It would be difficult to give some spiritual meaning or significance to you from these chapters, since you will need to read them yourself, asking the Lord to speak to you through your reading of them & in light of what you may be going through in your life.
Another person can only explain the account there, but won't be able to give you the special word to you, unless the Lord directs him. Maybe, you could read those chapters & find something there that seems to warm your heart. And if you don't understand it, maybe we could give the meaning and/or application.
I dreamt someone telling me to read Isiah chapter 42 and chapter 44 so l wanted to know what these chapters might mean in the spiritual realm. Maybe there is something I should know that I am not aware of in the waking life.
I've looked at those Isaiah references you gave & could not find any reference to "dreaming of a Bible verse". Is this what you meant or maybe you have had a verse come to you in a dream? If you can give extra information about what you're thinking.
"Also, if a sinner who did not follow Christ in this life, if he begs for forgiveness and mercy, do you think God has a limitation on his mercy? The picture God you paint is not All Love, and All Merciful, and All Powerful." I referred to this previously, in connection with predestination. But for a Loving, Merciful God casting all who reject Him & His Christ, into fire, then isn't that a Holy attribute of a Just & Lawful God? If we take out punishment from the equation, then what are we left with? And what are we to do with the abundance of Scripture that warns of an eternal damnation & for those Christ gave His Life for, the martyrs who were executed, & for the glorious worth of our salvation that gives us Heaven as our goal & not as those destined to join Satan & his followers in the Lake of Fire?
So, I thank you John for your comments - you've exercised my mind & spirit superbly.
4. "The Fire of God". Once again, the Scriptures cited are relevant in every detail. Then I get to: "if Jesus meant to save all men, and fails to fulfil that promise, he missed the mark, and that would make God a sinner. The whole world is in His hands, not mens hands." I ask, what was that promise that God made & maybe could fail to keep? Was it, that ALL men would be saved? Even if look at Jn 3:16, we see that as a result of God's Love, He sent His Son to be the Saviour for all, but not all would be saved (whoever believes would not perish). We are never told that the Gospel would mean the salvation of all people, but the means by which all would be saved. I could never see Eph 1:10 & Rev 5:13 as applicable to the eventual salvation of all people. As well, then why the need for the preaching of the Gospel, why teach about leading sanctified lives, why give the promise of His Coming, when eventually all (saved & sinner) will be preserved to eternal life?
5. Rom 14:11. If the criminal had to stand before an earthly judge, they will do anything to justify their actions & hopefully find respite from the severity of their sentence. But to stand before our Great & Holy Judge? Their only response would be to fall before Him in full submission to His Glory & full admission to their filthiness before Him, regardless of their eternal destination. No more excuses & no more hypocrisy - "all will stand 'bare' and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do" Heb 4:13.
3. On Predestination. "We don't have true 'Free will' to choose God". Again, I can't disagree with you on this count: after all, He drew us, He convicted us, & He saved us - nothing of ourselves there. That is why, when I hear someone say that he has 'considered many religions & then decided on Christianity', I tremble as to his actual spiritual condition.
"So how can we say men will be subject to eternal damnation when God didn't allow them to believe in him?" So here we have the problem: put another way, a person wants to repent of his many sins & call upon Jesus, but just cannot be saved because God has not predestined him to be His child. Or, would a person who is NOT predestined to salvation, even want to repent & call upon His Name? So such a person, not predestined, by all accounts should not be punished in hell fire as that would be unjust & 'unloving' of God to do. However, could we say that this Omniscient God predestines some to eternal damnation because of their future lives of wilful disobedience & rejection of the Gospel? That is, predestination is contingent upon the response of that carnal nature, of which the Creator God could only know? Jer 1:5; Ps 139:13-16. Each one of us is still responsible for the quality of our lives (predestined or not). God doesn't judge us for what He already knows, but what we do. Our evil acts from reprobate minds then justify our eternal damnation.
