Thank you for the good explanation to my question. There is nothing you wrote that I disagree with. I appreciate your response.
One thing, I just did not read in your original posting on this thread the statement, "Is water baptism necessary (or essential) for salvation?"
If you had simply stated that in a post to begin a thread, I think the responses would differ than what has been stated in responses. Maybe that is a question to be posted simply as it is, without any other dialogue, should you really want to discuss that question.
Have a good evening, Steven. Last night was wild in the neighborhood here with fireworks going off everywhere until midnight. I could not get to sleep until after they ceased. But once a year is fine with me.
Alex,since you repeated your misinterpretation of Peter's vision in Acts 20, I will refer anyone reading your post to my reply to you as I believe that you are absolutely wrong in your interpretation of this event and in God's interactions with Peter. The Lord was never angry or rebuking Peter. Your interpretation adds to Scripture. Paul was not speaking against baptism and he did not say that baptism makes the blood of Christ to no avail. He was speaking of fulfilling his own personal call to preach the Gospel and that if he did not preach the Gospel as directed to him by the Holy Spirit then so many would not get an opportunity to hear the Gospel preached and therefore, the cross of Christ, though an actual event, would have no effect on those who could not her the Gospel. Paul's comment was not about disavowing baptism, but about being singularly focused on this calling. He left others he had placed in the churches to oversee the believers to do thee baptizing. You are very wrong in your viewpoint.
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking "moderation view" if you're asking what the rules of posting are= if you tap discussion, bottom of page small red print "comment guidelines" has the full list, of guidelines & with excellent scripture references. It's nice to remind ourselves of those.
Moderation, this site has the option to allow anyone to report anything that violates that list of guidelines.
The comments cannot be viewed if removed, as far as I've experienced.
If you had a comment removed, it possibly was flagged as in violation of the "guidelines", after you read them, if you have a question or comment, maybe if you rephrase the words._._ many of us have had discussions about comments removed.
I felt led to address the phrase you used when addressing GiGi. It was a phrase use by Jesus when addressing the Sadducees, who appearing to twist the story from Tobit, because it clearly says "before they had lien with her". Tobit 3:8, Jesus went on to rebuke & say Mark 12:24,27 Also in Matthew 22:29,
We've also dealt with this in the past and it wasn't rather it was taught or not it was rather water baptism saves or not.
I want to go over this because saying a dispensational teaching is for lack of better terms because there is a term what is called hyper dispensationalist. Some hold the view that water baptism is not for this age, I don't hold that view,
because it belongs to the new covenant, perhaps I should have said a transitional period.
I will come to that later.
There are dispensation concerning Israel in the Bible and these dispensation is not labeled, (This is a dispensation ).
There are some may be able to articulate this much better than I can.
However let's not loose sight of what I'm drawn into here.
The context of what we are talking about is whether water baptism is a essential for salvation.
This may take several parts.
Let's start with an often used verse when debating baptism.
Acts 2"37-38. Now let's turn back to Acts 1:4-8 to view the audience being spoken to and get the context.
"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
At the very beginning the early church was all Jewish.
GBU SUZE....Yes all the unclean animals in that sheet was Humanity that was made clean by the blood of the lamb of God not water baptism lest our Lord shed his blood in vain.
.....Thats y God told PETER in that vision what I ME GOD ALMIGHTY HAS MADE CLEAN BY THE BLOOD OF MY SON DO NOT CALL COMMON OR UNLCEAN....By commanding water baptism for the remission of sins ..God was very upset with Peter to even mention water baptism after Jesus had shed his blood for Humanity...Peter didn't realize the enormity the vastness of the Cross that New COVENANT in Jesus blood for the sins of the world...If water cd have made us clean then our lord shed his blood in vain and the Cross was just foolishness.
.....God was trying to tell Peter what i have made clean ( by my blood ) ..do not call common or unclean..This Crucifixion of Christ was the greatest event to ever hit this planet...Mankind will be talking about this great New Covenant in Christ blood for millions of yrs to come....In Adam we all died but in Christ blood we will all live....Even in the O.T. which was a shadow of things to come without the shedding of blood there was no remisison of sins...
....I know that Peter was a great man of God but somethings are best left untended...Remember Uzzah wanted to help God when the ozen stumbled...But Uzzah should have kept his hands off of the ark...Peter should have not said anything about water baptism as God was making a New Covenant in CHRIST BLOOD.
...Peter should have been in the streets preaching behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world....thank you Jesus....Not commanding water baptism at a time like this when Jesus was shedding his blood for Humanity....love ya suze GBU
Gi Gi ...1 Cor.. 1:17 ....Paul said for Christ sent me not to Baptise ( with water ) but to preach the gospel Lest the Cross the (BLOOD ) should be made of none effect....Water baptism is in essence saying that this new blood Covenant was not Needed..ALL we need is water baptism for the remission of sins...verse 18...For the preaching of the Cross ( the blood ) This new covenant is to them that perish FOOLISHNESS....They think that this new blood covenant is not needed...All they think they need is water baptism...All that bloody Cross ( Calvary ) is just Foolishness....But unto us who are saved ( THE BLOOD ) it is the POWER OF GOD. Not water baptism.
