About perfectness. I think the Bible uses this word with various meanings
1. Lets see as Richard says Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.". Now the verb "be" in grk (esesthai) is in the future tense and denotes an expectation. So what Jesus is actually saying here (as I understand it) is that He expects us to become perfect like God is. Well this is impossible, isn't it? So what He means is that He expects us to strive to be like God (in character). And how is that to be done? By following His commandments, which commandments reveal the character of God to us. And since one aspect (and probably the most important) of God's character is love Jesus asks us to love each other like God does. This is something gradual, isn't it? It is something that we keep aquiring through our whole life.
If we compare it with Hebrews 5:8,9, "8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Here Jesus iwas made perfect by obeying God's commandments.
So perfectness again here means a whole route/course that we follow in our lives during which, by following God's commandements/directions we keep growing spiritually and getting to be like God in character more and more.
2. But in Hebrews 10:14, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified", the word perfect has a different meaning. It means the one who has no sins. So we were perfected by Jesus' Blood, that is we are righteous through His sacrifice.
3. In Hebrews 11:38-40 says, "39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."
Here perfectness is something that we will aquire in Heaven when we will be dressed up with our new spiritual body, completely freed from sin, death etc
The world socially bullies others to publicly affirm and validate another's' sin, or face consequences such as cancelling and public shaming. Since when are rights contingent on someone else's opinion of you?
Is it more important to appease men, or more important to please God? To the church, it should be obvious what the priority is, but I think some cave to public pressure and fear they may lose funding or social status by not siding with the bullies. Some try to appease the world instead of God.
What's this bullying really about and why the huge push in recent years? They claim its their identity, they're born that way, and don't have a choice. But has anyone challenged this assumption?
What are other examples of someone born with such a high proclivity to sin that they absolutely "have no choice"? I'm not aware of any, in fact, the Bible says we always have a choice- a way out of sin. 1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV
We all have different obstacles in life; some, like Paul, had a thorn in the flesh. 2 Corinthians 12:7
I reject the assumption that some people are more "equal" than others. Equal means equal, not special protected classes and treatment. I've learned that the woke movement is now racially separating people just like they did 100 years ago, whether for hiring, or DEI classes, and who knows what else. Amazing full circle. They totally ignored everything MLK stood for.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28 KJV
The culture is ignoring this verse that we're equal.
There's no evidence anyone's identity is tied to sin so much they can't help but do that. No baby desires such things. It's learned and when opportunities present themselves. Now pedos use same arguments to excuse their horrific abuse of kids. The culture will use clever words to defend it. There's no end to the evil progression. It's a choice.
The grk for "disciple" is "mathetes". It comes from the verb "mathaino" which means "to learn". So the precise meaning of the grk for disciple is "a learner, a student, pupil". In the ancient world, the followers of the greek philosophers (from the verb "philo" which means "to love" and "sophia" which means "wisdom") were also called "mathetes". So the word had a broader meaning, it was used for those who follow/spend a long time with, and learn from somebody who played the role of a teacher. Plato, Socrates, Aristotle and many others had established academies/schools and had disciples who were learning their wisdom about the world.
I'll defer to your judgment; as it is probably more mature than mine; and you have been on this site a lot longer than I have I would expect...
I will have to evaluate my own time on this site and if and when I should respond or not. It isn't just the subject matter that worries me it is a general mindset of having to debate a subject without much scripture; or things that don't really add any meaning to an argument-at least from my vantage point. Do we really want to know the Lord better when discussions like this come up in the first place? I don't sense lately much teachability; I'd like to learn some stuff too with these debates. Nothing wrong I guess with the sometimes detailed scriptural analysis; except for the fact thought patterns and the scriptures used confuse me quite often as to how exactly they corroborate any particular concept brought up. Maybe it's just me.
I'm hoping there is some use here for those who are young in the faith who want to grow; although I can't remember the last time anyone actually expressed being anew believer here. I sense that people who have had some faith for a time are more represented; and that coming with whatever baggage associated with their own viewpoints. I sense that many have been taught a certain way and haven't really taken the time quite often to search the scriptures as Bereans. Again; there usually is a certain truth in both "camps" whether predestination vs. free will; the "Trinity" or concept of one God. Properly dividing the scriptures in context and precise meanings (or at least as close as we can get to it) is also helpful.
I don't know maybe I am hypocritical; I thought I was trying to give an open minded presentation in regard to the aforementioned factors; but perhaps not. I hope to hear from you on your thoughts about emphasizing daily scripture reading and prayer as well as fulfillment of the commandment of the Great Commission as to how this site can prompt participants in that way.
David Allen, thanks for letting me know about this serious and sensitive situation with Jessica. So sad that she has been enduring abuse and threats from the one she loves and is committed to in marriage. But moving out of the situation is the best for her and Addie. May God b ring safety and healing to both of them and conviction and reformation to her husband.
I think that as long as we are prayerfully responding to what others post we can be used by God in discussions, knowing that there is a wider audience here than just those who post whom we do not know about their maturity, newness to faith, or knowledge of the subjects under discussion. So, I think it is good to offer an alternative view than the one presented for the sake of these who may be undecided, confused, or taken in by false ideas, legalism, and half-truths. We wrestle with Scriptures together, and thus the Spirit brings clarity to us who participate in discussion as well as attempting to present ones viewpoint without resorting to personal attacks, defamation, and insensitive remarks. I endeavor to converse in such a manner, but knowing that I make mistakes and fall short at times, I want to also sense the lead of the Spirit as to when to exit a conversation for the sake of all involved either posters or listeners.
Any way we look at it, we can hope that God's wonderful Spirit in us will help us be discerning, compassionate, and flexible enough to hear what another has to say with honest consideration and thoughtful acknowledgement of what aligns with Scripture properly in another's explanation of their views, and spiritual understanding of what is not properly truth.
As most proclaiming Christ know Matthew 28:19 states:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
As to the definition of a disciple; that would be an interesting topic for those more familiar with the meaning of the original language. It certainly involves being a follower of those with true teachings; and is a group activity. Such should be the case in regard to evangelism; but from my experience it is often lacking. There is often inconsistency if group efforts to evangelize whether on the street or in a retirement community so that the routine relationships and the time spent and frequency of appearance for the recipients of the message discourages building deep and long lasting relationships. Such relationships are the basis for further instruction of doctrines from those in church leadership. It is admittedly hard when we are reaching those who are elderly or infirmed to establish a method of transportation to church; and hence it is easier when we can find those qualified to bring a service to such a location as a nursing home which I have seen with some success in the past. The same issue; of course has to be considered for those on the streets who may need special attention that may be violent or have substance abuse issues.