John, thank you for your detailed reply & for taking the time to do so. It was very helpful to understand more fully your thoughts on the matters raised with the abundance of Scriptures you cited.
1. I'm in full agreement with the 'two natures': I understand them as you do. The statement you made on your first page, "Not only (is) this a spiritual fire but this fire is essential to being saved, which I believe we are not saved until we have endured to the end", would be the one I would question. I believe that our perseverance till the end IS necessary & is proof of the reality of our salvation, however, we can know NOW that we are saved & that our salvation is not left in the balance until our last breath (e.g. 1 Jn 5:11-13; Jn 5:24, 6:53,54; Rom 6:23). These verses & others show that Eternal Life for those in Christ is their blessed possession NOW & not contingent till the end. However, of course, that we endure to the end is proof of the reality of that salvation. Having worked amongst Muslims, I'm well aware of their uncertainty of salvation until their final stand before Allah. They can do all their required acts & more, but there's no certainty as their works hang in the balance (i.e. with the two angels over each shoulder). For the believer, our salvation is made sure & secure through Christ's death alone & faith in that finished work: so we can be sure now, our joy can be full now & our fight against the dark forces always end in victory. And the final proof of all that is that we finish the course fully ( 2 Tim 4:7).
2. Meaning of 'aion'. I've checked your references & concur with the meaning there of 'eternal' (age lasting/age long). I see no problem with their use whether in 'punishment' or in 'life' in those verses.
About Romans 14:11, do you think some of the most vile sinners that have ever lived, do you think if they know they're about to be tossed into a literal fire forever, do you think they will confess and bow before being thrown in for "eternity"?
If they had free will, they could tell God, "I hate you, I'm not going to bow, your going damn me to torture forever anyway"
Also, if a sinner who did not follow Christ in this life, if he begs for forgiveness and mercy, do you think God has a limitation on his mercy? The picture God you paint is not All Love, and All Merciful, and All Powerful.
Christs death, was more effective than Adam's sin.
Christ is the redeemer of ALL Men, not just believers.
I hope none of this comes off as condescending, that is not my intention.
I only wish to glorify God in his unlimited Love, Mercy and Power
Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe. For our God is a consuming fire.
1 Peter 1:7
So that the tested genuineness of your faith-more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire-may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Daniel 7:9-10
"As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened
This verse refers to a "stream of fire" that came from before God's fiery throne. Is it possible this stream comes from or leads to a..Lake of fire?
In the verses I've provided the scripture clearly teaches us that we are tested by fire, and saved through fire. Jesus' sacrafice on the cross purchased all men, paid for all their sin, and according to the scripture, missing the mark is to sin, and if Jesus meant to save all men, and fails to fufil that promise, he missed the mark, and that would make God a sinner. The whole world is in His hands, not mens hands.
Ephesians 1:10
As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Revelation 5:13
And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
Every creature; that includes everyone on earth throughout all time, there are no exceptions.
2. The words 'Eternity', and 'forever' is a mistranslation that comes from the word 'aion' which means Age, or age abiding, age lasting, or into the ages, not eternity.
If the word aion was translated to eternity every time its used in scripture, it might sound like it works for some verses, but if you consistantly translate it eternity there are many verses that would make no sense.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away to eternal (age lasting) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (age lasting) life
1 Corinthians 3:18
If anyone thinks he is wise in this eternity (age), let him become a fool so that he may become wise.
3. We don't have true 'Free will' to choose God
There is the will of the flesh, and the will of Christ
You either walk by the spirit, or you walk by the flesh.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
So God is the one that allows us to believe in him, we get no credit. We cannot boast that we chose God because we didn't, he chose us. That verse plainly states that.
So how can we say men will be subject to eternal damnation when God didn't allow them to believe in him? God is all loving right? And all powerful, so he has a system in place in which he will purify all men through fire, all will be saved.
God Also hardened Pharaohs heart, which left Pharaoh with no free choice to let the people go. If man had free will; God could not override their will, but he does.
