Are we seeing with the church turning away from the true gospel of Christ the removal of God's candlesticks from the church? What about the 'falling away"?
Learning to Be More Like Jesus - In Reply - 1 year ago
Unforgiveness is sort of like a LAWSUIT without a Ruling or a Decision.
It takes way more ENERGY to maintain unforgiveness.
Forgive, in Jesus Name. Forbid Satan to keep stirring the ashes.
If that person refuses to drop the issue; that may be a friend you need to let go. Forgive. Take their name out of your contact list.
If 2 Christians "go to law" with each other, both of them are being heard in the Court of Heaven.
Our lives are harder when we don't read the Bible that often. We have great times together in here sorting through various scriptures that help explain things better. It's fun.
Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit all exhibit the uniqueness attributable only to God, even though each is somehow spoken of as separate from God. God is Triune and therefore difficult for humans to understand. Humans also have divisions that are not easily understandable, although not separate entities like the Trinity of God. We have spirits, souls, and bodies, and they 3 are one, as we see in 1 John 5:
1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Another reference to the divisions in men is found in Hebrews 4:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Another example can be gleaned from Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
It seems that there were those in Thessalonica who were refusing to work, assuming that since "Jesus would return at any minute", they didn't need to. Paul dispels the nonsense as laziness and reminds them of their previous policy when he was present. No work, no food.
God created man on the sixth day with two basic purposes by which he would fulfill his primary purpose to glorify God as a bearer of the Divine Image: working and multiplying. Perhaps multiplying could be left off in the New Testament Age based on Paul's teaching concerning singleness ( 1 Cor 7:7), and based on the fact that there seems to be no reproduction in eternity ( Mt 22:30). But working will be a part of our eternal existence. It is what we were made for, not only in this life but also in the next.
Each man and woman has been given a deposit of talent, energy, and resources. God will return and demand an account for our usage. Furthermore, he has promised that throughout our lives we are to live by the principle of stewardship and faithfulness, and we will be added increase as we prove capable. To refuse to work is an affront to the Creator and should not be rewarded or tolerated in the church.
The Gospel, unlike the Old Covenant, is not about rules, per se. It is about the grace of God that transforms a heart into a lover of God and his Kingdom and righteousness. But the apostles did sometimes give "rules" when necessary, and only those which accorded with grace and the Gospel. In this case, the problem of laziness was so prevalent, it had to be addressed as a rule.
There are certainly instances when a Christian is unable to work, whether because of a depressed economy, or a disability. But it is often the case that what is called inability is really an excuse for unwillingness. At nearly all costs, a human, an image-bearer of God, should make themselves useful and add value to their society.
Amen Chris Yes that John 17 : 5 is a very strong scripture to prove without a doubt that Christ is truly God the son and was with God before the world began....
Hi Gigi , if you have any doubt about the sword being a symbol for the Word of God , please read Ephesians Ch 6 , V 10-17 . This is what will be used to divide the goats from the sheep , the Word of God as spoken by Christ . We must try to keep his word or we will be judged as goats and cast away forever .
Hello all dear friends and Jesus saved people both women and men. When I came across some words today, just want to remind you of what Jesus said here: Luke 19:41-44.
God bless you all in Jesus holy name, i love you in Christ.
Remember and forgive all ppl their sins. Then we know that we are also forgiven by God. Luke 11:1-13
Hi Doug. All the Scriptures you've given are wonderful & indeed show Jesus Christ in His Humanity. I don't think anyone who believes in the deity of Christ could ever reject or even alter the meaning of those verses to suit some agenda. For so Jesus was: a Man on Earth & a Man in Heaven, now the mediator between God & men. But was He/is He just a Man?
The dispute doesn't exist with those precious verses. It exists when some believe that Jesus had no existence before He became a Man. Scriptures have been provided by several of us, to reveal this pre-incarnate Jesus - unfortunately, those Scriptures have been either been avoided, misconstrued or altered in meaning/application to reflect their belief. Personally, I have given those Scriptures several times, but on maybe one or two occasions over these years, none has ever come back to me with a desire to expound them further. So maybe I will try with you brother since you appear quite keen.
Just one verse: how do you understand John 17:5? "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What is Jesus saying in His prayer to His Father? Thank you.
Dear Mr Priday, Thanks for an interesting post, it was an easy read.
So it is also with the Kingdom of God. NOTHING IS Difficult.
If everything is in order with Apostles, Prophets, Miracles, Casting out evil spirits also further allows that one personally does not like. May have such a task in God's gifts. Would everyone have benefited from it.
Many leaders are afraid to let go of the Free Spirit, because then they themselves end up in the shadow of what is central. Because they are fighting a war with themselves.
LET THE SPIRIT RULE.
It is Jesus who must be central!
Put away the flesh and let the spirit lead.
Begin with praise and prayer.
Not the next meeting, for example. No one is perfect and it doesn't help anyone to think for themselves. As a rule, it turns out to be the opposite of what one thinks. And ALL who are to be leaders Must be a man and a woman. There we have the full Image of God.
If a man leads = for men.
If a woman leads = for women.
Unless man and woman stand together in leading. Will there be divisions in the flesh of Jesus. Because a congregation should not have a party for either men or women, it should serve them both.
