You bring up some great questions Spike that have not only been discussed extensively on this Site but have also been the cause for much heated debate. Tithing, as with keeping the Sabbath & a meticulous adherence to the Ten Commandments are some of these subjects. But tithing is a worthy subject as, I agree, it is readily taught right from Sunday School to the pulpit. And I believe you're correct in quoting 2 Corinthians chapter 9 to rather support one's liberal & happy disposition in giving rather than the legal constraints of tithing.
Now I don't say that Tithing is wrong in itself as I find that to an enquirer or a new believer, it provides some clarity & guidance as to this mysterious function within Christ's Body. The LORD instituted it ( Deut 12:11) as an appropriate percentage of one's profit from the field, livestock, etc. which involved both for support for the Levites (& in the NT the needy of the Church), but also exercised one's heart in sacrificial giving & identifying with those that were less fortunate. I do keep it in the back of my mind when giving; realizing that giving of one's substance is not just for Church needs, but also for Missions, special projects, & to those that the Spirit lays upon one's heart.
Many church's today treat the church/congregation as a business, and this is in total opposition to Christ's teaching. The tithing, including the 10% rule is a way for the preachers to get gullible christians to feed their greed. I would not give anything to a church like this. Many church's and pastor's are getting bigger and richer everyday. I'm not going to feed a Beast like that.
I agree with you, we should give from the heart to those who are in need. We should give to People that you see IN REAL LIFE that are really in need. Those are the one's that Jesus wants us to help. Not rich church's and rich pastors to live opulent lives.
Too many Christians feed the Beast/Church and the pastors that are wolves.
Proverbs 22:9
"He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor."
I thank you Chris for your wisdom in response to my questions. If I may just ask you one more. Tithing. This again is another subject some disagree on. I cannot find any scripture in the New Testament that commands us to give ten percent of what we earn to the church. What I have found however is what Paul tells us. We are to give what the Lord has put in our hearts to give, not out of compulsion but out of a cheerful generous heart. Many preachers beat their congregations over the head with Malachi. But when you read Malachi, God tells a prophet to go to the Jewish people and tell them they are robbing God. I understand the Levites were not allowed to own land or have businesses and therefore people needed to give money to support the priests and their families and they were not doing that. So God sent the prophet to warn them.
What Paul tells us sounds like something Jesus would say to the people of the New Covenant. You give what is in your heart, you don't do it because of compulsion, for example, I made a thousand dollars therefore I must give 100 dollars. I must give exactly that amount and when some try to follow this alleged rule, they have a hard time giving cheerfully and generously. It becomes a mathematical equation and for most families that live paycheck to paycheck it places a burden on them. I think Jesus would rather you give with a cheerful heart what you can generously afford to give happily and also be able to pay your bills and honor the promises you made to your creditors. I know, and I am sure you do as well of people who reluctantly give because they feel they are sinning and robbing God if they don't give their (10) percent and will neglect to pay a bill with the idea that God will provide the means to pay it. God loves a cheerful giver, but many who follow the ten percent rule do not give cheerfully but the contrary, reluctantly and out of compulsion. What are your thoughts on this matter?
We generally have governments who wants to maintain separation of religion from politics. However, from the Middle Ages, it was the government/kings that wanted to control the religious aspects of society, claiming that they had the divine right to do so. Then in medieval Europe, it was the Pope who demanded authority of the Church over the State but in the West (i.e. not popish Europe), governments still exercised some control over the Church.
Then in the Protestant Reformation, it was Martin Luther who brought in the doctrine of the two kingdoms: the start of separation of the Church & State, where it was proposed that the State could not have any authority over the Church. And later (in the American context), Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter, "The Wall of Separation between Church & State" to the Danbury Baptist Assoc. to assure them that the U.S. Bill of Rights prevented the establishment of a national Church, so they had no concerns about government interference to their religious freedoms. So in that letter to the Association in 1802, Jefferson referenced the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, & I quote:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of govt. reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"; thus building a wall of separation between Church and State in the U.S.
And from that, many countries have adopted a similar position of separation. So, maybe your question is how can religion (i.e. knowledge & worship of God) be excluded from the State (politics). The above is one reason & the other, in my perception, is their rejection of anything of God to be incorporated into the law, politics & their thinking.
