Thanks for reading that long post. I try to avoid posting lengthy posts but sometimes you just need more space to say the things you want to say. I used to have a wrong view on predestination thinking that it didn't matter if I thought I was saved if God spreader predetermined my fate. I hope what I posted will help those who might have the same thoughts.
By the way, I have been following along in the thread where you were accused of being in err and I don't see the error. I do agree with the things you've said and your proper interpretation of scripture.
All the earth , the sun the moon the stars the planets the air we breathe , all belongs to and is sustained by God , the Holy One of Israel . We humans own nothing .
2 Corinthians chapter 4 like to know is this talking about the devil and coming into our lives and that the way to fight it is feed the spirit not the flesh I'm pretty sure I know what it says and what it means I just like a second opinion thank you
There is an interesting contrast when you look at the Greek words for "love" used in John 21:15-17. When Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love me?" in John 21:15-16, He used the Greek word "agape," this Love us immeasurable, it means to be totally given in to! Only the Holyspirit can produce this.
Both times, Peter responded with "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you," using the Greek word phileo, which refers more to a brotherly/friendship type of love.
The third time Jesus asks, "Do you love me?" in John 21:17, He uses the word phileo! The Lord reduced the measure of love to peters and our capability.
Notice Peters reaction "Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, "phileo" thou me?"
The Lord knew Peter couldn't Agape him because the Holyspirit wasn't given to them yet.
I believe he was tasking Peter pointing him back to what he thought he could do on his own strength in Matthew 26:31-35.
It do well to note all the disciples thought they would be willing to die with Christ.
The Lord forewarned Peter in
Luke 22:31-32. And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
In the John account we see two interesting things right before the bold statement from Peter and the disciples,
First
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Later they showed this was a command they couldn't do on their own.
Second.
The commandment wasn't given until after Judas departed.
John 13:26-30.
All these scriptures suggests all our service we do don't even begin until after the New birth through baptism of the Holyspirit.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13.
Well; I am fairly safe to assume based on the end of Malachi that Elijah will come before the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" ( Malachi 4:5). In John the Baptist; Jesus stated that he had come which signifies a type of ministry of repentance in the same spirit; as it were. One could rely on Hebrews 9:27 in stating that man is destined to once die then face the Judgment to say that the only other person translated and missing death was Enoch. Hence; the other witness to come and die in the end times.
There are disputes apparently in the angelic realm about the burial of Moses as seen in the Book of Jude. It seems clear; however that he was buried by God; being told DIRECTLY that he would die there just short of physically entering into the land of Promise.
He did talk as the other member present during the Transfiguration; but there is no scriptural proof that somehow Moses escaped death. Others are seen; such as John the Revelator who Jesus merely said "if he is to remain alive until I come what is that to you" ( John 21:22 loosely translated).
In any case; I hope this doesn't end up being a contentious debate. The power given by God to these witnesses will attempt to be mimiced by the False Prophet bringing "fire down from heaven" and also the mark of God's people in Rev. 7 on the 144,000 and undoubtably protecting the 2 Prophets will also be copied with the Beast's mark. Signs and wonders will truly be present; there will be no atheists and lukewarm believers at last.
Baptism is a big deal to God. Such a big deal, a person was sent in advance of Jesus specifically to baptize people to prepare for Jesus. It was a big deal to Jesus that He was baptized Himself, and invited those around Him to be baptized. It's such a big deal it even says in the Bible to be baptized. It's written in the form of a command. It is a conditional statement. Do this, and this is the result. Whether someone likes it or not salvation is mentioned in the same sentence in Acts 2:38 for example. Also read: Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, John 3:5, Galatians 3:26-27, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 2:41.
Just as people were resistant to follow Jesus in His day, we have people who read the above verses and dismiss them as important or "unnecessary." Man tries so hard to perform mental gymnastics to avoid doing something God wants us to do. He comes up with all these creative interpretations of cherry picked verses claiming that when it says to be baptized, it doesn't actually mean it, or is symbolic, or no longer applies, or [fill in the blank].
What it comes down to is do you believe the Bible verses above or not? Do want to follow Jesus or not?
Is there a risk of being baptized? No.
Is there a risk of not being baptized? Yes.
How is this not an easy decision?
Bible clearly says to be baptized, but why is someone who wants to follow Jesus so adamant about not doing it? Physically you're wet for a couple minutes, then you dry off. Similar to what most people normally do daily anyway. So, the hesitancy probably isn't because of that. What else would motivate people to try so hard to disobey Jesus then? Embarrassment? Many do it publicly, but you can also do it privately. What else makes people so desperate to disobey Jesus then? Something inside them is resisting. Maybe searching ones heart and motives and praying and study of the scriptures might help reveal ones real motives behind this.
WHEN you are born again into TRUTH and LIFE ( John 14:6), by the blood of Christ, YOU are no longer a GENTILE.
Romans 2:28 For he IS NOT A JEW which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29 But HE IS A JEW, which is one inwardly; and that circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Revelation 3:9 Behold I WILL MAKE THEM of the synagogue of Satan, which SAY THEY ARE JEWS, AND ARE NOT, BUT DO LIE; behold I WILL MAKE THEM to come and worship before thy feet, to know that I have loved thee.