Exodus 4:21
And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Thanks for the reply Chris, I'm happy to have a discussion.
This will be a multi post reply (If this website allows all of them) as there is a lot to unpack with your questions.
It seems there are some principles that need to be established in order for you to understand my position.
1. We have two Natures. There are several names for the two natures all men struggle between.
The new man and the old man, the flesh and the spirit, the carnal mind and the mind of Christ.
Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
God's Law is an expression of his nature, only when walking in the spirit (the new man/nature) can we follow it.
Romans 8:8
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(Which ties into this verse)
Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (This is the non literal fire)
Not only in this a spiritual fire but this fire is essential to being saved, which I believe we are not saved until we have endured to the end.
1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.
Galatians 5:16-17
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Galatians 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
John, just going through your comment & a few questions arose in my mind:
a. what is the Fire of God you speak of? You said that "it's not a literal fire", but I couldn't think of a Scripture that spoke of the type of fire you mentioned.
b. Rom 14:11. I don't think the word 'forced' to confess & bow is what Christians understand when reading that verse (at least, I don't). I see that at the Coming of Christ & in His Reign on Earth, people will not be forced to do anything. Paul said that since we as believers will all stand before Christ's Judgement Seat & have to give account of ourselves, so will all those who are not believers also have to submit & confess to God about their lives & their rejection of His Christ. So, I see rather that we will all be in a state of judicial submission where our appointed time with the Judge has arrived: some to reigning with Christ & others to everlasting damnation.
c. Which then leads to: "a literal fire to burn forever." Can I assume that you see this fire as an allegory? And what of the other Scriptures that speak of it? Your response, should you wish to give it, will help me understand your position better for discussion.
"I will put my Law in their minds, and write it on their hearts;...and they shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them." Jeremiah 24:7
That doesn't sound like an optional statement. God says he will do it, it will happen. In this age or ages to come.
All men who have lived will go through God's fire in the ages to come to burn away their flesh (sin, old man, old nature) the ones who succeed in this age, are the overcomers, the first born, who make it to the first resurrection, and reign with Christ for 1000 years on the Earth.
That is part of our inheritance.
The fire is not literal, it is the fire of God. For example when we deny our fleshly desires, and hear his voice, and heed it, it hurts. To not get your way, and die to your sinful desires and to take up that cross daily, and standing true to him among pagans and withstanding being mocked for walking with him, that is going through the fire.
How can mainstream Christians reconcile Romans 14:11
for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Do Christians really think sinners will be forced to confess and bow? And when they do God will still throw them in a literal fire to burn forever? How ridiculous is that?
I'm thankful we have a Creator that is ALL Loving, ALL Merciful, and All Powerful.
With those traits combined, I really don't think he will let a soul he has created, to be wasted.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
I don't think there are Apostles today , but we do have their writings , the New Testament.
It was said that the faith was already given once in Jude . And contend for it , no need for Apostles or a new doctrine either . We have it in the NT completely.
I agree with Paul 100% and I believe the Bible does not contradict itself.
It is true a woman should not teach out of her womanhood or femininity. When she teaches, she is preaching/teaching not as a woman but as a member of the body of Christ, one together with other men and women. The womanhood in her should keep silent in church and be subject to her husband but the new creature in her cannot certainly be forbidden to speak the Word. In any case it was women who brought the first news of the resurrection and it was a woman (Anna) who blessed the then baby Jesus, speaking in the temple (the church). Was it not a woman who preached to the whole city and brought the whole of Samaria to Christ in John chapter 4? They later graduated in their belief (v42), after they had come to hear of the Lord first hand but their first instance of belief (v39) was at the testimony of the woman! Yes women were considered property in the Jewish traditions but now Christ has come to redeem them that are under the legalistic tendencies and nitty-gritties of the law that we might receive the adoption of sons and now we are all sons of God by faith!