I would like to point out that if the congregation does not consider a person to be neither a teacher nor a prophet. Then they make a big mistake in being biased and carnal. In such a congregation i would not have been standing. Because we all know what kind of gifts/presents we have received! And if the congregation does not let the gifts flow in the meetings, they will never see them either, and then it is easy to say that you do not have the gift you want to work in. Then the eye itself is sick. And needed and healed.
God bless u and yours in Jesus name, love u much in Christ. Luke 19:41-44
Hello Ronald. If I might add my understanding to some of the Scriptural references you gave.
Revelation 3:14: "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." The Greek for 'beginning' is 'arche', as we add that prefix to the words such as 'arch-enemy, arch-bishop, arch-rival. It certainly has the primary meaning of a 'beginning or first in line', but it clearly denotes 'one who holds the primary highest position/control over others'. That being the case, if Jesus first appeared as the creation by God in the womb of Mary, it could never be said that He was the beginning/first in line to all of God's Creation, which happened several millennia prior. But Jesus was there because He was involved in the creative Work ( John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2).
Colossians 1:15: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." I understand that 'firstborn' indicated here, refers to the 'rights & privileges' of the firstborn child (e.g. 2 Chronicles 21:3). All God's creation have received His Love & Care, but at the birth of His Son into humanity, Jesus, as the Son, was the first(born) to gain/inherit His Father's full estate, as well as enjoying "the fullness of God in Himself" ( Colossians 1:19). But the full riches of God to humanity could only be realized by those placing their trust in the Forerunner & Shepherd of their faith, Jesus Christ.
John 17:5: "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What was His Glory? We can assume all of God's Glory, for He is the Word of/from God, but even if that wasn't the case, Jesus, as the Word of God, had that Glory even before creation of the worlds.
You stated, "I honor the Son for what He gave up." If Jesus (the Word) didn't exist from eternity within the Person of God, & was only created from the womb of Mary, I wonder what He had to give up? Your responses have been very interesting.
I think your doctrine of not believing in Jesus's divinity requires a few hoops to jump through:
1. Not take John 1:1 literally that says Jesus (Word) is God
2. Ignore that God is plural 'we' and 'us' in Genesis
3. Assume that Jesus's behavior as a temporary man with limited power automatically means that that is how He normally is
4. Misinterpret the word "begotten"
5. Ignore the words Godhead and claim its a bad translation
6. Ignore that Jesus's name Immanuel means 'God with us'
7. Ignore 1 John 5:7-8 that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one, and try to dilute the word 'one' to make it seem insignificant.
8. Ignore John 1:3 that Jesus has always been and made everything and claim that Jesus was created later
9. Ignore that Jesus is the same I AM in the NT as the I AM in the OT
10. Ignore that Jesus is the same First/Last, Beginning/End in the NT as the same from God in the OT.
There's much more, but I'll stop at 10. I'm also not 100% sure you even read my last 2 replies so I don't want to spent energy on something you may not even read. There's an enormous about of verses supporting that Jesus is God and nothing clearly saying the opposite. For example if you found a verse that says 'Jesus is NOT God', then you would then only begin to your cause to counter the Bible already saying Jesus IS God in John 1:1, but we don't even have that.
With all the scriptural evidence here, is it possible you have any vested interest to prove that Jesus isn't God for another reason? If you read enough verses supporting that Jesus IS God, is that something you might reconsider someday or do you feel content with your current belief?
Do you believe Jesus is truly Lord like it says in Romans 10:9?
In Philippians 3:2, the term dogs in this text is actually making reference to a religious phrase. The Gentiles were considered dogs by the Jews.
There are two words in the New Testament that have to do with a dog. KUNARION is a household pet. And then we have a KUON. A KUON is a wild scavenger. And that's the animal used here.
Gentiles were called KUON'S, wild scavengers, impure, and grungy. So it was an insult to call somebody a KUON.
And so he's using the word KUON. He says beware of the dogs. That's the false teachers that come in.
Beware of evil workers, beware of the concision, which literally means mutilation.
PERITOME, to cut around, is the Greek word for circumcision. KATATOME, to cut off, is the word for mutilation. And Paul is using the exaggerated mind picture for us to say that people that go around cutting themselves in any way, shape, or form in order to better themselves spiritually, that's all they are doing is mutilating themselves.
Beware of those false teachers that say that you can come in and receive Christ, but you have to be circumcised. Beware of the evil workers. Beware of the dogs.
Your first point about "In the beginning" is the 2nd time you brought that up and I already responded to it- did you see it? Just scroll up. Not only that, GiGi also responded to you on that exact point too, but you still brought that false assumption up as 'evidence' against Jesus being God even after it was explained?
The next couple paragraphs seems hard to follow on how this relates to my previous comment.
The end of your comment I see you did respond not to the "I AM" question but to the "First/Last, Beginning/End" part. I see you are somehow viewing this as confirmation that Jesus has limits. This is strange to me, because this exact phrase means he does NOT have limits, that He spans all existence. What was significant about this is God in the Old Testament says this AND Jesus says it in the New Testament. And "I AM" was spoken by God in the Old Testament AND by Jesus in the New Testament. Do you understand the significance of this?
Finally, I can tell that your use of the word "begotten" is not the real meaning of that word. That word means "only". Jesus is God the Father's *only* son. See the Greek word here: Link
Some have misinterpreted this word, hopefully not intentionally, to make it seem as though Jesus was "created." But not only does that word not mean that, but the Bible already debunked this in advance, as if they even predicted people might one say start saying stuff like this.