I just want to say that I appreciate the way you write to me, trying to be polite and careful not to offend me although we are not in agreement sometimes. Unfortunately I am no like that, and I understand that I must correct myself. I often get enthusiastic with a debate and the way I write sounds sometimes rude the least, if not hostile. Sorry if I offended you, it's really nice to have conversations together
Hello Bro. Dan let me remind you that Jesus had no sin...But as the sacrifical dove ( thats y the dove descened on him marking him as our sacrficial Dove ) In the time of Moses if a house had a leprosy or a scall or anyone with a leprosy or sin they wd have to fetch 2 turtle doves and the priest wd have to kill one of the doves by running water and sprinkle his blood on the living bird,...Then the living bird was set free in an open field....TURTLE DOVES ARE LOVERS FOR LIFE....Its picture of Christ and the Church which are lovers....Husbands love your wives as Christ LOVED the Church and gave his life for it...But 1 of the doves had to be killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird which is the Church
......Whom the sons sets free is free indeed....We are the Church the living bird...The Jordan was running water where Christ and the Church was washed by John who was of the tribe of levi....Only the tribe of levi cd do this washing /baptism.
.....This is y Jesus had to be baptised,..It was NOT FOR SIN but to fulfill the law of Moses...As all the law had to be fulfilled...In the Book of Song of Solomon the 2 lovers are Christ and the Church and they refer to each other as having Doves eyes....She tells him he has doves eyes and he tells her she has doves eyes...I think that is y the dove descened on Jesus marking him as our sacrificial Dove that wd have to be be killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird the Church Humanity
.....Whom the sons sets free is free indeed....While the King sits at his table my spikenard sends for a sweet smell, in the time of Moses after a house had been cleansed...They had to offer up a sweet smell to the Lord...Here comes Mary with her alabaster box of ointament...The whole house was filled with odor of her sweet ointment...AND ALL THIS WAS DONE IN THE HOUSE OF SIMON THE LEPER...Lots of times i think of this and i beleive this is Y Jesus was baptised so that he cd die for the sins of the world....But he had no sin....
Shelby, I agree with Jesse here in his explanation. The text is not saying we abandon or turn from the basic doctrines of Christ, but that we move onward from them as our foundation and build upon them as we grow in knowledge of the Word and in grace and in knowledge of Jesus Christ. We go on to, as Paul has said to be continually filled with the Holy Spirit, walking in the Spirit, bringing for the spiritual fruits of this walk, and being transformed to become more and more like Christ, from glory to glory. It also means to continue to learn correct doctrine as we encounter various aspects of the Christian life lived out in the community of believers.
We are not to just sit and go round and round in the things we first learned and believed in our conversion, as important and vital as these were to bring us into right fellowship with God through Christ. We are to make progress in theology and in our grasping of the riches of being a child of God, who God grows up in the one true faith. We grow in our love for one another and step into areas of service as the Lord opens up opportunities that are Spirit led. We go from being newby learner to mature instructor to others as we teach, correct, encourage, and witness to others with the Word of God and with the example of our lifestyle.
Tagging onto your comment about the "water" being the Word and not the water. I think that I would add this: Just going into water to be baptized for cleansing of the flesh is not what Christian baptism is about. It is about applying physical water and spiritual water (Jesus' Words-in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) that marks Christian baptism apart from any other form of ritual baptism. It is the pairing of water and Word that brings about the cleansing spoken of in Scripture. The Words of Jesus are powerful and when applied as He commanded, they accomplish the purpose that God has for the action of physical water baptism.
Thanks Bro dan, I agree with you completely. I think it is very clear in the Gospel that this is the very first step for a new believer to go to be accepted in the Body of Christ, the congregation of all people saved by God, the universal church, the saints. Baptism in water is a one of the main doctrines/dogmas in Christianity in the vast majority of denominations/churches.since the very beggining.
Hello Giannis GBU ....But let me have your attention for just a sec.....The nite he was betrayed he took the cup and said this is
MY blood of the New COVENANT...Drink ye all of it....The Cross was a New Covenant in his blood for the sins of the world including mans Conscience....If water baptism cd have given us a clean Conscience then Jesus shed his blood in vain...And there wd have been no need for the shedding of his blood or a New Covenant....Water baptism was fine b/f the CROSS THAT NEW COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD....Many in the early Church was still water bapting....But the Church was young....They didn't realize the enomity and Vastness of the Cross that New COVEANT IN HIS BLOOD....It was God Almighty that initiated this New Covenant with the blood of his only son.
...... Hebrews 9 : 14...How much more shall the BLOOD of Christ Jesus Who thru the eternal Spirit that was without spot offer up himself to God purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the Living God.
....Thats what God was trying to tell Peter in that vision...What i have made clean ( by the blood of the lamb my New Blood Covenant ) do not call common or unclean by commanding water baptism.....Which was beautiful b/f the Cross....But when Jesus said it was finished that was the end of that old covenant....Now its the lamb of God....Even John who gave us water baptism said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...John neva said behold water baptism....John tells Jesus i have need to be baptised of you....impling H.G. BAPTISM.
...Even in the O.T. They had to apply blood to the doorpost...They cd not apply water to the doorpost....But now under this New Covenant we apply the blood to the doorpost of our hearts...By hearing his words that incorruptible seed that is gonna form a baby Christ in us....This New Covenant is a birthing Covenant thats y he has to know us....Thats y he is saying unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child..She brought forth a manchild.