As believers; I have stated before that it is helpful on the streets for example to have some focusing on praying for others while others preach. We also can't undervalue prayer for the saints who are laboring as to their safety and reaching the individuals God has predetermined to meet on a particular day.
I am hopeful that funding for church missions can be more focused on activities in local communities rather than being funneled overseas in totality. If there is a disconnect between Christians fellowshipping in a building and how we to operate in evangelism going to church won't be understood properly.
My attempt at giving a scriptural response to same sex attraction.
Having personally lived with a brother that had such a lifestyle decades ago before coming to Christ has helped me gain further personal insight and experience on the subject. Such political incorrectness to those former associations and friendships in that community naturally denies those still in that lifestyle the benefit of hearing how God works to change the hearts ( Jeremiah 17:9) from wickedness to God's righteousness for those who have become true believers in Christ.
The church in general has had two responses to this issue; one which fits in increasingly with the gay community as well and the other which has some truth but has what seems to be a fundamental error. In terms of that second camp the preaching of homosexuality as a specific sin said to be an abomination instead is categorized as any other sin. Another problem is that of fitting in a life of celibacy as a whole with those who are "same sex attracted" and assuming that's enough rather than addressing the spiritual and other components that initiate such perverted desires in the first place. In tandem with that therefore we don't explain the alternative; which is a true Agape love among the brethren which is how we are to start to live the way we all are designed to do. Turning our affections on things above; of course is best implemented by seeing others do the same and once again those who used to live that way and are changed or detransitioned would be the best people who would be exemplary of that change and hence to follow. Therefore it involves not only redirecting our affections but allowing the Spirit to crucify the flesh which we all need to do as believers. The practical implications also need to be brought to light of those living deviant lifestyles as to the frequent rage and violence in such relationships; effects on children; etc. Suicide rates among the trans community is a prime example.
It has become evident lately that subjects have been picked apart and it seems some intransigence has set in with certain responses. I am concerned with this discussion and the one previously on the Trinity (or however we choose to define God's 3 fold attributes) that even though many truths and scriptures are utilized as a whole; many comments seem to be counterproductive. Usually when things drift in that direction there is less and less scriptural backing of statements and they go on what seems more like personal attacks than "iron sharpening iron" as it were.
I would guess you have noticed that trend lately as well. This actually seems to have started with the KJV only controversy before these other two subjects came up a few weeks back. One obvious conclusion that can be brought up is that whenever there is SOME truth on both sides certain individuals don't want to concede that in holding out their particular viewpoint. The other point is that as I have said many times some things we can't fully understand (predestination for example which I have brought to the forefront fairly often being one of them).
Honestly, it makes me sad. I have to question how much time to spend on this forum as it seems genuine responses where anything productive can continue to occur after a topic is brought up seem to happen less and less; as well as others besides yours truly seeming to respond to my postings. I know what you're thinking it isn't about me; although I would hope to be used by God to edify someone on occasion as it seems happened previous to these recent postings. I still am hoping that there is some sort of routine checkup of prayer requests here (which get mixed up at times with discussion forum site).
Hopefully there can be a desire from this site for people to start obeying the Great Commission as well as consistently reading scriptures and prayer. I appreciate your friendship.
God knows who are his and shall delver them who keep the truth. Long ago I belonged to a cult group that taught that there shall be animal sacrifices as before. Their reasoning was that God never errs in His commandments. It was a mismatch of so many doctrines of man. They wanted to control the minds by mind-numbing 'tarrying' meetings for the Holy Spirit Their true intent was to enforce their will- worship (Touch not, taste not and in their dress ) over their congregants by enforcing themselves as the Levites under the Order of Aaron. As a Sunday school teacher the more I began studying the word of God by myself, the scales fell of my eyes as it were, and I left their Assembly.
Shortly thereafter they sent two of their two brethren to ask me what 'speaking in tongues' meant for me, intending to say it was of devil if I were to leave them. I admitted I was mistaken and the truth has freed me. They tried to frighten by saying that I would go back to them on my knees within two years. i simply laughed them out. There are many such e false shepherds out there and it is none of our business to meddle with them. God's promises are always yea in his Son.
Earlier I placed this reply which was shoddy having written half-awake and after posting my conclusion on Is.2. It gave me a sleepless night so I first tackled what needed to be written down and this is same and cleaned up of typos
Hello Richard, The Greek word for the English perfect used in Scripture is teleiois, I believe, and it refers to :
completeness, maturity, full measure, coming to a desired end, especially in regards to christian character and knowledge of faith.
So to be perfect in most of the verses that instruct us to be perfect or perfecting of the saints is in this vein of meaning. It does not mean to be perfect in the sense that God is eternally perfect with no change whatsoever in His holiness, purity, righteousness, and justness.
Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and John were desiring for us to reach the maximum degree of Christian maturity in this life. But not everyone will reach the same degree because of such things as:
The age at which they come to faith,
The teaching and counsel they receive from those God places over them as pastors and teachers,
Their own rate of growth,
Their own personal practices of prayer, bible study, and the iron sharpening iron of Christian fellowship,
The degree to which they remove themselves from situations that pose temptation in their areas of weakness,
Their commitment to keeping godly company as opposed to spending time with people who wish to live unbelieving and sinful daily lives.
The closeness they are to their time of death as determined by God. One who came to the Lord early in life and lives a normal lifespan will have a different level of maturity than one who came to the Lord in the last decades of their life whether their life be long or short.
The influences of their upbringing, parenting, family life and adverse events such as divorce, abuse, etc. that do so much harm along with positive events that promote healthy growth and maturity.
Who they marry.
Whether they we in a cultic situation where they eventually separated from and needed to be recover from its effects.
Whether they face a life of ease or a life of difficulty or persecution.
And so many other factors. Truly, we just can't judge each other.
Instead of affirming any sinless perfection, I can say that I am living a victorious life in Christ, because His resurrected life and power works in me to will and do what the Holy Spirit leads me to do or to avoid. Only a believer will desire to obey God and endeavor to live a godly life in increasing measure. I wish I was completely sinless, but I know the depth of the sinful nature is something we often underestimate. The powers, principalities, dominions, and rulers in the spirit realm who war against us are so much stronger than we are in our present mortal, corrupted state. We need the weapons supplied from the Spirit to fight and have victory each day. It is foolish to think that we can fight against that which is outside of us, let alone the sinful fleshly nature within us on our own strength, wisdom, and will. We need to affirm that greater is He that is in us than any that are in the world, even our own sinful nature. Jesus is the one who is greater, not my "new man". And we can be thankful that God has so condescended to live within us to be our Victor, Savior, Redeemer, Deliverer, and Shelter. Praise be to God who has blessed us so when we do not deserve any of His good work in us. We are debtors to God always, and will never have need to cease thanking Him or praising Him in this life and in Eternity.