Aside from God's Wrath to come, we also have the 'mystery' that Paul speaks about. A Mystery in the Bible is a Truth that has not clearly been revealed beforehand. 1 Cor 15:51: the resurrection of the dead & ascension of the living. Col 1:26, 27: Christ abiding in the believer, which specifically is by His Spirit. Rom 11:25: spiritual blindness of Israel until the appointed number of Gentiles are saved. Eph 1:9, 10: both Jew & Gentile will be one in Christ. So the Rapture of the Church wasn't revealed before in its fullness (& it didn't need to be), but alluded to by Jesus ( Jn 14:1-3) & now by Paul.
1 Thes 5:1-10 speaks of the suddenness of Christ's Return (just after Paul spoke in chapter 4 on the Rapture) & therefore our readiness to meet Him. And a further reminder that God hasn't appointed the righteous to wrath (His Anger) but to obtain salvation through His Son. If the Rapture was to take place after the Tribulation, there wouldn't be much need for our readiness & its suddenness, as that could be easily calculated. For us to be ever ready is the impetus for believers to live holy lives & be in a state of readiness. To use your example of warfare: a soldier on the battlefield doesn't slip into his pyjamas & turn on soft music to lull himself to sleep, but is fully clothed in battle dress with his weapon at his side to be ready at the first warning or alarm of trouble.
And reference to Revelation 12, I am unable to share with all clarity & conviction on this portion. I realize that there are several interpretations about the woman & child & their place in the revelation to John, but knowing that this Book is filled with much imagery & not always with a progressive timeline, I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing anything conclusive & leading you or anyone down the wrong path. I think you'll understand.
Thanks for your thoughts Spike, they're appreciated & no bother at all with your questions. I've looked at what you've shared with Richard as well & something I can identify with, i.e. how people can look at the same Scripture & come up with different interpretations resulting sometimes in different applications. Unless, there is someone at the top leading the group & its branches (e.g. the cults, Exclusive Brethren), who promulgates how Scriptures are to be understood, then we have this 'diversity' of interpretations amongst believers. But with any exegesis of the Word whether from one skilled or not, the hearer has to resort back to the Word himself & determine with the Spirit's help & light being given, whether what is shared is supported in the Bible: Acts 17:10, 11.
And so to with the Rapture of the Church as another teaching that has a wide range of understanding. Each proponent of a particular belief can usually support his position quite well from Scripture, hence this debate that goes on perpetually. I hold to the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church, as I have often presented my case in other discussions here, & from what you have stated now, I see that this is your understanding also. It is clear to me, that whenever God moves His Arm against wickedness, He does so by first moving or removing the righteous. Why would God want to punish or destroy the righteous along with the unrighteous? We have already been judged for our sins at the Cross & now declared righteous only through His Son. Is a further judgement warranted or even supported in Scripture? You've quoted this 'moving' of Lot & his family from Sodom; you also have the 'removal' of Noah & his family from the dry Earth. And it will also be for the righteous on the Earth, that salvation from God's Anger will also come to us that which will be poured upon the unbelieving.
Christ, thanks so much for answering my questions and leaving no doubt in my mind that my suspicions were correct. I look forward to any posts you may have in the future as I continue to check out this site. Strange days we live in isn't it? I have one more question for you. The mystery called the Rapture. I have this understanding by reading the Bible that God does not let the righteous suffer with the wicked when he is the one who brings down Judgement. There are many Doctors of Theology that disagree on the "rescue of the church" Some believe in a Pre-Trib rescue, Mid-Trib rescue and then there is the Post-Trib rescue. What I look at about this matter is what God told Abraham before he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He will not let the righteous suffer with the wicked. When I see Theologians debate these theories I never see them refer to the discussion Abraham had with God before he destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah and the other three cities of the plains. We know tribulation is coming, Jesus said himself that only his Father in heaven knows when he will tell Jesus when to come to get the bride (church) I know since Christ sacrificed himself, many Christians have died for the cause of Christ but that is different than God bringing down the hammer. What are your thoughts on what is called the Rapture? this Tribulation period not only is God bringing down the hammer but we read there is a war in heaven. Michael and his Angels are fighting the devil and his fallen angels and they are cast to the earth and we read the devil is furious so not only do you have Satan doing what he will do, but also God punishing mankind for their evil. What is your take on this? Thanks and I hope I am not bothering you by asking you these many questions.
Richard, thanks for your response. I appreciate the feedback I have received from Chris and yourself. I mean, I have been to several different churches in various states from when I was a soldier and afterward. I have never doubted people on television who preach, or churches I have walked into looking for spiritual guidance. What amazes me during my Christian walk is you can have two learned men, Doctors of Theology and yet disagree on the meaning of the same text!! What is the average dude like myself to do in a dilemma like that? I have come to a point now where I actually sit down and not just read the Bible, but study it and I get angry that I did not do it sooner. When I ask Chris about certain things that have bothered me and my suspicions are confirmed I think.....man, I have wasted years listening to these folks. I mean I was young but it led to adulthood where I should have wised up and did my research like Christ tells us to. It's my fault for being a little gullible and I should have been reading the Bible and studying it.