John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
This means all things were made by Jesus and without Jesus, nothing else was made. In verses 1-2 before it, it clearly says Jesus was always there, and so was God the Father. Both of them together. This debunks the idea that God the Father created Jesus.
There is a mountain of Bible verses saying Jesus is God and not one that says the opposite. Even Jesus's name Immanuel is "God with us."
In the sense that one can initiate evangelism; and establish church congregations throughout an entire new region we could say that Apostles still exist today among men. Scripture would necessitate that women are called to other roles; however and obviously no Apostle today has physically been present with Christ as it was in the early church.
These sort of callings would also get into the type of administration giftings tied in with say a local church Pastor. It differs; however as to a more of an itinerant mentality; where the churches themselves have pastors groomed (much like Paul did with Timothy) before moving on to another local church and eventually perhaps to a whole other region to do the same thing.
It seems somehow to be similar to the roles that many organizations perform today; such as the Southern Baptist Convention.
Unfortunately; with all the dangerous teachings that those associated with these large organizations seem to dance around at best or compromise to their level at worst are always of concern. There are enough problems with the pagan cultures in an area and influence of "damnable heresies" trying to come in without having to concern ourselves with playing politics to keep donations coming in. So there may be a place for an Apostle today. Again; we must be cautious and remember even among Paul and Peter open rebuke was necessary to resolve issues. There also needs to be as Paul had a resolute determination through the Spirit and a clear calling no matter what the cost. The same issues are going on today in churches as in Paul's time; as well as internationally like in the USA. Many fall away for one reason or another; or are found particularly overseas to be tempted to want to have the Prosperity Gospel message promises. It seems from writings I have seen from the mid 20th century for instance that God will use signs and wonders more with the new fields for harvest; and seems to reach many Muslims that way today.
There is something to be said for those God has set in authority; when it is truly being performed according to the way Christ would have the church run. These would give the elder/pastor (essentially the same) as those who would in some degree be in charge; with the rest of us called to submit. Again; everyone needs to be accountable in a church with proper procedures for sin that can be proven with those in leadership positions as well as laypersons.
As I've stated in my earlier post; with those gifted in mercy; those with certain gifts tend to have weaknesses. Some of these things may be because of cultural things. Nonetheless; there is often a tendency to at best ignore those with other giftings that can work with the elders to be; for instance small group leaders in a teaching role. There also tends to be a disinterest in those who may have a pertinent word of wisdom or has discernment about certain individuals that needs to be expressed. There seems in general to be a great disfunction in churches today as how we all are to edify one another by using different gifts so we have a very misshapen body so to speak.
There can also be extremes; whether overly legalistic or "hypergrace"; simply boring delivery; too much emotional drama; etc.
Often in Reformed circles; sadly there can be a sort of paralysis if things aren't done exactly according to protocol; so that if a Pastor is sick things can't go on with someone else. TRUST is something sorely lacking in these situations; it is never wise when there are NO elders because a dictatorship type mentality can arise. Also; no servant is greater than His master; and we are never to assume that we are more important than say the janitor in a church or the kids; or single women. We have to be open to learning from others and sometimes having occasions when a crisis needs to break the Sunday routine to pray for others; for example. Overall; the church should be run decently and in order.
First; let me start off with what it is NOT. Teaching is not the result merely of degrees; training; status; or pedigree. Nor is it merely someone who has the bold temperament to preach to a crowd; an organized writer; or someone who can give an emotional or motivational delivery. As with anything else in the ministry; it is certainly unwise if one who wishes to be an elder or pastor doesn't have sufficient training and in fact a sober; mature individual with his family life well under control is scripturally mandated.
Unfortunately; the temptation to fall into pride is something that can affect especially young pastors as one who I had a few years back was willing to admit that he struggled with. Sadly as well today; many seminaries have gotten so off the trail of correct doctrine so they may have to act like Jesus did; adhering to the teachings of the Pharisees but not to their hypocritical lives and vain traditions of men. Funding always can get in the way; as money often does as a vice when churches are dependent on monies until a church becomes "official". The biggest issue may be how quantity of parishioners seems to be the name of the game rather than WEEDING PEOPLE OUT in order to secure a powerful; Holy Spirit filled local church Body.
Assuming things are decent with training and character; it still doesn't necessarily indicate a SPIRITUAL gift of teaching. Perhaps a natural talent in leadership but not a supernatural understanding of how to deliver effective messages; or have a deep wisdom as well as knowledge of scripture. Since I've been told I don't have a gift of teaching; I may not know what it all entails. There is certainly wisdom of how to apply scripture to practical issues; and perhaps most importantly in a well balanced church a set of checks and balances with other elders so that a Pastor doesn't go astray. Accountability simply can't be avoided just because of a title making someone untouchable
Thanks David. A similar verse to support your thought is Eph. 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
My interpretation of " beware of dogs' and evil workers Is a metaphor. To me he is explaining the evil of man. Dogs I would imagine were wild in this time. Pack animals. Not domesticated like today. They would have hunted together to devour their prey. Like many evil humans.
I did not mean any disrespect about the orthodox teaching, and it winds up I did the opposite to what I intended. I read your posts and I knew My understanding on this subject is different from what I have read of your posts. I knew we would not agree, I did not want to do what it seems like I have done.
I'm sure you would not want anyone killed. I was referring to what was done in the past. I did not mean to imply you would say one is not saved but I have been told that before.