I agree that humility is the virtue needed by all believers when considering whether we can stand before God. We are not and never will be on equal footing with God in the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Even when we are glorified in the resurrection, we will still be a creature made by God, graciously adopted as a child of God through the new birth. But we are not natural children of God. We do not have a divine nature as some who believe in sinless perfection say that we acquire in the new birth. We will always have a human nature in this life and the next. The difference being in this life, this body of death, the life we have affected by a sinful nature that has been spiritually reborn, a "new creation" fitted to serve God in faith, devotion, and love, continues to be affected by sin in this world and in our sinful flesh. We are still corrupted by sin in this life. This is why we age, get ill, and die. But when glorified, we will no longer have this mortal body that can die again with its corruption and sinful nature. That is all left in the grave. We will put on the incorruptible immortal nature that is from above. not of earth. We will no longer be tempted by sin, for sin will be completely defeated and relegated to the lake of fire with the devil and his angels, and all unbelievers, and death, the final enemy that comes from the condemnation of sin in man,
As a life long believer, I can look back and see how much I have grown in grace, holiness, and knowledge in and of Jesus Christ. I can remember the sinful ways I acted along the way to today. I have been gradually sanctified and have been able to overcome sin more victoriously the longer I walk with God. And yet, I know the need to put to death the sinful nature daily, to refuse to let it hold reign over me because I belong to Jesus and He is my strength. righteousness, and salvation. I think this is the experience of most believers who walk long with the Lord. cont.
The forums I have read with this topic being discussed have shown that those who hold this position are inflexible about considering any other possible interpretation of Scripture than that which they hold to. They seem to be quite prideful and almost Phariseeical in reaffirming their sinlessness over and over again and accusing those who do not believe as they do as being advocates for sinning in believers (antinomianism) which is not what I believe nor most people who admit that we war against the sinful nature and, even though at times we fail and sin, we continue the fight against sin and rely on the power of God to strengthen us, sanctify us, and consecrate us to God more and more until we reach the resurrection or the return of Christ.
Thanks for your responses. I respect how you can help me in my understanding.
I wanted to get back to you a bit on this topic. Perhaps you have some knowledge of this teaching that you can help me understand.
This teaching seems to teach that when we come to repentance and surrender to Jesus we will no longer be able to sin.
They teach that sin their is no sin in Christ and we are in Christ, no one who sins is in Christ.
They teach that the "old man" was crucified at the cross with Jesus (which is true positionally) but in actual time we were not alive when Jesus was crucified. So, it seems to me that Jesus death was efficacious for all time and when we come to faith in Him we can know that He made us a new creation spiritually. But we still have this corrupted self and nature, which was crucified with Christ so that it has lost its power to enslave us in sin. We can walk in newness of life and can resist temptation by the power of grace.
They say that anyone who claims to be a believer who sins is not saved and a false Christian.
They say that sinless perfection makes us righteous and holy like Jesus was in His earthly life.
They say that since our sinful nature is dead, it no longer affects us in any way.
They say that only those who do not sin anymore will enter heaven.
I am sure I will find out more of what some teachers of sinless perfection teach as I study it more. While many of the Scriptures they cite speak about living free from sin, they ignore so many other Scriptures that tells us to fight against the sinful nature because it wars against the Spirit in us and those Scriptures that say that we have not attained perfection and our bodies have not received the redemption promised in the resurrection when we will be made incorruptible and unable to sin anymore like Jesus.
I was hoping you may be able to give some clarity on this. I am not sure if it is worthwhile to refute this doctrine with someone who believes it because of what I have read on other forums on this topic. Cont.
Holy God bring Danny comfort and peace during this time that is so trying. Help Jean as she attends to Danny whom she loves so much. Prepare each of them for what lies ahead and cause them to know Your love, grace, and power in this time.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come to You in the name of Jesus for the sake of Mark, our brother. Be gracious to him and provide him with adequate employment to meet his financial needs. Protect Mark from poverty and lack of daily needs. Deliver to Mark an upswing in his life situation that brings everything he needs to live day by day. Bless him abundantly in all ways. We trust You to supply Mark with what is needed. Amen.
Heavenly Father, Matthew is facing opposition in his family because he is following after You. We ask that You strengthen Matthew to be give himself over to You for Your glory and love You more than his own life or his family and their approval.
Help all of us walk the way You call us to walk and seek righteousness in our inward parts through the cleansing work and power of the Holy Spirit and Your word. We ask that we agree with the Spirit that the blood of Jesus washes us clean and empowers us to live holy lives in this sinful and wicked world. Set us all apart from the ways of the world for Your glory. Give us boldness, courage, and conviction to pursue the life You call us into as followers of Jesus and children according to Your promises.
Keep us from falling into sin and ways that lead us into temptation. Deliver us from all evil. Thank You for all the gracious gifts You have given to us according to Your grace and mercy and love. Keep us in the way eternal, forever and ever. Amen.
Hello Rick, I will keep your niece in prayer until you report back to us after her surgery for an update. Thanks for informing us of her need for prayer, healing, and successful surgery.
I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."(Is.42:8)
Coming back to Isaiah we have the glory of God expressed in terms of the Law, which is the truth. I am the truth". So we need look at the truth expressing 'that God may be all in all" fulfills the ministry of Reconciliation by Jesus Christ. "Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.:(Is.8:18). So the clause in v.2 "and all nations shall flow unto it" is to be understood as referring to the Throne of God and of the Lamb.
"Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made/And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not." Here we have judgment about to visit Israel as we have in our times culture wars and super rich treating themselves as cream floating in the cauldron. "this city is the caldron, and we be the flesh." (Ez.11:3). Those who makes idols of men take glory in the worthless " and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth./Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?"(Is.2:21-22)
Those who do not abide in Christ as many branches to the true vine may say they are justified and saved by faith. But their glory is in their idols. God is not fooled by their professions when they glory in their worthless gods and not in the true God. "And theLordalone shall be exalted in that day./And the idols he shall utterly abolish." (vv.17-18)
"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem."(v.1)
The prophet tells us specifically that the word concerns Judah and Jerusalem. Nevertheless we do not take it at face value. The Spirit invites us to compare spiritual with spiritual. Let us compare the first chapter and it says itis a vision a burden. ("The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz"-Is.1:1) It is similar with the Revelation, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, ...and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." (Re.1:1)The messages to the seven churches is of the same value as the vision of Isaiah and in chapter what Isaiah says in the key verse is equivalent to this verse "I, John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation.(1:9) Thus God places a burden on Isaiah which by repeating in the next chapter places it as the testimony of Jesus Christ,- ("Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ,-1:2) The key verse is the testimony of the Son.
