2 Samuel Chapter 1 Discussion


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  • Hannah robinson on 2 Samuel 1
    Isaiah 52

    7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the Mevaser (bringer of Good Tidings, the Evangelist), that publisheth shalom; that bringeth good tidings of tov, that publisheth Yeshuah (Salvation); that saith unto Tziyon, Thy G-d reigneth!

    8 Thy tzofim (watchmen) shall lift up the kol (voice); with the kol together shall they shout for joy; for they shall see it with their own eyes, when Hashem returns to Tziyon.

    9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye ruins of Yerushalayim; for Hashem hath comforted His people, He hath redeemed Yerushalayim.

    10 Hashem hath made bare His zero'a kedoshah [see Yeshayah 53:1] in the eyes of Kol HaGoyim; and all the ends of ha'aretz shall see the Yeshuat Eloheinu.

    11 Depart ye, depart ye; come ye out from there; touch not tameh (unclean thing); come ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that carry the k'lei Hashem.

    12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight; for Hashem will go before you; and Elohei Yisroel will be your rearguard. T.N. Avdi Tzemach Moshiach [Zecharyah 3:8] will be exalted; but He must do the work of a kohen [Tehillim 110:4] regarding the nations, sprinkling them (see Vayikra 4:16-17; 16:14); so yazzeh ("He [Moshiach] will sprinkle,") many goyim; note: hiphil of "naza," "splatter", meaning "sprinkle"); see Zecharyah 9:9-11 where Moshiach comes with the dahm and the Brit (Covenant)! Here in Yeshayah 52:15, the covenant dahm (blood) is sprinkled upon the nations of the world; the King of Kings shall shut the mouths of the kings of all the earth.

    13 Hinei, Avdi [Moshiach, see Zecharyah 3:8] shall act wisely, he shall be raised and be lifted up, and be highly exalted.

    14 As rabbim (many) were appalled at thee [Moshiach]; his appearance was so disfigured more than any man, and his form more than the bnei adam;

    15 So yazzeh Goyim rabbim (he [Moshiach] will sprinkle many nations); the melachim (kings) shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see;
  • Hannah robinson on 2 Samuel 1
    shalom I just wanted to say this from a Hebraic aspect pt 1

    Isaiah 52

    6 Therefore My people shall know My name; therefore they shall know in that day that I am He that doth speak. Behold, it is I."

    7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, "Thy God reigneth!"

    8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.

    9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted His people, He hath redeemed Jerusalem.

    10 The Lord hath made bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

    11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the Lord.

    12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rearward.

    13 "Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently, He shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

    14 As many as were astonished at thee-His visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men"
  • Crystal Blubaugh on 2 Samuel 1
    Like when He cleared the Temple when they were using it for revenue? He overturned the tables of the money changers.
  • Chris - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    We generally have governments who wants to maintain separation of religion from politics. However, from the Middle Ages, it was the government/kings that wanted to control the religious aspects of society, claiming that they had the divine right to do so. Then in medieval Europe, it was the Pope who demanded authority of the Church over the State but in the West (i.e. not popish Europe), governments still exercised some control over the Church.

    Then in the Protestant Reformation, it was Martin Luther who brought in the doctrine of the two kingdoms: the start of separation of the Church & State, where it was proposed that the State could not have any authority over the Church. And later (in the American context), Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter, "The Wall of Separation between Church & State" to the Danbury Baptist Assoc. to assure them that the U.S. Bill of Rights prevented the establishment of a national Church, so they had no concerns about government interference to their religious freedoms. So in that letter to the Association in 1802, Jefferson referenced the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, & I quote:

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of govt. reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"; thus building a wall of separation between Church and State in the U.S.