.....After that Peter understood the vision he says then remembered i the words of our LORD, John baptised you with water but i will baptise you with the H.G. and fire... Acts 11 : 16...Peter remembered what Jesus had said about baptism of the H.G...3 Times it is recorded in the New Testament....John baptised you with water but i will baptise you with the H.G. and fire....Which is that baptism of PROMISE....When Jesus said behold i send the Promise of my father upon you it was baptism of the H.G. Not water baptism.
....The Kingdom cannot come with water baptism...The Kingdom can only come via the New Covenant....The blood of the lamb...Jesus said that this is my blood of the New Covenant drink ye all of it...The Kingdom can only come via the woman and her Children....That New Birth as Jesus said unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in....But the woman cannot give birth till the book is opened which is that New COVENANT His Blood
.....Thats when they sang a new SONG simply b/c that book is the New Covenant that he wrote with is own blood...There is not even a mention of water baptism in the book of Revelation.. Only baptism that is mentioned is the blood of the lamb.
......Once ya understand the ENORMITY of the CROSS his BLOOD you will neva mention water baptism again..
John said I baptize with water he who is coming after me shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
Now, Is Jesus still baptizing with the Holy Ghost? Yes. He does that through the preaching of the gospel and you receiving the message through open eyes and a blood tipped ear. This call goes out to jew and Gentiles, Before the crucifixion Christ was gathering the lost sheep of Israel, The king was in their midst and the kingdom was at hand, John the baptist came to pronounce that. Did Jesus ask the Disciples to baptize the lost sheep of Israel or anyone else BEFORE they crucified him, No. His Death had to bring on a new covenant. The circumcision of the heart. No more a commandment, IT'S NOW A CONDITION. Hebrews 8:6-11. He now put his law in man's heart. "Circumcision of the heart"
and only the baptism of the Holyspirit can do that. In Acts 2:38 the jews was asked to repent, this was very new to them.
Again, this was all Israel.
see Acts 2:36.
Now, everyone taught didn't believe, were they baptized? No, You had to believe. see Acts 8:35-37.
"Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; WHAT DOTH HINDER ME TO BE BAPTIZED?
And Philip said, IF THOU BELIEVEST WITH ALL THINE HEART, THOU MAYEST. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Note:
1 Corinthians 12:13.
Ephesians 4:4-5.
We're put into the body by that 1 baptism and that's the baptism John the baptist referred Israel to. The Holy Ghost.
Matthew 28:18-19. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Do you notice no ask of repentance?
This is beyond Jerusalem. This power is of Jesus, His baptism.
Well praise God...it's so great to see this..u would be suprise of the CHURCH PEOPLE that don't know what the will be..im so tired of hearing about the Rapture..when people that you think should know better they don't..oh my it's going to be sad so sad when Jesus comes and they won't be ready.. i went to Isreal 4 years ago and ran into a young man from Africa that showed me scripture concerning that...so every one that i know im telling to research it and read it for yourself...and they are astonished..im talking about born again belivers....oh my so sad..but so very happy to see that you are on it God richly bless You is my prayer....SEE YOU IN HEAVEN!!!
Israel was the only Nation given a God given religion, they were asked to repent. Here you have a great transition, the veil was rent earlier and now we see a transition from law to grace, No more circumcision of the flesh but of the heart. that's why John the baptist said in Matthew 3:8-10 "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Paul says it in Romans 1:16. "Chronology" it is to the Jew first. This conversation of repentance can only be given to a God given Nation and religion. (JUDAISM.) No longer Identified by circumcision of the flesh but Identified with Christ and THEN carry the message to the ends of the earth.
They were to repent and be baptized believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
When we are saved we are baptized by water to give a witness that we are baptized by the Holyspirit and Identified with Christ. So all throughout Acts these steps were highlighted.
There was an beginning of a new covenant.
John the baptist was preparing the way for the Lord for Israel. He came in screaming prepare the way for the Lord
Announcing a kingdom "Before " the King was rejected, This was the baptism of John.
When Jesus sent the Desciples out to teach all baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holyspirit, That speaks of the working power of his Death and Resurrection to those who believe.
Amen... my favorite verse, i think this is the one that really hit home with me... Ro 4:17 (KJV) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Amen, its whats being taught today in 80 percent of Churchs, C.I scofieldism, dispensationalist right division, Israel futurism doctrines, which deny Christ while confessing Christ, people don't realize they deny Christ first coming and the finish work of Christ on the cross, including the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. which is the obsession with a physical earthly future for national Israel, not only do they deny Christ but they replace him with Antichrist.. bad stuff
Dear friends in Christ, i understand u werry well Alex, i belive what u Says Also. Ppl gets off the shaft when i say this. Evan throw me out of Community. Here you can clearly see that judgment starts with God's people. God bless us all.
Halleljua Jesus is today and yesterday the same. And, of course, it says that the spirit shall be shed in the last days. For everyone to come home with Jesus. I guess He doesn't want to bring home someone who's not ready. Also to confirm that He Is the King.
