Thank you for continuing the discussion, I also tremble at His word we are just a spec compared to our God. Deuteronomy 18:15-19 This to me is fulfilled in John 1:1 the word of God in Jesus the Messiah. When Jesus was anointed the Messiah every word that Jesus said was the word of God the word of God in the flesh of His Son. Everything that was created was created by the word of God, not His Son. God said let there be, and it was.
If we read Isaiah 66:1 we cannot imagine how large God can be. He can overwhelm all of what we can imagine. In my human mind, I see His Spirit cover the earth like a dome, omnipresent, it is like an electrical grid that believers plug into, I know that may sound weird.
John 17 I will do my best to show my understanding, this is just before Jesus was going to be nailed to the cross. Verses 1-5 Jesus is praying to the Father about Himself, the Father is God, when we pray, we pray to our Father, and we relate to God as Father, through the Bible Father means God and Jesus said to His Father He is the only true God. In and through Jesus Christ we become sons and daughters of God, so we cry out Abba, Father, Galatians 4:6.
Jesus said He had finished the work the Father had given to Him and Jesus glorified His Father on earth. Jesus is now ready to face death on the cross and fulfilling the law and the prophet's, all of what Scripture had said what He would become, and Jesus was ready to take His place on the right hand of His Father, Isaiah 53:12Jeremiah 23:5-62 Samuel 7:12-13Psalm 110:4Psalm 16:10, these are just a few verses that Jesus would have known about Himself.
In Daniel 7:13-14 Daniel had a prophetic vision of Jesus's ascension and God the Father giving His Son Jesus dominion and glory overall and giving Him the kingdom. God showed Daniel this was with God in the beginning, in God's plan but did not come to fruition until Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9.
Vs 5 The plan of God, predetermined glory, Jesus knew the Scriptures. All that was to happen to Him and the glory He would receive after He suffered on the cross had already been spoken by the prophets in the past tense as though they had already happened.
As Jesus was on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24:25-26, He talks about them not believing what the prophets had written about what was to happen to Jesus. The first man to be raised from the dead in a glorified body and God placed Him on His right hand on the throne a man, not a god.
Jesus was a man who was tempted like us and fulfilled all His Father asked Him we see hundreds of prophecies Jesus fulfilled and the man Jesus did it without one sin. Only a man could undo what the first man did. God could not do that because He cannot sin or die. The law was made for man and the curse of sin was on man, not God.
In Verses 20-22, Jesus had not yet been crucified and the glory the Father had given Him Jesus has given it to us today "but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" This glory we will receive when Jesus returns and we are resurrected in our glorified bodies, we have it now, but it will not be manifest until Jesus returns.
If Jesus was a co-equal God in the three-person God, how could He be given anything He would already have it? Malachi 3:6 says God does not change so God cannot change, Numbers 23:19Isaiah 46:10Psalm 33:11Acts 17:26 The glory Jesus was asking for, He would receive when He resurrected.
The Spirit could not be given because Jesus had not been glorified (resurrected) John 7:39 Things were hidden from the disciples until Jesus was glorified (resurrected) John 12:16.
2 Timothy 1:9-10 It was given before creation so, John 17:24 we will be where He is when we are resurrected, Jesus was given glory with the Father before all creation in God's mind and plan. Ephesians 1:4
I hope this makes sense I am not the best at this.
"And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed."
The Gospel of John began with the pure word, where the Word is a sound as well as a sign.God was the Word voice of which has been heard. By creating man a tripartite being this word is heard as well as understood. The ear of faith renders man a sign so what he hears has a natural explanation. As eyes are for seeing and ears are for hearing. But to be understood man has to rely more than ear, the very nature of the Spirit.
(1 Co15:38-41) God the Spirit gives body a glory distinct between different bodies,-as celestial objects are different from a seed. This is what faith embodies for man. It is a sign. In his humanity he showed so his death demonstrated the glory of his natural body differed from his spiritual body. It is a body building of God eternal in heavens. So we walk in faith and not by sight. Proof of this body we find in the encounter of Moses with a burning bush."And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses." God knew him already and the body He prepared for his Son has seen him and known by the same token.
We see trinity present in this episode. "And the Angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush."
The bush that did not burn foreshadowed the indwelling Spirit of a believer. The symbolism of the fire also reinforces the idea. The tree or bush we know is validated by several instances given in the Bible. Jotham's parable warns us of the fire that kills. Trees of righteousness bear the fire of the Holy Spirit while the bramble figuratively gives us sons of perdition from Cain, Abhimelech to the beast upon whom the children of wrath shall put their trust to their destruction. We see it even in our own times.
Evidence of things seen in the world of the flesh is unlike evidence of things unseen which can only be reconciled in God. ( 1 John 5:7-8) The Father the Word and the Spirit agree in one. Sum total of heaven and earth has only faith with which to possess them. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (He.11:1)
How reliable are proof in the world of the flesh? Joseph's brethren brought their evidence and their father believed it. "And they sent the coat of many colours, and they brought it to their father; and said, This have we found: know now whether it be thy son's coat or no./ And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat."(Ge.37:31-35). Similarly Potiphar's wife had proof. Substance of things presented as evidence in the world of the flesh has a way of getting lost. "Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? For riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven."(Pr.23:5)
Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. That really blesses me to know you are lifting me up in prayer. My thyroid ultrasouond showed that there are now two small nodules and that I should do a follow up ultrasound in a year. I go to the rheumatologist on Tuesday and he will evaluate why my white blood cell count is high in three of the five types of white blood cells.
Our home restoration from the pipe leak is coming along well. The flooring goes in this week as well as installing the new shower pan, walls, and doors. Then the flooring in the bathroom will be done and the vanity and toilet reset. In the other bath, the tub surround will be installed next and then the flooring, then the vanity and toilet resetting.
