Bible Questions & Discussion PAGE 14

  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hello Jaz,

    I base my thoughts on the how God saves infants and children on what Jesus said about infants and children in the Gospels. He is clear that we are to have childlike faith as those children who we brought to Him did. So, He is saying that infants and children can have true faith and be saved by Him. I don't think it is an allegory, parable or metaphor because the event of the children being brought to Him (recounted by two gospel writers, whether one event told twice or two separate events) occurred and Jesus was speaking to the disciples concerning their reaction towards the children pointing out that it differs markedly from His desire.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    S. Spencer,

    I delight in that God elected me and caused me to be saved. I do not think of this as being a robot or that my free will was violated because my unregenerated will was depraved and corrupted by sin and under the power of the prince of the air. So unregenerated man's free will is really a captive will that is only free to rebel against God and remain that way by choice.

    But one who is regenerated by God has had their will set free from this depravity and enslavement and only then can be truly free to accept what God has already done in them, being given the ability to believe by grace alone. After regeneration, one can use this truly free will to respond affirmatively to the salvation that has ALREADY happened in Jesus on the cross. We can agree with God that He has saved us by His mercy and grace poured out on us because He poured out His wrath and judgment on our sin in Hm on the Cross.

    I would also never speak to an unbeliever about predestination, election, and Romans 9. We are to share the Gospel with those God brings to us with grace and compassion, hoping that God will bring them to salvation through the hearing of the Gospel presented with kindness and pleadingly. We can trust that God will accomplish His sovereign will in each and everyone we share the Gospel with, whether His will is for the person to have been elected to salvation or not. We also can admit to the mystery of this aspect of God's sovereignty because believers would choose for every person to be saved, but God has chosen differently than we would and we must learn to be comfortable with Him in this sovereign exercise of His perfect and holy will

    I know that we will continue to differ on this topic.

    And I do appreciate your responses and queries, but I will say again, you do come across as being a bit adverse towards me in your wording. I know that you don't mean to be this way. WE have had enough disagreements for me to know this of you. We can always talk things out here.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hello again S. Spencer.

    I do not hold to limited atonement because I believe that the Sacrifice of Jesus sufficient for all and that the Person of Jesus, as God in the flesh s of infinite worth to be our substitute to atone for each and every human. He is the Father's most precious and beloved Son and the Father gave Him as the most valuable one to be sacrificed on behalf of humanity. So in this sense, God desires everyone to be saved because the person and the sacrifice are all-sufficient. But we know that ALL are not saved, so is God unable to save everyone, NO. But in His wisdom and ultimate aim for creating any beings is to take from within humanity a people sanctified for Himself that He has made holy and perfect in the resurrection for eternity. So His ultimate will is that not all will be elected and those who are not elected will NEVER seek God, honor Him as God alone, care to find out and believe the truth of Who He is. They will remain dead in sin, enemies of God, vessels of wrath, separated from God, and at enmity with God forever.

    This aspect of God's sovereignty is really disturbing to most believers because we tend to divide God's character and nature into parts such as love, mercy, justice, wrath, etc and think that He can forego the glory of one attribute for another. But that is not true of Him (as I understand Him)

    I know that people often ask and have done so on here: where does human free will come in in salvation? The Bible is clear that unregenerate man CANNOT choose to believe in Jesus, ask to be saved, seek after God, nor repent. I could list many Scriptures here but I hope to do so in another thread. So, many are uncomfortable with the thought that God elects and effectually calls and saves those HE predestined monergistically. My thought and with Joy is that I know that without God's work of bringing me to salvation, my free will is IMPOTENT to do what only God can do and is enslaved to sin before God regenerated me all by Himself.
  • GiGi - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hello S. Spencer,

    to respond to your queries. When I was 3 and knew I believe in Jesus, it was with childlike faith not like I grew to have as an adult where my mature mind could understand the Bible, the Gospel Message, and how I needed to be saved from being a sinful person.

    That is I believe and perhaps I did not explain it so well.