    And from that, many countries have adopted a similar position of separation. So, maybe your question is how can religion (i.e. knowledge & worship of God) be excluded from the State (politics). The above is one reason & the other, in my perception, is their rejection of anything of God to be incorporated into the law, politics & their thinking.
  • Spike4187 on 2 Samuel 1
    Years ago I was visiting an old friend from my school days. She and I became friends in 4th grade. She had become a Lesbian. I spoke with her about my concern for her soul and I discussed with her what the Lord tells us through his word. Her response was verse 26. "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. " Being a soldier at the time and serving with a group of men in which we had done many dangerous things together as our Country called us to do, I understand what David was saying here. There is a bond that develops between people who serve in a theater of danger. As we read in the Bible, David was in a theater of danger and Jonathon was his friend, it was a brotherly love that the homosexuals have hijacked and distorted to justify their behavior. The love David talked about is a love that passes the love of women because its not a sexual love, its a love that is forged in the fire of danger, a non judgmental, non superficial, non physical love. The love of a true friend will not fail you, will last forever, will not desert you and will not condemn you, even when you are wrong. That is what David had with Jonathan.
  • Chris - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    An excellent post Spike4187. You have understood 2 Sam 1:26 accurately, while homosexuals & the cultural arts have depicted King David as soft & effeminate probably based on this verse alone. "Passing the love of women" in this context can only be understood as 'going beyond the physical expressions of love as would be shown to women", NOT "loving men instead of women". So it should be seen as a love that was entirely different to that which is proposed by these others. In any case, other Scriptures that reveal the mind of God towards such deviant behaviour, both in the OT & NT, should give ample confirmation that such a relationship could never be condoned, only viewed as sinful. Yet, under the Mercy of God, all sinners can be saved if only they acknowledged their sin & turned away from it thereby receiving Grace to live according to God's Holy Standards.

    And such a love, as depicted in 2 Samuel & as you have given a great example, in the midst of battle, is a love/friendship forged on proven trust, commitment, reliability, honesty, sound advice, faithfulness, a listening ear & a sensitive heart. Sometimes, this type of love might even go beyond the family home & goes so deep, that the friendship could even echo the verse: "..there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother." Proverbs 18:24b. Hope your next meeting with her may see more of the Work of God in her mind & understanding, resulting from your sharing & prayers for her.
  • Spike4187 - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Thanks Chris! Tell me, what are your thoughts on "gifts off the spirit" I have been to churches that say "you are not saved if you don't speak in tongues. (which translated from the Greek is known Languages) During the event of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came upon the believers of Jesus, they begin to speak in other Languages (tongues) and we know it was known languages because the Bible tells us there were devout Jews form all over the known world at the time who were in Jerusalem at the time and heard the "unlearned me" speaking perfectly in their language! Seems to be its not some unknown babel or some special heavenly language but an actual language that is known. Now, the gift of healing where you see in the New Testament where Jesus raised the dead, healed the blind, the paralyzed walked, etc. After the day of Pentecost, you see the disciples of performing the same miracles. It seems later in the lives of the Apostles however, Paul writes a letter to Timothy and tells him to not only drink water but drink a little wine for his frequent stomach troubles. Why wouldn't Paul just heal him? Today the most notable faith healers have turned out to be frauds. But if in fact there were any out there who could lay hands on people and they become healed, don't you think they would go to the nearest children's hospital and clear it out? What are your thoughts on this?
  • Chris - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Page 2 (which I don't think appeared when sending Page 1)

    Yet, I don't hold as some do, that all the Gifts (at least those such as Tongues, Healing & Miracles) have ceased. 1 Cor 13:8-10 is usually given in support that all these are no more since "that which is perfect comes": probably they're referring to the complete Word of God or the full establishment of Christ's Church when those 'spectacular' Gifts are no longer warranted. I'm not convinced about such a stance as I just don't have enough from the Word to support this. The verse could well speak of what we know & do "in part" now will one day in the future be fully known when there will be no further need of such manifestations. I do admit that we see a lot of false proofs, but can we say with all certainty that the Spirit has ceased altogether in His demonstration of His Power to the Church & the World? Some have even attributed these manifestations to the work of the Devil; this is very sad & grievous as the caution for 'blaspheming' e.g. Matthew 12:31, is when some applied the works of the Holy Spirit of God to Satan. Apart from one example that I heard of, where an actual unlearned language was spoken for the blessing of the Church, but the brother was soon pulled back down as there was in their midst one who actually spoke & understood that language. The message was satanic which blasphemed the Deity rather than glorifying him. But we need to take care as to how we view such manifestations & also in understanding the Scriptures.
  • Chris - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Page 3.