We spent this weekend painting rooms that will be refloored this week as some of the job is not insurance related but makes sense to do at this time. So doing the painting ourselves will save money for us. We are waiting to hear back from the adjuster to see if repainting the ceiling in the area we painted the walls will be covered since we noticed a few water spots appearing in the ceiling. Must have begun to show up as the ceiling dried. If the insurance will cover the painting, then we will have the worker remove the popcorn ceiling first and then texture and paint. The removal of the popcorn ceiling and texturing will be on us to pay for. But at least the painting may be paid for by insurance. We are faring well with all the "stuff" this involves. And it is really pleasing to me to get these things done that needed to be done decades ago when we first moved in 30 years ago.
I am thankful for the inheritance I received from my Mom when she passed almost two years ago. It will pay for what we will be doing as upgrades in this project. We will still have enough to continue to remodel all of the downstairs. So very blessed by her and thankful!
Pnovello, again, thank you for your care for me. Let me know how I can pray for you also.
Yet, since we've been given more insight to the 'origin' of this Son of God, we are compelled to give that due consideration. I realize that you have your interpretation of certain of those verses, e.g. John 1:1 & you've even given John 17:3 in your comment here. But in Jesus' prayer to His Father, He didn't stop there; He also said John 17:5. Maybe, your thoughts on what He meant, for I have labored over this verse & cannot re-construct it to fit any other meaning than what is given. Who then is this Jesus? Just a created Man from Holy Seed or One coming from the Person of God, Who shared in God's Glory, Who created the worlds, Who alone could live a sinless life to set men free from sin's grip & resulting damnation?
Lastly, you asked, "If the Trinity is true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture?" I believe that the Trinity is taught in Scripture (a few pertinent verses were previously given), just as we learn of the major doctrines: of God, of Jesus, of the Holy Spirit, of Salvation, of Satan, of the Future. It's just not given to us in a special Book or under a special Heading, "Herewith is the complete & unabridged Doctrine of ..". As in all matters spiritual, we have to learn from the reading of all Scripture, yet "rightly divided" & Spirit-guided. My natural mind wants to believe that Jesus came as God's Son, through a Divine Birth, having no previous Form within God's Person. But for me to hold to that belief means I would have to throw out a whole lot of Scripture that tells me that there is more to this Son of God than what I would like to believe. My hunger for God's Word & Truth will simply not allow me to avoid or reject those verses. And I write this purely as an arrow piercing my own heart & understanding & not pointed to anyone else, as we all have to be clear in conscience before God in the treatment of His precious Word - and I'm particularly sensitive to that - even as I "tremble at His Word". Blessings.
It is true Ronald, that most of those Scriptures you've cited certainly show that there is only One God & none else. I can wholeheartedly agree with that belief, that we together share in.
You also mentioned the Holy Spirit. Without introducing the Holy Spirit into this thread but for the sake of comparison & meditation, I'm sure you wouldn't deny that God sent out His Spirit to accomplish His Work in the World & in hearts ( John 16:7-11, & others). How can God send out His Spirit, & yet be Who He is, without being grossly deficient in His Being? Is God now Spirit-less since the Holy Spirit has been sent into the World & how can the Spirit also be dissected into millions of 'parts' (Spirits), filling each true believer with Himself, i.e. with God's Presence in them? Likewise, if God can do so with His Spirit & still be Spirit Himself, & this is a mystery to us, can He not also do so with His Word? Does this leave God devoid of knowledge, speech or thought, because He sent out His Word first by the prophets, then in & through His Son? ( Hebrews 1:1-3). The difference here now is, this Word was not just a spoken Word, but the "Word was made flesh". We couldn't say this, nor have read that any prophet of the OT, having received the Word, was made flesh.
With the many Scriptures that have already been given, I find it very reasonable to believe that this Word was treated just as God did with His Spirit. God sent out His Word in the olden days via His prophets, but the time had come when His Word would be sent out in His Son. If all we had was the account in Matthew 1:20-25 that Mary gave birth to a special Son, from the Holy Seed of God, then yes, this appearance of this One called Emmanuel & Jesus, was indeed a fresh creation by God to bring out His Word, not just in speech form, but in demonstration of the Holiness of God, His Power, His Love, & ultimately, His Sacrifice. Onto Page 2.
In light of my last posting a few seconds ago; when we wrestle with tough scriptures and go through emotional sadness over the condition of sin and its effects I thought of something else.
It probably goes without saying here how we in this country still even with all that's going on have it pretty good compared with most of the rest of the world. They wouldn't admit it of course; but this lack of scriptural knowledge on how we are called as Christians to suffer and have God chastise us has made us very weak indeed in general as believers in the USA today. If we are willing to suffer for His Name's sake; then all the arguments about the evils of the world at least can be relatable; that is hard for the prosperity teachers to grasp no doubt until perhaps some personal tragedy comes forth in their lives (which in their minds may be a financial bankruptcy due to their own greed for gain). No doubt many atheists will argue that they are concerned about evils in society; which is justified to a point as to how the compromised churches handle it or ignore problems in the world today. I'm sure some deconstructionists aren't concerned that much about others but that of course won't be an honest admission; unless they become diehard Satanists.
We of course have to be aware of how media may be bolstering views for those who disavow God and of course suppress those who do preach truth.
On the positive side there is much historical evidence for scripture; some of which is a couple hundred years old but nonetheless valid. I'm still learning myself but it is good when we can show evidence for a skeptic who is actually seeking validity of the scriptures in regard to the history. That doesn't seem to be the focus today. The whole "unhitching" concept brought up by Andy Stanley from the Old Testament seems only a step away from what many detractors are saying about Yahweh being a cruel and tempermental God.
I wanted to emphasize that those who spend a lot of time on social media are going to be blindsided by the rebuttal of well known teachers of truth by these individuals. I haven't the time or heart to stomach it; except for the rare instance when someone is discussing politics and how people are putting certain individuals on a level of worship (won't mention any names).
Sometimes there are Christians who can critique these things; but you can't be sure until watching certain videos where the narrator stands.
There are a few pastors and well known musicians who have embraced this mentality. Again; it is important for those who do believe to be aware of hypocrisy within the church so that a claim can be judged valid or invalid that is hurled as an accusation.