That was quite a testimony of yours which I greatly rejoiced in reading, yet saddened for all the grief you had to go through as a teenager & as a foster child without the love & nurturing that you should have been your expectation & right. Many of these kids can get quite emotionally scarred as they have no permanent home & no guarantee of real love. The fact that the Lord's Hand was upon you from that earliest stage in your life, even by bringing you into a Christian home to hear & then believe the Gospel, again gives each one outside of Christ a hope of gaining eternal life. And I can see from your comments on this Site, that you have been wonderfully transformed ( Rom 12:2) & mature in Christ & in understanding His Word. And that "gut feeling" you had is very often the Holy Spirit alerting us to something that doesn't match up with Scripture. But again, we don't judge the preacher, rather go back into the Word & learn what God, not man, says about the matter.
To your other comment: yes, that's a great modern & amusing rendering of 1 Corinthians 13:1-3, though of course, the apostle Paul used Love as the preeminent 'Fruit' of the Spirit in the midst of all the 'Gifts' of the Spirit bestowed upon the Church. All His Gifts are useful for the building up of the Church, but if Love for one another & those outside her walls is absent, then all the Gifts manifested are rendered impotent. So, to use this as an example in Paul's accusation of the Corinthians, he was essentially saying that to use the Gift of Tongues without Interpretation may have left a few excited about its manifestation, but left most bereft of knowledge that God had for them. This in itself demonstrated that Love, Agape Love, was not the basis for use of this Gift, but self-gratification & self-edifying & not for the blessing of the Church ( 1 Cor 14:4-5).
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Yet, I don't hold as some do, that all the Gifts (at least those such as Tongues, Healing & Miracles) have ceased. 1 Cor 13:8-10 is usually given in support that all these are no more since "that which is perfect comes": probably they're referring to the complete Word of God or the full establishment of Christ's Church when those 'spectacular' Gifts are no longer warranted. I'm not convinced about such a stance as I just don't have enough from the Word to support this. The verse could well speak of what we know & do "in part" now will one day in the future be fully known when there will be no further need of such manifestations. I do admit that we see a lot of false proofs, but can we say with all certainty that the Spirit has ceased altogether in His demonstration of His Power to the Church & the World? Some have even attributed these manifestations to the work of the Devil; this is very sad & grievous as the caution for 'blaspheming' e.g. Matthew 12:31, is when some applied the works of the Holy Spirit of God to Satan. Apart from one example that I heard of, where an actual unlearned language was spoken for the blessing of the Church, but the brother was soon pulled back down as there was in their midst one who actually spoke & understood that language. The message was satanic which blasphemed the Deity rather than glorifying him. But we need to take care as to how we view such manifestations & also in understanding the Scriptures.
You are very welcome. I myself have never experienced that from anyone much less a Pastor. As I have only attended one church since last year. Because, to me, the ministry did not really have the right message. Only going there a few times. The praise music/singing before and after the ministry was the best part in my feeling. Also just being around, and talking with, other believers in Christ.
That does sound very hypocritical about all those things with the person fasting. Your thoughts I also agree with. Isaiah 58 is a great chapter on true fasting. Also your perception of 1 Corinthians 13 is spot on, in your reply to Chris, and exactly as I see it as well. Love others as our Eternal Father loves us.
Thanks for your response as well. I don't know if you ever experienced one of these Pastors that teach this but I know two. I stopped attending that church so I have no idea if that man still teaches it. There is another Pastor that came to the town I live in and approached me during a High School Football game I was attending. (Its my childrens school and we go to every home game) he started to prophesize to me and said some really nice things so I was flattered and accepted his invitation to attend his church. I was pretty excited nobody ever approached me before in public and started to prophesize to me. I attended and it was a very charismatic church, speaking in tongues, etc. I came to understand by speaking with the Pastor that he was waiting for a kidney transplant and he explained to me that the church he had attended down in West Virginia was having a fasting contest and he had not eaten or drank for days and he was taking aleve to ease his pain from not eating and destroyed his receptors on his kidneys. I thought to myself this guy isn't very smart because most know you don't do that, 2nd, he was cheating anyway by taking something to ease the pain....which defeats the purpose because fasting is denying the flesh but if you take drugs to ease the painful effects of fasting, then why fast at all? Then I thought, he must also not know scripture because when you fast, you are not to let anyone know. I mean what kind of church has a fasting contest? I started to get a bad feeling about this Pastor and I asked him one day what Bible college he went to or if he had any Pastoral training. He said he attended Bible college for one day and quit. The last straw however was when he was up there preaching and made a comment that some people who want to be healed are not healed because they don't believe enough. So here is a man who is waiting on a kidney transplant because he did something really stupid and then has the nerve to tell others that!