    About other children and infants, I am not saying that any of them will end up in hell. That is God's sovereign choice, and I do believe that He will be gracious and merciful to any and all children who die during this time of their life. But those who will live to an age when they can actually hear the Gospel, see their need for salvation, and turn to God, they may or may not be given regenerated as a young child, but certainly will be so given the rebirth at the time when they are old enough to be changed by God in the rebirth and given faith to believe and repent IF they are predestined to be saved.

    I hope I am being clear on this.

    I know that God is ALL of His attributes at the same time and that ALL of these attributes are fully and perfectly expressed in His divine essence for there is not change of emotion, will or degree in His Person. Since I believe this is true of God, His sovereignty will always be expressed along with His love, free will, justice, holiness, compassion without any attribute needing to be diminished in order for another attribute to be expressed.

    Romans 9 1-23 is such a classic section that addresses God's sovereign choice to be merciful and gracious to those He will be so to AND that there are some who, as vessels of wrath will spend eternity in the lake of fire as He expresses His justice to those not chosen. Again, He desires all to be saved, but also, His Sovereignty and glory is His paramount aim n creation. As Romans 9 does speak to: that those who are vessels of mercy may see the glory of His grace and mercy and all the more so when the vessels of wrath are judged to the lake of fire.
  • Shantel - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Richard H. Priday

    Angels are redeemed men, now in the kingdom of God, made ONE FLESH with Christ, the angel of God, by the death and resurrection of Christ, the angel of God's presence.

    Isaiah 63:9 And in all their (man kinds) affections, he (Christ) was afflicted, and the angel (Christ) of HIS (the father's) presence SAVED THEM: in his (the Father's) love and in his (the Father's) pity, he redeemed them (by sacrificing his son), and carried them all the days of old.

    Hebrews 1:17 ...Who maketh his angels SPIRITS, and his ministers (messengers) a flame of fire.

    1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the SPIRIT (his angels) might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    God Bless You
  • Richard H Priday - 3 weeks ago
    Similarities in God's angels and redeemed man

    The word for "angel" apparently means messenger or Pastor in Revelation 1:20; and OR it refers to an angel over a church. I tend to defer to the idea that it means both; as clearly the Spirit leaves a church where the "candlestick" is removed. That would mean whatever other angels of God were hanging out for whatever purposes ministering wouldn't be likely to stick around either except perhaps for a few individuals who hold to the faith. This gives us concern; of course with a good Pastor being removed or a bad one remaining. Oftentimes it seems a leader is good then turns rogue; particularly today.

    Revelation 19:10 states At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."

    Revelation 22:9 But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!"

    These verses along with others in the Old Testament show that angels of the Lord don't wish to be worshipped. All glory goes to God. They will normally appear as men; hence the saying in Hebrews 13:2 on entertaining angels unaware.

    Although not redeemed as man is; those angels that remained true also are about the Father's business as Jesus was and all of us are supposed to be doing. They are no doubt awesome and greater than us; but are fighting battles on our behalf in heavenly places. We see this principal in Daniel 10:13-21 with the Prince of Persia being held back for 21 days. This intersects and corresponds with the time Daniel had been praying and fasting. It shows how the great men of God would have important top ranking angels involved in these conflicts.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    David, 2/2

    But what I have said to Jaz is that for God to change us it is necessary for us to cry out to him to do that and give Him all the time and space to do it. Have you noticed that many christians do not change and remain the same over the years without becoming spiritually mature? Why do you think is that? Because they do not want to change, or they keep a part of their heart for themselves and do not submit it to God. So God stops there and starts knocking at the door of their heart until they open the door, if they ever open it. He doesn't break in. He never breaks in.

    Paul said something really great which is often misunderstood. He said in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. "

    What does Paul mean? He means that he emptied his heart of anything he himself wanted, he submitted himself totally to God and his commandments, he kept nothing for himself, he gave it all to God, he was in complete obedience. So it was like it wasn't him who lived in that body but like Jesus was living in him. Can we say the same?

    Sorry as I said I am struggling to understand what you are saying so maybe my answer is not about what you asked. So, I am sorry if I didn't cover the topic you asked.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hi David, 1/2

    I think I do not quite get what you want to say. Of course trying to obey what God commands us to do comes after new birth. No doubt about that. The New Birth and the Baptism in the Sprit are the "tools" that God provides us in our struggle against sin and for changing our sinful heart to a holy heart. This change is not done at once, it takes time. Please read 1 Cor 3:1, "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ." So when we are born again and we are babies in Christ our heart is still carnal. As we grow spiritually (and allow God to work that carnal heart) then we become spiritually mature. And this takes time.

