Bible Discussion PAGE 52


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  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Matthew 24:29
    Jesse, first of all, let me apologize for the 'hello'. I don't see where it is, but if it showed in the post you saw, it was totally unintentional. My intent is to have a proper discussion of the matter, not berate or belittle anyone. Capitalization is to highlight for emphasis.

    First of all, there is no distinction drawn whatsoever in the OT or New, between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Jesus never mentions it. And in fact, the only time He speaks of it is in Matt24, Mk13 and Lk21. In 2Thess2, Paul reiterates what Christ said.

    So where does the distinction between the 2nd Coming and the Rapture come from? Belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture comes from the inference drawn from Revelation 1-3. There is no actual statement referred to, other than that the word Church is not used after Chapter 3. Somehow, that is taken to mean the Church disappears, although nothing actually suggests such a thing. The conclusion drawn that Believers are Raptured, from absence of a mention of the Church again, is fallacious. No such conclusion is warranted.

    However, what is rarely mentioned is there will be Believers, consequently a thriving Church, during the last 3 years of the Great Tribulation. Compare Rev11:4-12 and 1:20. See also Rev13:10, "Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints." 14:10-12, "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus." 6:9, 12:11, 17, 20:4. Revelation 7:14, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

    Another specious argument is that Saints refers to Jews, not Christians. But that is debunked by Philemon 1:5, Rev17:6, "I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the witnesses for Jesus."

    The fact remains that nothing anywhere refers to a PreTrib Rapture. The language and images for the Rapture are the same in Matt, These, Rev and Daniel 7-12 on Restrainer.
  • Bob Hilt - in Reply on Matthew 24:29
    WHEN IS THE RAPTURE / RESURRECTION?

    In Revelation 20:4-6 the last book of the Bible there are only 2 more FUTURE Resurrections (Raptures) spoken of: after the 2 witnesses appear

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. rapture

    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the SECOND DEATH hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    In the above scriptures, these are the Martyrs. John said "this is the first resurrection." John didn't say this is the "second phase of the first resurrection," as pre-tribbers claim.

    If this is the FIRST resurrection, can there be a resurrection before this one? Of course not, unless you want to ADD to the bible

    The First Resurrection is of the dead in Christ and the Second is after 1000 years. Paul wrote that the Dead in Christ MUST rise FIRST, THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    16 ...and the dead in Christ shall RISE FIRST

    17 THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...

    In Revelation 20:4-5, John sees the souls of Saints who were BEHEADED for refusing the Mark of the Beast during the Great Tribulation. John writes that they will rise and reign with Christ for 1000 years and that this is the FIRST RESURRECTION!

    the beheaded rise in the FIRST resurrection and Paul said those who are alive and remain are not caught up until AFTER the dead in Christ are resurrected, then this comes at the end of the tribulation.
  • Chris - in Reply on Acts 2:4
    Albert, further to what Bob has shared: I believe there is confusion on the meaning of the word 'tongue'. Sadly, it is often interpreted as some special uttering that may or may not be known to us. Hence, as some who have this 'gift' have said to me, that a 'tongue' could be an earthly language or a heavenly language. But is this what the Scripture, indeed all of Scripture on this subject implies?

    In such situations, I wish I could altogether remove the word, 'tongue', & just insert 'unknown or unlearned language' as it clearly implies in Scripture, i.e. a language in existence on Earth, but which has not been learned by the utterer. When this gift came upon men showing the arrival & indwelling of the Holy Spirit in people, they always spoke in a language that they had not learned but it was a language that was known by someone else. Thus, the 'tongue' served absolutely no purpose unless it was for the benefit of another (e.g. as evidence to the unsaved & to hear God's message to them, or God's Word to believers, if only it came with interpretation).

    And to those dear, well meaning believers so 'gifted', also suggested to me, a non-gifted 'tongue' believer, that if no 'tongue' came out of me, then I should just 'start babbling something to start the process going'! Of course, an extreme, perverted understanding of the Gift, but it showed to me, as a new Christian, the lengths they would go to give such importance to this least of all gifts. The only occasion of when this 'gift' is used other than what I've indicated here, is when there is none to interpret it, that it is used not publicly, but in his/her prayer to God & be edified through it (1 Corinthians 14:28).
  • David k Gill on Revelation 14
    What the bible says about the trinity
  • Bob Hilt - in Reply on Daniel 9:1
    Sackcloth and ashes is extreme mourning and / or repentance. sackcloth was rough uncomfortable for clothing. Sitting in ashes was dirty and I suppose symbolic of being dirty and burn out? It is humility before the Lord

    2 Samuel 3:31 And David said to Joab, and to all the people that were with him, Rend your clothes, and gird you with sackcloth, and mourn before Abner. And king David himself followed the bier.