I believe in the KJV it is the only bible I read, and I believe it is the most accurate translation, but like anything it is not perfect and going back to the original text and language helps understanding, that's my opinion which is also not perfect. The Question on the word Godhead was an honest question, I'm sure there is a reason for this translation, but I do not know it. It just stans out.
Again, GiGi I have all the respect for you and the good you do on this site, and I did not mean to cause you any hard feelings.
Hellow Jesse. Sorry for my delayed answer but it seems there are a lot to talk about and since I was too busy during the week, here I am now.
a. Baptism in water. My belief is that although it is a symbolism it is still a requirement/condition for salvation. The verse in Mark 16:16 does not allow for any other interpretation that it what it reads. For one to be saved there is series of events that must take place. Some of them done by man, some of them done by God.
GOD REVEALS HIMSELF- man believes-GOD'S WORD CAUSES REPENTANCE-man repents and wants to change-GOD GIVES NEW BIRTH-man gets baptised in water-GOD GIVES SALVATION (SALVATION COMPLETED)
If verses like Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 didn't exist then it would be OK to consider bapt. in water as not essential. but they do exist, and personally I think.they are crystal clear.
Question. Even if one considers baptism not necessary, isn't it still a commandment of God. For how long can someone live his christian life ignoring that commandment, being in a continuous disobedience, being, that is, in a sin?
b. John's baptism. That baptism was not only baptism of repentance but it was for the remission of sins. It is clear in Luke 3:3. I don't say it, Luke does, inspired by God, isn't it so? So you ask, since Jesus had not been sacrifised yet how sins were erased by God? The same way that God overlooked sins done by God's people in the Old testament time. And since Jesus was to come later on, God's people that died went to Abraham's place in Hades, later after ressurection they were transfered in Heaven.
So there was a somehow preliminary remission of sins. And Jews in Jesus' time that later believed in Jesus had to go through new birth and the christian baptism later on.
But what is important is that for the Jews to be forgiven had to go through repentance AND baptism, not just repentance, thus revealing how important baptism was. Similarly in christian baptism one has to go through both new birth and baptism
As far as that spiritual cleansing I wrote in my post, please consider it unsuccessful, I meant forgiveness of sins.
c. Well about those verses that according to me are about water baptism. I want to start with, that In my belief new birth and baptism in Spirit are separate events. One may be born again by the Spirit but still hasn't got the Spirit dwell in him. But this could be another important topic of discussion later on, if you wish so.
I do understand what you are saying but still I understand those verses in a different way than you
Verses 1-3
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Verses 12-14
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
These verses make me believe that what Paul talks about is not about sanctification but a consideration of a new life.
What, in my opinion, Paul says is that since we died, got buried and were raised up in new life, like Jesus was crucified, was buried and was ressurected from dead, then lets not keep sinning (on purpose) thinking that we have now Christ's Blood, so no problem doing a sin, we will ask for forgiveness later on so God is compelled to forgive us. He uses water baptism as a paralellism to Jesus' life to make christians understand that we walk a new life now, the old sinful life is gone for good, we must think ourselves dead for sin, not even think about sinning, there is something new ahead of us leading to eternal life.
"Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God." ( Matthew 5:8). Christ certainly gave us the perfect example; of mercy and compassion as His concern for the multitudes superseded His own stresses over His impending death; the unbelief of the 12 disciples; the constant threats of the Pharisees; and His jealousy for God's name. He couldn't even get a break when going to a desert place after John was beheaded to grieve with the disciples. Christ surely did all that He was called to do; without ever holding back. Part of this ministry also was deliverance; in caring for those who were in some sense in prison ( Isaiah 42:7).
Souls were ultimately; of course saved so as to secure eternal forgiveness which none of us as sinners deserved.
I; for one am sorely lacking in this gift; and am pleased to have a few brothers and sisters put that gift in display in my lifetime.
One important aspect which separates such individuals from those with a naturally kind disposition (pretty rare today anyway) is PRAYER; particularly spontaneous when such individuals become aware of the needs of others in that capacity. These individuals; also I would highly recommend to have in your prayer circles for when they are walking properly with Jesus they are likely to have an unusually successful prayer life for the simple reason that they have no barricades like many others (as myself) that tend not to have their whole hearts in it. Of course the mind also should participate in prayer. It is often said these individuals as with any others gifted in a certain area have common weaknesses. That weakness would tend to be too easily emotionally manipulated when taking their spiritual eyes off what the Lord desires them to pay attention to and focus on merely human emotions which can be deceptive and fickle. Such individuals in particular need to be grounded in the Word; as they tend often not to be as discerning as they should be.
There would seem to be two parameters here. We need to acknowledge that forgiveness of sins is still necessary after one is "Born Again" as long as we remain in our old bodies; with the potential for corrupted behaviors if we are not subject to Him in putting these old works to death. Since there are verses about sitting down before your brother before taking your gift before the altar and forgiving "seventy times seven" we certainly can bear the scars as long as we are in these mortal bodies because of the result of our sins. It was grace that allowed David to be forgiven of adultery and deliberately putting Uriah the Hittite in a position to be killed hence setting him up. Both sins according to the law were worthy of death; the Prophet told David that he would not die (grace); however he was to lose his child by Bathsheeba. This grief would not last forever; as David foresaw that he would go to see his child; not vice versa implying after his death. Consequences in Corinthians also show how communion unworthily taken can result in early death.