    I also share your concern for those with the Gift of Healing. Again, I think the same principles of care & concern needs to be adopted. Especially, on the mission field where God's servants are labouring under very difficult spiritual environments where Satan has a firm grip, the moving of the Spirit in areas of healing & miracles can be seen as testimony of the Power of God & thus openness to the Gospel. Your example of Timothy's stomach & other infirmities, as well as Paul himself who had a thorn in his flesh which he besought the Lord for healing three times (2 Corinthians 12:8) are good examples of the sudden apparent cessation of this important spiritual gift among believers.

    I hope that some of these thoughts are useful to the end that we consider one another in godly love yet in gentleness reprove those that err from the Truth & set them on the right path.
  • Spike4187 - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    I have to ask these questions because I wonder, am I the only one out there that thinks these things? I mean, I was 15 when I came to know Christ in this one foster home where the people who took me in temporarily, called themselves Christians. Out of all the families I had lived with, this was the most peaceful and loving home I had ever experienced. Back then, I believed in the God of the Bible, but I did not know of the significance of Jesus. I had no understanding of who he actually is. The foster mom taught me and explained it to me as she showed me the Bible. Suddenly it was like a light came on and I knew. I knew I needed him to save me. I prayed with her and I became converted. My whole attitude towards the world changed. I no longer hated the world and wanted to destroy all that I saw as I ran around in the night creating mischief. It totally changed my outlook. Of course I was only there temporarily until they could place me in a larger youth home. After I left them I read my Bible daily, but as time wore on, the fights and the violence at this youth home and no contact with people who knew the "truth" I started to become what I was; however, I could not ignore the truth! I became miserable and when I finally left that youth home and no longer a ward of the court, I started to attend church, I am told "if you are not speaking in tongues you are not saved", turn on the TV preachers and they are speaking in tongues and healing the sick, etc and then I would wonder if there is something wrong with me because I don't. My problem then was reading my Bible as a study, not just reading. Not seeking to find out the meaning of what the text was saying. Just listening to people on TV or preachers who have not really been trained to teach. I was so confused because my gut told me something is not right. Also in the back of my mind is the first warning from Jesus was to beware of deception. I mean who am i to doubt that preacher on TV?
  • Chris - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Page 2.

    Yet, I don't hold as some do, that all the Gifts (at least those such as Tongues, Healing & Miracles) have ceased. 1 Cor 13:8-10 is usually given in support that all these are no more since "that which is perfect comes": probably they're referring to the complete Word of God or the full establishment of Christ's Church when those 'spectacular' Gifts are no longer warranted. I'm not convinced about such a stance as I just don't have enough from the Word to support this. The verse could well speak of what we know & do "in part" now will one day in the future be fully known when there will be no further need of such manifestations. I do admit that we see a lot of false proofs, but can we say with all certainty that the Spirit has ceased altogether in His demonstration of His Power to the Church & the World? Some have even attributed these manifestations to the work of the Devil; this is very sad & grievous as the caution for 'blaspheming' e.g. Matthew 12:31, is when some applied the works of the Holy Spirit of God to Satan. Apart from one example that I heard of, where an actual unlearned language was spoken for the blessing of the Church, but the brother was soon pulled back down as there was in their midst one who actually spoke & understood that language. The message was satanic which blasphemed the Deity rather than glorifying him. But we need to take care as to how we view such manifestations & also in understanding the Scriptures.
  • Chris - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Page 1.

