I do not wish to be contentious here, but please show me in the Scripture where it says that Acts is a "transitional book".
I do not recall ever reading that. It is a teaching of man, I think. It is part of dispensationalism and harks of ultra dispensationalism. You often state that your thinking is straight from the Scriptures, taking it literally and rightly dividing it, but you espouse many doctrines that were taught by Bullinger, Scofield, and others in the "dispensational sect". You may not know about these people, but you can look them up and see how your doctrines align with them. So, I am thinking that you do not get all of your beliefs and doctrines straight from Scriptures, rather you get some from the teachings of men, who have interpreted Scripture in ways that differ greatly from historic Christian thought.
Therefore, to your words, "the Spirit doesn't become flesh (man)" - the Spirit remains as God's Spirit. God took His Word & clothed the Word (Jesus) with human flesh ( John 1:1-14). And this act cannot be an impossible task for God. Is anything too hard for the LORD? Jesus lived out His Days in holiness & worked by the Power of God's Spirit within Him. And this Holy Spirit is the same as Jesus' Spirit, even as Paul declared ( Romans 8:9), & Peter as well ( 1 Peter 1:11).
Question: how can the Spirit of Christ be the same as God's Spirit ( Romans 8:9), if Jesus is not eternally a part of the Godhead? As Christians, we have the Holy Spirit within, but none of us can say that He has replaced our spirit with His Spirit ( Romans 8:16). Our spirits will always exist, but now we have another Spirit Who will "abide with us forever" ( John 14:16). But Jesus Spirit was only the Holy Spirit, & not a human spirit, because He came from the Father Who is Spirit ( John 17:5).
Thank you One Eighty. Referring to 'dualism', i.e. its spiritual aspects & not its other definitions seen in politics, ethics, law, etc. It is defined as "two equal & opposing realities - one of good, the other of evil". And this is clearly gnostic in nature, where the understanding is that 'the flesh can only be evil & the spirit only good - therefore the two can never be fused together'.
And this would be true if Jesus did not just take on pure human flesh, but took on sinful flesh - this is dualism. Remember, the flesh that God gave to Adam & Eve wasn't sinful - so not every instance of flesh equates to sin. The flesh that Jesus came in was not sinful (He came in the "LIKENESS of sinful flesh", i.e. as our flesh is composed of atoms, cells, blood, etc.), but Jesus would have become just like us (in our sinful flesh), if He succumbed to Satan. Satan attempted to replicate what he did to our first parents onto Jesus - Satan succeeded with them, but failed with the last Adam, the Son of God.
So, the incarnation of Jesus can never be dualism, as God did not enter sinful flesh (contrary to gnostic belief about flesh equating to sin), but came into pure flesh. How would we account for the Holy Spirit coming into & residing in a believer in Christ? Surely, that can't happen as we are sinners, albeit forgiven & cleansed. But the Word says this does happen ( John 14:17), showing that God sees us as clean vessels, in which His Spirit is pleased to dwell & interact with our renewed born again human spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot reside with an uncleansed, unrenewed human spirit. So we see a further departure from gnostic thought - that God can indeed come into sinful flesh, but only when the spirit within has been made new.
In Matthew 1:20-21 we have the account of the angel of the Lord appearing to Joseph in a dream telling him that Mary will become pregnant by the Holy Spirit and the child will be called Jesus (Jesus means YHWH is salvation), for He will save His people from their sins.
And goes on to say in vs 22-23 that this event will fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14
"Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
This verse says that Jesus is YHWH and that He is Immanuel (God with us). So, for me, I believe that Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Spirit is God comprising a Godhead of three distinct Persons in one Godhead.
Thank you for participating in this interesting and important conversation with Adam.
I just want to enter the conversation here and address what you said about "in the beginning". This was not speaking of God having a beginning (He didn't. He is eternal and everlasting and ever-existing). Nor does it speak of the beginning for the Word, the Son of God, (Jesus). (He always exists as one of the persons of the Godhead.)
It is speaking of the very beginning of creation. When only the Triune Godhead existed eternally, nothing else existed until the Godhead chose to create everything else that is and has existed. This "everything" does not include God (Elohim) which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The three Persons of the One Godhead existed forever outside of time and space. When the Godhead created everything, this included all spiritual beings and realms and all material creatures and the physical realm (all that is made of matter, all of the energy and powers that affect the physical realm (time, gravity, + and - charges in atoms, sound waves, radio waves, magnetism-for example.) These things were created (made from no pre-existing materials), made (made of the materials God created), and formed (as with man, from materials that God had created). Jesus is not one of these creations nor was He made in the beginning. That has long been considered heretical teaching. When the Word, became flesh, the second Person of the Godhead God took upon Himself humanity with all of its aspects, body, soul, spirit. The Father (the first person of the Godhead) created the DNA to join with Mary's ova to conceive this humanity that from that moment of conception on united the second person of the Godhead (the Word) with humanity. That is why the church has taught through the centuries that (the Word who is God ( John 1:1) always existed and is always God, but this union of the Word who is God and humanity in Jesus did have a beginning at conception.
