Chris, thank you so much for your time and all you have said I think has validity. Of course my feelings about this matter are bordering on what seemingly is the lack of value of earthly lives back then. Of course this all points to that fallen angel Satan. He likes causing unbelief and doubt where he can. That's what he is doing to me. He has NOT got me to disbelieve any of God's word or weakened my faith I talked to my pastor about this and he did not have an answer for me but told me he would be trying to find a reasonable explanation for the games . If the games did in fact lessen the severity of upcoming battles then that sounds like it was worthwhile.
I hope you can receive other views here Marcus, or else find further explanation & expansion of this biblical account elsewhere. It may well be that this "game" was actually a part of a greater battle that could have been pursued or prevented depending on the outcome of these 24 engaged in sword play. Not having the full story before us, leaves one speculating, so any opinion may be worthy of consideration.
I did find the following by renowned commentator, Charles Ellicott: on verse 14: "To avoid unnecessary bloodshed between the tribes of a common parentage, and also, perhaps, to prevent the weakening of the nation in the face of their common Philistine foe, Abner proposes that the struggle should be decided by a combat between a few champions chosen on either side, and Joab immediately accepts the proposal. Hervey (Speaker's Commentary) aptly compares this combat to that of the Horatii and Curiatii, under strikingly similar circumstances and with similar results, as described by Livy (I., 100 10:25)."
And to verse 17: "The combat of the twelve on each side having decided nothing, the two hosts joined battle. Abner and the Israelites were worsted (sic). The numbers engaged were probably not large, as the whole number of the slain was nineteen on David's side, and 360 on that of Israel ( 2Samuel 2:30-31). It was, however, a turning-point in the struggle."
These comments still don't answer your question, but I can only assume that with the lower sanctity of life of those days, particularly in times of warfare or when clear or assumed disobedience to the Law was evidenced, that the lives that could have been used in full-blown battle could also be used in any prelude to it. The question that actually came to my mind was how was it not possible that at least a couple of men could have survived this 24 man encounter, even with suffering severe injuries, but that all suffered the same fate. I guess some things we will never know.
Thanks so much for the reply Chris but it is not sufficient enough to relieve my feelings regarding this matter. What you say seems to be about the way I understand it. What I am saying is that this all seems like a total misuse of soldiers in battle. Each of these men that lost their lives in a "game" perhaps could have taken many lives of their enemies if allowed to fight with their weapons (swords) the way intended instead of confining them to sure death along with their adversary as I see the "rules" of the game to lead them. Is this not a silly thing to do? Were these men volunteers or was there a reason for those particular 24 being there under those circumstances? What, I ask you is ENTERTAINING about watching 12 struggles of this nature in a cesspool of death anyway? No, what I would ask some of you historians is an explanation of this mayhem. The ONLY possible reason for this is because both sides wanted to be able to provide 12 men with enough courage to meet their death this way since the other side was able to provide 12 to do so. Can anyone help me?
This portion of Scripture isn't about "mutual suicide". We have the servants (no doubt, warriors) of Ishbosheth (pertaining to Israel) & those of David (pertaining to Judah) facing each other by the pool. The suggestion by Abner (of Israel) for their men to have some 'sword play' & had their larger bodies of warriors as spectators. Apparently, those 24 men all killed each other in this small battle & the ensuing (larger) battle that followed by the remaining armies, saw Israel losing altogether to David's army.
So I see that the intent of these armies facing each other was to do battle, but that little insert of the 24 men sparring with each other was just the 'taster' to start the battle going & not to commit suicide.
2 Samuel 2:16 While reading the scriptures I have questions about this seemingly 12 acts of mutual suicide. Could their lives not have been better used in battle???