We have also another example in the book of Daniel. Compare the v.1 from ch.7 and ch.8. One is from the Father and the second is from the Son, and the tag Three tells it all. "In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first." (Dan.8:1) Literal meanings give us only in part and it is not the truth. "In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon" in 7:1 was not for the sake of glorifying the king of Babylon but to tells us from his authority came from. The Spirit has warned of the glory factor in the God document. "
I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."(Is.42:8)
Coming back to Isaiah we have the glory of God expressed in terms of the Law, which is the truth. I am the truth". So we need look at the truth expressing 'that God may be all in all."
"And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of theLord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth." (Is.2:19)
We saw an earlier instance where the verse 11, from Isaiah Ch.2 being repeated in v.16. These are not left in the narrative by any accident but the Spirit warns us to heed the Law from Zion is indeed from God the Father as the word going forth from Jerusalem is from the Son. So Jerusalem and Zion as alienated to the nation of Israel for pride and violence is a lie perpetuated by the Synagogue of Satan. How often Bible scholar by approaching the passage literally weaken the force of the Spirit's thrust? God's Will is clear and his Holiness shall not be treated glibly with doctrine's of man. Ministry of reconciliation of the Son having completed on earth must leave the sinner of Zion to their own devices till the terror of the Lord strike them and they turn to Him. In that day a fountain shall be opened for their cleansing. Let the sinner beware is the focus here.
God gave them a glory of 'his back parts' so setting Moses in the cleft (Ex.33:21-23)was one such hint. In Re.6 :12-17 we have the wrath of the Lamb is mentioned here specifically.
"Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him./As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God./But let the righteous be g"lad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice. ( Ps. 68:1-3)
"The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"(Is.33:14) Jesus warns the church, "and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."(Re.2:9)
The Spirit by repeating the verse 11 is setting the authority of his Son. The Lamb slain as an emblem was a sign of the everlasting covenant in the divine Will of God. The Throne of god and of the Lamb now inaugurated is a proof that the ministry of reconciliation fulfilled the terms of the covenant so the Law has a body and God is all in all. This is only one part.
"And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low." This haughtiness of men caused the law of sin abound. This law along with Satan the father of lies has to be done with as the Son conquered death. This was epitomized by the prayers of saints."And golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." This was in safekeeping of the Father. This explains why we have in this chapter the same verse repeated in v.17 from two stand points of the Father-Son relationship.
Opening of seven seals presents us the four riders of which the first rider ("and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer,"-Re.6:2) we meet again in Ch.19. The armies that followed the Word of god fulfills what the Lord God promised the Son."The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool./The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."(Ps.110:1-2).Wars pandemics, famines are all perpetuated by the haughtiness of men, so the the son of perdition, the beast shall appear again and again. At these are marked by one characteristic:"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." (Re.13:5-6).Even so the beast and the false prophet are consigned to the lake of fire. (Re.19:20). Thereafter hell and death which only tells that law of sin has been done with.
"The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day."
In continuation with the passage of Is.2:1-4 which is when the last enemy death has been finally put down, there shall be no more death. The emblem of the slain Lamb reveals the Lamb having a throne, a body which is called New Jerusalem. The word forever settled in the heaven is the Law, superseding all other laws.
In the last days we have the Law going forth from Zion 'and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." What does it mean where god is all in all? The answer is given in this clause, "and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day." It is the glory of the body which is New Jerusalem.John annotates the passage of Isaiah, "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it./ And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof./And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it:"(Re.21:22-24)
One peculiar feature is that the key verse is repeated again word for word in v.17. The Spirit is referring to the Lamb who was prevailed to open the book bound with sven seals. "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth./And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."(Re.5:5-8) Here the 24 elders worship him. " the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." They were memorial of the body prepared before for the Son and they carried the prayers. Do the prayers of saints go unanswered? Oh no!
"For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."
In the last days there comes a point when wars shall cease. The psalmist says of death,"O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them."(Ps.9:6) Death is the last enemy which has been finally put down, and it is of life, "I am the Life" aspect that Prophet Isaiah here speaks about.
"But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment." Ps.9:7).
In the light of this we need look at the Throne of God and of the Lamb as the focus here.(Re.22:1)
After death has been overcome the emblem of the slain Lamb before the foundation of the world (Re.13:8)is replaced by the word of the Lord. Jerusalem is no longer if the old but the body of the Lamb himself. God all in all. In short the passage from Isaiah quoted above has to be set alongside this verse, "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."(1 Co.15:28). There is no more schism of the Father Son entities where, the Father signifying divine Will and the Son as the fulfillment of his eternal Mind have been forever reconciled. Thus the Ministry of Jesus Christ has thus concluded.
Zion mentioned as the stone (Is.28:16) has become a mountain and it resonates the King's dream as interpreted by Daniel to which we shall come in another post. Similarly the stone refers to this event, "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."(Re.18:21)
I have read some of the teachings of some preachers of sinless perfection or complete sanctification.
Some of what they say is truly appalling. Here are some of these false teachings.
1) If one reaches sinless perfection and then sins they will lose their salvation. (This is senseless. If one is perfectly sinless, then they would be unable to sin, so why would a preacher say that one who has reached this state can sin?)
2) They say that the blood of Jesus is within us and therefore keeps us from sinning. (I do not find this teaching in the Scriptures). The cleansing blood of Jesus is a forensic action. It is done from the outside (from God) into us (the receiver). We do not have ownership of the blood of Jesus. It is always His. When we come to belief in the gospel and put our faith in Jesus, Our sins are removed and we are cleansed because He shed His blood for us once and for all.
3) They say that our sinful nature was removed from us when one reaches sinless perfection. (This is true in the resurrection, but not so as long as we are in this "body of sin". We are told to put to death the sinful nature by walking int he Spirit but Paul clearly teaches that this is an ongoing slaying of sin in our life by the power the Holy Spirit supplies. We are to put to death the sinful nature in us by walking by the Spirit. Does anyone ever completely walk by the in the Spirit 24/7? If someone has reached sinless perfection are they now unable to sin, as some say, because the old man is obliterated by the blood of Jesus? If so, temptation would not cause a struggle within them because the sinful nature is dead. Yet, they do speak of temptation being a challenge they must fight against (which is true of any believer, not just the select "elite" who believe they are in a sinless state.)