In Hebrews 6:1, the writer is making reference back to the last section of Chapter 5 that talks about the basic doctrinal principles. He says leaving the principles (Basic principles) of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection, which means maturity. In other words, if a person has been a believer for many years, they should be at a further level of maturity in Christ, beyond the basic principles.
Now when he says leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, he doesn't mean leave Christ, or even do away with the doctrines. It's the principles, the beginnings of the things of Christ. And then he lists them for us. There are six of them, as he presents them.
Not laying again the foundation, and please notice the term again. How many times do you have to repent, and how many times do you have to receive Christ before you're saved? Some people do it all the time, in every church meeting, because they say if you want to be saved, just come forward.
But it says not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works. That's important for a Jew, who would be told that by living according to the Old Testament, or the Tanak, or the law, those are dead works. They are not going to do you any good. That's not going to save you. You need to repent from that system and follow Christ! But you see, once they've done that, you don't have to keep doing that all the time.
Secondly: And of faith towards God. It makes it sound like we should leave having faith in God. No, it's from one to the other. Once you just follow Christ, you're just in one direction rather than a contrast between repentance from dead works, and then secondly, faith toward God. Hopefully, this makes sense?
It was the same with Cain and Abel. They both bring their sacrifice. Abel's was received. Cain's was rejected. Just to show you his heart, because it was rejected, he killed his brother. That just goes to show you why it wasn't received!
Look at the Edomites today, the descendants of Ishmael. Do they turn to Israel and say "You're God's chosen people, praise God! And we're your neighbors. In fact, we're relatives. Praise God again. Let's just serve God together."
Isn't that what they are doing in the Middle East? No! There is hatred and violence against Israel and some of the Arab nations and the people in the Arab nations don't know why, but it's just "the way they do things!" It's really rebellion against God's choice. God didn't make them that way.
So Verse 29 says "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son."
Because I am in Christ, I have been predestined by God to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. That is the head of the body of Christ, as He is.
If anyone took the time to read through all I've shared here, I just want to say thank you. I know it was long but I felt the need to share this in order that people might know that every single person has an opportunity to receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and personal Savior. God will not reject anyone who genuinely calls out to Him for mercy and salvation.
So just leaving you with that, and you can look up the word predestinate in a concordance. But hopefully what I've shared with you, you will be able to see that it always points to what God has predestinated us believers to be before Him.
That really solves all the arguments and the divisions in the body of Christ. Some people just want to send people to Hell. They say "You know God chose you to go to Hell." Well, that's good news. I'm glad to hear that!
But Christ died for everybody. He knows ahead of time who's going to receive Him, but He never makes anybody receive Him or reject Him. We see more of this in Romans Chapter 9. The argument is that if God chooses everything and everybody to be the way they are, then how can I be violating His will or His word? "I'm only being what He chose me to be!"
So Paul's going to say "Is there unrighteousness with God? You mean He chose you to be an unrighteous person? That's His will for your life?" No, He didn't!
There are some certain principles in the text that's going to teach us exactly God's approach to the whole thing. How did He choose Jacob over Esau before they were even born? "Jacob I have loved, and Esau I have hated."
What a terrible thing, unless you understand the wording and what it's applied to. Before they were born and before they did good or evil, God chose one of them through which would be the promised line of Messiah.
That's not choosing Heaven or Hell, or righteousness or unrighteousness. Even Ishmael, when God said to Abraham that if Sarah wants to get out of here with her son, let them go. I'll take care of them.
Here's an example I can give to explain it. If you were going to go in and apply for a job, one of the things you want to know is what are the benefits, what you have predestined for the person that's going to take that spot. What kind of dental care do you have? What kind of health benefits do you have? What's the pay going to be?
All of these things are predestined ahead of time for the person that's offered the job and accepts the job. So if I walk in and I give my interview and they say we want you to work here and we want you to do this job if you are willing to do it, and I accept, I have all of these benefits waiting for me. They're mine!
And that is the presentation that Paul always makes, is that we are inheritors in Christ. And before the foundation of the world, things were chosen and predestined for us, (that is, everybody that is saved).
Predestination in the bible never has anything to do with predestinating people for Heaven or Hell. It's never used that way. But people will say "Having predestinated us," and they stop right there and they say, "You see, I'm one of the "us" because I got predestined to be an "us."
But that's not what it says. He's talking to saved people, not unsaved people. Every single time the word predestinated is used in the scriptures, it always makes reference to part of our inheritance in Christ. If He did not choose me and predestine me to be holy and without blame before Him in His love, I'd never be able to stand before Him. But I've received Christ as part of my inheritance.
Now I'm not saying that great scholars like Calvin and some of the others are wrong. I can see in their presentations and their arguments over the years that they did the best with what they had.
If I diagram and do a schematic of that whole chapter and show where the antecedents are and who are the we's and us's, I see that it's always the saved people, not to the unsaved.
Hello Chris, it's always nice to talk to you. What you have written in your post seems to be right. But let me explain my thoughts.