He Jesus once died for all ppl, not only me typ!
In fact, I've never thought about this with the baptism of water. And your words are not wrong here. What may be is that, as with me, not everyone sees this yet. (Smily).
We will understand everything in the end. And i will study this baptism thoughts and look to it with open mind. Ty but am sure that water and spirit baptism is to different things and water can not give a salvation at all. But my words i like to say is: It's a good conscience with God Him self a promice too Him in one way. What says i Free will always stand with God, Jesus Christ and our Holy Spirit of God, who understand everything about me, u and all ppl.
Long to see you all, if not now in this world so in the coming. Love u all in Christ, God bless
We've also dealt with this in the past and it wasn't rather it was taught or not it was rather water baptism saves or not.
I want to go over this because saying a dispensational teaching is for lack of better terms because there is a term what is called hyper dispensationalist. Some hold the view that water baptism is not for this age, I don't hold that view,
because it belongs to the new covenant, perhaps I should have said a transitional period.
I will come to that later.
There are dispensation concerning Israel in the Bible and these dispensation is not labeled, (This is a dispensation ).
There are some may be able to articulate this much better than I can.
However let's not loose sight of what I'm drawn into here.
The context of what we are talking about is whether water baptism is a essential for salvation.
This may take several parts.
Let's start with an often used verse when debating baptism.
Acts 2"37-38. Now let's turn back to Acts 1:4-8 to view the audience being spoken to and get the context.
"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
At the very beginning the early church was all Jewish.
We should not keep company alone with some one who isn't our spouse (opposite sex) Hello Gigi , I have a couple of friends who r muslims , once they gave up trying to convert me we have learned to accept each other as friends . I don't know if u r aware but not being alone with opposite sex that isn't a close relation is actually part of muslim , or sharia as it's called , law . That's not for me . As far as we can tell ,Jesus was alone with the Samaritan woman at the well .
1 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God IN HIM ARE YEA ....
CAN YOU PLEASE GOD?
Matthew 19:21 ......go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor ......
Acts 2:41 ....and were baptised ....this whole chapter is about the outpouring of the Holy ghost ....so it it batpism of physical water of living water?
Acts 2:45 ....and sold their possessions and goods and parted them to all men .....
If it's water baptism, and you are trying to please God why not go and sell all you possessions; also, and part them to men.
Coming to TRUTH is what pleases God.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do his pleasure.
The life in you is Christ, the faith in you is Christ's faith, the works are Christ's works, the baptism in you is the baptism of Christ (the Holy Ghost):
YOU ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST.
John 14:6 .....I AM .... LIFE ......
John 11:25 .....I AM ....... the RESURRECTION .....
Revelation 20:6 Blesses and HOLY is he that hath part in the first RESURRECTION ....
TRUTH! ....will set you free!
You died on the cross; Christ was resurrected and gave YOU HIS LIFE.
Colossians 3:3 For you are dead, and your life is HID IN CHRIST with GOD.
ONE ....ONE .....ONE .....ONE .....ONE
1 Corinthians 15:28 .....that God may be all (ONE) in all (ONE).
The people were water baptized in the book of Acts & not in titles. There's a lot of scriptures in the New Testament on water baptism. Even Cornelius was water baptized & he was not a jew, he already had the infilliing of the Holy Ghost. The thief on the cross was under the old covenant. Bible says the parting of the red sea was a type of water baptism. Same w Noahs Ark. It's all in the bible.
Peter spoke the truth.
Matthew 16: Jesus said to Peter, "I will give unto thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven & whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:& whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven".
Therefore Peter was NOT in error. I do not see where the Lord was angry w Peter about baptizm.
The epistles from Romans -Jude were written to the people that came from the book of Acts. The epistles are NOT written the the World. Obey the new testament salvation message then go forward into the epistles & continue to learn.
It seems that many people get confused when interpreting Paul's writings. Paul preached the same gospel as Jesus, and Paul does NOT cancel anything that Jesus already stated in His Gospel, nor in His commands - including water baptism. I have observed that Paul has a way with his words that sometimes creates confusion, regarding interpretation, whereas there is usually NO confusion with the words that Jesus speaks!
Paul can NOT cancel any words that Jesus previously stated - including the command for baptism.
Yes, Peter was highly regarded by Jesus, and was instructed along with all of the apostles to go out in the world to preach "The Gospel" and "baptize believers" for the forgiveness of sins, and to receive the Holy Spirit.
Those that feel they can ignore the words that Jesus spoke, including His commands to us, should really read and contemplate on this scripture by Jesus:
Matthew 24:35
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
Well Alex, Once again I greatly disagree with your interpretation of Scripture and the events of Peter on the rooftop with the vision of unclean foods and with Paul's view of water baptism. Peter went on to go to the home of Cornelius and he did water baptize Cornelieus and the whole household as the Spirit had led him to do. He also laid hands upon the new believers to receive the Holy Spirit. The vision was to show Peter that the Gospel of salvation is for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. Jews considered Gentiles to be unclean, like the foods in the sheet that came down in the vision. God was telling Peter to not despise or refuse to go to the Gentiles with the Gospel, but to welcome them into the fellowship of believers instead. God was calling the Gentiles clean and on the same level as the Jews. Both are in need of salvation and the Gospel should be delivered to all people without being a "respecter of persons", considering some people (Jews) more deserving of salvation than others (Gentiles).