    I don't think we disagree on this.

    But new birth can not come before faith. As Brother Chris has said if one is saved by God by being born again before hearing about Christ, what is the point in believing in Christ after that? He is already saved anyway.

    Romans 10:14-15, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

    So faith comes by hearing (the gospel) and salvation comes by calling upon the name of the Lord (of which we have been preached about)

    But maybe I haven't understood exactly what you want to say. You said, "And that we are entirely dependent upon God ALONE to change this horrible situation in our life" which means to change our heart. Yes, I agree on that.
  • Shantel - 3 weeks ago
    PROPHECY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD

    Isaiah 14:29 ...... for out of the SERPENTS ROOT (humanity) shall come froth a cockatrice, and his (the cockatrice's) FRUIT (Son's of God) shall be a FLYING FIERY SERPENT.

    Christ laid down his divine nature and took on the nature of humanity (the serpents root).

    Psalms 51:5 Behold, I (Christ) was shapen in iniquity (the serpents root),; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he that is BORN OF A WOMAN, that he should be righteous.

    Christ, as humanity DIED, unclean and unrighteous, but by the Spirit of God, was raised justified, sanctified, and glorified, and WE (humanity) were JOINT HEIRS.

    1 Corinthians 15:53 ....this mortal shall put on IMMORTALITY ....

    1 Timothy 6:16 CHRIST ONLY hath IMMORTALITY ......

    By the death and resurrection of all things were MADE NEW, were were created in the IMAGE of CHRIST.

    OF TWO was made ONE FLESH.

    Walk in truth, you are the body of Christ.

    There is ONLY one LIFE.

    John 14:16 I AM truth and LIFE.

    God Bless You
  • Richard H Priday - 3 weeks ago
    Conclusion for now on effectual grace.

    To correctly understand; in the fullness of time who is truly saved is important. I do believe there is something to "election" as God will repeatedly pursue those who are "His sheep". I also believe that God is patient with the wicked every day ( 2 Peter 3:9; but also has a plan for the end of the wicked ( Proverbs 16:4). Again; referring earlier to my post on those who appear friendly but in fact are tares in our midst needs to be factored in here. Oftentimes the focus is on people who never heard the Gospel; in fact they will be judged less harshly than those who know the law ( Luke 12:47-8; Matt. 11:24-25). Overall there will no doubt be some surprises in heaven for the few last minute conversions that we may see. But here I am warning about those we assume believe but in reality don't.

    Clearly we approach everyone as though they are potential candidates to receive truth and therefore impartially; as I have brought out. Whether we look at it as people predestined as individuals to be saved or as a general plan for salvation; of course the same theory could be those predestined for destruction. God's plan will eventually commence either at death or when He judges the world in the Tribulation and beyond.

    In knowing for whatever reason that some will respond and others not helps us; particularly for those we have time after time witnessed to but just don't get it-again I have seen people who for YEARS attended family Bible studies; gone to church etc but never had a genuine testimony of faith in Christ; OR their fruit was all bad and their lifestyle showed that they were in the catagory of habitual unrepentant sinners. This becomes clearer after some time is passed. Also God's favor or election ISN'T something we should expect those not yet converted to get and we should NOT preach to them that if they are elect they will be saved. Until they are saved we preach repent and believe as they don't know Christ.
  • Jesse - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Giannis,

    Thanks brother! That's my belief also, that Jesus is God. I think it is correct to say that Jesus is God Himself, rather than what you said in your previous post that "Jesus is a God Himself."

    Blessings!
  • Richard H Priday - 3 weeks ago
    Further thoughts on effectual grace.