We can't of course win every intellectual or historical argument; but knowledge of the Bible and some worldly wisdom benefits us if we seriously engage these people; otherwise we may very well get steamrolled attempting any discourse with these individuals. Again; not for self justification-but I have attempted to bring out Calvin and Luthor as not being exactly steller examples of believers demonstrating the love of God to each other; but in the same token showing that they indeed grasp some deep truths in regard to characteristics of God's sovereignty and predestination in particular.
The hard verses I have also attempted to give some answer for where women and children; and men and animals were called for destruction. One of them is that some were giant offspring and therefore not human; and the other is that their sin (such as rampant infant sacrifices) were so heinous that if anything future suffering was relieved with their quick demise. The other point was that physical death doesn't always equate spiritual as for instance appears to be the case for children under a certain age.
If we can't struggle with the angst these truths show us we aren't very human.
In a nutshell; it is verbage intended to justify a move away from faith in the Bible. My concern is that we are able to grasp some of these concepts to have wise answers for those who examine the tough scriptures and find the God we believe in illogical; or just plain mean. These people at least are going to these passages and for those who aren't scripturally knowledgeable that is one issue; but for those who are easily swayed by these arguments will be tempted to fall away. I believe that this is part of the falling away and God judging the church; and its intended result by God would be to galvanize those of true faith to shine their light ever brighter.
It wasn't intentional on my part to focus on God's "emotions" as a direct rebuttal for such individuals; but I'm trying to go through tough scriptures. The hardest ones; of course talk of God destroying men; women and children. I suspect part of the problem is with professing believers who take concepts like God's love and want to forget about His wrath as having to be the other side of God's character; the same idea exists with blessing and cursings which also are prominent throughout scripture.
Misuse of scriptures by professing Christians; of course has justified in some minds adultery; abuse of women and children; and violence; a greedy "prosperity" gospel; etc. I believe we need more individuals weeping as it were in front of the altar; genuine remorse for sin; of course only comes from those transformed within; and most atheists cannot deny when a person is genuine; even if they hate what they have to say.
It used to be years ago that some would quietly walk away from church; often because they cherished their sin too much; but they had enough sense not to continue in church as a hypocrite with their lives contradicting in action what they were called to claim to believe. Nowadays; the pride of society seems to have brought many who want to prove through arguments how dumb our faith is.
Happy to pray for your children. My three sons are away from the Lord and need to be "prayed back to the Father" in the sense of being prodigals and as believing parents we are called to persist in pray to God until He answers our sincere prayers for those we love to return to Him by the drawing of the Holy Spirit. It is hard at times since I think of all the valuable family time in believing fellowship that has been lost while they are out "prodigaling" but even more so that they are not in fellowship with God. But I trust that God hears all my prayers and He has tarried in this request for a reason. But I want to be faithful in prayer and hopeful concerning the promises we have in Christ concerning our prayers being answered according to the will of the Father.
Hi Richard. You mentioned deconstructionism. This is a new term for me. Can you please explain what the idea is of deconstructionism is and how it affects Christian doctrine? Thanks, I appreciate that.
As of the last week or so in particular I have noticed a plethora of deconstructionist type videos appearing on You Tube. I am not sure if something I looked at recently triggered this; or it is something which at this time is gaining traction (which I would assume in general it is).
I have seen a number of interesting topics on this site recently; but as with the first thing I mentioned I have concerns about endless intellectual arguments that lead us nowhere. That can be true to some extent even with scripture; although I am glad to see so much of it coming up of late with such topics as the Trinity in particular there also needs to be the realization that we never will understand everything about the scriptures and mysteries of God and second there has to be some sort of agreement and there should be unity on the basic concepts of scripture as believers. Without this concept then anyone can throw us off; because even with true faith more questions inevitably arise whenever one is answered. This seems like blind faith to some degree; but I would characterize it as a trusting faith in a God that gives us enough guidelines to remain on the straight and narrow to make it to the Promised Land. We can't always put our understanding as the standard of whether we accept or reject something. We trust that the scripture is sufficient for all doctrine; teaching; etc ( 2 Timothy 3:16 I believe).
Some things for the future are clear enough; certainly there is no end for instance to the Father; Son or Spirit even if we have some issue with eternity past; but in the same token if we start to doubt one thing likely the enemy will cause us to doubt other things. One could look at Predestination in light of this concept as well; whether we believe in free will or not in the end we should agree that God is fair and the number saved and lost will be set in stone in the future even if we don't believe it was in the past.
Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3Ephesians 6:231 Thessalonians 1:12 Timothy 1:2Titus 1:42 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
Prayers & Thanks! Things are good. I'm a home health care nurse for a friend & got my job back working for this City part time. Nice to be back on here with true believers, in Southern Utah that's hard to find. In need of prayer for my kids however, at least oldest 2. One is slipping away from Jesus & another thinks their bi. God bless & thnx again, Texsis
'In the beginning' is provided by the third office in Trinity. In organizing the narrative it is Spirit who makes it according to scriptures. The Ethiopian eunuch would not have had help in understanding the passage from Isaiah but the Spirit set up the encounter between Evangelist Philip and the Ethiopian official. Jesus settle in Capernaum and the passage reads,"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,/ The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;/The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up./From that time Jesus began to preach."(Matt.4:14-17)
The Spirit works on a need-to-know basis. So Jesus leaves behind his anonymity to begin his earthly ministry as though on cue.
'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is both sound and a sign. Jesus was in humanity a sign. "And there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:/For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."(Matt.12:39-40)
When God commanded "Let there be light" there was light. We have God a Spirit explained in terms of the Word. The Word was God the Father. The Word became flesh, the Son. The Third office of the Spirit is in the department of Unity of the Spirit and sets tags on the basis of the earthly ministry giving us how to interpret the realities of heaven of the earth.