I have never spoken in tongues; although felt on the verge of it on occasion. I had been told by Pentacostals that I had to speak in tongues to be saved; which clearly is errant as God gives gifts severally as He chooses. Nonetheless; I am not going to discount that it is still occurring today; as I have known examples of those in my life with that gifting. However; it is clear with the Kundalini type spirit as one false manifestation that a demonic tongue certainly exists as do many imitations by Satan of God's good gifts from above. Again the lack of discernment is appalling when we see obvious possession taking away any possibility of things being "decent and in order" ( 1 Cor. 14:40). Tongues also rarely are interpreted although I have met individuals who claim they have heard it done properly on occasion.
It seems to me that there are prayer languages for personal edification; as well as ones to be interpreted in a church congregational setting. Again; to see the forest through the trees it should always be the GIVER of the gifts not the gifts themselves that is sought when we ask for more of the Holy Spirit. That is a prayer Christ Himself is said to fulfill ( Luke 11:13). The fear of God; and impending doom for the unbeliever fits in with the general ministry of the Spirit found in John 16:8-11 where sin; righteousness and judgment to come pierce men's hearts. There are verses where both a sign for nonbelievers and believers is what tongues is said to be meant for. ( 1 Cor. 14:22; 25). This could be the two types of tongues I mentioned or the purpose of ministry emphasizing one gift over the other; in this case prophecy. I'll let someone else tackle that. Again; there should be a surrendered; victorious; fruit bearing life as evidence of tongues or any other gift. Immature believers in the Corinthian church had gifts; but had to be severely rebuked for Paul to set them straight. The transformation shows that they were saved.
I feel it isn't worth arguing the validity today of spiritual deliverance as it applies to the church. God may choose to manifest differently much of the time in this part of the church age; but Satan never sleeps ( 1 Peter 5:8); so by default neither do his minions; although it seems he doesn't have to work that hard today the way people are so depraved. I am reminded of the verse "without a vision the people perish". ( Prov. 29:18). We must be pure at heart to see the Kingdom of God; and strong enough to have become Ephesians 6 "Full armor" candidates to do any real spiritual damage. This of course requires much prayer; and occasional fasting as scripture also showed with the demon infested boy who tried to drown himself.
There is argument as well as to whether a Christian can be possessed or just oppressed. I have certainly in my subconscious been attacked since being a Christian. In any case; when we fail to be proactive in praying against the temptations that are common to us all (although I can't find the verse) we are weakening ourselves as a Body. We need to pray for the Spirit to remove those things that bind our brothers and sisters in the Lord; and which blind others from the truth who God is calling to come to the cross. If the enemy can block prayer; then all the events which are planned are lackluster and missing the power they could have had otherwise. We need to also recognize how Satan works through our family and friends; those opposing the Gospel; fellow workers; those on the street who are blaspheming God; finances; and a myriad of troubles which take our focus away from the Gospel. We need to repent of sins; or God will allow a stronghold to make us miserable. We also must forgive others; as scripture indicates 70 X 7.
We must realize as Jude stated we DARE not go after Satan with a railing accusation ( Jude 1:9). We appeal to Christ or we are dead meat basically. He will lead us to those needing prayer
Jesus' sinless fleshly body (humanity) was priceless. His body (humanity) was not worthless. His body (humanity) was what allowed Him to die for us and take away our sins. His body (humanity) was the means of God reconciling mankind to Himself. So, we should not discount the worth of Jesus' humanity and material body. To speak of the body as worthless and the spirit as being of value is quintessential gnostic thought.
As with the other "signs and wonders" gifts; questions exist of healings today as were the case in the Apostolic era. The verse in Corinthians ( 1 Cor. 13:10) which states that certain things will pass once the perfect comes leads some to question whether that means the end of Canon being written or when Christ Himself comes as to when tongues; healings; prophesyings and other such things will end. It is certainly clear that prophecy will characterize the Tribulation with the signs and wonders of destruction being given to the two prophets.
Strictly from an impartial view; there are instances when "spontaneous" healings seem to occur with cancer disappearing; for example. I am not aware of any doctors ever describing a limb growing back; however. There are also some so called healings that are clearly faked. These would; more often than not involve TV evangelists who have "healing" gifts assigned to a preacher. Often there is not good documentation from any reliable doctors; and testimony other than from the individual involved (such as family members; friends). We certainly don't hear of warnings like Christ had to "go and sin no more" nor have the discernment as to whether an ailment is because of sin; demonic influence or no fault of the individual; ALL which are dealt with in specific incidences differently in scripture.
God works out all gifts in distributing as He will. There certainly should be more prayer in general in churches for illnesses as well as a myriad of other needs. There is no indication that healing is mutually exclusive to seeing doctors; in fact the O.T. rules of seeing the Priest were mentioned by Christ on occasion after healing. General wisdom on proper care is important as well.
Proverbs 17:22 also shows how joy can bring healing; particularly for the soul. I have seen too many lives prolonged after prayer; so we should pray particularly for the saints and meet needs whenever possible.
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
When a lion roars he's seeking to divide the prey.
They're also amongst us as seen here in
Matthew 7:15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
CONCLUSION.