    Those are great observations Spike4187. Indeed, the 'other tongues' referred to in the Bible were known languages, but unlearned by the speaker. We need to bear in mind that the initial pouring out of spiritual gifts (from Pentecost to the early Church) was essentially for signs to unbelievers & for the establishment of this new Church: 1 Cor 14:21-22, "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

    It seems clear that the Gift of other Tongues was for a purpose & not to be regarded as a criterion for proof of regeneration as is sometimes taught & believed. Even if that gift, which was for the convincing of the unbelievers, continued (as seen within the Churches), then there was teaching for how it was performed. 1 Cor 14:12-28 speaks about this. If the Spirit prompted one to give a word of exhortation in 'another tongue', it is clear that the Spirit will alert the one who is gifted with it or with the gift of 'Interpretation', to shed light & meaning. And yes, 'tongues' were always a language & not babble; saying that the 'babble' may be a now defunct language or a heavenly language, doesn't hold water with Scripture. Then 1 Cor 13:1 may be quoted by them: "tongues of men & angels" in support: yet Paul is illustrating that even if he had the ability to speak in earthly & heavenly languages, if love was not evident, there was no profit to having any or all the Gifts.
  • Spike4187 - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Yes, I am glad you mentioned Paul because when I would question a Pastor about Tongues, etc. I would have that particular verse thrown at me. When I would read it though, I see something different. I look at what Paul was saying here as ....what is the word.....hyperbole! such as if Paul was writing a letter to a church in our time and wrote something like this.......If I could run 200 miles without stopping and then leap a tall building in a single bound but not love people It amounts to nothing. If I was a NFL superstar and have achieved all the awards and in the Hall of Fame but don't love people, It is worthless. All my success, all my fame, all my accomplishments, good works are nothing without doing it out of love. Does that seem like the proper understanding of this verse?
  • Chris - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    That was quite a testimony of yours which I greatly rejoiced in reading, yet saddened for all the grief you had to go through as a teenager & as a foster child without the love & nurturing that you should have been your expectation & right. Many of these kids can get quite emotionally scarred as they have no permanent home & no guarantee of real love. The fact that the Lord's Hand was upon you from that earliest stage in your life, even by bringing you into a Christian home to hear & then believe the Gospel, again gives each one outside of Christ a hope of gaining eternal life. And I can see from your comments on this Site, that you have been wonderfully transformed (Romans 12:2) & mature in Christ & in understanding His Word. And that "gut feeling" you had is very often the Holy Spirit alerting us to something that doesn't match up with Scripture. But again, we don't judge the preacher, rather go back into the Word & learn what God, not man, says about the matter.

    To your other comment: yes, that's a great modern & amusing rendering of 1 Corinthians 13:1-3, though of course, the apostle Paul used Love as the preeminent 'Fruit' of the Spirit in the midst of all the 'Gifts' of the Spirit bestowed upon the Church. All His Gifts are useful for the building up of the Church, but if Love for one another & those outside her walls is absent, then all the Gifts manifested are rendered impotent. So, to use this as an example in Paul's accusation of the Corinthians, he was essentially saying that to use the Gift of Tongues without Interpretation may have left a few excited about its manifestation, but left most bereft of knowledge that God had for them. This in itself demonstrated that Love, Agape Love, was not the basis for use of this Gift, but self-gratification & self-edifying & not for the blessing of the Church (1 Corinthians 14:4-5).
  • Richard - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Hello brother. I know your reply was to Chris and I'm sure he'll give you insight.

    For someone to say "you are not saved if you don't speak in tongues" is sad. 1 Corinthians 12:1-31 explains.