    Genesis 37:34 And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days.

    Nehemiah 9:1 Now in the twenty and fourth day of this month the children of Israel were assembled with fasting, and with sackclothes, and earth upon them.

    Psalms 35:13 But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom.

    Daniel 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Genesis 10
    There is a lot to digest here, Chris. You bring up very good points. To your point b. Paul says "evil company corrupts good morals." Most people that engage in criminal activity or become addicted to something, experience a draw or deterioration over time. The devil, for example, did not corrupt instantly. Ezk28 tells us it became noticeable. He didn't wake up one day and say to himself, "Lucifer, today I become the devil." Even your analogy of dye in the glass requires a process. First it has to filter through the water. Then it becomes noticeable as the water changes color. God told the Israelites that although they wanted things done quickly, He had a Plan and it was in the works. Who said, "You have need of patience...". But the most obvious example of the process is Christ's appearance at the appointed time.

    The Genesis story of the Garden is not complete. It is simplistic to believe Eve ate a fruit and she was instantly poisoned. There is more to the story. See Songs 2. She sat by the shade of the Tree. She contemplated its fruit. She was attracted to its glitter. And so was Adam. They were created in innocence. They were coaxed to become involved with the devil. God told them He did not want them to have anything to do with that Tree. By the way, what kind of tree was it? Were there any others like it? Or was it one of a kind? What does the Bible say? There were two Trees in the Garden. WHO were they? One bite and Eve became instantly aware of the difference between good and evil? Back to Paul, evil company...

    Sorry, the quote on those that didn't sin same as Adam is found in Romans 5:13-15. I hope I am doing this reading justice. What does it mean?

    Your point c. God created to eradicate corruption. That's clear from Daniel 9:24 and others. If God created with a Plan and a Purpose, then sin was a consequence of creation. God created with the knowledge and understanding corruption would materialize with creation. No creation, no corruption.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Genesis 10
    Chris, I left off in point #3.

    The purpose of creation from the very beginning, was Christ. God didn't create us so we could enjoy Him and have a wonderful world to live in, although we can enjoy that and are promised that as Believers. The fact is, the world is rotten and we are putrid.

    People argue it is the fault of Free Will. But that is also a stretch. The Bible never says anything to that effect. We might have been created with the ability to choose, but our poor choices are the result of a corrupted nature. A perfect nature wouldn't sin. God didn't put Satan in the middle of the Garden to adorn it. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. The Angels rebelled. Men disobeyed. Ephesians 4:22, Mark 7:21, Romans 1:21, Jer17:5.

    A look at Scripture shows Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, death, to take away pain, suffering and establish eternal perfection (Daniel 9:24, 1Cor15:50). In Romans 8-10 we're told God placed us and all creation, to include Angels, in a corruptible creation, so He could fix the problem of corruption. See 1John 3:8, Hebrews 9:26, Ephesians 1:11, 3:11. God's Will and Purpose cannot be thwarted.

    Isaiah 46:10 - I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.' 48:7 - They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.' 46:11 -I declare the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.' I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it.

    My point is God created with a Plan, a Purpose. He did not create knowing His creation was going to fail and He would have to rescue it. He created specifically to destroy so much as the potential for corruption (Hebrews 2:14).
  • Jesse - in Reply on Matthew 24:29
    Carlos,

    First I want to address the areas you place in all caps because right away those are the areas that catch my attention. Either you are trying to emphasize your point, or you are trying to show me something you think I do not understand. First, you say He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. I believe that's accurate. And then you say Christ won't come until AFTER the Abomination exalts himself above God in the Temple. I agree with that. And then you say after that Great Tribulation, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL HE APPEAR. Again, I agree. And you also say there is only ONE Second Coming. I'm fully aware of that. And then finally you say PREPARE! Hello. What is the hello? Would that be the same as saying Duh?