Heavenly Father, we come to you again today in Jesus' name and ask that You will bring to Tamar safety in her comings and goings as well as in her dwelling, provide for Tamar a job that is the best fit for her, protect her in all situations in her life, and cause her body to be healthy and strong against illness and anything that may bring harm to her body. We know that You hear our prayers because of our Lord Jesus, Your Son is our mediator. we thank you for the wondrous way You have saved us and the riches beyond measure You bring to those who are Yours and are called by name to be Your children. May You bless Tamar ever so much today and moving forward, bless her comings and her goings, her resting and her working, the interactions she has with others, and mostly in her relationship with You and Your Son, Jesus. fFill her up with your Holy Spirit to receive comfort, guidance, peace, and wisdom. Amen.
Good question. We are face to a deep and terrible puzzle/enigma. The most important is the Truth. GOD is Truth. The Word is GOD. The Word is from everlasting to everlasting. The GOD's people needs to investigate and seek Truth.
Replying to your question, I must say that NAME does not exist in the original Hebrew Scripture, it was simply added.
Remember, JESUS said: Re.22:18 -> I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, GOD shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.
What matters and prevails is the pure Word of GOD. Isaiah 12:3KJV says: Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. (Jo.7:38-> He that believes on me, as the Scripture has said,out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Compare with John 5:37-47)
4 And in that Day (in this current Day, the seventh and last Day) shall ye say, Praise the Lord, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.(This will LITERALLY be fulfilled: Revelation 7:1-8. 144K)
5 Sing unto the Lord; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth. -> ( Revelation 11:15-18, among other biblical references.Take a look)
6 Cry out and shout, you inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee. -> (Re.1:7-8-> 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, sais the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. ->7 Behold,He comes with clouds;and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Adam was created; and the Lord from heaven, the Word become flesh. For this reason Adam was a stand-in for Jesus Christ. So the separation of light from darkness (Ge.1:3-4) shall have two nations, of light and of wrath. Seth onwards we see heirs of promises because they represent Jesus Christ who was to come. The idea 'only begotten Son ( John 3:16) signify the Word or the Law in operation. Humanity of Jesus has to be seen as faithful and true witness of it.
Thank you Bennymkje for those extra comments on God's Creative Work, particularly noting you referred to the first Adam (Man) & the last Adam (the Man Christ Jesus). The first was from "the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). The first was created from the dust of the Earth, Jesus was never created from anything but was the Lord from Heaven sent to Earth in human form. Is this what you also believe?
In addition to the earlier reply may I add to what you state,"but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan."
The principles of Wisdom and Power have a bearing on the Son, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,"(He.1:3) The word of his power is assigned to the same one who is the judge. God does not judge since it left for the Son as he is his fulfilling aspect. The Order of his kingdom is not maintained solely by power but by wisdom in equal measures. So when we speak of Law it is consistent. The eternal Word is the Law. God breathed into the nostrils of Adam and made him a living soul. It is the seed which is in itself. This seed and the one who plants it are same. Adam is the son of God because of this seed. This explains the classic conundrum: which came first: the chicken or egg? God had seen both as one. It was thus when God says,"Let us make man in our image" the word was in the power as well. Glory of God is in its expression. Jesus Christ as the visible image of the invisible God is 'the brightness of his glory'
It is to which we read "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light./And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."(Ge.1:3-4) God is the Father of lights and Jesus Christ as the true Light referring to the brightness. This light has nothing to do with celestial objects but it refers to the Law and those who have the seed of the word in themselves so they obey the word of God. Children of light and children of disobedience are determined by the Word.
Abiding in Christ means one's works are done as though Christ in his did. On the other hand Adam's sin was in disregarding 'the seed in itself'.
Satan is the Father of confusion. Organized churches took root from Pagan Rome, that tells.
You state: "'can Jesus, being in God's Mind only, be the One Whom God uses to create all things?' So what I see here, is that the origin & need of Jesus was a Plan in God's Mind, but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan."
God is one. This Order relates to two principles of Wisdom and Power, which are the basis for all action including creation. Wisdom is feminine principle. So when God says, Let us make man in our image' it was implied. Male and female created he them. this image/likeness was in two senses:Eve was represented in Adam. This explains Ro.5 where Adam and Jesus are representative of two groups. Ro.5:12,17
2) Christ and the Bride. Adams' knowledge of 'Flesh of my flesh bone of my bones' owe to the breath of God. bone refers to the word, doctrine spiritual flesh 'formed of dust' earthy.
God is a Spirit and Jesus Christ is the visible image of God. Adam is the son of God.( Luke 3:78) In Adam consequently Jesus is represented. To which we have the terms first Adam and 'last Adam' (1 Co.15:45)
Now the divine Will which owing to his Holiness, requires no correction and it is in the NOW. So symbol of the Lamb slain (Re.13:8) is simultaneous as the Lamb of God ( John 1:29). The same can be said of the Throne of God and of the Lamb.(Re.22:1) Jesus Christ as the visible image is same, yesterday, today and forever..He 13:8. For this reason God rested on the seventh 'day' which is not day as we know the term. God's Will as established as the Wisdom of Jesus who of God shall fulfill them.
Your quote, "but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan." Amen
I will try to keep this short Ronald; to one point only.
I've selected these following extracts, to help understand, if you will, the sequence of events emanating from Heaven. You wrote: "My understanding is the pre-existence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created"; "In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything"; and "He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world".
Given what you've declared, can I assume the following: Jesus was already in God's Mind & Plan (i.e. no physical Jesus yet) before anything was created; but through Jesus, Who was still in God's Mind/Plan, everything was created; even though Jesus (Who could only be in God's Mind at the time) preceded creation, through Jesus all was created & then Jesus was brought forth into the world. I've written this as I've understood your wording; let me know if I've misunderstood you.
If my understanding is correct, my question is, 'can Jesus, being in God's Mind only, be the One Whom God uses to create all things?' So what I see here, is that the origin & need of Jesus was a Plan in God's Mind, but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan. We have no conflict about the Spirit, should we be in dispute about the Word being sent out in flesh? Even Jesus claimed to share in God's Glory before creation ( John 17:5).
And one more point on this: why do you think that God would use a thought (of Jesus) in His Mind to begin the work of creation? I can see where this would be a salvation matter, but of creating (?) - wouldn't God still be able to create without Jesus being a thought in His Mind? We may be closer than we think: is Jesus a result of a Thought or a Word? It is possible that at this point is where our hurdle lies. GBU.