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
FOR WE WRESTLE NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD, BUT AGAINST PRINCIPALITIES, AGAINST POWERS, AGAINST THE RULERS OF THE DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD, AGAINST SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES. Eph 6:11-12.
Even the word "devil" can be translated as "to divide."
The devil loves chaos. Ever since his fall from Heaven Satan seeks to divide the world. His first action was to divide the angels, which was followed-up by tempting Adam and Eve in the garden, driving a wedge between the first humans and God.
Division is the devil's playground and it shouldn't be surprising. The word "devil," comes from the Greek word diabolos, which can be translated as, "to divide," "to separate," or more literally, "to throw against." Whenever we see division occur in the world, especially division that pits one group in society against another, we can affirm that the devil is in some way behind it. He wants us to destroy ourselves and hatred against other people is one of the fastest ways we become the authors of our own demise.
Jesus, on the other hand, desires unity.
I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one. ( John 17:20-22)
The Holy Trinity is the prime example of unity and communion, something we will ultimately participate in if we reach Heaven someday. Heaven will essentially be "communion," where we are unified not only with God, but with each other.
Above all, we need to strive for unity in truth, coming together to fight against injustices with charity. If we can stay united together under the leadership of Jesus Christ, we are able to thwart the plans of the devil.
End article.
BE VISUAL!!
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 1:4.
I'm not able to follow your thought process on all your points, but some. I think most of your points fall within the same logic/belief that Jesus prayed and referred to the Father as "God" and even prayed to "God" therefore how can Jesus be God and pray to Himself? Am I understanding your position accurately? If so, I think most of your "If Jesus is God..." arguments seem to fall within this one overall assumption.
The thing missing from this assumption is that Jesus is not in His normal state. He became a man to go to earth to live as us and to die for our sins. John 1. Yes, Jesus prayed to God the Father. I believe He limited His power to a degree to live on Earth like us. I think He could have exercised His power, but chose not to. Example: Matthew 26:53.
Philippians 2:6 - this says Jesus is equal to God. Verse 7-8 says he humbled Himself as a servant as a man. v9-11 then Jesus was exalted, that every knee will bow and confess Jesus is Lord, name above all other names.
If you believe the Bible when it says that says Jesus created all things ( John 1:3 ), is equal to God ( phil 2:6), is one with God ( John 10:30), is God ( John 1:1), has a name above all other names ( Phil 2:9-11), should be baptized in His name ( Matthew 28:19) then is it such a stretch to believe that's true?
Simply believing what the Bible says is not a 'doctrine' as some claim, but those believing things the Bible doesn't say is definitely a human doctrine.
I get that people have a hard time comprehending that God is plural and how exactly that words out. We will find out in the end. But just because people don't understand 1 John 5:7 doesn't mean it's not true. Truth is true regardless of whether people choose to believe it or not.
John 8:58 - What do you think Jesus meant when he said "I am"?
Exodus 3:14 - What do you think of God saying "I am"?
John 5:23 - strong warning to anyone who dishonors Jesus.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, "THAT THEY MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST" that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:19.
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A FALSE WITNESS THAT SPEAKETH LIES, AND HE THAT SOWETH DISCORD AMONG BRETHREN. Proverbs 6:16-19.
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18.
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:8-9.
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. Jude 1:16-19.
Yes I understood the same way you do. I just wanted to ensure that we saved as many people on this site. That is why it is important to take time to explain based on the Bible. The Book of Acts is a transitional book. Luke did a magnificent job inspired by God writing the chain of events after Jesus Christ died on the cross. Peter and the rest of the Apostles concentrated on preaching to the Jews, but when they have rejected it three times Paul went to the Gentiles. But Jews and Gentiles today can be saved by the mystery of the Gospel of Paul 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. We are saved by grace through faith. We are baptized by trusting on Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection meaning trusting on the blood of Jesus Christ. Christ Jesus already went to the most Holiest of Holy to sprinkle His own blood as the Jews did on earth. So anybody today can be saved by that blood. Once you are saved, the mysteries are revealed by the Holy Spirit. We are the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, knowing Christ in you.
Colossians 1:18; Colossians 1:24-27; Ephesians 1:13; Romans 8:9-11; Ephesians 4:30; 1 Corinthians 3:16 and many more I can share. So knowing we are saved, we know the mystery of the rapture. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Revelation 3:3. We are watching and praying with thanksgiving.
We are on the last days and we want all to be saved. We are here on earth to fulfill God's purpose - To trust God and to do God's will. Nothing of anything good we do. Rejoice evermore! I am so happy to communicate with you David. Have a blessed weekend.
I appreciate your respectul remarks and am ok with continuing to dialog as long as that remains.
I can offer a challenge to few of your points in your last comment.
1. John 1:1 says, "In the beginning", God does not have a beginning.
It sounds like you are using this as evidence to support your view. I don't view it that way at all. First, this says "in the beginning" not "in God's beginning" or "in the Word's beginning". So, this phrase doesn't suggest any limitation on God whatsoever, but is just marking for us in our own human terms that Jesus was always there.