It would be foolish to be legalistic and petty by clinging to do's and don'ts in taking this verse at its literal value; any saved Spirit filled, baptized believer can speak in church for there is neither male nor female but we are all one in Christ Jesus!
Just to put my two cents in, was Paul addressing a specific problem that specific church was having? What was the issue? Paul himself encourages believers to listen to the teaching of the women running some congregations of the time.
Is there too much being made by some of this particular passage? What is the history of it?
As Christians, there is no male or female when it comes to the things of God. Throughout history God has used women in the church as Pastors, Evangelists, Deacons, Elders, Teachers.
Do we sometimes get all tied up in something we shouldn't even be worrying about? Might it be good to keep in mind that we are living under the freedom, both spiritual and social, that we have in Christ? Did Christ save us so we could be bound to laws, regulations, procedures that limit our ability to proclaim His Gospel?
IMO: Don't let petty, legalistic issues like that bound you up, weigh you down and bundle you up in a confusing mess of do's and don'ts. In Christ there is no male or female. The Gospel can be preached and taught and proclaimed by male, female, donkey or rock. What is important is the proclamation of Christ, not whether your dress is too short, your hair too long, your shoes too bright, your tie is tied wrong, you wear jeans and sandals, you are male, female, child or octogenarian.
Clearly, Paul was addressing pagan customs of the time and people that were steeped in ways of doing things that might not have been beneficial to a group of Christians meeting in homes and other venues. He was establishing order in the congregations. But we are living in the 21st Century and things have, of necessity, changed. And change is OK.
We are called to tell people about Christ, not about rules we must follow if we want to be Christians, that is, Spirit filled followers of Christ.
I, for one, don't really understand 1 Timothy 2:12 in its entirety. And there are other things said we don't fully understand. But "I press on!".
"But i suffer not a woman to teach". You have to remember and know that back then women were not taught nor as a whole literate. Women who tried to teach often had no idea to what they were speaking because they were not taught, and that led people astray. Paul would have also known that Deborah was a female prophet who taught the word of God. I believe women can be pastors, but they should not be the sole authority. A female pastor could work with a male pastor or come in for lessons and teaching, but should not be the sole authority in the church unless there is no one else to teach. We are all called to share the word of God. "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection." Since women were not taught Paul was very for the rights of women. Look at it as if you were in school, when a teacher is talking you are to learn and be silent, so that you may hear and understand.
Michelle, the purpose of Paul's letter to the Church in Galatia was because in their midst, were Jews & Gentile believers. There was a group (Judaizers) who still held onto Jewish law & traditions, meaning that both God's Grace & human effort are needed for salvation. Or, in another way, one had to become a Jew before becoming a Christian. Paul said that this was heresy. He goes on in Chap 3 to say that Abraham was justified by faith & not by any works plus faith, so all believers, whoever they are, are God's children: whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free, male or female. There is still an order in the Church to be observed that does not detract from our glorious & equal position in Christ.
God also says that there is neither male or female, Jew or Greek, slave or free man, but that we are all one in Christ Jesus and, further, if we belong to Christ, that we are Abraham's descendants and heirs according to the promise. To preach that women should be silent and not teach or usurp authority over a man is to bring yourself under the bondage of the flesh, because the word teaches us that there is no male or female when you walk in the spirit
Key words.... "But I" not God, but Paul is saying personally himself and gave the reasons why. If a pastor take over a church there may be rules of conduct
from the organization or former pastor. It's always important to know what is God and what is "I". I believe Paul had good reason for this and gave this counsel to Timothy as a young pastor. There are definitely preachers and teachers in the bible like Deborah the prophetess in Judges, Priscilla and Aquila in Acts. Paul was concerned with the women absurbing authority over the man (becoming the pastor or shepherd). Guess what, he was right! In some cases this has happened. Women can not cover the man, but them preaching is not sin.