Trust in the word, " Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."(Ph.1:6)
I don't believe anyone see the Trinity in 1 John 1:1 by itself but I do believe it's seen in 1 John 1:1-7 and John 1:10 without having to add or take away from Scripture.
And, 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" was dealt with between you and others.
However the first part of that verse "That which was from the beginning". Is easily seen that this portion of scripture takes a person (Jesus) and associates him with a beginning as mentioned in John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD.
Jn 1:10. He was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not.
it's clear Jesus existed before his earthly ministry.
Are you going into your studies without a predetermined position?
Ronald with all due respect your passion and study in this seems to be to exterminate the view rather search to see if it is any truth to it.
I believe in what John 1:1 says that line up with scriptures from Genesis 1:1 on through Revelation.
Thanks Brother and I pray that God bless you in your journey as you continue in your studies.
Part one.
Thank you for continuing the discussion, I also tremble at His word we are just a spec compared to our God. Deuteronomy 18:15-19 This to me is fulfilled in John 1:1 the word of God in Jesus the Messiah. When Jesus was anointed the Messiah every word that Jesus said was the word of God the word of God in the flesh of His Son. Everything that was created was created by the word of God, not His Son. God said let there be, and it was.
If we read Isaiah 66:1 we cannot imagine how large God can be. He can overwhelm all of what we can imagine. In my human mind, I see His Spirit cover the earth like a dome, omnipresent, it is like an electrical grid that believers plug into, I know that may sound weird.
John 17 I will do my best to show my understanding, this is just before Jesus was going to be nailed to the cross. Verses 1-5 Jesus is praying to the Father about Himself, the Father is God, when we pray, we pray to our Father, and we relate to God as Father, through the Bible Father means God and Jesus said to His Father He is the only true God. In and through Jesus Christ we become sons and daughters of God, so we cry out Abba, Father, Galatians 4:6.
Jesus said He had finished the work the Father had given to Him and Jesus glorified His Father on earth. Jesus is now ready to face death on the cross and fulfilling the law and the prophet's, all of what Scripture had said what He would become, and Jesus was ready to take His place on the right hand of His Father, Isaiah 53:12 Jeremiah 23:5-6 2 Samuel 7:12-13 Psalm 110:4 Psalm 16:10, these are just a few verses that Jesus would have known about Himself.
In Daniel 7:13-14 Daniel had a prophetic vision of Jesus's ascension and God the Father giving His Son Jesus dominion and glory overall and giving Him the kingdom. God showed Daniel this was with God in the beginning, in God's plan but did not come to fruition until Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9.
See part 2.
Part two
Vs 5 The plan of God, predetermined glory, Jesus knew the Scriptures. All that was to happen to Him and the glory He would receive after He suffered on the cross had already been spoken by the prophets in the past tense as though they had already happened.
As Jesus was on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24:25-26, He talks about them not believing what the prophets had written about what was to happen to Jesus. The first man to be raised from the dead in a glorified body and God placed Him on His right hand on the throne a man, not a god.
Jesus was a man who was tempted like us and fulfilled all His Father asked Him we see hundreds of prophecies Jesus fulfilled and the man Jesus did it without one sin. Only a man could undo what the first man did. God could not do that because He cannot sin or die. The law was made for man and the curse of sin was on man, not God.
In Verses 20-22, Jesus had not yet been crucified and the glory the Father had given Him Jesus has given it to us today "but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" This glory we will receive when Jesus returns and we are resurrected in our glorified bodies, we have it now, but it will not be manifest until Jesus returns.
If Jesus was a co-equal God in the three-person God, how could He be given anything He would already have it? Malachi 3:6 says God does not change so God cannot change, Numbers 23:19 Isaiah 46:10 Psalm 33:11 Acts 17:26 The glory Jesus was asking for, He would receive when He resurrected.
The Spirit could not be given because Jesus had not been glorified (resurrected) John 7:39 Things were hidden from the disciples until Jesus was glorified (resurrected) John 12:16.
2 Timothy 1:9-10 It was given before creation so, John 17:24 we will be where He is when we are resurrected, Jesus was given glory with the Father before all creation in God's mind and plan. Ephesians 1:4
I hope this makes sense I am not the best at this.
God bless,
RLW
"And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed."
The Gospel of John began with the pure word, where the Word is a sound as well as a sign.God was the Word voice of which has been heard. By creating man a tripartite being this word is heard as well as understood. The ear of faith renders man a sign so what he hears has a natural explanation. As eyes are for seeing and ears are for hearing. But to be understood man has to rely more than ear, the very nature of the Spirit.
(1 Co15:38-41) God the Spirit gives body a glory distinct between different bodies,-as celestial objects are different from a seed. This is what faith embodies for man. It is a sign. In his humanity he showed so his death demonstrated the glory of his natural body differed from his spiritual body. It is a body building of God eternal in heavens. So we walk in faith and not by sight. Proof of this body we find in the encounter of Moses with a burning bush."And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses." God knew him already and the body He prepared for his Son has seen him and known by the same token.
We see trinity present in this episode. "And the Angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush."
The bush that did not burn foreshadowed the indwelling Spirit of a believer. The symbolism of the fire also reinforces the idea. The tree or bush we know is validated by several instances given in the Bible. Jotham's parable warns us of the fire that kills. Trees of righteousness bear the fire of the Holy Spirit while the bramble figuratively gives us sons of perdition from Cain, Abhimelech to the beast upon whom the children of wrath shall put their trust to their destruction. We see it even in our own times.