Paul was obedient to the Holy Spirit and was baptized in water by Ananias. He never wrote anywhere that water baptism made the blood of Christ of no avail. You are adding to Scripture when you say Paul said this or believed it. And you are misinterpreting Acts 10 concerning Peter's vision. It was not a rebuke, but a calling to go to the Gentiles, therefore a change of thinking was needed for peter to be know to it was permissible to associate with Gentiles.
Please do not worry about me and my spiritual condition. I am "good to go".
When the Bible speaks about all of our works are like "filthy rags" before God the Word is telling us that even at our best, we are far from being righteous, pure, and holy like God. But, thankfully, be Jesus imputed to us so that we are no longer under condemnation for our sins. This means, although we still sin, our sins are forgiven and removed from us. However, the sinful nature still resides in each of us as long as we live in this earthly life. This sinful nature continually is at work to lead us to sin. Although, as believers, we endeavor to avoid consciously and deliberately sinning, we often become aware that we sinned after the fact, such as: speaking a sharp word back to our spouse, being impatient with our children, being boastful, gossiping, and so many other ways we sin unconsciously. Even so, these unconscious sin reveals to us the depth of our sinful nature, which we are to put to death daily and choosing to live by the Spirit instead.
Have a good day, Doug, and do not be so worried about me. I do not judge you, so pleases do not judge me, as we do not have personal knowledge of each other to do so. It is fine if you disagree with what I have said or my viewpoint. But I think it is inappropriate to pass a judgment on the spiritual condition of another believer on this forum when we do not really know each other well.
Thanks Alex , that's so interesting to me , the bit about the sheet with all the unclean animals in it , I hadn't ever applied that to humans , you have given me food for thought , which is exactly what this site should be for smiley face .
I believe you are responding to my response to Texsis.
Here's what's noted.
Qs...I've heard 2 different things about baptism. What is your opinion? I believe that once Christ resurrected for us and we are spiritually baptized once we except Him in all that apply, there is no need to get water baptism. can yet not necessary. Yet I keep getting flack for it.
The root of this debate is requirement and always have been. On this thread the evidence is in the parties participating, Adam and Bro Dan has always made it clear that it's a requirement. You have been part of that debate in the recent past also. I know you say you don't believe it does but you argue along side them so you should know.
Secondly, salvation is death and a new birth "AND" sanctification. Not just Positionally where we're hidden in Christ. but practically where he lives in us. We've recieved the earnest of the spirit. This takes us to Romans 6:4. "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Baptism means Identified.
We are Identified with the death meaning the penalty and the power of the old nature is to be recognized as crucified. And we are Identified with Christ resurrection in where we walk in newness of life. That's why the chapter opens up like this- Romans 6:1-4.
So I don't hold the view water baptism symbolizes cleansing of the sins because that notion doesn't complete the Identification. "Baptized into his resurrection.
So I believe When the scripture says believe and be baptized it don't necessarily mean water baptism. It means what takes place once you believe. The baptism John spoke of which is not of man but the Holyspirit. Matthew 3:11.
Gi Gi you do greatly err....Jesus said John baptised you with water but i will baptise you with the H.G. and fire...What Jesus did at Calvary was a New Covenant in his blood....There was no water involved....It was Peter that was commanding water baptism after the Cross...That New COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD which was also the Great Promise baptism....Water was neva the great Promise baptism...Thats y the lord was so upset with Peter commanding water baptism...When God Almighty had just offfered up his only son for the sins of the world...behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...the blood of that New covenant...Here comes Peter commanding water baptism as if the Blood of that New covenant was insufficient. And unholy
......All the unclean animals in that sheet was the Church, humanity that was made clean by the Blood of the lamb of God not water baptism that Peter was commanding....Thats y God was so upset with Peter rebuking Peter 3 times with that sheet with all the unclean animals...Which is the world that was made clean by the blood of the lamb...Not by water baptism which was fine b/f the Cross...But after the CROSS IT WAS A NEW COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD....This is the New COVENANT in my blood drink ye all of it...For the sins of the world...John gave us water baptism but John said that Jesus had sandles that he was not worthy to unloose...meaning the new covenant in his blood that no man cd look on....God tells Peter 3 times what I have made clean do not call common or unclean by...( commanding water baptism to make these ppl clean )..A Slap in the face of God and the lamb of God is tells folks that need water baptism after he shed his blood for humanity .
......Thats y Paul was so reluctant to preach water baptism...In one place PAUL SAID I THANK GOD THAT I BAPTISED NONE OF YOU....Paul knew that water baptism wd make the blood of this New COVENANT OF NONE EFFECT...Even in the O.T. without the shedding of blood there was not remisison of sins..