4) They say that they no longer have a sinful nature because of this complete sanctification. (Yet their bodies are still againg and deteriorating towards death.
About perfectness. I think the Bible uses this word with various meanings
1. Lets see as Richard says Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.". Now the verb "be" in grk (esesthai) is in the future tense and denotes an expectation. So what Jesus is actually saying here (as I understand it) is that He expects us to become perfect like God is. Well this is impossible, isn't it? So what He means is that He expects us to strive to be like God (in character). And how is that to be done? By following His commandments, which commandments reveal the character of God to us. And since one aspect (and probably the most important) of God's character is love Jesus asks us to love each other like God does. This is something gradual, isn't it? It is something that we keep aquiring through our whole life.
If we compare it with Hebrews 5:8,9, "8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Here Jesus iwas made perfect by obeying God's commandments.
So perfectness again here means a whole route/course that we follow in our lives during which, by following God's commandements/directions we keep growing spiritually and getting to be like God in character more and more.
2. But in Hebrews 10:14, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified", the word perfect has a different meaning. It means the one who has no sins. So we were perfected by Jesus' Blood, that is we are righteous through His sacrifice.
3. In Hebrews 11:38-40 says, "39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."
Here perfectness is something that we will aquire in Heaven when we will be dressed up with our new spiritual body, completely freed from sin, death etc
Is it more important to appease men, or more important to please God? To the church, it should be obvious what the priority is, but I think some cave to public pressure and fear they may lose funding or social status by not siding with the bullies. Some try to appease the world instead of God.
What's this bullying really about and why the huge push in recent years? They claim its their identity, they're born that way, and don't have a choice. But has anyone challenged this assumption?
What are other examples of someone born with such a high proclivity to sin that they absolutely "have no choice"? I'm not aware of any, in fact, the Bible says we always have a choice- a way out of sin. 1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV
We all have different obstacles in life; some, like Paul, had a thorn in the flesh. 2 Corinthians 12:7
I reject the assumption that some people are more "equal" than others. Equal means equal, not special protected classes and treatment. I've learned that the woke movement is now racially separating people just like they did 100 years ago, whether for hiring, or DEI classes, and who knows what else. Amazing full circle. They totally ignored everything MLK stood for.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28 KJV
The culture is ignoring this verse that we're equal.
There's no evidence anyone's identity is tied to sin so much they can't help but do that. No baby desires such things. It's learned and when opportunities present themselves. Now pedos use same arguments to excuse their horrific abuse of kids. The culture will use clever words to defend it. There's no end to the evil progression. It's a choice.
The grk for "disciple" is "mathetes". It comes from the verb "mathaino" which means "to learn". So the precise meaning of the grk for disciple is "a learner, a student, pupil". In the ancient world, the followers of the greek philosophers (from the verb "philo" which means "to love" and "sophia" which means "wisdom") were also called "mathetes". So the word had a broader meaning, it was used for those who follow/spend a long time with, and learn from somebody who played the role of a teacher. Plato, Socrates, Aristotle and many others had established academies/schools and had disciples who were learning their wisdom about the world.
I will have to evaluate my own time on this site and if and when I should respond or not. It isn't just the subject matter that worries me it is a general mindset of having to debate a subject without much scripture; or things that don't really add any meaning to an argument-at least from my vantage point. Do we really want to know the Lord better when discussions like this come up in the first place? I don't sense lately much teachability; I'd like to learn some stuff too with these debates. Nothing wrong I guess with the sometimes detailed scriptural analysis; except for the fact thought patterns and the scriptures used confuse me quite often as to how exactly they corroborate any particular concept brought up. Maybe it's just me.
I'm hoping there is some use here for those who are young in the faith who want to grow; although I can't remember the last time anyone actually expressed being anew believer here. I sense that people who have had some faith for a time are more represented; and that coming with whatever baggage associated with their own viewpoints. I sense that many have been taught a certain way and haven't really taken the time quite often to search the scriptures as Bereans. Again; there usually is a certain truth in both "camps" whether predestination vs. free will; the "Trinity" or concept of one God. Properly dividing the scriptures in context and precise meanings (or at least as close as we can get to it) is also helpful.
I don't know maybe I am hypocritical; I thought I was trying to give an open minded presentation in regard to the aforementioned factors; but perhaps not. I hope to hear from you on your thoughts about emphasizing daily scripture reading and prayer as well as fulfillment of the commandment of the Great Commission as to how this site can prompt participants in that way.
I think that as long as we are prayerfully responding to what others post we can be used by God in discussions, knowing that there is a wider audience here than just those who post whom we do not know about their maturity, newness to faith, or knowledge of the subjects under discussion. So, I think it is good to offer an alternative view than the one presented for the sake of these who may be undecided, confused, or taken in by false ideas, legalism, and half-truths. We wrestle with Scriptures together, and thus the Spirit brings clarity to us who participate in discussion as well as attempting to present ones viewpoint without resorting to personal attacks, defamation, and insensitive remarks. I endeavor to converse in such a manner, but knowing that I make mistakes and fall short at times, I want to also sense the lead of the Spirit as to when to exit a conversation for the sake of all involved either posters or listeners.
Any way we look at it, we can hope that God's wonderful Spirit in us will help us be discerning, compassionate, and flexible enough to hear what another has to say with honest consideration and thoughtful acknowledgement of what aligns with Scripture properly in another's explanation of their views, and spiritual understanding of what is not properly truth.
As most proclaiming Christ know Matthew 28:19 states:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
As to the definition of a disciple; that would be an interesting topic for those more familiar with the meaning of the original language. It certainly involves being a follower of those with true teachings; and is a group activity. Such should be the case in regard to evangelism; but from my experience it is often lacking. There is often inconsistency if group efforts to evangelize whether on the street or in a retirement community so that the routine relationships and the time spent and frequency of appearance for the recipients of the message discourages building deep and long lasting relationships. Such relationships are the basis for further instruction of doctrines from those in church leadership. It is admittedly hard when we are reaching those who are elderly or infirmed to establish a method of transportation to church; and hence it is easier when we can find those qualified to bring a service to such a location as a nursing home which I have seen with some success in the past. The same issue; of course has to be considered for those on the streets who may need special attention that may be violent or have substance abuse issues.
As believers; I have stated before that it is helpful on the streets for example to have some focusing on praying for others while others preach. We also can't undervalue prayer for the saints who are laboring as to their safety and reaching the individuals God has predetermined to meet on a particular day.