    Having preferred this terminology to "limited atonement" I'll ditch the intro. Again; I am stating that as with any gift it has to be opened and accepted which fits in somewhat to this subject. I have stated before that we need to be cautious not to confuse those who appear friendly and open to the Word as being different to anyone else who in truth are our "enemies"; at least in the sense of being enemies of the Gospel. Loving those who hate us and despitefully use us inevitably bears fruit with some who repent; but this goes against our natural stance as well. My point here is that getting beyond our own inclinations help us to focus less on the social relationships of those we naturally enjoy being around and reaching out to the unlovable; getting out of our "comfort zones."

    God's free gift of salvation is free but didn't come cheaply and requires of us our all. The end of "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" by Isaac Watts says

    Love so amazing, so divine,

    Demands my soul, my life, my all.

    Dying to self let's face is ain't so popular in many of today's churches. To be a Disciple of Christ has requirements that leave most of professing believers in the dust; let's face it.

    We can therefore approach evangelism with the "easy believism" or "decisional regeneration" style which says "come as you are" but doesn't go any further emphasizing leaving our old self at the altar once we enter the doors of the sanctuary. It should be much easier today to give a "tough love" approach to being a true Christian and Disciple which the Great Commission calls us to do. Equipping the saints for combat; indeed mortal combat in the spiritual world against powers and principalities far above any human strength to fight means we become a target of the enemy and we should expect in today's world that our life will get a lot worse. THAT is how worthy our Lord is that WE are counted worthy to suffer for His Name's Sake.
  • Richard H Priday - 3 weeks ago
    Limited Atonement or Effectual Grace

    In the end; as my last post alluded to whether it is all predestined or man's future actions are taken into account at least in part or even if we think it is totally up to man where we end up we know that God is good and fair and eventually a certain number will be in heaven as well as hell. I have brought up the concept of life as a play on a stage where eternal realities in our time and place through our lives is acted out and various individuals and spiritual entities are all part of the overall theme which centers on God's script as it were. This obviously reduces life to a simplistic level but I think it merits somewhat how things are orchestrated so that in fullness of time all things come to pass ( Gal. 4:4). As this verse shows in Galatians Christ came at the "fullness" or correct time; just as His judgments come when sin is at the fullest. We see that concept with Genesis 15:16 and the Amorites; and surely when the Tribulation takes effect. ( Rev. 14:15).

    As to the individual; there is a set time for everything from birth to death and judgment to follow ( Heb. 9:27).

    Looking to this subject I think we all would agree that no one in hell will be able to have a genuine beef with God that He didn't provide a way to come to Him as not being one of the "elect". The hard truth is that without Christ God Himself is our enemy (we are at "enmity" with God: Romans 8:7; etal). There is; in fact no praise of God in hell ( Isaiah 38:18). Without the Lord we are all sadly "cowards" and that is a major and first indictment in Revelation 21:8). As much as the suffering of the lost they have no desire to die to self. Everything of this world is passing as a vapor but the unsaved do not wish to die to themselves. What is bigger than this; however is that they don't want to accept God's only remedy for the situation; the bad news of their own state isn't believed and they think their good works can save them.
  • Shantel - 3 weeks ago
    2 Samuel 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse SAID, and the man who was raised up on high SAID, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, SAID,

    2 Samuel 23:1 The Spirit on the LORD (Christ the Spirit of prophecy) SPAKE BY ME, and HIS WORDS were in my tongue.

    Revelation 19:19 .... for the words of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy .......

    All the words in the bible are the words of CHRIST.

    All the Psalms are the WORDS of Christ, not David, all the words in the Psalms are prophecies of the kingdom of God.

    Man's teachings have destroyed TRUTH.

    God Bless You as TRUTH and LIGHT destroys DARKNESS, the works of Satan.
  • David0921 - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Giannis,

    If I may respond to your comment although not addressed directly to me. You say:

    " So the question is. Are we willing to empty ouselves from our egos, from our ambitions in this life? Are we willing to love our brethren like ourselves, are we willing to follow Jesus until death, are we willing to love our enemies...etc. God will not do that for us. He will keep telling us the right thing, sometimes using the tough way to teach us, but at the end of the day it is our decision."

    I agree that your quote above is what God COMMANDS us to do.

    But here in lies the problem.

    None of us will do this or even want to do this with our WHOLE HEART, our WHOLE SOUL until God "saves" us and gives us a NEW HEART, a NEW SOUL.