Thanks for replying. I think we both agree on everyone being water baptized is not saved and we both agree everyone that makes an alter call is not saved, I reaffirm that hoping I script it in that way.
However we will have to agree to disagree on this statement of yours.
"And there is Scriptural precedence for the laying on of hands on newly water baptized converts to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I support all three of these being delivered to those God brings to us to witness to and to administer these things that were commanded and practiced by the apostles."
I don't believe today there has to be a laying on the hands to receive the Holyspirit. But not interested in a debate.
According to Christ; "His sheep hear His voice." ( John 10:27). 2 Tim. 2:24-26 indicate that repentance indeed is a gift from God.
The basic premise is that we are all "children of wrath" by nature under condemnation apart from Christ. ( Eph. 2:3). If we cannot understand that man's heart is estranged from God; and that at best we try to avoid the consequences of sin rather than have any true remorse for offending a Holy; righteous and just God then we simply are living out a works based theology. Titus 1:15 shows further how our best actions are contaminated and defiled.
Human love only shows true affection for those who love us ( Matthew 5:46-48). To love those who "despitefully use us" ( Matthew 5:44) takes a change of heart; a Divine intervention and infusion of the Holy Spirit again which is given by God ( Ezekiel 36:26).
From OUR perspective we see ourselves drawn to the one from all eternity who created all things. ( Ecclesiastes 3:11). This verse shows again how even THIS is instigated in man's conscience by God. We need to realize that there is a process involved; as the parable of the seed and the sowers indicates. The seed from God (again planted on His initiative) is introduced; and ultimately must progress until "fruit is produced" (see also Matthew 3:8). TRUE repentance will overcome temptations that the Lord uses to prune us; as He "chastises all those He loves" ( Heb. 12:6; etc). God therefore initiates salvation; and the whole sanctification process ultimately leading to glorification ( Romans 8:17).
When we are saved; we have new desires to serve God and rejoice in the thought of service to Him now and in eternity. We begin a process of mortification of the deeds of the flesh ( Romans 8:13). From our perspective; we need to accept the truth about ourselves and our utter hopelessness apart from Christ in our own strength. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom ) Proverbs 9; Psalm 111; etc). Jeremiah 32:40 shows God gives that
Dear GiGi, I am still concerned when you use a phrase like "depth of my sinfulness" that there are things you are not dealing with in your life that makes you feel guilty. I just don't see those phrases by the writers of the Bible when you take the context. 2 Tim. 3:16,17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Thank you for the good explanation to my question. There is nothing you wrote that I disagree with. I appreciate your response.
One thing, I just did not read in your original posting on this thread the statement, "Is water baptism necessary (or essential) for salvation?"
If you had simply stated that in a post to begin a thread, I think the responses would differ than what has been stated in responses. Maybe that is a question to be posted simply as it is, without any other dialogue, should you really want to discuss that question.
Have a good evening, Steven. Last night was wild in the neighborhood here with fireworks going off everywhere until midnight. I could not get to sleep until after they ceased. But once a year is fine with me.
Hopefully this is helpful
Moderation, this site has the option to allow anyone to report anything that violates that list of guidelines.
The comments cannot be viewed if removed, as far as I've experienced.
If you had a comment removed, it possibly was flagged as in violation of the "guidelines", after you read them, if you have a question or comment, maybe if you rephrase the words._._ many of us have had discussions about comments removed.
Hopefully that is helpful
John 13:34-35, Romans 12:10, 1Timothy 5:1-2,
I felt led to address the phrase you used when addressing GiGi. It was a phrase use by Jesus when addressing the Sadducees, who appearing to twist the story from Tobit, because it clearly says "before they had lien with her". Tobit 3:8, Jesus went on to rebuke & say Mark 12:24,27 Also in Matthew 22:29,
James 1:16-27, Galatians 5:15-26,
Let's us try to be kinder, not bitey
Sorry for such a late response.
Part 1.
We've also dealt with this in the past and it wasn't rather it was taught or not it was rather water baptism saves or not.
I want to go over this because saying a dispensational teaching is for lack of better terms because there is a term what is called hyper dispensationalist. Some hold the view that water baptism is not for this age, I don't hold that view,
because it belongs to the new covenant, perhaps I should have said a transitional period.
I will come to that later.
There are dispensation concerning Israel in the Bible and these dispensation is not labeled, (This is a dispensation ).
There are some may be able to articulate this much better than I can.
However let's not loose sight of what I'm drawn into here.
The context of what we are talking about is whether water baptism is a essential for salvation.
This may take several parts.
Let's start with an often used verse when debating baptism.
Acts 2"37-38. Now let's turn back to Acts 1:4-8 to view the audience being spoken to and get the context.
"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
At the very beginning the early church was all Jewish.
See Part 2.
.....Thats y God told PETER in that vision what I ME GOD ALMIGHTY HAS MADE CLEAN BY THE BLOOD OF MY SON DO NOT CALL COMMON OR UNLCEAN....By commanding water baptism for the remission of sins ..God was very upset with Peter to even mention water baptism after Jesus had shed his blood for Humanity...Peter didn't realize the enormity the vastness of the Cross that New COVENANT in Jesus blood for the sins of the world...If water cd have made us clean then our lord shed his blood in vain and the Cross was just foolishness.