Do you remember Jesus saying this: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." That doesn't mean He's limited, but the opposite, it means He spans everything! Revelation 22:13 - notice the words in red that Jesus said that.
It also says this in Revelation 1:8, notice it says "says the Lord". Lord is Greek word kurios which is supreme authority or God. Some translations say "says the Lord God" and is the same meaning. This is Jesus speaking about Himself, it too is in red.
Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." - notice this is the same claim Jesus made in Revelation. If there's only one and only one who makes that claim then it seems logical that the claim in both the New and Old Testament are from the same being.
Revelation 11:17 - This uses the same word Lord (kurios) of which Jesus is Lord ( Romans 10:9) and uses the word theos (God) with it, so it calls Jesus "Lord God." Do you agree? How do you feel about this verse?
Isaiah 43:11 - "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." So, it says Jesus is Lord and our savior in the New Testament and there's no other Lord. Here in the OT it also says the Lord is the savior and no one else. That is all in alignment with John 10:30. Yes?
Hi David, I don't know where your heart is in regards to your public comment- that is between you and God.
I know from past experience that people have used similar arguments in a dishonest way, however, in attempt to discredit God. I noticed you claimed those who believe in the trinity as it says in 1 John 5:7 didn't start until constantinople. That is untrue. People would have believed in the Godhead the first time they heard or read the scriptures, because its direct from scripture. 1 John 5:7, John 1:1, Philippians 2:6, and numerous verses that talk about the Godhead and plural "we" and "us" for God all align for even a child to understand that God consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. God is aware of our hearts and any attempts to discredit Him or spread false info will be taken seriously. Those who disrespect, dishonor, slander Jesus may not even be saved according to John 5:23.
The Bible does not teach that spirit and flesh (made of matter) are opposites nor that they oppose each other. It is the sinful nature that opposes all that God created good in us. At times the Bible speaks of the spirit warring against the flesh. In this context, Flesh is used as a synonym for the sinful nature, which is immaterial, but manifests sin through our physical being, (mind, body, soul, spirit, emotions) Of these, only the body is material, but it is not evil nor opposing to our immaterial aspects.
Dualism teaches that the material world, (all that is made of matter, including our bodies) is evil and only what is spiritual is good. But Satan is a spirit being and he is the most evil of all. And Jesus was God Incarnate (became human in all senses of the word) yet was sinless and pure and good. Classical dualism teaches that the physical universe, including fleshly bodies) was made by an evil spiritual entity (demi-urge) who opposes the good Spiritual entity who made all that is spiritual. It teaches that these two entities are equal but antagonistic to one another. So, while many Christians do not embrace dualism in the classical sense, some embrace the tenet of dualism by saying that what is physical (made of matter) therefore, our fleshly bodies, is only evil and that our new spiritual nature in Christ is only good.
The Scriptures say that God is everlasting and eternal, without beginning nor being created and will never cease to exist. Life and existence belong wholly to Him. They do not exist outside of God, meaning He did not acquire them from anything outside of Himself. He always has possessed these.
Genesis 21:33 (Eternal)
Isaiah 63:16 (Everlasting)
Isaiah 26:4 (Rock eternal)
Jeremiah 10:10 (the living God, the Eternal King)
Romans 16:26 (Eternal God)
1Tim 1:17 (unto the King eternal immortal)
Hebrews 9:14 (eternal Spirit)
1John 5:20 (He is the true God and Eternal life)
Ps. 93>2 (You are from all eternity)
Deuteronomy 33:27 (Eternal)
1 Chronicles 16:36 (the God of Irael, from everlasting to everlasting)
Nehemiah 9:5 (who is from everlasting to everlasting)
Isaiah 9:6 (Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace)
Isaiah 40:28 (The Lord is the Everlasting God)
Habakkuk 1:12, (O lord, are You not rom everlasting?)
Yes, I think Gnosticism in earliest forms predates Jesus. For a period, parts of their belief system paralleled Christian thought in the first to third centuries.
Philippians 2:6-8. So, being in the form of God (Spirit), Jesus didn't see it as taking away from God by claiming His equality with God; because Jesus has the Mind of God. Jesus took on the "form" of a servant (man), made to look like man, being found in fashion of man. Jesus appeared as a body named Jesus. John 6:63 : The words He speaks are spirit and life, not flesh which profits nothing (counts as nothing). I can only speculate Paul thought Jesus was only a body, or both (dualism). Spirit or body. Will the real Jesus please stand up.
I do not wish to be contentious here, but please show me in the Scripture where it says that Acts is a "transitional book".
I do not recall ever reading that. It is a teaching of man, I think. It is part of dispensationalism and harks of ultra dispensationalism. You often state that your thinking is straight from the Scriptures, taking it literally and rightly dividing it, but you espouse many doctrines that were taught by Bullinger, Scofield, and others in the "dispensational sect". You may not know about these people, but you can look them up and see how your doctrines align with them. So, I am thinking that you do not get all of your beliefs and doctrines straight from Scriptures, rather you get some from the teachings of men, who have interpreted Scripture in ways that differ greatly from historic Christian thought.