    We both agree that there is one second coming of Christ. And we both agree that it will be after the 7 year Tribulation period. What we disagree on is the time of the rapture of the church. I think our understanding of what takes place at His second coming differs. What I am gathering from you is that you see us being raptured at His second coming. Would that be a safe assumption on my part?

    I see His second coming and the rapture of the church as being two separate events. When He comes for the church at the rapture, we meet Him in the air. He does not step down onto the earth at that time. At His second coming, after the 7 year Tribulation, that is when He steps foot on the earth. Plus, at His second coming, we come back with Him. There is no rapture at His second coming.

    The Great Tribulation, last 3-1/2 years, is going to be a time of such wrath upon this earth like we have never seen before. We can't even begin to imagine how horrible a time it's going to be. During the time of God's wrath being poured out, there is no mention of the church being on the earth, only ungodly unbelievers.



    I commend you for doing a careful study of the scripture. That's what we are all supposed to do, right?
  • Mary wilson - in Reply on Psalms 17
    We must keep our eyes on the prize. and fear not. God is always with us through troubling times.
  • Michael Reidy - in Reply on 1 Corinthians 14:34
    God is clear about the topic. And so I am also clear. If I have said something that offends you please be clear.
  • Glen Christian on 2 Chronicles 30
    1 Timothy 2:12-14

    12
    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression

    Paul is saying this because The woman was the first to be deceived. Seams pretty straight to me.

    God Bless

    Much Love

    Glen
  • Winifred on Daniel 9:1
    Q

    what does it means when the bible say sackcloth and ashes?
  • Curtis - in Reply on Revelation 2:10
    I believe the way that we behave depends on whether or not we are of this world.
  • Bob Hilt - in Reply on Acts 2:4
    The Bible speaks on tongues 1 Corinthians 12:28 - And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. (Tongues notice the last least gift.)

    1 Corinthians 12:29 - Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

    1 Cor 12:30 - Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

    1 Cor 12:31 - But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

    1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues. for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues.

    1 Corinthians Chapter 14: 26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue,

    hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

    27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

    28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

    ....But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church....

    not one Pentecostal church I have ever been to have ever followed this in scripture.

    tongues is the least important gift. no interpreter = keep silent.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Genesis 10
    Chris, I like these conversations because they make us think and search the Scriptures. Thanks for your comments. Your perspective is what the modern church has taught for the last few Centuries.

    You say, "we were created [to] enjoy a perfect relationship with the Godhead & enjoying a perfect world to live in." And of course, that is what we are taught. That is our doctrine. But there is a greater truth we miss.

    First of all, All things were created FOR Christ Colossians 1:16. What does that little tiny word mean? Did God create us for Us or FOR Christ? What does it mean that we were created for God's Pleasure? Is it so Christ could have someone to play with? Is it so Christ could have someone to help him with creation? Is it for the enjoyment of Christ? I bought a car for my son. I did that so he could go to school, work and out with his friends. Is that what FOR means here? What the Bible tells us is that all things were created FOR Christ to enter creation to accomplish God's Plan. In Hebrews 10:5 and Psalms 40, we are told we were created so Christ could have a body in the image of God. In Titus 1:2, Paul says God's Plan from before creation, from before time even began, was a Plan of Redemption in Christ. All things are done FOR Christ to overcome corruption, evil, death, pain, suffering.

    Secondly, Christ didn't enter the world in response to what Adam and Eve did. In the OT we read over and over, "I raised him up for my Purpose." Daniel says things to come are written in the Book of Truth. Revelation calls it the Book of Life. In Isaiah 44-48 God says He knows what is going to happen because He creates it then and there. The idea that God knows the future out of intuition, perception, vision or all-knowingness, because He is not restricted by time/space, is not Biblical. The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose.