    1 Corinthians 13:1-13 explains the excellence of Love.

    God Bless
  • Spike4187 - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Thanks for your response as well. I don't know if you ever experienced one of these Pastors that teach this but I know two. I stopped attending that church so I have no idea if that man still teaches it. There is another Pastor that came to the town I live in and approached me during a High School Football game I was attending. (Its my childrens school and we go to every home game) he started to prophesize to me and said some really nice things so I was flattered and accepted his invitation to attend his church. I was pretty excited nobody ever approached me before in public and started to prophesize to me. I attended and it was a very charismatic church, speaking in tongues, etc. I came to understand by speaking with the Pastor that he was waiting for a kidney transplant and he explained to me that the church he had attended down in West Virginia was having a fasting contest and he had not eaten or drank for days and he was taking aleve to ease his pain from not eating and destroyed his receptors on his kidneys. I thought to myself this guy isn't very smart because most know you don't do that, 2nd, he was cheating anyway by taking something to ease the pain....which defeats the purpose because fasting is denying the flesh but if you take drugs to ease the painful effects of fasting, then why fast at all? Then I thought, he must also not know scripture because when you fast, you are not to let anyone know. I mean what kind of church has a fasting contest? I started to get a bad feeling about this Pastor and I asked him one day what Bible college he went to or if he had any Pastoral training. He said he attended Bible college for one day and quit. The last straw however was when he was up there preaching and made a comment that some people who want to be healed are not healed because they don't believe enough. So here is a man who is waiting on a kidney transplant because he did something really stupid and then has the nerve to tell others that!
  • Richard - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    You are very welcome. I myself have never experienced that from anyone much less a Pastor. As I have only attended one church since last year. Because, to me, the ministry did not really have the right message. Only going there a few times. The praise music/singing before and after the ministry was the best part in my feeling. Also just being around, and talking with, other believers in Christ.

    That does sound very hypocritical about all those things with the person fasting. Your thoughts I also agree with. Isaiah 58 is a great chapter on true fasting. Also your perception of 1 Corinthians 13 is spot on, in your reply to Chris, and exactly as I see it as well. Love others as our Eternal Father loves us.
  • Spike4187 - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Christ, thanks so much for answering my questions and leaving no doubt in my mind that my suspicions were correct. I look forward to any posts you may have in the future as I continue to check out this site. Strange days we live in isn't it? I have one more question for you. The mystery called the Rapture. I have this understanding by reading the Bible that God does not let the righteous suffer with the wicked when he is the one who brings down Judgement. There are many Doctors of Theology that disagree on the "rescue of the church" Some believe in a Pre-Trib rescue, Mid-Trib rescue and then there is the Post-Trib rescue. What I look at about this matter is what God told Abraham before he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He will not let the righteous suffer with the wicked. When I see Theologians debate these theories I never see them refer to the discussion Abraham had with God before he destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah and the other three cities of the plains. We know tribulation is coming, Jesus said himself that only his Father in heaven knows when he will tell Jesus when to come to get the bride (church) I know since Christ sacrificed himself, many Christians have died for the cause of Christ but that is different than God bringing down the hammer. What are your thoughts on what is called the Rapture? this Tribulation period not only is God bringing down the hammer but we read there is a war in heaven. Michael and his Angels are fighting the devil and his fallen angels and they are cast to the earth and we read the devil is furious so not only do you have Satan doing what he will do, but also God punishing mankind for their evil. What is your take on this? Thanks and I hope I am not bothering you by asking you these many questions.
  • Chris - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Page 2.

    Aside from God's Wrath to come, we also have the 'mystery' that Paul speaks about. A Mystery in the Bible is a Truth that has not clearly been revealed beforehand. 1 Cor 15:51: the resurrection of the dead & ascension of the living. Colossians 1:26, 27: Christ abiding in the believer, which specifically is by His Spirit. Romans 11:25: spiritual blindness of Israel until the appointed number of Gentiles are saved. Ephesians 1:9, 10: both Jew & Gentile will be one in Christ. So the Rapture of the Church wasn't revealed before in its fullness (& it didn't need to be), but alluded to by Jesus (John 14:1-3) & now by Paul.