PPL need to realize that the Woman Paul is refering to is the CHURCH that will be healed in CHILD BIRTH which is the heavenly birth. Thats y he is saying as we have born the image of the earthy we must also bear th image of the Heavenly which is the H.G. A new heart and new spirit is what we need. As the CHURCH IS THE BRIDE of Christ.We are dead to the law by the body of Christ that we should be MARRIED to Another even to him that was raised from the dead that we should bring forth FRUIT (CHILD BIRTH) unto God.The curse started at Adam N Eve but it can only be lifted by CHILD BIRTH,Th child being the H.G. A NEW HEART A NEW SPIRIT I.E YOU ARE MADE CLEAN BY THE WORD/SEED I HAVE SPOKEN UNTO YOU
Paul , in corinthians lays a huge reprimand on them for telling the woman to keep silent in the church, goes so far as to say, if you insist on being ignorant, be ignorant. So in Timothy he is not contradictory. He is speaking about a woman and the man. Those are singular. A man and his wife or Jesus and the church. We know the scriptures say in Christ there is neither male nor female. We also know a man and wife are one, neither male nor female, but both as one. Take the scriptures in their entirety, everything has to fit, if it doesn't it's our understanding that lacks, not Gods word.
RM -- There are were 12 apostles Paul all men, there were 70 Luke 10"17 sent out to preach and heal all men. I have not found in the KJV bible where women were sent out but told to be keepers at home. Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. 1Timothy 5:14
We are all brethren in Christ, none is higher than the other. We can all teach as we are led by the Spirit and the Word of God. A child under the authority of the Word of God can lead, why not a woman? Tradition has placed women in a very unfortunate position which is not according to the will of God who would have all men free. Women are not to be subjected to anyone. God is the head of the woman as well as the man. United in Christ, all should submit to each other, yielding one to another as directed by the Spirit and Word of God. Where the Spirit of God is, there will be harmony. No harmony? Question your individual allegiance.
It behooves us to understand, that the people at the time of the apostles had very real issues like we do today. Timothy, Paul, John, all of them had to address these issues as they arose even as we have to address issues in the church today. We need to apply them to our own situations with wisdom. We need to stop teaching tradition as doctrine.
The curse brought on by sin, that women are subjected to me, is lifted in Jesus. There is neither male nor female, jew nor gentile, bond nor free. Every man who has been made free in Jesus will see woman for what she is, his equal. Jesus set the example first. Mary was allowed to sit in a place reserved only for the most honored of scholars, at the feet of the rabbi. This was to show all present that he did not view women as second class as was the popular view. Please not also that a woman was the first messenger of the gospel. He told Mary to go spread the news of his resurrection.
Church some respond negitivly or ignore what God tells us1Cor14:34-40 He is Love and His Guidlines are for our Good He is not a Male Chovevist. Men are to Love us sacrificialy we are their Helpmates but we are not to be in Authority over them in Marriage or in Church and Preach in Authority to them.But we can share God's Truth to Men Woman and Children and correct error with the Bible or Creation.
Another person can only explain the account there, but won't be able to give you the special word to you, unless the Lord directs him. Maybe, you could read those chapters & find something there that seems to warm your heart. And if you don't understand it, maybe we could give the meaning and/or application.
"Also, if a sinner who did not follow Christ in this life, if he begs for forgiveness and mercy, do you think God has a limitation on his mercy? The picture God you paint is not All Love, and All Merciful, and All Powerful." I referred to this previously, in connection with predestination. But for a Loving, Merciful God casting all who reject Him & His Christ, into fire, then isn't that a Holy attribute of a Just & Lawful God? If we take out punishment from the equation, then what are we left with? And what are we to do with the abundance of Scripture that warns of an eternal damnation & for those Christ gave His Life for, the martyrs who were executed, & for the glorious worth of our salvation that gives us Heaven as our goal & not as those destined to join Satan & his followers in the Lake of Fire?
So, I thank you John for your comments - you've exercised my mind & spirit superbly.