Yes, I am glad you mentioned Paul because when I would question a Pastor about Tongues, etc. I would have that particular verse thrown at me. When I would read it though, I see something different. I look at what Paul was saying here as ....what is the word.....hyperbole! such as if Paul was writing a letter to a church in our time and wrote something like this.......If I could run 200 miles without stopping and then leap a tall building in a single bound but not love people It amounts to nothing. If I was a NFL superstar and have achieved all the awards and in the Hall of Fame but don't love people, It is worthless. All my success, all my fame, all my accomplishments, good works are nothing without doing it out of love. Does that seem like the proper understanding of this verse?
I have to ask these questions because I wonder, am I the only one out there that thinks these things? I mean, I was 15 when I came to know Christ in this one foster home where the people who took me in temporarily, called themselves Christians. Out of all the families I had lived with, this was the most peaceful and loving home I had ever experienced. Back then, I believed in the God of the Bible, but I did not know of the significance of Jesus. I had no understanding of who he actually is. The foster mom taught me and explained it to me as she showed me the Bible. Suddenly it was like a light came on and I knew. I knew I needed him to save me. I prayed with her and I became converted. My whole attitude towards the world changed. I no longer hated the world and wanted to destroy all that I saw as I ran around in the night creating mischief. It totally changed my outlook. Of course I was only there temporarily until they could place me in a larger youth home. After I left them I read my Bible daily, but as time wore on, the fights and the violence at this youth home and no contact with people who knew the "truth" I started to become what I was; however, I could not ignore the truth! I became miserable and when I finally left that youth home and no longer a ward of the court, I started to attend church, I am told "if you are not speaking in tongues you are not saved", turn on the TV preachers and they are speaking in tongues and healing the sick, etc and then I would wonder if there is something wrong with me because I don't. My problem then was reading my Bible as a study, not just reading. Not seeking to find out the meaning of what the text was saying. Just listening to people on TV or preachers who have not really been trained to teach. I was so confused because my gut told me something is not right. Also in the back of my mind is the first warning from Jesus was to beware of deception. I mean who am i to doubt that preacher on TV?
I also share your concern for those with the Gift of Healing. Again, I think the same principles of care & concern needs to be adopted. Especially, on the mission field where God's servants are labouring under very difficult spiritual environments where Satan has a firm grip, the moving of the Spirit in areas of healing & miracles can be seen as testimony of the Power of God & thus openness to the Gospel. Your example of Timothy's stomach & other infirmities, as well as Paul himself who had a thorn in his flesh which he besought the Lord for healing three times ( 2 Cor 12:8) are good examples of the sudden apparent cessation of this important spiritual gift among believers.
I hope that some of these thoughts are useful to the end that we consider one another in godly love yet in gentleness reprove those that err from the Truth & set them on the right path.
Yet, I don't hold as some do, that all the Gifts (at least those such as Tongues, Healing & Miracles) have ceased. 1 Cor 13:8-10 is usually given in support that all these are no more since "that which is perfect comes": probably they're referring to the complete Word of God or the full establishment of Christ's Church when those 'spectacular' Gifts are no longer warranted. I'm not convinced about such a stance as I just don't have enough from the Word to support this. The verse could well speak of what we know & do "in part" now will one day in the future be fully known when there will be no further need of such manifestations. I do admit that we see a lot of false proofs, but can we say with all certainty that the Spirit has ceased altogether in His demonstration of His Power to the Church & the World? Some have even attributed these manifestations to the work of the Devil; this is very sad & grievous as the caution for 'blaspheming' e.g. Mt 12:31, is when some applied the works of the Holy Spirit of God to Satan. Apart from one example that I heard of, where an actual unlearned language was spoken for the blessing of the Church, but the brother was soon pulled back down as there was in their midst one who actually spoke & understood that language. The message was satanic which blasphemed the Deity rather than glorifying him. But we need to take care as to how we view such manifestations & also in understanding the Scriptures.