God offers salvation, man has to accept it. We often talk about works that do not bring salvation to people. But we often call works things that are not works. Is believing in Jesus and acceptance of His sacrifice a work or not? According to the definition that I have read in posts so far, yes it is since it is something that a man does. So also obeying God's commandments are works of men? That do not save? But that is playing with words, isn't it? In our relationship with God a part is always done by God and a part is always done by man
Noe was selected by God to be saved. God offered him and his family salvation. But He also showed them the way to be saved. They had to build a ship. To do a work. If Noe didn't
do that was he going to be saved? The answer is no he wasn't. So back now to NT when God says that the one who believes and (then)is baptised will be saved, the one who doesn't believe (and subsequently is not baptised) will not be saved, what do we understand? Do we understand that that is an obligation for salvation or a choice? I believe the former. As I replied to brother Doug since John and Jesus had to do their share in Jesus' baptism, then it means that it was an obligation so that God's righteousness was fulfilled. So isn't it the same with us, since the same commandment is written for us as well? If Jesus wasn't willing to be baptized would His work for man's salvation proceed? No.
So whether we consider baptism as a means of salvation or just a commandment that we must obey it doesn't really matter, it still remains a requirement for salvation. Like Noe it is the way shown to us to live and not die, the spiritual death.
Now if somebody is in no position to obey God like the thief on the cross next to Jesus who couldn't be baptized, of course God doesn't held him accountable for that.
Here is the Ephesians text: Ephesians 1:4-5 says "According as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world."
Remember Verses 3 through 14 is all one sentence in the Greek text. And I want to make a technical point. Whenever you have a noun, like a person, and you mention this person's name, and throughout the paragraph or chapter, you want to make reference to that person, you don't keep mentioning his name.
Let's say his name is Jesse. You don't keep saying Jesse in every sentence. Once you're introduced to the person, you make reference to "him," and "he."
Those are all pronouns and its antecedent is Jesse so that whenever you see he or him in the sentences, you know who this person is talking about.
So Jesse becomes the antecedent once it's introduced. Now what is interesting, do you see the pronouns? According as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.
Who is the "Us?" And that we should be holy without blame before Him in love. Having predestinated us for adoption.
In this text, in Verses 3 through 14, the subject in the Greek text is in Verses 13 and 14 way beyond all of this. So the antecedent to us and we, who is the us and we?
So I got to find out who or what the antecedent is for us and we. If you go to Verses 13 and 14, it tells you. "We who have heard the gospel, we who have believed, and we who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of God. That's who the us and we are!
God has predestinated us, having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ. The adoption process has been predestined for us so that we can become children of God, according as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world. Later on it says that He has predestinated us to be holy without blame, just like He did in Verse 4.
I would like to share my understanding on predestination. This may be a little long, but I think it is an important topic that should be addressed.
I am reading over Romans 8:29 which reads, "For whom he did foreknow, (know ahead of time), he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Please allow me to share a little bit with you about predestination. Actually, predestination in the bible is very simple to understand. In Ephesians 1:3-14, in the Greek text, these verses are all one sentence. And that's the chapter that most people focus on when it comes to predestination.
The most prominent teaching on predestination that we have today comes from John Calvin and there are differences, as people take different turns with it as to what predestination means.
But the one that's going around that people hold to a lot is that predestination means that God predestines or chooses those who are going to be saved ahead of time, and He predestines those who are going to go to Hell ahead of time.
So according to that belief, you are chosen and predestined as to whether you are going to go to Heaven or Hell. You have no choice. There's no free will according to this teaching. You are either predestined one way or the other.
But please notice in this text, in context, what it says. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." Predestinate what? "To be conformed to the image of his Son."
Predestination is never associated with salvation in the bible. You will always see the word associated with those who are already saved. And it won't be salvation. It's what has been predestined or chosen for us as part of our inheritance.
Dear Jennifer, I read this request of yours often here. I pray for you when I do. I hope you are doing well and are able to keep up with the demands of your work.
Dear Heavenly Father, help Jennifer today and every day she goes to work and completes what is asked of her in her job. Give her strength and clearness of mind so that she can do a worthy job for her boss and customers. Sustain her throughout the day with Your Presence and strength. And when she returns home after work, give her restful sleep. We sk this of You Father, in the nameof Your Son, Jesus. Amen.
Many ideas exist about our Lord the Bible does not support.
That is how I know I am following what is true, if the Bible supports the belief I will believe.
By this, I know better than to follow the David Koreshes or any other false doctrines.
I hear about people following men's teachings the Bible does not support and many lives end in tragedy.
Therefore, what Peter taught is true, if we rest the Scriptures it is to our own destruction. ( 2 Peter 3:16)
I only go by the Bible and any doctrine that the Bible supports.
The Bible teaches we lived with God before the world was formed and you believe we lived in His thoughts I understand.
But there are more Biblical passages saying we lived with Him, literally, before the world was and I believe we lived with Him as spirits.
Listen to the prophet Micaiah speaking to the king of Israel and the king of Judah,
Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. ( 2 Chronicles 18-21)
Hello Giannis GBU ....But let me have your attention for just a sec.....The nite he was betrayed he took the cup and said this is
MY blood of the New COVENANT...Drink ye all of it....The Cross was a New Covenant in his blood for the sins of the world including mans Conscience....If water baptism cd have given us a clean Conscience then Jesus shed his blood in vain...And there wd have been no need for the shedding of his blood or a New Covenant....Water baptism was fine b/f the CROSS THAT NEW COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD....Many in the early Church was still water bapting....But the Church was young....They didn't realize the enomity and Vastness of the Cross that New COVEANT IN HIS BLOOD....It was God Almighty that initiated this New Covenant with the blood of his only son.