I am a believer since I was 14 years old have been like the prodigal son in some of my walk with him. In it all he has always been merciful and awesome. We are loved by him more than we can ever comprehend. We were made by him, for him and should live through him. He is the beginning and the end. Anything we learn or go through is but a glimpse of what he intended for us to go through. Remember no other name is given than the name of Jesus Christ for salvation is only found in him. He is love beyond measure, he has forgiven us, he did the hard work by dying for us in the cross and resurrecting on the 3rd day. He left to prepare a place for us. All the law and prophets are surmised in these two commandments. Love God with all your heart, soul, and strength. Then love your neighbor as yourself. By their fruits he shall know them. Let his light shine through us in this dark world. We are to show his glory to the world, so they can come to him. Love you guys keep on keeping on. The end is near let us watch and have our lamps full of oil.
While reading SAINT LUKE chapter1 I wanted to encourage someone today that God is still God Of The Impossible no matter what our situation is keep trusting, and believe in his word !!!
ALLELUIA AMEN, thanks Holy *FATHER* for the dear-ones testimony. Grant a Prayerful tender heart where Isaiah 49:24,25 KJV will help bring forth much fruit. The *LORD JESUS* be magnified, and Jude 20 the often refuge and rest.
Winnie, I was raise in the catholic church. Over there people listen and behave like statues. When I became protestant, I felt in my heart like you do and I too thought that people would look and maybe laugh about me. When I told this to a lady, she told me "close your eyes and let the Lord be your only audience" I now follow my heart only and I am happy. We should only please the Lord.
David did according to god will when God spoke to David.As we all should in stead we all do our own will that y this world is so mess up to day if we would learn by David and the word of God.And walk the right path.We mite not be were we are to day.May be we need God to return and rebuke us to bring us repentance
In church,I didn't do the Amen and what have you,I personally was young and was on a different spiritual maturity level,I heard others do so,but at the same time some just did it because it was habbit or something,some people cry or experience emotions,it might not have been shout at the top of your lungs to display to everyone,but it impacted people differently,GOD knows your heart,Spoken or not.
Some people are simply not very vocal, they don't even respond to Spiritually filling messages but deep down inside they are affected and also, The Lord deals differently with people, some messages are spiritually filling to other people while to othey people they aren't.
Winnie, I often wonder how people in church and not express any emotion to the point of not saying "amen" or hallelujah during a good Spirit filled message. Would they sit like pillars of stone at a sporting event?
Brenda, it's true that David 's first son by Bathsheba died. This just magnify the grace and mercy of God because David's second son by Bathsheba was the great King Solomon. It is also true that Abner killed Asheal in battle after he warned him several times to fight a young soldier therefore that was not murder. What Joab did to Abner was a surprise to Abner and therefore murder. Glory be to God
In 2 Samuel 2:1 Though David knew he has been anointed by God to be king over Israel, and now Saul was dead, with his military power he would have went ahead to imposed himself on the people of Israel, but he would not do that, so he still enquired from God whether to go into the land of Judah or not. We should learn not to run ahead of God in fulfilling His will in our life.
I did find the following by renowned commentator, Charles Ellicott: on verse 14: "To avoid unnecessary bloodshed between the tribes of a common parentage, and also, perhaps, to prevent the weakening of the nation in the face of their common Philistine foe, Abner proposes that the struggle should be decided by a combat between a few champions chosen on either side, and Joab immediately accepts the proposal. Hervey (Speaker's Commentary) aptly compares this combat to that of the Horatii and Curiatii, under strikingly similar circumstances and with similar results, as described by Livy (I., 100 10:25)."
And to verse 17: "The combat of the twelve on each side having decided nothing, the two hosts joined battle. Abner and the Israelites were worsted (sic). The numbers engaged were probably not large, as the whole number of the slain was nineteen on David's side, and 360 on that of Israel ( 2Samuel 2:30-31). It was, however, a turning-point in the struggle."
These comments still don't answer your question, but I can only assume that with the lower sanctity of life of those days, particularly in times of warfare or when clear or assumed disobedience to the Law was evidenced, that the lives that could have been used in full-blown battle could also be used in any prelude to it. The question that actually came to my mind was how was it not possible that at least a couple of men could have survived this 24 man encounter, even with suffering severe injuries, but that all suffered the same fate. I guess some things we will never know.
So I see that the intent of these armies facing each other was to do battle, but that little insert of the 24 men sparring with each other was just the 'taster' to start the battle going & not to commit suicide.
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