This begs the question as to whether anything can be forgiven for the unregenerate. On a surface level actions can be forgiven; at least among men. The comment to the Pharisee about those who are forgiven much love much ( Luke 7:36 and continuing into next chapter) shows that the heart of stone ( Ezekiel 11:19) was not converted in his case to one of flesh. All we can do as sinners is try to avoid the consequences of largely external actions. The heart where all the thoughts of evil or bad fruit come from ( Matthew 15:19) must be transformed so that we can understand we have offended a Holy God whenever we transgress against those made in the image of God (in reality in the image of man since Adam). All mankind should be treated with dignity as an eternal soul; even in a fallen state.
In short; we cannot lose our salvation but until glorification sin remains. We should mend things fast ( Prov. 18:19!)
I was reading Jeremiah ch 1 , 2, 3, yes it's very applicable to today .
We all must see it Gods way to understand, thank God for the Bible , the OT was written that we might learn by others examples, to do right etc. and avoid the consequences. It also helps us understand our present spiritual environment. God is very merciful, yet he will not pardon sin and refusal to repent . It breaks Gods heart more than any one else to see a sinful people, and that refuse to change ( for their own good ) .
That's the deception they think God will not judge them for their sins .
It takes way more ENERGY to maintain unforgiveness.
Forgive, in Jesus Name. Forbid Satan to keep stirring the ashes.
If that person refuses to drop the issue; that may be a friend you need to let go. Forgive. Take their name out of your contact list.
If 2 Christians "go to law" with each other, both of them are being heard in the Court of Heaven.
Our lives are harder when we don't read the Bible that often. We have great times together in here sorting through various scriptures that help explain things better. It's fun.
Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit all exhibit the uniqueness attributable only to God, even though each is somehow spoken of as separate from God. God is Triune and therefore difficult for humans to understand. Humans also have divisions that are not easily understandable, although not separate entities like the Trinity of God. We have spirits, souls, and bodies, and they 3 are one, as we see in 1 John 5:
1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Another reference to the divisions in men is found in Hebrews 4:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Another example can be gleaned from Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
God created man on the sixth day with two basic purposes by which he would fulfill his primary purpose to glorify God as a bearer of the Divine Image: working and multiplying. Perhaps multiplying could be left off in the New Testament Age based on Paul's teaching concerning singleness ( 1 Cor 7:7), and based on the fact that there seems to be no reproduction in eternity ( Mt 22:30). But working will be a part of our eternal existence. It is what we were made for, not only in this life but also in the next.
Each man and woman has been given a deposit of talent, energy, and resources. God will return and demand an account for our usage. Furthermore, he has promised that throughout our lives we are to live by the principle of stewardship and faithfulness, and we will be added increase as we prove capable. To refuse to work is an affront to the Creator and should not be rewarded or tolerated in the church.
The Gospel, unlike the Old Covenant, is not about rules, per se. It is about the grace of God that transforms a heart into a lover of God and his Kingdom and righteousness. But the apostles did sometimes give "rules" when necessary, and only those which accorded with grace and the Gospel. In this case, the problem of laziness was so prevalent, it had to be addressed as a rule.
There are certainly instances when a Christian is unable to work, whether because of a depressed economy, or a disability. But it is often the case that what is called inability is really an excuse for unwillingness. At nearly all costs, a human, an image-bearer of God, should make themselves useful and add value to their society.
Streetpreacher
God bless you all in Jesus holy name, i love you in Christ.
Remember and forgive all ppl their sins. Then we know that we are also forgiven by God. Luke 11:1-13
The dispute doesn't exist with those precious verses. It exists when some believe that Jesus had no existence before He became a Man. Scriptures have been provided by several of us, to reveal this pre-incarnate Jesus - unfortunately, those Scriptures have been either been avoided, misconstrued or altered in meaning/application to reflect their belief. Personally, I have given those Scriptures several times, but on maybe one or two occasions over these years, none has ever come back to me with a desire to expound them further. So maybe I will try with you brother since you appear quite keen.
Just one verse: how do you understand John 17:5? "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What is Jesus saying in His prayer to His Father? Thank you.
So it is also with the Kingdom of God. NOTHING IS Difficult.
If everything is in order with Apostles, Prophets, Miracles, Casting out evil spirits also further allows that one personally does not like. May have such a task in God's gifts. Would everyone have benefited from it.
Many leaders are afraid to let go of the Free Spirit, because then they themselves end up in the shadow of what is central. Because they are fighting a war with themselves.
LET THE SPIRIT RULE.
It is Jesus who must be central!
Put away the flesh and let the spirit lead.
Begin with praise and prayer.
Not the next meeting, for example. No one is perfect and it doesn't help anyone to think for themselves. As a rule, it turns out to be the opposite of what one thinks. And ALL who are to be leaders Must be a man and a woman. There we have the full Image of God.
If a man leads = for men.
If a woman leads = for women.
Unless man and woman stand together in leading. Will there be divisions in the flesh of Jesus. Because a congregation should not have a party for either men or women, it should serve them both.
I would like to point out that if the congregation does not consider a person to be neither a teacher nor a prophet. Then they make a big mistake in being biased and carnal. In such a congregation i would not have been standing. Because we all know what kind of gifts/presents we have received! And if the congregation does not let the gifts flow in the meetings, they will never see them either, and then it is easy to say that you do not have the gift you want to work in. Then the eye itself is sick. And needed and healed.