I am hopeful that funding for church missions can be more focused on activities in local communities rather than being funneled overseas in totality. If there is a disconnect between Christians fellowshipping in a building and how we to operate in evangelism going to church won't be understood properly.
Having personally lived with a brother that had such a lifestyle decades ago before coming to Christ has helped me gain further personal insight and experience on the subject. Such political incorrectness to those former associations and friendships in that community naturally denies those still in that lifestyle the benefit of hearing how God works to change the hearts ( Jeremiah 17:9) from wickedness to God's righteousness for those who have become true believers in Christ.
The church in general has had two responses to this issue; one which fits in increasingly with the gay community as well and the other which has some truth but has what seems to be a fundamental error. In terms of that second camp the preaching of homosexuality as a specific sin said to be an abomination instead is categorized as any other sin. Another problem is that of fitting in a life of celibacy as a whole with those who are "same sex attracted" and assuming that's enough rather than addressing the spiritual and other components that initiate such perverted desires in the first place. In tandem with that therefore we don't explain the alternative; which is a true Agape love among the brethren which is how we are to start to live the way we all are designed to do. Turning our affections on things above; of course is best implemented by seeing others do the same and once again those who used to live that way and are changed or detransitioned would be the best people who would be exemplary of that change and hence to follow. Therefore it involves not only redirecting our affections but allowing the Spirit to crucify the flesh which we all need to do as believers. The practical implications also need to be brought to light of those living deviant lifestyles as to the frequent rage and violence in such relationships; effects on children; etc. Suicide rates among the trans community is a prime example.
It has become evident lately that subjects have been picked apart and it seems some intransigence has set in with certain responses. I am concerned with this discussion and the one previously on the Trinity (or however we choose to define God's 3 fold attributes) that even though many truths and scriptures are utilized as a whole; many comments seem to be counterproductive. Usually when things drift in that direction there is less and less scriptural backing of statements and they go on what seems more like personal attacks than "iron sharpening iron" as it were.
I would guess you have noticed that trend lately as well. This actually seems to have started with the KJV only controversy before these other two subjects came up a few weeks back. One obvious conclusion that can be brought up is that whenever there is SOME truth on both sides certain individuals don't want to concede that in holding out their particular viewpoint. The other point is that as I have said many times some things we can't fully understand (predestination for example which I have brought to the forefront fairly often being one of them).
Honestly, it makes me sad. I have to question how much time to spend on this forum as it seems genuine responses where anything productive can continue to occur after a topic is brought up seem to happen less and less; as well as others besides yours truly seeming to respond to my postings. I know what you're thinking it isn't about me; although I would hope to be used by God to edify someone on occasion as it seems happened previous to these recent postings. I still am hoping that there is some sort of routine checkup of prayer requests here (which get mixed up at times with discussion forum site).
Hopefully there can be a desire from this site for people to start obeying the Great Commission as well as consistently reading scriptures and prayer. I appreciate your friendship.
Agape.
God knows who are his and shall delver them who keep the truth. Long ago I belonged to a cult group that taught that there shall be animal sacrifices as before. Their reasoning was that God never errs in His commandments. It was a mismatch of so many doctrines of man. They wanted to control the minds by mind-numbing 'tarrying' meetings for the Holy Spirit Their true intent was to enforce their will- worship (Touch not, taste not and in their dress ) over their congregants by enforcing themselves as the Levites under the Order of Aaron. As a Sunday school teacher the more I began studying the word of God by myself, the scales fell of my eyes as it were, and I left their Assembly.
Shortly thereafter they sent two of their two brethren to ask me what 'speaking in tongues' meant for me, intending to say it was of devil if I were to leave them. I admitted I was mistaken and the truth has freed me. They tried to frighten by saying that I would go back to them on my knees within two years. i simply laughed them out. There are many such e false shepherds out there and it is none of our business to meddle with them. God's promises are always yea in his Son.
Earlier I placed this reply which was shoddy having written half-awake and after posting my conclusion on Is.2. It gave me a sleepless night so I first tackled what needed to be written down and this is same and cleaned up of typos
I continue to pray for you and your wife. It is such a painful and discouraging way to live. I am sorry your life together is this way.
completeness, maturity, full measure, coming to a desired end, especially in regards to christian character and knowledge of faith.
So to be perfect in most of the verses that instruct us to be perfect or perfecting of the saints is in this vein of meaning. It does not mean to be perfect in the sense that God is eternally perfect with no change whatsoever in His holiness, purity, righteousness, and justness.
Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and John were desiring for us to reach the maximum degree of Christian maturity in this life. But not everyone will reach the same degree because of such things as:
The age at which they come to faith,
The teaching and counsel they receive from those God places over them as pastors and teachers,
Their own rate of growth,
Their own personal practices of prayer, bible study, and the iron sharpening iron of Christian fellowship,
The degree to which they remove themselves from situations that pose temptation in their areas of weakness,
Their commitment to keeping godly company as opposed to spending time with people who wish to live unbelieving and sinful daily lives.
The closeness they are to their time of death as determined by God. One who came to the Lord early in life and lives a normal lifespan will have a different level of maturity than one who came to the Lord in the last decades of their life whether their life be long or short.
The influences of their upbringing, parenting, family life and adverse events such as divorce, abuse, etc. that do so much harm along with positive events that promote healthy growth and maturity.
Who they marry.
Whether they we in a cultic situation where they eventually separated from and needed to be recover from its effects.
Whether they face a life of ease or a life of difficulty or persecution.
And so many other factors. Truly, we just can't judge each other.
Instead of affirming any sinless perfection, I can say that I am living a victorious life in Christ, because His resurrected life and power works in me to will and do what the Holy Spirit leads me to do or to avoid. Only a believer will desire to obey God and endeavor to live a godly life in increasing measure. I wish I was completely sinless, but I know the depth of the sinful nature is something we often underestimate. The powers, principalities, dominions, and rulers in the spirit realm who war against us are so much stronger than we are in our present mortal, corrupted state. We need the weapons supplied from the Spirit to fight and have victory each day. It is foolish to think that we can fight against that which is outside of us, let alone the sinful fleshly nature within us on our own strength, wisdom, and will. We need to affirm that greater is He that is in us than any that are in the world, even our own sinful nature. Jesus is the one who is greater, not my "new man". And we can be thankful that God has so condescended to live within us to be our Victor, Savior, Redeemer, Deliverer, and Shelter. Praise be to God who has blessed us so when we do not deserve any of His good work in us. We are debtors to God always, and will never have need to cease thanking Him or praising Him in this life and in Eternity.