    1 Thes 5:1-10 speaks of the suddenness of Christ's Return (just after Paul spoke in chapter 4 on the Rapture) & therefore our readiness to meet Him. And a further reminder that God hasn't appointed the righteous to wrath (His Anger) but to obtain salvation through His Son. If the Rapture was to take place after the Tribulation, there wouldn't be much need for our readiness & its suddenness, as that could be easily calculated. For us to be ever ready is the impetus for believers to live holy lives & be in a state of readiness. To use your example of warfare: a soldier on the battlefield doesn't slip into his pyjamas & turn on soft music to lull himself to sleep, but is fully clothed in battle dress with his weapon at his side to be ready at the first warning or alarm of trouble.

    And reference to Revelation 12, I am unable to share with all clarity & conviction on this portion. I realize that there are several interpretations about the woman & child & their place in the revelation to John, but knowing that this Book is filled with much imagery & not always with a progressive timeline, I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing anything conclusive & leading you or anyone down the wrong path. I think you'll understand.
  • Chris - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Page 1.

    Thanks for your thoughts Spike, they're appreciated & no bother at all with your questions. I've looked at what you've shared with Richard as well & something I can identify with, i.e. how people can look at the same Scripture & come up with different interpretations resulting sometimes in different applications. Unless, there is someone at the top leading the group & its branches (e.g. the cults, Exclusive Brethren), who promulgates how Scriptures are to be understood, then we have this 'diversity' of interpretations amongst believers. But with any exegesis of the Word whether from one skilled or not, the hearer has to resort back to the Word himself & determine with the Spirit's help & light being given, whether what is shared is supported in the Bible: Acts 17:10, 11.

    And so to with the Rapture of the Church as another teaching that has a wide range of understanding. Each proponent of a particular belief can usually support his position quite well from Scripture, hence this debate that goes on perpetually. I hold to the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church, as I have often presented my case in other discussions here, & from what you have stated now, I see that this is your understanding also. It is clear to me, that whenever God moves His Arm against wickedness, He does so by first moving or removing the righteous. Why would God want to punish or destroy the righteous along with the unrighteous? We have already been judged for our sins at the Cross & now declared righteous only through His Son. Is a further judgement warranted or even supported in Scripture? You've quoted this 'moving' of Lot & his family from Sodom; you also have the 'removal' of Noah & his family from the dry Earth. And it will also be for the righteous on the Earth, that salvation from God's Anger will also come to us that which will be poured upon the unbelieving.
  • Spike4187 - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    I thank you Chris for your wisdom in response to my questions. If I may just ask you one more. Tithing. This again is another subject some disagree on. I cannot find any scripture in the New Testament that commands us to give ten percent of what we earn to the church. What I have found however is what Paul tells us. We are to give what the Lord has put in our hearts to give, not out of compulsion but out of a cheerful generous heart. Many preachers beat their congregations over the head with Malachi. But when you read Malachi, God tells a prophet to go to the Jewish people and tell them they are robbing God. I understand the Levites were not allowed to own land or have businesses and therefore people needed to give money to support the priests and their families and they were not doing that. So God sent the prophet to warn them.

    What Paul tells us sounds like something Jesus would say to the people of the New Covenant. You give what is in your heart, you don't do it because of compulsion, for example, I made a thousand dollars therefore I must give 100 dollars. I must give exactly that amount and when some try to follow this alleged rule, they have a hard time giving cheerfully and generously. It becomes a mathematical equation and for most families that live paycheck to paycheck it places a burden on them. I think Jesus would rather you give with a cheerful heart what you can generously afford to give happily and also be able to pay your bills and honor the promises you made to your creditors. I know, and I am sure you do as well of people who reluctantly give because they feel they are sinning and robbing God if they don't give their (10) percent and will neglect to pay a bill with the idea that God will provide the means to pay it. God loves a cheerful giver, but many who follow the ten percent rule do not give cheerfully but the contrary, reluctantly and out of compulsion. What are your thoughts on this matter?
  • Chris - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Page 2.