Therefore, to your words, "the Spirit doesn't become flesh (man)" - the Spirit remains as God's Spirit. God took His Word & clothed the Word (Jesus) with human flesh ( John 1:1-14). And this act cannot be an impossible task for God. Is anything too hard for the LORD? Jesus lived out His Days in holiness & worked by the Power of God's Spirit within Him. And this Holy Spirit is the same as Jesus' Spirit, even as Paul declared ( Romans 8:9), & Peter as well ( 1 Peter 1:11).
Question: how can the Spirit of Christ be the same as God's Spirit ( Romans 8:9), if Jesus is not eternally a part of the Godhead? As Christians, we have the Holy Spirit within, but none of us can say that He has replaced our spirit with His Spirit ( Romans 8:16). Our spirits will always exist, but now we have another Spirit Who will "abide with us forever" ( John 14:16). But Jesus Spirit was only the Holy Spirit, & not a human spirit, because He came from the Father Who is Spirit ( John 17:5).
Thank you One Eighty. Referring to 'dualism', i.e. its spiritual aspects & not its other definitions seen in politics, ethics, law, etc. It is defined as "two equal & opposing realities - one of good, the other of evil". And this is clearly gnostic in nature, where the understanding is that 'the flesh can only be evil & the spirit only good - therefore the two can never be fused together'.
And this would be true if Jesus did not just take on pure human flesh, but took on sinful flesh - this is dualism. Remember, the flesh that God gave to Adam & Eve wasn't sinful - so not every instance of flesh equates to sin. The flesh that Jesus came in was not sinful (He came in the "LIKENESS of sinful flesh", i.e. as our flesh is composed of atoms, cells, blood, etc.), but Jesus would have become just like us (in our sinful flesh), if He succumbed to Satan. Satan attempted to replicate what he did to our first parents onto Jesus - Satan succeeded with them, but failed with the last Adam, the Son of God.
So, the incarnation of Jesus can never be dualism, as God did not enter sinful flesh (contrary to gnostic belief about flesh equating to sin), but came into pure flesh. How would we account for the Holy Spirit coming into & residing in a believer in Christ? Surely, that can't happen as we are sinners, albeit forgiven & cleansed. But the Word says this does happen ( John 14:17), showing that God sees us as clean vessels, in which His Spirit is pleased to dwell & interact with our renewed born again human spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot reside with an uncleansed, unrenewed human spirit. So we see a further departure from gnostic thought - that God can indeed come into sinful flesh, but only when the spirit within has been made new.
Part 2
In Matthew 1:20-21 we have the account of the angel of the Lord appearing to Joseph in a dream telling him that Mary will become pregnant by the Holy Spirit and the child will be called Jesus (Jesus means YHWH is salvation), for He will save His people from their sins.
And goes on to say in vs 22-23 that this event will fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14
"Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
This verse says that Jesus is YHWH and that He is Immanuel (God with us). So, for me, I believe that Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Spirit is God comprising a Godhead of three distinct Persons in one Godhead.
Thank you for participating in this interesting and important conversation with Adam.
I just want to enter the conversation here and address what you said about "in the beginning". This was not speaking of God having a beginning (He didn't. He is eternal and everlasting and ever-existing). Nor does it speak of the beginning for the Word, the Son of God, (Jesus). (He always exists as one of the persons of the Godhead.)
It is speaking of the very beginning of creation. When only the Triune Godhead existed eternally, nothing else existed until the Godhead chose to create everything else that is and has existed. This "everything" does not include God (Elohim) which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The three Persons of the One Godhead existed forever outside of time and space. When the Godhead created everything, this included all spiritual beings and realms and all material creatures and the physical realm (all that is made of matter, all of the energy and powers that affect the physical realm (time, gravity, + and - charges in atoms, sound waves, radio waves, magnetism-for example.) These things were created (made from no pre-existing materials), made (made of the materials God created), and formed (as with man, from materials that God had created). Jesus is not one of these creations nor was He made in the beginning. That has long been considered heretical teaching. When the Word, became flesh, the second Person of the Godhead God took upon Himself humanity with all of its aspects, body, soul, spirit. The Father (the first person of the Godhead) created the DNA to join with Mary's ova to conceive this humanity that from that moment of conception on united the second person of the Godhead (the Word) with humanity. That is why the church has taught through the centuries that (the Word who is God ( John 1:1) always existed and is always God, but this union of the Word who is God and humanity in Jesus did have a beginning at conception.
continued
I have never spoken in tongues; although felt on the verge of it on occasion. I had been told by Pentacostals that I had to speak in tongues to be saved; which clearly is errant as God gives gifts severally as He chooses. Nonetheless; I am not going to discount that it is still occurring today; as I have known examples of those in my life with that gifting. However; it is clear with the Kundalini type spirit as one false manifestation that a demonic tongue certainly exists as do many imitations by Satan of God's good gifts from above. Again the lack of discernment is appalling when we see obvious possession taking away any possibility of things being "decent and in order" ( 1 Cor. 14:40). Tongues also rarely are interpreted although I have met individuals who claim they have heard it done properly on occasion.