    This is very clear from the verses I have referenced in previous comments, if you care to review them. And many other verses as well.

    When trying to understand what the Bible is teaching about the Nature of Salvation, we MUST consider mankind's condition APART from Salvation. That we are Spiritually DEAD, that we love this World far more than we love God or our fellow man, that we want what we want; Eph 2 and many other passages.

    And that we cannot and will not turn to God with a broken and contrite HEART, recognizing that we are under the Wrath of God because of our sins.

    And that we are entirely dependent upon God ALONE to change this horrible situation in our life.

    A very interesting and enlightening exercise is to look up all the passages where God uses the terms "Whole Heart" or "Whole Soul" or "All Your Heart" or "All Your Soul" which is what God requires.

    Which one of us is capable of this in our Spiritually DEAD condition?

    Which one of us even does this perfectly, in our whole personality, after receiving a New Heart, becoming Born Again, since our New Soul still resides in an unsaved Body that still lusts after sin, until separated from that Body at death or receiving our Resurrected Spiritual Body at the Last Day?
  • Hope In Jesus Christ on Psalms 55 - 3 weeks ago
    In Psalms 55:22, the word "moved" in the original Hebrew is / mot.

    Original Word:

    Part of Speech: Verb

    Transliteration: mot

    Phonetic Spelling: ("mte")

    Definition: to totter, shake, slip

    What wonderful reassurance for all born again [saved] followers of Christ Jesus the Lord, that our Heavenly Father will not allow us to slip and fall!

    If we begin to totter, his powerful, loving, hand is there to steady us and to keep us on His straight and narrow pathway.
  • Jaz - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hello Brother and thank you for your reply to me and yes I pretty much agree with everything that you've said . I did send a general message about my thoughts on this topic but it hasn't come on the site yet , maybe I said something amiss , I hope not .

    Basically the point I made was that God knows everything from everlasting to everlasting , so I do believe that we have free will but we need to consider that God already knows exactly how we will use it throughout all the days of our lives .

    Even Jesus did not know everything when he was here on earth the first time , he says to Peter that he has prayed for him ( Peter ) , that his faith fail not . Only God Himself is all knowing , though of course He has now given all power to His Son but even Jesus does not yet know the time hat God will send him back to us . So there are always things that God keeps to Himself for His own reasons .

    All we need to do is trust Him , when Jesus is talking about little children coming to God through him , he's speaking metaphorically , in a parable , we are to be as little children , trusting , not doubting our Fathers love for us and wisdom and righteousness , not doubting His Son and the perfect sacrifice that has cleansed us in God's sight . Thanks again for your excellent reply to me , I can't add any more to your sensible words .
  • Jaz - 3 weeks ago
    God , who of course knows everything beforehand , chose Jacob over Esau , we can't know 100 per cent why God did this but I believe it might have had something to do with Esau marrying into the local heathen girls families . God would already know that Esau would do this from the day that Esau was conceived .

    This is where I think we can get confused by the thoughts of free will and predestination .

    I believe that God is in charge of His entire creation , I also believe that He knows us before we know our own selves . We have free will for sure but God , in His infinite wisdom knowledge and understanding , knows exactly how we will use it all day every day .

    Thinking about this sometimes bends my brain to be honest . However , it is also a massive comfort and strengthener to me to know that , I am never alone , God knows me and loves me and He , in His wisdom , has allowed me a measure of understanding of His Eternal Word , this understanding has helped my faith in Him to grow and grow .

    I have faced death more than once . I am so comforted to know that I shall not die until it is His Will for me to do so and He is righteous .

    So , I have nothing to fear in this life . This is my faith . Fear is the enemy , if we have faith in Him we should not fear . We are very privileged , thank God for His mercy and love and for allowing each one of us to know something about Him . One day we will all know all , until then we debate , and hopefully continue to learn and grow , the Bible is the living water we all need to keep drinking every day , none of us knows everything , we must remember that and communicate accordingly . Much love to all my fellow Christians on here , it's good to be walking with you all , old and new friends and family in Christ . May God bless us all and keep us together . May we not tare each other apart !
  • Jaz - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Dear Gigi , the one thing I find most interesting about your beliefs is the one thing that you don't share , why you believe what you do ? Where does your belief , that babies and very young children who die are saved , come from ? I can find no evidence to support this , just the opposite in fact . Please , if it's there in the Bible , tell me where it is , thank you .
  • Giannis - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hello Jesse

    I mean that Jesus is God Himself, a part of the Godhead/Trinity.
  • Richard H Priday - 3 weeks ago
    "Limited Atonement" or "Effectual Grace."