Those are great observations Spike4187. Indeed, the 'other tongues' referred to in the Bible were known languages, but unlearned by the speaker. We need to bear in mind that the initial pouring out of spiritual gifts (from Pentecost to the early Church) was essentially for signs to unbelievers & for the establishment of this new Church: 1 Cor 14:21-22, "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
It seems clear that the Gift of other Tongues was for a purpose & not to be regarded as a criterion for proof of regeneration as is sometimes taught & believed. Even if that gift, which was for the convincing of the unbelievers, continued (as seen within the Churches), then there was teaching for how it was performed. 1 Cor 14:12-28 speaks about this. If the Spirit prompted one to give a word of exhortation in 'another tongue', it is clear that the Spirit will alert the one who is gifted with it or with the gift of 'Interpretation', to shed light & meaning. And yes, 'tongues' were always a language & not babble; saying that the 'babble' may be a now defunct language or a heavenly language, doesn't hold water with Scripture. Then 1 Cor 13:1 may be quoted by them: "tongues of men & angels" in support: yet Paul is illustrating that even if he had the ability to speak in earthly & heavenly languages, if love was not evident, there was no profit to having any or all the Gifts.
Thanks Chris! Tell me, what are your thoughts on "gifts off the spirit" I have been to churches that say "you are not saved if you don't speak in tongues. (which translated from the Greek is known Languages) During the event of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came upon the believers of Jesus, they begin to speak in other Languages (tongues) and we know it was known languages because the Bible tells us there were devout Jews form all over the known world at the time who were in Jerusalem at the time and heard the "unlearned me" speaking perfectly in their language! Seems to be its not some unknown babel or some special heavenly language but an actual language that is known. Now, the gift of healing where you see in the New Testament where Jesus raised the dead, healed the blind, the paralyzed walked, etc. After the day of Pentecost, you see the disciples of performing the same miracles. It seems later in the lives of the Apostles however, Paul writes a letter to Timothy and tells him to not only drink water but drink a little wine for his frequent stomach troubles. Why wouldn't Paul just heal him? Today the most notable faith healers have turned out to be frauds. But if in fact there were any out there who could lay hands on people and they become healed, don't you think they would go to the nearest children's hospital and clear it out? What are your thoughts on this?
An excellent post Spike4187. You have understood 2 Sam 1:26 accurately, while homosexuals & the cultural arts have depicted King David as soft & effeminate probably based on this verse alone. "Passing the love of women" in this context can only be understood as 'going beyond the physical expressions of love as would be shown to women", NOT "loving men instead of women". So it should be seen as a love that was entirely different to that which is proposed by these others. In any case, other Scriptures that reveal the mind of God towards such deviant behaviour, both in the OT & NT, should give ample confirmation that such a relationship could never be condoned, only viewed as sinful. Yet, under the Mercy of God, all sinners can be saved if only they acknowledged their sin & turned away from it thereby receiving Grace to live according to God's Holy Standards.
And such a love, as depicted in 2 Samuel & as you have given a great example, in the midst of battle, is a love/friendship forged on proven trust, commitment, reliability, honesty, sound advice, faithfulness, a listening ear & a sensitive heart. Sometimes, this type of love might even go beyond the family home & goes so deep, that the friendship could even echo the verse: "..there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother." Prov 18:24b. Hope your next meeting with her may see more of the Work of God in her mind & understanding, resulting from your sharing & prayers for her.
Years ago I was visiting an old friend from my school days. She and I became friends in 4th grade. She had become a Lesbian. I spoke with her about my concern for her soul and I discussed with her what the Lord tells us through his word. Her response was verse 26. "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. " Being a soldier at the time and serving with a group of men in which we had done many dangerous things together as our Country called us to do, I understand what David was saying here. There is a bond that develops between people who serve in a theater of danger. As we read in the Bible, David was in a theater of danger and Jonathon was his friend, it was a brotherly love that the homosexuals have hijacked and distorted to justify their behavior. The love David talked about is a love that passes the love of women because its not a sexual love, its a love that is forged in the fire of danger, a non judgmental, non superficial, non physical love. The love of a true friend will not fail you, will last forever, will not desert you and will not condemn you, even when you are wrong. That is what David had with Jonathan.
As a true believer and follower of God, we should not find joy in failure or destruction of our enemies. We should mourn their loss and pray for their salvation. Although David was persecuted and mistreated by Saul, he truly mourned his death, just as he mourned the death of his friend Jonathan.
Charley (cont.); I want to add; Saul, like Judas Iscariot, was a man whom the Lord saw as one having great potential; and there was even a time in the newness of his anointing, that Saul was really made another man, and prophesied, and burst out in zeal to avenge the people of God on their enemies. Afterwards however, he did not like any more the things of the Spirit, and turned back in his heart.