I agree that humility is the virtue needed by all believers when considering whether we can stand before God. We are not and never will be on equal footing with God in the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Even when we are glorified in the resurrection, we will still be a creature made by God, graciously adopted as a child of God through the new birth. But we are not natural children of God. We do not have a divine nature as some who believe in sinless perfection say that we acquire in the new birth. We will always have a human nature in this life and the next. The difference being in this life, this body of death, the life we have affected by a sinful nature that has been spiritually reborn, a "new creation" fitted to serve God in faith, devotion, and love, continues to be affected by sin in this world and in our sinful flesh. We are still corrupted by sin in this life. This is why we age, get ill, and die. But when glorified, we will no longer have this mortal body that can die again with its corruption and sinful nature. That is all left in the grave. We will put on the incorruptible immortal nature that is from above. not of earth. We will no longer be tempted by sin, for sin will be completely defeated and relegated to the lake of fire with the devil and his angels, and all unbelievers, and death, the final enemy that comes from the condemnation of sin in man,
As a life long believer, I can look back and see how much I have grown in grace, holiness, and knowledge in and of Jesus Christ. I can remember the sinful ways I acted along the way to today. I have been gradually sanctified and have been able to overcome sin more victoriously the longer I walk with God. And yet, I know the need to put to death the sinful nature daily, to refuse to let it hold reign over me because I belong to Jesus and He is my strength. righteousness, and salvation. I think this is the experience of most believers who walk long with the Lord. cont.
Sinless Perfection continued.
The forums I have read with this topic being discussed have shown that those who hold this position are inflexible about considering any other possible interpretation of Scripture than that which they hold to. They seem to be quite prideful and almost Phariseeical in reaffirming their sinlessness over and over again and accusing those who do not believe as they do as being advocates for sinning in believers (antinomianism) which is not what I believe nor most people who admit that we war against the sinful nature and, even though at times we fail and sin, we continue the fight against sin and rely on the power of God to strengthen us, sanctify us, and consecrate us to God more and more until we reach the resurrection or the return of Christ.
Thanks for your responses. I respect how you can help me in my understanding.
I wanted to get back to you a bit on this topic. Perhaps you have some knowledge of this teaching that you can help me understand.
This teaching seems to teach that when we come to repentance and surrender to Jesus we will no longer be able to sin.
They teach that sin their is no sin in Christ and we are in Christ, no one who sins is in Christ.
They teach that the "old man" was crucified at the cross with Jesus (which is true positionally) but in actual time we were not alive when Jesus was crucified. So, it seems to me that Jesus death was efficacious for all time and when we come to faith in Him we can know that He made us a new creation spiritually. But we still have this corrupted self and nature, which was crucified with Christ so that it has lost its power to enslave us in sin. We can walk in newness of life and can resist temptation by the power of grace.
They say that anyone who claims to be a believer who sins is not saved and a false Christian.
They say that sinless perfection makes us righteous and holy like Jesus was in His earthly life.
They say that since our sinful nature is dead, it no longer affects us in any way.
They say that only those who do not sin anymore will enter heaven.
I am sure I will find out more of what some teachers of sinless perfection teach as I study it more. While many of the Scriptures they cite speak about living free from sin, they ignore so many other Scriptures that tells us to fight against the sinful nature because it wars against the Spirit in us and those Scriptures that say that we have not attained perfection and our bodies have not received the redemption promised in the resurrection when we will be made incorruptible and unable to sin anymore like Jesus.
I was hoping you may be able to give some clarity on this. I am not sure if it is worthwhile to refute this doctrine with someone who believes it because of what I have read on other forums on this topic. Cont.
I will be praying for Danny and Jean.
Holy God bring Danny comfort and peace during this time that is so trying. Help Jean as she attends to Danny whom she loves so much. Prepare each of them for what lies ahead and cause them to know Your love, grace, and power in this time.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come to You in the name of Jesus for the sake of Mark, our brother. Be gracious to him and provide him with adequate employment to meet his financial needs. Protect Mark from poverty and lack of daily needs. Deliver to Mark an upswing in his life situation that brings everything he needs to live day by day. Bless him abundantly in all ways. We trust You to supply Mark with what is needed. Amen.
I will ray for you.
Heavenly Father, Matthew is facing opposition in his family because he is following after You. We ask that You strengthen Matthew to be give himself over to You for Your glory and love You more than his own life or his family and their approval.
Help all of us walk the way You call us to walk and seek righteousness in our inward parts through the cleansing work and power of the Holy Spirit and Your word. We ask that we agree with the Spirit that the blood of Jesus washes us clean and empowers us to live holy lives in this sinful and wicked world. Set us all apart from the ways of the world for Your glory. Give us boldness, courage, and conviction to pursue the life You call us into as followers of Jesus and children according to Your promises.
Keep us from falling into sin and ways that lead us into temptation. Deliver us from all evil. Thank You for all the gracious gifts You have given to us according to Your grace and mercy and love. Keep us in the way eternal, forever and ever. Amen.
(Continued from the previous post)
I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."(Is.42:8)
Coming back to Isaiah we have the glory of God expressed in terms of the Law, which is the truth. I am the truth". So we need look at the truth expressing 'that God may be all in all" fulfills the ministry of Reconciliation by Jesus Christ. "Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.:(Is.8:18). So the clause in v.2 "and all nations shall flow unto it" is to be understood as referring to the Throne of God and of the Lamb.
"Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made/And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not." Here we have judgment about to visit Israel as we have in our times culture wars and super rich treating themselves as cream floating in the cauldron. "this city is the caldron, and we be the flesh." (Ez.11:3). Those who makes idols of men take glory in the worthless " and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth./Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?"(Is.2:21-22)
Those who do not abide in Christ as many branches to the true vine may say they are justified and saved by faith. But their glory is in their idols. God is not fooled by their professions when they glory in their worthless gods and not in the true God. "And theLordalone shall be exalted in that day./And the idols he shall utterly abolish." (vv.17-18)
"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem."(v.1)
The prophet tells us specifically that the word concerns Judah and Jerusalem. Nevertheless we do not take it at face value. The Spirit invites us to compare spiritual with spiritual. Let us compare the first chapter and it says itis a vision a burden. ("The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz"-Is.1:1) It is similar with the Revelation, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, ...and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." (Re.1:1)The messages to the seven churches is of the same value as the vision of Isaiah and in chapter what Isaiah says in the key verse is equivalent to this verse "I, John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation.(1:9) Thus God places a burden on Isaiah which by repeating in the next chapter places it as the testimony of Jesus Christ,- ("Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ,-1:2) The key verse is the testimony of the Son.