    Looking at 2 Cor 9, Paul spoke about 'ministering to the saints' for which the Corinthians were well spoken of (v2). That which was collected was for those who laboured in the Gospel & those who were needy in the Church. It's not clearly stated but I believe the elders & helpers in the Church had their own professions & were not supported workers: similar to the Brethren Assembly setup now, so that they were not a financial burden to any. Yet, Paul does speak about both liberal giving & also giving from the heart cheerfully (vv 6,7). So there seems to be a balance of giving for someone's needs but with a mind convinced of the importance of doing so.

    Tithing may be a good guide, but sometimes the Lord may lay (& enable) one to give over & above that amount & not be restrained by tithing. So I wouldn't teach tithing except to use it as God's guidance for Israel & a lead in for believers now to be sensitive to the needs of the Church & others, giving according as the Lord has prospered them. This challenge should be the motivation for giving, according to one's faith, ability & burden. I think we might find that more than 10% would be given for the support of the Church & spread of the Gospel in this way rather than by compulsion, which as you say, may be a grievous burden for some. Not everyone has that faith to overextend themselves in giving; but as they mature & prove the Lord faithful in other areas of their lives & being convinced in their hearts that others have a greater need than them, there may just be a special work of Grace in their hearts & lives.
  • Chris - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Page 1.

    You bring up some great questions Spike that have not only been discussed extensively on this Site but have also been the cause for much heated debate. Tithing, as with keeping the Sabbath & a meticulous adherence to the Ten Commandments are some of these subjects. But tithing is a worthy subject as, I agree, it is readily taught right from Sunday School to the pulpit. And I believe you're correct in quoting 2 Corinthians chapter 9 to rather support one's liberal & happy disposition in giving rather than the legal constraints of tithing.

    Now I don't say that Tithing is wrong in itself as I find that to an enquirer or a new believer, it provides some clarity & guidance as to this mysterious function within Christ's Body. The LORD instituted it (Deuteronomy 12:11) as an appropriate percentage of one's profit from the field, livestock, etc. which involved both for support for the Levites (& in the NT the needy of the Church), but also exercised one's heart in sacrificial giving & identifying with those that were less fortunate. I do keep it in the back of my mind when giving; realizing that giving of one's substance is not just for Church needs, but also for Missions, special projects, & to those that the Spirit lays upon one's heart.
  • Brother dan - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Spike4187

    Many church's today treat the church/congregation as a business, and this is in total opposition to Christ's teaching. The tithing, including the 10% rule is a way for the preachers to get gullible christians to feed their greed. I would not give anything to a church like this. Many church's and pastor's are getting bigger and richer everyday. I'm not going to feed a Beast like that.

    I agree with you, we should give from the heart to those who are in need. We should give to People that you see IN REAL LIFE that are really in need. Those are the one's that Jesus wants us to help. Not rich church's and rich pastors to live opulent lives.

    Too many Christians feed the Beast/Church and the pastors that are wolves.

    Proverbs 22:9

    "He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor."
  • Spike4187 - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    To continue: Kenneth Copeland said in church that God was the biggest failure of the Bible. How can anyone say such a thing? It is hard for me to even type those words and this man has his own airport, owns several planes, lives in a giant house and in fact, looks demon possessed. Yet, people support him financially. The money just rolls in. He is an absolute quack and laughs at the ignorant people who give to him as the armored truck takes his money to the bank. Jesse Duplantis, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer, etc. What good they do is just for appearances, they spread a poisonous false gospel that does nothing but make people doubt the Christ. But you know what? People really are to blame, they need to take seriously what Jesus told us, to meditate on the word, study it, absorb it and like metal being refined in a pot, the bad stuff separates from the good and you can easily spot it. The Holy Spirit within you will send out the warning in your heart and or gut and you will be able to discern. It helps when you have confirmation from other Spiritual leaders, hence asking Chris all these questions I have been asking him. Now Pastors of large churches have much to do, they can't work a full time job or even a part time job because it seems to me when you have a large congregation, you have all kinds of work to do. They need to be paid so they can take care of their bills and their families, Preachers such as the ones I mentioned above and there are many, many more care nothing about God, in fact, I think they hate him. They only care about enriching themselves by feeding on the desperation of people. LIke Jesus warned of the Pharisees, "surely they will have their reward"
  • Brother dan - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Hi Spike,