...... Hebrews 9 : 14...How much more shall the BLOOD of Christ Jesus Who thru the eternal Spirit that was without spot offer up himself to God purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the Living God.
....Thats what God was trying to tell Peter in that vision...What i have made clean ( by the blood of the lamb my New Blood Covenant ) do not call common or unclean by commanding water baptism.....Which was beautiful b/f the Cross....But when Jesus said it was finished that was the end of that old covenant....Now its the lamb of God....Even John who gave us water baptism said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...John neva said behold water baptism....John tells Jesus i have need to be baptised of you....impling H.G. BAPTISM.
...Even in the O.T. They had to apply blood to the doorpost...They cd not apply water to the doorpost....But now under this New Covenant we apply the blood to the doorpost of our hearts...By hearing his words that incorruptible seed that is gonna form a baby Christ in us....This New Covenant is a birthing Covenant thats y he has to know us....Thats y he is saying unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child..She brought forth a manchild.
Thanks for reading that long post. I try to avoid posting lengthy posts but sometimes you just need more space to say the things you want to say. I used to have a wrong view on predestination thinking that it didn't matter if I thought I was saved if God spreader predetermined my fate. I hope what I posted will help those who might have the same thoughts.
By the way, I have been following along in the thread where you were accused of being in err and I don't see the error. I do agree with the things you've said and your proper interpretation of scripture.
Many blessings to you!!!
Wasn't trying to be argumentative or begin a new one. Just sharing what your post prompted me to post. Have a good afternoon.
There is an interesting contrast when you look at the Greek words for "love" used in John 21:15-17. When Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love me?" in John 21:15-16, He used the Greek word "agape," this Love us immeasurable, it means to be totally given in to! Only the Holyspirit can produce this.
Both times, Peter responded with "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you," using the Greek word phileo, which refers more to a brotherly/friendship type of love.
The third time Jesus asks, "Do you love me?" in John 21:17, He uses the word phileo! The Lord reduced the measure of love to peters and our capability.
Notice Peters reaction "Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, "phileo" thou me?"
The Lord knew Peter couldn't Agape him because the Holyspirit wasn't given to them yet.
I believe he was tasking Peter pointing him back to what he thought he could do on his own strength in Matthew 26:31-35.
It do well to note all the disciples thought they would be willing to die with Christ.
The Lord forewarned Peter in
Luke 22:31-32. And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
In the John account we see two interesting things right before the bold statement from Peter and the disciples,
First
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Later they showed this was a command they couldn't do on their own.
Second.
The commandment wasn't given until after Judas departed.
John 13:26-30.
All these scriptures suggests all our service we do don't even begin until after the New birth through baptism of the Holyspirit.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13.
See Part 5.
God bless.
There are disputes apparently in the angelic realm about the burial of Moses as seen in the Book of Jude. It seems clear; however that he was buried by God; being told DIRECTLY that he would die there just short of physically entering into the land of Promise.
He did talk as the other member present during the Transfiguration; but there is no scriptural proof that somehow Moses escaped death. Others are seen; such as John the Revelator who Jesus merely said "if he is to remain alive until I come what is that to you" ( John 21:22 loosely translated).
In any case; I hope this doesn't end up being a contentious debate. The power given by God to these witnesses will attempt to be mimiced by the False Prophet bringing "fire down from heaven" and also the mark of God's people in Rev. 7 on the 144,000 and undoubtably protecting the 2 Prophets will also be copied with the Beast's mark. Signs and wonders will truly be present; there will be no atheists and lukewarm believers at last.
Agape. Rich P
Just as people were resistant to follow Jesus in His day, we have people who read the above verses and dismiss them as important or "unnecessary." Man tries so hard to perform mental gymnastics to avoid doing something God wants us to do. He comes up with all these creative interpretations of cherry picked verses claiming that when it says to be baptized, it doesn't actually mean it, or is symbolic, or no longer applies, or [fill in the blank].
What it comes down to is do you believe the Bible verses above or not? Do want to follow Jesus or not?
Is there a risk of being baptized? No.
Is there a risk of not being baptized? Yes.
How is this not an easy decision?
Bible clearly says to be baptized, but why is someone who wants to follow Jesus so adamant about not doing it? Physically you're wet for a couple minutes, then you dry off. Similar to what most people normally do daily anyway. So, the hesitancy probably isn't because of that. What else would motivate people to try so hard to disobey Jesus then? Embarrassment? Many do it publicly, but you can also do it privately. What else makes people so desperate to disobey Jesus then? Something inside them is resisting. Maybe searching ones heart and motives and praying and study of the scriptures might help reveal ones real motives behind this.
WHEN you are born again into TRUTH and LIFE ( John 14:6), by the blood of Christ, YOU are no longer a GENTILE.