Charley; good example of someone being afforded the opportunity, but turning back. Jesus loves us and receives us when we come to Him for mercy and salvation. He is willing to "frankly forgive us all" and give us every benefit of trust, despite our ruined nature and utter weakness and inabilities. Yet it is up to us to WANT His Spirit, and to REALLY BE of the truth, over the normal course of life.
i believe saul was lost how many times in the book of samuel
does it say the spirit of the lord departed from saul, plus
he visited a witch at endor and committed suicide,
he was lost, he started out right but did not end right
once saved always saved lie. heb 6-4-6
Ren; The man lied thinking he would get some kind of reward for telling those things to David; but David saw right through his wicked show, and said to him, "How were you not afraid to raise your hand against the LORD's Anointed?" and that was the reason he was put to death! David was in a position to give sentence against such wickedness. But those in power today refuse to execute God's judgment!
@Brenda I read it the same way as you did.5 And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him.
6 So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.
I believe the other guy was lying and David saw thru it and had him killed. That lie cost him his own life.
You bring up some great questions Spike that have not only been discussed extensively on this Site but have also been the cause for much heated debate. Tithing, as with keeping the Sabbath & a meticulous adherence to the Ten Commandments are some of these subjects. But tithing is a worthy subject as, I agree, it is readily taught right from Sunday School to the pulpit. And I believe you're correct in quoting 2 Corinthians chapter 9 to rather support one's liberal & happy disposition in giving rather than the legal constraints of tithing.
Now I don't say that Tithing is wrong in itself as I find that to an enquirer or a new believer, it provides some clarity & guidance as to this mysterious function within Christ's Body. The LORD instituted it ( Deut 12:11) as an appropriate percentage of one's profit from the field, livestock, etc. which involved both for support for the Levites (& in the NT the needy of the Church), but also exercised one's heart in sacrificial giving & identifying with those that were less fortunate. I do keep it in the back of my mind when giving; realizing that giving of one's substance is not just for Church needs, but also for Missions, special projects, & to those that the Spirit lays upon one's heart.
Many church's today treat the church/congregation as a business, and this is in total opposition to Christ's teaching. The tithing, including the 10% rule is a way for the preachers to get gullible christians to feed their greed. I would not give anything to a church like this. Many church's and pastor's are getting bigger and richer everyday. I'm not going to feed a Beast like that.
I agree with you, we should give from the heart to those who are in need. We should give to People that you see IN REAL LIFE that are really in need. Those are the one's that Jesus wants us to help. Not rich church's and rich pastors to live opulent lives.
Too many Christians feed the Beast/Church and the pastors that are wolves.
Proverbs 22:9
"He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor."
What Paul tells us sounds like something Jesus would say to the people of the New Covenant. You give what is in your heart, you don't do it because of compulsion, for example, I made a thousand dollars therefore I must give 100 dollars. I must give exactly that amount and when some try to follow this alleged rule, they have a hard time giving cheerfully and generously. It becomes a mathematical equation and for most families that live paycheck to paycheck it places a burden on them. I think Jesus would rather you give with a cheerful heart what you can generously afford to give happily and also be able to pay your bills and honor the promises you made to your creditors. I know, and I am sure you do as well of people who reluctantly give because they feel they are sinning and robbing God if they don't give their (10) percent and will neglect to pay a bill with the idea that God will provide the means to pay it. God loves a cheerful giver, but many who follow the ten percent rule do not give cheerfully but the contrary, reluctantly and out of compulsion. What are your thoughts on this matter?
Then in the Protestant Reformation, it was Martin Luther who brought in the doctrine of the two kingdoms: the start of separation of the Church & State, where it was proposed that the State could not have any authority over the Church. And later (in the American context), Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter, "The Wall of Separation between Church & State" to the Danbury Baptist Assoc. to assure them that the U.S. Bill of Rights prevented the establishment of a national Church, so they had no concerns about government interference to their religious freedoms. So in that letter to the Association in 1802, Jefferson referenced the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, & I quote:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of govt. reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"; thus building a wall of separation between Church and State in the U.S.
And from that, many countries have adopted a similar position of separation. So, maybe your question is how can religion (i.e. knowledge & worship of God) be excluded from the State (politics). The above is one reason & the other, in my perception, is their rejection of anything of God to be incorporated into the law, politics & their thinking.