Evidence of things seen in the world of the flesh is unlike evidence of things unseen which can only be reconciled in God. ( 1 John 5:7-8) The Father the Word and the Spirit agree in one. Sum total of heaven and earth has only faith with which to possess them. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (He.11:1)
How reliable are proof in the world of the flesh? Joseph's brethren brought their evidence and their father believed it. "And they sent the coat of many colours, and they brought it to their father; and said, This have we found: know now whether it be thy son's coat or no./ And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat."(Ge.37:31-35). Similarly Potiphar's wife had proof. Substance of things presented as evidence in the world of the flesh has a way of getting lost. "Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? For riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven."(Pr.23:5)
Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. That really blesses me to know you are lifting me up in prayer. My thyroid ultrasouond showed that there are now two small nodules and that I should do a follow up ultrasound in a year. I go to the rheumatologist on Tuesday and he will evaluate why my white blood cell count is high in three of the five types of white blood cells.
Our home restoration from the pipe leak is coming along well. The flooring goes in this week as well as installing the new shower pan, walls, and doors. Then the flooring in the bathroom will be done and the vanity and toilet reset. In the other bath, the tub surround will be installed next and then the flooring, then the vanity and toilet resetting.
We spent this weekend painting rooms that will be refloored this week as some of the job is not insurance related but makes sense to do at this time. So doing the painting ourselves will save money for us. We are waiting to hear back from the adjuster to see if repainting the ceiling in the area we painted the walls will be covered since we noticed a few water spots appearing in the ceiling. Must have begun to show up as the ceiling dried. If the insurance will cover the painting, then we will have the worker remove the popcorn ceiling first and then texture and paint. The removal of the popcorn ceiling and texturing will be on us to pay for. But at least the painting may be paid for by insurance. We are faring well with all the "stuff" this involves. And it is really pleasing to me to get these things done that needed to be done decades ago when we first moved in 30 years ago.
I am thankful for the inheritance I received from my Mom when she passed almost two years ago. It will pay for what we will be doing as upgrades in this project. We will still have enough to continue to remodel all of the downstairs. So very blessed by her and thankful!
Pnovello, again, thank you for your care for me. Let me know how I can pray for you also.
Yet, since we've been given more insight to the 'origin' of this Son of God, we are compelled to give that due consideration. I realize that you have your interpretation of certain of those verses, e.g. John 1:1 & you've even given John 17:3 in your comment here. But in Jesus' prayer to His Father, He didn't stop there; He also said John 17:5. Maybe, your thoughts on what He meant, for I have labored over this verse & cannot re-construct it to fit any other meaning than what is given. Who then is this Jesus? Just a created Man from Holy Seed or One coming from the Person of God, Who shared in God's Glory, Who created the worlds, Who alone could live a sinless life to set men free from sin's grip & resulting damnation?
Lastly, you asked, "If the Trinity is true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture?" I believe that the Trinity is taught in Scripture (a few pertinent verses were previously given), just as we learn of the major doctrines: of God, of Jesus, of the Holy Spirit, of Salvation, of Satan, of the Future. It's just not given to us in a special Book or under a special Heading, "Herewith is the complete & unabridged Doctrine of ..". As in all matters spiritual, we have to learn from the reading of all Scripture, yet "rightly divided" & Spirit-guided. My natural mind wants to believe that Jesus came as God's Son, through a Divine Birth, having no previous Form within God's Person. But for me to hold to that belief means I would have to throw out a whole lot of Scripture that tells me that there is more to this Son of God than what I would like to believe. My hunger for God's Word & Truth will simply not allow me to avoid or reject those verses. And I write this purely as an arrow piercing my own heart & understanding & not pointed to anyone else, as we all have to be clear in conscience before God in the treatment of His precious Word - and I'm particularly sensitive to that - even as I "tremble at His Word". Blessings.
It is true Ronald, that most of those Scriptures you've cited certainly show that there is only One God & none else. I can wholeheartedly agree with that belief, that we together share in.
You also mentioned the Holy Spirit. Without introducing the Holy Spirit into this thread but for the sake of comparison & meditation, I'm sure you wouldn't deny that God sent out His Spirit to accomplish His Work in the World & in hearts ( John 16:7-11, & others). How can God send out His Spirit, & yet be Who He is, without being grossly deficient in His Being? Is God now Spirit-less since the Holy Spirit has been sent into the World & how can the Spirit also be dissected into millions of 'parts' (Spirits), filling each true believer with Himself, i.e. with God's Presence in them? Likewise, if God can do so with His Spirit & still be Spirit Himself, & this is a mystery to us, can He not also do so with His Word? Does this leave God devoid of knowledge, speech or thought, because He sent out His Word first by the prophets, then in & through His Son? ( Hebrews 1:1-3). The difference here now is, this Word was not just a spoken Word, but the "Word was made flesh". We couldn't say this, nor have read that any prophet of the OT, having received the Word, was made flesh.
With the many Scriptures that have already been given, I find it very reasonable to believe that this Word was treated just as God did with His Spirit. God sent out His Word in the olden days via His prophets, but the time had come when His Word would be sent out in His Son. If all we had was the account in Matthew 1:20-25 that Mary gave birth to a special Son, from the Holy Seed of God, then yes, this appearance of this One called Emmanuel & Jesus, was indeed a fresh creation by God to bring out His Word, not just in speech form, but in demonstration of the Holiness of God, His Power, His Love, & ultimately, His Sacrifice. Onto Page 2.
In light of my last posting a few seconds ago; when we wrestle with tough scriptures and go through emotional sadness over the condition of sin and its effects I thought of something else.
It probably goes without saying here how we in this country still even with all that's going on have it pretty good compared with most of the rest of the world. They wouldn't admit it of course; but this lack of scriptural knowledge on how we are called as Christians to suffer and have God chastise us has made us very weak indeed in general as believers in the USA today. If we are willing to suffer for His Name's sake; then all the arguments about the evils of the world at least can be relatable; that is hard for the prosperity teachers to grasp no doubt until perhaps some personal tragedy comes forth in their lives (which in their minds may be a financial bankruptcy due to their own greed for gain). No doubt many atheists will argue that they are concerned about evils in society; which is justified to a point as to how the compromised churches handle it or ignore problems in the world today. I'm sure some deconstructionists aren't concerned that much about others but that of course won't be an honest admission; unless they become diehard Satanists.
We of course have to be aware of how media may be bolstering views for those who disavow God and of course suppress those who do preach truth.