4. "The Fire of God". Once again, the Scriptures cited are relevant in every detail. Then I get to: "if Jesus meant to save all men, and fails to fulfil that promise, he missed the mark, and that would make God a sinner. The whole world is in His hands, not mens hands." I ask, what was that promise that God made & maybe could fail to keep? Was it, that ALL men would be saved? Even if look at Jn 3:16, we see that as a result of God's Love, He sent His Son to be the Saviour for all, but not all would be saved (whoever believes would not perish). We are never told that the Gospel would mean the salvation of all people, but the means by which all would be saved. I could never see Eph 1:10 & Rev 5:13 as applicable to the eventual salvation of all people. As well, then why the need for the preaching of the Gospel, why teach about leading sanctified lives, why give the promise of His Coming, when eventually all (saved & sinner) will be preserved to eternal life?
5. Rom 14:11. If the criminal had to stand before an earthly judge, they will do anything to justify their actions & hopefully find respite from the severity of their sentence. But to stand before our Great & Holy Judge? Their only response would be to fall before Him in full submission to His Glory & full admission to their filthiness before Him, regardless of their eternal destination. No more excuses & no more hypocrisy - "all will stand 'bare' and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do" Heb 4:13.
(onto Page 4)
3. On Predestination. "We don't have true 'Free will' to choose God". Again, I can't disagree with you on this count: after all, He drew us, He convicted us, & He saved us - nothing of ourselves there. That is why, when I hear someone say that he has 'considered many religions & then decided on Christianity', I tremble as to his actual spiritual condition.
"So how can we say men will be subject to eternal damnation when God didn't allow them to believe in him?" So here we have the problem: put another way, a person wants to repent of his many sins & call upon Jesus, but just cannot be saved because God has not predestined him to be His child. Or, would a person who is NOT predestined to salvation, even want to repent & call upon His Name? So such a person, not predestined, by all accounts should not be punished in hell fire as that would be unjust & 'unloving' of God to do. However, could we say that this Omniscient God predestines some to eternal damnation because of their future lives of wilful disobedience & rejection of the Gospel? That is, predestination is contingent upon the response of that carnal nature, of which the Creator God could only know? Jer 1:5; Ps 139:13-16. Each one of us is still responsible for the quality of our lives (predestined or not). God doesn't judge us for what He already knows, but what we do. Our evil acts from reprobate minds then justify our eternal damnation.
(onto Page 3)
John, thank you for your detailed reply & for taking the time to do so. It was very helpful to understand more fully your thoughts on the matters raised with the abundance of Scriptures you cited.
1. I'm in full agreement with the 'two natures': I understand them as you do. The statement you made on your first page, "Not only (is) this a spiritual fire but this fire is essential to being saved, which I believe we are not saved until we have endured to the end", would be the one I would question. I believe that our perseverance till the end IS necessary & is proof of the reality of our salvation, however, we can know NOW that we are saved & that our salvation is not left in the balance until our last breath (e.g. 1 Jn 5:11-13; Jn 5:24, 6:53,54; Rom 6:23). These verses & others show that Eternal Life for those in Christ is their blessed possession NOW & not contingent till the end. However, of course, that we endure to the end is proof of the reality of that salvation. Having worked amongst Muslims, I'm well aware of their uncertainty of salvation until their final stand before Allah. They can do all their required acts & more, but there's no certainty as their works hang in the balance (i.e. with the two angels over each shoulder). For the believer, our salvation is made sure & secure through Christ's death alone & faith in that finished work: so we can be sure now, our joy can be full now & our fight against the dark forces always end in victory. And the final proof of all that is that we finish the course fully ( 2 Tim 4:7).
2. Meaning of 'aion'. I've checked your references & concur with the meaning there of 'eternal' (age lasting/age long). I see no problem with their use whether in 'punishment' or in 'life' in those verses.
(onto Page 2)
If they had free will, they could tell God, "I hate you, I'm not going to bow, your going damn me to torture forever anyway"
Also, if a sinner who did not follow Christ in this life, if he begs for forgiveness and mercy, do you think God has a limitation on his mercy? The picture God you paint is not All Love, and All Merciful, and All Powerful.