Romans 2:28 For he IS NOT A JEW which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29 But HE IS A JEW, which is one inwardly; and that circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Revelation 3:9 Behold I WILL MAKE THEM of the synagogue of Satan, which SAY THEY ARE JEWS, AND ARE NOT, BUT DO LIE; behold I WILL MAKE THEM to come and worship before thy feet, to know that I have loved thee.
God Bless You.
I just want to say that I appreciate the way you write to me, trying to be polite and careful not to offend me although we are not in agreement sometimes. Unfortunately I am no like that, and I understand that I must correct myself. I often get enthusiastic with a debate and the way I write sounds sometimes rude the least, if not hostile. Sorry if I offended you, it's really nice to have conversations together
GBU
only light can do that. Hate can not drive out hate; only love can do that." MLK. Jr.
......Whom the sons sets free is free indeed....We are the Church the living bird...The Jordan was running water where Christ and the Church was washed by John who was of the tribe of levi....Only the tribe of levi cd do this washing /baptism.
.....This is y Jesus had to be baptised,..It was NOT FOR SIN but to fulfill the law of Moses...As all the law had to be fulfilled...In the Book of Song of Solomon the 2 lovers are Christ and the Church and they refer to each other as having Doves eyes....She tells him he has doves eyes and he tells her she has doves eyes...I think that is y the dove descened on Jesus marking him as our sacrificial Dove that wd have to be be killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird the Church Humanity
.....Whom the sons sets free is free indeed....While the King sits at his table my spikenard sends for a sweet smell, in the time of Moses after a house had been cleansed...They had to offer up a sweet smell to the Lord...Here comes Mary with her alabaster box of ointament...The whole house was filled with odor of her sweet ointment...AND ALL THIS WAS DONE IN THE HOUSE OF SIMON THE LEPER...Lots of times i think of this and i beleive this is Y Jesus was baptised so that he cd die for the sins of the world....But he had no sin....
We are not to just sit and go round and round in the things we first learned and believed in our conversion, as important and vital as these were to bring us into right fellowship with God through Christ. We are to make progress in theology and in our grasping of the riches of being a child of God, who God grows up in the one true faith. We grow in our love for one another and step into areas of service as the Lord opens up opportunities that are Spirit led. We go from being newby learner to mature instructor to others as we teach, correct, encourage, and witness to others with the Word of God and with the example of our lifestyle.
Tagging onto your comment about the "water" being the Word and not the water. I think that I would add this: Just going into water to be baptized for cleansing of the flesh is not what Christian baptism is about. It is about applying physical water and spiritual water (Jesus' Words-in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) that marks Christian baptism apart from any other form of ritual baptism. It is the pairing of water and Word that brings about the cleansing spoken of in Scripture. The Words of Jesus are powerful and when applied as He commanded, they accomplish the purpose that God has for the action of physical water baptism.
MY blood of the New COVENANT...Drink ye all of it....The Cross was a New Covenant in his blood for the sins of the world including mans Conscience....If water baptism cd have given us a clean Conscience then Jesus shed his blood in vain...And there wd have been no need for the shedding of his blood or a New Covenant....Water baptism was fine b/f the CROSS THAT NEW COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD....Many in the early Church was still water bapting....But the Church was young....They didn't realize the enomity and Vastness of the Cross that New COVEANT IN HIS BLOOD....It was God Almighty that initiated this New Covenant with the blood of his only son.
...... Hebrews 9 : 14...How much more shall the BLOOD of Christ Jesus Who thru the eternal Spirit that was without spot offer up himself to God purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the Living God.
....Thats what God was trying to tell Peter in that vision...What i have made clean ( by the blood of the lamb my New Blood Covenant ) do not call common or unclean by commanding water baptism.....Which was beautiful b/f the Cross....But when Jesus said it was finished that was the end of that old covenant....Now its the lamb of God....Even John who gave us water baptism said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...John neva said behold water baptism....John tells Jesus i have need to be baptised of you....impling H.G. BAPTISM.
...Even in the O.T. They had to apply blood to the doorpost...They cd not apply water to the doorpost....But now under this New Covenant we apply the blood to the doorpost of our hearts...By hearing his words that incorruptible seed that is gonna form a baby Christ in us....This New Covenant is a birthing Covenant thats y he has to know us....Thats y he is saying unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child..She brought forth a manchild.
In Hebrews 6:1, the writer is making reference back to the last section of Chapter 5 that talks about the basic doctrinal principles. He says leaving the principles (Basic principles) of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection, which means maturity. In other words, if a person has been a believer for many years, they should be at a further level of maturity in Christ, beyond the basic principles.
Now when he says leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, he doesn't mean leave Christ, or even do away with the doctrines. It's the principles, the beginnings of the things of Christ. And then he lists them for us. There are six of them, as he presents them.
Not laying again the foundation, and please notice the term again. How many times do you have to repent, and how many times do you have to receive Christ before you're saved? Some people do it all the time, in every church meeting, because they say if you want to be saved, just come forward.
But it says not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works. That's important for a Jew, who would be told that by living according to the Old Testament, or the Tanak, or the law, those are dead works. They are not going to do you any good. That's not going to save you. You need to repent from that system and follow Christ! But you see, once they've done that, you don't have to keep doing that all the time.
Secondly: And of faith towards God. It makes it sound like we should leave having faith in God. No, it's from one to the other. Once you just follow Christ, you're just in one direction rather than a contrast between repentance from dead works, and then secondly, faith toward God. Hopefully, this makes sense?