On the positive side there is much historical evidence for scripture; some of which is a couple hundred years old but nonetheless valid. I'm still learning myself but it is good when we can show evidence for a skeptic who is actually seeking validity of the scriptures in regard to the history. That doesn't seem to be the focus today. The whole "unhitching" concept brought up by Andy Stanley from the Old Testament seems only a step away from what many detractors are saying about Yahweh being a cruel and tempermental God.
I wanted to emphasize that those who spend a lot of time on social media are going to be blindsided by the rebuttal of well known teachers of truth by these individuals. I haven't the time or heart to stomach it; except for the rare instance when someone is discussing politics and how people are putting certain individuals on a level of worship (won't mention any names).
Sometimes there are Christians who can critique these things; but you can't be sure until watching certain videos where the narrator stands.
There are a few pastors and well known musicians who have embraced this mentality. Again; it is important for those who do believe to be aware of hypocrisy within the church so that a claim can be judged valid or invalid that is hurled as an accusation.
We can't of course win every intellectual or historical argument; but knowledge of the Bible and some worldly wisdom benefits us if we seriously engage these people; otherwise we may very well get steamrolled attempting any discourse with these individuals. Again; not for self justification-but I have attempted to bring out Calvin and Luthor as not being exactly steller examples of believers demonstrating the love of God to each other; but in the same token showing that they indeed grasp some deep truths in regard to characteristics of God's sovereignty and predestination in particular.
The hard verses I have also attempted to give some answer for where women and children; and men and animals were called for destruction. One of them is that some were giant offspring and therefore not human; and the other is that their sin (such as rampant infant sacrifices) were so heinous that if anything future suffering was relieved with their quick demise. The other point was that physical death doesn't always equate spiritual as for instance appears to be the case for children under a certain age.
If we can't struggle with the angst these truths show us we aren't very human.
It wasn't intentional on my part to focus on God's "emotions" as a direct rebuttal for such individuals; but I'm trying to go through tough scriptures. The hardest ones; of course talk of God destroying men; women and children. I suspect part of the problem is with professing believers who take concepts like God's love and want to forget about His wrath as having to be the other side of God's character; the same idea exists with blessing and cursings which also are prominent throughout scripture.
Misuse of scriptures by professing Christians; of course has justified in some minds adultery; abuse of women and children; and violence; a greedy "prosperity" gospel; etc. I believe we need more individuals weeping as it were in front of the altar; genuine remorse for sin; of course only comes from those transformed within; and most atheists cannot deny when a person is genuine; even if they hate what they have to say.
It used to be years ago that some would quietly walk away from church; often because they cherished their sin too much; but they had enough sense not to continue in church as a hypocrite with their lives contradicting in action what they were called to claim to believe. Nowadays; the pride of society seems to have brought many who want to prove through arguments how dumb our faith is.
Happy to pray for your children. My three sons are away from the Lord and need to be "prayed back to the Father" in the sense of being prodigals and as believing parents we are called to persist in pray to God until He answers our sincere prayers for those we love to return to Him by the drawing of the Holy Spirit. It is hard at times since I think of all the valuable family time in believing fellowship that has been lost while they are out "prodigaling" but even more so that they are not in fellowship with God. But I trust that God hears all my prayers and He has tarried in this request for a reason. But I want to be faithful in prayer and hopeful concerning the promises we have in Christ concerning our prayers being answered according to the will of the Father.
As of the last week or so in particular I have noticed a plethora of deconstructionist type videos appearing on You Tube. I am not sure if something I looked at recently triggered this; or it is something which at this time is gaining traction (which I would assume in general it is).
I have seen a number of interesting topics on this site recently; but as with the first thing I mentioned I have concerns about endless intellectual arguments that lead us nowhere. That can be true to some extent even with scripture; although I am glad to see so much of it coming up of late with such topics as the Trinity in particular there also needs to be the realization that we never will understand everything about the scriptures and mysteries of God and second there has to be some sort of agreement and there should be unity on the basic concepts of scripture as believers. Without this concept then anyone can throw us off; because even with true faith more questions inevitably arise whenever one is answered. This seems like blind faith to some degree; but I would characterize it as a trusting faith in a God that gives us enough guidelines to remain on the straight and narrow to make it to the Promised Land. We can't always put our understanding as the standard of whether we accept or reject something. We trust that the scripture is sufficient for all doctrine; teaching; etc ( 2 Timothy 3:16 I believe).
Some things for the future are clear enough; certainly there is no end for instance to the Father; Son or Spirit even if we have some issue with eternity past; but in the same token if we start to doubt one thing likely the enemy will cause us to doubt other things. One could look at Predestination in light of this concept as well; whether we believe in free will or not in the end we should agree that God is fair and the number saved and lost will be set in stone in the future even if we don't believe it was in the past.
Just observing
Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17 Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 2 Timothy 1:2 Titus 1:4 2 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
God bless,
RLW
'In the beginning' is provided by the third office in Trinity. In organizing the narrative it is Spirit who makes it according to scriptures. The Ethiopian eunuch would not have had help in understanding the passage from Isaiah but the Spirit set up the encounter between Evangelist Philip and the Ethiopian official. Jesus settle in Capernaum and the passage reads,"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,/ The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;/The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up./From that time Jesus began to preach."(Matt.4:14-17)
The Spirit works on a need-to-know basis. So Jesus leaves behind his anonymity to begin his earthly ministry as though on cue.
'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is both sound and a sign. Jesus was in humanity a sign. "And there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:/For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."(Matt.12:39-40)
When God commanded "Let there be light" there was light. We have God a Spirit explained in terms of the Word. The Word was God the Father. The Word became flesh, the Son. The Third office of the Spirit is in the department of Unity of the Spirit and sets tags on the basis of the earthly ministry giving us how to interpret the realities of heaven of the earth.