It seems to me that there are prayer languages for personal edification; as well as ones to be interpreted in a church congregational setting. Again; to see the forest through the trees it should always be the GIVER of the gifts not the gifts themselves that is sought when we ask for more of the Holy Spirit. That is a prayer Christ Himself is said to fulfill ( Luke 11:13). The fear of God; and impending doom for the unbeliever fits in with the general ministry of the Spirit found in John 16:8-11 where sin; righteousness and judgment to come pierce men's hearts. There are verses where both a sign for nonbelievers and believers is what tongues is said to be meant for. ( 1 Cor. 14:22; 25). This could be the two types of tongues I mentioned or the purpose of ministry emphasizing one gift over the other; in this case prophecy. I'll let someone else tackle that. Again; there should be a surrendered; victorious; fruit bearing life as evidence of tongues or any other gift. Immature believers in the Corinthian church had gifts; but had to be severely rebuked for Paul to set them straight. The transformation shows that they were saved.
I feel it isn't worth arguing the validity today of spiritual deliverance as it applies to the church. God may choose to manifest differently much of the time in this part of the church age; but Satan never sleeps ( 1 Peter 5:8); so by default neither do his minions; although it seems he doesn't have to work that hard today the way people are so depraved. I am reminded of the verse "without a vision the people perish". ( Prov. 29:18). We must be pure at heart to see the Kingdom of God; and strong enough to have become Ephesians 6 "Full armor" candidates to do any real spiritual damage. This of course requires much prayer; and occasional fasting as scripture also showed with the demon infested boy who tried to drown himself.
There is argument as well as to whether a Christian can be possessed or just oppressed. I have certainly in my subconscious been attacked since being a Christian. In any case; when we fail to be proactive in praying against the temptations that are common to us all (although I can't find the verse) we are weakening ourselves as a Body. We need to pray for the Spirit to remove those things that bind our brothers and sisters in the Lord; and which blind others from the truth who God is calling to come to the cross. If the enemy can block prayer; then all the events which are planned are lackluster and missing the power they could have had otherwise. We need to also recognize how Satan works through our family and friends; those opposing the Gospel; fellow workers; those on the street who are blaspheming God; finances; and a myriad of troubles which take our focus away from the Gospel. We need to repent of sins; or God will allow a stronghold to make us miserable. We also must forgive others; as scripture indicates 70 X 7.
We must realize as Jude stated we DARE not go after Satan with a railing accusation ( Jude 1:9). We appeal to Christ or we are dead meat basically. He will lead us to those needing prayer
Jesus' sinless fleshly body (humanity) was priceless. His body (humanity) was not worthless. His body (humanity) was what allowed Him to die for us and take away our sins. His body (humanity) was the means of God reconciling mankind to Himself. So, we should not discount the worth of Jesus' humanity and material body. To speak of the body as worthless and the spirit as being of value is quintessential gnostic thought.
As with the other "signs and wonders" gifts; questions exist of healings today as were the case in the Apostolic era. The verse in Corinthians ( 1 Cor. 13:10) which states that certain things will pass once the perfect comes leads some to question whether that means the end of Canon being written or when Christ Himself comes as to when tongues; healings; prophesyings and other such things will end. It is certainly clear that prophecy will characterize the Tribulation with the signs and wonders of destruction being given to the two prophets.
Strictly from an impartial view; there are instances when "spontaneous" healings seem to occur with cancer disappearing; for example. I am not aware of any doctors ever describing a limb growing back; however. There are also some so called healings that are clearly faked. These would; more often than not involve TV evangelists who have "healing" gifts assigned to a preacher. Often there is not good documentation from any reliable doctors; and testimony other than from the individual involved (such as family members; friends). We certainly don't hear of warnings like Christ had to "go and sin no more" nor have the discernment as to whether an ailment is because of sin; demonic influence or no fault of the individual; ALL which are dealt with in specific incidences differently in scripture.
God works out all gifts in distributing as He will. There certainly should be more prayer in general in churches for illnesses as well as a myriad of other needs. There is no indication that healing is mutually exclusive to seeing doctors; in fact the O.T. rules of seeing the Priest were mentioned by Christ on occasion after healing. General wisdom on proper care is important as well.
Proverbs 17:22 also shows how joy can bring healing; particularly for the soul. I have seen too many lives prolonged after prayer; so we should pray particularly for the saints and meet needs whenever possible.
Deuteronomy 10:18, Deuteronomy 24:19,20,21,
Matthew 25:31-46,
Hopefully these are helpful understanding tithe
1 Peter 5:8.
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
When a lion roars he's seeking to divide the prey.
They're also amongst us as seen here in
Matthew 7:15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
CONCLUSION.
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
FOR WE WRESTLE NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD, BUT AGAINST PRINCIPALITIES, AGAINST POWERS, AGAINST THE RULERS OF THE DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD, AGAINST SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES. Eph 6:11-12.
Be visual.
God bless.
Time of Grace article on division.
Even the word "devil" can be translated as "to divide."
The devil loves chaos. Ever since his fall from Heaven Satan seeks to divide the world. His first action was to divide the angels, which was followed-up by tempting Adam and Eve in the garden, driving a wedge between the first humans and God.