It was the same with Cain and Abel. They both bring their sacrifice. Abel's was received. Cain's was rejected. Just to show you his heart, because it was rejected, he killed his brother. That just goes to show you why it wasn't received!
Look at the Edomites today, the descendants of Ishmael. Do they turn to Israel and say "You're God's chosen people, praise God! And we're your neighbors. In fact, we're relatives. Praise God again. Let's just serve God together."
Isn't that what they are doing in the Middle East? No! There is hatred and violence against Israel and some of the Arab nations and the people in the Arab nations don't know why, but it's just "the way they do things!" It's really rebellion against God's choice. God didn't make them that way.
So Verse 29 says "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son."
Because I am in Christ, I have been predestined by God to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. That is the head of the body of Christ, as He is.
If anyone took the time to read through all I've shared here, I just want to say thank you. I know it was long but I felt the need to share this in order that people might know that every single person has an opportunity to receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and personal Savior. God will not reject anyone who genuinely calls out to Him for mercy and salvation.
God Bless!!!
So just leaving you with that, and you can look up the word predestinate in a concordance. But hopefully what I've shared with you, you will be able to see that it always points to what God has predestinated us believers to be before Him.
That really solves all the arguments and the divisions in the body of Christ. Some people just want to send people to Hell. They say "You know God chose you to go to Hell." Well, that's good news. I'm glad to hear that!
But Christ died for everybody. He knows ahead of time who's going to receive Him, but He never makes anybody receive Him or reject Him. We see more of this in Romans Chapter 9. The argument is that if God chooses everything and everybody to be the way they are, then how can I be violating His will or His word? "I'm only being what He chose me to be!"
So Paul's going to say "Is there unrighteousness with God? You mean He chose you to be an unrighteous person? That's His will for your life?" No, He didn't!
There are some certain principles in the text that's going to teach us exactly God's approach to the whole thing. How did He choose Jacob over Esau before they were even born? "Jacob I have loved, and Esau I have hated."
What a terrible thing, unless you understand the wording and what it's applied to. Before they were born and before they did good or evil, God chose one of them through which would be the promised line of Messiah.
That's not choosing Heaven or Hell, or righteousness or unrighteousness. Even Ishmael, when God said to Abraham that if Sarah wants to get out of here with her son, let them go. I'll take care of them.
One more part, I promise!!!
Here's an example I can give to explain it. If you were going to go in and apply for a job, one of the things you want to know is what are the benefits, what you have predestined for the person that's going to take that spot. What kind of dental care do you have? What kind of health benefits do you have? What's the pay going to be?
All of these things are predestined ahead of time for the person that's offered the job and accepts the job. So if I walk in and I give my interview and they say we want you to work here and we want you to do this job if you are willing to do it, and I accept, I have all of these benefits waiting for me. They're mine!
And that is the presentation that Paul always makes, is that we are inheritors in Christ. And before the foundation of the world, things were chosen and predestined for us, (that is, everybody that is saved).
Predestination in the bible never has anything to do with predestinating people for Heaven or Hell. It's never used that way. But people will say "Having predestinated us," and they stop right there and they say, "You see, I'm one of the "us" because I got predestined to be an "us."
But that's not what it says. He's talking to saved people, not unsaved people. Every single time the word predestinated is used in the scriptures, it always makes reference to part of our inheritance in Christ. If He did not choose me and predestine me to be holy and without blame before Him in His love, I'd never be able to stand before Him. But I've received Christ as part of my inheritance.
Now I'm not saying that great scholars like Calvin and some of the others are wrong. I can see in their presentations and their arguments over the years that they did the best with what they had.
If I diagram and do a schematic of that whole chapter and show where the antecedents are and who are the we's and us's, I see that it's always the saved people, not to the unsaved.
God offers salvation, man has to accept it. We often talk about works that do not bring salvation to people. But we often call works things that are not works. Is believing in Jesus and acceptance of His sacrifice a work or not? According to the definition that I have read in posts so far, yes it is since it is something that a man does. So also obeying God's commandments are works of men? That do not save? But that is playing with words, isn't it? In our relationship with God a part is always done by God and a part is always done by man
Noe was selected by God to be saved. God offered him and his family salvation. But He also showed them the way to be saved. They had to build a ship. To do a work. If Noe didn't
do that was he going to be saved? The answer is no he wasn't. So back now to NT when God says that the one who believes and (then)is baptised will be saved, the one who doesn't believe (and subsequently is not baptised) will not be saved, what do we understand? Do we understand that that is an obligation for salvation or a choice? I believe the former. As I replied to brother Doug since John and Jesus had to do their share in Jesus' baptism, then it means that it was an obligation so that God's righteousness was fulfilled. So isn't it the same with us, since the same commandment is written for us as well? If Jesus wasn't willing to be baptized would His work for man's salvation proceed? No.
So whether we consider baptism as a means of salvation or just a commandment that we must obey it doesn't really matter, it still remains a requirement for salvation. Like Noe it is the way shown to us to live and not die, the spiritual death.
Now if somebody is in no position to obey God like the thief on the cross next to Jesus who couldn't be baptized, of course God doesn't held him accountable for that.
