foreknowledge of us already knows that to be His Elect, we would turn to the Cross & His Spirit would engage with us, and of course, we would first hear the Gospel & be convicted by its message.
You wrote, "God does not save anyone BECAUSE we Believe. But if and when God Saves an individual by His MERCY and GRACE alone, they will Believe. Our BELIEF, our REPENTANCE are good works that we do as a RESULT of our Salvation."
I'm sorry, but I can't agree to this, because how I'm reading your statement, is that salvation (i.e. the Spirit's regenerating Work in the sinner) comes first then the saved sinner repents & believes in Christ. To me, that is putting the cart before the horse. If a person receives salvation (forgiveness & regeneration) why would repentance & belief come after it? Surely, a sinner needs to repent of his sins first, calling upon the Name of the Lord to be saved. Even as Peter preached in Acts 3:19, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord"; this speaks of repentance & then conversion (regeneration), not the other way around.
The Church today, and I'm thinking more of the independent gatherings (i.e. those not governmental in structure), as probably having a good number of folk (both men & women) that might be better versed in theology & arguments in defence of the faith, than the elder/pastor himself. And this can be quite daunting to the one appointed to leadership, yet as you intimated, the Body is not in competition with each other to outdo one another, but in love & servitude, ensure the spiritual health & well-being of all. It might be that the leader might need help here - and so we need to lay all the matters, including our weaknesses & deficiencies, with the Holy Spirit Who will always ensure each individual develops into Christ-likeness & Christ's Church will remain vibrant & true to their Lord. But when wilfulness & sin are apparent & not addressed according to biblical guidance & warnings, I believe that Church is marked for rejection & self-destruction; and we have enough examples of this in Revelation chapters 2 & 3. These might exist as an external structure & a form of godliness, yet of no use in the Master's Hands & their light all but extinguished. The quality of the leaders both in biblical knowledge & Christian graces is paramount if the Church is to be led aright & experience the fullness of God's blessings.
If salvation was to the wicked whether you accept Christ or not and we all "including the wicked" will be ce gods whether we accept Christ or not, there is no need for righteous living.
And God's display of love in offering his only begotten Son on the cross was pointless and cruel.
That is not the Gospel of Christ!
Here is who's Gospel it is.
Genesis 3:4-5.
And the SERPENT said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and YE SHALL BE AS GODS, knowing good and evil.
Isaiah 12:14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
This origin is of Satan.
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15.
Also
Just because there is two opposing views on the deity of Christ.
If either side hates the other view, how is it possible join sides and to usher in this view or any other heresy to attack the Gospel and say that you are a child of God.
Blessings.
Jesus took on the sins of the whole world. (THAT MEANS MADE AVAILABLE)
When we are born again "BORN OF GOD'S SPIRIT" We are saved!
We can no longer be charged with sin. 1 John 3:9.
The Holyspirit quicken these mortal bodies so we no longer "SERVE" sin. Romans 8:9-14.
There is no way for a child of Adam to be saved apart from being born from above. He was born with an inherited sin nature.
Unlike Jesus, we have to be born "Again" JESUS NEVER HAD TO DO THAT!
He was conceived of the Holyspirit. Matthew 1:20.
The penalty of sin was Judged/condemned/sentenced in the flesh. (In other words it was sin that was on trial, Not Jesus!
I believe that's what that phrase means. (Condemned sin in the flesh)
The meaning is separate from Jesus taking our judgment on the cross.
There is one event but two trials taken place here.
1) Our sins being Judged.
2) The penalty of sin, which is Death.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:49-57.
God bless.
The bible states we certainly each get to choose. It's called freewill, that He gave each of us. So yes, God gives each person the chance to believe and accept Salvation! Jesus commanded the Gospel of the Kingdom to be preached throughout the world. When we hear The Gospel of Jesus Christ we get to choose! We can each choose to accept it - or reject it.
If we reject, nothing else is required for us to do, but to live our life in continual sin. If we believe and accept, then we must repent. We must then take all of the actions as commanded by Jesus/God.
Many people today that call themselves Christians, want their salvation without repenting! Matthew 4:17"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Luke 5:32"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
We must REPENT (stop sinning) if we want to be saved, and grafted into Christs Church (olive tree). If we expect to remain grafted into Christ's Church, each of us must REPENT and produce good fruit (good works) or we will be pruned/removed from the tree, as many of the Jews were already removed, because they did NOT believe, nor did they produce good fruit!
The bible tells us that our actions while living in this current life will determine our ultimate fate, Heaven or Hell, so its certainly OUR choice my friend.
Read and Believe!
I have a question - what is your definition of sin in this doctrine? Are you talking about real sin of disobedience to God or just faults and weaknesses we all face when we first get saved? God shows us these faults and weaknesses and as we pray and trust Him, He will help us overcome them and they will eventually go away. But sin puts enmity between us and God so how can we grow in Him if we are bringing enmity between ourselves and God? Romans 8:7 "and that he might reconcile both unto Him in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh." Those who believe in this doctrine, when I say I don't sin every day, are appalled and believe I'm being prideful. No pride, just peace in knowing I am living a godly life, without sin, because of being emersed in the blood of Jesus and under the power of the Holy Ghost. These doctrine diminishes the blood of Jesus and presents a weakened Holy Ghost.