Division is the devil's playground and it shouldn't be surprising. The word "devil," comes from the Greek word diabolos, which can be translated as, "to divide," "to separate," or more literally, "to throw against." Whenever we see division occur in the world, especially division that pits one group in society against another, we can affirm that the devil is in some way behind it. He wants us to destroy ourselves and hatred against other people is one of the fastest ways we become the authors of our own demise.
Jesus, on the other hand, desires unity.
I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one. ( John 17:20-22)
The Holy Trinity is the prime example of unity and communion, something we will ultimately participate in if we reach Heaven someday. Heaven will essentially be "communion," where we are unified not only with God, but with each other.
Above all, we need to strive for unity in truth, coming together to fight against injustices with charity. If we can stay united together under the leadership of Jesus Christ, we are able to thwart the plans of the devil.
End article.
BE VISUAL!!
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 1:4.
God bless.
I'm not able to follow your thought process on all your points, but some. I think most of your points fall within the same logic/belief that Jesus prayed and referred to the Father as "God" and even prayed to "God" therefore how can Jesus be God and pray to Himself? Am I understanding your position accurately? If so, I think most of your "If Jesus is God..." arguments seem to fall within this one overall assumption.
The thing missing from this assumption is that Jesus is not in His normal state. He became a man to go to earth to live as us and to die for our sins. John 1. Yes, Jesus prayed to God the Father. I believe He limited His power to a degree to live on Earth like us. I think He could have exercised His power, but chose not to. Example: Matthew 26:53.
Philippians 2:6 - this says Jesus is equal to God. Verse 7-8 says he humbled Himself as a servant as a man. v9-11 then Jesus was exalted, that every knee will bow and confess Jesus is Lord, name above all other names.
If you believe the Bible when it says that says Jesus created all things ( John 1:3 ), is equal to God ( phil 2:6), is one with God ( John 10:30), is God ( John 1:1), has a name above all other names ( Phil 2:9-11), should be baptized in His name ( Matthew 28:19) then is it such a stretch to believe that's true?
Simply believing what the Bible says is not a 'doctrine' as some claim, but those believing things the Bible doesn't say is definitely a human doctrine.
I get that people have a hard time comprehending that God is plural and how exactly that words out. We will find out in the end. But just because people don't understand 1 John 5:7 doesn't mean it's not true. Truth is true regardless of whether people choose to believe it or not.
John 8:58 - What do you think Jesus meant when he said "I am"?
Exodus 3:14 - What do you think of God saying "I am"?
John 5:23 - strong warning to anyone who dishonors Jesus.
God bless.
The clarity of scripture.
Matthew 7:15-20.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, "THAT THEY MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST" that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:19.
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A FALSE WITNESS THAT SPEAKETH LIES, AND HE THAT SOWETH DISCORD AMONG BRETHREN. Proverbs 6:16-19.
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18.
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:8-9.
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. Jude 1:16-19.
Matthew 7:15-20 !!
1 Peter 5:9-11.
Amen and God bless.
Yes I understood the same way you do. I just wanted to ensure that we saved as many people on this site. That is why it is important to take time to explain based on the Bible. The Book of Acts is a transitional book. Luke did a magnificent job inspired by God writing the chain of events after Jesus Christ died on the cross. Peter and the rest of the Apostles concentrated on preaching to the Jews, but when they have rejected it three times Paul went to the Gentiles. But Jews and Gentiles today can be saved by the mystery of the Gospel of Paul 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. We are saved by grace through faith. We are baptized by trusting on Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection meaning trusting on the blood of Jesus Christ. Christ Jesus already went to the most Holiest of Holy to sprinkle His own blood as the Jews did on earth. So anybody today can be saved by that blood. Once you are saved, the mysteries are revealed by the Holy Spirit. We are the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, knowing Christ in you.
Romans 16:25; Galatians 1:9-12; Galatians 2:1-14; Acts 15:11; Roman's 2:16; 1 Peter 1:10-12; 1Peter 1:18-20;
1Corinthians 4:1
Colossians 1:18; Colossians 1:24-27; Ephesians 1:13; Romans 8:9-11; Ephesians 4:30; 1 Corinthians 3:16 and many more I can share. So knowing we are saved, we know the mystery of the rapture. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Romans 9:1; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Galatians 1:20; 1 Timothy 2:7
Revelation 3:3. We are watching and praying with thanksgiving.
We are on the last days and we want all to be saved. We are here on earth to fulfill God's purpose - To trust God and to do God's will. Nothing of anything good we do. Rejoice evermore! I am so happy to communicate with you David. Have a blessed weekend.
Exodus 20:9,10, Exodus 23:12,
Even to build the house of GOD takes work, 2Kings 12:11, 2Kings 22:5,9, 1Chronicles 9:33, Nehemiah 4:21,
Proverbs 26:16, Proverbs 20:4, Proverbs 6:6-11, Proverbs 10:26,
Hopefully these are helpful
I appreciate your respectul remarks and am ok with continuing to dialog as long as that remains.
I can offer a challenge to few of your points in your last comment.