Thanks for your reply Chris GBU
Here is the Ephesians text: Ephesians 1:4-5 says "According as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world."
Remember Verses 3 through 14 is all one sentence in the Greek text. And I want to make a technical point. Whenever you have a noun, like a person, and you mention this person's name, and throughout the paragraph or chapter, you want to make reference to that person, you don't keep mentioning his name.
Let's say his name is Jesse. You don't keep saying Jesse in every sentence. Once you're introduced to the person, you make reference to "him," and "he."
Those are all pronouns and its antecedent is Jesse so that whenever you see he or him in the sentences, you know who this person is talking about.
So Jesse becomes the antecedent once it's introduced. Now what is interesting, do you see the pronouns? According as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.
Who is the "Us?" And that we should be holy without blame before Him in love. Having predestinated us for adoption.
In this text, in Verses 3 through 14, the subject in the Greek text is in Verses 13 and 14 way beyond all of this. So the antecedent to us and we, who is the us and we?
So I got to find out who or what the antecedent is for us and we. If you go to Verses 13 and 14, it tells you. "We who have heard the gospel, we who have believed, and we who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of God. That's who the us and we are!
God has predestinated us, having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ. The adoption process has been predestined for us so that we can become children of God, according as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world. Later on it says that He has predestinated us to be holy without blame, just like He did in Verse 4.
I would like to share my understanding on predestination. This may be a little long, but I think it is an important topic that should be addressed.
I am reading over Romans 8:29 which reads, "For whom he did foreknow, (know ahead of time), he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Please allow me to share a little bit with you about predestination. Actually, predestination in the bible is very simple to understand. In Ephesians 1:3-14, in the Greek text, these verses are all one sentence. And that's the chapter that most people focus on when it comes to predestination.
The most prominent teaching on predestination that we have today comes from John Calvin and there are differences, as people take different turns with it as to what predestination means.
But the one that's going around that people hold to a lot is that predestination means that God predestines or chooses those who are going to be saved ahead of time, and He predestines those who are going to go to Hell ahead of time.
So according to that belief, you are chosen and predestined as to whether you are going to go to Heaven or Hell. You have no choice. There's no free will according to this teaching. You are either predestined one way or the other.
But please notice in this text, in context, what it says. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." Predestinate what? "To be conformed to the image of his Son."
Predestination is never associated with salvation in the bible. You will always see the word associated with those who are already saved. And it won't be salvation. It's what has been predestined or chosen for us as part of our inheritance.
Dear Heavenly Father, help Jennifer today and every day she goes to work and completes what is asked of her in her job. Give her strength and clearness of mind so that she can do a worthy job for her boss and customers. Sustain her throughout the day with Your Presence and strength. And when she returns home after work, give her restful sleep. We sk this of You Father, in the nameof Your Son, Jesus. Amen.
what does it mean to "leave the doctrines of Christ" and to go on into perfection...should we leave the "doctrines of Christ"?
Thank you for your insight.
I am a truth seeker.
Many ideas exist about our Lord the Bible does not support.
That is how I know I am following what is true, if the Bible supports the belief I will believe.
By this, I know better than to follow the David Koreshes or any other false doctrines.
I hear about people following men's teachings the Bible does not support and many lives end in tragedy.
Therefore, what Peter taught is true, if we rest the Scriptures it is to our own destruction. ( 2 Peter 3:16)
I only go by the Bible and any doctrine that the Bible supports.
The Bible teaches we lived with God before the world was formed and you believe we lived in His thoughts I understand.
But there are more Biblical passages saying we lived with Him, literally, before the world was and I believe we lived with Him as spirits.
Listen to the prophet Micaiah speaking to the king of Israel and the king of Judah,
Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. ( 2 Chronicles 18-21)
MY blood of the New COVENANT...Drink ye all of it....The Cross was a New Covenant in his blood for the sins of the world including mans Conscience....If water baptism cd have given us a clean Conscience then Jesus shed his blood in vain...And there wd have been no need for the shedding of his blood or a New Covenant....Water baptism was fine b/f the CROSS THAT NEW COVENANT IN HIS BLOOD....Many in the early Church was still water bapting....But the Church was young....They didn't realize the enomity and Vastness of the Cross that New COVEANT IN HIS BLOOD....It was God Almighty that initiated this New Covenant with the blood of his only son.
...... Hebrews 9 : 14...How much more shall the BLOOD of Christ Jesus Who thru the eternal Spirit that was without spot offer up himself to God purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the Living God.
....Thats what God was trying to tell Peter in that vision...What i have made clean ( by the blood of the lamb my New Blood Covenant ) do not call common or unclean by commanding water baptism.....Which was beautiful b/f the Cross....But when Jesus said it was finished that was the end of that old covenant....Now its the lamb of God....Even John who gave us water baptism said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...John neva said behold water baptism....John tells Jesus i have need to be baptised of you....impling H.G. BAPTISM.
...Even in the O.T. They had to apply blood to the doorpost...They cd not apply water to the doorpost....But now under this New Covenant we apply the blood to the doorpost of our hearts...By hearing his words that incorruptible seed that is gonna form a baby Christ in us....This New Covenant is a birthing Covenant thats y he has to know us....Thats y he is saying unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child..She brought forth a manchild.
Thank you.