.....God was trying to tell Peter what i have made clean ( by my blood ) ..do not call common or unclean..This Crucifixion of Christ was the greatest event to ever hit this planet...Mankind will be talking about this great New Covenant in Christ blood for millions of yrs to come....In Adam we all died but in Christ blood we will all live....Even in the O.T. which was a shadow of things to come without the shedding of blood there was no remisison of sins...
....I know that Peter was a great man of God but somethings are best left untended...Remember Uzzah wanted to help God when the ozen stumbled...But Uzzah should have kept his hands off of the ark...Peter should have not said anything about water baptism as God was making a New Covenant in CHRIST BLOOD.
...Peter should have been in the streets preaching behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world....thank you Jesus....Not commanding water baptism at a time like this when Jesus was shedding his blood for Humanity....love ya suze GBU
Hopefully this is helpful
.....After that Peter understood the vision he says then remembered i the words of our LORD, John baptised you with water but i will baptise you with the H.G. and fire... Acts 11 : 16...Peter remembered what Jesus had said about baptism of the H.G...3 Times it is recorded in the New Testament....John baptised you with water but i will baptise you with the H.G. and fire....Which is that baptism of PROMISE....When Jesus said behold i send the Promise of my father upon you it was baptism of the H.G. Not water baptism.
....The Kingdom cannot come with water baptism...The Kingdom can only come via the New Covenant....The blood of the lamb...Jesus said that this is my blood of the New Covenant drink ye all of it...The Kingdom can only come via the woman and her Children....That New Birth as Jesus said unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in....But the woman cannot give birth till the book is opened which is that New COVENANT His Blood
.....Thats when they sang a new SONG simply b/c that book is the New Covenant that he wrote with is own blood...There is not even a mention of water baptism in the book of Revelation.. Only baptism that is mentioned is the blood of the lamb.
......Once ya understand the ENORMITY of the CROSS his BLOOD you will neva mention water baptism again..
Part 3.
John said I baptize with water he who is coming after me shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
Now, Is Jesus still baptizing with the Holy Ghost? Yes. He does that through the preaching of the gospel and you receiving the message through open eyes and a blood tipped ear. This call goes out to jew and Gentiles, Before the crucifixion Christ was gathering the lost sheep of Israel, The king was in their midst and the kingdom was at hand, John the baptist came to pronounce that. Did Jesus ask the Disciples to baptize the lost sheep of Israel or anyone else BEFORE they crucified him, No. His Death had to bring on a new covenant. The circumcision of the heart. No more a commandment, IT'S NOW A CONDITION. Hebrews 8:6-11. He now put his law in man's heart. "Circumcision of the heart"
and only the baptism of the Holyspirit can do that. In Acts 2:38 the jews was asked to repent, this was very new to them.
Again, this was all Israel.
see Acts 2:36.
Now, everyone taught didn't believe, were they baptized? No, You had to believe. see Acts 8:35-37.
"Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; WHAT DOTH HINDER ME TO BE BAPTIZED?
And Philip said, IF THOU BELIEVEST WITH ALL THINE HEART, THOU MAYEST. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Note:
1 Corinthians 12:13.
Ephesians 4:4-5.
We're put into the body by that 1 baptism and that's the baptism John the baptist referred Israel to. The Holy Ghost.
Matthew 28:18-19. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Do you notice no ask of repentance?
This is beyond Jerusalem. This power is of Jesus, His baptism.
God bless.
Part 2.The transition.
Israel was the only Nation given a God given religion, they were asked to repent. Here you have a great transition, the veil was rent earlier and now we see a transition from law to grace, No more circumcision of the flesh but of the heart. that's why John the baptist said in Matthew 3:8-10 "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Paul says it in Romans 1:16. "Chronology" it is to the Jew first. This conversation of repentance can only be given to a God given Nation and religion. (JUDAISM.) No longer Identified by circumcision of the flesh but Identified with Christ and THEN carry the message to the ends of the earth.
They were to repent and be baptized believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
When we are saved we are baptized by water to give a witness that we are baptized by the Holyspirit and Identified with Christ. So all throughout Acts these steps were highlighted.
There was an beginning of a new covenant.
John the baptist was preparing the way for the Lord for Israel. He came in screaming prepare the way for the Lord
Announcing a kingdom "Before " the King was rejected, This was the baptism of John.
When Jesus sent the Desciples out to teach all baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holyspirit, That speaks of the working power of his Death and Resurrection to those who believe.
See Part 3.
Halleljua Jesus is today and yesterday the same. And, of course, it says that the spirit shall be shed in the last days. For everyone to come home with Jesus. I guess He doesn't want to bring home someone who's not ready. Also to confirm that He Is the King.
He Jesus once died for all ppl, not only me typ!
In fact, I've never thought about this with the baptism of water. And your words are not wrong here. What may be is that, as with me, not everyone sees this yet. (Smily).