God bless u and yours in Jesus name, love u much in Christ. Luke 19:41-44
Revelation 3:14: "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." The Greek for 'beginning' is 'arche', as we add that prefix to the words such as 'arch-enemy, arch-bishop, arch-rival. It certainly has the primary meaning of a 'beginning or first in line', but it clearly denotes 'one who holds the primary highest position/control over others'. That being the case, if Jesus first appeared as the creation by God in the womb of Mary, it could never be said that He was the beginning/first in line to all of God's Creation, which happened several millennia prior. But Jesus was there because He was involved in the creative Work ( John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2).
Colossians 1:15: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." I understand that 'firstborn' indicated here, refers to the 'rights & privileges' of the firstborn child (e.g. 2 Chronicles 21:3). All God's creation have received His Love & Care, but at the birth of His Son into humanity, Jesus, as the Son, was the first(born) to gain/inherit His Father's full estate, as well as enjoying "the fullness of God in Himself" ( Colossians 1:19). But the full riches of God to humanity could only be realized by those placing their trust in the Forerunner & Shepherd of their faith, Jesus Christ.
John 17:5: "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What was His Glory? We can assume all of God's Glory, for He is the Word of/from God, but even if that wasn't the case, Jesus, as the Word of God, had that Glory even before creation of the worlds.
You stated, "I honor the Son for what He gave up." If Jesus (the Word) didn't exist from eternity within the Person of God, & was only created from the womb of Mary, I wonder what He had to give up? Your responses have been very interesting.
I think your doctrine of not believing in Jesus's divinity requires a few hoops to jump through:
1. Not take John 1:1 literally that says Jesus (Word) is God
2. Ignore that God is plural 'we' and 'us' in Genesis
3. Assume that Jesus's behavior as a temporary man with limited power automatically means that that is how He normally is
4. Misinterpret the word "begotten"
5. Ignore the words Godhead and claim its a bad translation
6. Ignore that Jesus's name Immanuel means 'God with us'
7. Ignore 1 John 5:7-8 that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one, and try to dilute the word 'one' to make it seem insignificant.
8. Ignore John 1:3 that Jesus has always been and made everything and claim that Jesus was created later
9. Ignore that Jesus is the same I AM in the NT as the I AM in the OT
10. Ignore that Jesus is the same First/Last, Beginning/End in the NT as the same from God in the OT.
There's much more, but I'll stop at 10. I'm also not 100% sure you even read my last 2 replies so I don't want to spent energy on something you may not even read. There's an enormous about of verses supporting that Jesus is God and nothing clearly saying the opposite. For example if you found a verse that says 'Jesus is NOT God', then you would then only begin to your cause to counter the Bible already saying Jesus IS God in John 1:1, but we don't even have that.
With all the scriptural evidence here, is it possible you have any vested interest to prove that Jesus isn't God for another reason? If you read enough verses supporting that Jesus IS God, is that something you might reconsider someday or do you feel content with your current belief?
Do you believe Jesus is truly Lord like it says in Romans 10:9?
God bless.
In Philippians 3:2, the term dogs in this text is actually making reference to a religious phrase. The Gentiles were considered dogs by the Jews.
There are two words in the New Testament that have to do with a dog. KUNARION is a household pet. And then we have a KUON. A KUON is a wild scavenger. And that's the animal used here.
Gentiles were called KUON'S, wild scavengers, impure, and grungy. So it was an insult to call somebody a KUON.
And so he's using the word KUON. He says beware of the dogs. That's the false teachers that come in.
Beware of evil workers, beware of the concision, which literally means mutilation.
PERITOME, to cut around, is the Greek word for circumcision. KATATOME, to cut off, is the word for mutilation. And Paul is using the exaggerated mind picture for us to say that people that go around cutting themselves in any way, shape, or form in order to better themselves spiritually, that's all they are doing is mutilating themselves.
Beware of those false teachers that say that you can come in and receive Christ, but you have to be circumcised. Beware of the evil workers. Beware of the dogs.
Your first point about "In the beginning" is the 2nd time you brought that up and I already responded to it- did you see it? Just scroll up. Not only that, GiGi also responded to you on that exact point too, but you still brought that false assumption up as 'evidence' against Jesus being God even after it was explained?
The next couple paragraphs seems hard to follow on how this relates to my previous comment.
The end of your comment I see you did respond not to the "I AM" question but to the "First/Last, Beginning/End" part. I see you are somehow viewing this as confirmation that Jesus has limits. This is strange to me, because this exact phrase means he does NOT have limits, that He spans all existence. What was significant about this is God in the Old Testament says this AND Jesus says it in the New Testament. And "I AM" was spoken by God in the Old Testament AND by Jesus in the New Testament. Do you understand the significance of this?
Finally, I can tell that your use of the word "begotten" is not the real meaning of that word. That word means "only". Jesus is God the Father's *only* son. See the Greek word here: Link
Some have misinterpreted this word, hopefully not intentionally, to make it seem as though Jesus was "created." But not only does that word not mean that, but the Bible already debunked this in advance, as if they even predicted people might one say start saying stuff like this.
John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
This means all things were made by Jesus and without Jesus, nothing else was made. In verses 1-2 before it, it clearly says Jesus was always there, and so was God the Father. Both of them together. This debunks the idea that God the Father created Jesus.
There is a mountain of Bible verses saying Jesus is God and not one that says the opposite. Even Jesus's name Immanuel is "God with us."