    Yes, I agree with your observation of these very popular ministers. Worldly possessions and money drive their false teachings.

    Today, I believe Jesus would tell all of these ministers exactly what he told the young man in Matthew 19:21

    "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." How many ministers do you know that would do this?

    Trust Jesus here...

    Matthew 7:15

    "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

    Today, it's not only the large Mega church's, it is the majority of most church's that are NOT following accurate bible doctrine.

    If the church's focus is more on tithes/money then I would run the other way.

    Matthew 7:20-23

    20
    Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Follow the bible...and your heart! It will not let you down!

    God Bless.
  • Annabeth Morris - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    True!!!

    Be saber be vigilant the adversary, the devil as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour...

    Woe unto the pastors who lead my sheep astray...
  • Spike4187 - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Dan. I understand what you are saying. For example, Benny Hinn is a famous television preacher. He would have these healing crusades and you would see people claiming to be healed when in fact they were not. His ministry was investigated and all those that claimed to be healed of cancer have died. People who followed his crusades from city to city with real infirmities were ignored while others were healed who were not really paralyzed at all. When desperate people are searching for miracles and get a scent of or hear its happening here or there they flock to these places and dish out lots of money. Benny Hinn was raking in a lot of cash and was living like a King. I remember one television preacher was on TV. He looks at the camera and says "if you need a big miracle, you have to sew a big seed" I mean the audacity to sell healing or miracles on television. I believe these men have some explaining to do when they stand before God. As I mature as a Christian and not just read my Bible but study it, I find these people easy now to spot. They fly around in jet airplanes, say outrages things about God and I am amazed that people still sit there and listen, laugh, clap and encourage the false preacher to continue!!!!!!! But then again, the Bible tells us that in the latter days, people won't adhere to sound doctrine but will run around flocking to places that say things they want to hear. These big churches are shows, its all about feelings not substance. False miracles, etc.

    I know our Lord still heals people, still raises the dead when one of his children asks him to. Not like we saw in the early church but here and there as he performs his will and answers prayers in conformity to his will. We can ask our Lord for healing, sometimes he does heal, sometimes he does not. but you don't see it like you did in the early church where Jesus and the apostles would heal all brought to him and them. I will continue on another post.
  • Spike4187 - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Richard, thanks for your response. I appreciate the feedback I have received from Chris and yourself. I mean, I have been to several different churches in various states from when I was a soldier and afterward. I have never doubted people on television who preach, or churches I have walked into looking for spiritual guidance. What amazes me during my Christian walk is you can have two learned men, Doctors of Theology and yet disagree on the meaning of the same text!! What is the average dude like myself to do in a dilemma like that? I have come to a point now where I actually sit down and not just read the Bible, but study it and I get angry that I did not do it sooner. When I ask Chris about certain things that have bothered me and my suspicions are confirmed I think.....man, I have wasted years listening to these folks. I mean I was young but it led to adulthood where I should have wised up and did my research like Christ tells us to. It's my fault for being a little gullible and I should have been reading the Bible and studying it.
  • Stanjett - in Reply on 2 Samuel 1
    Better late than never. Look at the thief on the cross, he at the very end of his life chose to believe and when he died, he went to paradise. But do not wait that long. Now is the day. Repent now don't wait to the last minute.


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