    Thirdly, we are not the object of creation. Christ is. If we were, God failed. Think about that. See Daniel 9:24, Romans 8.
  • Alex on Romans 13:4
    comment by Alex about y Jesus was born. It was that he might be multiplied in our hearts via a seed resulting from his death, when a seed dies it multiplies ( our new heart and new spirit ) is th result of his death,smite the shephard and the sheep will be scattered then i will turn my hand to the little ones a baby Christ which is the H.G. AS THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT OUR NEW INNERMAN has to be born in us. That was the great Promise in the beginning I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven speaking of abrahams' heavenly seed Christ Jesus. Thats y th woman ( humanity ) is giving birth simply b/c of his death, the only way we can see him is by his death, he said unless a seed dies it abides alone ( just 1 christ ) but if it dies it will bring forth much fruit (many Christ as the stars of heaven ) That was the great Promise,The fruit is his offspring the H.G. an Isrsel of God ,the multiplication of very God in humanity via his seed sown in us sinners. Being bornagain of an incorruptible seed even by the Word of God but there wd have been no seed if he had not died,when a seed dies it multiplies that all the world might get a seed an incorruptible seed that is gonna destroy our old adamic nature thus destroying satans head mans adamic nature that is in rank with satans head.outta of the hearts of man proceeds all manner of evil, Thats y he refers to the H.G as the PROMISE,THE H.G is the multiplication of Christ that results from his seed th word th new covenant in our hearts thus a spritual pregnancy resulting in a Child, she brought forth a man child that is gonna rule all nations. The Child is the h.g. that is gonna rule all nations as Jesus said the spirit of truth is gona reprove the world of sin and righteous and judgement which answers to the kingdom of GOD coming from with in US. The reason issac was born was that abraham might be multiplied,The reason Jesus was born was that God might be multiplied in US sinners remember the PROMISE GB
  • Carlos Ramirez Trevino - in Reply on Matthew 24:29
    THANK YOU. But keep in mind that I am not an expert on Stars and their use in the Bible. However, the same applies to Trees, Grass, Water and many other things.
  • Lois Obiyo on Psalms 121
    One of my favorite psalms, very comforting and assuring. Praise the Lord.
  • Albert on Acts 2:4
    This same outpouring of the HolyGhost is for us day. We can be filled with HolyGhost by the evidence of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.
  • Mishael - in Reply on Isaiah 10:18
    WattRudy: it's a blessing to find someone else who studies the small things. I was fascinated with:

    Proverbs 6:6-8 And. Proverbs 30:24-27

    It kinda shows you that nothing escapes God's interest in His creation.
  • Muhammad is in the Bible! This verse is talking about him, along with many, many, many other false prophets!
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO - in Reply on Matthew 24:29
    Jesse, I see your point. However, when I say we know the time, given that Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4 that that day will not creep up on us like a thief, I mean that in Matthew 24:29, Jesus specifically says that He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days.

    He further tells us that the day of His return will not be until after the Abomination (AntiChrist) sits in the Temple in Jerusalem and declares himself above God. See Daniel 12. That abominable act doesn't happen until 3 years after the 7 years Tribulation period begins. Consequently, if Christ won't come until AFTER the Abomination exalts himself above God in the Temple, then Christ won't come at the start of the 7 years Tribulation.

    In addition, Christ adds to that that after the AntiChrist exalts himself in the Temple Holy of Holies, there will be what is known as the last 3 years of the 7 years Tribulation. He calls that the Great Tribulation. Throughout the discourse, Christ warns us not to be fooled when people tell us that Christ is here or there.

    Then Jesus goes on to tell us that after that Great Tribulation, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL HE APPEAR.

    There is no other place in the entire Bible where we are told when Christ will return, except this. And it is Jesus Himself telling us. This is borne out by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2, which is almost a repetition of Matthew 24.