    I am seeking the Lord in prayer over this latest subject and what has become a plethora of debated doctrinal issues. We need as in all issues to be a Berean; and to make sure we actually understand what scripture; and in these cases the "meat of the Word" actually means. ( 1 Cor. 3:2). In order to contend for the truth we have to make sure that disunity and strife aren't being utilized by the enemy to bring weakness to the brethren and especially that it won't cause any seed of bitterness in us to rise up where we would; for instance not be led to pray for one another as we should. ( Heb. 12:15 actually says "root" of bitterness). In many cases there may be more than one truth; such as man RESPONDING to Christ's gift of repentance through action which is of course necessary as well as "working out our salvation with fear and trembling" ( Philippians 2:12). Not only would we be robots if there wasn't some "symbiotic" relationship going on we wouldn't exist at all. In one sense we have to die to self or be "crucified with Christ" ( Gal. 2:20) when we begin to be Born Again; but it is a process of sanctification; which some proceed quickly and others slowly; and most probably in fits and starts of variable length.

    I have brought this idea up as is similar to the concept mentioned here of knowing future actions of Jacob and Esau. It would seem Esau is eternally lost; but there were some things even he did to at least stop his plans on destroying Jacob after they met after Jacob's wrestling in the wilderness with the Angel of God. We could look at Moses; for instance who perished along with the rest of the generation; clearly he was a saved man but one error in particular (striking the rock in anger) was enough to keep him from walking into the Promised Land at the end.

    We could look at this subject of only some being saved either with total predestined plans of God or His foreknowledge of what men would do.
  • Bennymkje - 3 weeks ago
    Ge.27:22 "Thy voice"

    "'The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau."

    The word of God does not err. The risen Jesus was recognised by his voice. "Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master." ( John 20:16).When God commanded "Let there be light" The voice was true and is what made the Son qualify as the true Light. "After our likeness" is the sign and it can be as bread from heaven and as the stone cut not with hands, each of which serves his Father according to His purpose. When God blessed man in his Son the voice was clear and true. "arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me." (27:19) Isaac did not err in his soul. What is soul but the breath of God? God breathed into the nostrils of man he made him a living soul. The Spirit instructs us that every man has received this faculty to hear the voice which is what the ear of faith, or the inner man represents.

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." By the same token we have the gift freely received to obey God as Jesus Christ showed. St Paul writes, "but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." (Ro.5:11-12) How can Calvin speak of limited atonement? It is an outright heresy, a lie.

    Jacob a heel catcher and his lied before his Father whos could not go wrong. Isaac as the heir of promise poits out the discrepancy. "The voice is Jacob's, bu the hands ar the hand's of Esau." It is thus the imposter churches have practised their religion. The example of ,"Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done." Is he any different than the believers of our times? He did not believe in the whole truth so we have heresies aired in this forum. Limited atonement, Bah! "(Ac,8:9-24)
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hi Gigi.

    I thought it may be good to start a separate thread.

    Part 2.

    Limited Atonement is unbiblical. It goes against the Nature of God!

    Limited Atonement is defined in this way; "For God so loved the ELECT, that he gave his only begotten Son, that HE GAVE THEM THE ABILITY TO BELIEVE in him so they will not perish but have everlasting life.

    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the ELECT; but that the ELECT through him might be saved.

    Gigi that is not the Gospel (good news)

    Universalism is a belief I don't hold to, though I wish it was true because I wish that no one should parish. However, it's unbiblical. God also wish that no one would parish, 2 Peter 3:9.

    Universalism is something we have been pushing back against for years on this site because it ignores the Judgement of God and the hate of sin amongst other things.

    Limited Atonement is no better being it ignores the Love of God without partiality and many of God attributes as well.