In the sense that one can initiate evangelism; and establish church congregations throughout an entire new region we could say that Apostles still exist today among men. Scripture would necessitate that women are called to other roles; however and obviously no Apostle today has physically been present with Christ as it was in the early church.
These sort of callings would also get into the type of administration giftings tied in with say a local church Pastor. It differs; however as to a more of an itinerant mentality; where the churches themselves have pastors groomed (much like Paul did with Timothy) before moving on to another local church and eventually perhaps to a whole other region to do the same thing.
It seems somehow to be similar to the roles that many organizations perform today; such as the Southern Baptist Convention.
Unfortunately; with all the dangerous teachings that those associated with these large organizations seem to dance around at best or compromise to their level at worst are always of concern. There are enough problems with the pagan cultures in an area and influence of "damnable heresies" trying to come in without having to concern ourselves with playing politics to keep donations coming in. So there may be a place for an Apostle today. Again; we must be cautious and remember even among Paul and Peter open rebuke was necessary to resolve issues. There also needs to be as Paul had a resolute determination through the Spirit and a clear calling no matter what the cost. The same issues are going on today in churches as in Paul's time; as well as internationally like in the USA. Many fall away for one reason or another; or are found particularly overseas to be tempted to want to have the Prosperity Gospel message promises. It seems from writings I have seen from the mid 20th century for instance that God will use signs and wonders more with the new fields for harvest; and seems to reach many Muslims that way today.
There is something to be said for those God has set in authority; when it is truly being performed according to the way Christ would have the church run. These would give the elder/pastor (essentially the same) as those who would in some degree be in charge; with the rest of us called to submit. Again; everyone needs to be accountable in a church with proper procedures for sin that can be proven with those in leadership positions as well as laypersons.
As I've stated in my earlier post; with those gifted in mercy; those with certain gifts tend to have weaknesses. Some of these things may be because of cultural things. Nonetheless; there is often a tendency to at best ignore those with other giftings that can work with the elders to be; for instance small group leaders in a teaching role. There also tends to be a disinterest in those who may have a pertinent word of wisdom or has discernment about certain individuals that needs to be expressed. There seems in general to be a great disfunction in churches today as how we all are to edify one another by using different gifts so we have a very misshapen body so to speak.
There can also be extremes; whether overly legalistic or "hypergrace"; simply boring delivery; too much emotional drama; etc.
Often in Reformed circles; sadly there can be a sort of paralysis if things aren't done exactly according to protocol; so that if a Pastor is sick things can't go on with someone else. TRUST is something sorely lacking in these situations; it is never wise when there are NO elders because a dictatorship type mentality can arise. Also; no servant is greater than His master; and we are never to assume that we are more important than say the janitor in a church or the kids; or single women. We have to be open to learning from others and sometimes having occasions when a crisis needs to break the Sunday routine to pray for others; for example. Overall; the church should be run decently and in order.
First; let me start off with what it is NOT. Teaching is not the result merely of degrees; training; status; or pedigree. Nor is it merely someone who has the bold temperament to preach to a crowd; an organized writer; or someone who can give an emotional or motivational delivery. As with anything else in the ministry; it is certainly unwise if one who wishes to be an elder or pastor doesn't have sufficient training and in fact a sober; mature individual with his family life well under control is scripturally mandated.
Unfortunately; the temptation to fall into pride is something that can affect especially young pastors as one who I had a few years back was willing to admit that he struggled with. Sadly as well today; many seminaries have gotten so off the trail of correct doctrine so they may have to act like Jesus did; adhering to the teachings of the Pharisees but not to their hypocritical lives and vain traditions of men. Funding always can get in the way; as money often does as a vice when churches are dependent on monies until a church becomes "official". The biggest issue may be how quantity of parishioners seems to be the name of the game rather than WEEDING PEOPLE OUT in order to secure a powerful; Holy Spirit filled local church Body.
Assuming things are decent with training and character; it still doesn't necessarily indicate a SPIRITUAL gift of teaching. Perhaps a natural talent in leadership but not a supernatural understanding of how to deliver effective messages; or have a deep wisdom as well as knowledge of scripture. Since I've been told I don't have a gift of teaching; I may not know what it all entails. There is certainly wisdom of how to apply scripture to practical issues; and perhaps most importantly in a well balanced church a set of checks and balances with other elders so that a Pastor doesn't go astray. Accountability simply can't be avoided just because of a title making someone untouchable
I am not offended at all by what you wrote to me in your post. I am not that over sensitive. So, not need to apologize. Your good!
Have a good evening.
That's my take on it.
I did not mean any disrespect about the orthodox teaching, and it winds up I did the opposite to what I intended. I read your posts and I knew My understanding on this subject is different from what I have read of your posts. I knew we would not agree, I did not want to do what it seems like I have done.
I'm sure you would not want anyone killed. I was referring to what was done in the past. I did not mean to imply you would say one is not saved but I have been told that before.
I believe in the KJV it is the only bible I read, and I believe it is the most accurate translation, but like anything it is not perfect and going back to the original text and language helps understanding, that's my opinion which is also not perfect. The Question on the word Godhead was an honest question, I'm sure there is a reason for this translation, but I do not know it. It just stans out.
Again, GiGi I have all the respect for you and the good you do on this site, and I did not mean to cause you any hard feelings.