    Unfortunately, the 100 years old teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is deceptive. I too used to think that was the way it was, because that's what I was taught. But a careful study of Scripture shows the opposite. The arguments for it fail the test of logic, reality and more significantly, Scripture. I am not criticizing. I am just pointing it out. Any study of the Rapture, as presented in 1 Thes 4, should begin with Matthew 24:29. There is only ONE Second Coming and it won't be in stages. That is why Christ immediately transitions to the Virgins of Matthew 25. PREPARE!
  • Angela on Jeremiah 2:16
    How did o the children of Noph and Tahapanes break the crown of thy head?
  • Alex on Revelation 14
    comments on Carlos's posts about Noah's flood. Carlos th flood was just an allegory of another flood coming in the spirutal realm.Isaiah says that knowledge shall cover the earth as the waters cover the seas. A spritual flood of his spirit is gonna cover the earth meaning mankind. Everything in the O.T. was just simbolic of something coming in the N.T. TH FUTURE under a new covenant.Jesus said outta of their bellies shall flow Rivers of living water but john said this water is just simbolic of his spirit ( the H.G ETC. )THE H.G was not yet given simple b/c jesus was not yet glorified this Glorification is the flood coming on all humanity. As Joel said he wd pour out his spirit on all flesh ( THE FLOOD ) God so loved the world etc.And the latter rain doctrine is also of a rain/flood coming that will flood the world,much greater then the former rain th early Church doctrine /flood. Even Paul said when that which is perfect is come that which is done in PART will be done away with. Early church doctrine was all in parts as paul said, we know in part etc. In rev. it says he will lead us to fountains of living water, water without limit a deludge a flood etc Whosoever will let him come and drink of the waters of life freely this is the 2 nd flood that is gonna destroy our carnal minds his enemy ( satan ) as his house is our body but now satans defiles this house. Outta of the hearts of man proceeds all manner of evil thus we need a new heart and a new spirit which will come via his Word ( His SPIRIT that will flood this earth) that good seed etc the seed of the kingdom etc John saw the kingdom coming via a River, a Flood ( that River of life ) Also Daniel saw the kingdom coming via a River of life . That spritual Flood that is coming in th last day.gbu
  • Nella Rodenburg on Zechariah 1
    How does one reconcile Zechariah 1:15 with the sovereignty of God over all things?
  • H - in Reply on Romans 13:4
    Who told you that?
  • Mild Bill on Psalms 5
    What we don't see enough of is "Thy Kingdom Come". The most sure future expectation(hope),is the rule

    of God on Earth,for one thousand years.It is written and will be done,as it is God's will.The great lie of

    Satan is based on this truth,that is,namely,utopia,or,the human desire to again enter Eden.Admission to

    the Kingdom is by the grace of God only.The eternal realm begins after final human failure in the Kingdom,

    as was human failure in the garden.The Savior,the Lord Jesus, is all the glory permitted,demonstrated and

    worthy of our love.A sinful self will no longer be a part of us,hard for us to imagine as we are in this world,

    yet,the fullness of forgiveness will be our experience,as it is written.
  • CARLOS RAMIREZ TREVINO on Revelation 14
    As I read some posts in this venue, I notice many use the Bible as a Book of Rules through which to control people. Many even use it to subdue church members into a submission that robs them of the liberty we have in Christ. Some leaders even use Scripture to set up little kingdoms where they are the rulers and Popes. Congregants are even told to take everything to their pastors for approval and guidance. There are church congregations that will not allow you to be a member unless you commit to a monthly or annual membership fee.

    The Bible is not a Book of Rules. It is the message of God to humanity about what He is doing, why He is doing it and how we can know The Father and The Son in a personal way. It is the Good News about how we can become Sons of God in Christ. It is the way to Freedom from the cement block of evil, sin, death and corruption wrapped around our feet. The Bible is our way to God the Father, not to another prison of restrictive rules and fearful existence.

    The Gospel of eternal salvation and abundant life in Christ allows us to step out of the dark dungeon of repressive sinful habits that made our lives miserable, into the brightness of the liberty of knowing Jesus.

    Don't let anyone try to pull you back into a dungeon of repressive religious mandates that steal the liberty of Christ from you. That doesn't mean you can sin freely, carouse, and live as if there were no rules. There are rules of social, religious and political behavior. There must be order, decency, decorum, proper behavior. Organization is essential to every life endeavor.

    But live in the liberty of Christ. Be human! Live life as a human enjoying salvation in Christ. Don't live life trying to be as impeccable as Angels.

    The Bible is about Christ and God's Purpose Driven Creation. It is about how we can know God and the liberty with which He makes us free from oppression, repression, confusion, depression, addiction, sin and takes us to eternal perfection.
  • Carl - in Reply
    Hi Cyril.

    Thank you for sharing your burdens.

    First of all, I am happy to tell you that God wants to give you salvation! If we repent of/abandon our sins and cry out to him for forgiveness, He is just longing to do that for us.

    Secondly, He is also keenly interested in our health and sleep. Just as He wants our soul and spirit to be at rest, so He also desires to give our bodies rest as well!

    God bless.
  • Albert - in Reply on 1 Timothy 3:16
    In Ephesians 6:11 it reads: "In whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. God counsel himself. The only other beings present at man's creation were angels. "Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Deuteronomy 6:4.


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