    How are we to minister to a lost world by telling them that if you are not of the elect that the invitation and verses like Revelation 22:17 and John 3:15-17 doesn't apply to them.

    What use of verses like Matthews 5:13-16 would be to us?

    The Gospel would not be Good News to most of the world!

    One other thing that Limited Atonement and Universalism has in common is that neither requires a response from the listener and if we are regenerated as early as in the wound and regeneration doesn't mean re-birth, then when do repentance take place?

    I'm surprised you can go through a series of who God is and yet hold to such a view.

    God bless.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hi Gigi.

    Thanks for your reply.

    Part 1

    You stated, " If God chose to have you be aware of believing in Him from a very early age, that is God's sovereign choice for you.

    (AS FOR THE OTHERS), infants and very young children can be given faith and believe BUT IT IS NOT IN THE SAME MANNER AS ADULTS.

    So, what I gather here is that God with his "sovereign choice' gave you faith and belief at the age of 3 in the same manner as adults.

    And you gave the illustration of King David saying that God caused him to trust in Him while he was at His mother's breast. But an adult trusts God in a more metacognitive way.

    Gigi you are referring to Psalms 22:9. Here is how it reads; "But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

    Gigi Psalms 22:1-21 is a portrait of the thoughts of Christ on the cross.

    This is not speaking of King David.

    Psalms 51:5 is what King David has to say. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Gigi this limited Atonement you are describing now as an Adult, is this also what you believed in when you were 3 years old?

    That God 's offering of Christ is only for his elect?

    That God will send the rest to hell but somehow, he chose you as a 3-year-old and many others at that age will remain lost and go to Hell.

    "Some here do not believe in Hell so please spare me." But you have said you do believe in Hell.

    Is this the same knowledge you had when you had the faith, belief, and understanding of an Adult at the age of 3?

    Gigi, I remember believing any and everything my parents and grandparents said.

    We were brought up and taught about the lord by them as for many people.

    However, that faith I had was faith I had in "THEM." My belief was in THEM. The relationship was with THEM, NOT GOD!

    A baby doesn't know what denying Christ mean!

    My salvation as well as anyone at that age is completely in God's Love and mercy for our youthful understanding.

    See Part 2.
  • Jesse - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Giannis,

    Did you intend to say that Jesus is a God Himself? Just curious!
  • Giannis - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Jaz, 2/2

    So the question is. Are we willing to empty ouselves from our egos, from our ambitions in this life? Are we willing to love our brethren like ourselves, are we willing to follow Jesus until death, are we willing to love our enemies...etc. God will not do that for us. He will keep telling us the right thing, sometimes using the tough way to teach us, but at the end of the day it is our decision.

    To all those questions it is the responsibility of each one of us to give answers to and take the right decisions and go to God and ask Him to provide His grace to us to accomplish them. Jesus, although a God Himself, took as a human person all the good decisions and walked in the Spirit's power. So you see we are vessels, we are soil, dust, but we are individual personalities as well.

    This is how I understand and believe this topic. Now, if I am wrong let the Lord show me the right thing.

    GBU
  • Giannis - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Hi Jaz,1/2

    You are right about "It is God's right and privilege to do as He pleases with any of us'. But on the other hand we know that God is a righteous God. We also know that ( 1 Peter 1:17) "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work..."

    Also please read Acts 10:34-35, it is very claryfing, "34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

    So God judges with no respect of persons, He is a just God. So what pleases Him is people responding to His love and choose the right way, isn't it?

    Also I would like to explain my understanding about us being vessels of God. It is true that God puts His Spirit inside each one of us. So as Paul says we are the vessels which carry inside the treasure which is God's Spirit. This Spirit produces a fruit and enable us to obey God's commandements and change our characters in similarity to Jesus'. OK so far?

    But what we must understand is that the Spirit of God is not sort of an "auto pilot" which drives us to where He wants to without our control and consent. He needs our consent, this is our free will. God's Spirit stands infront of our heart wishing to enter every appartment of it and cleanse it. But if we don't allow Him to enter any of these or some of these, He will not force His way through. The Spirit follows our decisions. If we want and ask Him to help us in a specific area He will definitely do that. But if we don't, He will wait until we give Him the permission to act, if we give Him it after all. As I said in a previous post it was on Abraham's hand to sacrifice his son, he could had chosen not to do it. God didn't force him to obey. So Abraham was justified by God for something he himself did, not God.
  • Giannis - 3 weeks ago
    What is the reason that God selects beforehand some for salvation?