God bless,
RLW
Hellow Jesse. Sorry for my delayed answer but it seems there are a lot to talk about and since I was too busy during the week, here I am now.
a. Baptism in water. My belief is that although it is a symbolism it is still a requirement/condition for salvation. The verse in Mark 16:16 does not allow for any other interpretation that it what it reads. For one to be saved there is series of events that must take place. Some of them done by man, some of them done by God.
GOD REVEALS HIMSELF- man believes-GOD'S WORD CAUSES REPENTANCE-man repents and wants to change-GOD GIVES NEW BIRTH-man gets baptised in water-GOD GIVES SALVATION (SALVATION COMPLETED)
If verses like Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 didn't exist then it would be OK to consider bapt. in water as not essential. but they do exist, and personally I think.they are crystal clear.
Question. Even if one considers baptism not necessary, isn't it still a commandment of God. For how long can someone live his christian life ignoring that commandment, being in a continuous disobedience, being, that is, in a sin?
b. John's baptism. That baptism was not only baptism of repentance but it was for the remission of sins. It is clear in Luke 3:3. I don't say it, Luke does, inspired by God, isn't it so? So you ask, since Jesus had not been sacrifised yet how sins were erased by God? The same way that God overlooked sins done by God's people in the Old testament time. And since Jesus was to come later on, God's people that died went to Abraham's place in Hades, later after ressurection they were transfered in Heaven.
So there was a somehow preliminary remission of sins. And Jews in Jesus' time that later believed in Jesus had to go through new birth and the christian baptism later on.
But what is important is that for the Jews to be forgiven had to go through repentance AND baptism, not just repentance, thus revealing how important baptism was. Similarly in christian baptism one has to go through both new birth and baptism
Jesse
As far as that spiritual cleansing I wrote in my post, please consider it unsuccessful, I meant forgiveness of sins.
c. Well about those verses that according to me are about water baptism. I want to start with, that In my belief new birth and baptism in Spirit are separate events. One may be born again by the Spirit but still hasn't got the Spirit dwell in him. But this could be another important topic of discussion later on, if you wish so.
I do understand what you are saying but still I understand those verses in a different way than you
Verses 1-3
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Verses 12-14
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
These verses make me believe that what Paul talks about is not about sanctification but a consideration of a new life.
What, in my opinion, Paul says is that since we died, got buried and were raised up in new life, like Jesus was crucified, was buried and was ressurected from dead, then lets not keep sinning (on purpose) thinking that we have now Christ's Blood, so no problem doing a sin, we will ask for forgiveness later on so God is compelled to forgive us. He uses water baptism as a paralellism to Jesus' life to make christians understand that we walk a new life now, the old sinful life is gone for good, we must think ourselves dead for sin, not even think about sinning, there is something new ahead of us leading to eternal life.
Have a blessed w/e.
"Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God." ( Matthew 5:8). Christ certainly gave us the perfect example; of mercy and compassion as His concern for the multitudes superseded His own stresses over His impending death; the unbelief of the 12 disciples; the constant threats of the Pharisees; and His jealousy for God's name. He couldn't even get a break when going to a desert place after John was beheaded to grieve with the disciples. Christ surely did all that He was called to do; without ever holding back. Part of this ministry also was deliverance; in caring for those who were in some sense in prison ( Isaiah 42:7).
Souls were ultimately; of course saved so as to secure eternal forgiveness which none of us as sinners deserved.
I; for one am sorely lacking in this gift; and am pleased to have a few brothers and sisters put that gift in display in my lifetime.
One important aspect which separates such individuals from those with a naturally kind disposition (pretty rare today anyway) is PRAYER; particularly spontaneous when such individuals become aware of the needs of others in that capacity. These individuals; also I would highly recommend to have in your prayer circles for when they are walking properly with Jesus they are likely to have an unusually successful prayer life for the simple reason that they have no barricades like many others (as myself) that tend not to have their whole hearts in it. Of course the mind also should participate in prayer. It is often said these individuals as with any others gifted in a certain area have common weaknesses. That weakness would tend to be too easily emotionally manipulated when taking their spiritual eyes off what the Lord desires them to pay attention to and focus on merely human emotions which can be deceptive and fickle. Such individuals in particular need to be grounded in the Word; as they tend often not to be as discerning as they should be.
This begs the question as to whether anything can be forgiven for the unregenerate. On a surface level actions can be forgiven; at least among men. The comment to the Pharisee about those who are forgiven much love much ( Luke 7:36 and continuing into next chapter) shows that the heart of stone ( Ezekiel 11:19) was not converted in his case to one of flesh. All we can do as sinners is try to avoid the consequences of largely external actions. The heart where all the thoughts of evil or bad fruit come from ( Matthew 15:19) must be transformed so that we can understand we have offended a Holy God whenever we transgress against those made in the image of God (in reality in the image of man since Adam). All mankind should be treated with dignity as an eternal soul; even in a fallen state.
In short; we cannot lose our salvation but until glorification sin remains. We should mend things fast ( Prov. 18:19!)
We all must see it Gods way to understand, thank God for the Bible , the OT was written that we might learn by others examples, to do right etc. and avoid the consequences. It also helps us understand our present spiritual environment. God is very merciful, yet he will not pardon sin and refusal to repent . It breaks Gods heart more than any one else to see a sinful people, and that refuse to change ( for their own good ) .
That's the deception they think God will not judge them for their sins .
I would like you to re-explain your inquiry so I can better understand what you are asking about the Baptist church.