Heavenly Father, we come to you again today in Jesus' name and ask that You will bring to Tamar safety in her comings and goings as well as in her dwelling, provide for Tamar a job that is the best fit for her, protect her in all situations in her life, and cause her body to be healthy and strong against illness and anything that may bring harm to her body. We know that You hear our prayers because of our Lord Jesus, Your Son is our mediator. we thank you for the wondrous way You have saved us and the riches beyond measure You bring to those who are Yours and are called by name to be Your children. May You bless Tamar ever so much today and moving forward, bless her comings and her goings, her resting and her working, the interactions she has with others, and mostly in her relationship with You and Your Son, Jesus. fFill her up with your Holy Spirit to receive comfort, guidance, peace, and wisdom. Amen.
Good question. We are face to a deep and terrible puzzle/enigma. The most important is the Truth. GOD is Truth. The Word is GOD. The Word is from everlasting to everlasting. The GOD's people needs to investigate and seek Truth.
Replying to your question, I must say that NAME does not exist in the original Hebrew Scripture, it was simply added.
Remember, JESUS said: Re.22:18 -> I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, GOD shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.
What matters and prevails is the pure Word of GOD. Isaiah 12:3KJV says: Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. (Jo.7:38-> He that believes on me, as the Scripture has said,out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Compare with John 5:37-47)
4 And in that Day (in this current Day, the seventh and last Day) shall ye say, Praise the Lord, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.(This will LITERALLY be fulfilled: Revelation 7:1-8. 144K)
5 Sing unto the Lord; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth. -> ( Revelation 11:15-18, among other biblical references.Take a look)
6 Cry out and shout, you inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee. -> (Re.1:7-8-> 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, sais the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. ->7 Behold,He comes with clouds;and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
GOD BLESS
The principles of Wisdom and Power have a bearing on the Son, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,"(He.1:3) The word of his power is assigned to the same one who is the judge. God does not judge since it left for the Son as he is his fulfilling aspect. The Order of his kingdom is not maintained solely by power but by wisdom in equal measures. So when we speak of Law it is consistent. The eternal Word is the Law. God breathed into the nostrils of Adam and made him a living soul. It is the seed which is in itself. This seed and the one who plants it are same. Adam is the son of God because of this seed. This explains the classic conundrum: which came first: the chicken or egg? God had seen both as one. It was thus when God says,"Let us make man in our image" the word was in the power as well. Glory of God is in its expression. Jesus Christ as the visible image of the invisible God is 'the brightness of his glory'
It is to which we read "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light./And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."(Ge.1:3-4) God is the Father of lights and Jesus Christ as the true Light referring to the brightness. This light has nothing to do with celestial objects but it refers to the Law and those who have the seed of the word in themselves so they obey the word of God. Children of light and children of disobedience are determined by the Word.
Abiding in Christ means one's works are done as though Christ in his did. On the other hand Adam's sin was in disregarding 'the seed in itself'.
Satan is the Father of confusion. Organized churches took root from Pagan Rome, that tells.
God is one. This Order relates to two principles of Wisdom and Power, which are the basis for all action including creation. Wisdom is feminine principle. So when God says, Let us make man in our image' it was implied. Male and female created he them. this image/likeness was in two senses:Eve was represented in Adam. This explains Ro.5 where Adam and Jesus are representative of two groups. Ro.5:12,17
2) Christ and the Bride. Adams' knowledge of 'Flesh of my flesh bone of my bones' owe to the breath of God. bone refers to the word, doctrine spiritual flesh 'formed of dust' earthy.
God is a Spirit and Jesus Christ is the visible image of God. Adam is the son of God.( Luke 3:78) In Adam consequently Jesus is represented. To which we have the terms first Adam and 'last Adam' (1 Co.15:45)
Now the divine Will which owing to his Holiness, requires no correction and it is in the NOW. So symbol of the Lamb slain (Re.13:8) is simultaneous as the Lamb of God ( John 1:29). The same can be said of the Throne of God and of the Lamb.(Re.22:1) Jesus Christ as the visible image is same, yesterday, today and forever..He 13:8. For this reason God rested on the seventh 'day' which is not day as we know the term. God's Will as established as the Wisdom of Jesus who of God shall fulfill them.
Your quote, "but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan." Amen
I've selected these following extracts, to help understand, if you will, the sequence of events emanating from Heaven. You wrote: "My understanding is the pre-existence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created"; "In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything"; and "He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world".
Given what you've declared, can I assume the following: Jesus was already in God's Mind & Plan (i.e. no physical Jesus yet) before anything was created; but through Jesus, Who was still in God's Mind/Plan, everything was created; even though Jesus (Who could only be in God's Mind at the time) preceded creation, through Jesus all was created & then Jesus was brought forth into the world. I've written this as I've understood your wording; let me know if I've misunderstood you.
If my understanding is correct, my question is, 'can Jesus, being in God's Mind only, be the One Whom God uses to create all things?' So what I see here, is that the origin & need of Jesus was a Plan in God's Mind, but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan. We have no conflict about the Spirit, should we be in dispute about the Word being sent out in flesh? Even Jesus claimed to share in God's Glory before creation ( John 17:5).
And one more point on this: why do you think that God would use a thought (of Jesus) in His Mind to begin the work of creation? I can see where this would be a salvation matter, but of creating (?) - wouldn't God still be able to create without Jesus being a thought in His Mind? We may be closer than we think: is Jesus a result of a Thought or a Word? It is possible that at this point is where our hurdle lies. GBU.
Trust in the word, " Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."(Ph.1:6)
I don't believe anyone see the Trinity in 1 John 1:1 by itself but I do believe it's seen in 1 John 1:1-7 and John 1:10 without having to add or take away from Scripture.
And, 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" was dealt with between you and others.
However the first part of that verse "That which was from the beginning". Is easily seen that this portion of scripture takes a person (Jesus) and associates him with a beginning as mentioned in John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD.
Jn 1:10. He was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not.
it's clear Jesus existed before his earthly ministry.
Are you going into your studies without a predetermined position?
Ronald with all due respect your passion and study in this seems to be to exterminate the view rather search to see if it is any truth to it.
I believe in what John 1:1 says that line up with scriptures from Genesis 1:1 on through Revelation.
Thanks Brother and I pray that God bless you in your journey as you continue in your studies.