We will understand everything in the end. And i will study this baptism thoughts and look to it with open mind. Ty but am sure that water and spirit baptism is to different things and water can not give a salvation at all. But my words i like to say is: It's a good conscience with God Him self a promice too Him in one way. What says i Free will always stand with God, Jesus Christ and our Holy Spirit of God, who understand everything about me, u and all ppl.
Long to see you all, if not now in this world so in the coming. Love u all in Christ, God bless
Acts 9
Sorry for such a late response.
Part 1.
We've also dealt with this in the past and it wasn't rather it was taught or not it was rather water baptism saves or not.
I want to go over this because saying a dispensational teaching is for lack of better terms because there is a term what is called hyper dispensationalist. Some hold the view that water baptism is not for this age, I don't hold that view,
because it belongs to the new covenant, perhaps I should have said a transitional period.
I will come to that later.
There are dispensation concerning Israel in the Bible and these dispensation is not labeled, (This is a dispensation ).
There are some may be able to articulate this much better than I can.
However let's not loose sight of what I'm drawn into here.
The context of what we are talking about is whether water baptism is a essential for salvation.
This may take several parts.
Let's start with an often used verse when debating baptism.
Acts 2"37-38. Now let's turn back to Acts 1:4-8 to view the audience being spoken to and get the context.
"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
At the very beginning the early church was all Jewish.
See Part 2.
Ephesians 4:4 ONE Body, ONE Spirit ......
Ephesians 4:5 ONE Lord, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism,
Ephesians 4:6 ONE God and Father of ALL .....
What is this ONE?
Is it physical water, or LIVING WATER?
1 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God IN HIM ARE YEA ....
CAN YOU PLEASE GOD?
Matthew 19:21 ......go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor ......
Acts 2:41 ....and were baptised ....this whole chapter is about the outpouring of the Holy ghost ....so it it batpism of physical water of living water?
Acts 2:45 ....and sold their possessions and goods and parted them to all men .....
If it's water baptism, and you are trying to please God why not go and sell all you possessions; also, and part them to men.
Coming to TRUTH is what pleases God.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do his pleasure.
The life in you is Christ, the faith in you is Christ's faith, the works are Christ's works, the baptism in you is the baptism of Christ (the Holy Ghost):
YOU ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST.
John 14:6 .....I AM .... LIFE ......
John 11:25 .....I AM ....... the RESURRECTION .....
Revelation 20:6 Blesses and HOLY is he that hath part in the first RESURRECTION ....
TRUTH! ....will set you free!
You died on the cross; Christ was resurrected and gave YOU HIS LIFE.
Colossians 3:3 For you are dead, and your life is HID IN CHRIST with GOD.
ONE ....ONE .....ONE .....ONE .....ONE
1 Corinthians 15:28 .....that God may be all (ONE) in all (ONE).
God Bless ALL.
Peter spoke the truth.
Matthew 16: Jesus said to Peter, "I will give unto thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven & whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:& whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven".
Therefore Peter was NOT in error. I do not see where the Lord was angry w Peter about baptizm.
The epistles from Romans -Jude were written to the people that came from the book of Acts. The epistles are NOT written the the World. Obey the new testament salvation message then go forward into the epistles & continue to learn.
(Paul did water baptize some)
Very well stated, and I totally agree with you.
It seems that many people get confused when interpreting Paul's writings. Paul preached the same gospel as Jesus, and Paul does NOT cancel anything that Jesus already stated in His Gospel, nor in His commands - including water baptism. I have observed that Paul has a way with his words that sometimes creates confusion, regarding interpretation, whereas there is usually NO confusion with the words that Jesus speaks!
Paul can NOT cancel any words that Jesus previously stated - including the command for baptism.
Yes, Peter was highly regarded by Jesus, and was instructed along with all of the apostles to go out in the world to preach "The Gospel" and "baptize believers" for the forgiveness of sins, and to receive the Holy Spirit.
Those that feel they can ignore the words that Jesus spoke, including His commands to us, should really read and contemplate on this scripture by Jesus:
Matthew 24:35
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
GBU
Paul was obedient to the Holy Spirit and was baptized in water by Ananias. He never wrote anywhere that water baptism made the blood of Christ of no avail. You are adding to Scripture when you say Paul said this or believed it. And you are misinterpreting Acts 10 concerning Peter's vision. It was not a rebuke, but a calling to go to the Gentiles, therefore a change of thinking was needed for peter to be know to it was permissible to associate with Gentiles.
Please do not worry about me and my spiritual condition. I am "good to go".
When the Bible speaks about all of our works are like "filthy rags" before God the Word is telling us that even at our best, we are far from being righteous, pure, and holy like God. But, thankfully, be Jesus imputed to us so that we are no longer under condemnation for our sins. This means, although we still sin, our sins are forgiven and removed from us. However, the sinful nature still resides in each of us as long as we live in this earthly life. This sinful nature continually is at work to lead us to sin. Although, as believers, we endeavor to avoid consciously and deliberately sinning, we often become aware that we sinned after the fact, such as: speaking a sharp word back to our spouse, being impatient with our children, being boastful, gossiping, and so many other ways we sin unconsciously. Even so, these unconscious sin reveals to us the depth of our sinful nature, which we are to put to death daily and choosing to live by the Spirit instead.