Aside from God's Wrath to come, we also have the 'mystery' that Paul speaks about. A Mystery in the Bible is a Truth that has not clearly been revealed beforehand. 1 Cor 15:51: the resurrection of the dead & ascension of the living. Col 1:26, 27: Christ abiding in the believer, which specifically is by His Spirit. Rom 11:25: spiritual blindness of Israel until the appointed number of Gentiles are saved. Eph 1:9, 10: both Jew & Gentile will be one in Christ. So the Rapture of the Church wasn't revealed before in its fullness (& it didn't need to be), but alluded to by Jesus ( Jn 14:1-3) & now by Paul.
1 Thes 5:1-10 speaks of the suddenness of Christ's Return (just after Paul spoke in chapter 4 on the Rapture) & therefore our readiness to meet Him. And a further reminder that God hasn't appointed the righteous to wrath (His Anger) but to obtain salvation through His Son. If the Rapture was to take place after the Tribulation, there wouldn't be much need for our readiness & its suddenness, as that could be easily calculated. For us to be ever ready is the impetus for believers to live holy lives & be in a state of readiness. To use your example of warfare: a soldier on the battlefield doesn't slip into his pyjamas & turn on soft music to lull himself to sleep, but is fully clothed in battle dress with his weapon at his side to be ready at the first warning or alarm of trouble.
And reference to Revelation 12, I am unable to share with all clarity & conviction on this portion. I realize that there are several interpretations about the woman & child & their place in the revelation to John, but knowing that this Book is filled with much imagery & not always with a progressive timeline, I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing anything conclusive & leading you or anyone down the wrong path. I think you'll understand.
Thanks for your thoughts Spike, they're appreciated & no bother at all with your questions. I've looked at what you've shared with Richard as well & something I can identify with, i.e. how people can look at the same Scripture & come up with different interpretations resulting sometimes in different applications. Unless, there is someone at the top leading the group & its branches (e.g. the cults, Exclusive Brethren), who promulgates how Scriptures are to be understood, then we have this 'diversity' of interpretations amongst believers. But with any exegesis of the Word whether from one skilled or not, the hearer has to resort back to the Word himself & determine with the Spirit's help & light being given, whether what is shared is supported in the Bible: Acts 17:10, 11.
And so to with the Rapture of the Church as another teaching that has a wide range of understanding. Each proponent of a particular belief can usually support his position quite well from Scripture, hence this debate that goes on perpetually. I hold to the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church, as I have often presented my case in other discussions here, & from what you have stated now, I see that this is your understanding also. It is clear to me, that whenever God moves His Arm against wickedness, He does so by first moving or removing the righteous. Why would God want to punish or destroy the righteous along with the unrighteous? We have already been judged for our sins at the Cross & now declared righteous only through His Son. Is a further judgement warranted or even supported in Scripture? You've quoted this 'moving' of Lot & his family from Sodom; you also have the 'removal' of Noah & his family from the dry Earth. And it will also be for the righteous on the Earth, that salvation from God's Anger will also come to us that which will be poured upon the unbelieving.
To your other comment: yes, that's a great modern & amusing rendering of 1 Corinthians 13:1-3, though of course, the apostle Paul used Love as the preeminent 'Fruit' of the Spirit in the midst of all the 'Gifts' of the Spirit bestowed upon the Church. All His Gifts are useful for the building up of the Church, but if Love for one another & those outside her walls is absent, then all the Gifts manifested are rendered impotent. So, to use this as an example in Paul's accusation of the Corinthians, he was essentially saying that to use the Gift of Tongues without Interpretation may have left a few excited about its manifestation, but left most bereft of knowledge that God had for them. This in itself demonstrated that Love, Agape Love, was not the basis for use of this Gift, but self-gratification & self-edifying & not for the blessing of the Church ( 1 Cor 14:4-5).
Yet, I don't hold as some do, that all the Gifts (at least those such as Tongues, Healing & Miracles) have ceased. 1 Cor 13:8-10 is usually given in support that all these are no more since "that which is perfect comes": probably they're referring to the complete Word of God or the full establishment of Christ's Church when those 'spectacular' Gifts are no longer warranted. I'm not convinced about such a stance as I just don't have enough from the Word to support this. The verse could well speak of what we know & do "in part" now will one day in the future be fully known when there will be no further need of such manifestations. I do admit that we see a lot of false proofs, but can we say with all certainty that the Spirit has ceased altogether in His demonstration of His Power to the Church & the World? Some have even attributed these manifestations to the work of the Devil; this is very sad & grievous as the caution for 'blaspheming' e.g. Matthew 12:31, is when some applied the works of the Holy Spirit of God to Satan. Apart from one example that I heard of, where an actual unlearned language was spoken for the blessing of the Church, but the brother was soon pulled back down as there was in their midst one who actually spoke & understood that language. The message was satanic which blasphemed the Deity rather than glorifying him. But we need to take care as to how we view such manifestations & also in understanding the Scriptures.