Christs death, was more effective than Adam's sin.
Christ is the redeemer of ALL Men, not just believers.
I hope none of this comes off as condescending, that is not my intention.
I only wish to glorify God in his unlimited Love, Mercy and Power
Feel free to ask me anymore questions,
Hebrews 12:28-29
Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe. For our God is a consuming fire.
1 Peter 1:7
So that the tested genuineness of your faith-more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire-may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Daniel 7:9-10
"As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened
This verse refers to a "stream of fire" that came from before God's fiery throne. Is it possible this stream comes from or leads to a..Lake of fire?
In the verses I've provided the scripture clearly teaches us that we are tested by fire, and saved through fire. Jesus' sacrafice on the cross purchased all men, paid for all their sin, and according to the scripture, missing the mark is to sin, and if Jesus meant to save all men, and fails to fufil that promise, he missed the mark, and that would make God a sinner. The whole world is in His hands, not mens hands.
Ephesians 1:10
As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Revelation 5:13
And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
Every creature; that includes everyone on earth throughout all time, there are no exceptions.
If the word aion was translated to eternity every time its used in scripture, it might sound like it works for some verses, but if you consistantly translate it eternity there are many verses that would make no sense.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away to eternal (age lasting) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (age lasting) life
1 Corinthians 3:18
If anyone thinks he is wise in this eternity (age), let him become a fool so that he may become wise.
3. We don't have true 'Free will' to choose God
There is the will of the flesh, and the will of Christ
You either walk by the spirit, or you walk by the flesh.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
So God is the one that allows us to believe in him, we get no credit. We cannot boast that we chose God because we didn't, he chose us. That verse plainly states that.
So how can we say men will be subject to eternal damnation when God didn't allow them to believe in him? God is all loving right? And all powerful, so he has a system in place in which he will purify all men through fire, all will be saved.
God Also hardened Pharaohs heart, which left Pharaoh with no free choice to let the people go. If man had free will; God could not override their will, but he does.
Exodus 4:21
And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
This will be a multi post reply (If this website allows all of them) as there is a lot to unpack with your questions.
It seems there are some principles that need to be established in order for you to understand my position.
1. We have two Natures. There are several names for the two natures all men struggle between.
The new man and the old man, the flesh and the spirit, the carnal mind and the mind of Christ.
Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
God's Law is an expression of his nature, only when walking in the spirit (the new man/nature) can we follow it.
Romans 8:8
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(Which ties into this verse)
Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (This is the non literal fire)
Not only in this a spiritual fire but this fire is essential to being saved, which I believe we are not saved until we have endured to the end.
1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.
Galatians 5:16-17
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Galatians 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
This theme occurs throughout all of scripture.
Post continues...
a. what is the Fire of God you speak of? You said that "it's not a literal fire", but I couldn't think of a Scripture that spoke of the type of fire you mentioned.
b. Rom 14:11. I don't think the word 'forced' to confess & bow is what Christians understand when reading that verse (at least, I don't). I see that at the Coming of Christ & in His Reign on Earth, people will not be forced to do anything. Paul said that since we as believers will all stand before Christ's Judgement Seat & have to give account of ourselves, so will all those who are not believers also have to submit & confess to God about their lives & their rejection of His Christ. So, I see rather that we will all be in a state of judicial submission where our appointed time with the Judge has arrived: some to reigning with Christ & others to everlasting damnation.
c. Which then leads to: "a literal fire to burn forever." Can I assume that you see this fire as an allegory? And what of the other Scriptures that speak of it? Your response, should you wish to give it, will help me understand your position better for discussion.
That doesn't sound like an optional statement. God says he will do it, it will happen. In this age or ages to come.