    Let's have a look at a famous part of the Bible that is often misunderstood.

    Romans 9:11-16,

    11For the children (Jacob and Esau) being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    OK, so what was the reason God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born?

    Was it that Esau was going to be hairy and red so God didn't like his appearance?

    Was it that Jacob was going to be maybe handsome so God liked him?

    Some will answer saying that we don't know what God had in mind. Don't we really?

    If we look at the lives of both what do we see? We see that Jacob loved to grab God's promise to Abraham, and we also see that Esau literally rejected and humiliated that promise considering that promise to be less valuable than a dish of soup. What a humiliation! Similarly Judas thought that Jesus, the Son of God, deserved just 30 pieces of silver. So I ask again. What did God know beforehand about those two so He loved Jacob but hated Esau? The answer is obvious, isn't it? Next question. On what God based His decision to select beforehand Jacob instead of Esau. Not on what He arbitrarily decided but on how those two would respond to His call. Maybe God did something supernatural to make Jacob respond and Esau reject Him? Why would He do that?

    Similarly God's selection of each one of us is due to our response to His love which He showed to us by sacrificing His Son. There is no other possible reason
  • Bennymkje - 3 weeks ago
    Ge.27:37 "And what shall I do now unto thee, my son?"

    One can imagine the dilemma of Isaac as a father to realise that the world he believed as true falling apart in every direction. His wife worked against his interests is a tragedy on the domestic front. No less was his loss of intragenerational trust,- if he could not trust his own son what else could he?. His tragedy was that of his world seen was 'not made of things which do appear.' Such is the case with everyone who made flesh his arm. Prophet Jeremiah was spot on. In Jesus was the life of men, and he said, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John6:63) Before we discuss the world of the Spirit we shall juxtapose the dilemma of Isaac with the Father in the world of the Spirit. The Son asks the Father, "Lo I have come to do thy will" God must have responded similarly but with joy so we may according to our human imagination say with St Paul, " (God) who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ."(Ep.1:4). In short the world of the Spirit teaches the representational nature so the body that of flesh and blood is near approximation of the heavenly realities. So whosoever embraces it is to live a life of lie. "As the partridge sitteth on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool."(Je.17:11)

    So what was Isaac's blessings to both sons in terms of worldly goods? In v.37 Isaac tells Esau, "Behold, I have made him thy lord, and all his brethren have I given to him for servants;" and v.40, "And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck."

    The dominion refers to the blessing the Gentiles shall receive in Christ. Truth shall set him free.
  • Chris - In Reply - 3 weeks ago
    Page 3. GiGi

    Just as a child receiving a gift responds by reaching out to take (or, grab) it, with a smile or a thank you following, the sinner under deep conviction of his sinful state, of deserved punishment, will certainly reach out & give thanks for such a gift from God Who alone can save him. The Work of God has already been completed when Jesus made the payment for sin, nothing more can ever be added to it, not even a sinner's acceptance & appreciation.

    I realize that I, and those who have been saved from other religions or a sinful lifestyle, can have a salvation experience that is different to say, as yours, where you were brought up in a Christian home & lived a godly life, increasing in faith & knowledge. I feel that even though the Spirit's Work in each case is the same, it might be very different in the severity of conviction & understanding. For you, you have been faithful to the Lord & His Word from your early years, so regeneration has been early, especially when you came to the age of understanding what sin is & the Gospel that saves - and you embraced that & continued in joy, hope & confidence of your position in Christ. For most others, coming out of a life of sin & false religions, I'm confident that what was a subtle Work of the Holy Spirit in you to save you will be a heart-wrenching, mighty shake-up & revelation from God in others. In either case, regeneration must take place: for me the date is set in stone (Oct 23, 1979), for you, a quieter unnoticeable transition under the Spirit's Ministry in your life. I'll leave it here for now & thanks again.


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