1. John 1:1 says, "In the beginning", God does not have a beginning.
It sounds like you are using this as evidence to support your view. I don't view it that way at all. First, this says "in the beginning" not "in God's beginning" or "in the Word's beginning". So, this phrase doesn't suggest any limitation on God whatsoever, but is just marking for us in our own human terms that Jesus was always there.
Do you remember Jesus saying this: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." That doesn't mean He's limited, but the opposite, it means He spans everything! Revelation 22:13 - notice the words in red that Jesus said that.
It also says this in Revelation 1:8, notice it says "says the Lord". Lord is Greek word kurios which is supreme authority or God. Some translations say "says the Lord God" and is the same meaning. This is Jesus speaking about Himself, it too is in red.
Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." - notice this is the same claim Jesus made in Revelation. If there's only one and only one who makes that claim then it seems logical that the claim in both the New and Old Testament are from the same being.
Revelation 11:17 - This uses the same word Lord (kurios) of which Jesus is Lord ( Romans 10:9) and uses the word theos (God) with it, so it calls Jesus "Lord God." Do you agree? How do you feel about this verse?
Isaiah 43:11 - "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." So, it says Jesus is Lord and our savior in the New Testament and there's no other Lord. Here in the OT it also says the Lord is the savior and no one else. That is all in alignment with John 10:30. Yes?
John 5:23 - we must honor Jesus.
I know from past experience that people have used similar arguments in a dishonest way, however, in attempt to discredit God. I noticed you claimed those who believe in the trinity as it says in 1 John 5:7 didn't start until constantinople. That is untrue. People would have believed in the Godhead the first time they heard or read the scriptures, because its direct from scripture. 1 John 5:7, John 1:1, Philippians 2:6, and numerous verses that talk about the Godhead and plural "we" and "us" for God all align for even a child to understand that God consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. God is aware of our hearts and any attempts to discredit Him or spread false info will be taken seriously. Those who disrespect, dishonor, slander Jesus may not even be saved according to John 5:23.
The Bible does not teach that spirit and flesh (made of matter) are opposites nor that they oppose each other. It is the sinful nature that opposes all that God created good in us. At times the Bible speaks of the spirit warring against the flesh. In this context, Flesh is used as a synonym for the sinful nature, which is immaterial, but manifests sin through our physical being, (mind, body, soul, spirit, emotions) Of these, only the body is material, but it is not evil nor opposing to our immaterial aspects.
Dualism teaches that the material world, (all that is made of matter, including our bodies) is evil and only what is spiritual is good. But Satan is a spirit being and he is the most evil of all. And Jesus was God Incarnate (became human in all senses of the word) yet was sinless and pure and good. Classical dualism teaches that the physical universe, including fleshly bodies) was made by an evil spiritual entity (demi-urge) who opposes the good Spiritual entity who made all that is spiritual. It teaches that these two entities are equal but antagonistic to one another. So, while many Christians do not embrace dualism in the classical sense, some embrace the tenet of dualism by saying that what is physical (made of matter) therefore, our fleshly bodies, is only evil and that our new spiritual nature in Christ is only good.
I concur with Jesse.
The Scriptures say that God is everlasting and eternal, without beginning nor being created and will never cease to exist. Life and existence belong wholly to Him. They do not exist outside of God, meaning He did not acquire them from anything outside of Himself. He always has possessed these.
Genesis 21:33 (Eternal)
Isaiah 63:16 (Everlasting)
Isaiah 26:4 (Rock eternal)
Jeremiah 10:10 (the living God, the Eternal King)
Romans 16:26 (Eternal God)
1Tim 1:17 (unto the King eternal immortal)
Hebrews 9:14 (eternal Spirit)
1John 5:20 (He is the true God and Eternal life)
Ps. 93>2 (You are from all eternity)
Deuteronomy 33:27 (Eternal)
1 Chronicles 16:36 (the God of Irael, from everlasting to everlasting)
Nehemiah 9:5 (who is from everlasting to everlasting)
Isaiah 9:6 (Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace)
Isaiah 40:28 (The Lord is the Everlasting God)
Habakkuk 1:12, (O lord, are You not rom everlasting?)
Isaiah 57:15 (the Lofty One, who lives forever
Hope these help.
Deuteronomy 4:2, Revelation 22:18-19
It says he that does not work, does not eat (Paraphrased) Does that mean exactly what it says. ??
If a man is to lazy to get out and work and take care of his family, he should not eat the food he didn't earn.??
Explain please
Yes, I think Gnosticism in earliest forms predates Jesus. For a period, parts of their belief system paralleled Christian thought in the first to third centuries.
Philippians 2:6-8. So, being in the form of God (Spirit), Jesus didn't see it as taking away from God by claiming His equality with God; because Jesus has the Mind of God. Jesus took on the "form" of a servant (man), made to look like man, being found in fashion of man. Jesus appeared as a body named Jesus. John 6:63 : The words He speaks are spirit and life, not flesh which profits nothing (counts as nothing). I can only speculate Paul thought Jesus was only a body, or both (dualism). Spirit or body. Will the real Jesus please stand up.
Peace.