All men who have lived will go through God's fire in the ages to come to burn away their flesh (sin, old man, old nature) the ones who succeed in this age, are the overcomers, the first born, who make it to the first resurrection, and reign with Christ for 1000 years on the Earth.
That is part of our inheritance.
The fire is not literal, it is the fire of God. For example when we deny our fleshly desires, and hear his voice, and heed it, it hurts. To not get your way, and die to your sinful desires and to take up that cross daily, and standing true to him among pagans and withstanding being mocked for walking with him, that is going through the fire.
How can mainstream Christians reconcile Romans 14:11
for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Do Christians really think sinners will be forced to confess and bow? And when they do God will still throw them in a literal fire to burn forever? How ridiculous is that?
I'm thankful we have a Creator that is ALL Loving, ALL Merciful, and All Powerful.
With those traits combined, I really don't think he will let a soul he has created, to be wasted.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
It was said that the faith was already given once in Jude . And contend for it , no need for Apostles or a new doctrine either . We have it in the NT completely.
It is true a woman should not teach out of her womanhood or femininity. When she teaches, she is preaching/teaching not as a woman but as a member of the body of Christ, one together with other men and women. The womanhood in her should keep silent in church and be subject to her husband but the new creature in her cannot certainly be forbidden to speak the Word. In any case it was women who brought the first news of the resurrection and it was a woman (Anna) who blessed the then baby Jesus, speaking in the temple (the church). Was it not a woman who preached to the whole city and brought the whole of Samaria to Christ in John chapter 4? They later graduated in their belief (v42), after they had come to hear of the Lord first hand but their first instance of belief (v39) was at the testimony of the woman! Yes women were considered property in the Jewish traditions but now Christ has come to redeem them that are under the legalistic tendencies and nitty-gritties of the law that we might receive the adoption of sons and now we are all sons of God by faith!
It would be foolish to be legalistic and petty by clinging to do's and don'ts in taking this verse at its literal value; any saved Spirit filled, baptized believer can speak in church for there is neither male nor female but we are all one in Christ Jesus!
Is there too much being made by some of this particular passage? What is the history of it?
As Christians, there is no male or female when it comes to the things of God. Throughout history God has used women in the church as Pastors, Evangelists, Deacons, Elders, Teachers.
Do we sometimes get all tied up in something we shouldn't even be worrying about? Might it be good to keep in mind that we are living under the freedom, both spiritual and social, that we have in Christ? Did Christ save us so we could be bound to laws, regulations, procedures that limit our ability to proclaim His Gospel?
IMO: Don't let petty, legalistic issues like that bound you up, weigh you down and bundle you up in a confusing mess of do's and don'ts. In Christ there is no male or female. The Gospel can be preached and taught and proclaimed by male, female, donkey or rock. What is important is the proclamation of Christ, not whether your dress is too short, your hair too long, your shoes too bright, your tie is tied wrong, you wear jeans and sandals, you are male, female, child or octogenarian.
Clearly, Paul was addressing pagan customs of the time and people that were steeped in ways of doing things that might not have been beneficial to a group of Christians meeting in homes and other venues. He was establishing order in the congregations. But we are living in the 21st Century and things have, of necessity, changed. And change is OK.
We are called to tell people about Christ, not about rules we must follow if we want to be Christians, that is, Spirit filled followers of Christ.
I, for one, don't really understand 1 Timothy 2:12 in its entirety. And there are other things said we don't fully understand. But "I press on!".
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:20 View whole chapter | See verse in context
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead
Luke 6:46 Jesus said why call me Lord Lord and DO NOT the things which I say --
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God.
from the organization or former pastor. It's always important to know what is God and what is "I". I believe Paul had good reason for this and gave this counsel to Timothy as a young pastor. There are definitely preachers and teachers in the bible like Deborah the prophetess in Judges, Priscilla and Aquila in Acts. Paul was concerned with the women absurbing authority over the man (becoming the pastor or shepherd). Guess what, he was right! In some cases this has happened. Women can not cover the man, but them preaching is not sin.