Have a good day, Doug, and do not be so worried about me. I do not judge you, so pleases do not judge me, as we do not have personal knowledge of each other to do so. It is fine if you disagree with what I have said or my viewpoint. But I think it is inappropriate to pass a judgment on the spiritual condition of another believer on this forum when we do not really know each other well.
I believe you are responding to my response to Texsis.
Here's what's noted.
Qs...I've heard 2 different things about baptism. What is your opinion? I believe that once Christ resurrected for us and we are spiritually baptized once we except Him in all that apply, there is no need to get water baptism. can yet not necessary. Yet I keep getting flack for it.
The root of this debate is requirement and always have been. On this thread the evidence is in the parties participating, Adam and Bro Dan has always made it clear that it's a requirement. You have been part of that debate in the recent past also. I know you say you don't believe it does but you argue along side them so you should know.
Secondly, salvation is death and a new birth "AND" sanctification. Not just Positionally where we're hidden in Christ. but practically where he lives in us. We've recieved the earnest of the spirit. This takes us to Romans 6:4. "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Baptism means Identified.
We are Identified with the death meaning the penalty and the power of the old nature is to be recognized as crucified. And we are Identified with Christ resurrection in where we walk in newness of life. That's why the chapter opens up like this- Romans 6:1-4.
So I don't hold the view water baptism symbolizes cleansing of the sins because that notion doesn't complete the Identification. "Baptized into his resurrection.
So I believe When the scripture says believe and be baptized it don't necessarily mean water baptism. It means what takes place once you believe. The baptism John spoke of which is not of man but the Holyspirit. Matthew 3:11.
God bless.
......All the unclean animals in that sheet was the Church, humanity that was made clean by the Blood of the lamb of God not water baptism that Peter was commanding....Thats y God was so upset with Peter rebuking Peter 3 times with that sheet with all the unclean animals...Which is the world that was made clean by the blood of the lamb...Not by water baptism which was fine b/f the Cross...But after the CROSS IT WAS A NEW COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD....This is the New COVENANT in my blood drink ye all of it...For the sins of the world...John gave us water baptism but John said that Jesus had sandles that he was not worthy to unloose...meaning the new covenant in his blood that no man cd look on....God tells Peter 3 times what I have made clean do not call common or unclean by...( commanding water baptism to make these ppl clean )..A Slap in the face of God and the lamb of God is tells folks that need water baptism after he shed his blood for humanity .
......Thats y Paul was so reluctant to preach water baptism...In one place PAUL SAID I THANK GOD THAT I BAPTISED NONE OF YOU....Paul knew that water baptism wd make the blood of this New COVENANT OF NONE EFFECT...Even in the O.T. without the shedding of blood there was not remisison of sins..
Thanks for replying. I think we both agree on everyone being water baptized is not saved and we both agree everyone that makes an alter call is not saved, I reaffirm that hoping I script it in that way.
However we will have to agree to disagree on this statement of yours.
"And there is Scriptural precedence for the laying on of hands on newly water baptized converts to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I support all three of these being delivered to those God brings to us to witness to and to administer these things that were commanded and practiced by the apostles."
I don't believe today there has to be a laying on the hands to receive the Holyspirit. But not interested in a debate.
Thanks and God bless.
The basic premise is that we are all "children of wrath" by nature under condemnation apart from Christ. ( Eph. 2:3). If we cannot understand that man's heart is estranged from God; and that at best we try to avoid the consequences of sin rather than have any true remorse for offending a Holy; righteous and just God then we simply are living out a works based theology. Titus 1:15 shows further how our best actions are contaminated and defiled.
Human love only shows true affection for those who love us ( Matthew 5:46-48). To love those who "despitefully use us" ( Matthew 5:44) takes a change of heart; a Divine intervention and infusion of the Holy Spirit again which is given by God ( Ezekiel 36:26).
From OUR perspective we see ourselves drawn to the one from all eternity who created all things. ( Ecclesiastes 3:11). This verse shows again how even THIS is instigated in man's conscience by God. We need to realize that there is a process involved; as the parable of the seed and the sowers indicates. The seed from God (again planted on His initiative) is introduced; and ultimately must progress until "fruit is produced" (see also Matthew 3:8). TRUE repentance will overcome temptations that the Lord uses to prune us; as He "chastises all those He loves" ( Heb. 12:6; etc). God therefore initiates salvation; and the whole sanctification process ultimately leading to glorification ( Romans 8:17).
When we are saved; we have new desires to serve God and rejoice in the thought of service to Him now and in eternity. We begin a process of mortification of the deeds of the flesh ( Romans 8:13). From our perspective; we need to accept the truth about ourselves and our utter hopelessness apart from Christ in our own strength. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom ) Proverbs 9; Psalm 111; etc). Jeremiah 32:40 shows God gives that