We have also another example in the book of Daniel. Compare the v.1 from ch.7 and ch.8. One is from the Father and the second is from the Son, and the tag Three tells it all. "In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first." (Dan.8:1) Literal meanings give us only in part and it is not the truth. "In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon" in 7:1 was not for the sake of glorifying the king of Babylon but to tells us from his authority came from. The Spirit has warned of the glory factor in the God document. "
I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."(Is.42:8)
Coming back to Isaiah we have the glory of God expressed in terms of the Law, which is the truth. I am the truth". So we need look at the truth expressing 'that God may be all in all."
"And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of theLord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth." (Is.2:19)
We saw an earlier instance where the verse 11, from Isaiah Ch.2 being repeated in v.16. These are not left in the narrative by any accident but the Spirit warns us to heed the Law from Zion is indeed from God the Father as the word going forth from Jerusalem is from the Son. So Jerusalem and Zion as alienated to the nation of Israel for pride and violence is a lie perpetuated by the Synagogue of Satan. How often Bible scholar by approaching the passage literally weaken the force of the Spirit's thrust? God's Will is clear and his Holiness shall not be treated glibly with doctrine's of man. Ministry of reconciliation of the Son having completed on earth must leave the sinner of Zion to their own devices till the terror of the Lord strike them and they turn to Him. In that day a fountain shall be opened for their cleansing. Let the sinner beware is the focus here.
God gave them a glory of 'his back parts' so setting Moses in the cleft (Ex.33:21-23)was one such hint. In Re.6 :12-17 we have the wrath of the Lamb is mentioned here specifically.
"Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him./As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God./But let the righteous be g"lad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice. ( Ps. 68:1-3)
"The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"(Is.33:14) Jesus warns the church, "and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."(Re.2:9)
The Spirit by repeating the verse 11 is setting the authority of his Son. The Lamb slain as an emblem was a sign of the everlasting covenant in the divine Will of God. The Throne of god and of the Lamb now inaugurated is a proof that the ministry of reconciliation fulfilled the terms of the covenant so the Law has a body and God is all in all. This is only one part.
"And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low." This haughtiness of men caused the law of sin abound. This law along with Satan the father of lies has to be done with as the Son conquered death. This was epitomized by the prayers of saints."And golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." This was in safekeeping of the Father. This explains why we have in this chapter the same verse repeated in v.17 from two stand points of the Father-Son relationship.
Opening of seven seals presents us the four riders of which the first rider ("and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer,"-Re.6:2) we meet again in Ch.19. The armies that followed the Word of god fulfills what the Lord God promised the Son."The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool./The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."(Ps.110:1-2).Wars pandemics, famines are all perpetuated by the haughtiness of men, so the the son of perdition, the beast shall appear again and again. At these are marked by one characteristic:"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." (Re.13:5-6).Even so the beast and the false prophet are consigned to the lake of fire. (Re.19:20). Thereafter hell and death which only tells that law of sin has been done with.
"The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day."
In continuation with the passage of Is.2:1-4 which is when the last enemy death has been finally put down, there shall be no more death. The emblem of the slain Lamb reveals the Lamb having a throne, a body which is called New Jerusalem. The word forever settled in the heaven is the Law, superseding all other laws.
In the last days we have the Law going forth from Zion 'and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." What does it mean where god is all in all? The answer is given in this clause, "and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day." It is the glory of the body which is New Jerusalem.John annotates the passage of Isaiah, "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it./ And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof./And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it:"(Re.21:22-24)
One peculiar feature is that the key verse is repeated again word for word in v.17. The Spirit is referring to the Lamb who was prevailed to open the book bound with sven seals. "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth./And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."(Re.5:5-8) Here the 24 elders worship him. " the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." They were memorial of the body prepared before for the Son and they carried the prayers. Do the prayers of saints go unanswered? Oh no!
"For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."
In the last days there comes a point when wars shall cease. The psalmist says of death,"O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them."(Ps.9:6) Death is the last enemy which has been finally put down, and it is of life, "I am the Life" aspect that Prophet Isaiah here speaks about.
"But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment." Ps.9:7).
In the light of this we need look at the Throne of God and of the Lamb as the focus here.(Re.22:1)
After death has been overcome the emblem of the slain Lamb before the foundation of the world (Re.13:8)is replaced by the word of the Lord. Jerusalem is no longer if the old but the body of the Lamb himself. God all in all. In short the passage from Isaiah quoted above has to be set alongside this verse, "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."(1 Co.15:28). There is no more schism of the Father Son entities where, the Father signifying divine Will and the Son as the fulfillment of his eternal Mind have been forever reconciled. Thus the Ministry of Jesus Christ has thus concluded.
Zion mentioned as the stone (Is.28:16) has become a mountain and it resonates the King's dream as interpreted by Daniel to which we shall come in another post. Similarly the stone refers to this event, "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."(Re.18:21)
I will get back to you later. The workers are here to do more work on our home repairs. I hope your day goes very well.
I have read some of the teachings of some preachers of sinless perfection or complete sanctification.
Some of what they say is truly appalling. Here are some of these false teachings.
1) If one reaches sinless perfection and then sins they will lose their salvation. (This is senseless. If one is perfectly sinless, then they would be unable to sin, so why would a preacher say that one who has reached this state can sin?)
2) They say that the blood of Jesus is within us and therefore keeps us from sinning. (I do not find this teaching in the Scriptures). The cleansing blood of Jesus is a forensic action. It is done from the outside (from God) into us (the receiver). We do not have ownership of the blood of Jesus. It is always His. When we come to belief in the gospel and put our faith in Jesus, Our sins are removed and we are cleansed because He shed His blood for us once and for all.
3) They say that our sinful nature was removed from us when one reaches sinless perfection. (This is true in the resurrection, but not so as long as we are in this "body of sin". We are told to put to death the sinful nature by walking int he Spirit but Paul clearly teaches that this is an ongoing slaying of sin in our life by the power the Holy Spirit supplies. We are to put to death the sinful nature in us by walking by the Spirit. Does anyone ever completely walk by the in the Spirit 24/7? If someone has reached sinless perfection are they now unable to sin, as some say, because the old man is obliterated by the blood of Jesus? If so, temptation would not cause a struggle within them because the sinful nature is dead. Yet, they do speak of temptation being a challenge they must fight against (which is true of any believer, not just the select "elite" who believe they are in a sinless state.)
4) They say that they no longer have a sinful nature because of this complete sanctification. (Yet their bodies are still againg and deteriorating towards death.