That does sound very hypocritical about all those things with the person fasting. Your thoughts I also agree with. Isaiah 58 is a great chapter on true fasting. Also your perception of 1 Corinthians 13 is spot on, in your reply to Chris, and exactly as I see it as well. Love others as our Eternal Father loves us.
I also share your concern for those with the Gift of Healing. Again, I think the same principles of care & concern needs to be adopted. Especially, on the mission field where God's servants are labouring under very difficult spiritual environments where Satan has a firm grip, the moving of the Spirit in areas of healing & miracles can be seen as testimony of the Power of God & thus openness to the Gospel. Your example of Timothy's stomach & other infirmities, as well as Paul himself who had a thorn in his flesh which he besought the Lord for healing three times ( 2 Cor 12:8) are good examples of the sudden apparent cessation of this important spiritual gift among believers.
I hope that some of these thoughts are useful to the end that we consider one another in godly love yet in gentleness reprove those that err from the Truth & set them on the right path.
Yet, I don't hold as some do, that all the Gifts (at least those such as Tongues, Healing & Miracles) have ceased. 1 Cor 13:8-10 is usually given in support that all these are no more since "that which is perfect comes": probably they're referring to the complete Word of God or the full establishment of Christ's Church when those 'spectacular' Gifts are no longer warranted. I'm not convinced about such a stance as I just don't have enough from the Word to support this. The verse could well speak of what we know & do "in part" now will one day in the future be fully known when there will be no further need of such manifestations. I do admit that we see a lot of false proofs, but can we say with all certainty that the Spirit has ceased altogether in His demonstration of His Power to the Church & the World? Some have even attributed these manifestations to the work of the Devil; this is very sad & grievous as the caution for 'blaspheming' e.g. Mt 12:31, is when some applied the works of the Holy Spirit of God to Satan. Apart from one example that I heard of, where an actual unlearned language was spoken for the blessing of the Church, but the brother was soon pulled back down as there was in their midst one who actually spoke & understood that language. The message was satanic which blasphemed the Deity rather than glorifying him. But we need to take care as to how we view such manifestations & also in understanding the Scriptures.
Those are great observations Spike4187. Indeed, the 'other tongues' referred to in the Bible were known languages, but unlearned by the speaker. We need to bear in mind that the initial pouring out of spiritual gifts (from Pentecost to the early Church) was essentially for signs to unbelievers & for the establishment of this new Church: 1 Cor 14:21-22, "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
It seems clear that the Gift of other Tongues was for a purpose & not to be regarded as a criterion for proof of regeneration as is sometimes taught & believed. Even if that gift, which was for the convincing of the unbelievers, continued (as seen within the Churches), then there was teaching for how it was performed. 1 Cor 14:12-28 speaks about this. If the Spirit prompted one to give a word of exhortation in 'another tongue', it is clear that the Spirit will alert the one who is gifted with it or with the gift of 'Interpretation', to shed light & meaning. And yes, 'tongues' were always a language & not babble; saying that the 'babble' may be a now defunct language or a heavenly language, doesn't hold water with Scripture. Then 1 Cor 13:1 may be quoted by them: "tongues of men & angels" in support: yet Paul is illustrating that even if he had the ability to speak in earthly & heavenly languages, if love was not evident, there was no profit to having any or all the Gifts.
For someone to say "you are not saved if you don't speak in tongues" is sad. 1 Corinthians 12:1-31 explains.
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 explains the excellence of Love.
God Bless
And such a love, as depicted in 2 Samuel & as you have given a great example, in the midst of battle, is a love/friendship forged on proven trust, commitment, reliability, honesty, sound advice, faithfulness, a listening ear & a sensitive heart. Sometimes, this type of love might even go beyond the family home & goes so deep, that the friendship could even echo the verse: "..there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother." Prov 18:24b. Hope your next meeting with her may see more of the Work of God in her mind & understanding, resulting from your sharing & prayers for her.
does it say the spirit of the lord departed from saul, plus
he visited a witch at endor and committed suicide,
he was lost, he started out right but did not end right
once saved always saved lie. heb 6-4-6
6 So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.
I believe the other guy was lying and David saw thru it and had him killed. That lie cost him his own life.